[03:28] <johnc4510-laptop> !schedule
[03:28] <ubotu> Ubuntu releases a new version every 6 months. Each version is supported for 18 months to 5 years. More info at http://www.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/releases & http://wiki.ubuntu.com/TimeBasedReleases
[13:56]  * pitti waves hello
[13:56]  * tedg waves back
[13:57] <pedro_> hello all :-)
[13:57] <pitti> Padre! erm, Pedro!
[13:58]  * Hobbsee waves the Long Pointy Stick of DOOM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ™ around in greeting
[13:58] <Riddell> hi
[13:58] <pitti> Hobbsee: hey, take care where you wave this thing at
[13:58]  * pitti rubs his knee
[13:59]  * Hobbsee tickles pitti wiht it
[13:59] <Hobbsee> heh :)
[14:00]  * mvo waves
[14:01] <Keybuk> Good afternoon all
[14:03] <Keybuk> ok, that's everyone :-)
[14:03] <Keybuk> i've put the agenda together here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/Meeting/2008-02-07
[14:04] <Keybuk> did I miss any items in people's reports?
[14:04] <seb128> yeah
[14:04] <MacSlow> greetings
[14:04] <seb128> ups
[14:04] <seb128> hey
[14:05] <Keybuk> we have a few action points from the last meeting to run through
[14:05] <Keybuk> mvo: talk to Colin about using germinate to determine length of package support (3/5 years, 18 months)
[14:06] <mvo> I asked colin about it, but got no reply yet, I will ask again
[14:06] <Keybuk> ok, I will nag in my phone call with Colin after this meeting
[14:07] <mvo> if the rules are straightforward (i.e. server seed = 5y, desktop seed 3y, everything else in main 18m) then I can probably get this done myself
[14:07] <mvo> its just that I'm not sure if that is the official policy
[14:07] <pitti> e. g. what will we do about langpacks?
[14:07] <pitti> they are in main, but not in desktop, and it's not immediately clear how long we want to provide updates
[14:07] <pitti> 3 years, I guess
[14:07] <Keybuk> Canonical provides free maintenance for Ubuntu products as follows:
[14:07] <Keybuk>  * Ubuntu Desktop, Kubuntu Desktop, Ubuntu Server:
[14:07] <Keybuk>    Security updates and select bug fixes (18 months)
[14:07] <Keybuk>  * Ubuntu Desktop LTS:
[14:07] <Keybuk>    Security updates and select bug fixes (3 years)
[14:07] <Keybuk>  * Ubuntu Server LTS:
[14:07] <Keybuk>    Hardware compatibility updates (until next LTS)
[14:07] <Keybuk>    Security updates and select bug fixes (5 years)
[14:09] <Keybuk> pitti: a very interesting point, we have never considered langpacks in maintenance terms before
[14:09] <pitti> our practice is that we continue to upload dapper packs now, i. e. past the 18 months
[14:09] <pitti> since they are mostly relevant for desktops, 3 years seems appropriate to me
[14:10] <Keybuk> I've raised that with mdz and Steve George
[14:11] <Keybuk> mvo: mail u-devel@ about improving u-n to warn about universe packages with known security holes
[14:11] <pitti> that happened
[14:11] <pitti> not a lot of replies yet, though
[14:11]  * pitti promises to reply in the next days
[14:11]  * mvo sent it a bit late *cough*
[14:11] <Keybuk> ok, deleted from the list
[14:11] <Keybuk> seb128: talk to Scott for updating pppoeconf-gui spec status for the feature provided by gnome-system-tools
[14:11] <seb128> I didn't ;-)
[14:12] <seb128> Keybuk: g-s-t does pppoe configuration now
[14:12] <Keybuk> does that mean it can be considered implemented?
[14:12] <seb128> so should the spec be deprecated or implemented?
[14:12] <seb128> yes
[14:12] <pitti> Status: implemented-through-the-backdoor :)
[14:12] <Keybuk> I'd just say Implemented :-)
[14:12] <seb128> good
[14:12] <seb128> thanks ;-)
[14:13] <Keybuk> tedg: talk to Scott and Mark about screensaver-review; this is currently way too underdefined for getting it into hardy
[14:13] <tedg> I'm not sure that was captured quite right, I e-mailed the maintainer from Debian, and he didn't have any ideas for splitting things out.
[14:13] <tedg> It seems like "arbitrary" is the only way to split out screensavers.
[14:14] <tedg> (besides the obviously GL and non-GL)
[14:14] <Keybuk> I assume we want to split into "ones we like" and "ones we don't" ?
[14:15] <tedg> Yes, the "we" and "like" are the problem :)
[14:15] <kwwii> couldn't we split them according to what they show somehow?
[14:15] <MacSlow> everything that's not GL is for the bin
[14:15] <tedg> kwwii: What do you mean?
[14:15] <tedg> MacSlow: heh
[14:16] <MacSlow> I don't recall any non-GL screensaver to be worth keeping
[14:16] <kwwii> tedg: like, spinning, flipping, rotating things in one group
[14:16] <Keybuk> this clearly needs some more discussion
[14:16] <kwwii> zooming, panning, scrolling in another, etc.
[14:16] <Keybuk> tedg: can you start a thread on ubuntu-desktop to begin the discussion?
[14:16] <tedg> Keybuk: Yeah, I'll put a list in so people can comment inline.
[14:17] <Keybuk> that would be great
[14:17] <tedg> Funny how the stupid things are difficult. :)
[14:17] <Keybuk> ok
[14:17] <pitti> MacSlow: we still need to keep the 'just black' one for laptops on battery mode :)
[14:17] <Keybuk> Riddell: from your activity summary, you're still blocked on KDE 4 seed changes?
[14:18] <Riddell> Keybuk: yes
[14:18] <Keybuk> Riddell: ok, I'll raise that with Colin
[14:18] <Riddell> thanks
[14:18] <MacSlow> pitti, agreed
[14:18] <Keybuk> ok, first agenda item
[14:18] <Keybuk> mvo: dapper->hardy kernel upgrades. A lot of people will have 386 kernels installed on their system. I would propose to transition those to the -generic on dapper->hardy if "uname -m" returns i586 or i686.
[14:18] <pitti> MacSlow: and shouldn't we keep at least some for people who don't have GL working?
[14:18] <mvo> any comments on this?
[14:19] <Keybuk> mvo: did we install -386 by default on dapper, or did people get it by some other means?
[14:19] <tedg> pitti: We offer a "free visit from MacSlow to fix your computer" :)
[14:19] <pitti> lol
[14:19] <mvo> I'm not 100% sure what the mechanism was, but on a lot of machines I have seen -386 is installed. I think the default was picked by the installer
[14:19] <MacSlow> pitti, tedg: I would suggest the list-split like: "uses GL", "uses core rendering", "uses Xrender/cairo"
[14:20] <soren> mvo: You could yank out the logic from the installer and use that to determine which new kernel to install?
[14:20] <pitti> we don't build an -i386 flavor at all any more?
[14:21] <mvo> we still have -386, but it build uni processor for example
[14:21] <mvo> its a different -386 that we used to have in dapper, in dapper it was more what -generic is now
[14:21] <pitti> oh, we do
[14:21] <mvo> soren: right, that should work
[14:21] <Keybuk> there's -386, -generic, -rt, -server, -virtual
[14:21] <Keybuk> -386 being "crappy hardware" rather than default
[14:22] <mvo> in dapper there was -686 too, but that one is easy -> -generic
[14:22] <mvo> we also had -lowlatency in between, but that -generic now too
[14:22] <Keybuk> I'd blacklist for the update, not whitelist
[14:22] <Keybuk> ie. update for not i386 or i486 ?
[14:23] <mvo> the only concern I have is that going from -386 to -generic may break the crappy hardware
[14:23] <mvo> the whitelist idea sounds good too
[14:23] <soren> The installer already has the logic to determine the most suitable kernel for a given cpu. Why not use it? If it's good enough at isntall time, it should be good enough at upgrade time, shouldn't it?
[14:23] <mvo> popcon say we have 14354 systems with -386 and 380916 with -generic
[14:24] <Keybuk> that's an interesting point
[14:24] <Keybuk> is the logic complex?
[14:25] <mvo> I will check
[14:25] <soren> WEll...
[14:25] <soren> It's not *completely* straigtforward, but it's robust.
[14:25] <soren> and *quite* well tested :)
[14:25] <mvo> is this still true with the live-cd?
[14:25] <Keybuk> it seems that automatically migrating via some logic is a consensus
[14:25] <mvo> or does that copy the live-cd kernel?
[14:25] <Keybuk> mvo: live cd just uses -generic
[14:26] <Keybuk> (I think)
[14:26] <mvo> I think so too
[14:26] <soren> mvo: The logic in the installer takes two things into account:
[14:26] <soren> The set of kernels it has available, and what your CPU supports. If the installation in question only has the generic kernel, it'll obviously go with that.
[14:27] <pitti> yeah, we only ship one kernel nowadays
[14:27] <soren> I'm not sure which kernels are on the cd, but given their size and the struggle to minimize the iso's...
[14:27] <mvo> ok, I will check it out, thanks for the suggestions
[14:28] <pitti> soren: IIRC we have stopped shipping multiple kernels on CDs ages ago
[14:29] <soren> pitti: Sounds plausible :)
[14:29] <ogra_cmpc> edubuntu was the only exception until gutsy
[14:29] <pitti> soren: just confirmed by checking .manifest and .list
[14:30] <Keybuk> ok
[14:30] <Keybuk> FOSSCamp and UDS Sponsorship proposals
[14:31] <Keybuk> the deadline for all of these has passed, did everybody update the wiki pages?
[14:31]  * mvo did
[14:31] <pitti> mine were all stolen from Jorge :)
[14:31] <Riddell> where is the UDS wiki page?
[14:31] <Keybuk> https://wiki.canonical.com/UDS-Prague-Sponsorships
[14:31] <seb128> Keybuk: jorge put the GNOME guys name on the fosscamp list and I'm not sure if they should also be on the uds one
[14:31] <Keybuk> https://wiki.canonical.com/Fosscamp-Prague-Sponsorships
[14:32] <seb128> desrt, vuntz, gicmo that is
[14:32] <Keybuk> they seem to be logical UDS candidates to me
[14:32] <seb128> good
[14:33] <Keybuk> does anyone have any last-minute additions they want to make to either list?
[14:33] <kwwii> Keybuk: I would like to find some art-related people but i am not sure who atm
[14:33] <MacSlow> seb128, Keybuk: one of the core-devs behind clutter also sounds like a good idea to invite
[14:33] <mvo> Richard Hughes probably too
[14:33] <mvo> (if he is not on the list already)
[14:33] <Keybuk> MacSlow: do you have a proposal for which one?
[14:33] <Keybuk> mvo: FOSSCamp or UDS?
[14:33] <MacSlow> Keybuk, thinking about that for some days know
[14:34] <seb128> MacSlow: that's a wiki page, feel free to edit ;-)
[14:34] <mvo> Keybuk: fosscamp
[14:34] <Keybuk> mvo: add him to the wiki page
[14:34] <MacSlow> seb128, I know :)
[14:34] <Keybuk> mvo, MacSlow: compiz people for UDS too?
[14:34]  * mvo adds him
[14:35] <Keybuk> tedg: can you think of anyone to talk about session management with?
[14:35] <Keybuk> Riddell: are the KDE people on the UDS list now?
[14:35] <MacSlow> Keybuk, yes... I would suggest to try to ask David Reveman (Novell or not) for a change
[14:36] <kwwii> Cory K should be invited
[14:36] <Riddell> Keybuk: no, hang on
[14:36] <mvo> Keybuk: I added Travis there and I second the suggestion of MacSlow
[14:36] <Keybuk> MacSlow: -> wiki
[14:36] <Keybuk> kwwii: -> wiki
[14:37] <Keybuk> please get any changes done by 1600 UTC today (ie within the next 1h20)
[14:38] <kwwii> right
[14:38] <Keybuk> FOSSCamp team attendance
[14:38] <Keybuk> There's no requirement that staff members attend both FOSSCamp and UDS this year
[14:39] <Keybuk> who did not find it useful last year?
[14:40] <kwwii> I personally did not find it amazingly interesting
[14:40] <Keybuk> (this will probably largely depend on which sponsored people come to fosscamp, and which to UDS, of course)
[14:41] <pitti> if David Zeuthen and Lennart Poettering come to FossCamp, I'll be there, too
[14:41] <Keybuk> I guess from the silence, most people would still like to participate? :)
[14:41] <seb128> right, depends on who is coming
[14:41]  * mvo nods
[14:42] <pitti> last time wasn't terribly effective for me, but it was still enjoyable to be around
[14:42] <seb128> same for me
[14:42] <seb128> vuntz, desrt and gicmo were there during the uds too and we had enough time during the week to discuss
[14:43] <seb128> depends of the people who are coming only for fosscamp and not uds
[14:43]  * tedg wasn't there for FOSS Camp last year so can't really comment.
[14:43] <Keybuk> *nods*
[14:43]  * MacSlow thinks FOSSCamp was good... but not enough Xorg/graphics folks around
[14:43] <Mithrandir> I found it useful in a relationship-building way, which is a bit hard to quantify.
[14:44] <Keybuk> MacSlow: do you have specific people you'd like us to invite or sponsor --> wiki :-)
[14:44] <MacSlow> Keybuk, I'm just doing that right now
[14:44] <Mithrandir> meet up with people, have some random discussion on projects, pick up on clues on interesting projects, etc.
[14:44] <pitti> ^ me 2
[14:44] <Keybuk> *nods*
[14:45] <seb128> right, which depends on who is coming
[14:45] <seb128> so not easy to say now if that will be useful or not
[14:45] <Mithrandir> it also makes it so much easier to talk with people on IRC and email later, since they then know you a bit.
[14:46] <Keybuk> I'll chat to the leads about this in my call, and see if we can come to some kind of consensus
[14:47] <pitti> even talking to ourselves is well worth it IMHO :)
[14:47] <Keybuk> UDS sessions - likewise now is the time to think about things to talk about at UDS
[14:47] <Keybuk> this is obviously the things you'd like to tackle for 8.10
[14:48] <mvo> MacSlow: are you still editing the wiki or is the lock stale?
[14:48] <Keybuk> Riddell: for you, this should come from the whole of the Kubuntu community
[14:48] <Keybuk> kwwii: likewise, this should come from the whole of the Art community
[14:48] <MacSlow> mvo, yes... collecting corret email-addresses of people I added
[14:48] <Keybuk> I'd like a draft list by this meeting next week if possible
[14:50] <Keybuk> that'll allow us to make an early public announcement with possible topics
[14:50] <Keybuk> before we go into the detail of scheduling, etc.
[14:50] <pitti> Keybuk: i. e. you want to collect ideas from us what to break^Wdevelop in 8.10?
[14:50] <Keybuk> pitti: exactly
[14:51] <tedg> Do you want a list or blueprints?
[14:51] <Keybuk> tedg: just a list
[14:51] <Keybuk> sentence or paragraph per item, depending how wordy you want to be
[14:52] <Keybuk> UDS details I know:
[14:52] <tedg> Keybuk: How long is mpt on leave?  Will he have time before next week's meeting?
[14:52] <Keybuk>  * it will be in Prague
[14:52] <Keybuk>  * Mon 19th to Fri 23rd of May
[14:52] <Keybuk>  * FOSSCamp is at the same location on Friday 16th and Saturday 17th of May
[14:53] <Keybuk>  * Hotel conference area is a little bit larger than Boston
[14:53] <Keybuk>  * Sessions will be tracked again, and Desktop will have its own room
[14:53] <pitti> oh, Sunday is free this time?
[14:53] <Keybuk>  * Schedule will be fixed before the conference; there are 2-4 spare rooms for "break out" sessions that can be scheduled ad-hoc
[14:54] <Keybuk> pitti: yeah
[14:54] <pitti> tracked> ah, good; the scheduling was excellent last time, that should be kept
[14:55] <Keybuk> that's about the key details that I know
[14:55] <Keybuk> oh, there's a fitness centre on the 25th floor of the hotel with nice views -- and a pool
[14:56] <Keybuk> but the pool apparently has a "per person" charge to gain access to use, but does allegedly have a spectacular view over the city
[14:57] <pitti> that sounds great
[14:57] <Keybuk> ok, Any other Business
[14:58] <kwwii> Keybuk: can you get the OOo icons sorted?
[14:58] <Keybuk> kwwii: -v ?
[14:58] <kwwii> Keybuk: calc needs to find the time to put them in bzr
[14:58] <Keybuk> kwwii: I'll ask Colin
[14:58] <kwwii> great, thanks
[14:58] <pedro_> i have a quick one
[14:59] <Keybuk> pitti: I already have mpt's list ;)  mostly because he was in the office on Monday when I was
[14:59] <Keybuk> pedro_: shoot
[14:59] <pedro_> since brasero and transmission are part of the default release i just want to know who'll be the bug contact for that products
[14:59] <mvo> MacSlow: ok, please let me know why  you are done
[14:59] <seb128> pedro_: desktop bugs?
[14:59] <MacSlow> mvo, sure
[15:00] <seb128> pedro_: I think there is brasero upstream guys looking to launchpad but I'm not sure
[15:00] <mvo> MacSlow: eh, s/why/when/ of course :)
[15:00] <pedro_> seb128: ok, cool
[15:01] <seb128> quick one too
[15:01] <Keybuk> seb128: yup
[15:01] <seb128> does anybody has an opinion on dropping the add-to-panel ubuntu change?
[15:01] <Keybuk> seb128: what was our change?
[15:01] <seb128> that's not trivial code change and obviously upstream it not going to take it now
[15:02] <mvo> what does the upstream one look like?
[15:02] <seb128> Keybuk: upstream has a list and we have a canvas
[15:02] <mvo> one bit list with a single entry per applet?
[15:02] <seb128> yes
[15:02] <seb128> http://www.techotopia.com/images/d/df/Fedora_gnome_add_to_panel.jpg
[15:02] <pitti> Keybuk: "mpt's list"?
[15:02]  * Keybuk has no objection to either
[15:03] <mvo> hm, I think I like ours better, but then I don't want to maintain the fork :)
[15:03] <pitti> seb128: where does our sorting by category come from?
[15:03] <pitti> that seems to be much clearer
[15:03] <Keybuk> seb128: I guess formally we should ask mpt when he's back
[15:03] <pitti> i. e. do the applets provide the category on their own?
[15:03] <seb128> pitti: we patch applets .server to add categories
[15:03] <seb128> pitti: they don't upstream, we do add those for common ones but not for everything in the universe
[15:04] <kwwii> seb128: personally, I like the list better
[15:04] <kwwii> and it will look much better with the 2D icons :-)
[15:05] <seb128> one of the reason vuntz didn't want the change is that he things categories are confusing
[15:05] <seb128> he nevers know in which category to look
[15:05] <MacSlow> mvo, done
[15:05] <seb128> and I've to admit I quite often look to several categories to find something
[15:05] <mvo> MacSlow: thanks
[15:06] <seb128> Keybuk: ok, asking mpt seems to be a good idea, I'll do that
[15:06] <MacSlow> Keybuk, if you want to take a look -> https://wiki.canonical.com/Fosscamp-Prague-Sponsorships
[15:08] <Keybuk> ok, thanks all
[15:09] <pitti> thanks guys, rock on
[15:10] <mvo> thanks all
[15:10] <seb128> thanks
[15:11]  * MacSlow needs sleep
[15:11] <MacSlow> :/
[15:11] <pedro_> thanks
[15:53] <Rinchen> howdy howdy
[15:54] <boredandblogging> hello
[15:54] <Rinchen> Think we have 2 minutes before start time if the clocks are correct
[15:54] <Rinchen> @schedule now
[15:54] <Rinchen> @schedule
[15:54] <ubotu> Schedule for Etc/UTC: Current meeting: Fridge Editors 13 Feb 22:30: Forum Council | 15 Feb 04:00: MOTU | 20 Feb 01:00: TriLoCo-Midwest
[15:55] <Rinchen> well
[15:55] <Rinchen> #startmeeting
[15:56] <Rinchen> and nothing happens :-)
[15:56] <boredandblogging> heh
[15:56] <Rinchen> that would be due to the absence of mootbot
[15:57] <Rinchen> Ok, the old fashion way then
[15:57] <Rinchen> Hello everyone. Welcome to the Fridge Editors IRC meeting.
[15:57] <Rinchen> Today's Agenda:
[15:57] <Rinchen> 1) Updating the ubuntu wiki (Rinchen)
[15:57] <Rinchen> 2) Rejuv plan (Rinchen)
[15:57] <Rinchen> 3) Common email submission between fridge and UWN (Rinchen, Corey)  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuNews
[15:57] <Rinchen> 4) Possible new theme (Corey)
[15:57] <Rinchen> 5) How can we write news that doesn't always regurgitate other websites? (nixternal)
[15:57] <Rinchen> First up, Roll Call!
[15:58] <Rinchen> me :-)
[15:58]  * boredandblogging waves
[15:58] <Rinchen> ping beuno
[15:58] <Rinchen> ping sladen
[15:59] <Rinchen> ping nixternal
[15:59] <Rinchen> well, this might be a short meeting boredandblogging
[15:59] <boredandblogging> lol
[15:59] <boredandblogging> awesome
[16:00] <Rinchen> I don't see Corey either....
[16:00] <Rinchen> there's mrevell
[16:00] <mrevell> Hi!
[16:00] <boredandblogging> hi mrevell
[16:00] <mrevell> hey boredandblogging
[16:01] <Rinchen> well, if you guys are ok with it, I'll wait 5 minutes to see if Corey, Martin, Vid, and others join
[16:01] <mrevell> yeah, np
[16:01] <boredandblogging> yeah
[16:03] <Rinchen> odd, we did get confirmation from a few folks that they would be here
[16:03] <Rinchen> well, while we wait, if any lurkers want to ask Fridge questions, feel free.
[16:03] <mrevell> Yeah, Corey and Rich said they'd be
[16:03] <mrevell> here
[16:05] <Rinchen> mrevell,  that link I sent you if for the original Fridge improvement doc.  There are some outdating items on it.
[16:05] <Rinchen> I was thinking of removing those and using that as the replacement for the improvement ideas on the wiki
[16:06]  * mrevell looking
[16:06]  * sladen looks around
[16:06] <Rinchen> this was the internal draft at using django which we decided against
[16:06] <Rinchen> and kept drupal
[16:06] <Rinchen> hi sladen - it looks like we're missing corey and a few others so I guess I'll call it... and say we'll cancel the meeting due to lack of attendance.
[16:07] <Rinchen> I'll continue the discussion on #ubuntu-fridge mrevell
[16:07] <Rinchen> Channel is free...
[16:07] <boredandblogging> ok