[09:00] <stgraber> @schedule Zurich
[09:00] <ubotu> Schedule for Europe/Zurich: 23 Jan 21:00: Edubuntu meeting | 23 Jan 23:30: Forum Council | 24 Jan 00:00: Kubuntu Developers | 30 Jan 13:00: Edubuntu meeting | 01 Feb 21:00: MOTU
[14:52] <Hobbsee> @schedule sydney
[14:52] <ubotu> Schedule for Australia/Sydney: 24 Jan 07:00: Edubuntu meeting | 24 Jan 09:30: Forum Council | 24 Jan 10:00: Kubuntu Developers | 30 Jan 23:00: Edubuntu meeting | 02 Feb 07:00: MOTU
[15:29] <bmk789> @schedule
[15:29] <ubotu> Schedule for Etc/UTC: 23 Jan 20:00: Edubuntu meeting | 23 Jan 22:30: Forum Council | 23 Jan 23:00: Kubuntu Developers | 30 Jan 12:00: Edubuntu meeting | 01 Feb 20:00: MOTU
[15:29] <bmk789> @schedule EST
[15:29] <ubotu> Schedule for EST: 23 Jan 15:00: Edubuntu meeting | 23 Jan 17:30: Forum Council | 23 Jan 18:00: Kubuntu Developers | 30 Jan 07:00: Edubuntu meeting | 01 Feb 15:00: MOTU
[15:29] <emgent> @now
[15:30] <ubotu> Current time in Etc/UTC: January 23 2008, 15:30:03 - Next meeting: Edubuntu meeting in 4 hours 29 minutes
[18:39] <Contessa> ok ..when is 20.00 UTC ?
[18:39] <stgraber> @time
[18:39] <ubotu> Current time in Etc/UTC: January 23 2008, 18:39:17 - Next meeting: Edubuntu meeting in 1 hour 20 minutes
[18:39] <Contessa> ok
[18:39] <Contessa> ty
[18:39] <stgraber> np
[18:40] <Contessa> I want to make a suggestion ... buts its not easy
[18:42] <zoom> proceed
[18:43] <Contessa> put Rosegarden into Edubuntu
[18:52] <zoom> :)
[20:01] <RichEd> hi ... who's around for the edubuntu meeting ?
[20:02] <stgraber> yep
[20:02] <RichEd> hi stgraber
[20:02] <stgraber> hi RichEd. How are you ?
[20:02] <LaserJock> oh, hi
[20:02] <RichEd> stgraber: well thanks & yourself ?
[20:03] <RichEd> hi pygi
[20:03] <stgraber> RichEd: fine, lot of things to do (Looks like it's deadlines time :))
[20:03] <pygi> heya RichEd
[20:03] <RichEd> just so you all are aware: "ogra is in London at the distro sprint ... so we'll not have any tech news from him"
[20:04] <RichEd> so who wants to give us some tech news from their side
[20:04] <RichEd> stgraber: italc ?
[20:04] <stgraber> no good news from italc, looks like we have some weird bugs (network related) which are hard to fix
[20:04] <stgraber> ogra said he'd have a look after the sprint
[20:04] <stgraber> but I really hate that kind of random/arch-specific bugs ...
[20:05] <stgraber> so when iTalc works, it works fine and is ready for Edubuntu (I have the ltsp scripts ready here too)
[20:06] <RichEd> stgraber: well let's hope ogra can help
[20:06] <stgraber> yes ...
[20:06] <LaserJock> today I dropped rasmol (chemistry app) from the seeds
[20:06] <RichEd> do i need to poke him for you, or will you 2 get it sorted ?
[20:06] <stgraber> I'll poke him once he's back from London
[20:07] <LaserJock> it seems that dynamic menus is still stalled on figuring out a way to edit the menus
[20:08] <RichEd> LaserJock: yeah ... ogra said that it could be done manually without a GUI but he said he would not recommend it
[20:08] <stgraber> LaserJock: Was it about improving alacarte to support them or create a new GUI for it ?
[20:08] <LaserJock> well, ogra seems to not to want to create a separate GUI
[20:09] <LaserJock> but I can't see how it'd be possible to do it without doing big changes upstream
[20:09] <RichEd> so where to from here ? how do we move forward on this
[20:09] <LaserJock> the problem is that just editing the menu is not enough
[20:09] <LaserJock> I can call alacarte to edit the menu
[20:09] <LaserJock> but it's kinda hackish
[20:10] <LaserJock> and stuff has to be moved around after alacarte is done
[20:11] <LaserJock> I honestly wonder if this just needs to be done by Gnome
[20:11] <RichEd> stepping back ... there "is work needed on the front end" ... how do we proceed with that ... not the details
[20:11] <RichEd> i presume you do not want to tackle it ?
[20:12] <RichEd> and if not, is there anyone we can get to manage that ? like if it needs to be done by Gnome, how do we go about speaking to "them"
[20:13] <LaserJock> well
[20:13] <LaserJock> ogra didn't seem to want to do a front-end
[20:13] <LaserJock> that it should be handled directly through alacarte
[20:13] <RichEd> okay ... so who looks after alacarte ?
[20:14] <LaserJock> well, kinda nobody, but Amaranth is the author
[20:14] <LaserJock> I'm not sure how much he wants to hack on it anymore
[20:15] <LaserJock> at least this amount
[20:16] <LaserJock> it might be better to re-evaluate what are goals are with the dynamic menus and see what users want to get out and what would need to be done
[20:17] <LaserJock> I've done sort of a "proof-of-concept" that we can do group-driven menus, but I'm not sure if it's really the kind of thing users are looking for
[20:17] <LaserJock> like, is maybe sabayon a better solution?
[20:17] <LaserJock> where you're creating whole "profiles" rather than just different menus
[20:18] <RichEd> does ogra have a good reason to use alacarte ?
[20:18] <LaserJock> because it's the official gnome menu editor
[20:18] <LaserJock> it's an existing app
[20:19] <LaserJock> but it was designed to edit user menus
[20:19] <RichEd> so do you have any good reason *not* to go with alacarte ?
[20:19] <LaserJock> well, it's not so much of whether to use alacarte or not
[20:19] <RichEd> because if that is the official supported way to go, then let's go down that road
[20:19] <LaserJock> but rather to do everything we need within alacarte
[20:19] <RichEd> e.g. would Amaranth be able to suggest a resource ?
[20:19] <LaserJock> or to do a "wrapper" around alacarte
[20:21] <LaserJock> either way it's gonna be some work
[20:21] <LaserJock> a wrapper would probably take ogra no time
[20:21] <LaserJock> but it's still work
[20:23] <RichEd> LaserJock: the point i am trying to get to is to if we can define what work needs to be done on what, we can then start to look for the resource
[20:23] <LaserJock> I'll send an email to -devel to start discussion so we can get some feedback
[20:23] <LaserJock> RichEd: that's pretty much what I'm saying as well
[20:23] <RichEd> i assume there is some kind of "lose community" around alacarte ... more than just amaranth ?
[20:23] <RichEd> *loose
[20:23] <LaserJock> I don't think so
[20:24] <LaserJock> I could be wrong but I think it's just "there"
[20:24] <LaserJock> I think Gnome devs will fix bugs, but as far as adding new features I don't know that we'd get much
[20:24] <LaserJock> but I could be wrong, I haven't asked
[20:25] <RichEd> well "Gnome devs" may have access to or knowledge of people who *may* want to help
[20:25] <RichEd> so can we get a request going at least ?
[20:25] <LaserJock> well, like I said, I think we need to maybe evaluate/discuss if that's what we want to do first
[20:26] <LaserJock> but I'm thinking that dynamic menuing is best handled upstream as much as possible
[20:26] <RichEd> okay ... so where upsteam ? who ?
[20:26] <LaserJock> so a "heah, this is what we'd like to do, anybody interested or got any suggestions?" to Gnome
[20:27] <LaserJock> broadly Gnome
[20:27] <RichEd> LaserJock: can't hurt can it ?
[20:27] <LaserJock> seb128 might have some good idea
[20:27] <RichEd> a mail and a chat in their channel
[20:27] <RichEd> so give me a little speclet via email, and i'll ping seb128 in canonical tomorrow
[20:30] <LaserJock> I've got another little thing but it's art related
[20:30] <LaserJock> so if you want to move on
[20:31] <RichEd> anyone else with tech ?
[20:31] <RichEd> otherwise LaserJock can move onto the art ...
[20:32] <RichEd> go for it LaserJock
[20:33] <LaserJock> well
[20:34] <LaserJock> there is a new project on Launchpad
[20:34] <LaserJock> called Ubuntoon
[20:34] <LaserJock> it's goal is to make an Ubuntu-ized version of Gartoon/GNUtoon icons
[20:34] <LaserJock> https://edge.launchpad.net/ubuntoon
[20:35]  * RichEd loads ...
[20:35] <LaserJock> I was able to adapt the Gartoon packaging and got a working package done
[20:35] <LaserJock> I think it might be worth considering using these icons for Hardy
[20:36] <stgraber> How complete is the iconset ?
[20:36] <LaserJock> much more complete than Gartoon
[20:36] <LaserJock> which is one of the issues I think in the past
[20:37] <LaserJock> the author is also fairly active and *buntu-centric
[20:37] <LaserJock> so if we need icons we maybe have somebody to go to
[20:38] <RichEd> well it would be nice to have a new! look & feel for 8.04 since it is LTS it will be around for a whiler
[20:38] <RichEd> *while
[20:39] <LaserJock> long-term Cory Kontros (_MMA_) is looking at "freshening" up the edubuntu artwork packaging
[20:39] <stgraber> yes especially if it's more complete than the previous one
[20:39] <LaserJock> he created https://edge.launchpad.net/edubuntu-look
[20:39] <LaserJock> and made the edubuntu-artwork LP team driver
[20:39] <LaserJock> so there is a bzr branch that holds the artwork
[20:40] <LaserJock> I'm not sure the whole thing would be ready for Hardy unless some people want to pitch in as Cory is the Ubuntu Studio lead
[20:40] <LaserJock> but it's there anyway
[20:41] <_MMA_> yo :P
[20:41] <stgraber> hi _MMA_
[20:41] <LaserJock> ah, there he is now :-)
[20:41] <LaserJock> _MMA_: I was just telling everybody about edubuntu-look and ubuntoon
[20:42] <RichEd> LaserJock: so at the risk of being repetitive ;) how do we proceed
[20:42] <_MMA_> I meant to be here. I watching a dtrace Google vid. :P
[20:42] <LaserJock> RichEd: well, I'd like to get ogra's opinion, but personally I think we can just finish the package, get it in Universe quickly and then do a MIR to get it into Main if it's Hardy ready
[20:43] <LaserJock> I think the icons are basically ready, with the exception of maybe wanting to get .pngs (there are only .svgs right now)
[20:43]  * _MMA_ wants to mention that his effort is casual for now but if help comes can give edubuntu-look and Ubuntoon more love.
[20:44] <RichEd> and are there people to help complete it in time ?
[20:44] <_MMA_> LaserJock: Correct. The guy doing all the work wanted to do all that. But, are useful as is.
[20:44] <stgraber> Did you contact ubuntu-art ?
[20:45] <stgraber> We had some of them work on some icons/logos for the QA Website with impressive speed and quality
[20:45] <LaserJock> stgraber: there was a thread about Edubuntu artwork in general
[20:45] <stgraber> ok
[20:45] <LaserJock> not yet about the icons in particular
[20:45] <LaserJock> a couple of Ubuntu-art people joined ~edubuntu-artwork
[20:45] <LaserJock> which I cleaned out the other day
[20:46] <stgraber> As RichEd said, LTS will be there for years so we should have the icons turned on as soon as possible (even if the iconset is not complete) so people can have a look and give us some feedback
[20:47] <LaserJock> right
[20:47] <RichEd> LaserJock: can we get a work plan set up to help get it done in time ?
[20:47] <LaserJock> well, I think getting the icons uploaded to Universe ASAP would be good
[20:47] <LaserJock> RichEd: yeah
[20:48] <LaserJock> let me write some emails to -devel, but I *want* people to respond :-)
[20:48] <_MMA_> Besides Jordan, who has built and used 'em?
[20:48] <LaserJock> nobody that I know
[20:48] <LaserJock> of
[20:49] <stgraber> LaserJock: yes, then once the package is in universe we can ask for feedback (edubuntu-users ?), then if it gets good feedback do the MIR and turn it on by default
[20:49] <LaserJock> I can throw up some quick package on a ~ubuntu-artwork PPA
[20:49] <_MMA_> stgraber: The set is pretty complete. Its just that all SVG sets can take a little more to render the icons.
[20:49] <_MMA_> So PNGs are used also.
[20:49] <LaserJock> I think we can get pngs before Hardy is out though
[20:49] <_MMA_> Thats what upstream wants to add.
[20:50] <_MMA_> LaserJock: Its not just a simple matter of converting the SVGs to PNG. Some icons dont look correct when scaled down very small.
[20:50] <stgraber> _MMA_: can't the .png just be generated from the .svg when building the package ?
[20:50] <_MMA_> 22x22 and below usually.
[20:50] <stgraber> hehe, you answered the second before I posted the question :)
[20:51] <LaserJock> _MMA_: yeah, but we should be able to get it mostly done by Hardy is out no?
[20:51] <_MMA_> Well I havnt received a email back from upstream yet. I emailed him after we set up the Project.
[20:52] <_MMA_> The set as is needs testing.
[20:52] <_MMA_> He told me there are some Evolution issues.
[20:52] <LaserJock> well
[20:52] <_MMA_> Also something tied to needed .pngs.
[20:52] <LaserJock> in any case, first step is to get it into Universe
[20:52] <_MMA_> *needing.
[20:52] <LaserJock> let people test it out
[20:52] <LaserJock> then we can decide whether default or not
[20:53] <_MMA_> Honestly I dont feel its ready for all that.
[20:53] <stgraber> I can give it a try as soon as it's in universe or a clean PPA
[20:53] <stgraber> ok, then the group's PPA
[20:53] <_MMA_> I wouldnt put it in Universe till the pngs are there.
[20:54] <LaserJock> _MMA_: ok, well how about putting a package up on ~edubuntu-artwork PPA?
[20:54] <_MMA_> Awesome.
[20:54] <stgraber> LaserJock: when is the universe new package freeze ? (same time as FF ?)
[20:54] <soren> stgraber: Yes.
[20:54] <LaserJock> stgraber: yep
[20:55] <_MMA_> LaserJock: If you can rename your branch to "ubuntu" and set the driver to the edubuntu-art team that would be great. Or another appropriate team.
[20:56] <LaserJock> _MMA_: did you push that renaming of that python icon?
[20:56] <LaserJock> anyway, that's some artwork stuff
[20:56] <_MMA_> I believe so. Lemmie look.
[20:56] <LaserJock> I'll get a package up to PPA and send an email
[20:58] <LaserJock> RichEd: moving on?
[20:58] <RichEd> yep ...
[20:58] <RichEd> websites ?
[20:58] <RichEd> pips1 ?
[20:58] <RichEd> no highvoltage tonight
[20:59] <RichEd> looks like no pips1 either :( last seen in edubuntu saying:
 == edubuntu meeting in #ubuntu-meeting in 3 mins  oh noes :P
[20:59] <RichEd> oops that was pygi not pips1 :/
[21:00] <pygi> what's up with me? :)
[21:00] <RichEd> got you mixed up with pips1 ;)
[21:00] <soren> Er... There's a server team meeting in -21 seconds.
[21:00] <LaserJock> I think I still might try building an HTML version of the Handbook that we can put up on edubuntu.org
[21:00] <soren> (read: now)
[21:00] <RichEd> okay ... we are more or less done
[21:00] <LaserJock> soren: pffft Server Team  ;-)
[21:00] <soren> And there seems to be a Forum Council meeting in half an hour, so I'm afraid we can't just wait for you guys to finish.
[21:01]  * soren kicks LaserJock 
[21:01] <soren> In a nice way, of course :)
[21:01]  * pygi makes soren and LaserJock behave
[21:01] <RichEd> LaserJock / stgraber I'll lurk in @edubuntu for 10 mins if you have more stuff to chat about
[21:01] <RichEd> thanks all from edubuntu
[21:01]  * LaserJock tells soren to take a card
[21:01]  * RichEd makes way for the server team
[21:01] <soren> LaserJock: Talking!
[21:01]  * soren hands LaserJock a card
[21:01]  * ajmitch waves at soren 
[21:02] <sommer> hey all
[21:02] <zul> now serving number 22
[21:02]  * nijaba wonders if that is a penalty card
[21:02] <pips1> RichEd: pong
[21:02] <soren> Hey, ajmitch.
[21:02] <dendrobates> hey
[21:02] <ivoks> looks like new meeting time is great... all the good people are here
[21:02] <zul> hi ajmitch
[21:02]  * mathiaz waves 
[21:02] <zul> hey dendrobates
[21:02] <keescook> whee
[21:03]  * zul dodges toys thrown at him
[21:04] <mathiaz> all right - let's get started then
[21:04] <mathiaz> #startmeeting
[21:04] <MootBot> Meeting started at 21:04. The chair is mathiaz.
[21:04] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[21:04]  * jdstrand waves
[21:04] <mathiaz> Today's agenda is... minimal
[21:04] <mathiaz> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Meeting
[21:05] <mathiaz> anyone wants to add something to the agenda ?
[21:05] <nealmcb> good thing - I have to leave in 25 minutes
[21:05] <nealmcb> :-)
[21:05] <dendrobates> can we get an update on ruby?
[21:05] <dendrobates> if anyone is here, who's working on  it.
[21:06] <mathiaz> dendrobates: I don't think that the people who are working on it are around
[21:07] <pygi> it's always like that :P
[21:07] <leonel> PostgreSQL  maybe released before march  and  hardy feature freeze will be on  feb 14   is there any chance to include  PostgreSQL 8.3  once is released ??
[21:07] <soren> We plan to switch even before then.
[21:07] <mathiaz> leonel: yes - pitti has done it today
[21:07] <jdstrand> it's in debian sid
[21:07] <soren> And by "switch" we mean move 8.2 to universe and 8.3 to main.
[21:08] <soren> and make the postgresql metapackage depend on 8.3.
[21:08] <leonel> Great !
[21:08] <soren> If it turns out that there are major issues (we doubt it, but you never know), we'll switch back.
[21:08] <soren> ..but this way we get a lot of testing done, so I think it's all good.
[21:08] <jdstrand> apparently there has already been a long beta/rc cycle
[21:09] <leonel> if there's any thing to test  just let me know
[21:09] <jdstrand> so hopefully not too much
[21:09] <jdstrand> uh-- in terms of bugs, not testing ;)
[21:09] <mathiaz> leonel: the new package should hit the repository in the next days
[21:09] <leonel> mathiaz: the  RC2 ?
[21:10] <nealmcb> http://developer.postgresql.org/pgdocs/postgres/release-8-3.html
[21:10] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://developer.postgresql.org/pgdocs/postgres/release-8-3.html
[21:10] <jdstrand> rc2 yes
[21:10] <jdstrand> 8.3~rc2-1
[21:10] <jdstrand> we'll merge from sid
[21:11] <mathiaz> so let's move on
[21:11] <mathiaz> [TOPIC] Review ACTION points from previous meeting.
[21:11] <MootBot> New Topic:  Review ACTION points from previous meeting.
[21:11] <mathiaz> The previous minutes can logs can be found here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/Server/20080116
[21:12] <mathiaz> sommer: nijaba: quick status about JeOS ?
[21:12] <nijaba> article was publihed on the 18th
[21:12] <mathiaz> will the tutorial be in the server guide ?
[21:12] <nijaba> http://www.linux-mag.com/id/4829
[21:12] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://www.linux-mag.com/id/4829
[21:12] <sommer> congrats on the article
[21:12] <zul> w00t
[21:12] <sommer> that was cool to see it published
[21:12] <nijaba> soren, 3mo from now, we can do whatever we want with it
[21:13] <nijaba> s/soren/so
[21:13] <mathiaz> nijaba: hum-- so that's after hardy is released
[21:14] <mathiaz> nijaba: well - it's one day before the release
[21:14] <nijaba> soren, that should be fine then
[21:14] <sommer> I love it when a plan comes together :)
[21:14] <mathiaz> nijaba: I don't know as it will be publicly available before
[21:15]  * nijaba hates autocomplete
[21:15] <nijaba> mathiaz: on the we or on file in the cd ?
[21:15] <mathiaz> nijaba: OTOH the server guide won't be on the help.ubuntu.com before that.
[21:15] <mathiaz> nijaba: both
[21:15] <nijaba> what counts is web publication, I think
[21:15] <mathiaz> nijaba: it may be on doc.ubuntu.com, which may present the developpement version of the documentation
[21:16] <mathiaz> nijaba: well - it'd be in a bzr tree
[21:16] <sommer> we can always pull it out of the guide and replace it later
[21:16] <nijaba> bzr is fine
[21:16] <mathiaz> sommer: that has to be done before documentation freeze
[21:16] <mathiaz> sommer: and then it cannot be added just one day before release
[21:16] <nijaba> let's put it there...  we'll see ig the editor complains
[21:17] <sommer> mathiaz: gotcha, may be easier to simply remove the html files after the site is built then
[21:17] <mathiaz> we could always say that it's a developpement version and it hasn't a widespread usage
[21:17]  * nealmcb nods
[21:18] <mathiaz> soren: can you post the link to your blog post about virtualization ?
[21:18] <soren> http://warma.dk/blog/article/86/
[21:18] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://warma.dk/blog/article/86/
[21:18] <dendrobates> I have also asked soren to do a uwn interview about kvm.
[21:19] <boredandblogging> wohoo!
[21:19] <boredandblogging> sorry
[21:19] <mathiaz> soren: so you've opted for a wiki page on w.u.c ?
[21:19] <dendrobates> boredandblogging: can you contact soren about it?
[21:19] <boredandblogging> dendrobates: sure
[21:19] <soren> mathiaz: Ask apposed to?
[21:19] <soren> mathiaz: Er... "As opposed to?"
[21:19] <nealmcb> soren: great cake - such a wife!  http://www.warma.dk/blog/article/85/
[21:20] <soren> nealmcb: It tasted even more awesome than it looked :)
[21:20] <mathiaz> [ACTION] soren will do an uwn interview about virtualization. boredandblogging will get in touch with soren about it.
[21:20] <MootBot> ACTION received:  soren will do an uwn interview about virtualization. boredandblogging will get in touch with soren about it.
[21:20] <nealmcb> Mr Hansen, I'm sorry to inform you that Canonical is forced to let you go due to trademark infringement....
[21:21] <soren> O_O
[21:21] <mathiaz> soren: I thought you would actually document everything in your blog post.
[21:21] <nijaba> nealmcb: that was a piece of cake
[21:21] <soren> mathiaz: Oh. No, no.
[21:21] <mathiaz> soren: anyway - it's great to have something.
[21:21] <soren> mathiaz: That way *I*'d have to do all the work.
[21:21] <soren> Now I can blame everyone else for not improving it.
[21:21]  * sommer has started a virtualization section
[21:21] <mathiaz> sommer: how do you plan to integrate that in the server guide ?
[21:22] <sommer> mathiaz: good question, still working on that part
[21:22] <nijaba> I think we need ubuntu-vm-builder document in there
[21:22] <sommer> I don't have hardware to support kvm so I was going to start with qemu
[21:22] <nealmcb> sommer: it will be good to have it tested both ways
[21:22] <sommer> and document that using the virt-manager etc
[21:23] <sommer> nealmcb: sure, if others can submit docs on specifics to kvm, that'd be awesome
[21:23] <mathiaz> nijaba: that would be based on your JeOS tutorial ?
[21:23] <nealmcb> nijaba: indeed!
[21:23] <nijaba> the tuto would have to be modified a bit, I think
[21:24] <nijaba> but first we need to finish this script
[21:24] <nealmcb> has a name been decided for the script?
[21:24] <mathiaz> So IIUC the virtualization section in the server guide would be based on the KvmVirtManagerEtc wiki page and the JeOS tutorial ?
[21:24] <nijaba> and soren just gave me the missing part so that I can finish the partioning I want to put there
[21:25]  * nealmcb wonders if it should really be in python, but is feeling lazy....
[21:25] <nijaba> why?  bash is good enough...
[21:26] <soren> bash is ok. It just needs to cleaned up. A lot.
[21:26] <zul> with python you can probably hook in the libvirt stuff to make it easier
[21:26] <nealmcb> it would be easier to hook into other stuff (and vice versa) in python
[21:26] <soren> zul: that's *real* easy from bash as well.
[21:26] <zul> soren: :)
[21:26] <soren> zul: virsh provides almost all the same hooks as the python bindings.
[21:27] <mathiaz> nealmcb: any news about the factoid about ebox ?
[21:27] <zul> yeppers...
[21:27] <nealmcb> mathiaz: that was done last week
[21:27] <nealmcb> an hour after the meeting
[21:27] <nealmcb> !ebox
[21:27] <ubotu> ebox is a web-based GUI interface for administering a server. It is designed to work with Ubuntu/Debian style configuration management. See the plans for Hardy at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/EboxSpec
[21:27] <mathiaz> nealmcb: great ! :)
[21:27] <nealmcb> !webmin
[21:27] <ubotu> webmin is no longer supported in Debian and Ubuntu. It is not compatible with the way that Ubuntu packages handle configuration files, and is likely to cause unexpected issues with your system. See !ebox instead.
[21:28] <nealmcb> and I updated the roadmap then also
[21:28]  * nijaba hugs nealmcb
[21:28] <nealmcb> if folks run across other FAQs that we want factoids for, let me know
[21:28] <nealmcb> faqtoids?  sounds ugly...
[21:29] <nealmcb> nijaba: :-)
[21:29] <sommer> heh, kind of like those old dominos commercials
[21:29] <sommer> I think that was "the noid"
[21:29] <nealmcb> As long as I do the hard work on the factoids, I expect you all to do that simple virtualization and documentation stuff :-)
[21:29] <mathiaz> Is there anything else related to last week's meeting ?
[21:30]  * nealmcb has to run now to the dentist :-)
[21:30] <sommer> heard back about the Apache SSL thing
[21:30] <zul> just the xen roadmap addition but i havent got a cahance yet
[21:30] <sommer> they're going to wait for SNI support
[21:30] <mathiaz> [ACTION] zul will add a section in the Roadmap to Xen in hardy.
[21:30] <MootBot> ACTION received:  zul will add a section in the Roadmap to Xen in hardy.
[21:31] <mathiaz> [TOPIC] Review each section of the ServerTeam/Roadmap.
[21:31] <MootBot> New Topic:  Review each section of the ServerTeam/Roadmap.
[21:31] <mathiaz> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Roadmap
[21:31] <mathiaz> sommer: so what's the state of Apache SSL ?
[21:31] <mathiaz> sommer: there are two things - SNI support and default SSL Configuration
[21:32] <nijaba> I just put a spec for SNI support
[21:32] <sommer> http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=267477
[21:32] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=267477
[21:32] <ubotu> Debian bug 267477 in apache2 "ssl: some easy way to set up an ssl server (as apache-ssl package in apache 1)" [Important,Open]
[21:32] <sommer> the reply was they wanted to wait for SSL Server Name Indication support
[21:32]  * nijaba just realized that he opened a duplicate bug in debian...
[21:32] <sommer> I think there was a recent bug about backporting the features as well, but I don't have a link
[21:33] <mathiaz> sommer: yes - there's a bug in LP about SNI support
[21:33] <mathiaz> sommer: It's linked to an upstream bug in apache where there is a patch to enable SNI for apache2.2.
[21:34] <sommer> mathiaz: gotcha, so are we going to wait for SNI as well, or patch our own?
[21:34] <mathiaz> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/apache2/+bug/184131
[21:34] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 184131 in apache2 "Apache 2.2 SNI support" [Unknown,Confirmed]
[21:34] <mathiaz> sommer: I'd have a look at the patch attached to the upstream bug and check if we can integrate it in our package.
[21:35] <mathiaz> http://issues.apache.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=34607
[21:35] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://issues.apache.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=34607
[21:35] <mathiaz> it seems that it has already been applied to the 2.4 branch.
[21:36] <sommer> mathiaz: cool
[21:36] <mathiaz> sommer: if it isn't a too invasive patch, it'd be great.
[21:36] <mathiaz> sommer: the earlier we get it into hardy, the more testing can be done
[21:36] <sommer> anything I can help with?
[21:37]  * sommer is a daily user of apache
[21:37] <mathiaz> one option would be to provide an apache2.2 package in a PPA with the SNI patch applied
[21:37] <mathiaz> and ask users to test it with different browsers
[21:38] <sommer> cool, that would have to be done by the 14th, correct?
[21:38] <mathiaz> sommer: yes.
[21:39] <dendrobates> mathiaz: it is worth trying.
[21:39] <sommer> gotcha
[21:39] <dendrobates> but we need a way defined for users to report results.
[21:39] <zul> wiki
[21:40] <mathiaz> dendrobates: I'd send an email on ubuntu-server and ask people to install it and test it.
[21:40] <sommer> might not want to wait on me for that, I'm not sure how much time I can commit... plus still learning packaging
[21:40] <mathiaz> dendrobates: do you think about having a more extensive test coverage (such as which browser, platform) have been tested ?
[21:41] <dendrobates> mathiaz: that seems like a good idea
[21:42] <mathiaz> dendrobates: I can upload an apache2 package to my PPA, and setup a wiki page to track the testing.
[21:42] <sommer> mathiaz: I have time to help test
[21:43] <dendrobates> mathiaz: ok
[21:43] <mathiaz> sommer: great !
[21:43] <nijaba> ivoks: are you still planning on doing the MIR for drdb?
[21:43] <ivoks> nijaba: i wanted to disccus that...
[21:43] <mathiaz> [ACTION] mathiaz will upload an apache2 package with SNI enabled to his PPA and organise the test plan.
[21:43] <MootBot> ACTION received:  mathiaz will upload an apache2 package with SNI enabled to his PPA and organise the test plan.
[21:44] <ivoks> nijaba: it requires patching the kernel, and the upstream isn't very happy with drbd's patches for kernel
[21:44] <mathiaz> So let's move on to the MIR process
[21:44] <mathiaz> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerPackageReview
[21:45] <ivoks> nijaba: bottom line; there's an effort to move drbd into vanilla kernel, and i doubt we will see drbd in vanilla kernel before 2.6.28
[21:45] <nijaba> ivoks: so that makes a good case for rejecting it
[21:45] <ivoks> nijaba: i'm afraid so, yes...
[21:45] <zul> ivoks: is there a kernel patch for 2.6.24?
[21:45] <mathiaz> ivoks: can you update the wiki page, specify the reason for the rejection ?
[21:46] <ivoks> zul: there is
[21:46] <ivoks> zul: but according to lkml, there's some work to be done before patch is accepted
[21:47] <nijaba> OTOH, I feel quite surprised by bacula and rsnapshot rejection by fabio
[21:47] <zul> if its really important we can try to get it included into linux-ubuntu-modules and wait for upsream
[21:47] <nijaba> could someone have another look at these 2 packages?
[21:47] <mathiaz> ivoks: does the patch require modification to core parts of the kernel ?
[21:48] <ivoks> mathiaz: iirc, not, it's just an addition
[21:48] <ivoks> mathiaz: it would be great to have it... suse includes drbd
[21:48] <mathiaz> ivoks: so it would just go in u-module
[21:48] <mathiaz> zul, soren: how easy it is to get something in ubuntu-modules ?
[21:48] <zul> the i can get the url and submit a patch to the kernel team then
[21:49] <zul> mathiaz: pretty easy ive done it a couple of times before
[21:49] <ivoks> zul: then, i'll come up with a patch, and you could work from there?
[21:49] <zul> ivoks: sure just send me a url or something
[21:50] <ivoks> zul: ok, tomorrow ;)
[21:50] <mathiaz> zul: so even if lkml is not so happy with the state of the patch, the kernel team doesn't care so much ?
[21:50] <mathiaz> [ACTION] ivoks will send a link to the zul for the drbd patch.
[21:50] <MootBot> ACTION received:  ivoks will send a link to the zul for the drbd patch.
[21:51] <zul> well they do care but if its an external module then its easier to get intclude (ie: driver)
[21:51] <zul> ill talk to BenC
[21:51] <zul> if its a large patch then its less likely
[21:52] <mathiaz> [ACTION] zul will contact BenC to see if the drbd module could be included in ubuntu-modules.
[21:52] <MootBot> ACTION received:  zul will contact BenC to see if the drbd module could be included in ubuntu-modules.
[21:52] <mathiaz> There were a couple of package that were rejected (bacula, rsnapshot, arpwatch) by fabio.
[21:53] <mathiaz> What should we do about them
[21:53] <mathiaz> ?
[21:53] <ivoks> i'm surprised for bacula rejection :)
[21:53] <dendrobates> zul: will you review those packages to see if you agree with fabio?
[21:53] <nijaba> could someon have a second look at that?
[21:54] <mathiaz> ivoks: it's not a rejection by the MIR team, but fabio that said it wasn't worth
[21:54] <ivoks> i know...
[21:54] <zul> dendrobates: sure
[21:54] <mathiaz> ivoks: but fabio has a good understanding of the procedure, so the issues he raised will probably be raised by the MIR review team
[21:54] <sommer> by unmaintained upstream that's debian correct? not the individual project?
[21:54] <zul> both..
[21:55] <mathiaz> [ACTION] zul will look into the rejected MIR (bacula, rsnapshot, arpwatch)
[21:55] <sommer> gotcha
[21:55] <MootBot> ACTION received:  zul will look into the rejected MIR (bacula, rsnapshot, arpwatch)
[21:55] <zul> sommer: for example mtx the package was 4 years old in universe
[21:56] <zul> until recently
[21:56] <mathiaz> there are 6 packages left that haven't a MIR written
[21:56] <zul> ill go through them as well
[21:57] <mathiaz> [ACTION] zul will go through the rest of the packages on the ServerPackageReview list.
[21:57] <MootBot> ACTION received:  zul will go through the rest of the packages on the ServerPackageReview list.
[21:57] <mathiaz> dendrobates: could you give a quick update about the Windows auth integration ?
[21:58] <dendrobates> mathiaz: yes
[21:58] <dendrobates> the gui has recently been changed to gtk, it is being repackaged now and will be in universe next week.
[21:59] <dendrobates> There has been a bit more work involved than I origianlly hoped.
[22:00] <mathiaz> Is there any plan for testing ?
[22:00] <dendrobates> still no manpages though.
[22:00] <dendrobates> centeris is running a test suite  currently, and when it is uploaded I will send a message to the mailing list asking for testing.
[22:01] <mathiaz> dendrobates: great !
[22:01] <mathiaz> dendrobates: what's the state of the ldap client integration ?
[22:02] <dendrobates> it has not been worked on because Jerry has been busy with likewise problems.
[22:02] <dendrobates> but, we are planning a face to face to try to get it done.
[22:02] <dendrobates> as well as other things.
[22:02] <mathiaz> on the server front, openldap 2.4 should be uploaded to debian real soon now.
[22:03] <dendrobates> mathiaz: already done
[22:03] <mathiaz> once it has been uploaded, all the packages that depend on it need to be rebuilt
[22:03] <dendrobates> migration has been started
[22:03] <mathiaz> dendrobates: great. steve is working on getting the package rebuilt ?
[22:04] <soren> http://packages.ubuntu.com/hardy/net/slapd http://packages.debian.org/source/sid/openldap2.3
[22:04] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://packages.ubuntu.com/hardy/net/slapd http://packages.debian.org/source/sid/openldap2.3
[22:04] <dendrobates> most is already done.
[22:04] <soren> It says 2.3, but it *is* 2.4.
[22:04] <soren> It makes transitioning loads easier.
[22:05] <zul> can we get the limks updated on the roadmap dor bug triaging  ldap then?
[22:06] <zul> when it is available of course
[22:06] <mathiaz> zul: well - it still points to openldap2.2.
[22:06] <soren> mathiaz: Eh? What does?
[22:06] <mathiaz> zul: may be we should have list of links for all the openldap packages
[22:06] <mathiaz> soren: on the roadmap
[22:06] <zul> sure
[22:07] <mathiaz> soren: under the triager corner.
[22:07] <soren> I need links so I can click on them.
[22:07] <ivoks> :)
[22:07] <mathiaz> soren: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Roadmap#head-f98ade0ed42e24e574acc3b0f89d377b25d2be4b
[22:07] <soren> Thanks.
[22:08]  * nijaba think that playing with is phone is what he really wants
[22:08] <soren> I'll update the link.
[22:08] <mathiaz> [ACTION] soren to update the links to the openldap bugs queries.
[22:08] <MootBot> ACTION received:  soren to update the links to the openldap bugs queries.
[22:09] <soren> Done.
[22:09] <mathiaz> soren: did you think about LTS upgrade tracking ?
[22:09] <soren> Yes.
[22:10] <soren> That's it.
[22:10] <mathiaz> soren: did your thought get translated into a wiki page ?
[22:10] <dendrobates> soren: talk to mvo to sync with his lts upgrade work.
[22:10] <soren> mathiaz: I didn't check :)
[22:11] <mathiaz> soren: hum.. you may check w.u.c - strange things happen there sometime ;)
[22:11] <soren> mathiaz: So they say :)
[22:11] <soren> mathiaz: I'll talk to mvo tomorrow and we'll hash something out.
[22:11] <mathiaz> [ACTION] soren will share his ideas about LTS upgrade tracking with mvo
[22:11] <MootBot> ACTION received:  soren will share his ideas about LTS upgrade tracking with mvo
[22:12] <dendrobates> soren: tell us the state of KVM
[22:12] <soren> It works, bitches.
[22:13] <dendrobates> I concur
[22:13] <sommer> lol
[22:13] <soren> I've just updated it to kvm 60 (which got released today).
[22:13] <soren> And got the virtio stuff into the kernel which will be uploaded tomorrow.
[22:14] <soren> This means that all I/O inside kvm will be massively faster.
[22:14] <mathiaz> soren: did you send an email on ubuntu-server about getting kvm tested ?
[22:14] <dendrobates> can we get the interview in uwn first?
[22:14] <soren> libvirt, virtmanager and virtinst will need to support this cleverly as well. I've done most of libvirt for it already, and will continue upwards in the stack afterwards.
[22:14] <dendrobates> and then send to the list later that day?
[22:15] <soren> mathiaz: Er... Crap. No. I blogged, but no e-mail to the list.
[22:15] <mathiaz> dendrobates: that's a better idea actually - the coverage should be bigger.
[22:16] <mathiaz> soren: any news on the JeOS front ?
[22:17] <soren> Since last meeting?
[22:17] <soren> Er...
[22:17] <soren> Yeah, I think I fixed lvm2 support in the installer.
[22:17] <soren> \o/ Go me.
[22:17]  * nijaba hugs soren for this :)
[22:17] <soren> Well... All the virtio stuff counts as Jeos advancements as well, i guess.
[22:18] <zul> you are my hero ;)
[22:18] <ubuntugeek> soren: any plans on putting the lsi scsi driver into jeos so its usable on vmware esx?
[22:18] <soren> I'm 62.3% sure it's already there.
[22:18]  * soren checks
[22:19] <ubuntugeek> In the 7.10 version?
[22:19] <soren> Er.. No.
[22:20] <ubuntugeek> 8.04?
[22:20] <soren> Yes.
[22:20] <soren> Er... and no :)
[22:20] <ubuntugeek> hrm.. :)
[22:20] <soren> Hrm... I told someone to do that ages ago.
[22:21] <soren> Added to my todo list.
[22:21] <ubuntugeek> Here is the thing, making jeos work in vmware server is great. But the lsi scsi support is vital to vmware esx
[22:21] <ubuntugeek> good to hear it!
[22:21] <dendrobates> mathiaz: make that an action
[22:21] <mathiaz> [ACTION] soren will follow up on getting lsi scsi support in JeOS
[22:21] <MootBot> ACTION received:  soren will follow up on getting lsi scsi support in JeOS
[22:22] <mathiaz> ivoks: what the state of dovecot/postfix/sasl integration ?
[22:22] <ivoks> well, it's stalled
[22:22] <ivoks> i prepared everything for tasksel, but now it turns out that it could be better to do it inside of packages
[22:23] <mathiaz> ivoks: did you talk with lamont after the replies you've received on ubuntu-devel ?
[22:23] <ivoks> no, not yet
[22:23]  * lamont is sorta-here
[22:23] <ivoks> lamont: then fire up :)
[22:23] <lamont> kinda heads down for another 15 min or so.... maybe after meeting?
[22:24] <mathiaz> yop - better that way
[22:24] <ivoks> lamont: could you just reply to messages about postfix/dovecot on ubuntu-server mailing list?
[22:24] <mathiaz> we've got 5 mns left
[22:24] <mathiaz> Anything else to add ?
[22:24] <dendrobates> soren:  have you about how to present kvm in the installer
[22:24] <zul> no
[22:24] <dendrobates> thought
[22:25] <soren> dendrobates: I'm hoping to not have to deal with it at all.
[22:25] <soren> dendrobates: In the sense that everything should automagically Just Work[tm].
[22:25] <mathiaz> dendrobates: do you suggest to add a task to tasksel ?
[22:25] <soren> dendrobates: So far, that plans is looking to come together.
[22:25] <zul> good luck with that [tm]
[22:25] <soren> :)
[22:25] <dendrobates> how about a tasksel for kvm
[22:26] <soren> I might add a "Virtualisation node" task or something like that.
[22:26] <mathiaz> ok - time is running out.
[22:26] <soren> which includes libvirt-bin and all that jazz.
[22:27] <mathiaz> [TOPIC] Agree on next meeting date and time.
[22:27] <MootBot> New Topic:  Agree on next meeting date and time.
[22:27] <mathiaz> Everyone is fine with the new schedule ?
[22:27] <mathiaz> same time, same place, next week ?
[22:27] <sommer> I like it
[22:28] <nijaba> yeah
[22:28] <mathiaz> well - sold then !
[22:28] <mathiaz> see ya next week. Thank you all for joining
[22:29] <nijaba> thanks for charing mathiaz
[22:29] <jdstrand> bye!
[22:29] <dendrobates> byeee
[22:29] <sommer> later all
[22:29] <jdstrand> thanks mathiaz :)
[22:29] <mathiaz> #endmeeting
[22:29] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 22:29.
[22:29] <zul> toodles
[22:29] <vorian> hey there k-mandla
[22:30] <PriceChild> What impeccable timing 8-)
[22:30] <ubuntugeek> howdu fella's
[22:30] <k-mandla> hello everybody! my first meeting :D
[22:30] <xavieran> :)
[22:30] <PriceChild> k-mandla, still no joy on the "real" irc connection?
[22:30] <forumsmatthew> hello!
[22:30] <k-mandla> no, it's got to be my isp or proprietary router. rsync, etc. don't work either. no biggie
[22:31] <forumsmatthew> ubuntugeek, it looks like Mike won't be able to make it
[22:31] <forumsmatthew> heard anything about Kiwi?
[22:31] <ubuntugeek> forumsmatthew: yeah I seen that
[22:31] <PriceChild> k-mandla, ssh?
[22:31] <ubuntugeek> forumsmatthew: Nope it might just be us :)
[22:31] <vorian> and jdong is practicing for the Olympics
[22:31] <forumsmatthew> could be worse
[22:31] <forumsmatthew> decisions go faster without all that talking
[22:31] <forumsmatthew> :)
[22:31] <xavieran> welcome back dn
[22:32] <k-mandla> PriceChild, I haven't tried that yet, but it never gets in the way too much, so i don't fiddle with it much
[22:32] <vorian> ok, here is the glorious agenda
[22:32] <vorian> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ForumCouncilAgenda
[22:32] <ubuntugeek> Light agenda :)
[22:32] <vorian> lol
[22:32] <k-mandla> :D
[22:32] <forumsmatthew> wow, it's blank
[22:33] <forumsmatthew> any thing you want to bring up ubuntugeek
[22:33] <xavieran> xD
[22:33] <vorian> there needs to be some finalization on tutorials
[22:33] <vorian> which is why k-mandla is here i believe
[22:33] <ubuntugeek> Not much really we need to look at the stuff kmandla posted in the staff area about tutorials
[22:33] <k-mandla> yeah, i couldn't edit it for my stuff
[22:33] <ubuntugeek> i'll post it here
[22:33] <forumsmatthew> that is why we need you, vorian
[22:33] <forumsmatthew> thx
[22:33] <ubuntugeek>    1. Tutorials must follow the Code of Conduct.
[22:33] <ubuntugeek>    2. Downloadable scripts or debs are not tutorials.
[22:33] <ubuntugeek>    3. Tutorials should be written to the level of a complete Linux newcomer.
[22:34] <ubuntugeek>    4. Tutorials should be formatted for ease of reading, including code boxes, step-by-step instructions and screenshots where appropriate.
[22:34] <ubuntugeek>    5. A link to an offsite tutorial or blog post is not a tutorial.
[22:34] <ubuntugeek>    6. Tutorials must be written in clear, proper English.
[22:34] <ubuntugeek>    7. Tutorials must be complete.
[22:34] <ubuntugeek>    8. Tutorials may not be copy-and-pasted from outside sources.
[22:34] <ubuntugeek>    9. Tutorials must offer a way of reverting the changes.
[22:34] <ubuntugeek>   10. Authors must support their tutorials.
[22:34] <ubuntugeek>   11. Tutorials must explain how they were tested, and under what conditions.
[22:34] <ubuntugeek>   12. Tutorials must include outside references or credit outside sources, when appropriate.
[22:34] <k-mandla> i can expand upon those when theyre posted to the forum
[22:34] <ubuntugeek> I think its a pretty good start
[22:35] <forumsmatthew> I think that is great! I prefer having short, easy to read and understand rules
[22:35] <forumsmatthew> you can expand in a follow up post
[22:35] <k-mandla> ithought examples might be a good idea, just to fully illustrate and maybe help if there's any problems later
[22:35] <k-mandla> forumsmatthew, that's true
[22:35] <forumsmatthew> that's a good idea, k-mandla
[22:36] <ubuntugeek> Yeah I agree
[22:36] <forumsmatthew> how would you like to do this? sticky post at the top of the tutorial forum?
[22:36] <vorian> +1
[22:37] <k-mandla> +1
[22:37] <ubuntugeek> Yeah +1
[22:37] <vorian> perfecto :)
[22:37] <HymnToLife> Note to self: check the meetings calendar more often
[22:37] <forumsmatthew> greetings, HymnToLife
[22:37] <HymnToLife> hi :)
[22:37] <k-mandla> hi! :)
[22:38] <ubuntugeek> hi
[22:38] <xavieran> welcome back HymnToLife
[22:38] <xavieran> ;)
[22:38] <forumsmatthew> okay, k-mandla, will you take the lead on this? just let us know in the staff forum as things get going and when/if/how you wnat/need help
[22:38] <forumsmatthew> wnat==want
[22:38] <k-mandla> sure. i'm on it.
[22:39] <k-mandla> should be easy. i'll do it today.
[22:39] <ubuntugeek> good deal thanks kmandla
[22:39] <forumsmatthew> great. thank you!
[22:39] <vorian> awesome k-mandla :)
[22:39] <k-mandla> no problem
[22:39] <ubuntugeek> vorian: lets make sure to add to the next meeting what Mike found out about the FC approving members
[22:40] <vorian> okay ubuntugeek
[22:40] <forumsmatthew> and maybe a note to yourself to remind him about a week before that meeting
[22:40] <ubuntugeek> :) heh
[22:40] <forumsmatthew> he's had a lot on his mind lately
[22:40] <vorian> i think its a CC matter at the time being
[22:40] <vorian> they are going to break up the membership process into teams
[22:41] <forumsmatthew> oic
[22:41] <forumsmatthew> cool
[22:41] <forumsmatthew> ubuntugeek, did you want to talk about potential staff additions here?
[22:41] <forumsmatthew> or was our conversation earlier adequate
[22:41] <forumsmatthew> in the forums
[22:41] <ubuntugeek> We can sure
[22:42] <forumsmatthew> these are the people that were mentioned http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=667654
[22:42] <vorian> here is the compiled list
[22:42] <vorian> http://ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=4192946&postcount=24
[22:43] <ubuntugeek> I think they are all good IMO.. I was going to start contacting people this week.
[22:43] <forumsmatthew> This one hasn't been active for 3 weeks, so we can probably take his name out of contention http://ubuntuforums.org/member.php?u=48823
[22:43] <forumsmatthew> otherwise, I think they all look very promising
[22:43] <ubuntugeek> Good deal!
[22:44] <forumsmatthew> do you want help with contacting people?
[22:44] <k-mandla> oops!
[22:44] <k-mandla> sorry
[22:44] <xavieran> welcome back k-mandla
[22:44] <forumsmatthew> k-mandla, lol
[22:44] <k-mandla> :D
[22:45] <vorian> i numbered each candidate on this post
[22:45] <vorian> http://ubuntuforums.org/showpost.php?p=4192946&postcount=24
[22:45] <vorian> just now
[22:45] <ubuntugeek> Sure,   i'll take 1-5 you take 6-11
[22:45] <vorian> nevermind
[22:45] <vorian> :)
[22:45] <ubuntugeek> since vorian was nice enough to number it :)
[22:45] <forumsmatthew> ubuntugeek, great. Will do.
[22:45] <ubuntugeek> good deal!
[22:45] <ubuntugeek> thanks
[22:45] <vorian> excellent
[22:46] <PriceChild> What are you taking them for? You're contacting them all?!
[22:46] <forumsmatthew> Oh, except for number 9, who I just mentioned hasn't been active for a while...I'll reconsider if that changes shortly
[22:46] <vorian> PriceChild: we are facing an LTS :P
[22:46] <forumsmatthew> PC: yep
[22:46] <vorian> and KDE4
[22:46] <vorian> we'll need all the help we can get :P
[22:46] <forumsmatthew> and we have a lot of mods that aren't as active as they used to be
[22:46] <ubuntugeek> :)
[22:46] <PriceChild> Hehe I'm getting scared about #ubuntu :D
[22:47] <ubuntugeek> 2008 will only bring more growth to the forums we need to staff up
[22:47] <forumsmatthew> and some will likely say, "no, but thank you"
[22:48] <ubuntugeek> Yep
[22:48] <forumsmatthew> Get ready to start seeing "welcome to <staff member>" threads in the staff forum
[22:48] <ubuntugeek> :)
[22:48] <vorian> hehe
[22:48] <ubuntugeek> Anyone have anything else to add?
[22:48] <forumsmatthew> I don't have anything
[22:48] <ubuntugeek> I hope to start testing vb 3.7 very soon.
[22:48] <vorian> great jorb on the thank you system u-g
[22:48] <forumsmatthew> unless you want to reconsider forum software again
[22:48] <PriceChild> ubuntugeek, any news on its release?
[22:49] <ubuntugeek> vorian: :) I need to finish that up.
[22:49] <forumsmatthew> Doh! I type too slow sometimes
[22:49] <forumsmatthew> seriously, the thank you think rocks!
[22:49] <forumsmatthew> think==thing
[22:50] <k-mandla> +1
[22:50] <ubuntugeek> :)
[22:50] <k-mandla> i had my doubts but it's actually quite nice
[22:50] <ubuntugeek> I am pretty excited about some of the new stuff in vb3.7
[22:50] <forumsmatthew> if there's nothing else, we can give the Kubuntu guys the channel a few minutes early
[22:50] <ubuntugeek> I think the social groups will be a really cool thing
[22:50] <ubuntugeek> I am all set for t his month..
[22:51] <forumsmatthew> that will be interesting
[22:51] <forumsmatthew> I"m looking forward to all the new toys in 3.7
[22:51] <PriceChild> I'm looking forward to the inline spam bits.
[22:52] <ubuntugeek> yep for sure !
[22:52] <ubuntugeek> I'll setup a test forum this week for us to start testing
[22:52] <forumsmatthew> sweet!
[22:52] <vorian> shall we set a date for the next meeting?
[22:53] <ubuntugeek> Yes
[22:53] <forumsmatthew> this time works well for me
[22:53] <ubuntugeek> Next month same time?
[22:53] <vorian> sure
[22:53] <vorian> Feb 20th?
[22:53] <forumsmatthew> I have some local stuff going on Feb 19-21 and won't be available
[22:53] <forumsmatthew> the rest of the month looks good
[22:53] <vorian> feb 13th
[22:53] <ubuntugeek> 13th works
[22:53] <forumsmatthew> good for me
[22:54] <vorian> i'll send the warning :)
[22:54] <forumsmatthew> thank you
[22:54] <vorian> no problemo
[22:55] <vorian> any other topics?
[22:55] <forumsmatthew> none here
[22:55] <ubuntugeek> nope
[22:55] <vorian> great
[22:55] <ubuntugeek> thanks all!
[22:55] <vorian> thanks everyone
[22:55] <forumsmatthew> thank you!
[22:55] <k-mandla> :D
[22:55] <vorian> k-mandla rocks!
[22:56] <k-mandla> cya!
[22:57] <mhb> the time has come
[22:58]  * apachelogger quits kwrite
[22:58] <kwwii> hi
[22:58] <apachelogger> hey kwwii
[22:58] <jussi01> hey all
[22:59] <apachelogger> ahoy jussi01
[22:59] <cheguevara> hi everyone
[22:59] <mhb> greetings everyone
[22:59] <Nightrose> heya
[22:59] <mornfall> Hi.
[23:00] <Riddell> Good evening friends
[23:00]  * apachelogger waves
[23:00] <Riddell> coming to you live tonight over the water from Canonical Tower
[23:01] <cheguevara> heh
[23:01] <Riddell> to my left is MI5 and to might right is MI6 so don't say anything naughty
[23:01] <kwwii> let's make this quick, the bar is calling :-)
[23:01] <Nightrose> hehe
[23:01] <Riddell> there's a couple of items on https://wiki.kubuntu.org/Kubuntu/Meetings
[23:01] <apachelogger> yet again he is making me jealous :S
[23:01] <jussi01> and my bed!
[23:01] <Riddell> nixternal about?
[23:01] <Riddell> otherwise i don't think we have quorum
[23:02] <Riddell> do we have any memberships?
[23:02] <seele> oh, meeting started
[23:02]  * seele waves
[23:02] <Riddell> GuillaumeMartres about?
[23:03] <Riddell> it's smarter
[23:03] <Riddell> and he's not about
[23:03] <Riddell> kubuntu-default-settings-kde4
[23:03] <nosredna_ekim> ok.... I'll go for membership :)
[23:03] <Riddell> I did try this with the k-d-s upload today but it didn't work
[23:03] <Riddell> if someone wants to work out how to set the wallpaper in plasma from k-d-s that would be very welcome
[23:03] <Riddell> nosredna_ekim: do you have a wiki page?
[23:04] <apachelogger> Riddell: I think the wallpaper might as well not be possible
[23:04] <apachelogger> it is pretty new code IIRC
[23:04] <nosredna_ekim> umm... never mind.. I just read what I needed prepared, i'll wait till next time and get that stuff in order
[23:04] <Riddell> apachelogger: why not?  plasma can set it
[23:04] <nosredna_ekim> sorry
[23:04] <apachelogger> Riddell: yeah, just to set it properly ;-)
[23:04] <apachelogger> well, I'll have a look at it
[23:04] <Riddell> nosredna_ekim: write yourself a wiki page and I can look it over when you like
[23:05] <Riddell> apachelogger: thanks
[23:05] <Riddell> HaraldSitter had a topic
[23:05]  * apachelogger raises his hand
[23:05] <apachelogger> actually a lot of them :D
[23:05] <mornfall> (I may have a topic as well. But in order.)
[23:05] <apachelogger> on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HaraldSitter/KdeFour you find some of them
[23:05] <apachelogger> actually a selection of the most important ones
[23:06] <apachelogger> I'd like to start off with https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HaraldSitter/KdeFour/Apps4For3
[23:06] <apachelogger> it explains how we get KDE 4 wrapper desktop files for KDE 3, and can still use the native KDE 4 ones in KDE 4
[23:07] <apachelogger> it bascially just means that we change our KDE 4 packages ot install kde4-foobar.desktop to /usr/share/applnk which is the a old directory for KDElnk files
[23:07] <Riddell> ideally we wouldn't have wrapper scripts at all, they're pretty ugly
[23:07] <apachelogger> yeah
[23:07] <apachelogger> well
[23:07] <kwwii> I agree with not having wrapper scripts - it'll never work right
[23:07] <apachelogger> yoo hav eto differ here
[23:07] <apachelogger> *have to
[23:08] <apachelogger> I'm talking about the desktop files :P
[23:08] <Riddell> apachelogger: won't /usr/share/applnk show up in kde 4 too?
[23:08] <apachelogger> I'd like to hear some opinions on this proposed changed
[23:08] <apachelogger> nope
[23:08] <Riddell> why not?
[23:08] <apachelogger> that's the nifty thing about it
[23:08] <apachelogger> Riddell: kde4 will only scan $KDEDIR/share/applnk
[23:08] <Riddell> and it wouldn't work in gnome
[23:08] <apachelogger> which is /usr/lib/kde4/
[23:09] <apachelogger> Riddell: yeah, but we have to choose between not working in gnome and causing 300 issues in KDE 4
[23:09] <apachelogger> actually we could probably patch/configure gnome so it scans /usr/share/applnk
[23:10] <cheguevara> will the ubuntu people let us
[23:10] <apachelogger> *shrug*
[23:10] <apachelogger> I hope so
[23:10] <mhb> they won't be happy about it
[23:10] <Riddell> the correct way would be to use NotShowIn=KDE;
[23:10] <apachelogger> hm
[23:10] <Riddell> and set KDE 4 to check for NotShowIn=KDE4;
[23:11] <apachelogger> yeah
[23:11] <apachelogger> Riddell: up for changing it?
[23:11] <Riddell> apachelogger: can do
[23:11] <apachelogger> alternately we could also create 2 desktop files... thinking about it
[23:11] <Riddell> (probably next week)
[23:11] <apachelogger> ok
[23:11] <mornfall> apachelogger: Can't the XDG paths be set in env/*.sh?
[23:11] <mornfall> apachelogger: Without patching KDE.
[23:12] <apachelogger> mornfall: these would be catched by KDE 4 as well
[23:12] <mornfall> apachelogger: They have different <prefixes>.
[23:12] <apachelogger> so we have the KDE 4 wrapper structure again in KDE 4
[23:12] <Riddell> ~/.kde/env and ~/.kde4/env are different
[23:12] <mornfall> The env bits can be set in /usr/... as well, not only ~/.kde.
[23:13] <mornfall> At least in KDE4, I don't have KDE3 startkde handy. Can anyone check?
[23:13] <Riddell> # Source scripts found in <localprefix>/env/*.sh and <prefixes>/env/*.sh
[23:13] <Riddell> # (where <localprefix> is $KDEHOME or ~/.kde, and <prefixes> is where KDE is installed)
[23:14] <Riddell> interesting
[23:14] <apachelogger> so it is possible
[23:14] <apachelogger> well
[23:14] <apachelogger> lets try to use this solution then
[23:14] <mornfall> Well, we can't realistically have /usr/env.
[23:14] <apachelogger> if it doesn't work out
[23:14] <mornfall> If I read that right.
[23:14] <apachelogger> mornfall: why?
[23:15] <mornfall> FHS?
[23:15] <mornfall> Although, who knows.
[23:15] <mornfall> But it is weird at best.
[23:15] <mornfall> And I am not sure about dropping files into user homedirs.
[23:16] <mornfall> That's probably asking for trouble.
[23:16] <stdin> we already drop ~/.kde/env/gtk-qt-engine.rc.sh in
[23:16] <mornfall> Icky.
[23:16] <apachelogger> well
[23:16] <apachelogger> that is just one file
[23:17] <apachelogger> kde4*.desktop can be a lot more
[23:17] <apachelogger> which could even slow login down
[23:17] <apachelogger> ...
[23:17] <apachelogger> which is also a problem
[23:17] <apachelogger> updates don't get available until next login
[23:18] <apachelogger> I think we should do some investigation on the env stuff
[23:18] <Riddell> yep
[23:18] <apachelogger> it it doesn't work out we still can patch KDE 4 to notshowin=kde4;
[23:18] <Riddell> Apps3For4?
[23:18] <apachelogger> yeah
[23:18] <apachelogger> it's basically just a statement
[23:18] <apachelogger> since there is no real solution
[23:19] <apachelogger> right now
[23:19] <apachelogger> we have 2 entries in the KDE 4 menu
[23:19] <apachelogger> "Foobar" and "Foobar KDE 4"
[23:19] <apachelogger> both start the KDE 4 version of Foobar (described in the wiki)
[23:19] <apachelogger> which is confusing
[23:20] <apachelogger> if we use the stock kde 4 desktop files and don't scan the wrapper ones
[23:20] <apachelogger> it will just be an override status
[23:20] <mornfall> apachelogger: I'd say YAGNI and say that overlaid KDE3 apps should be inaccessible, period.
[23:20] <apachelogger> so I have Foobar 1 install and Foobar 2 installed, Foobar 2 will start unless it get uninstalled
[23:20] <apachelogger> mornfall: ok
[23:21] <apachelogger> letz move along, next two https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HaraldSitter/KdeFour/DotKde and https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HaraldSitter/KdeFour/MigrationWizard
[23:21] <Riddell> that's fine but it's still ugly having two menu entries
[23:21] <mornfall> (As you argue in that page, it's not really an issue.)
[23:21] <apachelogger> Riddell: this is fixed with Apps4for3
[23:21] <mornfall> Riddell: I suppose that is solved by the previous thing.
[23:21] <apachelogger> since app names are equal
[23:21] <Riddell> right, sorted
[23:21] <apachelogger> the KDE 4 overrides KDE 3 -> one entry
[23:22] <mhb> I'm not sure about the idea of not being able to launch some KDE3 apps in KDE4.
[23:22] <apachelogger> _we have to_
[23:22] <apachelogger> there is no kdepim for KDE 4
[23:22] <apachelogger> no amarok
[23:22] <apachelogger> no ktorrent
[23:22] <apachelogger> etc.
[23:22] <stdin> mhb: that's the way it is already, try starting kde3's konqueror in kde4
[23:22] <apachelogger> so we have to launch the KDE 3 version if there is no KDE 4 version
[23:22] <mhb> apachelogger: I get that.
[23:23] <apachelogger> but? ;-)
[23:23] <mhb> I just believe there may be use cases for people that want to use both versions at once.
[23:23] <apachelogger> as for example?
[23:23] <mhb> if it's just me, I can live with it.
[23:24] <apachelogger> everyone should
[23:24] <kwwii> I agree
[23:24] <mhb> kopete4 doesn't work for me but I don't want to remove it.
[23:24] <stdin> if you rally want to start the kde3 app, you can still run it from the full path
[23:24] <apachelogger> I can't think of a use case where our target audience would have both installed but use the KDE 3 version
[23:24] <mornfall> mhb: "there may be use cases" is a very dangerous idea.
[23:24] <mornfall> mhb: There are usecases for virtually everything. You have to ask yourself, is this reasonable? Is this common? Is it worth the effort?
[23:25] <mornfall> I'd say yes, no and no.
[23:25] <apachelogger> mhb: kopete4 is not useable and I doubt it will become part of -desktop-kde4
[23:25] <mhb> mornfall: yes, and I say early KDE4 adopters might want to keep KDE4 apps but launch KDE3 ones when they need something working
[23:25] <apachelogger> so our target user group will not install it
[23:25] <apachelogger> mhb: then they will know how to do that
[23:25] <mornfall> Right. There's always terminal.
[23:26] <apachelogger> people who don't want to uninstall crapware are the same people who know how to use a terminal :P
[23:26] <mhb> if you launch say "kopete" in the terminal it'll launch the KDE4 version (provided you're on a KDE4 session).
[23:26] <mhb> you have to specify the full path to launch the KDE3 one.
[23:26] <mornfall> mhb: /usr/bin/kopete?
[23:26] <mornfall> Documentable.
[23:27] <stdin> the only other solution would be kde3 wrapper scripts for kde4 and that would just reverse the problem we have already
[23:27] <apachelogger> this use case is just very rare
[23:27] <mhb> like I said, I can live with it if the rest of the team thinks such users are unlikely and experienced with the command line.
[23:27] <apachelogger> either a software is useable
[23:27] <apachelogger> or it is not
[23:27] <mornfall> mhb: You could write a short document on "where are my KDE3 apps" for those people. Even newbies can follow instructions for that.
[23:27] <apachelogger> if it is you will use it
[23:27] <apachelogger> if it is not, you won't
[23:27] <mornfall> Right.
[23:28] <mornfall> As for dotfiles.
[23:28] <apachelogger> well
[23:28] <apachelogger> the question we have to ask ourselfs is
[23:28] <mornfall> apachelogger: Is your proposal to cp -a .kde .kde3 in Hardy, if ! test -e ~/.kde3?
[23:28] <apachelogger> do we want to use .kde for KDE 4 _ever again_
[23:28] <apachelogger> because if we want
[23:28] <apachelogger> we have to do it before hardy
[23:29] <mornfall> Agreed.
[23:29] <mhb> not really agreed, but go on
[23:29] <apachelogger> as a note is to say, that suse for examle sticks to .kde4
[23:29] <mornfall> And I find the .kde4 idea a little creepy. Something that will come back and stab you in the back.
[23:29] <apachelogger> yeah
[23:29] <apachelogger> +1 on mornfall's comment there :D
[23:30] <apachelogger> KDE should put more thinking in upgrade secenarios... but well...
[23:30] <apachelogger> isn't the case right now
[23:30] <mornfall> Consider NFS homes.
[23:30] <mhb> I think moving .kde to .kde3 for KDE3 users is dangerous practice. The KDE3 CD is intended to be for the people that don't like breakage.
[23:30] <Riddell> KDE's upgrade is fine, co-installability less so
[23:30] <mhb> (for Hardy, that is)
[23:31] <apachelogger> mhb: there is minimal risk of breakage
[23:31] <apachelogger> only very rare cases would lead to a breakage
[23:31] <mornfall> Well, the failure mode is:
[23:31] <mornfall> Upgrade to hardy, edit settings (affects ~/.kde3). Downgrade (hardy is broken, blaa blaa). Where is my settings?!
[23:32] <stdin> downgrading releases is expressly unsupported anyway
[23:32] <mornfall> There's always been the problem of running older KDE than your .kde is.
[23:32] <apachelogger> mornfall: well, we don't support downgrades anyway, do we?
[23:33] <mornfall> apachelogger: Well, you can do that by booting a different installation with same /home.)
[23:33] <mornfall> -)
[23:33] <nixternal> bah
[23:33] <nixternal> sorry about that, was doing a job interview
[23:33] <mhb> I'm really worried about the KDE3 upgraders... are you sure the .kde stuff will get copied correctly for all users on the system?
[23:33] <apachelogger> mornfall: again you have to consider what our target user group does and wants
[23:33] <mornfall> mhb: Not hard to ensure.
[23:33] <LaserJock> nixternal? ... have a job?? ... hahaha ;-)
[23:33] <mornfall> apachelogger: Yes, possibly so.
[23:33] <nixternal> hehe
[23:33] <mhb> mornfall: even for those that don't really run KDE, just some apps from it?
[23:34] <mhb> mornfall: I'm afraid we can't even imagine in how many way people use KDE apps.
[23:34] <mornfall> mhb: It's been the same issue in 3.4->3.5. Everyone survived.
[23:34] <nixternal> FYI: I copied my ~/.kde to ~/.kde4 to see what would happen, and the first couple of logins meant that KDE 4 didn't want to start up, and some of the settings didn't stay the same
[23:34] <mornfall> Just noone cared for the way back.
[23:34] <apachelogger> mhb: they will not effect the location of configs ;-)
[23:35] <nixternal> anything in ~/.kde4/Autostart will not all the desktop to load up
[23:35] <mhb> there will be breakage without a doubt. I would suggest waiting with config dir juggling for Hardy+1, when we need to migrate everyone to KDE4 anyway.
[23:35] <apachelogger> nixternal: it worked for me
[23:35] <apachelogger> anyway
[23:35] <apachelogger> to be more precise
[23:36] <apachelogger> this change does basically mean that .kde only includes apps and configs from gutsy .kde
[23:36] <nixternal> well, I have been dist-upgrading both of my machines I tried it on (1 x86 and 1 x86_64) since Dapper, and neither liked it
[23:36] <apachelogger> like, icon sets are useless due to name change
[23:36] <nixternal> haven't tried seeing what a fresh install would do
[23:36] <mornfall> mhb: At that point, you will have .kde4 dirs all around the place that will need to be migrated as well and make a total mess of everything.
[23:36] <apachelogger> well
[23:37] <mornfall> Although.
[23:37] <apachelogger> nixternal is reminding me on somthing
[23:37] <apachelogger> if we migrate to .kde3
[23:37] <apachelogger> we should do it as soon as possible
[23:37] <mornfall> If you do .kde -> .kde3 and .kde4 -> .kde, that should be equivalent.
[23:37] <mhb> mornfall: I know that, but I prefer one big mess over two medium-sized, we'll get criticized for each one anyway.
[23:37] <apachelogger> because we need to test it properly
[23:38] <mhb> what about all the other around? what do you think?
[23:38] <nixternal> do we have any idea what other distributions are thinking about doing, or how they are planning on going about the migration?
[23:38] <apachelogger> I only know about suse
[23:38] <apachelogger> they stick to .kde4
[23:38] <mornfall> As in, you say that: when you first run KDE4, the settings will be copied to KDE4 but will never be merged again. Changes done in KDE4 will affect KDE4 only, changes in KDE3 will affect KDE3 only. Maybe in the migration wizard, you can give the option to override old KDE4 settings with current KDE3 ones.
[23:38] <nixternal> I think it would be wise to communicate with the other distros
[23:38] <apachelogger> and probably want KDE to provide a migration architecture
[23:39] <mornfall> Then, the .kde4 -> .kde && .kde -> .kde4 shouldn't be such a mess. Dunno.
[23:39] <apachelogger> but since we release before such a thing would be finished we have to get our own solution
[23:39] <apachelogger> Riddell: do you know about other distro's opinions beside suse?
[23:39] <Riddell> apachelogger: no, I'm wishing I had asked last week
[23:40] <mornfall> Well, the one solution is to back up religiously before you do anything to any user settings.
[23:40] <nixternal> we should communicate with Fedora, SUSE, PC Linux OS, Mandriva, and others looking to implement something similar
[23:40] <apachelogger> mornfall: that is the case
[23:40] <kwwii> nixternal: +1
[23:40] <apachelogger> !we backup everything before we do anything!
[23:40] <mornfall> Then, you are basically safe.
[23:40] <mornfall> If there is a restore path, even if manual, most users should end up happy.
[23:40] <apachelogger> yeah
[23:40] <kwwii> I think that we need more info before making a decision
[23:40] <apachelogger> but nixternal is having a point
[23:41] <nixternal> just don't backup the tmp-* stuff in ~/.kde while the system is up and running...it hasn't worked to well for me during the past 10 years :)
[23:41] <apachelogger> anyone willing to contact up other distros?
[23:41] <mornfall> What is upstream default?
[23:41] <mhb> okay, so let's decide at the next meeting?
[23:41] <nixternal> it will always say "you can't do that knucklehead, I am using that" :)
[23:41] <apachelogger> mhb: in this case we should do a special meting
[23:41] <apachelogger> *meeting
[23:41] <apachelogger> next week
[23:41] <apachelogger> because really
[23:41] <apachelogger> this is quite urgent
[23:42] <mornfall> There will always be users that install from source.
[23:42] <kwwii> apachelogger: +1
[23:42] <apachelogger> we need to give it a good amount of testing
[23:42] <apachelogger> else every case of migration can cause serious problems
[23:42] <mornfall> So if distros pick a different route, they are probably breaking things.
[23:42] <apachelogger> mornfall: nope, one can set the default path in kdelibs... or kdebase.. .can't remember
[23:42] <kwwii> if you install from source you know what you are doing and are getting yourself into trouble, if any
[23:42] <nixternal> we should plan on at least feeling out the water before jumping in...I would hate to not test the water and jump in, only to be devoured by irn bru drinking gators
[23:42] <apachelogger> so every app compiled against it will use whatever path is defined there
[23:43] <mornfall> apachelogger: Sure, but I mean. If you don't specify anything explicitly, what will KDE4 pick?
[23:43] <apachelogger> .kde
[23:43] <kwwii> I suggest that apachelogger and nixternal contact other distros to attain this info and that we have a meeting next week to decide
[23:43] <kwwii> ;-)
[23:43]  * apachelogger is ok with that
[23:43]  * nixternal too
[23:44] <Riddell> thanks both
[23:44] <nixternal> apachelogger: we can discuss this post-meeting and come up with a strong delivery
[23:44] <apachelogger> yeah
[23:44] <apachelogger> kwwii: suggestions for a meeting day
[23:45] <apachelogger> ?
[23:45] <kwwii> apachelogger: one week from today would be an ok date, or?
[23:45] <nixternal> btw, default KDE 3 wallpaper is gorgeous, and the KDM login is beautiful...for some reason I had the KDM login screen disabled, giving me a 1980's looking login box :)
[23:45] <kwwii> assuming that we get responses by then
[23:45] <nixternal> can we at least get feedback prior to firing up a meeting..It might be good to see about bringing the other distributions together for a centralized meeting on this as well
[23:45] <Riddell> KdeSudo?
[23:45] <apachelogger> kwwii: well, I have an importan project meeting on Thu
[23:46] <mornfall> Go for upstream solution, IMHO. Sounds like the right thing to do.
[23:46] <apachelogger> well
[23:46] <apachelogger> lets go with meeting+7*24h
[23:46] <apachelogger> mornfall: there is just not enough time
[23:46] <mornfall> apachelogger: Which means?
[23:46] <apachelogger> we need a solution in time for hardy
[23:46] <mornfall> Is it less effort to port kdesudo to kde4 than fix whatever is wrong with kdesu?
[23:47] <apachelogger> ah
[23:47] <kwwii> as long as we plana meeting a few daays in advance it should not be a problem to pick a decent day and time
[23:47] <nixternal> apachelogger: we are looking to have a solid migration tool by October of 2008, I think we have time to plan, design, test, and implemant
[23:47] <apachelogger> I was talking about .kde still :D
[23:47] <apachelogger> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HaraldSitter/KdeFour/KdeSudo
[23:47] <mornfall> apachelogger: Riddell changed topics : - ).
[23:47] <Riddell> apachelogger: kdesu in kde 4 won't be any better than in kde 3
[23:47] <apachelogger> well
[23:47] <Riddell> it still own't remember password
[23:47] <Riddell> which is the main reason for kdesudo
[23:47] <apachelogger> how about implementing kdesudo stuff in upstream then?
[23:48] <mornfall> Hm.
[23:48] <apachelogger> so others can take advantage of it as well
[23:48]  * nixternal thought that was the plan originally
[23:48] <mornfall> Riddell: How is password caching done? Sounds like it should be using the sudo feature of not asking password for a while after entering it once.
[23:48]  * kwwii has no battery left...gotta go
[23:48] <nixternal> hehe, later kwwii
[23:49] <apachelogger> ha, cu kwwii :D
[23:49] <kwwii> see you!
[23:49] <Riddell> mornfall: that's how it's done, but kdesu can't remember the pty so it doesn't work
[23:49] <blizzzek> bye kwwii
[23:49] <apachelogger> Riddell: who is developing kdesudo?
[23:49] <Riddell> apachelogger: tonio
[23:49] <apachelogger> will talk to him about this
[23:49] <apachelogger> but we can generally agree that it would make sense to make upstream's solution work properly instead of develop our own?
[23:50] <mornfall> apachelogger: Yes. Given it is possible to do that.
[23:50] <Riddell> apachelogger: that's what we tried until gutsy, but it didn't work
[23:50] <apachelogger> Riddell: is the structure of kdesu and kdesudo that different?
[23:50] <Riddell> yes, very
[23:50] <mornfall> Can kdesudo use su?
[23:50] <Riddell> kdesu has a daemon and protocl
[23:51] <Riddell> mornfall: no but it could probably be added
[23:51] <apachelogger> Riddell: talked with kdesu developer(s) about this?
[23:51] <Riddell> apachelogger: you're making an assumption there :)
[23:51] <nixternal> hehe
[23:51] <mornfall> Hm.
[23:51] <apachelogger> I would never do that :P
[23:51] <mornfall> kdesu has a remember password checkbox, does it not?
[23:51] <mornfall> That's why it needs a daemon.
[23:51] <apachelogger> well
[23:51] <apachelogger> only for su
[23:52] <mornfall> Right. But kdesudo can't do that.
[23:52] <mornfall> Which may be a problem.
[23:52] <apachelogger> kdesudo does remember the password
[23:52] <apachelogger> well, not kdesudo
[23:52] <apachelogger> but sudo does
[23:52] <mornfall> The daemon also may need to run as root, since it needs mlock.
[23:52] <mornfall> apachelogger: Not everyone with KDE has sudo, so that's a no-go for upstream.
[23:53] <apachelogger> mornfall: kdesu supports su and sudo
[23:53] <stdin> mornfall: kdesu is configured at build to use sudo _or_ su
[23:53] <mornfall> apachelogger: Yes, but its password caching is separate from sudo, I suppose?
[23:53] <apachelogger> just that the sudo support is quite crappy from what Riddell saied
[23:53] <mornfall> Hm.
[23:53] <mhb> it is.
[23:53] <apachelogger> well
[23:53] <apachelogger> I'll talk with tonio about this
[23:53] <apachelogger> and upstream
[23:53] <mornfall> Right.
[23:54] <Riddell> if kdesu can be fixed for sudo then great, but I couldn't work out how when I looked at it
[23:54] <apachelogger> ok
[23:54] <apachelogger> we will see :)
[23:54] <apachelogger> last item: Maybe we should mark upstream KDE 4 bugs, so we can differ them from our bugs (add [KDE 4] to the name, and tag as kde4)?
[23:54] <Riddell> sounds like hassle
[23:55] <nixternal> I recommended tagging a few weeks back actually
[23:55] <nixternal> it could be a great "get into helping Kubuntu" task
[23:55] <Riddell> they almost all hvae -kde4 in the package name
[23:55] <apachelogger> well
[23:55] <apachelogger> I mean
[23:55] <apachelogger> differ packaging bugs from software bugs
[23:56] <apachelogger> I dunno if it makes sense 4 weeks from now
[23:56] <cheguevara> if there's nothing more important i can volunteer to do that
[23:56] <apachelogger> but right now it does, because I mostly fix some software bugs along with package bugs by backporting fixes from KDE svn
[23:57] <apachelogger> anyone sees a reason for not tagging?
[23:57] <Riddell> if cheguevara wants to, that's all good
[23:57] <mornfall> Other than extra work, probably no. If volunteers are found, why not.
[23:58] <apachelogger> ok
[23:58]  * txwikinger will try to look after tagging too
[23:58]  * apachelogger as well
[23:58] <apachelogger> so we are 3 with cheguevara
[23:58] <Riddell> great
[23:58] <apachelogger> should be enough for now :)
[23:58] <cheguevara> the hardest thing is locating if a bug already exists in the kde bug tracker or not
[23:58] <mornfall> apachelogger: Or forever.
[23:58] <apachelogger> Riddell: so, I'm done for this meeting
[23:58] <Riddell> any other business? mornfall?
[23:59] <mornfall> Well, there's Adept and what to do about it.
[23:59] <mornfall> I am pretty outdated on package management in kubuntu.
[23:59] <apachelogger> cheguevara: well, this can be done when someone has time, when the bug is tagged it's quite easy to have some of them compared to kde bts