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ubotuUbuntu releases a new version every 6 months. Each version is supported for 18 months to 5 years. More info at http://www.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/releases & http://wiki.ubuntu.com/TimeBasedReleases03:28
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* pitti waves hello13:56
* tedg waves back13:56
pedro_hello all :-)13:57
pittiPadre! erm, Pedro!13:57
* Hobbsee waves the Long Pointy Stick of DOOM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ™ around in greeting13:58
pittiHobbsee: hey, take care where you wave this thing at13:58
* pitti rubs his knee13:58
* Hobbsee tickles pitti wiht it13:59
Hobbseeheh :)13:59
* mvo waves14:00
KeybukGood afternoon all14:01
Keybukok, that's everyone :-)14:03
Keybuki've put the agenda together here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/Meeting/2008-02-0714:03
Keybukdid I miss any items in people's reports?14:04
Keybukwe have a few action points from the last meeting to run through14:05
Keybukmvo: talk to Colin about using germinate to determine length of package support (3/5 years, 18 months)14:05
mvoI asked colin about it, but got no reply yet, I will ask again14:06
Keybukok, I will nag in my phone call with Colin after this meeting14:06
mvoif the rules are straightforward (i.e. server seed = 5y, desktop seed 3y, everything else in main 18m) then I can probably get this done myself14:07
mvoits just that I'm not sure if that is the official policy14:07
pittie. g. what will we do about langpacks?14:07
pittithey are in main, but not in desktop, and it's not immediately clear how long we want to provide updates14:07
pitti3 years, I guess14:07
KeybukCanonical provides free maintenance for Ubuntu products as follows:14:07
Keybuk * Ubuntu Desktop, Kubuntu Desktop, Ubuntu Server:14:07
Keybuk   Security updates and select bug fixes (18 months)14:07
Keybuk * Ubuntu Desktop LTS:14:07
Keybuk   Security updates and select bug fixes (3 years)14:07
Keybuk * Ubuntu Server LTS:14:07
Keybuk   Hardware compatibility updates (until next LTS)14:07
Keybuk   Security updates and select bug fixes (5 years)14:07
Keybukpitti: a very interesting point, we have never considered langpacks in maintenance terms before14:09
pittiour practice is that we continue to upload dapper packs now, i. e. past the 18 months14:09
pittisince they are mostly relevant for desktops, 3 years seems appropriate to me14:09
KeybukI've raised that with mdz and Steve George14:10
Keybukmvo: mail u-devel@ about improving u-n to warn about universe packages with known security holes14:11
pittithat happened14:11
pittinot a lot of replies yet, though14:11
* pitti promises to reply in the next days14:11
* mvo sent it a bit late *cough*14:11
Keybukok, deleted from the list14:11
Keybukseb128: talk to Scott for updating pppoeconf-gui spec status for the feature provided by gnome-system-tools14:11
seb128I didn't ;-)14:11
seb128Keybuk: g-s-t does pppoe configuration now14:12
Keybukdoes that mean it can be considered implemented?14:12
seb128so should the spec be deprecated or implemented?14:12
pittiStatus: implemented-through-the-backdoor :)14:12
KeybukI'd just say Implemented :-)14:12
seb128thanks ;-)14:12
Keybuktedg: talk to Scott and Mark about screensaver-review; this is currently way too underdefined for getting it into hardy14:13
tedgI'm not sure that was captured quite right, I e-mailed the maintainer from Debian, and he didn't have any ideas for splitting things out.14:13
tedgIt seems like "arbitrary" is the only way to split out screensavers.14:13
tedg(besides the obviously GL and non-GL)14:14
KeybukI assume we want to split into "ones we like" and "ones we don't" ?14:14
tedgYes, the "we" and "like" are the problem :)14:15
kwwiicouldn't we split them according to what they show somehow?14:15
MacSloweverything that's not GL is for the bin14:15
tedgkwwii: What do you mean?14:15
tedgMacSlow: heh14:15
MacSlowI don't recall any non-GL screensaver to be worth keeping14:16
kwwiitedg: like, spinning, flipping, rotating things in one group14:16
Keybukthis clearly needs some more discussion14:16
kwwiizooming, panning, scrolling in another, etc.14:16
Keybuktedg: can you start a thread on ubuntu-desktop to begin the discussion?14:16
tedgKeybuk: Yeah, I'll put a list in so people can comment inline.14:16
Keybukthat would be great14:17
tedgFunny how the stupid things are difficult. :)14:17
pittiMacSlow: we still need to keep the 'just black' one for laptops on battery mode :)14:17
KeybukRiddell: from your activity summary, you're still blocked on KDE 4 seed changes?14:17
RiddellKeybuk: yes14:18
KeybukRiddell: ok, I'll raise that with Colin14:18
MacSlowpitti, agreed14:18
Keybukok, first agenda item14:18
Keybukmvo: dapper->hardy kernel upgrades. A lot of people will have 386 kernels installed on their system. I would propose to transition those to the -generic on dapper->hardy if "uname -m" returns i586 or i686.14:18
pittiMacSlow: and shouldn't we keep at least some for people who don't have GL working?14:18
mvoany comments on this?14:18
Keybukmvo: did we install -386 by default on dapper, or did people get it by some other means?14:19
tedgpitti: We offer a "free visit from MacSlow to fix your computer" :)14:19
mvoI'm not 100% sure what the mechanism was, but on a lot of machines I have seen -386 is installed. I think the default was picked by the installer14:19
MacSlowpitti, tedg: I would suggest the list-split like: "uses GL", "uses core rendering", "uses Xrender/cairo"14:19
sorenmvo: You could yank out the logic from the installer and use that to determine which new kernel to install?14:20
pittiwe don't build an -i386 flavor at all any more?14:20
mvowe still have -386, but it build uni processor for example14:21
mvoits a different -386 that we used to have in dapper, in dapper it was more what -generic is now14:21
pittioh, we do14:21
mvosoren: right, that should work14:21
Keybukthere's -386, -generic, -rt, -server, -virtual14:21
Keybuk-386 being "crappy hardware" rather than default14:21
mvoin dapper there was -686 too, but that one is easy -> -generic14:22
mvowe also had -lowlatency in between, but that -generic now too14:22
KeybukI'd blacklist for the update, not whitelist14:22
Keybukie. update for not i386 or i486 ?14:22
mvothe only concern I have is that going from -386 to -generic may break the crappy hardware14:23
mvothe whitelist idea sounds good too14:23
sorenThe installer already has the logic to determine the most suitable kernel for a given cpu. Why not use it? If it's good enough at isntall time, it should be good enough at upgrade time, shouldn't it?14:23
mvopopcon say we have 14354 systems with -386 and 380916 with -generic14:23
Keybukthat's an interesting point14:24
Keybukis the logic complex?14:24
mvoI will check14:25
sorenIt's not *completely* straigtforward, but it's robust.14:25
sorenand *quite* well tested :)14:25
mvois this still true with the live-cd?14:25
Keybukit seems that automatically migrating via some logic is a consensus14:25
mvoor does that copy the live-cd kernel?14:25
Keybukmvo: live cd just uses -generic14:25
Keybuk(I think)14:26
mvoI think so too14:26
sorenmvo: The logic in the installer takes two things into account:14:26
sorenThe set of kernels it has available, and what your CPU supports. If the installation in question only has the generic kernel, it'll obviously go with that.14:26
pittiyeah, we only ship one kernel nowadays14:27
sorenI'm not sure which kernels are on the cd, but given their size and the struggle to minimize the iso's...14:27
mvook, I will check it out, thanks for the suggestions14:27
pittisoren: IIRC we have stopped shipping multiple kernels on CDs ages ago14:28
sorenpitti: Sounds plausible :)14:29
ogra_cmpcedubuntu was the only exception until gutsy14:29
pittisoren: just confirmed by checking .manifest and .list14:29
KeybukFOSSCamp and UDS Sponsorship proposals14:30
Keybukthe deadline for all of these has passed, did everybody update the wiki pages?14:31
* mvo did14:31
pittimine were all stolen from Jorge :)14:31
Riddellwhere is the UDS wiki page?14:31
seb128Keybuk: jorge put the GNOME guys name on the fosscamp list and I'm not sure if they should also be on the uds one14:31
seb128desrt, vuntz, gicmo that is14:32
Keybukthey seem to be logical UDS candidates to me14:32
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Keybukdoes anyone have any last-minute additions they want to make to either list?14:33
kwwiiKeybuk: I would like to find some art-related people but i am not sure who atm14:33
MacSlowseb128, Keybuk: one of the core-devs behind clutter also sounds like a good idea to invite14:33
mvoRichard Hughes probably too14:33
mvo(if he is not on the list already)14:33
KeybukMacSlow: do you have a proposal for which one?14:33
Keybukmvo: FOSSCamp or UDS?14:33
MacSlowKeybuk, thinking about that for some days know14:33
seb128MacSlow: that's a wiki page, feel free to edit ;-)14:34
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mvoKeybuk: fosscamp14:34
Keybukmvo: add him to the wiki page14:34
MacSlowseb128, I know :)14:34
Keybukmvo, MacSlow: compiz people for UDS too?14:34
* mvo adds him14:34
Keybuktedg: can you think of anyone to talk about session management with?14:35
KeybukRiddell: are the KDE people on the UDS list now?14:35
MacSlowKeybuk, yes... I would suggest to try to ask David Reveman (Novell or not) for a change14:35
kwwiiCory K should be invited14:36
RiddellKeybuk: no, hang on14:36
mvoKeybuk: I added Travis there and I second the suggestion of MacSlow14:36
KeybukMacSlow: -> wiki14:36
Keybukkwwii: -> wiki14:36
Keybukplease get any changes done by 1600 UTC today (ie within the next 1h20)14:37
KeybukFOSSCamp team attendance14:38
KeybukThere's no requirement that staff members attend both FOSSCamp and UDS this year14:38
Keybukwho did not find it useful last year?14:39
kwwiiI personally did not find it amazingly interesting14:40
Keybuk(this will probably largely depend on which sponsored people come to fosscamp, and which to UDS, of course)14:40
pittiif David Zeuthen and Lennart Poettering come to FossCamp, I'll be there, too14:41
KeybukI guess from the silence, most people would still like to participate? :)14:41
seb128right, depends on who is coming14:41
* mvo nods14:41
pittilast time wasn't terribly effective for me, but it was still enjoyable to be around14:42
seb128same for me14:42
seb128vuntz, desrt and gicmo were there during the uds too and we had enough time during the week to discuss14:42
seb128depends of the people who are coming only for fosscamp and not uds14:43
* tedg wasn't there for FOSS Camp last year so can't really comment.14:43
* MacSlow thinks FOSSCamp was good... but not enough Xorg/graphics folks around14:43
MithrandirI found it useful in a relationship-building way, which is a bit hard to quantify.14:43
KeybukMacSlow: do you have specific people you'd like us to invite or sponsor --> wiki :-)14:44
MacSlowKeybuk, I'm just doing that right now14:44
Mithrandirmeet up with people, have some random discussion on projects, pick up on clues on interesting projects, etc.14:44
pitti^ me 214:44
seb128right, which depends on who is coming14:45
seb128so not easy to say now if that will be useful or not14:45
Mithrandirit also makes it so much easier to talk with people on IRC and email later, since they then know you a bit.14:45
KeybukI'll chat to the leads about this in my call, and see if we can come to some kind of consensus14:46
pittieven talking to ourselves is well worth it IMHO :)14:47
KeybukUDS sessions - likewise now is the time to think about things to talk about at UDS14:47
Keybukthis is obviously the things you'd like to tackle for 8.1014:47
mvoMacSlow: are you still editing the wiki or is the lock stale?14:48
KeybukRiddell: for you, this should come from the whole of the Kubuntu community14:48
Keybukkwwii: likewise, this should come from the whole of the Art community14:48
MacSlowmvo, yes... collecting corret email-addresses of people I added14:48
KeybukI'd like a draft list by this meeting next week if possible14:48
Keybukthat'll allow us to make an early public announcement with possible topics14:50
Keybukbefore we go into the detail of scheduling, etc.14:50
pittiKeybuk: i. e. you want to collect ideas from us what to break^Wdevelop in 8.10?14:50
Keybukpitti: exactly14:50
tedgDo you want a list or blueprints?14:51
Keybuktedg: just a list14:51
Keybuksentence or paragraph per item, depending how wordy you want to be14:51
KeybukUDS details I know:14:52
tedgKeybuk: How long is mpt on leave?  Will he have time before next week's meeting?14:52
Keybuk * it will be in Prague14:52
Keybuk * Mon 19th to Fri 23rd of May14:52
Keybuk * FOSSCamp is at the same location on Friday 16th and Saturday 17th of May14:52
Keybuk * Hotel conference area is a little bit larger than Boston14:53
Keybuk * Sessions will be tracked again, and Desktop will have its own room14:53
pittioh, Sunday is free this time?14:53
Keybuk * Schedule will be fixed before the conference; there are 2-4 spare rooms for "break out" sessions that can be scheduled ad-hoc14:53
Keybukpitti: yeah14:54
pittitracked> ah, good; the scheduling was excellent last time, that should be kept14:54
Keybukthat's about the key details that I know14:55
Keybukoh, there's a fitness centre on the 25th floor of the hotel with nice views -- and a pool14:55
Keybukbut the pool apparently has a "per person" charge to gain access to use, but does allegedly have a spectacular view over the city14:56
pittithat sounds great14:57
Keybukok, Any other Business14:57
kwwiiKeybuk: can you get the OOo icons sorted?14:58
Keybukkwwii: -v ?14:58
kwwiiKeybuk: calc needs to find the time to put them in bzr14:58
Keybukkwwii: I'll ask Colin14:58
kwwiigreat, thanks14:58
pedro_i have a quick one14:58
Keybukpitti: I already have mpt's list ;)  mostly because he was in the office on Monday when I was14:59
Keybukpedro_: shoot14:59
pedro_since brasero and transmission are part of the default release i just want to know who'll be the bug contact for that products14:59
mvoMacSlow: ok, please let me know why  you are done14:59
seb128pedro_: desktop bugs?14:59
MacSlowmvo, sure14:59
seb128pedro_: I think there is brasero upstream guys looking to launchpad but I'm not sure15:00
mvoMacSlow: eh, s/why/when/ of course :)15:00
pedro_seb128: ok, cool15:00
seb128quick one too15:01
Keybukseb128: yup15:01
seb128does anybody has an opinion on dropping the add-to-panel ubuntu change?15:01
Keybukseb128: what was our change?15:01
seb128that's not trivial code change and obviously upstream it not going to take it now15:01
mvowhat does the upstream one look like?15:02
seb128Keybuk: upstream has a list and we have a canvas15:02
mvoone bit list with a single entry per applet?15:02
pittiKeybuk: "mpt's list"?15:02
* Keybuk has no objection to either15:02
mvohm, I think I like ours better, but then I don't want to maintain the fork :)15:03
pittiseb128: where does our sorting by category come from?15:03
pittithat seems to be much clearer15:03
Keybukseb128: I guess formally we should ask mpt when he's back15:03
pittii. e. do the applets provide the category on their own?15:03
seb128pitti: we patch applets .server to add categories15:03
seb128pitti: they don't upstream, we do add those for common ones but not for everything in the universe15:03
kwwiiseb128: personally, I like the list better15:04
kwwiiand it will look much better with the 2D icons :-)15:04
seb128one of the reason vuntz didn't want the change is that he things categories are confusing15:05
seb128he nevers know in which category to look15:05
MacSlowmvo, done15:05
seb128and I've to admit I quite often look to several categories to find something15:05
mvoMacSlow: thanks15:05
seb128Keybuk: ok, asking mpt seems to be a good idea, I'll do that15:06
MacSlowKeybuk, if you want to take a look -> https://wiki.canonical.com/Fosscamp-Prague-Sponsorships15:06
Keybukok, thanks all15:08
pittithanks guys, rock on15:09
mvothanks all15:10
* MacSlow needs sleep15:11
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=== ubotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Fridge Editors Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 13 Feb 22:30 UTC: Forum Council | 15 Feb 04:00 UTC: MOTU | 20 Feb 01:00 UTC: TriLoCo-Midwest
Rinchenhowdy howdy15:53
RinchenThink we have 2 minutes before start time if the clocks are correct15:54
Rinchen@schedule now15:54
ubotuSchedule for Etc/UTC: Current meeting: Fridge Editors 13 Feb 22:30: Forum Council | 15 Feb 04:00: MOTU | 20 Feb 01:00: TriLoCo-Midwest15:54
Rinchenand nothing happens :-)15:56
Rinchenthat would be due to the absence of mootbot15:56
RinchenOk, the old fashion way then15:57
RinchenHello everyone. Welcome to the Fridge Editors IRC meeting.15:57
RinchenToday's Agenda:15:57
Rinchen1) Updating the ubuntu wiki (Rinchen)15:57
Rinchen2) Rejuv plan (Rinchen)15:57
Rinchen3) Common email submission between fridge and UWN (Rinchen, Corey)  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuNews15:57
Rinchen4) Possible new theme (Corey)15:57
Rinchen5) How can we write news that doesn't always regurgitate other websites? (nixternal)15:57
RinchenFirst up, Roll Call!15:57
Rinchenme :-)15:58
* boredandblogging waves15:58
Rinchenping beuno15:58
Rinchenping sladen15:58
Rinchenping nixternal15:59
Rinchenwell, this might be a short meeting boredandblogging15:59
RinchenI don't see Corey either....16:00
Rinchenthere's mrevell16:00
boredandblogginghi mrevell16:00
mrevellhey boredandblogging16:00
Rinchenwell, if you guys are ok with it, I'll wait 5 minutes to see if Corey, Martin, Vid, and others join16:01
mrevellyeah, np16:01
Rinchenodd, we did get confirmation from a few folks that they would be here16:03
Rinchenwell, while we wait, if any lurkers want to ask Fridge questions, feel free.16:03
mrevellYeah, Corey and Rich said they'd be16:03
Rinchenmrevell,  that link I sent you if for the original Fridge improvement doc.  There are some outdating items on it.16:05
RinchenI was thinking of removing those and using that as the replacement for the improvement ideas on the wiki16:05
* mrevell looking16:06
* sladen looks around16:06
Rinchenthis was the internal draft at using django which we decided against16:06
Rinchenand kept drupal16:06
Rinchenhi sladen - it looks like we're missing corey and a few others so I guess I'll call it... and say we'll cancel the meeting due to lack of attendance.16:06
RinchenI'll continue the discussion on #ubuntu-fridge mrevell16:07
RinchenChannel is free...16:07
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