| Palintheus | ls | 01:40 |
|---|---|---|
| Palintheus | grr | 01:40 |
| gcleric | rrrraaawww! | 01:40 |
| === Varka_ is now known as Varka | ||
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| === cjwatson_ is now known as cjwatson | ||
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| === cjwatson_ is now known as cjwatson | ||
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| pitti | hello | 13:56 |
| emgent | heya pitti | 13:56 |
| emgent | @schedule Rome | 13:56 |
| ubotu | Schedule for Europe/Rome: 01 Feb 21:00: MOTU | 13 Feb 23:30: Forum Council | 20 Feb 02:00: TriLoCo-Midwest | 13:56 |
| * mvo waves | 13:57 | |
| * Hobbsee waves to pitti and mvo | 13:57 | |
| * Hobbsee hides from any lightning bolts | 13:57 | |
| * Hobbsee keeps her watering can handy, for putting out any more spot fires | 13:57 | |
| pedro_ | hello | 13:58 |
| pitti | hey | 13:59 |
| seb128 | hey | 13:59 |
| MacSlow | greetings | 13:59 |
| Riddell | hi | 13:59 |
| pitti | hm, no Ted yet? | 13:59 |
| Riddell | he has been known to need a text | 14:00 |
| MacSlow | looks like it | 14:00 |
| * pitti smses | 14:00 | |
| MacSlow | ah fast :) | 14:01 |
| Riddell | that was fast | 14:01 |
| MacSlow | my sms lways take ages | 14:01 |
| pitti | hey tedg | 14:01 |
| tedg | Morning guys. | 14:02 |
| MacSlow | hi | 14:02 |
| pitti | tedg: so, sms is moot then :) | 14:02 |
| pitti | so, everyone settled back home after the sprint? :) | 14:02 |
| tedg | Oh, were you guys going to SMS me? I actually can't get txt messages. | 14:02 |
| * pitti does a group hug | 14:02 | |
| pitti | tedg: I did already; oh, good to know | 14:02 |
| tedg | They charge for $0.10 for messages that you receive, and then spammers get your number.... annoying. | 14:03 |
| kwwii | pitti: just as a note, I no longer have to attend the meeting if there is nothing for me (but you couldn't know that I guess) | 14:03 |
| mvo | they charge you for stuff you receive?!? | 14:03 |
| pitti | kwwii: I remember; well, so do you have something to discuss or need any help with your specs? | 14:03 |
| tedg | mvo, in the US, we invented greedy capitalism ;) | 14:03 |
| kwwii | pitti: nope, not really, but I'll hang around anyway :-) | 14:03 |
| pitti | kwwii: https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/hardy/+specs has three specs for you which are all not even approved; I take it they are all defered? | 14:03 |
| kwwii | pitti: nope, it is more a matter that scott has not approved them | 14:04 |
| === \sh_away is now known as \sh | ||
| kwwii | the scope of them changed from "change everything" to "change a little" so there is not a lot of work involved | 14:04 |
| pitti | kwwii: ok; so as long as you don't block on finding something to blacksmith packging for you, that's fine | 14:04 |
| kwwii | right | 14:05 |
| pitti | so, the only two agenda items that I collected from the reports are my own :) | 14:05 |
| pitti | * jockey testing (nvidia, ati, usability) (pitti) | 14:05 |
| pitti | * app-install-data-commercial | 14:05 |
| pitti | anything else from anyone? | 14:05 |
| MacSlow | I just have a general question... | 14:05 |
| pitti | just shoot :) | 14:06 |
| Seveas | *pang* | 14:06 |
| * pitti rubs his ears | 14:06 | |
| MacSlow | regarding how to proceed, if patches I sent upstream (to bugzilla) are left un-applied... thus not landing in our .debs when we (you) grab them from upstream | 14:06 |
| seb128 | whenever you ask for it | 14:07 |
| pitti | MacSlow: I think we should always apply our own patches immediately and upload them, so that lots of people can test them | 14:07 |
| mvo | MacSlow: just ping someone of the people doing the packaging and they include them | 14:07 |
| seb128 | I can do an upload with those patch or sponsor you | 14:07 |
| pitti | we should always immediately send patches upstream, but not block on them to apply and release | 14:07 |
| seb128 | pitti: not always, for the rhythmbox changes I was waiting because upstream had comments, etc | 14:07 |
| MacSlow | initially I always incorporated them into patches found in <package>/debian/patches... but we want to keep the delta as small aspossible and be nicer with upstream and contribute more directly | 14:08 |
| pitti | right, of course; if you are actually working *with* upstream on the patch | 14:08 |
| seb128 | MacSlow: usually apply to the package when you think it's ready and attach it upstream as soon as possible so we benefit from their comments, etc | 14:08 |
| MacSlow | pitti, well in all case I refer too I am directly working with upstream | 14:08 |
| pitti | MacSlow: IMHO, as soon as seb and you are confident that it works, get it uploaded | 14:08 |
| seb128 | what pitti said | 14:09 |
| MacSlow | seb128, pitti: ok | 14:09 |
| pitti | MacSlow: it doesn't hurt if we drop our patch two weeks later and adopt a differnet solution upstream, as long as we are before FF and all that | 14:09 |
| MacSlow | seb128, e.g. the "browser-by-default" for rb works and sticks to conventions found in other rb-plugins regarding gconf-key places | 14:10 |
| seb128 | MacSlow: I'm happy to upload this one | 14:10 |
| seb128 | let's discuss it on #ubuntu-desktop | 14:10 |
| MacSlow | mvo, same goes for the action-menu patch for libwnck | 14:10 |
| pitti | oh, right; if you patch something that changes the user's conf, then we need to be more careful of course | 14:10 |
| MacSlow | seb128, after the meeting?! | 14:10 |
| seb128 | MacSlow: yes | 14:10 |
| MacSlow | pitti, in case of the "browser-by-default" it just add stuff not change any existing key | 14:11 |
| MacSlow | ok... this issue is clarified for me then | 14:11 |
| pitti | so, unfortunately at the sprint there weren't a lot of people/hw with Ati/Nvidia cards; I would appreciate if you could test jockey a bit (new version just uploaded) and give me some feedback whether it works for you and which hw you have | 14:12 |
| pitti | I'm particualrly interested in fglrx, nvidia, and WinModems (sl-modem-daemon) | 14:12 |
| MacSlow | pitti, hm.... ok I can update my desktop/nvidia-box to hardy | 14:12 |
| pitti | bcm43xx will be re-added in some days | 14:12 |
| pitti | MacSlow: if it helps, I can provide gutsy packages, too | 14:13 |
| MacSlow | pitti, does the restricted-driver stuff already cover nvidia 169.09? | 14:13 |
| pitti | (it's just a different Recommends:, they should actually install fine on gutsy | 14:13 |
| pitti | MacSlow: yes, it should; we ship the necessary glue files in linux-restricted-modules itself, not jockey | 14:13 |
| MacSlow | ok | 14:13 |
| pitti | mpt: how much can we bother you about UI reviews already? | 14:14 |
| pitti | mpt: jockey doesn't look terribly different from r-m, but it did change a bit, and I'd appreciate getting some complaints :) | 14:14 |
| mpt | pitti, my current allocation is 2 days/week on Ubuntu, though I think sabdfl would like to reduce that | 14:15 |
| mpt | by all means e-mail me, or even better, assign a bug to me if appropriate | 14:15 |
| pitti | so, if we have something to review for you, is it ok to just mail you or do we need to ask the LP guys for 'stealing' you? | 14:15 |
| pitti | mpt: alright, sounds good; thanks | 14:15 |
| mvo | pitti: I can give you feedback after the meeting on ati r500 | 14:16 |
| pitti | thanks | 14:16 |
| pitti | so, unless anyone else wants to ask/discuss something, shall we quickly run through the specs? | 14:17 |
| mpt | pitti, or even e-mail ubuntu-desktop@ or ubuntu-devel@, because it'll be educational for the comments to be public | 14:17 |
| mvo | pitti: what is this item about app-install-data-commercial? | 14:17 |
| pitti | mpt: ah, sounds good | 14:17 |
| pitti | mvo: I wanted to handle that after the meeting actually | 14:18 |
| pitti | mvo: just wondering if there is anything written about it somewhere? | 14:18 |
| pitti | mvo: Gerry wants us to add a new package to it, and I wasn't sure which information we need and where to put it | 14:18 |
| pitti | mvo: but I think we can do that afterwards | 14:18 |
| mvo | pitti: ok | 14:19 |
| pitti | so, https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/hardy/+specs -- we have three weeks to go :) | 14:19 |
| mvo | pitti: this should all be handed over to the ISV department | 14:19 |
| pitti | Riddell, your's seem to be in good shape | 14:19 |
| pitti | mvo: I'd prefer that, too | 14:19 |
| Riddell | pitti: yes, they're both making good progress | 14:20 |
| pitti | for my own ones, partition-management lags behind; if someone happens to be bored and interested, I always appreciate help :) | 14:20 |
| pitti | but I think I can get the most important bits into FF (partition renaming and fsck on boot) | 14:20 |
| pitti | mvo: networkless-installation-fixes seems to be behind? | 14:20 |
| mvo | pitti: yes, its behind, I had hoped to work on it this week, but the plague struck | 14:21 |
| pitti | argh sprint plague argh | 14:21 |
| mvo | pitti: I still think it can be done in the remainaing time | 14:21 |
| pitti | mvo: but it's not blocked for something external or other people? | 14:21 |
| mvo | pitti: no | 14:22 |
| pitti | (this isn't supposed to be a "you suck" list, but rather a "who needs help from whom" :) ) | 14:22 |
| pitti | mvo: packaging-tools-usability isn't even approved yet; does that need some review from people like mpt, or jsut blocked on Scott? | 14:22 |
| mvo | pitti: the open issue is that we should have a way to show the support status of the packages | 14:23 |
| mvo | pitti: now this is not easy as some packages are support for 3y some for 5y etc | 14:23 |
| pitti | ooh, I agree; this creates too much confusion and false expectations | 14:24 |
| mvo | pitti: but there is currently no list (to my knowledge) | 14:24 |
| mvo | unless this list is available, this particular bit can not be implemented | 14:24 |
| pitti | mvo: can't we use some germinate trick for that? | 14:24 |
| pitti | i. e. everything that's in the server seed is 5 years, rest is 3? | 14:24 |
| pitti | mvo: I also fell that we should point out universe/multiverse bits harder | 14:25 |
| mvo | if that is the official policy, then yes | 14:25 |
| mvo | pitti: point out harder in what way? | 14:25 |
| pitti | it's very hard to tell ATM which unsupported packages you have installed and thus could bite you (security, support, and updates) | 14:25 |
| pitti | mvo: I'm not sure how to point it out TBH | 14:25 |
| pitti | I just know that nowadays people regard unvierse packages as pretty much "Ubuntu" | 14:26 |
| pitti | and loudly complain/blog/shout if we don't put a new microversion of $my_favourite_universe_pet_packge into universe-updates every other month | 14:26 |
| pitti | (or keep clamav up to date, etc.) | 14:27 |
| mvo | right | 14:27 |
| pitti | mvo: 3/5 years> can you talk to Colin about that? | 14:27 |
| pitti | I think germinate can help us here | 14:27 |
| Riddell | mvo: mind that some packages are also 18 months only | 14:27 |
| mvo | that is because we give people the expectation that universe is pretty well supported by enabling it by default for example | 14:28 |
| pitti | ^ right | 14:28 |
| mvo | pitti: yes, please make that a action item | 14:29 |
| pitti | Riddell: ah, like packages in the Kubuntu seeds? | 14:29 |
| mvo | pitti: I will talk to him about it | 14:29 |
| pitti | mvo: done | 14:29 |
| pitti | thanks | 14:29 |
| Riddell | pitti: mm | 14:29 |
| mvo | pitti: or stuff in main but not "desktop" | 14:29 |
| pitti | any other bright ideas about that universe presentatino problem? | 14:29 |
| pitti | mvo: we should make update-manager increasingly more whining about installing universe the older a release gets :-P | 14:30 |
| pitti | "Best before: see backside" or so | 14:30 |
| mvo | what can people expect from universe? is there [ ] no support [ ] some support [ ] full support | 14:31 |
| mvo | for security updates? | 14:31 |
| pitti | some security support | 14:31 |
| pitti | and some updates for popular packages | 14:31 |
| Riddell | unrealiable support | 14:31 |
| mvo | so only for very critical ones? | 14:31 |
| pitti | but none at all for 95% of packages | 14:31 |
| pitti | mvo: it's not directly related to severity; more to popularity | 14:31 |
| tedg | Can we say something like "community support"? | 14:31 |
| pitti | e. g. gstreamer codecs will get updates | 14:32 |
| MacSlow | mvo, pitti: isn't the ubuntu-logo infront of a package in synatpic enough indication of the support-state? | 14:32 |
| mvo | if we don't provide security support for 95% of universe, then that is certainly something we need to message very clearly | 14:32 |
| pitti | and some people now take care of clamav | 14:32 |
| pitti | MacSlow: indication, yes; but apparently not enough | 14:32 |
| pitti | tedg: well, that's even more fuzzy IMHO | 14:32 |
| pitti | mvo: do you think (for hardy+1) we could have update-notifier check our Ubuntu CVE database, and give a warning about unresolved stuff in universe packages? | 14:33 |
| mvo | pitti: yes, I think so | 14:34 |
| pitti | i. e. a notification for installed software, and a big fat warning when trying to install it | 14:34 |
| mvo | is there a universe-security team? | 14:35 |
| pitti | that won't help for serious bugs that are in the release, but it might help to keep people's feed a bit more dry | 14:35 |
| mvo | motu based? | 14:35 |
| pitti | mvo: yes, there is | 14:35 |
| pitti | mvo: but AFAIR our security team (Kees/Jamie) still do the complete tracking | 14:35 |
| pitti | and we have that tracking in machine readable format | 14:35 |
| mvo | but it can not keep up? | 14:35 |
| pitti | mvo: nope (can't/don't really want) | 14:36 |
| pitti | mvo: the very reason why we keep stuff in universe is that there is so much crack in it which is entirely unmaintainable for 3 or even 1.5 years | 14:36 |
| pitti | ok, let's move that to the ML, time is pressing | 14:37 |
| mvo | ok, mailinglist sounds good | 14:37 |
| pitti | mvo: can you CC: ubuntu-devel in your mail about determining support status? | 14:38 |
| pitti | MacSlow: hardy-desktop-effects-profiles and hardy-sparkle seem to need more time/attention | 14:38 |
| pitti | MacSlow: do you need help/should we kick one to hardy+1/will it likely land on time? | 14:39 |
| MacSlow | pitti, sparkle and shine are allowed to miss ff | 14:39 |
| MacSlow | pitti, the profiles stuff is a bit hard | 14:39 |
| pitti | ah, ok | 14:39 |
| MacSlow | pitti, I'm currently a bit unsure if keybuk said the profiles stuff can slip to hardy+1 or not | 14:40 |
| pitti | MacSlow: ok; TBH I'm not familiar with that, so if you think you won't get everything ready, can you please talk with Scott directly? | 14:40 |
| MacSlow | the sprint week was a bit hectic and I got some shift-arounds of things | 14:41 |
| MacSlow | pitti, sure | 14:41 |
| pitti | ok, thanks | 14:41 |
| pitti | hardy-hardware-detection is currently marked as 'not started', that's not quite true | 14:41 |
| pitti | the core bits are already done; I'll update it after the meeting | 14:41 |
| pitti | seb128: pppoeconf-gui looks untouched enough to not be something for hardy? | 14:42 |
| seb128 | pitti: gnome-system-tools does pppoe now | 14:42 |
| pitti | oh,neat | 14:42 |
| seb128 | pitti: so the spec is deprecated, or rather just it's limited to make sure than g-s-t work correctly | 14:43 |
| pitti | seb128: you think that's good enough for DSL users? | 14:43 |
| pitti | rockin' | 14:43 |
| seb128 | yes | 14:43 |
| pitti | seb128: can you please update the status and whiteboard of it? | 14:43 |
| pitti | 'beta available' sounds appropriate then? | 14:43 |
| seb128 | pitti: sure | 14:43 |
| seb128 | yes | 14:43 |
| pitti | and talk to scott to get it approved? | 14:43 |
| seb128 | ok | 14:43 |
| pitti | tedg: what's the status of screensaver-review? | 14:44 |
| tedg | I talked to Scott about it at the sprint, so I need to write up everything that he said. | 14:45 |
| tedg | Then we need to come up with a critera for choosing screensavers, I'm trying to work with Debian on that. | 14:45 |
| pitti | tedg: so is 'drafting' reflecting the status correctly? | 14:45 |
| tedg | The current way is "Mark said so" -- we need something more robust :) | 14:46 |
| tedg | pitti: yes, that's a good status. | 14:46 |
| pitti | in this case it doesn't look very 'hardyable'? | 14:46 |
| pitti | oh, the 'Mark' approval overriding :) | 14:46 |
| tedg | I'm not sure, it is a pretty easy spec, mostly moving around screensavers from -data to -data-extras. | 14:47 |
| pitti | tedg: are you and TheMuso getting along with the remainign audio jumble pieces? please let me know if you need anything from me wrt. pulse | 14:47 |
| pitti | tedg: screensaver> oh, ok; it sounded a bit more complex | 14:47 |
| tedg | pitti: Yes, I haven't talked with TheMuso yet... need to do that. | 14:48 |
| pitti | tedg: can you please talk to Mark and Scott to get this spec into shape? we should at least know what we need for hardy | 14:48 |
| tedg | pitti: Yes, right now it's mostly a "typing problem". I plan on having it to Scott for Monday. | 14:49 |
| pitti | thanks | 14:50 |
| pitti | so, I think we are through | 14:50 |
| pitti | for review, my collected action items: | 14:50 |
| pitti | ACTION: mvo to talk to cjwatson about using germinate to determine length of package support (3/5 years, 18 months) and mailing u-devel@ about improving u-n to warn about universe packages with known security holes | 14:50 |
| pitti | ACTION: Seb to talk to Scott for updating pppoeconf-gui spec status for the feature provided by gnome-system-tools | 14:50 |
| pitti | ACTION: tedg to talk to Scott and Mark about screensaver-review; this is currently way too underdefined for getting it into hardy | 14:50 |
| seb128 | pitti: thanks | 14:50 |
| pitti | anything else on your hearts and minds? | 14:51 |
| tedg | Nope. Looks good. | 14:51 |
| pitti | I'll send the report to distro-team@ in some minutes then, and then stop impostering Scott | 14:51 |
| pitti | thanks everyone! | 14:51 |
| pitti | have a good day | 14:52 |
| Riddell | remember to start situps tomorrow! | 14:52 |
| pitti | right! everyone to attend! | 14:52 |
| cjwatson | mvo: I already have an action to do that germinate/server thing for Nick Barcet, BTW | 14:52 |
| pitti | the grown muscles in my arms already start to weaken :) | 14:52 |
| cjwatson | so I don't need another :-) | 14:52 |
| pitti | hey cjwatson; ah, good to know | 14:52 |
| mvo | cjwatson: heh :) ok | 14:53 |
| MacSlow | so long everybody | 14:54 |
| * pitti hugs the team | 14:54 | |
| * mvo waves | 14:54 | |
| mpt | impostering, eh | 14:55 |
| Riddell | impersonating | 14:58 |
| pitti | I guess that's what I meant, thanks | 15:02 |
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| gaurish | when is the next meet? | 16:08 |
| pochu | @schedule | 16:15 |
| ubotu | Schedule for Etc/UTC: 01 Feb 20:00: MOTU | 13 Feb 22:30: Forum Council | 20 Feb 01:00: TriLoCo-Midwest | 16:15 |
| gaurish | @ubotu | 16:16 |
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| arualavi | ahir al final amb lo del Vbimbo viag fer una cosa que suggereixen a https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IrcTeam/OperatorGuidelines | 19:41 |
| arualavi | sorry | 19:41 |
| arualavi | wrong channel :-/ | 19:41 |
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| emgent | @schedule Rome | 23:21 |
| emgent | @now | 23:21 |
| emgent | bot offline :( | 23:21 |
| Seveas | yeah | 23:21 |
| Seveas | sucky colo provider having routing problems for the umpteenth time | 23:21 |
| PriceChild | emgent, replacements are incoming | 23:22 |
| emgent | argh | 23:22 |
| emgent | ok thanks PriceChild :) | 23:22 |
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