=== asac_ is now known as asac
dholbachMOTU Q&A session in 17 minutes12:43
dholbachWelcome to another MOTU Q&A session!13:00
dholbachWho do we have here for the session today?13:00
dholbachCome on now... don't be shy :)13:01
* albert23 is trying to fix some bugs13:01
dholbachhey albert23 - excellent!13:01
dholbachwhat are you working on?13:02
albert23dholbach: gwget2 and gcal13:02
dholbachwhat are the bugs you're looking at?13:02
albert23dholbach: gcal fails to run on amd6413:02
albert23a rebuild would be sufficient, but the package is quite old13:02
dholbachso you're trying to update it at the same time?13:03
albert23would I need to update the standards version and dh_compat?13:03
* HighNo wonders is MOTU Q&A means MOTUs asking stuff or users asking MOTUs... 13:03
dholbachHighNo: whoever wants to ask questions about stuff related to MOTU, bring it on13:03
dholbachalbert23: if you update the standards-version, you say "this package complies with the specified version of the debian policy"13:04
albert23dholbach: yes indeed, I checked the summary list of changes for that13:04
dholbachfor packages we inherit from debian it doesn't make much sense, since it's a one line change 1) we have to merge manually every time we merge with debian, 2) doesn't have any visible impact13:05
dholbachalbert23: great you read it - the debian policy is the number one document to look things up in13:05
albert23So it would be ok to leave standards-version at 3.5.5?13:05
dholbachwe try to keep the diff between debian and ubuntu as small as possible13:05
albert23OK, and dh_compat=3, we can leave that as well?13:06
dholbacheven if lintian complains, it's not something worth doing the upload for13:06
dholbachyes, that specifies the debhelper compatibility level - if you have no reason to change it, leave it as it is13:06
dholbachwe are (or are going to be) in Feature Freeze soon, this means that no new upstream versions are excepted13:07
albert23dholbach: so then I just need to request the rebuild?13:07
HighNoI tried my first fix on a security related bug and of course it took hours to get things done but I finally manged to upload a debdiff to the bug. I only did it for my system which is feisty - are we supposed to get the fix done for all versions once we started on one version? And is there a nice Wiki describing step by step how doing security fixes (for which an upstream bugfix as been released)?13:07
dholbachbut if the new version you would use fixes a lot of bugs, you might want to think about requesting a feature freeze exception13:07
theseinfeldhow long until you get an answer for a FFE?13:07
dholbachalbert23: just add a debian/changelog entry for the rebuild, then submit it for sponsoring13:07
albert23dholbach: OK thanks13:08
dholbachtheseinfeld: pretty quickly - the 5 people that are on the team are all very good and very reactive13:08
dholbachis the document you might want to check up on13:08
dholbachHighNo: I suggest you get in touch with keescook and jdstrand - they are both the security masters and know what to check and which documents to read13:09
HighNodholbach: thanks.13:09
dholbachfrom the top of my head I don't know of any security related wiki pages or anything, but that's probably just because I always trusted them to do good work and never got into security stuff myself :)13:10
dholbachit's great you're all interested in the MOTU landscape - how did you find your journey so far? is everything going OK? things you'd like to see improved?13:11
HighNoI didn't do that before too. I was just hanging around in #ubuntu-motu and ScottK came up with it being something one could learn a lot from. So I gave it a try...13:11
* HighNo praises the MOTUs - #ubuntu-motu is hell of place for quick and good answers.13:11
dholbachnice, security is hugely important, so if you can learn something and give Kees and Jamie a hand, that's awesome13:11
dholbachwhat about the documentation? is it OK? do you have the feeling you're all progressing?13:12
HighNoThey helped me getting my package (not being packaged before) into hardy even 5 days before FF.13:12
theseinfeldHighNo you are lucky :)13:12
HighNodholbach: packaging docs were kind of confusing13:12
dholbachFeature Freeze is a very busy time13:13
dholbachHighNo: do you have an example or anything specific you'd like to see change?13:13
HighNodholbach: it was the pure amount of information and not having a nice step-by-step thing.13:14
HighNodholbach: if there is a packaging guide hello-world thing, I didn't find it, if there is none - we need it :-)13:14
dholbachhttp://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/GettingStarted links to it13:14
dholbachit's http://wiki.ubuntu.com/PackagingGuide13:15
* albert23 thinks the packaging guide is great13:15
dholbachif that's not obvious enough, we need to fix it13:15
dholbachhey walmis13:15
dholbachalbert23: I'm glad you say that13:15
bardyrhow much programming/scripting knowledge do you need to create perfect debs?13:15
dholbachI spent quite a lot of time merging millions of wiki pages into it :)13:15
dholbachbardyr: good question :)13:16
HighNodholbach: as I said, there was too much info on it. I love check lists that have a linked 'why' thing on it. like this one: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UpstreamGuide  (not surprisingly I did the list part :-)13:16
theseinfelddefine perfect debs bardyr?13:16
dholbachbardyr: check out https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/FAQ#head-1459f4f9811bc9dde6cae1af4c36c954ba1cad3913:16
dholbachif you start learning modifying packages, creating new packages from scratch is just a step away13:16
dholbachHighNo: like http://wiki.ubuntu.com/PackagingGuide/HandsOn ?13:17
bardyrdholbach, thanks :)13:17
HighNodholbach: the problem is - I started by packaging a new one. qute adventurous :-)13:17
dholbachyes it is, I learned a lot from looking at other packages and trying to fix them first13:17
HighNodholbach: Doh! I didn't read that one!13:17
theseinfelddholbach can you add about the debian files like .dirs, .install, .files something in the howto?13:18
HighNodholbach: it only took me 14 uploads to get my package advocated :-) I am sure some MOTUs have me on their ignore list (or were seriously thinking about it)13:18
theseinfelddholbach I know that people can find the info in some man pages or google, but to save them from the trouble...and yes, I know I could add them myself...but...heck I love delegating :))13:18
dholbachtheseinfeld: added to my todo list13:19
dholbachI will put that Improving Docs todo list on the wiki somewhere soon13:19
dholbachHighNo: not really13:19
dholbachthere's so much stuff to bear in mind13:19
theseinfeldalso a section about watch13:20
theseinfeldI don't remember seeing it in the howto's...ok...it is there now...I am getting old :))13:20
dholbachif you come across a really good package and you can get others to agree on that, we should add it to http://wiki.ubuntu.com/PackagingGuide/Lists/ReferencePackages13:21
dholbachany more questions?13:22
HighNoI have to go now but will read the transscript later on. One last thing - even though it was a lot of work I had a great time creating the package and talking to all the geeks in #ubuntu-motu.13:22
albert23dholbach: what is the exact requirement for build twice on a row?13:22
albert23Does it also apply to source build after binary build?13:23
dholbachalbert23: are you referring to building a package two times (two different compile options for example)13:23
albert23dholbach: I have a package using automake. It builds and runs fine, but doing debuild -S after a binary build fails13:24
dholbachahh ok13:24
albert23The changes from automake cannot be represented in the diff13:24
dholbachthat's probably because the clean target does not do it's job alright13:24
dholbachin the pristine tarball from upstream, does    make distcheck    work?13:25
dholbachthat's usually a good way to test it13:25
albert23dholbach: I haven't tried that13:25
dholbachif that fails, it's probably an upstream bug13:25
albert23dholbach: This is one example: dpkg-source: cannot represent change to intltool-merge.in:13:26
dholbachis the version number and the source directory name correct?13:26
dholbachthat can be a problem too13:26
albert23yes, they seem to be ok13:27
=== thekorn_ is now known as thekorn
dholbach<package> (<upstreamversion>-<revision>)...    in debian/changelog13:27
dholbach<package>-<upstreamversion>   <- as source directory name13:27
dholbachoh and also the .orig.tar.gz13:27
dholbachthe versioning should be the problem in this case13:28
dholbachintltool-merge.in is just a text file and the change should be easily representable in the diff13:28
* warp10 joins the classroom...13:28
dholbachhey warp1013:28
dholbachgood to have you13:28
warp10hi dholbach and all... and sorry for coming so late13:29
albert23dholbach: it says new version is symlink,  old version is something else13:29
albert23But I guess this is indeed a problem and I need to fix it13:29
dholbachalbert23: try to make it non-symlinks and stick to the pattern I mentioned above13:30
theseinfelddholbach, when you use launchpad PPA and REVU and you build in PPA, should you have a convention there as well?13:30
theseinfelddholbach I am asking you this because people might use PPA and later when they get the packages from REVU/distro might get into trouble with superseeding?13:30
dholbachtheseinfeld: I'm sorry, but I have to admit that we don't have a good review process around PPAs yet13:30
dholbachyes, getting the versioning in PPA right is critically important13:31
theseinfelddholbach there is no review process there :) but the building itself, nevertheless, there are people using PPAs as repositories13:31
dholbach1.2.3-4ubuntu5~ppa6 for example would be OK13:31
theseinfeldlike KDE4 people13:31
theseinfeldand then, when it gets into the upstream you find yourself in a mess13:31
dholbachdoes everybody know about the ~ operator in versions?13:31
theseinfeldand still...13:32
theseinfeldlets say 0ubuntu1~hardy1~svn123~ppa12313:32
theseinfeldI am thinking that it might be good to have it mentioned somewhere?13:32
theseinfeldfor ethernity :)13:33
dholbachit is mentioned in http://help.launchpad.net/PPAQuickStart13:33
dholbachwhich is THE ppa howto13:33
dholbachif you think there should be more capital letters, I can pass this on .)13:34
* dholbach needs a new keyboard, my shift key keeps on popping out13:35
* theseinfeld too...13:35
theseinfeldOk, you are right, it was there :)13:35
* theseinfeld recommends people to use the PPA for builds and publishing...13:36
dholbachany other questions? things we could improve? wacky ideas about initiatives we should start?13:36
warp10dholbach: I have a question13:36
dholbachwarp10: shoot13:36
warp10I made it on -motu today, but didn't get an answer,13:36
theseinfelddholbach can we also suggest improvements for the revu?13:36
warp10I made a debdiff for a bug I worked on. This debdiff has been rejected by a sponsor because it FTFBS. I pushed it on my PPA and it builds fine there. Do you think this is enough to say that my debdiff works and can resubscribe u-u-s?13:36
dholbachtheseinfeld: I'm not a REVU hacker or admin, but I can pass it on13:37
dholbachwarp10: sure, best to ask the sponsor what the problem was he mentioned13:37
dholbachwarp10: it could be that it just fails in a certain scenario or something13:37
warp10dholbach: the sponsor attached its log to the bug report. It is bug #19084513:38
theseinfelddholbach it will be nice that you can login from the package page (if it sees that you are not in, instead of displaying the info that you should go in the main, it could just add the form so user can login) AND13:38
warp10well, https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/seamonkey/+bug/19084513:38
* dholbach takes a look13:38
theseinfelddholbach revu after you submit a description, the package URL is not shown...(it goes as http push or something so it is not in the link...)13:39
dholbachtheseinfeld: I think there's a revu product in launchpad, maybe you can file a bug there?13:39
dholbachtheseinfeld: the suggestions sound good though13:39
dholbachwarp10: try to point Luke to the ppa build log13:40
warp10dholbach: I will do. Probably TheMuso will be online this evening or tonight13:40
dholbachhe's in .au13:40
warp10Is it correct to say that if a package builds in a PPA, it will surely build with buildd?13:41
dholbachit should, afaik the buildds are nearly identical13:41
albert23warp10: it might be the broken dpkg earlier this week...13:41
dholbachminus some scripts that run on the ubuntu buildds13:42
dholbachCan't locate POSIX.pm in @INC     is weird13:42
warp10albert23: ah, good pointer... maybe that's the problem.13:42
dholbachwarp10: also you can ask asac - he's the mozilla king13:42
albert23the error message refers to Dpkg/ErrorHandling.pm13:42
warp10indeed, it shows Dpkg/ErrorHandling.pm13:42
dholbachgood point13:43
warp10dholbach: he mentored me for that debdiff :)13:43
dholbachI see we have some people with detective skills here :)13:43
dholbachrock and roll - good work everybody :)13:44
* warp10 loves PPA13:44
theseinfelddholbach bug #192120 for revu13:44
dholbachyeah, it's nice13:44
dholbachthanks theseinfeld13:44
* theseinfeld loves PPA too...13:44
dholbachtheseinfeld, warp10: I passed on the praise :)13:46
* theseinfeld grins...13:46
theseinfeldcheck bug #19189213:46
theseinfeldin soyuz13:46
dholbachoh, speaking about PPA and stuff13:46
theseinfeldIt killed my brain 3 days ago13:46
dholbachI hope you all come to Ubuntu Developer Week next week13:47
* theseinfeld nods at dholbach13:47
KEBAare the lessons easy enaugh to unerstand for beginners, who use ubuntu since tweo month?13:47
dholbachwe have a bunch of good sessions coming up, one of them about PPAs13:47
* theseinfeld wishes to come...but too busy at work...13:47
warp10dholbach: you can guess on it! I'm looking forward for UDW13:47
dholbachKEBA: in this session right now we're asking and answering questions about the MOTU project13:47
dholbachwarp10: rock on13:47
dholbachtheseinfeld: at least they'll be logged13:48
* theseinfeld nods13:48
dholbachany session you would have liked to see which is not on the schedule?13:48
* dholbach tried to get a diverse set of speakers13:49
warp10dholbach: a session about merges and sync would be nice13:50
dholbachif you guys are happy, I'm happy too13:50
jcastroI have a debdiff question: Let's say I have a .patch from someone to fix a bug; which is more appropriate, to put a patch in debian/patches, or just generate a debdiff?13:50
warp10maybe someone will speak about within another session13:50
dholbachjames_w will cover some of it in his debian session, and I'll try to do some of it in the motu processes one13:50
dholbachwarp10: but yeah, important and good point13:50
* warp10 loves merges and syncs too :)13:51
dholbachjcastro: if the package uses a patch system like dpatch of cdbs' simple-patchsys, you stick the patch into debian/patches and then generate the debdiff13:51
dholbachjcastro: if it doesn't use a patch system it's usually not worth introducing a new dependency to use one13:51
dholbachI think there's a script called what-patch in ubuntu-dev-tools which finds out for you which system is used13:52
jcastroah, ok, I will try that13:52
dholbachafaik Kees wrote it13:52
jcastroyes, you are correct, what-patch works, it's in ubuntu-dev-tools13:53
dholbachubuntu-dev-tools is good stuff13:53
jcastroyeah I just am looking at it -- manpages for me this morning!13:54
dholbachhehe :)13:54
dholbachare there any other questions?13:54
dholbachin addition to UDW, I need to plug https://wiki.ubuntu.com/5-A-Day :)13:55
warp10cool :)13:55
albert23Will the sponsors still like us if we all do that :-)13:55
dholbachyeah, the best thing since sliced bread13:55
dholbachwe will announce it during UDW, but it'd be great to have some traction before that :)13:56
warp10I'll give a try to it, sounds pretty funny! :-)13:57
dholbachrock and roll13:57
dholbachif there are no more questions, let's close the session for today - my dog needs walking and the sun is shining right now :)13:58
dholbachand ask all your questions in #ubuntu-motu13:58
albert23Many thanks dholbach!13:58
warp10thanks dholbach!13:58
dholbachthanks go to YOU guys13:58
dholbachyou rock :)13:58
dholbachsee you around13:58
AlgorithmicContrCould someone help me set up an SSH server?19:54
astabenoAlgorithmicContr: This is not a support channel, try #ubuntu for support20:07
billybobo231wasn't there a class on packaging today?  I kept the IRC window logging all day to later read what I missed, and there really isn't anything here...23:54
Megaqwertybillybobo231: yes, there was. I'll pastebin my logs for you if you'd like.23:55
Megaqwertybillybobo231: http://pastebin.ca/90572923:56
billybobo231:) thanks Mega!23:56
MegaqwertyYou're welcome!23:57
billybobo231whoa thats early AM!  i started my logging after that happened i guess!23:59
Megaqwertybillybobo231: I'm PST23:59

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