=== Ketzal is now known as Ketzal_out === asac_ is now known as asac [10:41] Hi all! === \sh_away is now known as \sh [12:51] MOTU Q&A session in #ubuntu-classroom [13:00] hello everybody and welcome to another MOTU Q&A session! who do we have here for the session today? [13:01] * dholbach is Daniel Holbach and seems until now to be alone in this session :-) [13:01] * DktrKranz is Luca Falavigna, and please don't ask hard questions :) [13:02] * dholbach hugs DktrKranz [13:02] * mruiz is Miguel Ruiz... MOTU hopeful [13:02] * persia is Emmet Hikory, present but slow to respond. [13:03] * Hobbsee is absent. [13:03] it seems the MOTU Q&A session could do with some more advertising :) [13:03] do we have anybody with questions around? [13:04] * slytherin is Onkar, MOTU hopeful and bugs persia and geser most of the time on #ubuntu-motu for solving java related problems. [13:04] thanks a lot for your work on that, slytherin [13:05] dholbach: I am glad I could help [13:06] dholbach, days ago I received a build error message: https://edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/doc-debian/3.1.5ubuntu1/+build/502337. I'm wondering if someone could help me ... [13:06] mruiz: great - let's take a look at it [13:07] Build finished at 20080131-1850 [13:07] to me it looks like it succeeded [13:07] Status: Failed to upload [13:07] the upload to the archive was rejected... more details: http://pastebin.ubuntu.com/4339/ [13:07] mruiz: You've caught an odd one: Failed to Upload [13:07] These typically indicate some oddity inside Soyuz at the time of the build [13:07] Failed to Upload, cprov's fault :) [13:08] best to ask cprov or more generally on #launchpad [13:08] I'd suggest asking a buildd admin to take a look on #ubuntu-devel (although bugging cprov on #launchpad is also known to help) [13:10] * warp10 joins the session a little late... sorry! [13:10] hello warp10 [13:10] this package includes documentation, but it generates not only .deb files ... some txt files appeared [13:10] I have one question. What is general criteria for approval of MOTU membership? [13:10] hi dholbach and all [13:11] slytherin: a good track record of doing good work in the team and usually the best indicator is if your sponsors are completely happy with your work [13:11] :) [13:11] when applicants ask me for my opinion as a MC member, I ask them to talk to their sponsors and get their input on the matter [13:12] dholbach: Does that mean it is best to have most of your work sponsored by same person? [13:12] slytherin: no, it's very good to work with a variety of people - as you tend to learn more that way [13:12] that's why the general sponsoring process is a good thing [13:13] Ok [13:13] dholbach, indeed... we have to work with the team :D [13:13] slytherin: I would recommend having your work be sponsored by many people. Ideally you'll start working on something in such a way that you are working with your sponsors as peers, rather than as sponsors. [13:13] :-) [13:13] At this point, they are typically more than happy to say anything good about you it takes so that you can upload on your own. [13:14] And how do I decide when I am ready for membership? :-D [13:15] slytherin: That's a little more well defined. You need "significant and sustained" contrinbutions, which is often interpreted as at least 2-6 months of stuff (depending on activity level), and attaining the respect and commendations of your peers working in that area. [13:15] (if you refer to ubuntumembers membership) [13:15] dholbach: No, I am talking MOTU membership [13:16] (yes. one should wait for at least two sponsors to prompt prior to applying for membership of MOTU) [13:16] if you refer to MOTU membership instead: ask people that you've worked with (your sponsors), look at previous applications [13:16] slytherin: In that case, I answered the wrong question. [13:16] persia: Your latest answer is what I was looking for. :-) [13:17] I've found it's common for me to be pushing people to apply before they think they are ready. I've also seen people turned down that applied to soon. [13:17] Waiting for sponsors to suggest it is a good idea. [13:19] if it happens regularly to you that your patches are sponsored as they are, that's a good sign :) [13:20] Personally, I think other good signs are MOTUs asking you for your opinion on various issues, finding that you have good answers to other Contributor questions, etc. [13:21] I guess I will wait for few weeks more. :-) [13:23] slytherin: It's great to have you on the team :-) [13:23] do we have any other questions? [13:26] no questions? :) [13:26] * Hobbsee is sure someone has a question [13:27] If there are no questions, all Contributors in the audience should go find a bug, and submit for sponsoring. Any issues encountered may be considered questions. [13:27] hey dholbach [13:27] hey mruiz :) [13:27] persia: that's a good one :) [13:27] guess I am late.. [13:28] tuxmaniac: no, not at all! :) [13:28] tuxmaniac: Late is acceptable, as long as you have a question or want an answer :) [13:28] if you have a question, fire away :) [13:28] I was working on a upgrade bug... (rezound) and I discovered a strange way to package it. [13:29] dholbach: i have a question. what should someone do, that is actually useful, if they can't get a MOTU to review their stuff - particularly a new package on REVU? [13:29] mruiz: what's the problem you're seeing? [13:30] Hobbsee: There are cases of that? Which package: I'll review it now. [13:30] rezound directory only contains: debian rezound-0.12.2beta.tar.gz rezound-0.12.2beta.tar.gz.cdbs-config_list [13:30] persia: i'm talking in the generic case - perhaps not so much now, but it certainly used to be a problem [13:30] and probably will be, after ff [13:30] How do you handle problems related to upstream not ready to patch/create man pages according to lintian standards. Will Debian/Ubuntu always keep dpatching them? Or say upstream is not that active. [13:30] Hobbsee: Ah. After FF. Hmm. I'll see about that somehow (and don't have an answer now). [13:31] dholbach, for me is new . I expected rezound files ... it uses cdbs [13:31] mruiz: it seems that they use tarball.mk (where you drop the upstream tarball into it) [13:31] mruiz: You've encountered the dreaded tarball-in-tarball. cdbs-edit-patch or dpatch-edit-patch should untar to allow you to patch. [13:32] tuxmaniac: it's perfectly acceptable to keep an added manpage as a patch if upstream does not respond to a bug that requests adding it [13:32] dholbach, indeed debian/rules includes /usr/share/cdbs/1/rules/tarball.mk [13:32] tuxmaniac: there's no need to make it a patch, you can simply add it to the debian directory and list it in debian/manpages [13:32] tuxmaniac: That is part of what MOTU does: make sure the packages meet our policies. If upstream will accept patches, that is good. If not, we have to carry them. [13:32] dholbach, for this case, how should I package the upgrade ? [13:33] mruiz: Best to check with the Debian maintainer to see if they want tarball-in-tarball again so that the orig.tar.gz can be the same and it can later be a sync. [13:33] persia, thanks :D [13:33] mruiz: I'm not sure it's the most elegant way but what should work is; mkdir reszound-; cp -r rezound-/debian rezound-.tar.gz rezound- [13:34] (and change the version in debian/rules if necessary) [13:34] there's something that intrigued me about tarball.mk when I started packaging, but I forgot what it was and find it a bit annoying today :) [13:34] * mruiz prefers debhelper instead of cdbs [13:35] tuxmaniac: did that answer your question? [13:35] dholbach, persia : thanks for your guidance ;-) ... [13:35] dholbach, yes. [13:35] great [13:36] any other questions? anything we should take a look at together? [13:36] * warp10 has a question [13:36] warp10: great [13:36] dholbach: can i have a heater? [13:37] * Hobbsee is freezing! [13:37] Hobbsee: that's a good question - it's cold here too [13:37] * persia is happy: 18 degrees of pure warmth [13:37] I am packaging a software that creates an empty dir (/usr/share/locale) and lintian raises a warning about that [13:38] Do I need to fix that? And if I do, what's best: using an rm in debian/control or patching upstream Makefile? [13:38] Hobbsee: If you're test building stuff you've packaged, your computer will warm the room. [13:39] ScottK: yeah, but i'd prefer a slight lack of fire [13:39] warp10: it's definitely a good idea to find out what's creating the directory - to me it looks like it's lacking translations that are installed there [13:41] dholbach: indeed. the po/ is almost empty, but there is a Makefile.in.in that creates that directory === LifeHacker is now known as tuxmaniac [13:41] /usr/share/locale is a good thing - so the better fix might be to find out why no translations are shipped [13:42] [repeat post] darn my network [13:42] there was a bug 189030. It was a sync request. [13:42] Build failed on hppa architecture, but still the status is Fix released? [13:42] or how does one resolve such arch dependent issues in MOTU. [13:42] [end] [13:42] in all other cases it's acceptable to remove an empty directory (if you can't figure out why or how it's created) [13:42] tuxmaniac: one doesn't care about hppa, unless one's name is lamont. [13:42] :) [13:42] Hobbsee, heheh [13:42] dholbach: probably upstream would like to add locales, but haven't been added yet [13:42] tuxmaniac: Currently "Fix Released" means the source fix was released. You found a different bug. [13:43] tuxmaniac: the sync was executed so the bug is fixed - that it fails to build on one architecture is a different bug [13:43] dholbach: ok, so an rm in debian/rules would be enough? [13:43] warp10: are there *.po files? [13:43] aah true. thanks dholbach persia [13:43] dholbach: no *.po files there [13:44] warp10: I personally would leave the directory there and ignore lintian [13:44] maybe the next release ships translations [13:44] in that case you will have to re-review debian/rules every time [13:44] (and by mistake ship the good translations :)) [13:44] (and by mistake *not* ship the good translations :)) [13:45] dholbach: yeah, maybe. Good idea, I'll do that. Thanks :) [13:45] no problem [13:45] more questions? :) [13:45] I have a questiion. I have translated documents in packaging-guide package to Japanese, but it seems to be obsolete document compare to on wiki. Do you have plan to release new packaging-guide or other MOTU's documents until hardy release? [13:45] Note that this makes sense for directories like /usr/share/locale which can be expected to be on a user system. For directories like /usr/lib/mypackage/quux/plugins/foo/ removal is a better option. [13:46] shibata: Thank you very much, but no. The wiki is replacing the package. Perhaps you could put the translated documentation on the wiki? [13:46] that would be great [13:47] thanks a lot for the work you put into translating it [13:47] dholbach, do you have a schedule (or deadline) for the packaging guide? [13:47] dholbach: Have you filed for removal of that confusing package? [13:47] persia: Should I translate bese on wiki? [13:47] persia: I'll talk to mdke about it [13:47] shibata: If you have the time to translate the wiki instead, that would be even better :) [13:48] do we have a canonical way of doing translations on the wiki? [13:48] (of course, if there was a sane method to exchange email between Ubuntu and 携帯 it would be more useful) [13:48] or would it just be https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ ? [13:50] how do you say PackagingGuide in Japanese? :) [13:50] Now, I translate on Japanese LoCo Wiki. [13:50] dholbach: MoinMoin has some multilingual features: lots of boilerplate is autotranslated to Japanese from a Japanese browser. I'm not sure how it works though. Be nice to leverage that if possible. [13:51] persia: I'll look into it [13:51] https://wiki.ubuntulinux.jp/UbuntuPackagingGuideJa/ [13:51] thanks for your work on it shibata [13:51] shibata: Until there is some reasonable documentation on the wiki about how to do proper multilingual pages, that's a very good place. Thanks again. [13:52] I can't understand it, but it's beautiful [13:52] * dholbach loves looking at 'foreign characters' :) [13:53] If translate on official wiki, do I use same way Ubuntu Weekly Newsletter? [13:54] shibata: we could do that - I'll try to find out if there's a different way to do it and let you know [13:54] cool [13:55] dholbach, persia: thanks [13:55] shibata: thank you [13:55] pango and gtk seem to figure out where a new japanese word starts, but it's hard for me to "see it" [13:56] dholbach: That's OK. Even humans determine word breaks by context and meaning rather than graphical representation. [13:56] yeah :) [13:57] :) === pedro__ is now known as pedro_ [13:58] any other questions? [13:59] if not, I'd take my dog for a walk now and see you in #ubuntu-motu later on :) [13:59] thanks everybody for showing up and asking very good questions [13:59] and thanks to everybody helping to answer the questions [14:00] thank you [14:00] thanks guys === Ketzal is now known as Ketzal_out === never|mobi is now known as neversfelde|mobi === \sh is now known as \sh_away === crd1b is now known as crdlb === croppa_ is now known as croppa === crd1b is now known as crdlb