[08:04] <juliux> @berlin
[08:05] <soren> @schedule berlin
[08:05] <ubotu> Schedule for Europe/Berlin: 17 Jan 15:00: Desktop Team Development | 18 Jan 13:00: MOTU | 23 Jan 21:00: Edubuntu meeting | 23 Jan 23:30: Forum Council | 30 Jan 13:00: Edubuntu meeting
[08:05] <soren> There you go :)
[12:07] <emgent> @now
[12:07] <ubotu> Current time in Etc/UTC: January 17 2008, 12:07:09 - Next meeting: Desktop Team Development in 1 hour 52 minutes
[13:54]  * mvo looks around
[13:58]  * Iuli hides behind mvo
[13:58]  * MacSlow hates Python some more today
[13:59] <MacSlow> everybody needs a hobby :)
[14:01] <Keybuk> ok, let's get going
[14:01] <Keybuk> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/DevelopmentMeeting/2008-01-17
[14:02]  * mvo waves
[14:02] <pitti> hello
[14:03] <Keybuk> I didn't see any agenda items in the activity summaries, did I miss any?
[14:03] <MacSlow> Keybuk, gee... I should provide smaller screenshots... I did not think of them showing up in the report like that :)
[14:03] <Keybuk> MacSlow: heh, that's fine :-)  that's what the report is for
[14:03] <Keybuk> it's great that they do show up
[14:04] <MacSlow> Keybuk, well regarding myself I can only think of the seperate emails regarding conferences I sent you... apart form that... I hate python :)
[14:04] <Keybuk> ok, first up, actions from last week
[14:04] <Keybuk> ACTION: pitti/seb128 to investigate seahorse package size and reduce it so it can be seeded.
[14:04] <Keybuk> how did that go?
[14:05] <pitti> a mere rebuild will chop off 2 MB
[14:05] <seb128> cdbs depends on fdups was not active
[14:05] <pitti> (I fixed cdbs)
[14:05] <seb128> so symlinking magic was not working
[14:05] <MacSlow> Keybuk, I should have added to my report that I started on fixing the issues with upstream rhythmbox(artdisplay) as they are blocking the work on sparkle and upstream is... busy *shrugg*
[14:05] <pitti> remaining issue is to build a shared lib to avoid duplicating lots of code four times in the large binaries
[14:05] <seb128> I've been too busy with GNOME 2.21.5 to investigate if there is a static lib there
[14:06] <Keybuk> pitti: is that code just linking the same source files?
[14:06] <Keybuk> or is it a library already?
[14:06] <pitti> haven't looked yet
[14:06] <Keybuk> ok
[14:06] <seb128> doesn't look like a library from a quick look
[14:06] <seb128> but I didn't really investigate
[14:06] <Keybuk> is seahorse still not seeded and gnome-keyring-manager seeded instead?
[14:06] <seb128> yes
[14:07] <Keybuk> ok; let's add this to the sprint agenda to deal with there
[14:07] <seb128> right
[14:07] <pitti> I can do the seed change today, and we worry about the size reduction a bit later
[14:07] <Keybuk> seb128: my quick examination was that everything was statically linking a libseahorse.a which wasn't installed
[14:07] <MacSlow> hi mpt
[14:07] <mpt> hello, sorry, got to get used to these simultaneous LP and Ubuntu meetings
[14:07] <seb128> pitti: btw speaking about seeding do we need MIR for the things which has been discussed? somebody mailed ubuntu-devel-discuss about those
[14:08] <Keybuk> I think they should have MIR?
[14:08] <seb128> Keybuk: ok, might be, I quickly looked at it during the meeting and not sure now
[14:08] <pitti> seb128: well, we should at least have bugs for them, for the record
[14:08] <pitti> I checked the packages and they were ok
[14:09] <seb128> ok, I'll file bugs later
[14:09] <Keybuk> ok
[14:10] <Keybuk> ACTION: GUADEC and LCA attendance requests
[14:10] <Keybuk> I've received two volunteers for the former and one for the latter
[14:10] <pitti> seb128: cheese already has one, btw (#149275)
[14:10] <seb128> pitti: ok, will look at bugs before sending a duplicate anyway ;-)
[14:10] <seb128> who is volunteer for GUADEC?
[14:10] <Keybuk> GUADEC is 7th-12th July in Istanbul, Turkey
[14:10]  * MacSlow would like to go to GUADEC
[14:11] <Keybuk> LCA is the week immediately after the sprint in Melbourne, Australia
[14:11]  * MacSlow offered to volunteer for LCA, but only if nobody else steps up
[14:11] <Keybuk> MacSlow: indeed, thanks
[14:11] <MacSlow> because it literly on the other side of the globe for me *aechtz*
[14:12] <Keybuk> last chance for LCA volunteers; GUADEC I'd like to have a list by the sprint, so if you'd like to go, please do let me know ASAP so I can decide
[14:12] <MacSlow> don't we have any down-under person closer?
[14:12] <Keybuk> MacSlow: surprisingly not in the distro team
[14:12] <Keybuk> and we're actually sponsors of LCA this year
[14:12] <Mithrandir> Keybuk: beep.  StevenK is distro, but he'll be in portland that week.
[14:12] <MacSlow> Keybuk, any pending hires down-under before LCA? ;)
[14:12] <Keybuk> ah, sorry, yes; he's not there
[14:13] <Keybuk> ok, next topic
[14:13] <Keybuk> Sprint Planning
[14:14] <MacSlow> I would add the still not working browser-by-default for ipod/mpt in rb
[14:14] <Keybuk> https://wiki.canonical.com/DistroTeam/Desktop/HardySprint
[14:15] <MacSlow> I've been in contact with upstream a bit regarding that
[14:15] <Keybuk> please add any agenda items ASAP
[14:16] <Keybuk> I'm going to be busy all-day wednesday, as the team leads are getting management training
[14:16] <MacSlow> done
[14:16] <Keybuk> and I'll also set some time that week to speak to each of you about your specs and plans for 8.10
[14:16]  * pitti will add "release 6.06.2" to the agenda
[14:16] <Keybuk> pitti: mdz would like a couple of hours of your time to discuss how 6.06.2 has taken up your time
[14:17] <pitti> right, just got the invitation today
[14:17] <Keybuk> ok
[14:17] <Keybuk> next item
[14:18] <Keybuk> usplash
[14:18] <Keybuk> it falls to our team to maintain this, including handling the incoming bugs
[14:18] <Keybuk> I realise that it's slightly out of most of our knowledge
[14:18] <Keybuk> but we need a volunteer to learn how to maintain it and be the bug contact
[14:18]  * pitti hides, being TIL
[14:18] <Keybuk> til?
[14:18] <MacSlow> Keybuk, Matthew Garret wrote that initally?
[14:19] <Keybuk> MacSlow: yeah, and I've hacked on it too
[14:19] <pitti> Keybuk: touched-it-last (for some sponsoring of a contributor)
[14:19] <Keybuk> most of the hard problems are svgalib/bogl problems
[14:19] <pitti> yeah, took me some hours to fix that 'unreadable text' problem right before gutsy release
[14:19] <pitti> bit hairy code
[14:19] <MacSlow> Keybuk, well I know that some fine day we will hopefully be albe to kick it as we'll have Xorg up all the way from boot-up... if I recall some Xorg-folks correctly.
[14:20] <mpt> yay
[14:20] <pitti> X in initramfs?
[14:20] <MacSlow> but that certainly does not help current usplash maintainance I know
[14:20] <MacSlow> pitti, yes
[14:20] <MacSlow> pitti, I would have tried that already myself... but I'm totally filled with stuff
[14:21] <MacSlow> pitti, I talked very briefly with Kristian Hoegsberg about this some time last year
[14:21] <Keybuk> pitti, MacSlow: could you both look through it at the sprint?
[14:21] <MacSlow> to be truely solid it will need kenrel-level video-mode switchign or something... don't fully recall all details
[14:22] <MacSlow> *sigh* I try :)
[14:22] <Keybuk> ok, please add yourselves as bug contacts
[14:22] <pitti> ugh, ok
[14:22] <MacSlow> würg³ :)
[14:22] <MacSlow> ok
[14:23] <pitti> MacSlow: 85 bugs to triage for each of us :)
[14:24] <Keybuk> thanks
[14:24] <Keybuk> did anyone see anything of note in the activity reports they want to bring up?
[14:24] <MacSlow> pitti, added bullet-point about usplash to sprint-agend for both of us
[14:24] <mvo> I'm looking for someone who can help me understanding the glx/dri/X interface
[14:25] <MacSlow> mvo, Kristian Hoegsberg... although RedHat... but seriously he knows towns about it
[14:25] <MacSlow> mvo, or Micheal Dänzer from TungstenGraphics
[14:25] <MacSlow> mvo, I cannot (yet) offer myself
[14:26] <MacSlow> but that'll change hopefully
[14:26] <MacSlow> mvo, I know some of GLX and X... but next to nothing about DRI
[14:26] <mvo> thanks, michael dänzer sounds like a good idea
[14:26] <mvo> do you know if he is around in irc?
[14:27] <MacSlow> mvo, you'll find Michael Dänzer on #xorg-devel on FreeNode-IRC under the nick MrCooper
[14:27] <mvo> aha, thanks
[14:27] <MacSlow> mvo, Kristian Hoegsberg is there too as krh... just in case
[14:28] <pitti> just for sprint planning, does anyone have a laptop with: nvidia graphics, ati graphics, winsoftmodem, broadcom wifi?
[14:28] <seb128> none of those
[14:28] <pitti> I'd like to do some driver-manager testing
[14:28] <mvo> I have one with ati
[14:28] <mvo> (fglrx)
[14:28] <MacSlow> mvo, probably Stephane Marchesin (handle: marcheu) too... he's the main developer of nouveau
[14:28] <pitti> I know a lot of you guys have softmodems (at the last sprint, at least)
[14:28] <Keybuk> pitti: this has a non-working modem
[14:28] <pitti> unfortunately my dell doesn't have one
[14:29] <MacSlow> pitti, nope... all intel here
[14:29] <pitti> well, at least not one that is compatible with sl-modem-daemon
[14:29] <pitti> cjwatson has a bcm43xx, AFAIR
[14:29] <tedg> I have one with nVidia.
[14:29] <pitti> cool, thanks
[14:29]  * MacSlow never used the modem in his laptop
[14:29] <tedg> Which means that for some reason the drop shadows in Compiz are either white or pink...
[14:29] <Keybuk> pitti: you have the entire office laptop supply at your disposal
[14:29] <MacSlow> I don't even know what kind of device it is
[14:29] <cjwatson> yes, I have a Broadcom
[14:29] <Keybuk> Jane loves it when we steal her laptop for testing
[14:30] <Keybuk> ok, Any Other Business?
[14:30] <pitti> Keybuk: ok, I prepare a speech about Totally Rad Hardware Support for getting Jane's :)
[14:30] <seb128> Keybuk: yes
[14:30] <MacSlow> tedg, the decorator doesn't work on your nvidia? Uff!
[14:30] <Keybuk> seb128: go
[14:31] <mvo> tedg: still with the latest compiz?
[14:31] <mvo> tedg: it work on my nvidia card here
[14:31] <seb128> Keybuk: rather just a note, I looked at the new gdm again some days ago, there is no way it'll be ready for hardy
[14:31] <seb128> Keybuk: still no graphical greeter, no gdmsetup, no gdmflexiserver, no autologic, no settings migration
[14:31] <Keybuk> MacSlow: this isn't terrible news?
[14:31] <tedg> mvo: Yeah, just checked, seems I have the latest.  Perhaps it's some setting.
[14:32] <MacSlow> tedg, that never had issues here either with the decorator and nvidia
[14:32] <mvo> tedg: we can have a look together on the sprint
[14:32] <tedg> The pink is very feminine -- perhaps we should make "Linux for Ladies" ;)
[14:32] <MacSlow> Keybuk, gl stuff not working on nvidia... that's very grim news for me... I love nvidia for their good GL usually
[14:32] <Keybuk> MacSlow: I mean about gdm
[14:33] <seb128> Keybuk: and it get almost no testing, redhat has a version from december, mandriva and suse have not updated yet apparently and debian and ubuntu don't have it either
[14:34] <MacSlow> Keybuk, well the new gdm (face-browser) is targetted for later anyway
[14:34] <Keybuk> *nods*
[14:34] <Keybuk> it's on my 8.10 list ;)
[14:34] <seb128> that's really the bad cycle for a lts :/
[14:34] <seb128> nautilus is really tricky
[14:35] <MacSlow> Keybuk, that's were I want to have it in fully polished state too... with all the nice MeMaker and cheese integration mentioned in the spec
[14:36] <seb128> everybody is going with the rewrittal for GNOME 2.22 but that will a though update
[14:36] <tedg> Does anyone else have their file dialogs taking a long time to load?  10-20 seconds long?
[14:36] <seb128> no
[14:36] <tedg> I think it might because I have a bunch of SSH shares that are in my bookmarks bar.
[14:36] <seb128> at least not me and we got no bug about it
[14:36] <MacSlow> tedg, gee... no!
[14:37] <MacSlow> tedg, only have to ssh-shares
[14:37] <seb128> it should not try to do anything on those it you don't try to access a share
[14:37] <tedg> Okay, I'll look into it further, using files causes compiz desaturate my apps.
[14:38] <Keybuk> ok
[14:38] <tedg> So, if you get an attachment from me, you know the pain it caused ;)
[14:38] <Keybuk> any other any other business? :)
[14:39] <MacSlow> pitti, I added the usplash thing higher up in the list
[14:39] <Keybuk> ok, sorry, I missed an agenda item
[14:39] <MacSlow> pitti, I deleted the entry at the bottom (which I assume you added)
[14:39] <Keybuk>  * Sebastien Bacher (seb128)
[14:39] <Keybuk> err
[14:39] <Keybuk>  * Keep tracker enabled for LTS?
[14:39] <Keybuk> mdz has raised the question of whether we should keep tracker enabled for the LTS
[14:39] <pitti> MacSlow: I didn't
[14:39] <Keybuk> given that it's "causing problems"
[14:39] <seb128> what problems?
[14:39] <MacSlow> pitti, maybe it was Keybuk
[14:40] <seb128> did we get lot of bad reviews or comments due to it on gutsy?
[14:40] <MacSlow> what tracker-problems?
[14:40] <Keybuk> seb128: performance problems, using lots of memory/cpu/io, etc.
[14:40] <seb128> I've not read a lot of user complains recently
[14:40] <MacSlow> I it works as expect here
[14:40] <seb128> well, now it has an icon which makes easy to know what is going on etc
[14:41] <MacSlow> I only don't like the tracker-search-reasult dialog
[14:41] <MacSlow> not looking very HIG-compliant
[14:41] <Keybuk> let's get some more feedback then
[14:41] <pitti> hm, that icon is annoying IMHO
[14:41] <seb128> pitti: the icon or the libnotify excessive use?
[14:41] <Keybuk> if you're happy that user feedback is good, it may be that mdz is having other problems
[14:41] <seb128> I've no issue with the icon, I don't like the bubbles though
[14:41] <pitti> seb128: both actually
[14:42] <seb128> Keybuk: not really, I was rather asking
[14:42] <pitti> we already have deskbar applet, no need for yet another icon
[14:42] <mdz> Keybuk: the last time you were here, you were killall'ing trackerd too
[14:42] <seb128> I don't know we have anybody looking closely to tracker bugs, etc
[14:42] <seb128> I've to admin it works correctly on my new laptop where I've copied things progressively
[14:42] <pitti> upstream himself looks after them (or had done so in gutsy, at least)
[14:42]  * mpt didn't realize Tracker had any UI outside of Deskbar :-)
[14:42] <seb128> I've stopped it on my desktop because the initial hit is really annoying
[14:42] <mdz> it seems to churn every time my desktop is idle, even though I am not adding a lot of new data to index
[14:42] <MacSlow> seb128, you mean the cat-claw with the magnifier-glas?
[14:43] <Keybuk> mdz: it might be worth checking whether you have a bug that affected people that upgraded through gutsy development
[14:43] <mdz> it has always seemed odd to me that deskbar doesn't search immediately
[14:43] <seb128> mdz: maybe you get lot of mails to index?
[14:43] <Keybuk> where it would continually index
[14:43] <mdz> you enter your search terms, and it presents you with a list of options for where you'd like to search
[14:43] <mdz> so it's always a two-step process to actually find anything
[14:44] <MacSlow> mpt, it does... the way search results are presented... btw... Deskbar only adds one entry for actually calling the tracker-search tool
[14:44] <Keybuk> I thought we switched to the live results?
[14:44] <mpt> yeah, that's a bit lame
[14:44] <mdz> so my thoughts on tracker based on my personal experience are that it incurs a high overhead for the user without exposing much in the way of interesting functionality
[14:44] <MacSlow> *cough*
[14:44]  * MacSlow is still using Gutsy here on his desktop
[14:44] <MacSlow> *cough.cough*
[14:45]  * mdz glares at MacSlow
[14:45]  * MacSlow goes and sits in the corner :)
[14:45] <Keybuk> MacSlow: so am I
[14:45] <mdz> Keybuk: live results for a decent subset of the available search backends would make deskbar a lot more useful
[14:45] <Keybuk> mdz: when did you last reinstall your desktop?
[14:45] <seb128> mdz: not sure how useful users find it, maybe we should start a discussion on ubuntu-devel-discuss about that?
[14:45] <MacSlow> mdz, indeed
[14:45] <mdz> Keybuk: never
[14:45] <Keybuk> mdz: it really sounds like you have a lot of old settings
[14:45]  * tedg wants MacSlow to enjoy pink drop shadows too :)
[14:45] <Keybuk> I'm pretty sure the deskbar defaults are live search now
[14:46] <seb128> Keybuk: we actived that in gutsy yes
[14:46] <mdz> I only ever installed this machine once
[14:46] <MacSlow> tedg, I can set the color of the drop-shaodws to pink :)
[14:46] <Keybuk> so you must have installed deskbar while the default was non-live search
[14:46] <mdz> and I didn't change the preferences afaik
[14:46] <mdz> Keybuk: so? if the default changed, surely I should get the new default
[14:46] <mpt> As the user base increases, an increasing proportion of users will have old settings
[14:46] <Keybuk> mdz: no... we've never done that
[14:47] <mdz> ok, so turning on live search makes it do something, but still doesn't show me the results
[14:47] <Keybuk> because we have no way of telling whether you didn't change the default because you were happy with it or not
[14:47] <seb128> Keybuk: well, if there is no user settings the default system changes are used usually
[14:47] <mdz> the only part of the window which is visible says "search yahoo, search amazon, etc."
[14:47] <mdz> the tracker results are way at the bottom where they can't be seen
[14:47] <Keybuk> seb128: yeah, but opening a preferences window is enough to copy them
[14:47] <seb128> mdz: right, that's the normal situation and I agree it's buggy
[14:47] <Keybuk> mdz: that's the ordering in the window where you enabled the live search
[14:47] <Keybuk> ok, let's look at the usability of this at the sprint
[14:48] <mdz> I think that if users aren't seeing the benefits of tracker, we should disable the indexing by default so that they aren't paying the price anyway
[14:48] <seb128> mdz: right, how do we figure? start a discussion on the lists?
[14:48] <Keybuk> mdz: shouldn't we first see if we can make sure that users see the benefits?
[14:48] <mdz> exposing the functionality better would of course be superior, but that may not be feasible
[14:48] <mdz> Keybuk: my statement doesn't preclude that
[14:48] <pitti> like, disable it by default and enable it once the user tries the first search?
[14:49] <mdz> seb128: that would be a good start
[14:49] <mdz> seb128: another good idea would be to review it as a user experience
[14:49] <mdz> and do basic usability testing
[14:49] <MacSlow> tedg, actually I did that once... very early on... http://macslow.thepimp.net/shots/colored-drop-shadows.png wrote a patch for compiz to do that :)
[14:49] <seb128> we can do that next week maybe
[14:49] <MacSlow> tedg, intentially :)
[14:49] <mdz> deskbar looks pretty easy to customize
[14:49] <seb128> right
[14:50] <mdz> so if deskbar became a great interface to tracker, it would probably be worthwhile
[14:50] <mpt> I'll put it on the agenda then
[14:50] <seb128> ok, let's work on making that better
[14:50] <mpt> MacSlow, your windows are bleeding
[14:50] <Keybuk> as are my eyes
[14:50] <MacSlow> mpt, jimmac wante to "kill" me for posting such a screenshot :)
[14:51] <MacSlow> I just wanted to show that one could now color the drop-shadow
[14:51] <MacSlow> thus I used an extreme color
[14:51] <ogra> MacSlow, so you could also whiten it on black BG :)
[14:51] <MacSlow> ogra, indeed
[14:51] <ogra> cool hack
[14:52] <MacSlow> ogra, you can to that today still
[14:52] <tedg> MacSlow: Can you make the drop shadows pulse with the music out of RB? ;)
[14:52] <ogra> haha
[14:52] <MacSlow> tedg, now that would be totally useless :)
[14:52] <ogra> but sexy
[14:52]  * MacSlow wants client-side drawn window-decorations
[14:53] <emgent> @now
[14:53] <seb128> Keybuk: does the decision to use the new nautilus in hardy or not has an impact on your team work? We discussed that during the platform meeting yesterday and that's really tricky
[14:53] <MacSlow> that would make a lot of cool things possible and save artist a lot of headaches
[14:54] <tedg> seb128: Would that mean no GTK+ and gio, or just nautilus?
[14:54] <seb128> tedg: GTK+ has no change for that
[14:54] <seb128> gio is already in the hardy glib
[14:54] <seb128> gvfs should be promoted that's no issue
[14:54] <seb128> libgnomeui has a gio fileselector variant now
[14:54] <seb128> all that is alright
[14:55] <seb128> what is tricky is nautilus
[14:55] <seb128> either we keep the old non maintained code using gnome-vfs
[14:56] <seb128> or we switch to the new one, what all the other distros seem to do, but that's new code and everything is not ready yet
[14:56] <MacSlow> this LTS has a very unfortunate timing I think considering the changes going on in GNOME
[14:56] <seb128> right
[14:56] <seb128> the issue is that upstream is going with it and integrating other desktop component to use gvfs now
[14:57] <MacSlow> ?
[14:57] <MacSlow> isn't gio meant to replace gvfs?
[14:57] <seb128> MacSlow: things like the bookmarks and gnome-panel places, they will list gvfs shares now
[14:57] <tedg> gvfs replaces gnome-vfs.  gio wraps gvfs.
[14:57] <MacSlow> still some parts in gnome write new code using a soon deprecated API?
[14:57] <Keybuk> seb128: I don't think we're depending on it
[14:58] <MacSlow> tedg, ah ok
[14:58] <MacSlow> tedg, thanks for the heads up
[14:58] <seb128> MacSlow: alright
[14:58] <seb128> Keybuk: alright, rather
[14:58] <tedg> gio is the API in GTK+, which allows for backends, one of which is gvfs.
[14:59] <seb128> gio is in glib rather
[15:01] <Keybuk> ok, I have another meeting now
[15:03] <pitti> seems the remainders could be discussed in #ubuntu-desktop?
[15:03] <MacSlow> hi dholbach
[15:04] <seb128> pitti: right, not a lot to discuss still though, need testing rather
[15:04]  * mvo waves
[15:05] <MacSlow> pitti, seb128: Am I needed for the remaining issue to be discussed?
[15:05] <seb128> MacSlow: there is no issue to discuss so no, thanks ;-)
[15:05] <pitti> the stuff above is over my head, too
[15:05] <pitti> s/over/above/, I think
[15:05] <MacSlow> ok, I'll return to rb-fixing then
[15:06] <MacSlow> so long
[19:47] <gcleric> bmon
[19:49] <gcleric> exit
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[22:01] <seele> oops mt