=== tiborio_ is now known as tiborio
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o0splitpaw0oVorian: suppie04:32
bb74_hallo, schon jemand da?08:35
dholbachbb74_: most people speak english in here :)08:35
dholbachbb74_: and yes, there are 119 people around :)08:35
bb74_ok, now i've take a look at the time-table and will be back at 16h0008:37
dholbach16:00 UTC :)08:38
luisbg_dholbach, what time is UTC right now?08:38
dholbachdaniel@lovegood:~$ date; date -u08:38
dholbachDi 19. Feb 09:38:37 CET 200808:38
dholbachDi 19. Feb 08:38:37 UTC 200808:38
dholbach"date -u" is your friend :-)08:38
bb74_ok, 17h00 cet08:39
* luisbg_ has just learned a new terminal trick08:39
luisbg_yeah, thanks08:39
dholbachROCK ON! :-)08:39
luisbg_derivative session at 19h00 utc, 20h00 my local time08:39
dholbachI look forward to it08:39
tamratjust an idea: wouldn't it be good to prepare a question section in the wiki where people can already put their questions for each session, just in case they are not able to come - and might be good for the "speakers" to prepare their thing08:40
dholbachtamrat: if you figure out a good place to put them that should be fine - the thing is: it'd take some time to announce that change also I had so many questions in the sessions that I could barely answer them all08:42
luisbg_tamrat, if wiki questions had more priority or viceversa... it would be unfair08:51
luisbg_dholbach, in the sessions... how are the questions handled? who selects which one is replied and who has to answer it?08:52
dholbachluisbg_: carry them over from #-chat and reply to them one by one08:54
Unksiluisbg_: the practises used are explained well here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDeveloperWeek09:03
Unksibe sure to have a look at there, you will also find the programme from there :)09:03
luisbg_Unksi, thanks09:04
luisbg_Unksi, need to know that for this evening09:05
Unksiyoure welcome09:05
phoenix24Hi folks!09:51
KEBAhey, i missed this romm yesterfday :(, are the channels logged anywhere?13:11
faulkes-yes, see the UDW wiki page13:11
KEBAim too silly, i cannot find, do u mean thsi page: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDeveloperWeek/JoiningIn13:15
faulkes-go to the root of that page13:17
faulkes-each of the talks which has been presented have a link which you can click, iirc13:18
faulkes-click on any of the links for the 18th13:18
KEBAsome things are to easy for me13:21
txwikingerschedule @London13:46
txwikinger!schedule @London13:46
ubotuUbuntu releases a new version every 6 months. Each version is supported for 18 months to 5 years. More info at http://www.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/releases & http://wiki.ubuntu.com/TimeBasedReleases13:47
ubotuSorry, I don't know anything about now - try searching on http://ubotu.ubuntu-nl.org/factoids.cgi14:08
ubotuCurrent time in Etc/UTC: February 19 2008, 14:09:18 - Next meeting: TriLoCo-Midwest in 10 hours 50 minutes14:09
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Solarionmorning dholbach15:05
Tm_Tg'day kids15:07
dholbachhey guys :)15:07
sergevnonly 51 minutes left :D15:09
Solariontime, I think, for more coffee.15:09
jjessethere's always time for more coffee15:09
Solarionno, I can think of cases where the time is insufficient for more coffee.15:10
Solarionfor instance, if you're on a medevac team....15:10
=== juliank0 is now known as juliank
Solarion"Can't intubate the guy now; need more coffee!"15:10
mruizping dholbach15:12
dholbachhi mruiz15:12
joshaidanI could use some more coffee15:14
Tm_Tdholbach: moi15:15
sergevn*slurp* aah15:15
jjesselooks like someone got there coffee15:19
sergevnjjesse: cup's empty already, refill NOW!15:23
sergevnjjesse: ;)15:23
* jjesse pours coffee for sergevn15:25
* jjesse pours coffee for sergevn15:25
jjessethere two cups should keep you busy15:25
dholbachwe have some REALLY excited people here :)15:26
sergevn*sergevn's eyes popping out15:26
dholbachI hope you all managed to grab a comfy seat and have your favourite drink ready15:56
dholbachhttps://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDeveloperWeek has the schedule for today15:56
Tm_Tdholbach: no and no but better go ahead anyway ;)15:56
dholbachand https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDeveloperWeek/Rules explains how we deal with everything in this channel15:56
dholbachplease keep all the chatter out of this channel, and talk in #ubuntu-classroom-chat15:57
dholbachif you have questions, ask them in #ubuntu-classroom-chat and prefix them with QUESTION: so they're easier to spot15:57
dholbachin our first session today, we have Søren Hansen, our Virtualisation king, long-time MOTU and a good friend of mine15:58
* soren hugs dholbach 15:58
dholbachplease treat him gently, we still need him :)15:58
* dholbach hugs soren15:58
dholbachwe still have two minutes, so lean back and enjoy the show15:58
sorenPlease keep the questions rolling in. I haven't prepared much, so any questions are appreciated.15:59
sorenHere goes..16:00
sorenHi, and welcome to the first UDW talk for the day. My name is Soren Hansen, and I'll be your host for this session whose topic is virtualisation.16:00
sorenOk, first bit of generalitites about virtualisation..16:00
sorenVirtualisation is a bit of a broad topic.16:01
sorenThere are various types of virtualisation techniques, each with the own pros and cons.16:01
sorenCommon for them all is that they enable you to split up one physical machine into what seems like many machines.16:01
sorenKVM, which we have chosen as our preferred free virtualisation technology, does this by providing a complete virtualised machine to a socalled guest operating system.16:02
sorenIn a perfect world, the guest os (the operating system running inside the virtual machine) will not be able to (or at least need to be able to) tell that it's running inside a virtual machine.16:03
sorenFrom its perspective, it's running in a regular PC.16:03
sorenOther approaches are used by other virtualisation solutions..16:04
sorenXen for instance replaces the regular linux kernel with a so-called hypervisor.16:04
sorenOn top of that you can run specialised linux kernels.16:05
sorenThere's also so-called containers.16:05
sorenThey usually use the same running kernel, but keeps both filesystem and process space separate from the individual "virtual machines".16:06
sorenThere are a few others, but these are the most interesting ones.16:06
sorenI'm ready for questions any time.16:06
mzungu<yann2> QUESTION (for later, when it's time): can KVM handle irq generated by guests on may cores (compatibility with irqbalance), or do all the irqs have to be done by the first core?16:07
sorenI'm not entirely sure I understand the question.16:07
sorenAre we talking virtual or physical cores?16:08
yann2can I reply here? :)16:08
yann2yeah, physical cores, on the host16:08
soren(I BTW prefer more general, high-level questions in this session. I'd like to have a bit of time to research these very technical questions before I just blurt out an answer.)16:08
mzungu<newlands_> QUESTION  will KVM use my 3D graphics card? VBox and VMWare do not, yet.16:09
sorenyann2: I'd really like to get back to you on that. Can we talk afterwards?16:10
sorennewlands_: No, I'm afraid not.16:10
yann2soren > np :)16:10
mzungu<yann2> QUESTION (yeah, 've got a lot, for later): KVM is in the kernel, so in main, so in theory supported by canonical - is it going to be supported even on processors with no virtualisation extensions (opterons 2nd generations, for example) with KVM running in QEMU16:10
sorenyann2: I'm inclined to say it can handle it, but I want to check before I say for sure.16:10
mzungu<Shiv> QUESTION: Which is faster? Bare_Metal -> Xen -> Guest_OS   OR   Bare_Metal -> Host_OS -> KVM/VirtualBox -> Guest_OS16:10
sorenyann2: No, we will not be supporting kvm running on CPU's that don't support it.16:11
sorenyann2: In fact, it will soon be completely disabled for slightly different reasons.16:11
sorenShiv: I'm not sure of the most recent benchmarks, but I believe they're very close to each other for pure computational purposes.16:12
sorenI'm inclined to claim that network and disk i/o will perform better if you're running Ubuntu Hardy inside your vm's.16:13
soren(in kvm).16:13
sorenDue to the availability of virtio in our kernel.16:13
sorenNext question, please.16:14
mzungu<edosar> QUESTION: What is the ubuntu position for VMWARE products?16:14
sorenUbuntu -- which is a free software project -- has no particular relation to VMWare.16:15
mzungu<BadServo> QUESTION:  At this time is Canonical focusing primarily on virtualization for the enterprise?  Becasue of the viable options, KVM/QEMU seems to be the most laking on user-friendly management apps for desktop.16:15
sorenI'm afraid to say much about the Canonical stance as I'm afraid to say something that is not entirely accurate.16:15
sorenBadServo: We are indeed focusing primarily on server use cases for our virtualisation efforts.16:16
sorenThere are graphical utilities to manage virtual machines (virt-manager primarily) that should lower the barrier of entry for regular desktop users as well.16:17
mzungu<shujin> QUESTION: Is there some way to convert VMWare virtual machines to KVM?16:17
sorenBadServo: If virt-manager doesn't fulfill your needs, I'd love to hear about it.16:17
sorenshujin: Heheh... I happen to know that within the last few hours, such a thing came into existence. It's not in any ubuntu package just yet, but stay tuned :)16:18
mzungu<eddyMul> QUESTION: will Ubuntu provide tools to manage virtual machines? ( a la SuSE's)16:18
sorenjdstrand wrote said script :)16:19
sorenI'm not entirely familiar with what SuSE's providing in that arena? ANyone?16:19
eddyMulsoren: I think you answered it w/ virt-manager. thanx.16:19
mzungu<Shiv> QUESTION: (continuation....my observation is that virtual_box is faster. But intuitively Xen should have been faster due to lesser layers in between!)16:19
sorenThat's not really a question, is it?16:20
sorenIf so, I don't know the answer :)16:20
mzungu<shujin> QUESTION: Why was the KVM approach chosen over Xen?16:20
sorenAh. There's an FAQ if there ever was one :)16:20
sorenOk, there are a number of reasons.16:20
sorenMost of it boils down to supportability.16:21
sorenThe amount of code in the kernel is very small and modular compared to Xen.16:21
sorenXen is a significant kernel patch, which kvm lives in a tiny module.16:21
soren(it's also significant that the kvm stuff is in the mainline kernel, while Xen isn't).16:22
mzungu<yann2> QUESTION: how is time synchronisation handled? Are there going to be "vmtools"  for kvm?16:22
sorenAlso, due to kvm providing a fully virtualised environment the guests are running unmodified as well.16:22
sorenyann2: I've not had any problems with time synchronisation inside kvm for months.16:23
sorenyann2: Have you?16:23
mzungu<shujin> QUESTION: How is KVM at running non FOSS operating systems?16:24
sorenDon't know, don't care.16:24
mzungu<yann2> QUESTION: how many cores can a guest VM handle? Can KVM use properly 4/8/16 cores (like not getting 2 cores killed while others are idle)?16:24
shujinfair enough16:24
soren255 is the max, afair.16:25
mzungu<eddyMul> QUESTION: while the kvm code in kernel is small, how big is kvm's patchset against qemu?16:25
soreneddyMul: Good question.16:26
sorenWell, kvm mostly uses qemu for it's excellent virtual hardwar implementation.16:27
sorenWhat kvm does differently is that it passes code execution off to the cpu rather than emulatiing it.16:27
sorenWhich really mostly bypasses qemu.16:28
sorenOr those bits of it.16:28
mzungu<mzungu ;) > QUESTION: What would be a reasonable setup with ubuntu on the bare metal, and vms with jeos - in terms of performance limitations16:28
sorenTHere's a lot of work going on to merge the two code bases, though.16:28
sorenWell, part of the beauty is that you can start out by putting a lot of vm's on one machine. If they turn out to be too ressource hungry, you can just move them to another machine.16:29
sorenkvm even supports doing this "live".16:29
soreni.e. without shutting the vm down.16:29
sorenIt's impossible to say anything general and useful about it.16:30
sorenJust remember that the overhead is very small, so if you've got..16:30
sorena 2.5 GHz machine  with 2 GB ram in it, you can assign 1 GB ram to a guest and a few GB of space, and it will use the ram, but share the CPU with you.16:31
soren..so they will get CPU according to the host scheduler.16:31
sorenIf nothing in particular is running on the host, the guest will get the full 2.5GHz available to it (pretty much).16:32
mzungu<newlands_> QUESTION But in my testing Qemu has been by far the slowest virtualization. Is KVM faster?16:32
sorenSo if you have services that rarely run at the same time, you can have a lot of virtual machines on the same host.16:32
sorennewlands_: Qemu is dead slow. KVM is near-native speed.16:32
sorenThey work in *very* different ways.16:33
mzungu<yann2> QUESTION: can KVM guests use complete disk partitions from the host? How fast is the "disk format" of KVM?16:33
sorenqemu *emulates* everything.16:33
sorenyann2: KVM can use disk partitions (or logical volumes). No problem there.16:34
sorenw.r.t. to speed..16:34
sergevnsoren: Maybe irrelevant question, will there be an frontend for KVM for desktop use?16:34
sorenWell, by default you use raw images.16:34
sorenThere's no mapping, decompression or anything slowing you down.16:34
sorenIf you're even using partitions or logical volumes rather than files, you should have near native I/O performance.16:35
sorensergevn: Yes, virt-manager.16:35
mzungu<buks> QUESTION: If i dont have a processor with VT (centrino duo laptop), is vmware server my best option to run XP? that is what I am using now16:35
sorensergevn: It's there already.16:35
bigotto QUESTION: KVM: Can you exclusive use a PCI card in the guest? like a dvb-card?16:35
sorenbuxy: You could also use virtualbox.16:35
sorenSorry, that was for buks.16:35
sorenOr qemu with kqemu.16:35
sorenThere are many options. I recommend you try them to see which fits you best.16:36
nijabasergevn: please ask your question in #ubuntu-classroom-chat, prefixing with QUESTION16:36
sorenbigotto: I don't believe pci passthrough is finished yet. Sorry.16:36
mzungu<yann2> QUESTION: are you sure about that live migration bit? :)16:36
sorenyann2: Truth be told, it might be broken right now and it depends on certain circumstances, but yes.16:37
sorenyann2: The broken part will be fixed before release.16:37
mzungu<BadServo> QUESTION:  I know that streamlining the host OS on other virtualization platforms improves performance.  While Jeos is primarily intended for VMGuest appliances, would it be a suitable environment for hosting KVM?16:37
sorenyann2: The design of kvm certainly supports it and it used to work (and will work soon again)16:37
sorenBadServo: Sure.16:38
sorenBadServo: You can also just use the server edition.16:38
mzungu<eddyMul> QUESTION: can KVM "share memory" between guests (e.g. boths guests run JeOS, can they "share memory")?16:38
sorenBadServo: The differences are very minor when you're not running in vmware.16:38
soreneddyMul: Not right now. *maybe* before release.16:38
mzungu<BadServo> QUESTION:  Are there any plans that you are currently aware of to fix the dependency issues preventing installation of virt-manager in the official repositories on Gutsy prior to Hardy release?16:39
sorenBadServo: If I can find the time, I might backport the stuff to gutsy.. I much, much prefer testing results based on hardy, though.16:40
sorenWhich brings me to another thing:16:40
sorenI could really, really use some testing of all of this.16:40
sorenAny feedback (good, bad, indifferent) would be much appreciated.16:40
sorenFeel free to /msg me on IRC, ask me in #ubuntu-virt, anything.16:41
sorenI'd love to hear from you.16:41
mzungu<Ju> QUESTION : xen + bridge-utils let administrators have a 'headache free' experience with the guest vm network, does kvm provide anything similar ?16:41
sorenNot kvm by itself. libvirt does.16:41
soren..but that distinction should not matter much to you, so the answer is pretty much "yes". :)16:42
mzungu<eddyMul> QUESTION: testing stuff for hardy: If I want to help, do you have a documented test plan? (so I don't just go poking around like crazy...)16:42
soreneddyMul: I'd rather not restrict the testing efforts in any way. Anything you feel should work in a vm, try it, and let me know if it works out for you.16:42
sorenWell.. One thing though:16:43
sorenI'm honestly not very interested to hear about testing results from Gutsy.16:43
sorenIf you're not comfortable upgrading to hardy just yet, you can run kvm from a live cd!16:43
soren(just don't forget that running on a livecd is probably quite a bit slower than your real system)16:44
eddyMulsoren: it would be great to have a document about "if you want to test kvm support in hardy, here's how to start/boot"16:44
soreneddyMul: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KvmVirtManagerEtc16:44
sorenThere's a bit of stuff to get you started.16:45
sorenIf there are no questions, I can tell a bit about the software stack we're using..16:45
mzungugo ahead...16:45
sorenOn the host, we have kvm-60 in the kernel and likewise in user space.16:45
sorenThis is the most recent kvm release (at least it was a few days ago).16:46
sorenOn top of that, we have libvirt.16:46
sorenlibvirt is both a library and a management daemon.16:46
sorenlibvirt is mostly developed by RedHat.16:46
sorenThe management daemon looks after your kvm processes when you can't be bothered to :)16:46
sorenYou can connect to it, tell it to start up a virtual machine, and then disconnect.16:47
sorenIf you need to access the console, you can connect to it via vnc and you'll see the regular login prompt.16:47
sorenFor a GUI, we're using virt-manager (also from RedHat).16:47
sorenIt provides a snazzy UI where you can see the VM's that are registered on each of your nodes (you can do remote management as well).16:48
sorenYou can see how much memory they're using and all that sort of thing.16:48
soren..start them, stop them, freeze them, copy to another host, thaw them..16:48
sorenAll sorts of cool stuff.16:48
sorenWe also have a little script called ubuntu-vm-builder..16:49
sorenIt can be used to bootstrap a new Ubuntu vm instance in no time at all (well, a few minutes, but it feels like no time at all).16:49
sorenNot surprisingly, this was developed by Ubuntu people :)16:50
sorenAw, no questinos?16:51
sorenquestions, even?16:51
mzungu<jcastro> QUESTION: Where is ubuntu-vm-builder, I can't seem to find it in hardy16:51
sorenjcastro: It landed just a few hours ago.16:51
sorenjcastro: Hang on.16:52
sorenI'm not making this up :)16:53
mzungu<BadServo> QUESTION:  As an authority on Virtualization technologies, what do you think will be the next steps as far as the evolution of VM capabilities. or host interactions.  Since KVM is predominantly emulaiton based, do you feel mroe advanced paravirtualization will be less attractive int eh future?16:53
sorenkvm is not emulation based, really.16:53
nijabathe version that just landed in Universe is broken for KVM at the moment.  Use my branch instead...16:53
sorenI'll update ubuntu-vm-builder tonight to fix that :)16:53
nijabathanks soren :)16:54
sorenBadServo: We're employing several paravirtual sorts of things in kvm, too.16:54
mzungu<yann2> QUESTION: can KVM do snapshots? multiple snapshots?16:54
sorenBadServo: The virtio stuff is paravirtualisation. It depends on the host and the guest being aware of each other and their roles and thus make each others life easier and your stuff faster :)16:55
sorenyann2: Yes, kvm can.16:55
sorenyann2: virt-manager doesn't help you much in that respect, but kvm and libvirt both have the hooks to do so.16:55
sorenyann2: It's got a few idiosyncracies, though.16:56
mzungu<eddyMul> QUESTION: any possible future cooperation w/ rPath and their VM appliance stuff?16:56
sorenyann2: (it depends on the disk image format to be able to save snapshots and such.16:56
soreneddyMul: Anything's possible :) Currently, there's no cooperation or even interaction (at least with me).16:57
soreneddyMul: We really prefer to have just one base OS on top of which people can put their applications if the so please.16:57
soreneddyMul: rather than having thousands of specially built OS's.16:58
sorenThat could change though.16:58
mzungu<BadServo> QUESTION:  With Ubuntu adopting KVM as the preffered solution, has there been any noticeable increase in interest or development?16:58
sorenWell, one of the reasons we chose KVM was because it was already a *Very* active project.16:59
* nijaba thinks that's the last question16:59
sorenQumranet, IBM, and Intel are all involved to various degrees.16:59
sorenI don't think that has changed in either direction since we decided to use it.16:59
soren1700 UTC!17:00
dholbachThanks a lot soren and nijaba for hosting the session!17:00
sorenThanks for stopping by, guys! Keep those test reports coming in!17:00
nijabaI did not host anything...17:00
sorenmzungu: Thanks!17:00
nijabaBut thanks :)17:00
Juthank you17:00
dholbachFor those of you who have more interest in Virtualisation, there's always #ubuntu-virt17:00
dholbachhelp soren to make Virtualisation ROCK for Hardy :)17:00
dholbachNext up is "MOTU Processes"17:01
mzunguthanks, soren17:01
shujin+1 even!17:01
dholbachfirst of all I'd like to apologize, we had to change the schedule a bit yesterday, so for those of you interested in Virtualisation: the log will be available tomorrow on the https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDeveloperWeek page17:02
dholbachalso as I said before there's always #ubuntu-virt17:02
dholbachand soren is happy to answer questions all day :)17:02
dholbachsoren: right? :)17:02
dholbachOK... here we go - MOTU Processes17:02
sorenSure thing.17:02
dholbachif you have questions, please ask in #ubuntu-classroom-chat and prefix with QUESTION: - I'm happy to answer everything related to MOTU, Ubuntu Development and Drum'n'Bass music17:03
dholbachfirst of all: What do MOTUs do and why should you care? :-)17:03
dholbachMOTUs are the Masters of the Universe and take care of ~15000 packages in Universe and Multiverse17:03
dholbachit's the first stepping stone for developing Ubuntu and MOTUs are a really friendly bunch of people17:04
dholbach<Riddell> QUESTION: what's the difference between ~motu and ~ubuntu-dev on launchpad?17:04
dholbachRiddell: ~ubuntu-dev includes ~motu plus ~ubuntu-core-dev17:05
dholbachmembers of ~ubuntu-core-dev are allowed to upload to all parts of Ubuntu (main and restricted included)17:05
dholbachthe process for joining MOTU is relatively straight-forward17:05
dholbach1. you contribute and get patches and packages uploaded by sponsors17:05
dholbach2. you go back to 1. until your sponsors think you do a very good job and are tired of uploading them for you17:06
dholbach3. you apply for MOTU membership at the MOTU Council17:06
dholbachdone :)17:06
dholbach<shiv_> QUESTION: how many MOTUs doesn't ubuntu have?17:06
dholbachshiv_: Ubuntu could always do with more MOTUs :-)17:06
dholbach~ubuntu-dev lists 110 active members17:07
dholbach<jetsaredim> QUESTION: how do you get people to sponsor you?17:07
dholbach<eddyMul> QUESTION: I have a patch in an LP bug report somewhere. How do I get it sponsored?17:07
dholbachthat's what I wanted to get to next17:07
dholbachthis process we call sponsoring: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SponsorshipProcess17:07
dholbachbasically you attach your patch to a bug report and subscribe the ubuntu-universe-sponsors (or for main/restricted the ubuntu-main-sponsors team)17:08
dholbachthey will review your work, test it, then use the patch, sign the source package with their GPG key, then upload to the build daemon17:08
dholbachhttp://people.ubuntu.com/~dholbach/sponsoring/ has an overview of the bugs that are currently sitting in the queue17:09
dholbachbut we dealt with lots lots lots more already :)17:09
dholbachthe process I just described just works for packages that are in Ubuntu already17:09
dholbachwhat about NEW packages? completely new, never packaged software17:10
dholbachhttps://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Packages/REVU explains how to upload your fresh and new package to a site we call REVU17:10
dholbachit will have to be reviewed and acknowledged by 2 members of ubuntu-dev, then uploaded to the build daemons, then reviewed by the archive admins who have the final say17:11
dholbachas we are in Feature Freeze right now, no NEW packages are accepted any more (only if they get a Freeze exception granted)17:11
dholbachso it's probably better to fix bugs to make Hardy rock :-)17:11
dholbach<mirrado> QUESTION: I want to help packaging games. Are there especific sponsors for especific topics or I can ask for help to any MOTU?17:11
dholbachmirrado: the ubuntu-*-sponsors team take care of everything17:12
dholbachmirrado: of course some teams do it differently and you can just tell somebody on the team to upload a patch you mailed them, but the generic process is preferrable since it does not block on certain people17:12
dholbach<juliank> QUESTION: If there is a new Debian release of a package, containing only bugfixes, can it be merged during FF without a special exception?17:12
dholbachjuliank: The process for that is explained at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FreezeExceptionProcess17:13
dholbachmain/restricted freeze exception are granted by the ubuntu-release team17:13
sistpoty|workshort answer: yes17:13
dholbachuniverse/multiverse freeze exception are granted by the motu-release team17:13
dholbachsistpoty|work: was my answer wrong?17:14
sistpoty|workdholbach: nope... but that allowing bugfix only releases (at least for motu) was decided just an hour ago (unless motu-meeting should decide otherwise)17:15
dholbachsistpoty|work: ah interesting - thanks for letting us know17:15
dholbachas you can see: our processes change every now and then, because we aim to make working in Ubuntu even more straight-forward :)17:16
dholbach<InsClusoe> QUESTION: OFFTOPIC: Do MOTUs have a life outside contributing to ubuntu? Is there enough time to do a day job and a MOTU's tasks?17:16
dholbachInsClusoe: absolutely17:16
dholbachthe MOTUs who are here maybe can comment on that :)17:16
dholbach<eddyMul> QUESTION: if I have a patch for git-core, and if apt-cache says git-core belongs to "main", should I subscribe ubuntu-main-sponsors to my bug? (#188218)17:16
dholbacheddyMul: exactly17:16
dholbachare there any other questions about "Joining MOTU" and "Sponsorship Process"?17:17
dholbachI'm happy if it all seems straight-forward to you too :)17:18
dholbachthe question I usually get most is: "Do I need to know a lot of programming languages to become a MOTU?"17:18
dholbachI gave the answer so many times, that I added it to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/FAQ - let me quote :)17:19
dholbachMuch more important than having a lot of progamming experience is17:19
dholbach * being a good team player17:19
dholbach * learning by reading documentation, trying things out and not being afraid to ask questions17:19
dholbach * being highly motivated17:19
dholbach * having a knack for trying to make things work17:19
dholbach * having some detective skills17:19
dholbachI hope you feel encouraged :-)17:19
dholbachlet's go back to Feature Freeze exceptions as that's the stage of the release schedule we're in right now17:20
dholbachthey are generally necessary for packages that contain a new upstream version and for completely NEW packages17:21
dholbachlater down the road to the release the upload queue will be frozen and all changes have to be ACKed17:21
dholbach<eddyMul> QUESTION: I'm a selfish jerk who likes to work on stuff I care only. Being a MOTU seemed to involve doing stuff for other people, which, while noble, might be hard for me to do. Am I fit to be a MOTU?17:21
dholbacheddyMul: absolutely - we have people who work on their pet bugs and have a very narrow interest17:22
dholbachthat's completely fine17:22
dholbachif people excel in a certain area I'm happy for them to create sub-teams and deal with things perfectly17:22
dholbachof course when you become a MOTU you need to demonstrate that you 1) are technically apt and 2) you know how to work in the Ubuntu lanscape and 3) are a good team player17:23
dholbachhttps://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/GettingStarted :)17:23
dholbach<eddyMul> QUESTION: OFFTOPIC: is there a good example for making "live svn/cvs/git" packages? is there a better way other than repetitively taking a snapshot.tar.gz from the repo?17:23
dholbacheddyMul: at the moment I only know of https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PackagingGuide/Recipes/UseBzrAndBzrBuildpackage which needs to get some love17:24
dholbachthe basic idea is to use helper tools like   bzr-builddeb  from your revision control tree17:25
dholbach<shiv_> QUESTION: Are the 15,000+ packages managed exclusively by MOTUs. Daunting number for ~100 people to manage.17:25
dholbachshiv_: that's one of the other favourite questions we get17:25
dholbachshiv_: we could always do with more people, but we also get a LOT of help17:25
dholbacha lot of contributors aren't MOTUs yet or just want to fix their favourite bug, we have upstream people reporting us to apply patches or update to a newer upstream version, we have debian developers who care about their package in ubuntu, etc17:26
dholbachthe role as an Ubuntu Developer is often to be the match-maker17:26
dholbachyou interact with your peers, with users, with upstream authors and people from different distros which is the number one reason for me to love working in the MOTU team: the people17:27
dholbach<shiv_> QUESTION: Does software package submission also require submission of test suites to demonstrate verification?17:27
dholbachshiv_: test suites are great and the future :-)17:28
dholbachcheck out "Writing Scripts For Automated Desktop Testing" by Lars Wirzenius on thursday for more info on that17:28
dholbachbut it's not a strict requirement, that's more of an upstream author job17:28
dholbach<juliank> QUESTION: How about introducing something similar to Dm-Upload-Allowed in Debian? - http://wiki.debian.org/Maintainers17:28
dholbachjuliank: I don't know of any plans using it and currently are not sure which problem would be solved by that17:29
dholbachjuliank: at the moment we do very well maintaining packages in the team, we all respect somebody else's expertise in a certain area and collaborate, also we don't block on certain people - maybe I've misunderstood your question though17:30
dholbach<shiv_> QUESTION: If a MOTU is interested in managing a set of packages, what kind of support is available via mailing lists, forums, etc to get notifications related to information related to these specific packages.17:30
dholbachshiv_: can you elaborate? which kind of support are you talking to?17:31
dholbachs/to/about :)17:31
dholbachonce you upload a package to the archive you can use the Launchpad bug tracker and answers tracker for it - that kind of support?17:32
dholbach<shiv_> QUESTION: Notifications on uploads, changes to versions, original author putting a flag on LP so that interested ppl get to know....17:32
dholbachahh, I see - well support for mailing lists is planned in LP, so you could form a ubuntu-frobnicator team and have a mailing list for it - does that help? :)17:33
dholbach<shiv_> QUESTION: I would like to know if for ex: gedit changed in debian, gedit bug got fixed in gentoo, or new sources of gedit got released on sf.net17:33
dholbachshiv_: ahhh ok, that's a nice idea17:33
dholbachfor new upstream versions we use debian/watch files (see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PackagingGuide/Recipes/DebianWatch for more info)17:34
dholbachfor all bug and fix related discussion we try to use Launchpad17:34
dholbachso if a user discovers a bug in gedit, we can link it to the equivalent upstream or debian bug and get notified if the status of it changes17:34
dholbachhttps://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/gedit/+bug/177710 is an example of that17:35
dholbach<shiv_> QUESTION (continued) is there any tooling support  or I collate the info actively and help percolate.17:35
dholbachshiv_: I'm sure that if you can come up with a list of requirements you see for that, the Launchpad developers would love to hear - LP is definitely the place for that information17:36
dholbach#launchpad on irc.freenode.net and launchpad-users@lists.canonical.com17:36
dholbach<eddyMul> QUESTION: way.... off-topic: what's frobnicator? This is the 2nd/3rd time I saw it mentioned by dholbach.  (me trying to get the cult references....)17:36
dholbacheddyMul: I'm sorry - I'm not sure where I read it first but I know I read it in some book :-)17:36
dholbach<TuxCrafter> dholbach: do you now if it will be possible to get device specific kernels supported in universe if i create a tested debian package for this device (eeepc17:37
TuxCrafterdholbach: im here17:37
dholbachTuxCrafter: so that would be just about a module you build?17:37
dholbachthanks Solarion :)17:37
TuxCrafterdholbach: nope the hole kernel i want to take the ubuntu kernel source and use my own config file and build a optimised kernel for the device17:38
TuxCrafterand get it in universe17:38
dholbachI'm not sure the archive admins would be happy with that17:38
dholbachimagine a security hole in the kernel: you'd have to patch it two times17:38
dholbachbest to discuss with the kernel folks in #ubuntu-kernel to see how they deal with kernel flavours17:39
dholbachto be honest I don't know their processes too well17:39
dholbachI haven't built a kernel in ages :-)17:39
dholbach<buks> QUESTION: how do I highlight an already reported bug in hardy as being of high priority imo. or do i just leave it and hope someone fixes it?17:39
dholbachhum... buks is not around in here?17:40
dholbachbuks: you can always talk to the specific team in their respective team channel or on their mailing list and ask how serious they think the issue is - also asking in #ubuntu-bugs does not hurt if you really think it has been overlooked17:40
dholbachthere are usually a few indicators for HIGH importance bugs like number of duplicates, number of subscribers and I think we our QA team does a good job tracking them :)17:41
dholbachthese three pages are really important and should be your first idea when you can't figure something out:17:42
dholbachOne process I want to talk about is the Sync Request Process17:42
dholbachsyncing means: copy a source package unmodified from debian to ubuntu, overwrite our current source package and build it17:43
dholbachthis means that if we did local ubuntu changes, they will be overwritten17:43
dholbachso syncing gedit 2.21.92-2 from debian if we have 2.21.92-1ubuntu1 is something we need to check carefully17:44
dholbachif we are able to sync (and the current timing in the release schedule allows it), it's good to be in sync17:45
dholbachso how do we request a sync?17:45
dholbachhttps://wiki.ubuntu.com/SyncRequestProcess explains it, in a nut shell:17:45
dholbach - you file a bug report, mention the changes in debian that have happened since the current ubuntu version17:46
dholbach - state that no ubuntu changes will be overwritten (else we can't sync)17:46
dholbach - state that you have built it locally and it works nicely17:46
dholbachin addition to that:17:46
dholbach - if you're not a MOTU yet, subscribe ubuntu-universe-sponsors or ubuntu-main-sponsors respectively and let them ACK the sync bug17:47
dholbachthe ~ubuntu-archive team then will deal with it17:47
dholbachof course this depends on the current timing of the release, if we're in feature freeze you need to get an exception for a new upstream version and so on17:47
dholbachalso things like bigger transitions two weeks away from release is probably a bad idea :)17:48
juliankdholbach: There's also requestsync in ubuntu-dev-tools17:48
dholbach<polopolo> QUESTION: I don't know of this is the right time/place, but, If I join MOTU, I can choose to be a part of a motu team, but can I choose to be not a part of these teams or not?17:48
dholbachjuliank: good point! ubuntu-dev-tools is good stuff! :-)17:48
dholbachpolopolo: I'm not sure I understand: first you start contributing (in whatever area you like), then once your sponsors are happy with you you can apply for motu membership17:48
dholbachpolopolo: if in addition to that you want to join say the server team or the dekstop team or anything else, that's completely fine17:49
dholbachMOTU is your onramp to ubuntu development17:49
dholbach<InsClusoe> QUESTION: Is there any page where MOTUs maintain a list of active maintainers of a package and is there any way to find if more contributors are needed?17:49
polopolodholbach: but if I am a MOTU, can I choose to be NOT a part if these teams?17:49
dholbachpolopolo: if you wish to leave a team, that's fine - it's your call17:50
dholbachInsClusoe: found it: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DeveloperResponsibilities17:50
dholbachit's a bit incomplete, but usually the maintainer field or the last uploaders in debian/changelog or the X-VCS-* header in debian/control will give you an idea who has a major interest in the package and who you can talk to about it17:51
dholbachInsClusoe: there are lots of packages that need love: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/TODO and http://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/TODO/Bugs should give you a good idea of what you can help out with17:52
juliankdholbach: VCS- is supported now, no X* prefix needed17:52
dholbachjuliank: right... seems I'm a bit behind the times :-)17:52
dholbachthanks juliank17:52
dholbach<shiv_> QUESTION: Slightly off-topic. While syncing with debian, how does one ensure history of changes done in the ubuntu line is not lost?17:52
dholbachshiv_: if there are no changes in ubuntu worth keeping, we decide to drop changes to debian/changelog17:52
dholbachshiv_: Launchpad (http://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/<srcpkg name>) will store it though17:53
dholbach<juliank> QUESTION: What to do if the sponsor says to you that he will advocate you for MOTU, but then does not (without any explanation)?17:53
dholbachjuliank: best to talk to your sponsor about it again - if that fails you could ping a MOTU Council about it and let them mediate17:54
dholbach<polopolo> QUESTION: is there a minium age to be a MOTU?17:54
dholbachpolopolo: no, not at all - I don't know who our youngest MOTU is17:54
dholbachI'd suspect 16-17?17:54
dholbachIf we have a younger MOTU than that in here, please speak up! :-)17:54
dholbachthe only things we really require are:17:54
dholbach 1. good track record of good contributions17:54
dholbach 2. good track record of actively collaborating with team mates17:55
Tm_Tdholbach: IIRC 15 is youngest, though could be corrupted memory17:55
dholbachTm_T: who? :)17:55
dholbach 3. showing that you know about Ubuntu processes17:55
Tm_Tdholbach: sorry, there's the corruption mostly =)17:55
dholbachthat's it17:55
polopolodolbach: well, i'm very younger then that, but I wanna help ubuntu17:55
Tm_Tpolopolo: it's an advantage then, you have most years to help us ;)17:56
dholbachpolopolo: that's excellent - I hope to see you in #ubuntu-motu on the mailing list and requesting reviews for patches of yours soon :)17:56
dholbachand that goes for you all of you - let me know how your MOTU journey goes if you're interested: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/GettingStarted17:56
dholbachno more questions? :-)17:57
polopolodholbach: I am thinking17:57
dholbachexcellent - thanks a lot for attending and thanks for all the good questions17:57
Tm_Tdholbach: big thank you :)17:58
dholbachwe have two more minutes until Tm_T is ready to rock the show and bring you Kubuntu love!17:58
* dholbach hugs Tm_T17:58
* Tm_T hides17:58
enautThanks to you17:58
jussi01!life | dholbach you lie!17:58
ubotudholbach you lie!: life is something very few people know about in this channel - and anyway, it's probably offtopic, perhaps you want to try #ubuntu-offtopic17:58
dholbachjussi01: pfffft17:58
Tm_Tjussi01: you waited a full hour for that?17:59
jussi01Tm_T: I couldnt interupt the class...17:59
Tm_Ttrue there :))17:59
polopoloQUESTION: Is there a possibiility that someone can help  to be MOTU18:00
buksQUESTION: off topic, seeing as the class has not started yet:) how do you do that reply to a person thingy in irc without having to type their name18:00
Unksibuks: press first letter and then tab?18:00
coggzUnksi: aha18:00
* buks whee thanx18:01
Unksiyw :)18:01
Tm_T!tab | buks18:01
ubotubuks: You can use <tab> for autocompletion of nicknames in IRC, as well as for completion of filenames and programs on the command line.18:01
coggzhow do you change colour18:01
Tm_Tcoggz: #ubuntu for support ;)18:01
mruizthanks dholbach18:01
coggzno, irc text colour18:01
bukscoggz: no colour!, the motd says so :)18:01
coggzokok, but u are using red18:01
* Tm_T gets his party hat on18:02
Unksicoggz: its your client that does it18:02
Riddelldholbach: sooo, what's the next talk?18:03
dholbach<dholbach> we have two more minutes until Tm_T is ready to rock the show and bring you Kubuntu love! :-)18:04
dholbachI thought it was clear from that :)18:04
dholbachTm_T and Riddell: thanks for being here tonight - the stage is yours... Let's all get ready for some hot K action :)18:04
* buks is panting and wagging tail18:05
Tm_Tbuks: behave, or you go walking with dholbach18:05
* buks is sitting quitly waiting18:05
dholbachit's  Kubuntu  time18:06
Tm_Tmaybe I should introduce myself first: my name is Jussi Kekkonen, I'm fron Finland, been Linux user from early 2004 and messing with KDE and Ubuntu and their developers since late 200418:06
=== toma is now known as toma_
=== never|mobi is now known as neversfelde|mobi
Tm_TI mostly spend my time running "bleeding edge or beyond" apps and then complaining when they fail to do what I want, also doing a lot of user support and being evil IRC police18:07
dasKreechAll hail the evil IRC police!18:08
Tm_TdasKreech: sshh18:08
* dasKreech phears the stick18:08
Tm_Tthen something about Kubuntu: its the better, younger, more good looking side of Ubuntu powertwins, the KDE part to be precise18:09
jussi01QUESTION: Do you have any connection to the Education team?18:10
Tm_TI don't know what I should tell you more for it so questions please :)18:10
jussi01QUESTION: Is it true that KDE 4 will not be officially supported in hardy LTS, or am I just druk?18:10
Tm_TI do have some plans to edu side, but it isn't yet in full throttle, sorry18:11
RiddellEdubuntu includes KDE's Edu applications18:12
Tm_TRiddell: was it so that KDE4 and KDE3 both are out from LTS but the base is?18:12
Riddellthere's also an Edubuntu KDE 4 meta package18:12
jussi01 < amachu> QUESTION: Why prefer Openoffice over KOffice in Kubuntu?18:12
Tm_Tyes, KDE has excellent EDU applications, in both KDE3 and in KDE418:12
Riddelland there are large rollouts of Kubuntu in eductional uses, Canary Islands, Georgia, Philippines18:12
shujinBritish Columbia, Canada too ;)18:13
_Brandon_QUESTION: i don't know if it is in topic but why kubuntu use ark instead of kioslave to open compressed files? :)18:13
Tm_Tand more in the furure, when we Konquer the world18:13
RiddellLTS support: 4.0 is nothing like ready for LTS support.  it's KDE's "eat your children" release.  so 3.5.9 will be the commercially supported version for hardy18:13
Riddellbut 4.0 will be the exciting new version that gets most publicity18:13
jussi01_Brandon_: questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat please18:14
emilsedghQUESTION: will adept/restricted manager and other Kubuntu-supported projects will come in KDE4 version, or better to ask, will their Qt4/KDE4 version appear in Kubuntu 8.04's KDE4 version?18:14
Riddellamachu: there's some serious problems with KOffice 1.  it doesn't print at all well and it's full of bugs18:14
Riddellamachu: I expect that to change with KOffice 218:15
jussi01< shujin> QUESTION: Should I direct questions about the KDEedu apps to the Kubuntu people or the Education team?18:15
Tm_Tmany new users just found OO.o more usable enough to be better this way18:15
amachuRiddell: Ok18:17
Tm_Temilsedgh: hmm, there's work being done, I'm not sure will it be ready for 8.04 though18:17
Tm_TRiddell: ^18:17
Riddellemilsedgh: restricted manager is now called jockey, there's a qt 4 version in hardy18:17
emilsedghTm_T: so which one we could expect to appear in 8.04?18:17
Riddellemilsedgh: mornfall is working on adept for KDE 4, find it in ~mornfall PPA on launchpad18:17
jussi01emilsedgh: please join #ubuntu-classroom-chat to ask questions :)18:18
* Tm_T sips coffee18:18
jussi01< polopolo> QUESTION: is there any reasons why some of the self-devolped programs of ubuntu are not included at kubuntu like compiz etc?18:18
emilsedghthanks, you rock, sorry jussi01, i thought its the place for that18:18
Tm_Tshujin: I think Edu group might be better, as we can't concentrate much in to it currently18:18
Tm_Tpolopolo: being not stable enough to be included by default? IIRC Compiz isn't known to behave well enough in KDE18:19
shujinThanks, I only ask because the Edu team seems a little swamped18:19
Tm_Tshujin: all help is welcome in both groups :)18:20
coggzyes, compiz crashes very often under KDE18:20
jussi01< dennisv> QUESTION: Why is krita not installed by default in gutsy?18:20
Tm_Tshujin: and I would love to help with it18:20
Tm_Tdennisv: it isn't? I thought it is18:20
Riddelldennisv: space on the CD.  I love krita but it's a large app and the CD only provides a basic desktop18:21
jussi01Tm_T: no, it isnt. I would imagine because of size constraints.18:21
Tm_Tah, true18:21
jussi01< amachu> QUESTION: If KDE4 is not going to happen with Hardy, will upgrade be suuported for those who have installed recent Kubuntu release specific to KDE4?18:21
Tm_TI saw some list where it was included, too much reading lately to make me fuzz18:21
Riddellshujin: most questions about KDEedu apps should go to the kde edu developers, we mostly just package their software18:21
Tm_Tamachu: it does have KDE4 already18:21
jussi01QUESTION: why does is seem like gnome is the more officially liked over KDE, when to me (coming from windows) KDE feels a lot more easy to migrate to thatn gnome.?18:22
emilsedghshujin: #kde-edu is their channel18:22
Tm_Tamachu: and we (atleast apachelogger?) is working for assistants to make moving from 3 to 4 easy and painless18:22
Riddell_Brandon_: ark supports many more formats than ioslaves18:22
=== toma_ is now known as toma
jussi01Tm_T: last question was from buks18:24
amachuTm_T: Ok, Thank You18:24
Tm_Tbuks: GNOME has more resources in some way yes, because it has their release schedule sync with Ubuntu and other technical reasons18:24
jussi01< oloughlin75> QUESTION: Is 8.04 coming in two flavours? A kde3 and a kde4 as different install discs? Or will kde3 be default with the option to install kde4 or vice versa?18:25
Tm_TBUT many of those developers also help with K side, so, it's not they against us but we together hopefully18:25
Riddell"KDE4 is not going to happen"?  KDE 4 will be on our CDs and on shipit and be the exciting new feature.  the only thing it won't be is commercially supported.18:25
emilsedghQUESTION: any plan to support bulletproof X for kdm?18:25
Tm_Toloughlin75: IIRC both install options will be there18:25
Tm_Temilsedgh: yes18:25
jussi01emilsedgh: questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat, then they will be relayed in here in turn. thanks :)18:26
buksTm_T: I guess it also boils down to personal choice. I like KDE and will advocate it. A work friend (windows user) of mine commented that gnome looks like a toy with its big fonts and big windows. kde looks more slick18:26
Tm_Tbuks: true :)18:27
Tm_Tbuks: best we can do to fix this issue is to make Kubuntu rock most18:27
jussi01 < sahin_w> QUESTION: KDE4 will be preconfigured/customized for Hardy? For example: knetworkmanager start at login time... etc.18:27
Riddelloloughlin75: yes there will be two disks, so you can chose the one that suits you.  New and exciting or Nice and stable.18:27
Tm_Tsahin_w: should be Kubuntified18:28
buksTm_T: hell, I seem to be using KDE3, and thought it was KDE4, and I still thinks it rocks :)18:28
Tm_Tbuks: they do both ;)18:29
jussi01< sahin_w> QUESTION: Is there any plan to automatic codec install for Kaffeine just like totem?18:29
Tm_TRiddell: see sahin_w question, didn't we have that in Kaffeine?18:29
* Tm_T has been way too long without "Kubuntu desktop"18:30
regelI thought Kaffeine playd all kind of stuff out of the box18:30
regelI didn't have to install anything to get DVB working18:30
jussi01Tm_T: Its in amarok, and so I would imaginf kaffeine18:30
Riddellsahin_w: yes, we added that recently to kaffine.  it needs a bit more testing but it should work18:31
jussi01< nemphis> QUESTION: How is the progress at hardy catchup? Will kubuntu 8.04 have the same features as ubuntu 8.04?18:31
sahin_wRiddell: Thanks.18:31
Tm_Tnemphis: lot to do, lot have been done, I afraid we don't get all they have but close I hope18:32
Tm_Tall help is welcome ;)18:32
Riddellnemphis: two desktops will never have the exact same features but all of KubuntuHardyCatchup is implemented pending bugs and testing18:32
jussi01< sahin_w> QUESTION: I saw the proposed defult ubuntu wallpaper. Why don't you create a blue one for Kubunu too? I mean: the same wallpaper with blue colors.18:33
Tm_TRiddell: installers does vary some features yet, right? ;)18:33
Riddellso we have bullet proof X (as much as ubuntu desktop does), automatic printer setup, a simple compiz setup tool, codec install, brightness control, xdg home dirs and user hard disk mounting18:34
Riddellwow, what a rocking community of developers we have18:34
Tm_Tgood :))18:34
* jussi01 hugs Riddell 18:34
Tm_TRiddell: I'll catch those and update wikipage, ok?18:34
Tm_Tsahin_w: we are not "blue ubuntu" ;) and also kwwii is the man you should bug when talking about artwork, he's our painter18:35
Riddellsahin_w: we take our artwork inspiration from KDE, since the aim of Kubuntu is to be the best KDE distro18:35
jussi01< dasKreech> QUESTION: Will KDE4 on hardy be pure or will you install KDE3 to make life easy?18:36
Tm_Tor I could say that, "we can be better than just a blue brother of that brown one"18:36
Tm_TdasKreech: there will be some apps from KDE3 because those are not ready for serious use yet, kdepim for example18:36
sahin_wTm_T: Well, good answer!18:36
Tm_TdasKreech: sufficient answer?18:37
jussi01< dasKreech> QUESTION: will there be a kubuntu3-desktop or a Kubuntu4-desktop ?18:38
Tm_Tkubuntu-desktop and kubuntu-kde4-desktop if I remember these things right18:39
jussi01< polopolo> QUESTION: If I want something added at a package of kubuntu, who do I need to contact?18:39
dasKreechTm_T: yup18:40
Tm_Tpolopolo: package maintainer and/or kubuntu-devel mailinglist are good startingpoints I believe18:40
polopoloTm_T: ok, I should start with it, thank you18:40
Tm_Tpolopolo: thank to you :)18:40
TuxCrafterdholbach: i just read the transcript of packaging 101 and i have some questions18:40
Tm_TTuxCrafter: not here?18:41
TuxCrafteris the session starting?18:41
TuxCrafterok np18:41
TuxCraftermoving to chat18:41
Tm_Tthanks :)18:41
jussi01< talavis> QUESTION: which Kubuntu CD (KDE 3 or 4?) will be available through shipit?18:41
Riddellpolopolo: #kubuntu-devel is often more active than the mailing list18:42
Tm_Ttalavis: KDE318:42
RiddellKDE 418:42
Tm_Tshame on me18:42
jussi01< shujin> QUESTION: Is there a KDE4 replacement for Kiosktool?18:42
Tm_Tpolopolo: yes, irc is always good for poking :))18:42
Riddellnot 100% final that, but we like to ship new and exciting things18:42
polopoloRiddel: ok Tm_T: ok, I gonna go there18:42
* dasKreech phears the stick18:42
Tm_Tshujin: umm, I haven't seen yet one18:43
apache|mobileshujin: no, however there is quite some demand for it from what I noticed18:44
shujinI can't move forward without it18:44
dasKreechshujin: Tentaive for KDE4.1 You can sit out till then18:44
Tm_Tshujin: poke upstream (related KDE developers) :)18:44
dasKreechIt's like 4 months away18:44
Tm_TKDE 4.0 is bit bare still, so I give most of my hopes for 4.1 and 4.218:45
jussi01 < emilsedgh> QUESTION: isnt there any plan for something like GTK-Qt engine so KDE3 apps look like KDE4 ones?18:46
Tm_Temilsedgh: not that I know18:46
Tm_Tcorrect me if I'm wrong18:46
emilsedghso please include GTK-KDE418:46
Tm_Tjussi01: next?18:47
jussi01 < emilsedgh> QUESTION: any plan for nightly builds of KDE4?18:47
Tm_Temilsedgh: not that I know, not much use unless you do with trunk and that can be adventurous as it needs a MUCH work and packages done which can't be used with 4.0 releases IIRC18:49
Riddellemilsedgh: there is this, I've no idea if it does anything currently http://cgit.freedesktop.org/~ruphy/gtk-qt4-engine/18:49
jussi01< polopolo> QUESTION: Is there a list of plans to be included in kubuntu hardy? and shows it wich is done and wich not?18:49
Riddellemilsedgh: it would be cool though, helpers welcome18:50
Tm_Temilsedgh: yes please help! ;)18:50
emilsedghits for GTK->Qt4, i asked for something like Qt3->Qt4, btw please include it18:50
nosrednaekimpolopolo » https://wiki.kubuntu.org/Kubuntu/Todo18:51
Riddellemilsedgh: ah right, I misread the question18:51
jussi01< shujin> QUESTION: Any Thin Client specific improvments planned for this release?18:51
polopolonosrednaekim: thank you18:52
Tm_Tshujin: not that I know outside of "HardyCatchup"18:52
Riddellshujin: most of the thin client stuff is done by edubuntu, and KDE should just work on top of it18:52
jussi01< oloughlin75> QUESTION: Is the KDE3 flvaor of 8.04 going to focus as strongly on visual appeal as the KDE4 version?18:53
Tm_Toloughlin75: not more than normally, usability and reliability should be main targets18:53
jussi01< fredreichbier> QUESTION: Is it planned to tidy up and reorganise the KDE control center? I didn't like it in KDE 3.5 ;-)18:54
Tm_Tfredreichbier: Kcontrol doesn't have active maintainers, so no, but that's the point of SystemSettings18:55
Tm_T(and IMO it's tidy already)18:55
jussi01< enaut> QUESTION: I have got a more general question: What are the similarities and where are the differences between Ubuntu and Kubuntu?18:55
Tm_Tsimilarities: we have pretty much same dream (and same base): to provide the best operating system to be available to everyone18:56
Tm_Tdifferences, well, we have just bit specialised to KDE, can't say about differences more in general18:57
jussi01< buks> QUESTION: a bit off topic, why is the .jigdo template for the daily DVD so huge (600MB) whereas the template for the CD is so small?18:57
Tm_Tdifferences lie in differences of GNOME and KDE mostly, I hope :p18:58
Tm_TI believe that Ubuntu and Kubuntu are the same, just bit different paint and chassis18:58
tomashujin, apache|mobile: i think i saw some porting effort for kiosktool18:58
Tm_Tone more question?18:59
jussi01< emilsedgh> QUESTION: any plan for some public advertisement in near (2-3 years) future?18:59
Tm_Ttime is up18:59
jussi01Tm_T: you have 2 mins19:00
Riddellonly if someone pays for it :)19:00
Tm_Temilsedgh: oh I hope so! that is discussed in marketing team often and well, so let's say "it's planned" but as Riddell said, money...19:00
Riddellso folks, Kubuntu has a great community and we want you to join it19:00
nosrednaekimand we have free beer....19:01
Riddellwe need people to help with packaging, bugs, CD testing, coding etc19:01
nosrednaekimbut you have to code for it :)19:01
mevenQUESTION: kubuntu will be present at FOSDEM ?19:01
jussi01Thanks for coming everyone!!19:01
Tm_Tall help is welcome, even if it's only user reports and testing, so there's no much step from every day user19:01
emilsedghif you needed help on web stuff, count on me19:01
Riddelldo drop in on #kubuntu-devel and start your free software helping19:01
Riddellmeven: yes, I'll be there.  I'll be giving a packaging tutorial19:02
Tm_Tthank you all for Kood questions :))19:02
nosrednaekimthanks Tm_T19:02
enautthank you for your answers19:02
mevenRiddell: see you there then ;)19:02
buksthanx Tm_T, kubuntu rocks!19:02
polopoloand what's next?19:04
luisbgUbuntu Derivatives Team19:04
Tm_TI'm sitting here for questions related to Kubuntu as derivative so leave now or I fry your brains19:04
* Tm_T hides19:04
* polopolo wanna know what that is19:04
* janimo is Jani Monoses, here for the derivatives meeting19:04
pixelpapstby Luis de Bethencourt Guimerá19:04
pixelpapstis he here yet ?19:04
luisbgpixelpapst, yes19:05
Tm_Tluisbg: are you here yet?19:05
pixelpapsterm, yes19:05
pixelpapstshould have guessed from the nick :)19:05
luisbgare the derivatives representants in the room?19:05
* thoreauputic is Peter Garrett, here for derivatives19:05
luisbgjanimo? Tm_T ? joejaxx ? AstralJava ? any more?19:05
* Tm_T is the Overseer19:05
* joejaxx is Joe Jaxx19:05
thoreauputicto talk about INX19:05
* AstralJava is Janne Jokitalo, here to talk about Ubuntu Studio and Fluxbuntu, if need be19:05
nosrednaekimnosrednaekim  here for kubuntu19:05
luisbgthoreauputic, nice!19:05
janimoluisbg: here19:05
thoreauputicluisbg: hello :)19:06
luisbglet's start with Xubuntu19:06
luisbgjanimo, presents us Xubuntu :)19:06
janimohuh :) ? it's a trap!19:06
joejaxxits a trap for me19:06
janimoI was supposed to prezent kiwi :)19:06
luisbgooops, mind glitch19:06
janimono really, what should I talk about re Xubuntu?19:06
* pixelpapst is here for Kairos, which is still in its infancy, so not much to present from me19:06
luisbgI ment Kiwi19:06
janimoOK, I can talk about Xubuntu too if there's interest it;s just that I wasn;t prepared for that, and I do not know what the audience knows abiut it aready19:07
janimoOk so about Kiwi Linux, here it comes19:07
luisbg:) go ahead19:07
janimoKiwiLinux is a derivative of the Ubuntu/GNOME 386 LiveCD. That is the only available release.19:07
GrazienoI present Linux Preview (brazil)19:08
janimoIt was first released one year ago and its main purpose is providing an even easier experience for newbies than Ubuntu.19:08
TuxCrafterhello everybody is the new session startign19:08
TuxCrafterhi joejaxx19:08
janimoFor now its target are Romanian and Hungarian users but English is also supported.19:08
janimoThe even easier experience comes from preinstalling stuff that either does not fit, not polished enough19:08
janimo or which is illegal in the US but fine in Romania (and most of the rest of the world for that matter).19:08
janimoSo the codecs, some ADSL modem firmware, pppoeconf GUI and ndisgtk and a slightly different package selection.19:08
janimoThe changes are kept at a minimum, both because we do not have many resources to spend and it would be pointless to diverge too much.19:08
thoreauputicjanimo: with a name like Kiwi I expected New Zealand ;)19:08
janimothoreauputic: yeah, most people do that, it was not the most fortunate choice of name :)19:09
buksjanimo: that is what i thought to19:09
janimowell it can be used in NZ, it has English support19:09
luisbglet's present all the derivatives in the room19:09
luisbgbefore we start with questions19:09
luisbgjanimo, let us know when the presentation is finished19:09
janimook a few more lines then19:09
janimoThe same package archives are used and an extra one at kiwilinux.org and the release schedule closely follows Ubuntu's.19:10
janimoTwo important features make this a very close derivative:19:10
janimo1) Since the archives are the same and only a handful of packages modified slightly it is easy to switch back to Ubuntu or vice versa.19:10
janimo2) Once installed the system is not very to what Ubuntu would lok like after 30-60 minutes of tweaking a base install and getting the missing stuff.19:10
janimoSo it is an Ubuntu that has many of the bits commercial distros like Xandros and Linspire have (codecs & stuff) but also remaining plain Ubuntu. Also unlike Mint it does keep the changes at minimum.19:10
janimoIt eases the first time experience for total newbies and for experienced users saves some time when installing on friends machines.19:10
janimoAnother goal is getting local people involved, who may contribute easier when perosnally knwing the devs (we have some contributors form the local LUG already)19:11
janimoas a first step toward becoming Ubuntu contributirs19:11
thoreauputichome page URL?19:11
janimothat's it in short19:11
luisbgAstralJava, want to present Ubuntu Studio?19:12
AstralJavaSure thing.19:12
luisbgjanimo, thanks! :)19:12
AstralJavaUbuntu Studio is a multimedia creation flavor of Ubuntu, aimed at people wishing to produce audio, video or graphics.19:12
AstralJavaWe have attempted to gather up the best open source applications and tie them together, so that users don't have to spend time tweaking their systems, but can concentrate on using it instead.19:12
AstralJavaHighlighting some applications from each areas: Ardour2 & Audacity for professional audio recording, Gimp & Inkscape & Blender for high quality graphics editing, and Open Movie Editor & Kino for easy video creation.19:12
pixelpapstjanimo, LP still lists kiwi.startx.ro as HP - you might wanna submit a ticket about that19:13
AstralJavaFor best possible resource utilization, we are shipping the real time kernel by default.19:13
AstralJavaUbuntu Studio has an active userbase on channel #ubuntustudio and on ubuntu-studio-users@lists.ubuntu.com, but you can find lots of documentation and other support means at http://ubuntustudio.org or https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/.19:13
janimopixelpapst: yeah, thanks. Although that is redirected now to the new name19:13
AstralJavaTo keep things short, that's it, let's talk more through questions.19:13
luisbgreminder:: questions will go after the presentations19:13
luisbgthanks AstralJava19:13
TeTeTAstralJava: is there a non linear video editor included that can load and save HD video?19:13
luisbgI believe Tm_T doesn't need to present Kubuntu19:14
luisbghe already did an hour a go :P19:14
luisbgthoreauputic, your turn!19:14
Tm_Tluisbg: thanks :)19:14
thoreauputicINX is a small live CD designed to work without X ( "INX IS Not X")19:14
thoreauputicYou can have a look at http://inx.maincontent.net . Ihave set up a "slideshow" showing some of the apps and how the menus look at http://inx.maincontent.net/album/1.png.html19:14
thoreauputicThe idea is to give people an easy introduction to the command line, while simultaneously giving them a workable live distro that runs without X and showing some of the cool stuff you can do in tty1-6  / virtual terminal19:15
thoreauputicI also have written an installer script to install it to a hard drive, but it is fairly primitive - assumes a single hard drive, makes a swap and / partition only and so on...19:15
luisbgjoejaxx, want to present fluxbuntu?19:16
joejaxxFluxbuntu is a LPAE-standard compliant, Ubuntu-based derivative.19:16
joejaxxIt is targeted towards older pcs, mobile and embedded devices19:17
joejaxxWe use the Ubuntu archive as a basis for the derivative while keeping an audited seed list which is different then Ubuntu19:17
joejaxxWe include lightweight applications along with a lightweight desktop19:18
joejaxxTo keep resource usage down to a minimum while giving the user a feeling of usability19:18
joejaxxThe website is http://fluxbuntu.org/19:19
* joejaxx will leave the rest for the q&a session later :)19:19
luisbgany other derivatives pending for presentation?19:19
luisbgsilence == NULL19:20
pixelpapstluisbg: i could say a few words19:20
luisbgpixelpapst, go ahead19:20
pixelpapstKairos is a project i started ~3 years ago19:21
pixelpapstas a Debian Sarge deriv19:21
pixelpapsta kind of in-house distri tuned to the needs of multiple-users-per-workstation19:21
pixelpapstover time, we pulled in a lot of backports, multimedia stuff etc.19:22
thoreauputicpixelpapst: URL ?19:22
pixelpapstto reduce the diff to upstream, we now choose a new upstream19:22
pixelpapstalthough that site doesn't have much info yet19:23
luisbgOK... last but not least...19:23
pixelpapstwe have most tickets internally until now19:23
pixelpapstbut I want to open everything up, even if it takes a little while :)19:23
pixelpapstluisbg: sorry, go on19:23
luisbgthe Ubuntu Derivatives Team19:24
luisbgthe goal of the team is unite to first:19:24
luisbghelp each other since we are all going to hit the same problems while derivating from Ubuntu19:24
luisbgsecond: find very common problems while deriving Ubuntu and lettting Ubuntu know about them as a whole group19:25
luisbgthird: extend the power of Ubuntu by making even better derivatives (specially purposeful ones :P)19:26
luisbgthat's the Ubuntu Derivatives Team in a nutshell19:26
luisbgjoin in #ubuntu-derivate, or the mailing list (in ubuntu mail server) any time if you want to join19:26
luisbglaunchpad team and wiki also help a lot ;)19:26
luisbgand now... the dreadful Q&A19:27
luisbg<nosrednaekim> QUESTION: so Kiwi is like Mint?19:27
luisbgand try to say the nick of the representant of the specific derivative the question is about19:27
luisbgjanimo, ^19:28
janimono, as I said it shares some of Mints goals19:28
janimobut tries to achieve the major ones with minimal work19:28
janimomost people want the out of the box multimedia experience19:28
janimoand what I do is have all those installed.19:28
janimoMint has much more ambitions, it's a whoe distro+community in itslef19:29
janimoI try to remain 99% ubuntu (hence only a few packages are changed)19:29
janimoKiwi artwork is similarly almost identical19:29
janimoso people using Ubuntu are familar with Kiwi and vice versa19:29
nosrednaekimjanimo » ok, great. thanks.... think you'll have a kiwi instead of heron?;)19:30
janimothe mai reason for it was not creating a distro19:30
luisbg<amachu> QUESTION: GNewSense is a Ubuntu Derivative, obviously. But how does Ubuntu actually look at it?19:30
janimothat was a necessary means of getting even more nebiews to  free software19:30
janimonosrednaekim: we'll keep almost everything as in Ubuntu including the heron :)19:30
luisbg<buks> QUESTION: so fluxbuntu is a lot like OpenGUE, but more focussed on hardware compatibility?19:31
luisbgjoejaxx, ^19:31
Riddellamachu: ubuntu works with GNewSense through gobuntu, which is intended as a base for GNewSense and other pure-free distros19:31
luisbgpixelpapst, make your comment19:32
pixelpapsti'm really interested in code sharing19:32
joejaxxi am not familiar enough with OpenGUE to comment unfortunately :\19:32
pixelpapstnot so much came out of the HCT idea19:33
luisbg<pixelpapst> QUESTION: jamino: what do you use for your repository ? reprepro ? dak ?19:33
pixelpapstbut dpkg upstream is discussion something similar at the moment19:33
luisbgjanimo, ^19:33
janimoI use reprepro on my local bix19:33
janimothen rsync that to kiwilinux.org19:33
pixelpapstreplacing source packages with git tarballs19:33
janimopretty lame I guess :)19:33
pixelpapsti'll post a thread URL in a sec19:33
luisbg<buks> QUESTION: AstralJava: is Ubuntu studio KDE or Gnome based, and does it matter in a derivative?19:34
janimoI will consider a more mature repo with dput uploads in the future19:34
pixelpapstjanimo: cool, like us :)19:34
AstralJavabuks: It is Gnome-based, and it matters in creating a unified feel to all apps etc.19:34
janimopixelpapst: :)19:34
buksAstralJava: Thanx19:34
luisbg<buks> QUESTION: AstralJava: Does Ubuntu Studio have procedure docs which exaplains how to get certain tasks done which might involve using many of the apps. like to make a home dvd you need to do X Y Z, using apps A B C19:35
pixelpapstgit source packages discussion: http://lists.debian.org/debian-dpkg/2008/02/msg00007.html and http://lists.debian.org/debian-dpkg/2008/02/msg00012.html19:35
InsClusoeFor everyone interested in GNewSense, it's called Gobuntu after its 'ubuntufication'.  7.10 is currently available and for more info, check out https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Gobuntu?highlight=%28Gobuntu%2919:35
AstralJavabuks: Not at the moment, no, but feel free to browse through all current docs at http://ubuntustudio.org and https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuStudio, and contribute if something's missing.19:36
thoreauputicInsClusoe: no, GnewSense is separate if I understand it correctly... ?19:36
joejaxxGNewSense is not the same thing19:36
joejaxxit is separate :)19:36
thoreauputicGnewsense is purer than pure ;)19:37
luisbgthoreauputic, can you explain more in detail?19:37
luisbgthe differences19:37
thoreauputicluisbg: I'm not really involved in Gnewsense directly, but gnewsense is trying to be completely Free in the FSF sense19:37
InsClusoe1.  Gnewsense is based on Ubuntu 6.06 (whereas Gobuntu is based on the latest version of Ubuntu). It is hoped that in the future the Gnewsense project will wish to base their derivative off Gobuntu or contribute directly to Gobuntu.19:38
InsClusoe2.  Gnewsense uses a separate repository, while Gobuntu uses the main Ubuntu repository.19:38
InsClusoeSource of the above info: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Gobuntu/Policies?highlight=%28Gobuntu%2919:38
luisbg<eddyMul> QUESTION: is there a guide to making my own ubuntu-derivative? (just a live-cd w/ my set of packages)19:38
joejaxxGnewsense also does audits19:38
buksAstralJava: thanx19:38
pixelpapstAbout Gobunut: this guy said it all: http://geekz.co.uk/lovesraymond/archive/taking-freedom-further :-)19:38
thoreauputicompaul ( Paul O'Malley is probably one of the people to ping about GnewSense19:38
thoreauputicand bbrazil19:38
joejaxxYes there is a guide to customizing the livecd19:38
joejaxxLINK: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/LiveCDCustomization19:39
luisbg<_MMA_> QUESTION: Will KiwiLinux contribute to Ubuntu package-wise? ie: will KiwiLinux fix bugs in Ubuntu to better KiwiLinux by proxy?19:39
joejaxxeddyMul: i hope that link helps you :)19:39
janimosure we contribute anything that is appropriate19:39
InsClusoeGobuntu says that all content that comes with the distro will obey FSF's rules.19:39
janimomostly bugs found while testing developing that are related to Ubuntu (one was last year when swap was not activated on the liveCD)19:40
luisbgQUESTION: joejaxx, what's the difference between fluxbuntu and Xubuntu?19:40
joejaxxluisbg: lol19:40
joejaxxits a trap!19:40
joejaxxok but seriously19:40
janimoif the user knows the bug is generic Ubuntu ist's recommended to file against ubuntu19:40
pixelpapstI don't think there is much difference in vision any more between gobuntu and gnewsense19:41
janimofor nonenglish speakers we have the kiwi bugsection in LP but it is not really used19:41
janimonewbies use forums mostly19:41
luisbg<eddyMul> QUESTION: follow-up: (maybe dumb): can you give me pointers about costumizing the pre-seed? (in case I ran out of blank CDs, but network bandwidth is abundant...)19:41
joejaxxone of the main differences between fluxbuntu and xubuntu i guess i would say would be the way we form the distro19:41
TuxCrafterjoejaxx: and a lot more19:42
thoreauputicpixelpapst: it appears from the Gnewsense mailing list that a lot of effort is being put into auditing licenses fro Freedom19:42
TuxCraftervision mission19:42
janimojoejaxx: also the choise of packages is a major difference19:42
joejaxxwith fluxbuntu we do application benchmarking and have a audit process19:42
joejaxxjanimo: yeah19:42
joejaxxand package choice19:42
pixelpapstthoreauputic: cool. we can all benefit from that19:42
joejaxxwe are also not using the same base19:42
thoreauputicpixelpapst: indeed :)19:42
joejaxxeddyMul: there are a list of preseeds i do not have the url handy but i can find it and give it to you :)19:43
luisbg<nosrednaekim> THANKS: to joejaxx for making such a fast distro.... saved many old laptops :)19:44
joejaxxwe are also always finding ways to improve fluxbuntu resource wise for example i patched Xorg so that we could have KDrive but that did not make it in for hardy19:44
joejaxxnosrednaekim: :)19:44
thoreauputicjoejaxx: yes, fluxbuntu is a nice effort! ( I have it here on a different partition)19:45
luisbg<TuxCrafter> QUESTION: i want to do a debootstrap and then install my list of packages and apply my list of patches and run my list of scripts and make ubuntu a ubuntu spin of this that is installable with via the usb network alternate installer19:45
luisbganybody brave enough to reply to that? :P19:45
tsmitheluisbg, well you seem to have it pretty much figured out...19:46
luisbg<joejaxx> QUESTION: When is Fluxbuntu coming out ? :)19:46
luisbgand yes... he asked himself19:46
luisbgit is permitted :P19:46
luisbgtsmithe, hey... haven't seen you around19:46
thoreauputicTuxCrafter: I made INX from a debootstrap chroot - but explaining how is a bit too long for IRC :)19:46
joejaxxthoreauputic: yeah that is an off classroom discussion :P19:46
joejaxxright now we have been publishing test releases19:47
luisbg<_MMA_> Really, anyone just looking to roll their own disk should look at http://reconstructor.aperantis.com.19:47
joejaxxand getting testing in19:47
TuxCrafterthoreauputic: if i can have a list of website resources that would be great19:47
joejaxxWe are not releasing anything for hardy but Fluxbuntu should be released hardy+1 and very polished19:47
thoreauputicTuxCrafter: there is a wiki page about making Ubuntu derivatives IIRC19:48
joejaxxwe are taking the time for hardy and hardy+1 development to really polish the distro19:48
joejaxxand fix things which users have provided us feedback with19:48
luisbg<TuxCrafter> QUESTION: you guys now the network alternate installer and that it give you an option list with all the ubuntu spins>? how can you get your spin in the list?19:48
joejaxxTuxCrafter: you would have to file a bug against tasksel but i do not know if it would be accepted19:49
luisbgTuxCrafter, that sounds mainstream and not derivative19:49
* luisbg wants more questions19:49
luisbgor should we start closing this?19:49
joejaxxwe have 11 more minutes19:49
joejaxxwe can take more questions if there are any :)19:49
luisbgif there are any19:50
luisbgnow or never19:50
joejaxxwell yeah :)19:50
luisbg<thoreauputic> QUESTION: Is anyone interested in fixing my bash scripts and helping with the INX installer ? *grin*19:50
joejaxxthoreauputic: i will :)19:50
joejaxxthoreauputic: just let me know19:50
thoreauputicjoejaxx: cool :)19:50
pixelpapstsomething i'm investigating: DeBaBaRe tools http://my.opera.com/atomo64/blog/howto-create-and-maintain-a-repository-using-reprepro-and-debabaretools19:50
mirrado<tuxCrafter> You should look at Debian make-live script19:50
AstralJavathoreauputic: Sure thing, I need practice with *sh scripting. :)19:50
thoreauputicthanks :)19:50
pixelpapstyeay, debian make-live kicks ass (although it was a bit tricky to use with sarge)19:51
AstralJavathoreauputic: Got a contact address/info handy?19:51
luisbgUbuntu Studio needs people documenting... any help?19:51
luisbg<TuxCrafter> QUESTION: what do you guys do if you rebuild a package with different settings than in universe19:51
mirrado<TuxCrafter> I have a script on LP that makes part of that job, but on top of ubuntu live CD19:51
thoreauputicAstralJava:  you can mail me at  inx-one@optusnet.com.au19:52
joejaxxthat would be hard to do without having a repo and putting a priority on it19:52
thoreauputicanyone elese interested may do so too19:52
joejaxxotherwise you never know when upstream is going to do an update19:52
pixelpapstTuxCrafter: set e.g. DEB_BUILD_OPTIONS, dch, debuild, and push to repository19:53
luisbg<TuxCrafter> QUESTION: how can we better work together with other distributions like fedora and gentoo19:53
luisbgHARD one19:53
luisbgthey have different packaging systems so that's complicated19:53
nosrednaekimI can aswer that.....19:53
joejaxxthe thing is19:53
luisbgnosrednaekim, go ahead19:53
janimoTuxCrafter: collaborating on speicifc issues would be more feasible than such generic and vague way19:54
nosrednaekimWith kubuntu, we are working with other distros not on packaging so much as apps and how to properly configure/build/customize KDE419:54
janimofor instance in the case of system=config-printer we collaborate with the fedora developer19:54
nosrednaekimor at least, we are trying to :)19:54
joejaxxTuxCrafter: they also look at LP believe it or not, this came up on -qa19:54
AstralJavathoreauputic: Just did. :)19:54
nosrednaekimso mostly we cooperate with appsand configuration, not packages19:55
pixelpapstQUESTION: do you guys keep disto-specific changes in version control ? if so, which VCS ?19:55
thoreauputicAstralJava: :))19:55
joejaxxAll of fluxbuntu's changes are on launchpad (which of course is bzr :)  )19:55
AstralJavapixelpapst: Ubuntu Studio uses LP together with bzr heavily.19:55
luisbglast 5 minutes19:56
pixelpapstwhat about packages that are not in BZR in debianb and ubuntu ?19:56
joejaxxpixelpapst: we try to have them in there19:56
joejaxxubuntu studio is in mainline ubuntu so that problem is not there much19:56
luisbg<thoreauputic> QUESTIONL INX is on Launchpad, but I have no idea about how to use it effectively - any help appreciated :)19:57
joejaxxbut with fluxbuntu we try to keep everything in bzr19:57
AstralJavapixelpapst: Only some that are prohibited as of licence disagreements or other such problems, are kept away.19:57
pixelpapstjoejaxx, AstralJava : could you each point me to an example branch ?19:57
joejaxxthoreauputic: i can also help in that area :)19:57
joejaxxpixelpapst: sure19:57
luisbgjoejaxx is the man19:58
thoreauputicjoejaxx: do you have an email address on launchpad I cn use to contact you, or something?19:58
AstralJavapixelpapst: https://code.edge.launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-dev/19:58
joejaxxpixelpapst: for example all of fluxbuntu's artwork is here https://code.edge.launchpad.net/~fluxbuntu-dev/fluxbuntu-project/fluxbuntu-design19:58
joejaxxthoreauputic: jjacksoniv@fluxbuntu.org19:58
thoreauputicjoejaxx: thanks again :)19:58
luisbg<TuxCrafter> QUESTION: how do you guys feel about packages that have far more dependency's as the debian counterparts?19:58
joejaxxthoreauputic: you are most welcome19:58
pixelpapstcool, will have a look around, thanks guys19:58
joejaxxTuxCrafter: with fluxbuntu this has become an issue19:58
TuxCrafteri wanted to install ubuntu-minimal and openoffice came alonge19:59
joejaxxTuxCrafter: we are going to try and fix this in mainline ubuntu and/or create meta packages to replace the ones that pull excessive depends19:59
janimook kiwilinux orl fixed in LP, thanks to the one noticing it19:59
joejaxxjanimo: :)20:00
TuxCrafterjoejaxx: so do a per package based investicion20:00
joejaxxTuxCrafter: yeah20:00
dholbachthanks everybody for an AWESOME session about Derivatives20:00
luisbgIt's time for dholbach and his "Debdiffs And How To Get Them Submitted" session20:00
AstralJavaCheers.  :)20:00
joejaxxright on time :D20:00
dholbachyou guys ROCK :)20:00
janimobye all, thanks20:00
luisbgthanks everybody for joining and helping in the session! :)20:00
nosrednaekimse ya guy20:00
dholbachfor those of you interested in derivatives make sure you join this mailing list: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-derivatives20:01
nosrednaekim*guys.... I can't type today20:01
pixelpapstthanks eveybody, cool to meet you20:01
luisbgthe floor is of dholbach now ;)20:01
dholbachand help out where you can :)20:01
thoreauputicdholbach: thank you20:01
dholbachOK, let's get started on debdiffs20:01
dholbachDebdiffs are the preferred form of submitting patches, developers who sponsor your uploads will be happy if you stick to that form :)20:02
dholbachif you have questions or I'm too quick, please don't hesitate to ask your "QUESTION: ..." on #ubuntu-classroom-chat :-)20:02
dholbachok... we need just a bit of preparation for this session20:03
dholbachcan you all please add something similar to these two lines to your ~/.bashrc (or .zshrc depending on which shell you use):20:03
dholbachexport DEBFULLNAME='Daniel Holbach'20:03
dholbachexport DEBEMAIL='daniel.holbach@ubuntu.com'20:03
dholbachI was informed that just setting DEBEMAIL to "your name <your.name@somedomain.com>" will work too, but I never tried :)20:04
dholbachonce you've done that, please either restart your terminal or run   source ~/.bashrc20:04
dholbacheverybody all set?20:04
dholbachgive me your +1 if you are20:04
* InsClusoe nods his head.20:04
dholbachthat's one - who's here for the session today? :)20:05
dholbachoh my... everybody's sleeping already :)20:05
WhiteEagleme ;)20:05
joejaxxi am here still :D20:05
dholbachDEBFULLNAME and DEBEMAIL are used by a set of packaging tools and will make your life much much easier20:06
dholbachnext we'll have to install a few tools:    sudo apt-get install devscripts build-essential wget fakeroot cdbs patchutils debhelper20:06
dholbachdevscripts contain a bunch of tools for debian/ubuntu packages20:06
dholbachbuild-essential is a metapackage which pulls in gcc, make and the like20:07
dholbachwget is used for downloading stuff from the net20:07
dholbachfakeroot is used to emulate "root privileges" during the build20:07
dholbachcdbs is used by the package we're about to patch (a set of makefile snippets to make writing debian/rules files easier)20:07
dholbachpatchutils and debhelper are needed too20:08
dholbachOK... we're all in bug fixing mode20:08
dholbachlet's suppose we got a bug report saying that the xicc package has 'colour' instead of 'color' in its description20:09
dholbachof course the bug report would be ridiculous and we'd close it20:09
dholbachbut just assume it for the sake of getting out debdiff together :)20:09
dholbachfirst we'd verify if this really is the case20:09
dholbach   apt-cache show xicc20:10
dholbachshows it's really "colour", so we'll "fix" that20:10
dholbachoh... also make sure you have a    deb-src    line in your /etc/apt/sources.list20:10
dholbachfor gutsy that'd be:20:11
dholbachdeb-src http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu gutsy main restricted universe multiverse20:11
dholbachreplace gutsy with whatever release you're using20:11
dholbachthen run:20:11
dholbach  sudo apt-get update20:11
dholbachnext we'll get the source package for xicc20:11
dholbach   apt-get source xicc20:11
dholbachit downloaded the following files for us: xicc_0.2-2.diff.gz  xicc_0.2-2.dsc  xicc_0.2.orig.tar.gz20:12
dholbachthe .orig.tar.gz file is the tarball the xicc upstream authors released on their website as-is20:12
dholbachthe .diff.gz is the compressed changes that are necessary to make xicc build in a debian build environment20:13
dholbachthe .dsc file is a description file containing md5sums and the like20:13
dholbach"apt-get source" used "dpkg-source -x" internally to extract the tarball and apply the diff.gz changes to it20:13
dholbach  cd xicc-0.220:14
dholbach  cat debian/control20:14
dholbachthe debian/control file contains information about the source package (which packages are necessary to make it build, who is the maintainer, etc.) and the binary package (the one my mom would install)20:14
dholbachyou can see 'colour' in the binary package description20:15
dholbachlet's change colour to color then20:15
dholbach  sed -i 's/colour/color/g' debian/control20:15
dholbachdid everybody get it working?20:16
dholbachnext we'll write a changelog entry to document what we've done - this is essential to what you do when you change a package20:16
dholbachin the Ubuntu world we maintain packages as a team, so if you change a package somebody else might come up half a year later and wonder WHY you did those changes :)20:17
dholbachso better get it right and document it in the first plafce20:17
dholbachplease run20:17
dholbach  dch -i20:17
dholbachthis is a nifty tool from the devscripts package that makes use of DEBEMAIL and DEBFULLNAME we just set20:17
dholbachthe first line contains the following items:20:18
dholbach<source package name> (<version string>)  <release of Ubuntu you upload to>; <urgency>20:18
dholbachwe can ignore the urgency for now - it's not relevant to Ubuntu20:19
dholbachsource package name is xicc20:19
dholbachwhat about the version string? what does it consist of?20:19
dholbachas we've seen in  xicc_0.2.orig.tar.gz  the upstream version number is 0.220:19
dholbachthe next part of it is the debian/ubuntu revision20:20
dholbach-2ubuntu1 means: revision 2 in debian, and an ubuntu change on top of that20:20
dholbachInsClusoe: right, that's true for packages where we do changes20:20
dholbachmost of the debian packages go into ubuntu unchanged20:21
dholbachso we stick to      <upstream>-<debian revision>20:21
james_wdogi> QUESTION: after 'apt-get source xicc' there wos a of 'gpg:' - messages is that normal?20:21
dholbachif we should decide to ship xicc 0.3 (if it was available), we'd name it 0.3-0ubuntu1 as it is not in Debian yet or at least our version is not based on the debian one20:21
dholbachdogi: good question: you can ignore that - it's just a warning telling you that you don't have the key of ross burton who happened to do the last upload of xicc20:22
james_w<Solarion> QUESTION: why the DEB* env vars instead of respecting existing data (e.g. GECOS field, username?)20:22
dholbachSolarion: I think the patch for devscripts to make it use GECOS fields has not been written yet20:23
dholbachhttp://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/pkgreport.cgi?src=devscripts indicates there's no bug report open for that yet20:23
dholbachit'd certainly be nice to have though20:23
james_wI think it falls back to the normal fields, but allows you to use these on top to change your identity for packaging.20:23
dholbachoh ok, good to know20:24
dholbachany more questions?20:24
james_wsearch for DEBEMAIL in man dch and all is explained20:24
dholbachgreat :)20:24
james_w<james_w> Question: what does the '-i' in the dch command do?20:24
dholbachjames_w: it inserts a new changelog entry and increments the version number20:25
james_w<eddyMul> QUESTION: how to use `dch -i` from emacs' shell?20:25
dholbachthere are other scenarios where you might not want to do that, let's assume you're working on a huge revision together with friends and co-maintainers20:25
dholbachin that case you use dch -e20:25
dholbacheddyMul: I haven't used emacs for years, so I guess I'm the wrong person to answer your question - I could just answer how you switch to a different one, sorry :)20:26
dholbachmaybe  devscripts-el  has some love for emacs20:26
eddyMuldholbach: it's minute detail. I'll survive w/ nano. carry on20:26
dholbachI'm sorry - I don't know20:26
dholbachI set  EDITOR=vi  - sorry20:27
dholbachok... back to our changelog20:27
dholbachnow that we've covered the version string, next is the ubuntu release we upload to20:27
dholbachwe generally can only upload to the current development release, which in our case is 'hardy'20:28
dholbachof course there's also "gutsy-updates" and "gutsy-security" etc, but that's something you can learn more about in tomorrow's session20:28
dholbachSRU/Security Updates (Luca Falavigna, William Grant)20:28
dholbachso we'll set it to hardy and leave the urgency as is20:28
dholbachas actual changelog entry, I set:20:29
dholbach  * debian/control: replace 'colour' with 'color'.20:29
dholbachnote how I refer to the file I changed and what I did with it20:29
dholbachas we're working on an (imaginative, granted) bug we'd add something along the lines of  (LP: #123456)  to that line20:30
dholbachto indicate: we fixed bug 12345620:30
dholbachonce the actual upload happens the bug will be closed automatically20:30
dholbachok... change done and documented20:30
dholbachnow we come to something our friends at Debian asked us to do when we change any Debian package20:31
dholbach(remember we changed it from 0.2-2 to 0.2-2ubuntu1)20:31
dholbachwe'll need to edit  debian/control  again20:31
james_w<Solarion> QUESTION: regarding numbering scheme, what if there's no Debian version?20:32
dholbachand replace20:32
dholbach  Maintainer: Ross Burton <ross@debian.org>20:32
dholbachXSBC-Original-Maintainer: Ross Burton <ross@debian.org>20:32
dholbachMaintainer: Ubuntu MOTU Developers <ubuntu-motu@lists.ubuntu.com>20:32
dholbachSolarion: good question - in that case we'll name it    0.3-0ubuntu1   (0 because there was no debian revision of it yet)20:32
james_w<eddyMul> QUESTION: what if we touched a bunch of files in patching it? should I still put multiple files? what would it look like? (e.g. modified debian/rules to have a dh_install, then added debian/install for list of files)20:32
dholbacheddyMul: there's no strict policy, but I prefer to mention all the changes I've done20:33
dholbachso if you have one big change that consist of changes in various files you could do something like:20:33
eddyMuldholbach: so, for my example, can you show me how you would document it?20:34
dholbach  * debian/control, debian/rules, debian/patches/01_frobnication.patch:  make sure frobnication is executed after configuration.20:34
eddyMuldholbach: got it. thanx.20:34
dholbachor something along the lines of:20:34
dholbach  * debian/control.in:20:34
dholbach    - Updated library dependency versions based on configure.ac20:34
dholbach  * debian/patches/01_lpi.patch:20:34
dholbach    - Updated20:34
dholbach  * debian/patches/90_autoconf.patch:20:34
dholbach    - Updated via automagic20:34
dholbachas I said: there's no strict policy20:35
dholbachif you're not afraid of getting a lot of emails, check out the hardy-changes list to see all the changes that are made during the hardy release and how they are documented :)20:35
dholbachback to the maintainer field change20:35
dholbachin  XSBC-Original-Maintainer:  preserve the original maintainer20:35
dholbachbut setting the Maintainer field to an Ubuntu list ensures that none of our users mail the debian maintainer accidentally20:36
dholbachthis was decided by all debian maintainers is understandable20:36
dholbachthe tool    update-maintainer   (also in ubuntu-dev-tools) does that automatically for you :)20:36
dholbachlet's document that change too20:36
dholbachdch -e20:36
dholbachsomething along the lines of:20:37
dholbach  * debian/control:20:37
dholbach    - replace 'colour' with 'color'.20:37
dholbach    - changed Maintainer field.20:37
dholbachwill do20:37
dholbachnow we're all set and happy with our changes :)20:37
dholbachlet's build the new source package (including .diff.gz and .dsc) for the 0.2-2ubuntu1 release20:37
dholbachplease run      debuild -S20:38
dholbach(for some of you it might complain about a missing GPG key - please ignore that - it's irrelevant right now)20:38
dholbachhttps://help.ubuntu.com/community/GnuPrivacyGuardHowto has more info on how to set it up properly20:38
dholbachall set?20:38
dholbachcd ..20:39
dholbachnow we have: xicc_0.2-2ubuntu1.diff.gz  xicc_0.2-2ubuntu1.dsc  xicc_0.2-2ubuntu1_source.build  xicc_0.2-2ubuntu1_source.changes20:40
dholbachtihs is the new source package for our changed xicc package20:40
dholbachif you now run:20:40
dholbach   debdiff xicc_0.2-2.dsc xicc_0.2-2ubuntu1.dsc  > debdiff20:40
dholbachdebdiff will diff the two source packages and write it to a file called debdiff20:41
dholbachcan you paste your debdiff into http://paste.ubuntu.com and paste the link here?20:41
ninkendoQUESTION: will the debdiff command only find changes in the debian/ directory?  Or does it scan the entire source tree for changes?20:41
dholbachninkendo: the entire tree20:42
dholbachgood work jcastro20:42
dholbachInsClusoe: you used my name in DEBEMAIL and DEBFULLNAME :-)20:42
InsClusoeThats the best way to survive any mistakes that I do in packaging... :-)20:43
dholbacheddyMul: xicc-0.2.orig/debian/changelog.dch.save should probably not be in the debdiff - make sure you delete it and re-run debuild -S + debdiff20:43
dholbachInsClusoe: hahaha :)20:43
dholbachgood work ninkendo20:43
dholbachwell done everybody20:44
dholbachour first debdiff is in good shape we're ready to get it reviewed and uploaded20:44
dholbachlooking good Yasumoto20:44
Yasumotothanks dholbach :)20:44
=== Pricey is now known as PriceChild
james_w<eddyMul> QUESTION: is there a way to have debdiff ignore some files (e.g. emacs_backup_files~)20:45
dholbachnow we come to one of the most essential processes in contributing to Ubuntu development: the sponsoring process20:45
dholbacheddyMul: you can run filterdiff on the debdiff afterwards or use    debdiff --exlude <pattern>20:45
dholbachbut generally it's better to clean up the directory and make the change as minimal as necessary and possible20:46
dholbachback to sponsoring: sponsoring means: somebody who is in the ~ubuntu-dev signs your changes with their gpg key and uploads to the build daemon20:46
dholbachhttps://wiki.ubuntu.com/SponsorshipProcess explains how it works20:47
dholbach - basically you either work on an existing bug and follow up there or file a new one20:47
dholbach -  you attach your debdiff (extra points if your changelog contains (LP: #123456) to fix the bug directly)20:47
dholbach - you subscribe either ubuntu-universe-sponsors for universe/multiverse packages or20:48
dholbach - you subscribe either ubuntu-main-sponsors for main/restricted packages20:48
dholbachafter a some time somebody will be in touch with you to review your patch and upload it once it's all good20:48
dholbachof course you wouldn't want to submit the colour/color debdiff, but do something useful instead ;-)20:48
dholbachhttps://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/TODO and https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/TODO/Bugs lists a lot of bugs to get started with20:49
dholbachmy personal favourites are:20:49
dholbach - bugs tagged as 'bitesize' (good for new contributors)20:49
dholbach - bugs tagged as 'packaging' (bugs are in the packaging, not in the upstream source code)20:49
dholbach - bugs that are fixed elsewhere (Launchpad has the nifty feature of indicating wether a bug is fixed upstream or in a different distro if you link to other bug trackers)20:50
dholbachthose bugs should be a good start20:50
dholbach<pixelpapst> QUESTION: how would get this diff into my PPA ?20:50
dholbachpixelpapst: you'd        dput myppa xicc_0.2-2ubuntu1_source.changes        assuming that you have everything set up according to http:/help.launchpad.net/PPAQuickStart20:51
dholbach<eddyMul> QUESTION: how to use LP to search for tags in bugs?20:51
dholbacheddyMul: the bugs should be linked from http://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/TODO/Bugs20:52
dholbachbut hang on20:52
dholbachhttps://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/?field.tag=frobnication    should work too20:52
dholbachhttp://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/GettingStarted should have a lot of the information I just covered20:53
dholbachbe bold, start fixing bugs, don't hesitate to ask in #ubuntu-motu or on ubuntu-motu-mentors@lists.u.c20:53
dholbachin addition to that we have a MOTU Q&A session every friday in this channel20:53
dholbachso there are lots of offers to help you get started20:53
dholbachmore questions?20:54
dholbachIf you like the event add your weblog to http://ubuntuweblogs.org (by following the instructions on http://ubuntuweblogs.org/submit.html) and blog about it or your progress on your MOTU Journey20:55
dholbachok... if that's it... thanks everybody20:56
shujin Thanks dholbach!20:56
dholbachI know you all can do it - hope to see you on your MOTU Journey soon :)20:56
Solariondholbach: thanks20:56
eddyMulthanx, dholbach20:56
dholbachhope to see you all tomorrow - the schedule is full with good stuff :)20:56
barccdholbach: thanks20:57
eddyMuldholbach: hopefully no schedule switches.....20:57
jcastrothanks dholbach!20:57
InsClusoeThanks a lot dholbach and all others who patiently explained the stuff and answered all our questions..20:57
dholbachInsClusoe: I had a great time!20:57
eddyMulwell, i'm off to start my day (here in US). c u all tomorrow20:58
shujinLunch Time!20:59
shujinsee you all tomorrow!20:59
=== PriceChild is now known as Pricey
=== barcc_ is now known as barcc
* xbisont is away: Ya me fuí22:05

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