=== Toma-- is now known as Toma-
=== andreasn_ is now known as andreasn
bert_hi, can someone tell me if I'm free to use the ubuntu artwork (like orange arrows) ?19:30
troy_sbert_: Find the license19:36
troy_sbert_: I would think that at a bare minimum, the licence would be CC by SA19:37
troy_sbert_: Or better.19:37
troy_sbert_: Does that help you?19:37
troy_sbert_: There are only particular 'closed' mentality clauses on things that involve the actual Ubuntu logo or the Ubuntu text.19:37
bert_kind of, well I just want to use the left and right pointing arrows that come by default in ubuntu (nautilus)19:37
bert_so I can just use those if I want ?19:38
troy_sbert_: As I said19:39
bert_okey, thanks troy_s19:39
troy_sbert_: You will need to know for certain, and that means19:40
troy_sbert_: tracking down the license.19:40
troy_sbert_: I say this because in SOME instances, the license is missing for parts of the artwork and we need to know about it.19:40
bert_well, as it is in ubuntu main I think it should be under a OS license19:40
troy_sbert_: So you can not only help yourself, but you can help the community at large.19:40
troy_sbert_: You _think_... :) - the reality is that some mistakes might be in there.19:40
troy_sbert_: I believe the arrows in question fall under the jurisdiction of the Human icon set19:41
troy_sbert_: And that license should be easy to find.19:41
bert_yeah, I'm going to check it now19:41
troy_sbert_: Thanks.19:41
troy_sbert_: http://packages.debian.org/sid/x11/human-icon-theme19:42
troy_sbert_: States 'non-free' which means it has either 1) odd clauses or 2) isn't a Debian approved licence or both.19:42
troy_sbert_: The Human Icon Theme is licensed under the Creative Commons Legal Code19:43
troy_sAttribution-ShareAlike 2.519:43
troy_sbert_: That assumes that the two icons you wish to use are covered in that repository package.19:44
bert_damn, I was trying to find that :P19:44
bert_so that means that I have to place the names of the makers somewhere, right ?19:45
thorwilattribution of course means that you have to print some text referinbg to the origin right on top of the arrows! ;)19:45
bert_lol :P19:46
thorwilin theory, those who use attribution should define how it should be done themselves19:46
thorwilin practice, i havn't seen anyone doing it. i don't do it myself19:47
troy_sthorwil: Actually, it is much like the GPL19:47
troy_sthorwil: You must include the license with the file etc., etc.,19:47
thorwilbert_: where do you want to use those arrows?19:47
troy_sthorwil: I believe the commons site has a 'bare minimum' guideline.19:48
bert_but if I put something in the meta data of my webpage like "arrows from the human icon theme, more info on" and then a link to the copyright thing19:48
troy_sbert_: Check the license itself.19:48
bert_troy_s, I'm not a native english speaker so I don't fully understand the license19:48
troy_sbert_: If you can chat here, you should be able to understand their FAQ>19:49
bert_thx troy_s19:49
troy_sbert_: If you can't, please ask someone to help you.  Anyone around in here will probably at least _try_.19:51
bert_yeah, I'm reading the faq now and it's a lot clearer then the license text itself19:52
thorwilto me, lawyer speak in english is only slightly harder to read than in my native language :)19:53
troy_sbert_: the proper way of accrediting your use of a work when you're making a verbatim use is: (1) to keep intact any copyright notices for the Work; (2) credit the author, licensor and/or other parties (such as a wiki or journal) in the manner they specify; (3) the title of the Work; and (4) the Uniform Resource Identifier for the work if specified by the author and/or licensor.19:53
troy_sbert_: Yes... as the FAQ states -- there are 3 parts -- the legal one isn't expected to be understood by everyone19:53
thorwilpoint 2 is what i was referring to19:53
troy_sthorwil: Whatever manner specified (if it is)19:54
troy_sthorwil: Relatively clear.  Generally, that indicates that the names be intact in the license.  Although, if someone is angry with how you use their work, they can request to be removed from that acknowledgement.19:54
troy_sthorwil: As is assured under the license.19:54
bert_so if I put in meta data on a webpage that the arrows are from the human icon theme, which is copyright by canonical (copy past fromt he debian stuff) and quote the upstream authors it's okey ?19:55
troy_sbert_: You need to only worry about the license19:55
troy_sbert_: And all that it implies19:55
troy_sbert_: That clause will help, but bear in mind the following sentence:19:55
troy_sYou also need to provide the Uniform Resource Locator for the Creative Commons license that applies to the work, together with each copy of the work that you make available.19:55
troy_sbert_: Read the section " How do I properly attribute a Creative Commons licensed work?"19:56
troy_sbert_: Until you at least understand the bare minimum that the license requires.  Then (as said earlier in the document) look at the particular license -- in this case I believe it is CC by SA 2.5.19:56
thorwilbert_: doing all this properly isn't worth it for 2 arrows, i'd say19:57
thorwilwhich can be taken 2 ways :)19:57
bert_yeah I know it's stupid19:57
bert_but I think licensing is important19:57
bert_it's what gives us the freedom to share in the open source world19:57
thorwilit is19:57
troy_sbert_: It is... and bear in mind19:58
troy_sbert_: That you only need to learn how to do something once.19:58
troy_sbert_: I think what you are doing is extremely worthwhile.19:58
troy_sbert_: And it will help 1) you _now_ 2) others in the future if you help them 3) others who have licenced work that you might see being used incorrectly etc.19:58
troy_sbert_: It is a far far far cry from stupid.19:59
troy_sThe number of people who use or fail to understand licenses is massive.  Learning how the license works and how to properly cite it is ... helluva important.  Ask any MOTU about crappy applications of license terms and you might get an earful.20:00
bert_so if I understand this paragraph right I have to say that the human icon theme is licensed under the Creative Common Legal Code Attrubution-ShareAlike 2.5, copyright by canonical Ltd., made by -quote the names-20:00
bert_(that's kind of what the FAQ says20:01
troy_sbert_: I would think that something along those lines, with a link to the actual license (see follow up sentence) would suffice.20:01
troy_sbert_: And it specifically mentions metadata usage.20:01
bert_I don't get that last phrase ?20:02
troy_sbert_: Keep intact the license (1), (2) credit the author in the manner they request, (3) maintain title, (4) the URI of the work and or licensor, and the follow up sentence (5) URI to the Creative commons license itself.20:03
troy_sbert_: So if you want to bury it in the metadata, that appears fine.20:03
bert_so I just put all of that in metadata and I'm fine then20:04
troy_sbert_: Be aware of the 'share alike' clause20:04
bert_yeah, that's very important indeed20:04
troy_sbert_: It is rather like the GPL20:04
troy_sbert_: That basically means that your 'body of work' becomes share alike, IIRC.20:04
bert_thanks troy_sand thorwil20:04
troy_sbert_: No problem bert_ ... share the knowledge.20:04
bert_well, the GPL is easier, because I really know that license very well20:05
thorwiltroy_s: doesn't that only apply if he modifies the material?20:05
bert_(atleast version 2)20:05
troy_sthorwil: I believe the "ShareAlike" (and only the share alike) pulls you into a share alike clause.20:05
troy_sthorwil: Hence the extra 'share alike' license... it is more or less a GPLesque license.20:05
bert_indeed, lol :p20:06
bert_why isn't everything just licensed under the GPL :P20:06
thorwiltroy_s: i mean to remember that sharealike deals with derivatives and keeping them open20:06
thorwilbecause the GPL was made for code20:06
troy_sthorwil: Wow.  Here is an interesting question...20:06
troy_sthorwil: You just read the list post?20:06
thorwiltroy_s: eh, which one?20:07
troy_sthorwil: If someone works in Photoshop or another proprietary format, I wonder if providing the source actually abides by licensing.20:07
thorwilah, that one20:07
troy_sthorwil: As technically, providing the source in a proprietary format is rather... useless really.20:07
troy_sthorwil: Not really an issue in code, but heading into the new art and design frontier it seems relevant.20:07
bert_yeah, kind of20:07
thorwili thought by myself: yuck, photoshop. then i wondered if i'm a zealot now ;)20:08
bert_don't you guys do artwork in the gimp ?20:08
bert_of inkscape ?20:08
troy_sthorwil: Yep you are.20:08
troy_sbert_: I am a huge fan of inkscape20:08
thorwilinkscape is enlightened!20:08
troy_sbert_: I believe that the future of raster imaging lie in 1) nodal compositing and 2) vectors20:08
bert_vectors are cool :p20:08
troy_sbert_: There are some _amazing_ examples of work out there done entirely using vectors -- some might trick you into thinking that they were developed in a raster program.20:08
bert_I hope the future lies in formates like SVG20:09
bert_that would make life a lot easier20:09
troy_sbert_: There is a _lot_ of upside to traditional work done in vector.20:09
troy_sbert_: The fact that you can generally go in and change a brushstroke, a tonal range, etc., has massive upside.20:10
thorwilSVG has its limitations20:10
thorwillike no way to express gradient meshes directly20:10
bert_thorwil: yeah that's thru, that's why I say formates like SVG20:10
bert_it's just that it makes resizing so easy20:11
thorwili have been playing with synfig. there you can create a gradient that follows a path. and the width of the gradient depends on the stroke width of siad path. that's so wicked and wouldn't fit into SVG20:11
bert_throrwil: that would make a huge SVG :P20:12
troy_sthorwil: There is a gradient mesh roadmap in place I believe.20:12
troy_sthorwil: That is SVG compliant.20:12
thorwiltroy_s: there has been some brainstorming how it could be done, yes20:12
troy_sthorwil: That said, there is nothing wrong with drawing it.20:12
bert_I learned some SVG image creation (the code) back in september, I wanted to use it for stats but IE didn't support it so they didn't want me to use it...20:13
bert_but it has limitations20:13
bert_and the file size can grow if you use things like gradients20:13
thorwilSVGs compress very well20:13
thorwiland aren't SVGZs part of the spec?20:14
troy_sthorwil: Not to mention that they work amazingly well in version control systems as they are xml files.20:14
bert_yeah, it's text, so it compresses very easy20:15
thorwiland here i am, still using *01.xxx, *02.xxx :)20:15
bert_lol :p20:16
bert_say, learning the gimp or inkscape (but learning as in "I can use this program properly and know how to do prety most every usefull tool) ?20:18
bert_it that hard ?20:18
troy_sbert_: Yes.  Inkscape is damn hard to 'learn' as there are almost always new things added weekely in subtle and not so subtle ways.20:19
thorwilyes. about 18 hard20:19
troy_sbert_: It is rather evolutionary... if you run with an SVN version, you just sort of go 'Ok ... that's different'.  Not to mention that the actual program does a lot more than what is documented.20:19
bert_and the gimp ?20:20
troy_sbert_: Sometimes a feature is a hidden keystroke because it is still in development, or it was just something added that came in under the radar.20:20
bert_or is inkscape just so much better that we don't have to talk about the gimp :P20:20
thorwildepends on the task20:20
troy_sbert_: Depends.  If you want to do any sort of high end photo manipulation, I would avoid the GIMP and go with Blender.20:20
bert_blender ?20:20
thorwilonly if you like noodles20:21
bert_ow you don't mean blender 3D :P20:21
troy_sbert_: It is about the only tool that will let you adjust raw files properly.20:21
troy_sbert_: And nodal compositing has been the defacto professional standard in high end imaging for a long long time.20:21
thorwiloh, that's new to me20:21
bert_can you edit pictures in blender 3D ?20:21
troy_sbert_: Yes.  Depends on what you mean by 'edit' of course.20:22
troy_sbert_: You can do full compositing, etc.  There are a few lower level paint functions as well.20:22
thorwilbert_: i think after an investment of only 4 or 5 hours, you might have found out where and how to edit pictures in it :)20:23
bert_I tried to learn 3D moddeling with blender 2 years ago I think, but it was quite hard, to many key combinations and buttons :P20:23
troy_sbert_: Now that Cinepaint is more or less off the map, Blender is the only resource available for >8bpc imaging.20:23
troy_sbert_: You obviously haven't been near Maya or Nuke or Shake :)20:23
thorwiltroy_s: cinepaint is off the map?20:24
troy_sbert_: Let's face it -- all things are complicated if you expect power... even Inkscape is a far cry from 'simple' really.20:24
troy_sthorwil: Yes.20:24
bert_maya is properietary and comercial right20:24
troy_sthorwil: I believe it is not in 8.04 for example.20:24
troy_sbert_: Yes.20:24
troy_sbert_: The visual effects industry, in a roundabout way, have turned into great supporters of open standards20:24
bert_yeah, but is inkscape as complicated as the blender interface ?20:25
thorwilnot even close20:25
troy_sbert_: Because they, unlike most people who preach Photoshop etc., realize that particular applications server particular roles in their workflow.20:25
troy_sbert_: No.  But getting the full horsepower out of Inkscape is at least as involved with the learning curve.20:25
thorwilbert_: i think inkscape has a very low barrier to entry20:25
bert_well, photoshop is evil :P20:25
troy_sbert_: not really evil, but the people who are responsible for the huge budget productions can't rely on a single tool.  It just won't deliver.20:26
troy_sbert_: Hence the rather ubiquitous nature of OpenEXR20:26
troy_sbert_: Every single professional app on the map needs to support that format or provide a way to get to and from it.20:26
bert_well, photoshop is just so pushed into people, you can't go around it20:26
bert_it's everywhere20:27
bert_and it's always very expensive (and also pirated)20:27
troy_sbert_: Most of the mainstream productions houses out there have a good deal of in house proprietary apps.20:27
bert_yeah, if you speak about artwork people seem to automatically think "photoshop"20:27
troy_sbert_: Hell... extend that to the video game industry as well... in-house tools are all over.20:27
thorwili was under the impression that every kid, grandma and the dog have a copy of it to brigehtn some holiday pictures. illegal copy in most cases, of course20:27
troy_sbert_: Photoshop does what it does amazingly well.20:27
troy_sbert_: But there are zealots who prefer Corel Painter for example.20:28
thorwilafter all these years it would be sad if it didn't20:28
bert_I have a copy of CS3 over here :P20:28
troy_sbert_: It really is ... irrelevant.20:28
thorwili mean, it's not from microsoft20:28
troy_sbert_: The ease of piracy is yet one more problem that FOSS is up against.20:28
bert_yeah that's thru20:28
troy_sbert_: When it comes to art though, ultimately, it is the ability of the individual.20:29
thorwilbert_: painter is made for digital painting, not manipulating photos. of course there's huge overlap20:29
troy_sbert_: And the willingness / want for change.20:29
troy_sthorwil: Photoshop has more or less grown into the poor man's compositor.20:29
troy_sthorwil: Layers is ... dated as hell.20:30
bert_the problem here with many of the people I know is that they are afraid of change (speaking of FOSS)20:30
thorwilbert_: like troy here would beat any noob with a pc and offset printer just using potatoe stamps ;)20:30
troy_sGah.  Hardly.20:30
troy_sI am just a mookie hack of no consequence.20:31
troy_sI am still awaiting someone to arrive on the scene with some ability and show the nay sayers what is possible.20:31
troy_sbert_: Strange thing that eh?20:32
bert_well, not really20:32
bert_the one will come20:32
troy_sbert_: We have a culture that has become uber-conservative.  The only real way to compete now will be to unleash the true potential for innovation.20:32
bert_he will follow the fat pinguin right to zenity :P20:32
troy_sbert_: We are trapped in a culture that lauds the absolutely backwards work in Fedora 8 or the new SUSE.  We have much to learn.20:33
bert_troy_s: how do you mean, the linux operating system is more innovative then vista, that's for usre :P20:33
thorwiltroy_s: the funny thing is, now that gimp will have a nodal system as underpinnings (gegl), the interaction architect working on it wants to hide that aspect and the developers seem to agree20:33
troy_sbert_: Actually, most of what I see every day (and I try to absorb as much as I can) is a shoddy imitation of a poor duplication.20:34
bert_how do you mean troy_s ?20:34
troy_sthorwil: Yeah... exactly.  Lack of experience in the real world perhaps.  Creating a powerful tool with nodal compositing at its core would be extremely attractive to a number of extremely high profile users.20:34
troy_sbert_: Somewhere at our core is the geeky insecurity factor -- the inability to be something distinctive and new.20:35
bert_well, I don't see that in ubuntu to be onest20:35
troy_sbert_: We have grown quite a bit over the past even four years in this regard, but the attitude still persists underneath the decision making process.20:35
bert_(and I'm probably now going to hear that ubuntu is made to easy and lacks functionallity but I don't agree to thatà20:36
bert_so you mean that linux users think they are better then windows users, and that that is our problem ?20:36
troy_sbert_: Not from me.  I spent 100% of my life on free software.  It isn't an option to discuss how something doesn't work etc.20:36
thorwilno, the thing is more that there's almost alyways a commercial model app or system that is being copied to some degre20:36
troy_sthorwil: +120:36
troy_sbert_: That is exactly the problem.20:36
bert_well, I can't deny that20:37
troy_sbert_: Part of that is probably the nature of dev -- SVN and CVS weren't so great with 'branches'.20:37
troy_sbert_: The reality is that there _are_ some amazingly gifted creative types out there with fascinating and new ideas.20:37
thorwilbut luckily, there are examples like ardour, starting out as a protools clone and now changing more and more into a thing of its own20:37
bert_I like to laugh with people who are complaining about some virusses and then i just come and delete them from their windows boxes and then I think, thank God I run linux20:37
troy_sbert_: I want to see more of what _they_ see.20:37
troy_sthorwil: Probably a maturity thing.20:38
bert_so you think linux is to busy trying to beat windows by making stuff there already is20:38
bert_and that they should be busy making stuff there isn't yet20:38
bert_right ?20:38
thorwiltroy_s: as much as i'm in love with solid design processes from the start, thsi copy first and then see approach can work nicely20:39
thorwilbert_: right20:39
troy_sbert_: Personally, if we are talking about pushing the future forward and innovation, the terms 'Apple' and 'Microsoft' have no place in the sentence.20:39
troy_sbert_: Nor the term 'beat'.20:39
bert_yeah, you have a point20:39
troy_sbert_: Relative world.  Who is the "Toughest fighter"?  What is the "best piece of art"?  What is the "best food"?20:39
thorwilwell, on that perspective it's all about being as good as possible20:39
bert_but I'm afraid that you're not going to get the competif part out of the linux geek...20:40
thorwili wouldn't want to20:40
troy_sthorwil: I think the design process depends on your team.  As J. Ive has said time and time again, the thing he will remember from his work isn't the work, but the process.20:40
troy_sbert_: The number one factor to getting Linux into mainstream is to have everyone who is working on it realize they aren't a good audience.20:40
troy_sand arguably, Free Software is mainstream now.20:41
troy_sthe bigger fight comes.20:41
bert_well, 2008 is the year of linux according to Linus Torvalds :p20:41
bert_(when was the year he hasn't said that ? )20:41
troy_sbert_: I'd say that when a product or item gets onto the BBC or the Wall Street Journal, it happened.  That happened this year with at least a few products.20:41
troy_sbert_: The demon is in the details.20:42
troy_sbert_: Art and design start taking a center stage now.20:42
troy_sbert_: Nebulous concepts such as presence and such.20:42
thorwilhow can they with so few designers around?20:42
bert_well, linux will come in the news soon, if more and more goverments switch to linux20:43
troy_sbert_: We at Ubuntu still can't avoid huge gaffs... Look at www.ubuntu.com as a starting point.20:43
bert_and I think that'll happen soon20:43
bert_I'm on ubuntu20:43
troy_sthorwil: It is certainly a fight.20:43
bert_ubuntu.com is my start page :P20:43
bert_how do you mean gaffs (don't know the word :S)20:43
troy_sbert_: Problem / flops / mistake20:44
thorwilno-noes, mistakes to be ashamed of20:44
bert_what kind of mistakes are there on the ubuntu site ?20:44
thorwiloh, an ubuntu doodle20:44
troy_sbert_: There would be a few if you were looking.20:45
thorwilnow google is the model ;)20:45
bert_well, there are some pretty useless things on the website20:45
bert_and some things should be more userfriendly20:45
troy_sbert_:  The main issue is probably that getting to the right presentation takes a good deal of time.  Last week it was an extremely poorly chocked up advertisement for Dell computers.20:45
bert_but I think it's a lot easier then other Open Source project site's20:45
troy_sbert_: "Userfriendly" -- I despise that term as much as the "usability" one.20:46
bert_how should I call it then ?20:46
troy_sbert_: Not what you call it, think about what it means.20:46
bert_it means being easy, structured, fast, etc.20:47
troy_sbert_: Is it a universal truth akin to the speed of light, or something completely rooted in the 'user'20:47
troy_sbert_: Really?20:47
troy_sbert_: Follow up question -- what is 'easy'?20:47
bert_yeah, that's something personal...20:47
troy_sbert_: TheMuso's idea of 'easy' is a far far cry from mine, and as it should be.20:47
bert_I see what you mean20:47
troy_sbert_: The golden rule of all art and design -- who is the viewer?20:47
troy_s(hell all of mathematics for that matter too ;) )20:47
bert_that's kind of like making a site20:48
bert_who's the public who you're making something for, and then make sure the site is build for that kind of people20:48
bert_(I'm a webdesigner so I like to look at things from that direction)20:49
troy_sbert_: Art and design, at its core, is language.20:49
troy_sbert_: That means you need to figure out a few basics -- WHO are you communicating to, WHAT you are communicating, and HOW you are going to do it.20:49
troy_sbert_: As with language, it shifts.20:50
bert_I see your points20:50
troy_sbert_: At one point in the pre-Renaissance era, people used to 'center punch' every item compositionally for example.20:50
bert_yeah that's something you have to keep in mind20:50
bert_that's quite hard too20:50
troy_sbert_: That was entirely swept away with the advent of what you accept today -- classical composition.20:50
bert_I always seem to make things too ugly and too difficult20:50
thorwilbert_: sheesh, why? :)20:51
bert_I make a lot of webapps which are only used by site admins, so I make them black with white text and admmin terms20:51
troy_sbert_: Ugly is relative.  If it is ugly to you, you should probably spend a little time figuring out exactly what is pretty for you.20:52
bert_but you can't do that on a normal site20:52
bert_white background with black text, that's my basic understanding of ugly20:52
bert_and then you also have strange color combinations but that's no problem20:52
thorwilin some cases no design is just the right design :)20:53
bert_(except for my first site off course :p )20:53
bert_but I have to go now20:53
bert_off to the shower :P20:53
bert_thanks for this interesting discussion20:53
bert_I learned A LOT !!!20:53
troy_sthorwil: LOL.  That's still a design choice.  The idea of 'no' implies the completely invisible other.20:53
thorwilbert_: get clean well! ;)20:53
bert_hope to see you again some time ;)20:53
troy_sbert_: Lol.  Sad.  That will pass.20:53
bert_byebye ;)20:54
thorwiltroy_s: if you take design to mean the process, then not.20:56
thorwilooh, they're using the word "intuitive" on the art list now20:58
thorwilwindow switching by sucking on nipples? ;)20:58
thorwil(and i have been told even that has to be learned to be done properly)20:59
troy_sthorwil: LOL20:59
troy_sthorwil: I would think that statement is correct judging from how many new mothers have trouble with it.21:00
troy_sthorwil: Amen.21:00
troy_sthorwil: The relativism of the world is a rather scary thing.21:01
thorwilrelatively, yes21:01
thorwiltime for me again ... cya!21:01
troy_sthorwil: It reminds me of that quote regarding Zen (think of it what you will) that goes something like "Before I studied Zen, men were men and mountains were mountains.  While I studied Zen, men were mountains and mountains were men.  When I completed my studies, men were men and mountains were mountains."21:02
troy_sthorwil: Toodles.21:02
salty-horsehi. I'm trying to track bug with the arrows of the Human theme, but I can't find the arrow image sources. can anyone help?21:27
troy_ssalty-horse: I believe the arrows would be in the Human icon set.23:03
salty-horseno file -iname-d "*arrow*"23:05
salty-horseand I found nothing in the theme definition files23:05
salty-horse(I don't know much about themes)23:05

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