[10:41] <warp10> Hi all!
[12:51] <dholbach> MOTU Q&A session in #ubuntu-classroom
[13:00] <dholbach> hello everybody and welcome to another MOTU Q&A session! who do we have here for the session today?
[13:01]  * dholbach is Daniel Holbach and seems until now to be alone in this session :-)
[13:01]  * DktrKranz is Luca Falavigna, and please don't ask hard questions :)
[13:02]  * dholbach hugs DktrKranz
[13:02]  * mruiz is Miguel Ruiz... MOTU hopeful
[13:02]  * persia is Emmet Hikory, present but slow to respond.
[13:03]  * Hobbsee is absent.
[13:03] <dholbach> it seems the MOTU Q&A session could do with some more advertising :)
[13:03] <dholbach> do we have anybody with questions around?
[13:04]  * slytherin is Onkar, MOTU hopeful and bugs persia and geser most of the time on #ubuntu-motu for solving java related problems.
[13:04] <dholbach> thanks a lot for your work on that, slytherin
[13:05] <slytherin> dholbach: I am glad I could help
[13:06] <mruiz> dholbach, days ago I received a build error message: https://edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/doc-debian/3.1.5ubuntu1/+build/502337. I'm wondering if someone could help me ...
[13:06] <dholbach> mruiz: great - let's take a look at it
[13:07] <dholbach> Build finished at 20080131-1850
[13:07] <dholbach> to me it looks like it succeeded
[13:07] <dholbach> Status:  	Failed to upload
[13:07] <mruiz> the upload to the archive was rejected... more details: http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/4339/
[13:07] <persia> mruiz: You've caught an odd one: Failed to Upload
[13:07] <persia> These typically indicate some oddity inside Soyuz at the time of the build
[13:07] <DktrKranz> Failed to Upload, cprov's fault :)
[13:08] <dholbach> best to ask cprov or more generally on #launchpad
[13:08] <persia> I'd suggest asking a buildd admin to take a look on #ubuntu-devel (although bugging cprov on #launchpad is also known to help)
[13:10]  * warp10 joins the session a little late... sorry!
[13:10] <dholbach> hello warp10
[13:10] <mruiz> this package includes documentation, but it generates not only .deb files ... some txt files appeared
[13:10] <slytherin> I have one question. What is general criteria for approval of MOTU membership?
[13:10] <warp10> hi dholbach and all
[13:11] <dholbach> slytherin: a good track record of doing good work in the team and usually the best indicator is if your sponsors are completely happy with your work
[13:11] <angelblade>  :)
[13:11] <dholbach> when applicants ask me for my opinion as a MC member, I ask them to talk to their sponsors and get their input on the matter
[13:12] <slytherin> dholbach: Does that mean it is best to have most of your work sponsored by same person?
[13:12] <dholbach> slytherin: no, it's very good to work with a variety of people - as you tend to learn more that way
[13:12] <dholbach> that's why the general sponsoring process is a good thing
[13:13] <slytherin> Ok
[13:13] <mruiz> dholbach, indeed... we have to work with the team :D
[13:13] <persia> slytherin: I would recommend having your work be sponsored by many people.  Ideally you'll start working on something in such a way that you are working with your sponsors as peers, rather than as sponsors.
[13:13] <dholbach> :-)
[13:13] <persia> At this point, they are typically more than happy to say anything good about you it takes so that you can upload on your own.
[13:14] <slytherin> And how do I decide when I am ready for membership? :-D
[13:15] <persia> slytherin: That's a little more well defined.  You need "significant and sustained" contrinbutions, which is often interpreted as at least 2-6 months of stuff (depending on activity level), and attaining the respect and commendations of your peers working in that area.
[13:15] <dholbach> (if you refer to ubuntumembers membership)
[13:15] <slytherin> dholbach: No, I am talking MOTU membership
[13:16] <persia> (yes.  one should wait for at least two sponsors to prompt prior to applying for membership of MOTU)
[13:16] <dholbach> if you refer to MOTU membership instead: ask people that you've worked with (your sponsors), look at previous applications
[13:16] <persia> slytherin: In that case, I answered the wrong question.
[13:16] <slytherin> persia: Your latest answer is what I was looking for. :-)
[13:17] <ScottK> I've found it's common for me to be pushing people to apply before they think they are ready.  I've also seen people turned down that applied to soon.
[13:17] <ScottK> Waiting for sponsors to suggest it is a good idea.
[13:19] <dholbach> if it happens regularly to you that your patches are sponsored as they are, that's a good sign :)
[13:20] <persia> Personally, I think other good signs are MOTUs asking you for your opinion on various issues, finding that you have good answers to other Contributor questions, etc.
[13:21] <slytherin> I guess I will wait for few weeks more. :-)
[13:23] <dholbach> slytherin: It's great to have you on the team :-)
[13:23] <dholbach> do we have any other questions?
[13:26] <dholbach> no questions? :)
[13:26]  * Hobbsee is sure someone has a question
[13:27] <persia> If there are no questions, all Contributors in the audience should go find a bug, and submit for sponsoring.  Any issues encountered may be considered questions.
[13:27] <mruiz> hey dholbach
[13:27] <dholbach> hey mruiz :)
[13:27] <dholbach> persia: that's a good one :)
[13:27] <tuxmaniac> guess I am late..
[13:28] <dholbach> tuxmaniac: no, not at all! :)
[13:28] <persia> tuxmaniac: Late is acceptable, as long as you have a question or want an answer :)
[13:28] <dholbach> if you have a question, fire away :)
[13:28] <mruiz> I was working on a upgrade bug... (rezound) and I discovered a strange way to package it.
[13:29] <Hobbsee> dholbach: i have a question.  what should someone do, that is actually useful, if they can't get a MOTU to review their stuff - particularly a new package on REVU?
[13:29] <dholbach> mruiz: what's the problem you're seeing?
[13:30] <persia> Hobbsee: There are cases of that?  Which package: I'll review it now.
[13:30] <mruiz> rezound directory only contains: debian  rezound-0.12.2beta.tar.gz  rezound-0.12.2beta.tar.gz.cdbs-config_list
[13:30] <Hobbsee> persia: i'm talking in the generic case - perhaps not so much now, but it certainly used to be a problem
[13:30] <Hobbsee> and probably will be, after ff
[13:30] <tuxmaniac> How do you handle problems related to upstream not ready to patch/create man pages according to lintian standards. Will Debian/Ubuntu always keep dpatching them? Or say upstream is not that active.
[13:30] <persia> Hobbsee: Ah.  After FF.  Hmm.  I'll see about that somehow (and don't have an answer now).
[13:31] <mruiz> dholbach, for me is new . I expected rezound files ... it uses cdbs
[13:31] <dholbach> mruiz: it seems that they use tarball.mk (where you drop the upstream tarball into it)
[13:31] <persia> mruiz: You've encountered the dreaded tarball-in-tarball.  cdbs-edit-patch or dpatch-edit-patch should untar to allow you to patch.
[13:32] <dholbach> tuxmaniac: it's perfectly acceptable to keep an added manpage as a patch if upstream does not respond to a bug that requests adding it
[13:32] <mruiz> dholbach, indeed debian/rules includes /usr/share/cdbs/1/rules/tarball.mk
[13:32] <dholbach> tuxmaniac: there's no need to make it a patch, you can simply add it to the debian directory and list it in debian/manpages
[13:32] <persia> tuxmaniac: That is part of what MOTU does: make sure the packages meet our policies.  If upstream will accept patches, that is good.  If not, we have to carry them.
[13:32] <mruiz> dholbach, for this case, how should I package the upgrade ?
[13:33] <persia> mruiz: Best to check with the Debian maintainer to see if they want tarball-in-tarball again so that the orig.tar.gz can be the same and it can later be a sync.
[13:33] <mruiz> persia, thanks :D
[13:33] <dholbach> mruiz: I'm not sure it's the most elegant way but what should work is; mkdir reszound-<version>; cp -r rezound-<oldversion>/debian rezound-<version>.tar.gz rezound-<version>
[13:34] <dholbach> (and change the version in debian/rules if necessary)
[13:34] <dholbach> there's something that intrigued me about tarball.mk when I started packaging, but I forgot what it was and find it a bit annoying today :)
[13:34]  * mruiz prefers debhelper instead of cdbs
[13:35] <dholbach> tuxmaniac: did that answer your question?
[13:35] <mruiz> dholbach, persia : thanks for your guidance ;-) ...
[13:35] <tuxmaniac> dholbach, yes.
[13:35] <dholbach> great
[13:36] <dholbach> any other questions? anything we should take a look at together?
[13:36]  * warp10 has a question
[13:36] <dholbach> warp10: great
[13:36] <Hobbsee> dholbach: can i have a heater?
[13:37]  * Hobbsee is freezing!
[13:37] <dholbach> Hobbsee: that's a good question - it's cold here too
[13:37]  * persia is happy: 18 degrees of pure warmth
[13:37] <warp10> I am packaging a software that creates an empty dir (/usr/share/locale) and lintian raises a warning about that
[13:38] <warp10> Do I need to fix that? And if I do, what's best: using an rm in debian/control or patching upstream Makefile?
[13:38] <ScottK> Hobbsee: If you're test building stuff you've packaged, your computer will warm the room.
[13:39] <Hobbsee> ScottK: yeah, but i'd prefer a slight lack of fire
[13:39] <dholbach> warp10: it's definitely a good idea to find out what's creating the directory - to me it looks like it's lacking translations that are installed there
[13:41] <warp10> dholbach: indeed. the po/ is almost empty, but there is a Makefile.in.in that creates that directory
[13:41] <dholbach> /usr/share/locale is a good thing - so the better fix might be to find out why no translations are shipped
[13:42] <tuxmaniac> [repeat post] darn my network
[13:42] <tuxmaniac> there was a bug 189030. It was a sync request.
[13:42] <tuxmaniac> Build failed on hppa architecture, but still the status is Fix released?
[13:42] <tuxmaniac> or how does one resolve such arch dependent issues in MOTU.
[13:42] <tuxmaniac> [end]
[13:42] <dholbach> in all other cases it's acceptable to remove an empty directory (if you can't figure out why or how it's created)
[13:42] <Hobbsee> tuxmaniac: one doesn't care about hppa, unless one's name is lamont.
[13:42] <Hobbsee> :)
[13:42] <tuxmaniac> Hobbsee, heheh
[13:42] <warp10> dholbach: probably upstream would like to add locales, but haven't been added yet
[13:42] <persia> tuxmaniac: Currently "Fix Released" means the source fix was released.  You found a different bug.
[13:43] <dholbach> tuxmaniac: the sync was executed so the bug is fixed - that it fails to build on one architecture is a different bug
[13:43] <warp10> dholbach: ok, so an rm in debian/rules would be enough?
[13:43] <dholbach> warp10: are there *.po files?
[13:43] <tuxmaniac> aah true. thanks dholbach persia
[13:43] <warp10> dholbach: no *.po files there
[13:44] <dholbach> warp10: I personally would leave the directory there and ignore lintian
[13:44] <dholbach> maybe the next release ships translations
[13:44] <dholbach> in that case you will have to re-review debian/rules every time
[13:44] <dholbach> (and by mistake ship the good translations :))
[13:44] <dholbach> (and by mistake *not* ship the good translations :))
[13:45] <warp10> dholbach: yeah, maybe. Good idea, I'll do that. Thanks :)
[13:45] <dholbach> no problem
[13:45] <dholbach> more questions? :)
[13:45] <shibata> I have a questiion. I have translated documents in packaging-guide package to Japanese, but it seems to be obsolete document compare to on wiki. Do you have plan to release new packaging-guide or other MOTU's documents until hardy release?
[13:45] <persia> Note that this makes sense for directories like /usr/share/locale which can be expected to be on a user system.  For directories like /usr/lib/mypackage/quux/plugins/foo/ removal is a better option.
[13:46] <persia> shibata: Thank you very much, but no.  The wiki is replacing the package.  Perhaps you could put the translated documentation on the wiki?
[13:46] <dholbach> that would be great
[13:47] <dholbach> thanks a lot for the work you put into translating it
[13:47] <mruiz> dholbach, do you have a schedule (or deadline) for the packaging guide?
[13:47] <persia> dholbach: Have you filed for removal of that confusing package?
[13:47] <shibata> persia: Should I translate bese on wiki?
[13:47] <dholbach> persia: I'll talk to mdke about it
[13:47] <persia> shibata: If you have the time to translate the wiki instead, that would be even better :)
[13:48] <dholbach> do we have a canonical way of doing translations on the wiki?
[13:48] <persia> (of course, if there was a sane method to exchange email between Ubuntu and 携帯 it would be more useful)
[13:48] <dholbach> or would it just be  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/<PackagingGuide in Japanese> ?
[13:50] <dholbach> how do you say PackagingGuide in Japanese? :)
[13:50] <shibata> Now, I translate on Japanese LoCo Wiki.
[13:50] <persia> dholbach: MoinMoin has some multilingual features: lots of boilerplate is autotranslated to Japanese from a Japanese browser.  I'm not sure how it works though.  Be nice to leverage that if possible.
[13:51] <dholbach> persia: I'll look into it
[13:51] <shibata> https://wiki.ubuntulinux.jp/UbuntuPackagingGuideJa/
[13:51] <dholbach> thanks for your work on it shibata
[13:51] <persia> shibata: Until there is some reasonable documentation on the wiki about how to do proper multilingual pages, that's a very good place.  Thanks again.
[13:52] <dholbach> I can't understand it, but it's beautiful
[13:52]  * dholbach loves looking at 'foreign characters' :)
[13:53] <shibata> If translate on official wiki, do I use same way Ubuntu Weekly Newsletter?
[13:54] <dholbach> shibata: we could do that - I'll try to find out if there's a different way to do it and let you know
[13:54] <eradicus> cool
[13:55] <shibata> dholbach, persia: thanks
[13:55] <dholbach> shibata: thank you
[13:55] <dholbach> pango and gtk seem to figure out where a new japanese word starts, but it's hard for me to "see it"
[13:56] <persia> dholbach: That's OK.  Even humans determine word breaks by context and meaning rather than graphical representation.
[13:56] <dholbach> yeah :)
[13:57] <mruiz> :)
[13:58] <dholbach> any other questions?
[13:59] <dholbach> if not, I'd take my dog for a walk now and see you in #ubuntu-motu later on :)
[13:59] <dholbach> thanks everybody for showing up and asking very good questions
[13:59] <dholbach> and thanks to everybody helping to answer the questions
[14:00] <shibata> thank you
[14:00] <mruiz> thanks guys