[01:40] ls [01:40] grr [01:40] rrrraaawww! === Varka_ is now known as Varka === asac_ is now known as asac === lamont` is now known as lamont === cjwatson_ is now known as cjwatson === doko_ is now known as doko === cjwatson_ is now known as cjwatson === neversfelde_ is now known as neversfelde === cjwatson_ is now known as cjwatson [13:56] hello [13:56] heya pitti [13:56] @schedule Rome [13:56] Schedule for Europe/Rome: 01 Feb 21:00: MOTU | 13 Feb 23:30: Forum Council | 20 Feb 02:00: TriLoCo-Midwest [13:57] * mvo waves [13:57] * Hobbsee waves to pitti and mvo [13:57] * Hobbsee hides from any lightning bolts [13:57] * Hobbsee keeps her watering can handy, for putting out any more spot fires [13:58] hello [13:59] hey [13:59] hey [13:59] greetings [13:59] hi [13:59] hm, no Ted yet? [14:00] he has been known to need a text [14:00] looks like it [14:00] * pitti smses [14:01] ah fast :) [14:01] that was fast [14:01] my sms lways take ages [14:01] hey tedg [14:02] Morning guys. [14:02] hi [14:02] tedg: so, sms is moot then :) [14:02] so, everyone settled back home after the sprint? :) [14:02] Oh, were you guys going to SMS me? I actually can't get txt messages. [14:02] * pitti does a group hug [14:02] tedg: I did already; oh, good to know [14:03] They charge for $0.10 for messages that you receive, and then spammers get your number.... annoying. [14:03] pitti: just as a note, I no longer have to attend the meeting if there is nothing for me (but you couldn't know that I guess) [14:03] they charge you for stuff you receive?!? [14:03] kwwii: I remember; well, so do you have something to discuss or need any help with your specs? [14:03] mvo, in the US, we invented greedy capitalism ;) [14:03] pitti: nope, not really, but I'll hang around anyway :-) [14:03] kwwii: https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/hardy/+specs has three specs for you which are all not even approved; I take it they are all defered? [14:04] pitti: nope, it is more a matter that scott has not approved them === \sh_away is now known as \sh [14:04] the scope of them changed from "change everything" to "change a little" so there is not a lot of work involved [14:04] kwwii: ok; so as long as you don't block on finding something to blacksmith packging for you, that's fine [14:05] right [14:05] so, the only two agenda items that I collected from the reports are my own :) [14:05] * jockey testing (nvidia, ati, usability) (pitti) [14:05] * app-install-data-commercial [14:05] anything else from anyone? [14:05] I just have a general question... [14:06] just shoot :) [14:06] *pang* [14:06] * pitti rubs his ears [14:06] regarding how to proceed, if patches I sent upstream (to bugzilla) are left un-applied... thus not landing in our .debs when we (you) grab them from upstream [14:07] whenever you ask for it [14:07] MacSlow: I think we should always apply our own patches immediately and upload them, so that lots of people can test them [14:07] MacSlow: just ping someone of the people doing the packaging and they include them [14:07] I can do an upload with those patch or sponsor you [14:07] we should always immediately send patches upstream, but not block on them to apply and release [14:07] pitti: not always, for the rhythmbox changes I was waiting because upstream had comments, etc [14:08] initially I always incorporated them into patches found in /debian/patches... but we want to keep the delta as small aspossible and be nicer with upstream and contribute more directly [14:08] right, of course; if you are actually working *with* upstream on the patch [14:08] MacSlow: usually apply to the package when you think it's ready and attach it upstream as soon as possible so we benefit from their comments, etc [14:08] pitti, well in all case I refer too I am directly working with upstream [14:08] MacSlow: IMHO, as soon as seb and you are confident that it works, get it uploaded [14:09] what pitti said [14:09] seb128, pitti: ok [14:09] MacSlow: it doesn't hurt if we drop our patch two weeks later and adopt a differnet solution upstream, as long as we are before FF and all that [14:10] seb128, e.g. the "browser-by-default" for rb works and sticks to conventions found in other rb-plugins regarding gconf-key places [14:10] MacSlow: I'm happy to upload this one [14:10] let's discuss it on #ubuntu-desktop [14:10] mvo, same goes for the action-menu patch for libwnck [14:10] oh, right; if you patch something that changes the user's conf, then we need to be more careful of course [14:10] seb128, after the meeting?! [14:10] MacSlow: yes [14:11] pitti, in case of the "browser-by-default" it just add stuff not change any existing key [14:11] ok... this issue is clarified for me then [14:12] so, unfortunately at the sprint there weren't a lot of people/hw with Ati/Nvidia cards; I would appreciate if you could test jockey a bit (new version just uploaded) and give me some feedback whether it works for you and which hw you have [14:12] I'm particualrly interested in fglrx, nvidia, and WinModems (sl-modem-daemon) [14:12] pitti, hm.... ok I can update my desktop/nvidia-box to hardy [14:12] bcm43xx will be re-added in some days [14:13] MacSlow: if it helps, I can provide gutsy packages, too [14:13] pitti, does the restricted-driver stuff already cover nvidia 169.09? [14:13] (it's just a different Recommends:, they should actually install fine on gutsy [14:13] MacSlow: yes, it should; we ship the necessary glue files in linux-restricted-modules itself, not jockey [14:13] ok [14:14] mpt: how much can we bother you about UI reviews already? [14:14] mpt: jockey doesn't look terribly different from r-m, but it did change a bit, and I'd appreciate getting some complaints :) [14:15] pitti, my current allocation is 2 days/week on Ubuntu, though I think sabdfl would like to reduce that [14:15] by all means e-mail me, or even better, assign a bug to me if appropriate [14:15] so, if we have something to review for you, is it ok to just mail you or do we need to ask the LP guys for 'stealing' you? [14:15] mpt: alright, sounds good; thanks [14:16] pitti: I can give you feedback after the meeting on ati r500 [14:16] thanks [14:17] so, unless anyone else wants to ask/discuss something, shall we quickly run through the specs? [14:17] pitti, or even e-mail ubuntu-desktop@ or ubuntu-devel@, because it'll be educational for the comments to be public [14:17] pitti: what is this item about app-install-data-commercial? [14:17] mpt: ah, sounds good [14:18] mvo: I wanted to handle that after the meeting actually [14:18] mvo: just wondering if there is anything written about it somewhere? [14:18] mvo: Gerry wants us to add a new package to it, and I wasn't sure which information we need and where to put it [14:18] mvo: but I think we can do that afterwards [14:19] pitti: ok [14:19] so, https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/hardy/+specs -- we have three weeks to go :) [14:19] pitti: this should all be handed over to the ISV department [14:19] Riddell, your's seem to be in good shape [14:19] mvo: I'd prefer that, too [14:20] pitti: yes, they're both making good progress [14:20] for my own ones, partition-management lags behind; if someone happens to be bored and interested, I always appreciate help :) [14:20] but I think I can get the most important bits into FF (partition renaming and fsck on boot) [14:20] mvo: networkless-installation-fixes seems to be behind? [14:21] pitti: yes, its behind, I had hoped to work on it this week, but the plague struck [14:21] argh sprint plague argh [14:21] pitti: I still think it can be done in the remainaing time [14:21] mvo: but it's not blocked for something external or other people? [14:22] pitti: no [14:22] (this isn't supposed to be a "you suck" list, but rather a "who needs help from whom" :) ) [14:22] mvo: packaging-tools-usability isn't even approved yet; does that need some review from people like mpt, or jsut blocked on Scott? [14:23] pitti: the open issue is that we should have a way to show the support status of the packages [14:23] pitti: now this is not easy as some packages are support for 3y some for 5y etc [14:24] ooh, I agree; this creates too much confusion and false expectations [14:24] pitti: but there is currently no list (to my knowledge) [14:24] unless this list is available, this particular bit can not be implemented [14:24] mvo: can't we use some germinate trick for that? [14:24] i. e. everything that's in the server seed is 5 years, rest is 3? [14:25] mvo: I also fell that we should point out universe/multiverse bits harder [14:25] if that is the official policy, then yes [14:25] pitti: point out harder in what way? [14:25] it's very hard to tell ATM which unsupported packages you have installed and thus could bite you (security, support, and updates) [14:25] mvo: I'm not sure how to point it out TBH [14:26] I just know that nowadays people regard unvierse packages as pretty much "Ubuntu" [14:26] and loudly complain/blog/shout if we don't put a new microversion of $my_favourite_universe_pet_packge into universe-updates every other month [14:27] (or keep clamav up to date, etc.) [14:27] right [14:27] mvo: 3/5 years> can you talk to Colin about that? [14:27] I think germinate can help us here [14:27] mvo: mind that some packages are also 18 months only [14:28] that is because we give people the expectation that universe is pretty well supported by enabling it by default for example [14:28] ^ right [14:29] pitti: yes, please make that a action item [14:29] Riddell: ah, like packages in the Kubuntu seeds? [14:29] pitti: I will talk to him about it [14:29] mvo: done [14:29] thanks [14:29] pitti: mm [14:29] pitti: or stuff in main but not "desktop" [14:29] any other bright ideas about that universe presentatino problem? [14:30] mvo: we should make update-manager increasingly more whining about installing universe the older a release gets :-P [14:30] "Best before: see backside" or so [14:31] what can people expect from universe? is there [ ] no support [ ] some support [ ] full support [14:31] for security updates? [14:31] some security support [14:31] and some updates for popular packages [14:31] unrealiable support [14:31] so only for very critical ones? [14:31] but none at all for 95% of packages [14:31] mvo: it's not directly related to severity; more to popularity [14:31] Can we say something like "community support"? [14:32] e. g. gstreamer codecs will get updates [14:32] mvo, pitti: isn't the ubuntu-logo infront of a package in synatpic enough indication of the support-state? [14:32] if we don't provide security support for 95% of universe, then that is certainly something we need to message very clearly [14:32] and some people now take care of clamav [14:32] MacSlow: indication, yes; but apparently not enough [14:32] tedg: well, that's even more fuzzy IMHO [14:33] mvo: do you think (for hardy+1) we could have update-notifier check our Ubuntu CVE database, and give a warning about unresolved stuff in universe packages? [14:34] pitti: yes, I think so [14:34] i. e. a notification for installed software, and a big fat warning when trying to install it [14:35] is there a universe-security team? [14:35] that won't help for serious bugs that are in the release, but it might help to keep people's feed a bit more dry [14:35] motu based? [14:35] mvo: yes, there is [14:35] mvo: but AFAIR our security team (Kees/Jamie) still do the complete tracking [14:35] and we have that tracking in machine readable format [14:35] but it can not keep up? [14:36] mvo: nope (can't/don't really want) [14:36] mvo: the very reason why we keep stuff in universe is that there is so much crack in it which is entirely unmaintainable for 3 or even 1.5 years [14:37] ok, let's move that to the ML, time is pressing [14:37] ok, mailinglist sounds good [14:38] mvo: can you CC: ubuntu-devel in your mail about determining support status? [14:38] MacSlow: hardy-desktop-effects-profiles and hardy-sparkle seem to need more time/attention [14:39] MacSlow: do you need help/should we kick one to hardy+1/will it likely land on time? [14:39] pitti, sparkle and shine are allowed to miss ff [14:39] pitti, the profiles stuff is a bit hard [14:39] ah, ok [14:40] pitti, I'm currently a bit unsure if keybuk said the profiles stuff can slip to hardy+1 or not [14:40] MacSlow: ok; TBH I'm not familiar with that, so if you think you won't get everything ready, can you please talk with Scott directly? [14:41] the sprint week was a bit hectic and I got some shift-arounds of things [14:41] pitti, sure [14:41] ok, thanks [14:41] hardy-hardware-detection is currently marked as 'not started', that's not quite true [14:41] the core bits are already done; I'll update it after the meeting [14:42] seb128: pppoeconf-gui looks untouched enough to not be something for hardy? [14:42] pitti: gnome-system-tools does pppoe now [14:42] oh,neat [14:43] pitti: so the spec is deprecated, or rather just it's limited to make sure than g-s-t work correctly [14:43] seb128: you think that's good enough for DSL users? [14:43] rockin' [14:43] yes [14:43] seb128: can you please update the status and whiteboard of it? [14:43] 'beta available' sounds appropriate then? [14:43] pitti: sure [14:43] yes [14:43] and talk to scott to get it approved? [14:43] ok [14:44] tedg: what's the status of screensaver-review? [14:45] I talked to Scott about it at the sprint, so I need to write up everything that he said. [14:45] Then we need to come up with a critera for choosing screensavers, I'm trying to work with Debian on that. [14:45] tedg: so is 'drafting' reflecting the status correctly? [14:46] The current way is "Mark said so" -- we need something more robust :) [14:46] pitti: yes, that's a good status. [14:46] in this case it doesn't look very 'hardyable'? [14:46] oh, the 'Mark' approval overriding :) [14:47] I'm not sure, it is a pretty easy spec, mostly moving around screensavers from -data to -data-extras. [14:47] tedg: are you and TheMuso getting along with the remainign audio jumble pieces? please let me know if you need anything from me wrt. pulse [14:47] tedg: screensaver> oh, ok; it sounded a bit more complex [14:48] pitti: Yes, I haven't talked with TheMuso yet... need to do that. [14:48] tedg: can you please talk to Mark and Scott to get this spec into shape? we should at least know what we need for hardy [14:49] pitti: Yes, right now it's mostly a "typing problem". I plan on having it to Scott for Monday. [14:50] thanks [14:50] so, I think we are through [14:50] for review, my collected action items: [14:50] ACTION: mvo to talk to cjwatson about using germinate to determine length of package support (3/5 years, 18 months) and mailing u-devel@ about improving u-n to warn about universe packages with known security holes [14:50] ACTION: Seb to talk to Scott for updating pppoeconf-gui spec status for the feature provided by gnome-system-tools [14:50] ACTION: tedg to talk to Scott and Mark about screensaver-review; this is currently way too underdefined for getting it into hardy [14:50] pitti: thanks [14:51] anything else on your hearts and minds? [14:51] Nope. Looks good. [14:51] I'll send the report to distro-team@ in some minutes then, and then stop impostering Scott [14:51] thanks everyone! [14:52] have a good day [14:52] remember to start situps tomorrow! [14:52] right! everyone to attend! [14:52] mvo: I already have an action to do that germinate/server thing for Nick Barcet, BTW [14:52] the grown muscles in my arms already start to weaken :) [14:52] so I don't need another :-) [14:52] hey cjwatson; ah, good to know [14:53] cjwatson: heh :) ok [14:54] so long everybody [14:54] * pitti hugs the team [14:54] * mvo waves [14:55] impostering, eh [14:58] impersonating [15:02] I guess that's what I meant, thanks === PriceChild is now known as pmdgandalf_ === pmdgandalf_ is now known as PriceChild [16:08] when is the next meet? [16:15] @schedule [16:15] Schedule for Etc/UTC: 01 Feb 20:00: MOTU | 13 Feb 22:30: Forum Council | 20 Feb 01:00: TriLoCo-Midwest [16:16] @ubotu === nalioth is now known as to === to is now known as nalioth === johnc4511-laptop is now known as johnc4510-laptop [19:41] ahir al final amb lo del Vbimbo viag fer una cosa que suggereixen a https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IrcTeam/OperatorGuidelines [19:41] sorry [19:41] wrong channel :-/ === aRyn is now known as |Aryn| === |Aryn| is now known as aRyn === \sh is now known as \sh_away === bmk789_ is now known as bmk789 [23:21] @schedule Rome [23:21] @now [23:21] bot offline :( [23:21] yeah [23:21] sucky colo provider having routing problems for the umpteenth time [23:22] emgent, replacements are incoming [23:22] argh [23:22] ok thanks PriceChild :)