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warp10Hi all!10:41
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dholbachMOTU Q&A session in #ubuntu-classroom12:51
dholbachhello everybody and welcome to another MOTU Q&A session! who do we have here for the session today?13:00
* dholbach is Daniel Holbach and seems until now to be alone in this session :-)13:01
* DktrKranz is Luca Falavigna, and please don't ask hard questions :)13:01
* dholbach hugs DktrKranz13:02
* mruiz is Miguel Ruiz... MOTU hopeful13:02
* persia is Emmet Hikory, present but slow to respond.13:02
* Hobbsee is absent.13:03
dholbachit seems the MOTU Q&A session could do with some more advertising :)13:03
dholbachdo we have anybody with questions around?13:03
* slytherin is Onkar, MOTU hopeful and bugs persia and geser most of the time on #ubuntu-motu for solving java related problems.13:04
dholbachthanks a lot for your work on that, slytherin13:04
slytherindholbach: I am glad I could help13:05
mruizdholbach, days ago I received a build error message: https://edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/doc-debian/3.1.5ubuntu1/+build/502337. I'm wondering if someone could help me ...13:06
dholbachmruiz: great - let's take a look at it13:06
dholbachBuild finished at 20080131-185013:07
dholbachto me it looks like it succeeded13:07
dholbachStatus:  Failed to upload13:07
mruizthe upload to the archive was rejected... more details: http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/4339/13:07
persiamruiz: You've caught an odd one: Failed to Upload13:07
persiaThese typically indicate some oddity inside Soyuz at the time of the build13:07
DktrKranzFailed to Upload, cprov's fault :)13:07
dholbachbest to ask cprov or more generally on #launchpad13:08
persiaI'd suggest asking a buildd admin to take a look on #ubuntu-devel (although bugging cprov on #launchpad is also known to help)13:08
* warp10 joins the session a little late... sorry!13:10
dholbachhello warp1013:10
mruizthis package includes documentation, but it generates not only .deb files ... some txt files appeared13:10
slytherinI have one question. What is general criteria for approval of MOTU membership?13:10
warp10hi dholbach and all13:10
dholbachslytherin: a good track record of doing good work in the team and usually the best indicator is if your sponsors are completely happy with your work13:11
angelblade :)13:11
dholbachwhen applicants ask me for my opinion as a MC member, I ask them to talk to their sponsors and get their input on the matter13:11
slytherindholbach: Does that mean it is best to have most of your work sponsored by same person?13:12
dholbachslytherin: no, it's very good to work with a variety of people - as you tend to learn more that way13:12
dholbachthat's why the general sponsoring process is a good thing13:12
mruizdholbach, indeed... we have to work with the team :D13:13
persiaslytherin: I would recommend having your work be sponsored by many people.  Ideally you'll start working on something in such a way that you are working with your sponsors as peers, rather than as sponsors.13:13
persiaAt this point, they are typically more than happy to say anything good about you it takes so that you can upload on your own.13:13
slytherinAnd how do I decide when I am ready for membership? :-D13:14
persiaslytherin: That's a little more well defined.  You need "significant and sustained" contrinbutions, which is often interpreted as at least 2-6 months of stuff (depending on activity level), and attaining the respect and commendations of your peers working in that area.13:15
dholbach(if you refer to ubuntumembers membership)13:15
slytherindholbach: No, I am talking MOTU membership13:15
persia(yes.  one should wait for at least two sponsors to prompt prior to applying for membership of MOTU)13:16
dholbachif you refer to MOTU membership instead: ask people that you've worked with (your sponsors), look at previous applications13:16
persiaslytherin: In that case, I answered the wrong question.13:16
slytherinpersia: Your latest answer is what I was looking for. :-)13:16
ScottKI've found it's common for me to be pushing people to apply before they think they are ready.  I've also seen people turned down that applied to soon.13:17
ScottKWaiting for sponsors to suggest it is a good idea.13:17
dholbachif it happens regularly to you that your patches are sponsored as they are, that's a good sign :)13:19
persiaPersonally, I think other good signs are MOTUs asking you for your opinion on various issues, finding that you have good answers to other Contributor questions, etc.13:20
slytherinI guess I will wait for few weeks more. :-)13:21
dholbachslytherin: It's great to have you on the team :-)13:23
dholbachdo we have any other questions?13:23
dholbachno questions? :)13:26
* Hobbsee is sure someone has a question13:26
persiaIf there are no questions, all Contributors in the audience should go find a bug, and submit for sponsoring.  Any issues encountered may be considered questions.13:27
mruizhey dholbach13:27
dholbachhey mruiz :)13:27
dholbachpersia: that's a good one :)13:27
tuxmaniacguess I am late..13:27
dholbachtuxmaniac: no, not at all! :)13:28
persiatuxmaniac: Late is acceptable, as long as you have a question or want an answer :)13:28
dholbachif you have a question, fire away :)13:28
mruizI was working on a upgrade bug... (rezound) and I discovered a strange way to package it.13:28
Hobbseedholbach: i have a question.  what should someone do, that is actually useful, if they can't get a MOTU to review their stuff - particularly a new package on REVU?13:29
dholbachmruiz: what's the problem you're seeing?13:29
persiaHobbsee: There are cases of that?  Which package: I'll review it now.13:30
mruizrezound directory only contains: debian  rezound-0.12.2beta.tar.gz  rezound-0.12.2beta.tar.gz.cdbs-config_list13:30
Hobbseepersia: i'm talking in the generic case - perhaps not so much now, but it certainly used to be a problem13:30
Hobbseeand probably will be, after ff13:30
tuxmaniacHow do you handle problems related to upstream not ready to patch/create man pages according to lintian standards. Will Debian/Ubuntu always keep dpatching them? Or say upstream is not that active.13:30
persiaHobbsee: Ah.  After FF.  Hmm.  I'll see about that somehow (and don't have an answer now).13:30
mruizdholbach, for me is new . I expected rezound files ... it uses cdbs13:31
dholbachmruiz: it seems that they use tarball.mk (where you drop the upstream tarball into it)13:31
persiamruiz: You've encountered the dreaded tarball-in-tarball.  cdbs-edit-patch or dpatch-edit-patch should untar to allow you to patch.13:31
dholbachtuxmaniac: it's perfectly acceptable to keep an added manpage as a patch if upstream does not respond to a bug that requests adding it13:32
mruizdholbach, indeed debian/rules includes /usr/share/cdbs/1/rules/tarball.mk13:32
dholbachtuxmaniac: there's no need to make it a patch, you can simply add it to the debian directory and list it in debian/manpages13:32
persiatuxmaniac: That is part of what MOTU does: make sure the packages meet our policies.  If upstream will accept patches, that is good.  If not, we have to carry them.13:32
mruizdholbach, for this case, how should I package the upgrade ?13:32
persiamruiz: Best to check with the Debian maintainer to see if they want tarball-in-tarball again so that the orig.tar.gz can be the same and it can later be a sync.13:33
mruizpersia, thanks :D13:33
dholbachmruiz: I'm not sure it's the most elegant way but what should work is; mkdir reszound-<version>; cp -r rezound-<oldversion>/debian rezound-<version>.tar.gz rezound-<version>13:33
dholbach(and change the version in debian/rules if necessary)13:34
dholbachthere's something that intrigued me about tarball.mk when I started packaging, but I forgot what it was and find it a bit annoying today :)13:34
* mruiz prefers debhelper instead of cdbs13:34
dholbachtuxmaniac: did that answer your question?13:35
mruizdholbach, persia : thanks for your guidance ;-) ...13:35
tuxmaniacdholbach, yes.13:35
dholbachany other questions? anything we should take a look at together?13:36
* warp10 has a question13:36
dholbachwarp10: great13:36
Hobbseedholbach: can i have a heater?13:36
* Hobbsee is freezing!13:37
dholbachHobbsee: that's a good question - it's cold here too13:37
* persia is happy: 18 degrees of pure warmth13:37
warp10I am packaging a software that creates an empty dir (/usr/share/locale) and lintian raises a warning about that13:37
warp10Do I need to fix that? And if I do, what's best: using an rm in debian/control or patching upstream Makefile?13:38
ScottKHobbsee: If you're test building stuff you've packaged, your computer will warm the room.13:38
HobbseeScottK: yeah, but i'd prefer a slight lack of fire13:39
dholbachwarp10: it's definitely a good idea to find out what's creating the directory - to me it looks like it's lacking translations that are installed there13:39
warp10dholbach: indeed. the po/ is almost empty, but there is a Makefile.in.in that creates that directory13:41
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dholbach/usr/share/locale is a good thing - so the better fix might be to find out why no translations are shipped13:41
tuxmaniac[repeat post] darn my network13:42
tuxmaniacthere was a bug 189030. It was a sync request.13:42
tuxmaniacBuild failed on hppa architecture, but still the status is Fix released?13:42
tuxmaniacor how does one resolve such arch dependent issues in MOTU.13:42
dholbachin all other cases it's acceptable to remove an empty directory (if you can't figure out why or how it's created)13:42
Hobbseetuxmaniac: one doesn't care about hppa, unless one's name is lamont.13:42
tuxmaniacHobbsee, heheh13:42
warp10dholbach: probably upstream would like to add locales, but haven't been added yet13:42
persiatuxmaniac: Currently "Fix Released" means the source fix was released.  You found a different bug.13:42
dholbachtuxmaniac: the sync was executed so the bug is fixed - that it fails to build on one architecture is a different bug13:43
warp10dholbach: ok, so an rm in debian/rules would be enough?13:43
dholbachwarp10: are there *.po files?13:43
tuxmaniacaah true. thanks dholbach persia13:43
warp10dholbach: no *.po files there13:43
dholbachwarp10: I personally would leave the directory there and ignore lintian13:44
dholbachmaybe the next release ships translations13:44
dholbachin that case you will have to re-review debian/rules every time13:44
dholbach(and by mistake ship the good translations :))13:44
dholbach(and by mistake *not* ship the good translations :))13:44
warp10dholbach: yeah, maybe. Good idea, I'll do that. Thanks :)13:45
dholbachno problem13:45
dholbachmore questions? :)13:45
shibataI have a questiion. I have translated documents in packaging-guide package to Japanese, but it seems to be obsolete document compare to on wiki. Do you have plan to release new packaging-guide or other MOTU's documents until hardy release?13:45
persiaNote that this makes sense for directories like /usr/share/locale which can be expected to be on a user system.  For directories like /usr/lib/mypackage/quux/plugins/foo/ removal is a better option.13:45
persiashibata: Thank you very much, but no.  The wiki is replacing the package.  Perhaps you could put the translated documentation on the wiki?13:46
dholbachthat would be great13:46
dholbachthanks a lot for the work you put into translating it13:47
mruizdholbach, do you have a schedule (or deadline) for the packaging guide?13:47
persiadholbach: Have you filed for removal of that confusing package?13:47
shibatapersia: Should I translate bese on wiki?13:47
dholbachpersia: I'll talk to mdke about it13:47
persiashibata: If you have the time to translate the wiki instead, that would be even better :)13:47
dholbachdo we have a canonical way of doing translations on the wiki?13:48
persia(of course, if there was a sane method to exchange email between Ubuntu and 携帯 it would be more useful)13:48
dholbachor would it just be  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/<PackagingGuide in Japanese> ?13:48
dholbachhow do you say PackagingGuide in Japanese? :)13:50
shibataNow, I translate on Japanese LoCo Wiki.13:50
persiadholbach: MoinMoin has some multilingual features: lots of boilerplate is autotranslated to Japanese from a Japanese browser.  I'm not sure how it works though.  Be nice to leverage that if possible.13:50
dholbachpersia: I'll look into it13:51
dholbachthanks for your work on it shibata13:51
persiashibata: Until there is some reasonable documentation on the wiki about how to do proper multilingual pages, that's a very good place.  Thanks again.13:51
dholbachI can't understand it, but it's beautiful13:52
* dholbach loves looking at 'foreign characters' :)13:52
shibataIf translate on official wiki, do I use same way Ubuntu Weekly Newsletter?13:53
dholbachshibata: we could do that - I'll try to find out if there's a different way to do it and let you know13:54
shibatadholbach, persia: thanks13:55
dholbachshibata: thank you13:55
dholbachpango and gtk seem to figure out where a new japanese word starts, but it's hard for me to "see it"13:55
persiadholbach: That's OK.  Even humans determine word breaks by context and meaning rather than graphical representation.13:56
dholbachyeah :)13:56
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dholbachany other questions?13:58
dholbachif not, I'd take my dog for a walk now and see you in #ubuntu-motu later on :)13:59
dholbachthanks everybody for showing up and asking very good questions13:59
dholbachand thanks to everybody helping to answer the questions13:59
shibatathank you14:00
mruizthanks guys14:00
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