=== johnc4511 is now known as johnc4510
jack_spratthi people, im here to ask about the cd stand on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DIYMarketing - id like to know who the author is and/or whether im allowed to make derivative copies of it and if i need to attribute etc14:17
jack_sprattcan anyone help with this?14:18
jack_sprattI've already emailed a few people about this who were listed on that page but have had no response in 4 days14:20
jack_sprattso if things continue like this am I to assume that I am allowed to make derivative works without any attribution then? no license is attached to the .svgs or included with the files14:31
jack_sprattpretty quiet in here eh?14:59
* emmajane looks around...14:59
jack_sprattdont spose wither of you know the licensing terms or authors of the cd stand hosted here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DIYMarketing ??15:04
monkeeI'm almost willing to bet it's going to be a creative commons type of license15:17
monkeebut it's best  to track down the original contributor15:17
jack_sprattok, ive been trying15:24
jack_spratti emailed a few people days ago but no resonse, and im not sure who holds the license, if one person does15:24
jack_sprattcan a cc license apply to an unamed group of people?15:24
jack_spratti dont know15:24
monkeeidk either15:25
=== monkee is now known as Monkee_Of_evil
jack_sprattif ive made valid attempts but failed to contact the license holders am i able to go ahead with derivatives do you think?15:26
Monkee_Of_evilIANAL so.....maybe?15:26
Monkee_Of_evili honestly don't know15:27
jack_sprattianal? please define15:27
Monkee_Of_evil( I Am Not A Lawyer )15:27
jack_sprattoh i see15:27
jack_sprattoh well, thqanks anyway15:27
Monkee_Of_evilKeep us posted though15:27
jack_sprattill try15:29
kbrooksmay be OT. but whoa, terribly nice, a user made a ubuntu installation work for his/her mom http://ctolpin.googlepages.com/momfriendly.png20:26
kbrooksisn't that good for ubuntu?20:29
Monkee_Of_evilI was half expecting to see an emulated XP interface20:29
kbrooksMonkee_Of_evil, partially emulated, but isn't firefox and openoffice mostly what people like this user's mom need?20:32
Monkee_Of_evili know if I were try to try to get my mom on Ubuntu I would *bare minimum* have to explain that she won't be using "MS Office"20:35
Monkee_Of_evilbut that she can do the same thing20:35
Monkee_Of_evili dont think i would have to go so far as adjusting the UI for her though20:35
Monkee_Of_evilbut then, she's not a computer-retard either20:35
Monkee_Of_evilI think what MOST users need for ubuntu is just an understanding that there is life outside of redmond, and that while 90% of the time the concepts they already know how to apply in the windows world, can be applied just as easily on Ubuntu20:38
Monkee_Of_evilI switched my neighbors recently and the ONLY problem they had after I set the OS up for them was that they couldn't figure out why no music came up on myspace20:39
Monkee_Of_evilwhich turned out to be a broken flash player20:39
Monkee_Of_evilas far as using it, they love it20:40
Monkee_Of_eviland could care less about XP anymore20:40
Monkee_Of_evileven though I do have a virtual machine set up w/ an XP rom20:40
Monkee_Of_evilthey dont even use it20:40
emmajaneMonkee_Of_evil: I just renamed the OOo Applications menu item to "MS Office" for my dad.20:41
Monkee_Of_evilI generally dont install ubuntu on computers of people who cant understand that there are other operating systems out there.20:42
Monkee_Of_evilmainly because i dont know many people like that20:42
emmajaneMost of the time the ones I deal with don't care about the OS, they care about the apps.20:43
Monkee_Of_evilbut also because the few that I have tried to do that for get pissed off because their "internet doesnt work" when in reality they're trying to view IE-only websites.20:43
emmajane(1) can I check my email (2) can I write up a flyer for my group (3) can I play Scrabble online?20:43
Monkee_Of_evilor because the user interface was "stupid looking" and also the ever popular "well i cant play x y or z game once a month, so i wont deal with it at all"20:44
emmajaneI don't deal with gamers, fortunately.20:44
emmajanei deal mostly with retired grannies. :)20:44
Monkee_Of_evili envy you20:44
=== samiam_ is now known as samiam
Monkee_Of_evilso many gamers nowadays20:45
emmajaneMonkee_Of_evil: I am selective. :)20:45
Monkee_Of_evilI have the most success converting porno-freaks to ubuntu actually20:45
* emmajane nods.20:45
emmajaneI've got those too.20:45
* emmajane is only prejudiced against the gamers...20:46
Monkee_Of_evilthe "well FF isnt directly tied to your OS like IE is, and then of course there really arent that many viruses and such even out there for desktop linux boxes..."20:46
Monkee_Of_evilthats the selling point20:46
Monkee_Of_eviltheir eyes get as big as you can imagine and they're like "so i can browse the net for poooooooooorn without it trashing my computer? FUCK XP!"20:47
emmajane"Nelson Mandela did the promo video. He's cool. Want to see it?"20:47
emmajanethat and, "It's more secure, it's harder to have other people track your actions which means you can do whatever you need to online"20:47
Monkee_Of_evilI generally neglect to let them know that disabling auto-installed activex controls in IE tends to prevent most spyware/trojans20:47
* emmajane grins.20:48
emmajanewell, d'uh.20:48
emmajanethere's being nice and then there's being fair. ;)20:48
Monkee_Of_evilI call it "FOSS Advocacy" and "Covert user rescue operations"20:50
Monkee_Of_evilFOSS Advocacy for people who know enough to make an educated decision20:50
desertcemmajane: In what way are you dealing with retired grannies?  Sounds interesting.20:50
emmajanedesertc: a few different ways. I've got "clients" that I give at home computer help to.20:50
Monkee_Of_eviland Covert user rescue operations for those who have become one with ms-borg.20:51
desertcI posted a bunch of ubuntu flyers all over the compusa store near where I live.  The stores are all going out of business and the employees have stopped caring what is up on the walls.20:51
emmajanedesertc: and then I also run a tech conference locally which was of major interest to a Life Long Learning org (membership restricted to 55+ years of age). They bulk-bought a bunch of tickets last year.20:51
desertcemmajane: now that conference is interesting.  where is that, and how do I get involved?20:52
kbrookshehe, I sparked discussion.20:52
emmajanedesertc: i think the trick to doing local activism is to target a group.20:52
emmajanedesertc: www.hicktech.com20:52
Monkee_Of_evilkbrooks: firestarter! ;)20:52
emmajanedesertc: for example: a local charity like the United Way.20:52
kbrooksMonkee_Of_evil, what do you say to advocate FOSS? and what do you do to get the "covert user rescue operations" in swing?20:53
desertcemmajane: I've tried... but they all seem to have been co-op'd by other groups20:53
Monkee_Of_evilwhen I hear people bitching about windows...20:53
emmajanedesertc: what have you tried?20:54
Monkee_Of_evilI walk up ( regardless of if I know them ) and start talking about FOSS20:54
emmajanedesertc: tell me about your marketing strategy. ;)20:54
Monkee_Of_evilI also blog about it20:54
Monkee_Of_eviland uhh20:54
Monkee_Of_evilhand out flyers20:54
Monkee_Of_eviland all sorts of stuff20:54
kbrooksMonkee_Of_evil, what do you _say_?20:54
desertcemmajane: would take a long time, I have been doing a ton of work20:54
Monkee_Of_evilIt depends20:54
Monkee_Of_evilI generally point out a few things20:54
Monkee_Of_evilfirst I explain the whole Free as in Free Speech / Free as in Free Beer thing20:55
Monkee_Of_evilgenerally talk about Open Office first20:55
Monkee_Of_evilI tend to let the person I'm talking to lead the conversation as far as "what I say"20:55
emmajanedesertc: I spend about 3-500 hours a year advocating for increased use of tech within my own community and on top of my regular job. Typically it can still be broken out into a few different "campaigns" though.20:55
kbrooksMonkee_Of_evil, Can I see your blog?20:56
* kbrooks reads20:56
Monkee_Of_evilThe other one is on myspace....20:56
Monkee_Of_evilI've just started blogging about Open Source20:57
Monkee_Of_evilso there's not TOO much up there20:57
desertcemmajane: When I contact these places, they are fine listening to my advocacy, but when it comes time to doing something, they balk.  Most are fine receiving a hand out and hearing about no-cost resources, but they don't want to commit themselves to doing anything - even allowing themselves to be available for a bit of time.20:57
Monkee_Of_evilI also maintain the Houston Team's Linux Gaming page:20:57
emmajanedesertc: have you asked about getting a space to talk at an AGM?20:58
desertcemmajane: I think I could summarize all the responses into one: "We are fine already with our current technology solutions."20:58
emmajanedesertc: many will have workshops related to their AGM. A very specific session on, OOo, for example, might be well received.20:58
emmajanedesertc: Do they think you're trying to sell them something?20:58
desertcemmajane: It does seem to be like they are rejecting a sales person, even when I am making it clear I am doing the work pro-bono and the software is no-cost.20:59
emmajanedesertc: *nod*20:59
emmajanedesertc: What kinds of organizations have you been targetting?21:00
emmajanedesertc: I've had good success with organizations that give out funding to impoverished individuals. The advantage that Ubuntu has is that it has *no value* and therefore doesn't affect the other funding these people are receiving.21:00
desertcHiger Education, Libraries, High Schools...21:00
emmajanedesertc: high schools are a waste of time.21:01
emmajanedesertc: target kids through after school programs.21:01
desertcWhat afterschool programs?21:01
emmajanedesertc: high schools are locked into contracts and pay per computer regardless of what software is installed. they'd be *crazy* do do anything else.21:01
emmajanee.g. a computer club.21:01
emmajaneor the year book committee.21:01
desertcYeah, I contacted all the advisors of the HS computer clubs21:02
emmajaneLibraries are generally approachable. Do you know Jessamyn West?21:02
desertcWho is Jessamyn West?21:02
emmajanejust looking for a video for you21:02
emmajaneshe's a librarian and a very good FOSS advocate.21:02
desertcYes, I have read that site briefly21:03
desertcSome librarians can do projects because they are already on the inside21:03
desertcIt's very difficult to try and effect change within the library as a citizen21:03
emmajanesame with schools.21:04
emmajaneyou've picked two *very*hard* markets to break into.21:04
Monkee_Of_evilcity council meetings are always open21:04
emmajaneDo you have a personal connection to the education/higher ed/library sector?21:05
desertcWell, it shouldn't be like that in libraries, since they are supposed to be a public resource.  That experience left me somewhat bitter about trying to help out public resources.21:05
Monkee_Of_evilpushing for the use of FOSS in the education sector is probably THE most important way to solve bug #121:05
emmajaneMonkee_Of_evil: again, *hard*work* IT staff rarely receive enough funding to be able to support a system they don't know about.21:05
emmajaneMonkee_Of_evil: I disagree.21:05
Monkee_Of_evilHow so?21:05
emmajaneMonkee_Of_evil: It's way too hard. There are better back doors than to target schools directly.21:06
desertcMonkee_Of_evil: It would be very difficult to prove that statement.21:06
emmajanedesertc: how big is your community? What's are the demographics of it?21:07
desertcemmajane: So what do you recommend?  You said AGM, what is that?21:07
emmajaneWhat are the demographics, rather. (My hands get ahead of my head in the typing department)21:07
kbrooksdesertc, annual general meeting 21:07
emmajanedesertc: Annual General Meeting. Every not-for-profit organization is required to have one (generally by law, but it will depend on where you live).21:07
desertcso you think simply going straight to the non-profits and asking to present is a good way to get started21:08
kbrooks<emmajane> Monkee_Of_evil: It's way too hard. There are better back doors than to target schools directly. # What are these?21:08
emmajaneIt has been successful for me. :)21:08
desertcI would not disagree with that conclusion.21:08
emmajanekbrooks: (1) go to the kids directly and parents directly21:09
desertcI have not given that much consideration21:09
emmajanedesertc: the "no value" part is good for "end users"21:09
emmajanedesertc: the "no licensing fee" is good for the org itself.21:09
desertcno value?  you mean no cost?21:09
emmajaneyes, "no cost"21:09
emmajanebut it's the "value" of the received donation.21:10
=== mrmonday_ is now known as MrM
desertcyeah, okay, I can find out some of the non-profits in town and contact them for presentations21:10
emmajanefor example: someone on disability or welfare gets a donated item worth $200. they potentially *lose* $200 from their monthly allowance from the government.21:10
emmajanedesertc: Locally our LUG works with the United Way to build Ubuntu computers that are then shipped into the kids who can't afford computers. This is another great way to promote Ubuntu within the school system.21:11
kbrooks<emmajane> for example: someone on disability or welfare gets a donated item worth $200. they potentially *lose* $200 from their monthly allowance from the government. # is that logically because they can  sell it to get $200?21:12
emmajanekbrooks: To be honest, I'm not entirely sure.21:12
desertcThere is an organization here in town which does that already with donated computers.  I suppose I should focus on presentations.21:12
emmajanedesertc: do they ship with Ubuntu?21:13
emmajanecheck with them to see if you can work with them to do the advocacy part.21:13
desertcI suppose I was hoping that I would get engaged with deploying technical solutions.  Though, that is probably why people see me as selling them on services.21:13
desertcemmajane: Yeap, I did - they have a pretty well organized groups, since they offer no-cost computers to their helpers.21:14
emmajanekbrooks: also in terms of schools: not starting with the desktop platforms is a good intro. e.g. Using Moodle (an open source e-learning platform) instead of WebCT or Blackboard or the other veryveryvery expensive systems.21:14
desertcemmajane: yep, moodle is the big one21:14
Monkee_Of_evilFUCK WEBCT21:15
* emmajane nods to desertc. I absolutely think this is what people are hearing re. selling services.21:15
Monkee_Of_evilI hate that piece of shit21:15
emmajaneMonkee_Of_evil: haha.21:15
desertcemmajane: I've suggested to the Edubuntu team that they include moodle in the CD21:15
emmajaneMonkee_Of_evil: most teachers would say the same thing.21:15
emmajanedesertc: I'm still trying to figure out the best way to be an advocate AND earn a living.21:16
emmajanedesertc: It's a very delicate balance.21:16
desertcSo just focus on the presentations.  That'd be a good way for me to increase my communication skills anyway.21:16
emmajanedesertc: I do a LOT of web work and my standard line isn't that it's free as in freedom (they don't care, they're hiring me to tinker for them), but it *is* handy for them to know that other developers know about this system so they're not locked into a single solution provider/company.21:17
desertcAny other advice?  Seems like you have had a lot of success with reaching out to non-profits.21:17
emmajanedesertc: You might also want to check and see if there's a local toastmasters organization to practice the presentations.21:17
emmajanedesertc: people will start coming to you with questions if you can figure out your platform.21:18
desertcyeap - though TM is very difficult - at least for me21:18
emmajanekbrooks: your soap box. :)21:18
emmajanekbrooks: a message... etc.21:19
emmajanedesertc: *nod* it's not for everyone, that's for sure.21:19
desertctrying to write and memorize a speech per meeting... hard to keep up with it21:19
emmajanedesertc: your library might also be willing to offer workshops if you wanted to teach them.21:21
kbrooksdesertc, why do you want to memorize? why can't you read?21:21
emmajanedesertc: some libraries are quite involved with the community and have an "adult learning centre"21:21
emmajanekbrooks: that's not the point of toastmasters21:21
kbrooksdesertc, errr... from the paper 21:21
emmajanekbrooks: and listening to someone read a speech is *booooooooooooooring*21:21
kbrooksemmajane, ah 21:21
emmajanekbrooks: toastmasters teaches you to deliver an entertaining theatre piece instead of just reading power point slides.21:22
desertcFinding places to give speeches is pretty easy, in contrast21:22
desertcPeople love entertainment, and most groups need to schedule presenters21:23
* emmajane nods21:23
emmajaneI find that down playing the "freedom" part of FOSS opens more doors for me.21:23
desertcBut to what end...  If nothing happens after the presentation, then is it worth the effort?21:23
emmajane"I haven't used pirated software, and I haven't paid for software in 6 years... what to know how I did it?"21:23
desertcHmm.  Good catch phrase.21:24
kbrooksemmajane, is that true?21:24
emmajaneyup, kbrooks21:24
emmajanedesertc: it's a slow process, but eventually it will be more sustainable if they think it was *their* idea to switch.21:24
kbrooksemmajane, how does that downplay the freedom of FOSS?21:25
emmajanekbrooks: Lots of people play UP the "tinkering" part. Freedom to change the source code. Real people don't care about source code.21:25
kbrooksam i allowed to ask lots of questions? :p21:25
emmajanekbrooks: sure... why not? :)21:25
kbrooksemmajane, sometimes i say "you cant hire someone to change windows"21:26
desertckbrooks: It's like an article I read recently, "Most people would rather die than write programming code.  Telling them they are free to modify the source code is not going to make them want to try Linux."21:26
* kbrooks googles that 21:26
* emmajane nods. +1 etc to desertc21:26
kbrooksthat was paraphrased from http://digifreedom.net/node/103 21:28
kbrooksdesertc, i assume that was the article?21:28
kbrooksdesertc, it got on /. as well at  http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/01/13/143325421:29
emmajanekbrooks: more questions? :)21:33
kbrooksemmajane, ;-)21:34
desertckbrooks: yes, thanks for providing the link21:34
kbrooksdesertc, np21:34
desertcemmajane: seems like you are a good resource from all your experience.  I wonder if you aren't in a good location for presenting new ideas.  most communities are not so interested in learning and do not have the infrastructure and attendants for related activities.21:36
emmajanedesertc: You get out of a community what you put into it.21:36
emmajanedesertc: I work very hard with my community on issues surrounding technology. I work hard and they've come to trust me.21:37
desertcinteresting perspective21:37
emmajaneThe first year I moved into the area I couldn't even get people to email me back about issues. But now people I don't even know are paying to come to the tech conference I've set up. People trust that I'm going to provide good, useful information.21:38
emmajanethe trust factor is huge.21:38
desertcyour own tech conference.  interesting.  do you have a link to the event?21:39
emmajaneNo one else was doing it, so I started one.21:39
emmajaneI saw a *huge* need for people to come together and talk about technology and how scary it is and how it takes over our business lives.21:39
emmajaneI was hoping that my peer techies would come to it. They didn't the first year, so I made it into an end user conference. Now the techies are coming because they see the potential to earn new business from the other attendees.21:40
emmajaneI pick speakers who think about technology and can talk about it, but it's definitely not a hands on training session. I do, however, get a little bit of work from people who like the conference and want to hire me to do stuff for their company. They come to think of me as being an expert in all the topics presented (which is *hilariously*not*the*case*).21:42
desertcPutting together conferences should be high up on any Ubuntu LoCo's group's list of activities, imho.  Great way to get the message out and build ties with the community.  It requires a lot of work, though, and that, sadly, is in short supply.21:42
emmajanedesertc: yes, it takes a HUGE amount of work.21:43
emmajanesurprisingly I didn't get huge buy-in from my LUG the first year.21:43
emmajaneI got a bit of "end users? *yawn*"21:43
emmajane(Let it be known that I love them dearly and that they are brilliant at things I know nothing about.)21:44
desertcI have noticed a lot of "wouldn't it be great if someone - anyone - would do these things for Linux in our community", and the conversations can go on endlessly.  But, when the discussion turns to actually doing even the most modest amount of work, everyone suddenly remembers they have to depart immediately - oh, but they want to know how it all turns out.21:46
emmajanedesertc: Yup, I get that too.21:46
emmajaneit's frustrating.21:47
desertcSo, I don't know how you broke through that barrier.  I wager you did most of the work and then got people helping after you proved it could be done the first time.21:47
emmajaneI go back to my personal mantra of, "I want this community to..."21:47
emmajaneand then I *do*it*21:47
* emmajane still does it "all" herself.21:47
desertcHmm - that's sad.  So, I have been finding ways to advocate and market on my own.  Posters, websites, working within the Ubuntu teams.  I am sure you found the same things useful.  I will have to give some serious thought to performing presentations to the list.21:49
emmajaneit's not sad!21:50
emmajaneI get to do it exactly how I want it done.21:51
emmajaneIt's wonderful!!21:51
desertc:-)  Great outlook on life.21:51
emmajaneIt's true though. I wanted a tech conference and it was my dream. I'm the only one that can make it happen.21:53
emmajaneYou have to be passionate about the idea or no one will follow you.21:53
emmajanehosting a tech conference is definitely *not* for everyone.21:54
* emmajane is a freakish overachiever. :)21:54
emmajaneLocally I've found that businesses respond well to persistent efforts.21:56
emmajane"This is what i'm going to do. I would love for you to be a part of it, but I'm going to do it regardless of whether or not you participate because I think it's that important and becausee I love it so much."21:56
emmajanethat's part of what takes the sales edge away as well.21:57
emmajane"I don't need you to buy this for it to be important to me." or something like that.21:57
desertcemmajane: you must have been sending karma through the airwaves because a local university just called me to ask for me to present in march22:12
emmajanethat's wonderful!!! :)22:12
desertcRegarding what you said about getting people involved, I spent six months trying to get people to do some project together, then I just threw up my hands and started doing it myself.  Only after telling people how it was going did people want to start getting involved.  But, now I know some people who I can call and work on other things, in the future.  I think it's like what you said before -- which I had not considered -- there's a level 22:15
desertcof trust that needs to be built between people.22:15
* emmajane nods.22:15
* emmajane waves to Feravolo22:17
FeravoloIs anyone here22:19
desertcNo, sorry, no one.22:19
emmajaneI'm just trying to get some work done before the end of the day. :)22:19
Feravolooh I just signed onto the channel from my office, I will have to read today's dialog when i get home22:20
desertcemmajane: Are you reaching out to the Ubuntu LoCo Team of California?22:21
emmajanedesertc: .ca == canada.22:22
desertcI saw a reference to Bay Area on your conference website.  Maybe put the address of the conference in your About... page?  ;)22:24
desertcBut now I see the CBC references, so I should have known.22:25
desertcANyway, reached out to your local LoCo team?22:25
emmajanedesertc: Heather is coming to speak at the conference from San Francisco, yes and there are loads of local references. it's not meant to draw in from a larger community than my own physical community.22:26

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