| === paulj1 is now known as pauljw | ||
| coz_ | hey guys... where can I download the official desktop background for edubuntu? | 06:33 |
|---|---|---|
| LaserJock | coz_: well, the easiest way would be to get the edubuntu-artwork .deb and unpack it I think | 06:34 |
| coz_ | LaserJock, ok let me try to find that thanks :) | 06:35 |
| LaserJock | coz_: what version do you want? | 06:36 |
| coz_ | LaserJock, well I was looking to get ahold of thet world map background on the chaulkboard image | 06:36 |
| LaserJock | hmm | 06:37 |
| coz_ | LaserJock, I know the easiest way is just to install edubuntu :) | 06:37 |
| LaserJock | nah | 06:37 |
| coz_ | mm I downloaded the recent pacakge of edubuntu-artwork and tha image is not there | 06:37 |
| LaserJock | coz_: you might try https://edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/gutsy/i386/edubuntu-artwork/0.1.0-53 | 06:38 |
| LaserJock | https://edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/feisty/i386/edubuntu-artwork/0.1.0-48 | 06:38 |
| coz_ | LaserJock, ok I am there let me see if its there :) | 06:38 |
| LaserJock | or possibly https://edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/edgy/i386/edubuntu-artwork/0.1.0-45 | 06:38 |
| coz_ | LaserJock, mm I think the edgy one might be it let me try that | 06:40 |
| LaserJock | coz_: bah, actually you want https://wiki.ubuntu.com/EdubuntuArtwork/DefaultDesktops | 06:40 |
| coz_ | AH! yes | 06:40 |
| coz_ | LaserJock, :) thanks guy | 06:41 |
| LaserJock | np | 06:41 |
| coz_ | LaserJock, i think the last time I used edubuntu was indeed the edgy version | 06:41 |
| sakhi | hi | 07:51 |
| sakhi | all | 07:51 |
| sakhi | vistakiller: how do you kill vista? | 11:38 |
| vistakiller | i dont know :P | 11:39 |
| vistakiller | you go to xxx site :D | 11:39 |
| RichEd | sakhi: seems my @ubuntu.com is not getting through ... i'll send you another address | 11:39 |
| vistakiller | visit* | 11:39 |
| RichEd | please repost whatever you sent | 11:39 |
| sakhi | RichEd: ok, will do. | 11:39 |
| sakhi | RichEd: How is it going? | 11:43 |
| RichEd | sakhi: well but busy | 11:44 |
| === RichEd-1 is now known as RichEd | ||
| Nubae | anyone know if flash support works in 64 bit gutsy yet, or should I stick to gnash | 15:49 |
| Nubae | specifically does pulse audio work | 15:49 |
| RichEd | Nubae: ask across in #ubuntu ... that's more a base operating system question than the edubuntu layer | 15:50 |
| Nubae | well, I want it to work in my thin clients :-) | 15:52 |
| Nubae | right now I have gnash installed because that allows pulse audio for pages like youtube to work, but there are many flash apps on other sites that don't work... this is why I'm asking | 15:54 |
| RichEd | Nubae: ogra should be able to help ... but he is not well today, and may not be responsive | 15:55 |
| Nubae | ok, I'll look at the mailing list archives, that should give me an answer if anything has changed... | 15:56 |
| RichEd | our LTSP is the latest one from #ltsp though, so you could try to ask over there ... sbalneav or jammcq are good to ask | 15:56 |
| LaserJock | morning all | 18:16 |
| stgraber | hi LaserJock | 18:25 |
| LaserJock | RichEd, ogra: see my emails to edubuntu-{devel,users}? | 18:26 |
| calimer- | I'm interested in getting some free educational software that lets kids design their own games into edubuntu, does anyone know who I could talk to about that? | 20:07 |
| === calimer- is now known as calimer | ||
| pygi | calimer, you could talk with us :) | 20:08 |
| pygi | what do you mean by "design their own games into edubuntu" ? :) | 20:09 |
| LaserJock | calimer: well, you might just want to look through the software repos | 20:09 |
| calimer | that sounds great :D | 20:09 |
| calimer | http://Kids.PlatinumArts.Net shows it off a bit better | 20:09 |
| calimer | but basically the idea is that they can create their own 3D worlds in real time | 20:09 |
| calimer | it is already being used in a few schools and more want it in | 20:09 |
| calimer | I just made a new release yesterday so that's why the DL numbers look low | 20:10 |
| calimer | it was late last night actually | 20:10 |
| calimer | I didn't really want to promote it so much before since it had a bit of kid friendly stuff left to go | 20:10 |
| calimer | but now all of that is set | 20:11 |
| calimer | it could use some more cleaning but it is so far beyond the last release | 20:11 |
| LaserJock | ohhhhh | 20:11 |
| LaserJock | sorry, I thought you were asking if any such software existed | 20:11 |
| LaserJock | you want to get it *into* Edubuntu | 20:11 |
| calimer | if you have heard of cube 2 or sauerbraten, it is that engine kidified | 20:11 |
| calimer | yes | 20:11 |
| calimer | it's free and open source | 20:12 |
| LaserJock | what is the License? | 20:12 |
| calimer | mainly GPL like | 20:12 |
| calimer | basically if you do cool stuff to the engine let me put it in sandbox to make it better | 20:12 |
| LaserJock | heh, "mainly"? | 20:12 |
| calimer | some content needs the permission of the authors if you use it in other projects | 20:13 |
| calimer | but it is all licensed for sandbox | 20:13 |
| LaserJock | hmm, we might have to look into that | 20:13 |
| calimer | no worries and if anything about the license bothers you tell me | 20:13 |
| calimer | I'm definitely up for cleaning it up | 20:13 |
| calimer | I mainly care about getting it out there for kids to use | 20:14 |
| LaserJock | that's very nice of you | 20:14 |
| calimer | well this is a personal project of big importance to me | 20:14 |
| calimer | I work with kids for my job | 20:14 |
| calimer | and now the schools that I work at want to get sandbox in there | 20:14 |
| calimer | so I can't wait to show the kids I've worked with for a while now and such | 20:14 |
| calimer | and I have gotten to see a lot of kids personally use it too and it is such a blast | 20:15 |
| calimer | i used it to teach at a kids camp over the summer on how to make games, ages 11-17 and they loved it | 20:15 |
| calimer | and a middle school in illinois is using it and the guy wrote me today that one student in particular is going CRAZY with it | 20:15 |
| calimer | which to me is the greatest reward I could have | 20:16 |
| calimer | I even have some screens from 6 and 7 year old sisters who made a little house, it is so cute to imagine them making stuff | 20:16 |
| wwwojcieh | it is very intresting | 20:17 |
| calimer | I work at the high school sometimes too and I had girls that were like 17 and 18 that were also really interested in it!! | 20:18 |
| calimer | I was surprised | 20:18 |
| calimer | here are screens from the 6 and 7 year old | 20:18 |
| calimer | http://www.kids.platinumarts.net/component/option,com_zoom/Itemid,46/catid,5/ | 20:18 |
| calimer | these are screens from the 8 year old girl I babysat over the summer | 20:18 |
| calimer | http://www.kids.platinumarts.net/component/option,com_zoom/Itemid,46/catid,3/ | 20:18 |
| LaserJock | calimer: hmm, well it *is* going to need a license statement in the source, preferably in a COPYING file in the top level directory | 20:22 |
| calimer | can explain exactly what that means please | 20:23 |
| LaserJock | well, there actually isn't anything that I can see in the .zip file that explicitly has the license | 20:24 |
| LaserJock | it's also good to put the license in each source file | 20:24 |
| calimer | it is PlatinumArtsSandboxLicense.txt | 20:24 |
| calimer | maybe I should rename it to license.txt | 20:25 |
| calimer | ah interesting idea with the source file | 20:25 |
| calimer | but honestly I don't really care that much how it is used | 20:26 |
| LaserJock | yes, but we have legal liability | 20:26 |
| calimer | just that if someone tries to make a commercial product with it for example I would want access to their source so I could use the code to improve sandbox | 20:26 |
| LaserJock | hmm | 20:27 |
| calimer | and credit our project so that it helps it get it out there | 20:27 |
| calimer | but yeah I'm willing to do whatever license cleanup especially if that is the only thing holding sandbox back from getting in | 20:27 |
| calimer | also the cube2 engine does have a zlib liscence which is in the src directory | 20:27 |
| calimer | sorry it is kind of confusing with the licenses | 20:28 |
| LaserJock | I think we already have sauerbraten in the repos | 20:28 |
| LaserJock | ah, but it is in Multiverse, which is the non-free repo | 20:28 |
| calimer | sandbox is more focus on the game creation aspects of the cube 2 engine | 20:29 |
| calimer | as opposed to the DM sauer focuses on | 20:29 |
| calimer | and also sauer is not for kids, haha | 20:29 |
| calimer | and it doesn't have carts :D | 20:29 |
| LaserJock | calimer: do you just use the sauerbraten engine or content too? | 20:34 |
| calimer | sandbox is based on the sauerbraten/cube 2 engine | 20:35 |
| calimer | as far as content some of the content is similar but I licensed it from those people individually | 20:35 |
| calimer | and put in appropriate readmes for directories | 20:36 |
| calimer | the license for sauer/cube 2 is zlib and is in the src directory | 20:36 |
| calimer | btw members of the sauer/cube 2 community do contribute to the project and look through all the files and such | 20:37 |
| calimer | sandbox is not my first project so I'm decently experienced in making sure I have all proper permissions | 20:37 |
| LaserJock | ok, so all the sauerbraten/cube 2 stuff is zlib? | 20:40 |
| calimer | yes | 20:40 |
| calimer | and pertains only to the src directory | 20:41 |
| calimer | there is no actual sauer content taken and "assumed" to be zlib | 20:41 |
| LaserJock | and the rest is the PlatinumArts license? | 20:41 |
| calimer | all textures, models, etc, I got permission for on an individual basis | 20:42 |
| calimer | yep | 20:42 |
| calimer | well | 20:42 |
| LaserJock | ok, now those textures and models, are there licenses for them? | 20:42 |
| calimer | except for stuff mentioned in the readmes :) | 20:42 |
| calimer | yes | 20:42 |
| calimer | all included in their respective folders | 20:42 |
| LaserJock | well, there's a lot of folders ;-) | 20:43 |
| calimer | yeah, was there something you needed to look out for specifically? | 20:43 |
| calimer | mainly people asked that if their stuff was used in projects other than sandbox that permission is asked | 20:44 |
| calimer | and some didn't want their stuff to be used commercially | 20:44 |
| * pygi likes how this looks | 20:44 | |
| calimer | cool pygi I hope you enjoy it :D | 20:44 |
| pygi | haha, calimer, you just need to make sure it's completely free, and you should be fine to bug somebody to package it up =) | 20:45 |
| LaserJock | calimer: well, that makes them non-free | 20:45 |
| * pygi agrees with LaserJock | 20:46 | |
| calimer | how is it nonfree? | 20:46 |
| LaserJock | because for them to be free any of our users must be free to modify them | 20:46 |
| LaserJock | we cannot discriminate against people who want to use the software commercially and it must be free for modification | 20:47 |
| calimer | I don't think there would be any problems modifying them but if they want to sell it then that could be a problem | 20:47 |
| calimer | they would just have to use other content to substitute for whatever | 20:47 |
| calimer | I mean they can just find their own texture set | 20:47 |
| pygi | calimer, why cant you replace it with some free texture sets? | 20:47 |
| LaserJock | so, that means that it will be considered non-free for placement in the repo | 20:47 |
| calimer | or make one | 20:48 |
| LaserJock | it can be included in Multiverse though | 20:48 |
| calimer | we did have some free ones but they looked ugly | 20:48 |
| calimer | and if you know any good ones I'm certainly interested | 20:48 |
| pygi | calimer, make a call on webpage for art folks, I'm sure some would help | 20:48 |
| calimer | I mean this is all a big learning experience for me oto | 20:48 |
| calimer | but I had to have SOMETHING in there so the kids could make stuff | 20:49 |
| calimer | most of the textures are freely distributable | 20:51 |
| calimer | this is the main thing that is a little hmm and it is in the texture pack | 20:52 |
| calimer | Some images found in this archive were not created by me. These images were obtained from a number of sources on the Internet that labeled them as "freely distributable". Some of the authors of these graphics may not approve if the graphics are used commercially. | 20:52 |
| calimer | the texture pack folder | 20:52 |
| LaserJock | right | 20:54 |
| calimer | also this folder can be deleted | 20:55 |
| calimer | rorschach | 20:55 |
| calimer | he just says he'd prefer it if you didn't edit his textures | 20:55 |
| calimer | none are being used in sandbox, I left it in there by accident when I was looking for good textures to use | 20:55 |
| LaserJock | alright, well as-is this would be non-free and got to Multiverse | 20:55 |
| LaserJock | which means it can be in the archive and users can get it, but it wouldn't be shipped in Edubuntu | 20:56 |
| calimer | I don't know the extent of what that means but it is good that it is getting in in general | 20:56 |
| calimer | what is the archive? | 20:56 |
| calimer | and what would it need to be shipped with edubuntu? | 20:56 |
| LaserJock | the software repository, where all the Ubuntu software is | 20:56 |
| calimer | ah so sounds pretty good anyway | 20:57 |
| LaserJock | it would have to be considered "free" | 20:57 |
| calimer | what is the specific definition of free? | 20:57 |
| LaserJock | well, it would be not disallowing commercial use | 20:58 |
| calimer | and btw I think the edubuntu project in general is an awesome idea | 20:58 |
| LaserJock | here's some better info than what I can say ;-) | 20:58 |
| LaserJock | http://www.ubuntu.com/community/ubuntustory/philosophy | 20:58 |
| calimer | especially this idea " Linux for Young Human Beings " | 20:58 |
| calimer | okay | 20:58 |
| LaserJock | and http://www.ubuntu.com/community/ubuntustory/components | 20:58 |
| calimer | I can see what I can do about catering to that | 20:58 |
| LaserJock | I mean, we definitely prefer "free" but Multiverse would at least get it accessible to Ubuntu/Edubuntu users | 20:59 |
| calimer | I think I'd have a hard time in general with that | 21:00 |
| calimer | especially since people want to know if the models get used in other projects | 21:00 |
| LaserJock | yep | 21:00 |
| calimer | maybe we could have a basic "free" version and they content packs to DL | 21:01 |
| calimer | then | 21:01 |
| LaserJock | I'm not gonna tell you what to do, I definitely have sympathy about not wanting commercialization of your hard work, but our users expect us to not change policies ;-) | 21:01 |
| calimer | well it isn't me | 21:01 |
| LaserJock | I know | 21:01 |
| calimer | it is just SOME content would have to be replaced for a commercial project | 21:01 |
| calimer | so how does that sound | 21:02 |
| calimer | create a basic free version and then have content packs you could DL | 21:02 |
| LaserJock | well, you could do a "free" version that was GPL or MIT that'd be just lovely | 21:02 |
| calimer | so all "not used for commerical stuff" would be in thatcontent pack | 21:02 |
| LaserJock | yeah | 21:02 |
| calimer | I think GPL mainly follows what I want anyway | 21:02 |
| calimer | just any cool stuff they do to the source let me use it to enhance sandbox | 21:02 |
| LaserJock | yeah, the GPL means they have to use GPL, which is fine for you | 21:03 |
| calimer | seperating the two shouldn't be too tough | 21:03 |
| calimer | the free version vs content pack specifically | 21:04 |
| LaserJock | I think you might get something out of sending an email to edubuntu-users | 21:04 |
| LaserJock | there are a lot of educators on that list and they might give you some good ideas/support as well | 21:04 |
| calimer | that sounds awesome | 21:04 |
| LaserJock | also, the MOTU Games team is sort of the people that'd most likely be interested in working on the actual packaging of it | 21:05 |
| calimer | is that a mailing list? | 21:05 |
| LaserJock | yep, go to http://lists.ubuntu.com | 21:05 |
| calimer | this sounds great and something I'm definitely interested in | 21:05 |
| calimer | a lot of this is new to me and I'm really glad I came to you guys about this | 21:05 |
| calimer | and thanks for the help with it too | 21:06 |
| LaserJock | well, we appreciate people who care about free software for kids | 21:06 |
| calimer | I think I would definitely fall into that category, haha | 21:06 |
| calimer | there really isn't any program out there that I know of that makes game making or even 3D designing accessable to kids | 21:07 |
| calimer | so that is really why I wanted to make this and when I played with sauer the lightbulb turned on | 21:07 |
| LaserJock | you might be interested in http://wiki.debian.org/Games/Development | 21:08 |
| LaserJock | for games Debian and Ubuntu are collaborating | 21:08 |
| LaserJock | they would be a good group to talk to about making a free version | 21:09 |
| calimer | I'll have to list of all of this stuff to check out | 21:09 |
| LaserJock | as they are used to specifically working on games | 21:09 |
| calimer | going to put it in my todo list right now | 21:09 |
| LaserJock | alright, well I need to get back to research | 21:10 |
| LaserJock | and I'm about at the limit of my game packaging knowledge | 21:10 |
| calimer | thanks for all of your help, let's chat again sometime | 21:10 |
| LaserJock | good luck to you, I'll look forward to seeing this in Ubuntu | 21:11 |
| calimer | me too :) | 21:11 |
| calimer | I was looking through the content and a lot of textures are all set and I would just have to remove a bunch of models and put them in the content pack | 21:28 |
| calimer | should be pretty easy to do | 21:29 |
| john_s | hello all, I am trying to install and use kde4 on edubuntu/Gutsy can anyone point me at a howto? I've installed kde4-core and have kde in listed in "sessions" at login, when I log in i see the splash start to load and then I am dumped to the greeter again. | 21:59 |
| johnny | kde 4 is still in devel | 22:00 |
| johnny | watch for falling bugs | 22:00 |
| john_s | indeed | 22:00 |
| johnny | i doubt you'll get any help for kde 4 | 22:00 |
| johnny | here | 22:00 |
| john_s | I was wondering if anyone had been trying it out | 22:00 |
| johnny | try the kde folks directly | 22:00 |
| john_s | ahh | 22:00 |
| johnny | not me | 22:00 |
| johnny | you're not expecting kde4 to be as functional as kde3 are you? | 22:01 |
| johnny | kde 4.0 that is | 22:01 |
| johnny | hopefully 4.1 will be | 22:01 |
| john_s | No, not necessarily, I am sure that it has a long way to go, but I am interested to see it in action. | 22:02 |
| johnny | a livecd would be best prolly | 22:02 |
| johnny | if they have one | 22:02 |
| john_s | They do. | 22:02 |
| johnny | i'm sure somebody has made one | 22:02 |
| johnny | that's just my personal opinion .. i dont' represent edubuntu at all | 22:02 |
| john_s | That's fine. I appreciate your advice. I think I'll keep looking into it yet. This box is a development box and I am interested in seeing what I can get going. | 22:03 |
| johnny | it won't even make it into hardy | 22:03 |
| john_s | Production is 7.06 | 22:03 |
| johnny | last i heard at least | 22:03 |
| john_s | Oh, that I didn't know. I thought they were aiming for inclusion in Hardyt | 22:03 |
| johnny | no.. becuase it can't meet parity with kde3 | 22:04 |
| johnny | feature wise | 22:04 |
| johnny | or bug wise for that matter i'm sure | 22:04 |
| john_s | sure | 22:04 |
| johnny | they aren't going to release something less functional than what is already available | 22:04 |
| john_s | a fine idea indeed! | 22:04 |
| john_s | ok, well thanks again, I am off. | 22:05 |
| johnny | you're welcome | 22:05 |
| LaserJock | hmm, too late. I've got KDE4 going in Edubuntu | 22:06 |
| johnny | maybe he's in #kde? | 22:08 |
| john_s | hello all: I am trying to get to the tty from my thinclient doing ctrl + alt + F2 (etc) gets me an un-responsive desktop, ctrl + alt = f7 gets me my current (responsive) desktop back. Currently running gutsy | 22:48 |
| LaserJock | ah, you're back | 22:49 |
| LaserJock | did you get any info on KDE4? | 22:49 |
| john_s | ouch: I guess I can't switch tty's from inside the gnome environment either. | 22:52 |
| john_s | dunno if someone responded to my query but I had to kill x and restart so I didn't see it if anyone did respond | 22:53 |
| LaserJock | john_s: no, I just asked if you got any info on KDE4 | 22:59 |
| LaserJock | I'm not sure about the tty situation | 22:59 |
| john_s | LaserJock: sorry, I was mucking about | 23:03 |
| john_s | yeah I have kde4 installed and it looks pretty cute logging in from the server, haven't gotten it to work on the TC yet. Thats why I am trying to get to the tty so I can see any error messages. None are being logged to the server AKAICT | 23:04 |
| john_s | brb | 23:05 |
| john_s | yikes: what a trip | 23:33 |
| john_s | I think I am realizing that xdmcp is broken in gutsy | 23:33 |
| john_s | boy, I am having one avenue after another blocked here | 23:33 |
| LaserJock | why are you using xdmcp? | 23:33 |
| john_s | Well, I confirmed that kde4 is running when I logged into the server itself, but that it fails when I try to log in from a thin client, so I wanted to check out the logs on the TC but I couldn't get a local tty for some reason. Ah Ha! I said, I'll try an xdmcp session and try to run kde4, perhaps I'll be able to narrow the scope of this problem, but xdmcp is apparently broken in Gutsy | 23:35 |
| john_s | I use xdmcp sometimes to manage remote LTSP's on the LAN so its useful to have | 23:36 |
| john_s | Hopefully it gets fixed someday | 23:36 |
| john_s | I see there is a project to have kubuntu get the edubuntu treatment, I assume this isn't part of the mainstream edubuntu track? | 23:38 |
| LaserJock | well, I'd say yes and no | 23:40 |
| john_s | LaserJock: a very even-handed response! | 23:40 |
| LaserJock | I don't think it's an official goal exactly but people are welcome to work on it | 23:41 |
| john_s | yah. As I understand it there is only 1 full time developer supported by Canonical? | 23:41 |
| LaserJock | yep, ogra | 23:42 |
| john_s | That's pretty amazing. Do you have an idea how big the entire paid development team is for Ubuntu? | 23:42 |
| john_s | Anyway it would be nice if we could find a way to support more folks to work on Edubuntu. I suppose there are folks looking into that (grants and what not) | 23:44 |
| LaserJock | hmm | 23:45 |
| stgraber | Edubuntu moving as an add-on on top of Ubuntu will greatly reduce the amount of work and testing that we currently have, as the only part which will be "Edubuntu" will actually be educational apps + artwork | 23:45 |
| LaserJock | I think it's probably around 30 paid people for all *buntu | 23:46 |
| john_s | I see. stgraber: is that where it's heading? | 23:46 |
| LaserJock | actually, it maybe be more than that with recent hires | 23:46 |
| LaserJock | john_s: yes LTSP has already moved to the Ubuntu .iso (Alternate Cd I think) | 23:47 |
| john_s | LaserJock: ok. It seems like there must be a lot of edubuntu users out there. I wonder what they represent as a percentage of the ubuntu install base? | 23:47 |
| LaserJock | john_s: in the next few weeks the transition should be made to the Edubuntu disks | 23:47 |
| stgraber | the distro team list I have here is 35 names long, but I know it's incomplete and Ubuntu != Distro team | 23:47 |
| john_s | wow, so that means that Ogra will only have to polish the edu related parts? | 23:47 |
| LaserJock | john_s: "only" ? :-) | 23:48 |
| john_s | touche' | 23:48 |
| LaserJock | right now I think he's also doing most of the LTSP work, but he is supposed to be transitioned out of that | 23:48 |
| john_s | LaserJock: so does someone else come in or does that greater "ubuntu transition" take care of that? | 23:49 |
| stgraber | yes, IIRC the plan is to have scott to do LTSP integration in Ubuntu | 23:49 |
| LaserJock | john_s: I think the idea is to have the Server Team more or less handle LTSP and related server infrastructure | 23:50 |
| john_s | hm. Interesting. Here's hoping it keeps getting the kind of attention it has been. I have really struggled with/appreciated the work so far :-) | 23:51 |
| stgraber | all the specs like Active Directory-like infrastructure, Edubuntu auth server/client, ... will now be assigned to the Server team (done with the OpenLDAP integration) | 23:52 |
| john_s | stgraber: interesting again. We use AD for auth, but I hope to eventually move the domain when I feel like the back end tools are mature enough for a non guru to use | 23:53 |
| stgraber | yes, that's the current problem, we have OpenLDAP but what we now need is a good frontend on top of it | 23:53 |
| stgraber | (mass user creation, user/computer management, ...) | 23:54 |
| john_s | yeah. Didn't read hat have a front-end that they bought and shared a couple of years ago. hmm I see "fedora-directory-server" that might be it | 23:55 |
| john_s | I wonder where samba 4 is in all this? | 23:57 |
| stgraber | alpha2 is out, I haven't tried it though | 23:59 |
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