[03:56] <asdfji> hello
[12:43] <dholbach> MOTU Q&A session in 17 minutes
[13:00] <dholbach> Welcome to another MOTU Q&A session!
[13:00] <dholbach> Who do we have here for the session today?
[13:01] <dholbach> Come on now... don't be shy :)
[13:01]  * albert23 is trying to fix some bugs
[13:01] <dholbach> hey albert23 - excellent!
[13:02] <dholbach> what are you working on?
[13:02] <albert23> dholbach: gwget2 and gcal
[13:02] <dholbach> what are the bugs you're looking at?
[13:02] <albert23> dholbach: gcal fails to run on amd64
[13:02] <albert23> a rebuild would be sufficient, but the package is quite old
[13:03] <dholbach> so you're trying to update it at the same time?
[13:03] <albert23> would I need to update the standards version and dh_compat?
[13:03]  * HighNo wonders is MOTU Q&A means MOTUs asking stuff or users asking MOTUs... 
[13:03] <dholbach> HighNo: whoever wants to ask questions about stuff related to MOTU, bring it on
[13:04] <dholbach> albert23: if you update the standards-version, you say "this package complies with the specified version of the debian policy"
[13:04] <albert23> dholbach: yes indeed, I checked the summary list of changes for that
[13:05] <dholbach> for packages we inherit from debian it doesn't make much sense, since it's a one line change 1) we have to merge manually every time we merge with debian, 2) doesn't have any visible impact
[13:05] <dholbach> albert23: great you read it - the debian policy is the number one document to look things up in
[13:05] <albert23> So it would be ok to leave standards-version at 3.5.5?
[13:05] <dholbach> we try to keep the diff between debian and ubuntu as small as possible
[13:05] <dholbach> absolutely
[13:06] <albert23> OK, and dh_compat=3, we can leave that as well?
[13:06] <dholbach> even if lintian complains, it's not something worth doing the upload for
[13:06] <dholbach> yes, that specifies the debhelper compatibility level - if you have no reason to change it, leave it as it is
[13:07] <dholbach> we are (or are going to be) in Feature Freeze soon, this means that no new upstream versions are excepted
[13:07] <albert23> dholbach: so then I just need to request the rebuild?
[13:07] <HighNo> I tried my first fix on a security related bug and of course it took hours to get things done but I finally manged to upload a debdiff to the bug. I only did it for my system which is feisty - are we supposed to get the fix done for all versions once we started on one version? And is there a nice Wiki describing step by step how doing security fixes (for which an upstream bugfix as been released)?
[13:07] <dholbach> but if the new version you would use fixes a lot of bugs, you might want to think about requesting a feature freeze exception
[13:07] <theseinfeld> how long until you get an answer for a FFE?
[13:07] <dholbach> albert23: just add a debian/changelog entry for the rebuild, then submit it for sponsoring
[13:08] <albert23> dholbach: OK thanks
[13:08] <dholbach> theseinfeld: pretty quickly - the 5 people that are on the team are all very good and very reactive
[13:08] <dholbach> http://wiki.ubuntu.com/FreezeExceptionProcess
[13:08] <theseinfeld> thanks
[13:08] <dholbach> is the document you might want to check up on
[13:09] <dholbach> HighNo: I suggest you get in touch with keescook and jdstrand - they are both the security masters and know what to check and which documents to read
[13:09] <HighNo> dholbach: thanks.
[13:10] <dholbach> from the top of my head I don't know of any security related wiki pages or anything, but that's probably just because I always trusted them to do good work and never got into security stuff myself :)
[13:11] <dholbach> it's great you're all interested in the MOTU landscape - how did you find your journey so far? is everything going OK? things you'd like to see improved?
[13:11] <HighNo> I didn't do that before too. I was just hanging around in #ubuntu-motu and ScottK came up with it being something one could learn a lot from. So I gave it a try...
[13:11]  * HighNo praises the MOTUs - #ubuntu-motu is hell of place for quick and good answers.
[13:11] <dholbach> nice, security is hugely important, so if you can learn something and give Kees and Jamie a hand, that's awesome
[13:12] <dholbach> what about the documentation? is it OK? do you have the feeling you're all progressing?
[13:12] <HighNo> They helped me getting my package (not being packaged before) into hardy even 5 days before FF.
[13:12] <theseinfeld> HighNo you are lucky :)
[13:12] <HighNo> dholbach: packaging docs were kind of confusing
[13:13] <dholbach> Feature Freeze is a very busy time
[13:13] <dholbach> HighNo: do you have an example or anything specific you'd like to see change?
[13:14] <HighNo> dholbach: it was the pure amount of information and not having a nice step-by-step thing.
[13:14] <HighNo> dholbach: if there is a packaging guide hello-world thing, I didn't find it, if there is none - we need it :-)
[13:14] <dholbach> http://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/GettingStarted links to it
[13:15] <dholbach> it's http://wiki.ubuntu.com/PackagingGuide
[13:15]  * albert23 thinks the packaging guide is great
[13:15] <dholbach> if that's not obvious enough, we need to fix it
[13:15] <dholbach> hey walmis
[13:15] <dholbach> albert23: I'm glad you say that
[13:15] <bardyr> how much programming/scripting knowledge do you need to create perfect debs?
[13:15] <dholbach> I spent quite a lot of time merging millions of wiki pages into it :)
[13:16] <dholbach> bardyr: good question :)
[13:16] <HighNo> dholbach: as I said, there was too much info on it. I love check lists that have a linked 'why' thing on it. like this one: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UpstreamGuide  (not surprisingly I did the list part :-)
[13:16] <theseinfeld> define perfect debs bardyr?
[13:16] <dholbach> bardyr: check out https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/FAQ#head-1459f4f9811bc9dde6cae1af4c36c954ba1cad39
[13:16] <theseinfeld> :D
[13:16] <dholbach> if you start learning modifying packages, creating new packages from scratch is just a step away
[13:17] <dholbach> HighNo: like http://wiki.ubuntu.com/PackagingGuide/HandsOn ?
[13:17] <bardyr> dholbach, thanks :)
[13:17] <HighNo> dholbach: the problem is - I started by packaging a new one. qute adventurous :-)
[13:17] <dholbach> yes it is, I learned a lot from looking at other packages and trying to fix them first
[13:17] <HighNo> dholbach: Doh! I didn't read that one!
[13:18] <theseinfeld> dholbach can you add about the debian files like .dirs, .install, .files something in the howto?
[13:18] <HighNo> dholbach: it only took me 14 uploads to get my package advocated :-) I am sure some MOTUs have me on their ignore list (or were seriously thinking about it)
[13:18] <theseinfeld> dholbach I know that people can find the info in some man pages or google, but to save them from the trouble...and yes, I know I could add them myself...but...heck I love delegating :))
[13:19] <dholbach> theseinfeld: added to my todo list
[13:19] <dholbach> I will put that Improving Docs todo list on the wiki somewhere soon
[13:19] <dholbach> HighNo: not really
[13:19] <dholbach> there's so much stuff to bear in mind
[13:20] <theseinfeld> also a section about watch
[13:20] <dholbach> http://wiki.ubuntu.com/PackagingGuide/Recipes/DebianWatch
[13:20] <theseinfeld> I don't remember seeing it in the howto's...ok...it is there now...I am getting old :))
[13:21] <dholbach> if you come across a really good package and you can get others to agree on that, we should add it to http://wiki.ubuntu.com/PackagingGuide/Lists/ReferencePackages
[13:22] <dholbach> any more questions?
[13:22] <HighNo> I have to go now but will read the transscript later on. One last thing - even though it was a lot of work I had a great time creating the package and talking to all the geeks in #ubuntu-motu.
[13:22] <albert23> dholbach: what is the exact requirement for build twice on a row?
[13:23] <albert23> Does it also apply to source build after binary build?
[13:23] <dholbach> albert23: are you referring to building a package two times (two different compile options for example)
[13:24] <albert23> dholbach: I have a package using automake. It builds and runs fine, but doing debuild -S after a binary build fails
[13:24] <dholbach> ahh ok
[13:24] <albert23> The changes from automake cannot be represented in the diff
[13:24] <dholbach> that's probably because the clean target does not do it's job alright
[13:25] <dholbach> in the pristine tarball from upstream, does    make distcheck    work?
[13:25] <dholbach> that's usually a good way to test it
[13:25] <albert23> dholbach: I haven't tried that
[13:25] <dholbach> if that fails, it's probably an upstream bug
[13:26] <albert23> dholbach: This is one example: dpkg-source: cannot represent change to intltool-merge.in:
[13:26] <dholbach> is the version number and the source directory name correct?
[13:26] <dholbach> that can be a problem too
[13:27] <albert23> yes, they seem to be ok
 (<upstreamversion>-<revision>)...    in debian/changelog
   <- as source directory name
[13:27] <dholbach> oh and also the .orig.tar.gz
.orig.tar.gz
[13:28] <dholbach> the versioning should be the problem in this case
[13:28] <dholbach> intltool-merge.in is just a text file and the change should be easily representable in the diff
[13:28]  * warp10 joins the classroom...
[13:28] <dholbach> hey warp10
[13:28] <dholbach> good to have you
[13:29] <warp10> hi dholbach and all... and sorry for coming so late
[13:29] <albert23> dholbach: it says new version is symlink,  old version is something else
[13:29] <albert23> But I guess this is indeed a problem and I need to fix it
[13:30] <dholbach> albert23: try to make it non-symlinks and stick to the pattern I mentioned above
[13:30] <theseinfeld> dholbach, when you use launchpad PPA and REVU and you build in PPA, should you have a convention there as well?
[13:30] <theseinfeld> dholbach I am asking you this because people might use PPA and later when they get the packages from REVU/distro might get into trouble with superseeding?
[13:30] <dholbach> theseinfeld: I'm sorry, but I have to admit that we don't have a good review process around PPAs yet
[13:31] <dholbach> yes, getting the versioning in PPA right is critically important
[13:31] <theseinfeld> dholbach there is no review process there :) but the building itself, nevertheless, there are people using PPAs as repositories
[13:31] <dholbach> 1.2.3-4ubuntu5~ppa6 for example would be OK
[13:31] <theseinfeld> like KDE4 people
[13:31] <theseinfeld> and then, when it gets into the upstream you find yourself in a mess
[13:31] <dholbach> does everybody know about the ~ operator in versions?
[13:31] <theseinfeld> yes
[13:32] <theseinfeld> and still...
[13:32] <theseinfeld> lets say 0ubuntu1~hardy1~svn123~ppa123
[13:32] <dholbach> still=
[13:32] <dholbach> still?
[13:32] <theseinfeld> I am thinking that it might be good to have it mentioned somewhere?
[13:33] <theseinfeld> for ethernity :)
[13:33] <theseinfeld> s/ethernity/eternity/
[13:33] <dholbach> it is mentioned in http://help.launchpad.net/PPAQuickStart
[13:33] <dholbach> which is THE ppa howto
[13:34] <dholbach> if you think there should be more capital letters, I can pass this on .)
[13:34] <theseinfeld> checing
[13:34] <dholbach> "Versioning:"
[13:34] <theseinfeld> s/checing/checking/
[13:35]  * dholbach needs a new keyboard, my shift key keeps on popping out
[13:35]  * theseinfeld too...
[13:35] <theseinfeld> Ok, you are right, it was there :)
[13:36]  * theseinfeld recommends people to use the PPA for builds and publishing...
[13:36] <dholbach> any other questions? things we could improve? wacky ideas about initiatives we should start?
[13:36] <warp10> dholbach: I have a question
[13:36] <dholbach> warp10: shoot
[13:36] <warp10> I made it on -motu today, but didn't get an answer,
[13:36] <theseinfeld> dholbach can we also suggest improvements for the revu?
[13:36] <warp10> I made a debdiff for a bug I worked on. This debdiff has been rejected by a sponsor because it FTFBS. I pushed it on my PPA and it builds fine there. Do you think this is enough to say that my debdiff works and can resubscribe u-u-s?
[13:37] <dholbach> theseinfeld: I'm not a REVU hacker or admin, but I can pass it on
[13:37] <dholbach> warp10: sure, best to ask the sponsor what the problem was he mentioned
[13:37] <dholbach> warp10: it could be that it just fails in a certain scenario or something
[13:38] <warp10> dholbach: the sponsor attached its log to the bug report. It is bug #190845
[13:38] <theseinfeld> dholbach it will be nice that you can login from the package page (if it sees that you are not in, instead of displaying the info that you should go in the main, it could just add the form so user can login) AND
[13:38] <warp10> well, https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/seamonkey/+bug/190845
[13:38]  * dholbach takes a look
[13:39] <theseinfeld> dholbach revu after you submit a description, the package URL is not shown...(it goes as http push or something so it is not in the link...)
[13:39] <dholbach> theseinfeld: I think there's a revu product in launchpad, maybe you can file a bug there?
[13:39] <dholbach> theseinfeld: the suggestions sound good though
[13:40] <dholbach> warp10: try to point Luke to the ppa build log
[13:40] <warp10> dholbach: I will do. Probably TheMuso will be online this evening or tonight
[13:40] <dholbach> he's in .au
[13:41] <warp10> Is it correct to say that if a package builds in a PPA, it will surely build with buildd?
[13:41] <dholbach> it should, afaik the buildds are nearly identical
[13:41] <albert23> warp10: it might be the broken dpkg earlier this week...
[13:42] <dholbach> minus some scripts that run on the ubuntu buildds
[13:42] <dholbach> Can't locate POSIX.pm in @INC     is weird
[13:42] <warp10> albert23: ah, good pointer... maybe that's the problem.
[13:42] <dholbach> warp10: also you can ask asac - he's the mozilla king
[13:42] <albert23> the error message refers to Dpkg/ErrorHandling.pm
[13:42] <warp10> indeed, it shows Dpkg/ErrorHandling.pm
[13:43] <dholbach> ahh!
[13:43] <dholbach> good point
[13:43] <warp10> dholbach: he mentored me for that debdiff :)
[13:43] <dholbach> I see we have some people with detective skills here :)
[13:44] <dholbach> rock and roll - good work everybody :)
[13:44]  * warp10 loves PPA
[13:44] <theseinfeld> dholbach bug #192120 for revu
[13:44] <dholbach> yeah, it's nice
[13:44] <dholbach> thanks theseinfeld
[13:44]  * theseinfeld loves PPA too...
[13:46] <dholbach> theseinfeld, warp10: I passed on the praise :)
[13:46]  * theseinfeld grins...
[13:46] <dholbach> :-)
[13:46] <theseinfeld> check bug #191892
[13:46] <warp10> :D
[13:46] <theseinfeld> in soyuz
[13:46] <dholbach> oh, speaking about PPA and stuff
[13:46] <theseinfeld> It killed my brain 3 days ago
[13:47] <dholbach> I hope you all come to Ubuntu Developer Week next week
[13:47]  * theseinfeld nods at dholbach
[13:47] <KEBA> are the lessons easy enaugh to unerstand for beginners, who use ubuntu since tweo month?
[13:47] <dholbach> we have a bunch of good sessions coming up, one of them about PPAs
[13:47]  * theseinfeld wishes to come...but too busy at work...
[13:47] <warp10> dholbach: you can guess on it! I'm looking forward for UDW
[13:47] <dholbach> KEBA: in this session right now we're asking and answering questions about the MOTU project
[13:47] <dholbach> warp10: rock on
[13:48] <dholbach> theseinfeld: at least they'll be logged
[13:48]  * theseinfeld nods
[13:48] <dholbach> any session you would have liked to see which is not on the schedule?
[13:49]  * dholbach tried to get a diverse set of speakers
[13:50] <warp10> dholbach: a session about merges and sync would be nice
[13:50] <dholbach> if you guys are happy, I'm happy too
[13:50] <jcastro> I have a debdiff question: Let's say I have a .patch from someone to fix a bug; which is more appropriate, to put a patch in debian/patches, or just generate a debdiff?
[13:50] <warp10> maybe someone will speak about within another session
[13:50] <dholbach> james_w will cover some of it in his debian session, and I'll try to do some of it in the motu processes one
[13:50] <dholbach> warp10: but yeah, important and good point
[13:51]  * warp10 loves merges and syncs too :)
[13:51] <dholbach> jcastro: if the package uses a patch system like dpatch of cdbs' simple-patchsys, you stick the patch into debian/patches and then generate the debdiff
[13:51] <jcastro> ok
[13:51] <dholbach> jcastro: if it doesn't use a patch system it's usually not worth introducing a new dependency to use one
[13:52] <dholbach> I think there's a script called what-patch in ubuntu-dev-tools which finds out for you which system is used
[13:52] <jcastro> ah, ok, I will try that
[13:52] <dholbach> afaik Kees wrote it
[13:53] <jcastro> yes, you are correct, what-patch works, it's in ubuntu-dev-tools
[13:53] <dholbach> nice
[13:53] <dholbach> ubuntu-dev-tools is good stuff
[13:54] <jcastro> yeah I just am looking at it -- manpages for me this morning!
[13:54] <dholbach> hehe :)
[13:54] <dholbach> are there any other questions?
[13:55] <dholbach> in addition to UDW, I need to plug https://wiki.ubuntu.com/5-A-Day :)
[13:55] <warp10> cool :)
[13:55] <albert23> Will the sponsors still like us if we all do that :-)
[13:55] <dholbach> yeah, the best thing since sliced bread
[13:56] <dholbach> we will announce it during UDW, but it'd be great to have some traction before that :)
[13:57] <warp10> I'll give a try to it, sounds pretty funny! :-)
[13:57] <dholbach> rock and roll
[13:58] <dholbach> if there are no more questions, let's close the session for today - my dog needs walking and the sun is shining right now :)
[13:58] <dholbach> and ask all your questions in #ubuntu-motu
[13:58] <albert23> Many thanks dholbach!
[13:58] <warp10> thanks dholbach!
[13:58] <jcastro> thanks!
[13:58] <dholbach> thanks go to YOU guys
[13:58] <dholbach> you rock :)
[13:58] <dholbach> see you around
[17:34] <andy2> exit
[19:54] <AlgorithmicContr> Could someone help me set up an SSH server?
[20:07] <astabeno> AlgorithmicContr: This is not a support channel, try #ubuntu for support
[23:54] <billybobo231> wasn't there a class on packaging today?  I kept the IRC window logging all day to later read what I missed, and there really isn't anything here...
[23:55] <Megaqwerty> billybobo231: yes, there was. I'll pastebin my logs for you if you'd like.
[23:55] <billybobo231> please
[23:56] <Megaqwerty> billybobo231: http://pastebin.ca/905729
[23:56] <billybobo231> :) thanks Mega!
[23:57] <Megaqwerty> You're welcome!
[23:59] <billybobo231> whoa thats early AM!  i started my logging after that happened i guess!
[23:59] <Megaqwerty> billybobo231: I'm PST