[04:32] <o0splitpaw0o> Vorian: suppie
[08:35] <bb74_> hallo, schon jemand da?
[08:35] <dholbach> bb74_: most people speak english in here :)
[08:35] <dholbach> bb74_: and yes, there are 119 people around :)
[08:37] <bb74_> ok, now i've take a look at the time-table and will be back at 16h00
[08:38] <dholbach> 16:00 UTC :)
[08:38] <luisbg_> dholbach, what time is UTC right now?
[08:38] <dholbach> daniel@lovegood:~$ date; date -u
[08:38] <dholbach> Di 19. Feb 09:38:37 CET 2008
[08:38] <dholbach> Di 19. Feb 08:38:37 UTC 2008
[08:38] <dholbach> daniel@lovegood:~$
[08:38] <dholbach> "date -u" is your friend :-)
[08:39] <bb74_> ok, 17h00 cet
[08:39]  * luisbg_ has just learned a new terminal trick
[08:39] <luisbg_> yeah, thanks
[08:39] <bb74_> :-)
[08:39] <dholbach> ROCK ON! :-)
[08:39] <luisbg_> derivative session at 19h00 utc, 20h00 my local time
[08:39] <dholbach> I look forward to it
[08:40] <tamrat> just an idea: wouldn't it be good to prepare a question section in the wiki where people can already put their questions for each session, just in case they are not able to come - and might be good for the "speakers" to prepare their thing
[08:42] <dholbach> tamrat: if you figure out a good place to put them that should be fine - the thing is: it'd take some time to announce that change also I had so many questions in the sessions that I could barely answer them all
[08:51] <luisbg_> tamrat, if wiki questions had more priority or viceversa... it would be unfair
[08:52] <luisbg_> dholbach, in the sessions... how are the questions handled? who selects which one is replied and who has to answer it?
[08:54] <dholbach> luisbg_: carry them over from #-chat and reply to them one by one
[08:55] <luisbg_> ok
[09:03] <Unksi> luisbg_: the practises used are explained well here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDeveloperWeek
[09:03] <Unksi> be sure to have a look at there, you will also find the programme from there :)
[09:04] <luisbg_> Unksi, thanks
[09:05] <luisbg_> Unksi, need to know that for this evening
[09:05] <Unksi> youre welcome
[09:51] <phoenix24> Hi folks!
[13:11] <KEBA> hey, i missed this romm yesterfday :(, are the channels logged anywhere?
[13:11] <faulkes-> yes, see the UDW wiki page
[13:13] <KEBA> kay
[13:15] <KEBA> im too silly, i cannot find, do u mean thsi page: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDeveloperWeek/JoiningIn
[13:17] <faulkes-> go to the root of that page
[13:18] <faulkes-> each of the talks which has been presented have a link which you can click, iirc
[13:18] <faulkes-> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDeveloperWeek/
[13:18] <faulkes-> click on any of the links for the 18th
[13:21] <KEBA> thx
[13:21] <KEBA> some things are to easy for me
[13:46] <txwikinger> schedule @London
[13:46] <txwikinger> !schedule @London
[13:47] <txwikinger> !schedule
[13:47] <ubotu> Ubuntu releases a new version every 6 months. Each version is supported for 18 months to 5 years. More info at http://www.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/releases & http://wiki.ubuntu.com/TimeBasedReleases
[14:08] <effie_jayx> !now
[14:08] <ubotu> Sorry, I don't know anything about now - try searching on http://ubotu.ubuntu-nl.org/factoids.cgi
[14:09] <mruiz> @now
[14:09] <ubotu> Current time in Etc/UTC: February 19 2008, 14:09:18 - Next meeting: TriLoCo-Midwest in 10 hours 50 minutes
[15:05] <Solarion> morning dholbach
[15:07] <Tm_T> g'day kids
[15:07] <dholbach> hey guys :)
[15:07] <ups> hi
[15:07] <joshaidan> hey
[15:08] <sergevn> Heya
[15:09] <sergevn> only 51 minutes left :D
[15:09] <Solarion> time, I think, for more coffee.
[15:09] <jjesse> there's always time for more coffee
[15:10] <Solarion> no, I can think of cases where the time is insufficient for more coffee.
[15:10] <Solarion> for instance, if you're on a medevac team....
[15:10] <Solarion> "Can't intubate the guy now; need more coffee!"
[15:12] <sergevn> Solarion:
[15:12] <sergevn> lol
[15:12] <mruiz> ping dholbach
[15:12] <dholbach> hi mruiz
[15:14] <joshaidan> I could use some more coffee
[15:15] <Tm_T> dholbach: moi
[15:15] <sergevn> *slurp* aah
[15:19] <jjesse> looks like someone got there coffee
[15:23] <sergevn> jjesse: cup's empty already, refill NOW!
[15:23] <sergevn> jjesse: ;)
[15:25]  * jjesse pours coffee for sergevn
[15:25]  * jjesse pours coffee for sergevn
[15:25] <jjesse> there two cups should keep you busy
[15:26] <dholbach> we have some REALLY excited people here :)
[15:26] <sergevn> *sergevn's eyes popping out
[15:40] <dtolj> hi
[15:56] <dholbach> WELCOME EVERYBODY TO DAY 2 OF THE UBUNTU DEVELOPER WEEK!
[15:56] <soren> \o/
[15:56] <dholbach> I hope you all managed to grab a comfy seat and have your favourite drink ready
[15:56] <dholbach> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDeveloperWeek has the schedule for today
[15:56] <Tm_T> dholbach: no and no but better go ahead anyway ;)
[15:56] <dholbach> and https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDeveloperWeek/Rules explains how we deal with everything in this channel
[15:57] <dholbach> please keep all the chatter out of this channel, and talk in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
[15:57] <dholbach> if you have questions, ask them in #ubuntu-classroom-chat and prefix them with QUESTION: so they're easier to spot
[15:58] <dholbach> in our first session today, we have Søren Hansen, our Virtualisation king, long-time MOTU and a good friend of mine
[15:58]  * soren hugs dholbach 
[15:58] <dholbach> please treat him gently, we still need him :)
[15:58]  * dholbach hugs soren
[15:58] <dholbach> we still have two minutes, so lean back and enjoy the show
[15:59] <soren> Please keep the questions rolling in. I haven't prepared much, so any questions are appreciated.
[16:00] <soren> Here goes..
[16:00] <soren> Hi, and welcome to the first UDW talk for the day. My name is Soren Hansen, and I'll be your host for this session whose topic is virtualisation.
[16:00] <soren> Ok, first bit of generalitites about virtualisation..
[16:01] <soren> Virtualisation is a bit of a broad topic.
[16:01] <soren> There are various types of virtualisation techniques, each with the own pros and cons.
[16:01] <soren> Common for them all is that they enable you to split up one physical machine into what seems like many machines.
[16:02] <soren> KVM, which we have chosen as our preferred free virtualisation technology, does this by providing a complete virtualised machine to a socalled guest operating system.
[16:03] <soren> In a perfect world, the guest os (the operating system running inside the virtual machine) will not be able to (or at least need to be able to) tell that it's running inside a virtual machine.
[16:03] <soren> From its perspective, it's running in a regular PC.
[16:04] <soren> Other approaches are used by other virtualisation solutions..
[16:04] <soren> Xen for instance replaces the regular linux kernel with a so-called hypervisor.
[16:05] <soren> On top of that you can run specialised linux kernels.
[16:05] <soren> There's also so-called containers.
[16:06] <soren> They usually use the same running kernel, but keeps both filesystem and process space separate from the individual "virtual machines".
[16:06] <soren> There are a few others, but these are the most interesting ones.
[16:06] <soren> I'm ready for questions any time.
 QUESTION (for later, when it's time): can KVM handle irq generated by guests on may cores (compatibility with irqbalance), or do all the irqs have to be done by the first core?
[16:07] <soren> I'm not entirely sure I understand the question.
[16:08] <soren> Are we talking virtual or physical cores?
[16:08] <yann2> can I reply here? :)
[16:08] <yann2> yeah, physical cores, on the host
[16:08] <soren> (I BTW prefer more general, high-level questions in this session. I'd like to have a bit of time to research these very technical questions before I just blurt out an answer.)
 QUESTION  will KVM use my 3D graphics card? VBox and VMWare do not, yet.
[16:10] <soren> yann2: I'd really like to get back to you on that. Can we talk afterwards?
[16:10] <soren> newlands_: No, I'm afraid not.
[16:10] <yann2> soren > np :)
 QUESTION (yeah, 've got a lot, for later): KVM is in the kernel, so in main, so in theory supported by canonical - is it going to be supported even on processors with no virtualisation extensions (opterons 2nd generations, for example) with KVM running in QEMU
[16:10] <soren> yann2: I'm inclined to say it can handle it, but I want to check before I say for sure.
 QUESTION: Which is faster? Bare_Metal -> Xen -> Guest_OS   OR   Bare_Metal -> Host_OS -> KVM/VirtualBox -> Guest_OS
[16:11] <soren> yann2: No, we will not be supporting kvm running on CPU's that don't support it.
[16:11] <soren> yann2: In fact, it will soon be completely disabled for slightly different reasons.
[16:12] <soren> Shiv: I'm not sure of the most recent benchmarks, but I believe they're very close to each other for pure computational purposes.
[16:12] <soren> However...
[16:13] <soren> Hm...
[16:13] <soren> I'm inclined to claim that network and disk i/o will perform better if you're running Ubuntu Hardy inside your vm's.
[16:13] <soren> (in kvm).
[16:13] <soren> Due to the availability of virtio in our kernel.
[16:14] <soren> Next question, please.
 QUESTION: What is the ubuntu position for VMWARE products?
[16:15] <soren> Ubuntu -- which is a free software project -- has no particular relation to VMWare.
 QUESTION:  At this time is Canonical focusing primarily on virtualization for the enterprise?  Becasue of the viable options, KVM/QEMU seems to be the most laking on user-friendly management apps for desktop.
[16:15] <soren> I'm afraid to say much about the Canonical stance as I'm afraid to say something that is not entirely accurate.
[16:16] <soren> BadServo: We are indeed focusing primarily on server use cases for our virtualisation efforts.
[16:16] <soren> However..
[16:17] <soren> There are graphical utilities to manage virtual machines (virt-manager primarily) that should lower the barrier of entry for regular desktop users as well.
 QUESTION: Is there some way to convert VMWare virtual machines to KVM?
[16:17] <soren> BadServo: If virt-manager doesn't fulfill your needs, I'd love to hear about it.
[16:18] <soren> shujin: Heheh... I happen to know that within the last few hours, such a thing came into existence. It's not in any ubuntu package just yet, but stay tuned :)
[16:18] <shujin> \o/
 QUESTION: will Ubuntu provide tools to manage virtual machines? ( a la SuSE's)
[16:18] <jdstrand> \o/
[16:19] <soren> jdstrand wrote said script :)
[16:19] <soren> I'm not entirely familiar with what SuSE's providing in that arena? ANyone?
[16:19] <eddyMul> soren: I think you answered it w/ virt-manager. thanx.
 QUESTION: (continuation....my observation is that virtual_box is faster. But intuitively Xen should have been faster due to lesser layers in between!)
[16:20] <soren> That's not really a question, is it?
[16:20] <soren> If so, I don't know the answer :)
 QUESTION: Why was the KVM approach chosen over Xen?
[16:20] <soren> Ah. There's an FAQ if there ever was one :)
[16:20] <soren> Ok, there are a number of reasons.
[16:21] <soren> Most of it boils down to supportability.
[16:21] <soren> The amount of code in the kernel is very small and modular compared to Xen.
[16:21] <soren> Xen is a significant kernel patch, which kvm lives in a tiny module.
[16:22] <soren> (it's also significant that the kvm stuff is in the mainline kernel, while Xen isn't).
 QUESTION: how is time synchronisation handled? Are there going to be "vmtools"  for kvm?
[16:22] <soren> Also, due to kvm providing a fully virtualised environment the guests are running unmodified as well.
[16:23] <soren> yann2: I've not had any problems with time synchronisation inside kvm for months.
[16:23] <soren> yann2: Have you?
 QUESTION: How is KVM at running non FOSS operating systems?
[16:24] <soren> Don't know, don't care.
[16:24] <soren> Next
[16:24] <soren> :)
 QUESTION: how many cores can a guest VM handle? Can KVM use properly 4/8/16 cores (like not getting 2 cores killed while others are idle)?
[16:24] <shujin> fair enough
[16:25] <soren> 255 is the max, afair.
 QUESTION: while the kvm code in kernel is small, how big is kvm's patchset against qemu?
[16:26] <soren> eddyMul: Good question.
[16:26] <soren> Er..
[16:27] <soren> Well, kvm mostly uses qemu for it's excellent virtual hardwar implementation.
[16:27] <soren> What kvm does differently is that it passes code execution off to the cpu rather than emulatiing it.
[16:28] <soren> Which really mostly bypasses qemu.
[16:28] <soren> Or those bits of it.
[16:28] <mzungu> <mzungu ;) > QUESTION: What would be a reasonable setup with ubuntu on the bare metal, and vms with jeos - in terms of performance limitations
[16:28] <soren> THere's a lot of work going on to merge the two code bases, though.
[16:29] <soren> Well, part of the beauty is that you can start out by putting a lot of vm's on one machine. If they turn out to be too ressource hungry, you can just move them to another machine.
[16:29] <soren> kvm even supports doing this "live".
[16:29] <soren> i.e. without shutting the vm down.
[16:30] <mzungu> wow!
[16:30] <soren> It's impossible to say anything general and useful about it.
[16:30] <soren> Just remember that the overhead is very small, so if you've got..
[16:30] <soren> say..
[16:31] <soren> a 2.5 GHz machine  with 2 GB ram in it, you can assign 1 GB ram to a guest and a few GB of space, and it will use the ram, but share the CPU with you.
[16:31] <soren> ..so they will get CPU according to the host scheduler.
[16:32] <soren> If nothing in particular is running on the host, the guest will get the full 2.5GHz available to it (pretty much).
 QUESTION But in my testing Qemu has been by far the slowest virtualization. Is KVM faster?
[16:32] <soren> So if you have services that rarely run at the same time, you can have a lot of virtual machines on the same host.
[16:32] <soren> newlands_: Qemu is dead slow. KVM is near-native speed.
[16:33] <soren> They work in *very* different ways.
 QUESTION: can KVM guests use complete disk partitions from the host? How fast is the "disk format" of KVM?
[16:33] <soren> qemu *emulates* everything.
[16:34] <soren> yann2: KVM can use disk partitions (or logical volumes). No problem there.
[16:34] <soren> w.r.t. to speed..
[16:34] <sergevn> soren: Maybe irrelevant question, will there be an frontend for KVM for desktop use?
[16:34] <soren> Well, by default you use raw images.
[16:34] <soren> There's no mapping, decompression or anything slowing you down.
[16:35] <soren> If you're even using partitions or logical volumes rather than files, you should have near native I/O performance.
[16:35] <soren> sergevn: Yes, virt-manager.
 QUESTION: If i dont have a processor with VT (centrino duo laptop), is vmware server my best option to run XP? that is what I am using now
[16:35] <soren> sergevn: It's there already.
[16:35] <bigotto>  QUESTION: KVM: Can you exclusive use a PCI card in the guest? like a dvb-card?
[16:35] <soren> buxy: You could also use virtualbox.
[16:35] <soren> Sorry, that was for buks.
[16:35] <soren> Or qemu with kqemu.
[16:36] <soren> There are many options. I recommend you try them to see which fits you best.
[16:36] <nijaba> sergevn: please ask your question in #ubuntu-classroom-chat, prefixing with QUESTION
[16:36] <soren> bigotto: I don't believe pci passthrough is finished yet. Sorry.
 QUESTION: are you sure about that live migration bit? :)
[16:37] <soren> yann2: Truth be told, it might be broken right now and it depends on certain circumstances, but yes.
[16:37] <soren> yann2: The broken part will be fixed before release.
 QUESTION:  I know that streamlining the host OS on other virtualization platforms improves performance.  While Jeos is primarily intended for VMGuest appliances, would it be a suitable environment for hosting KVM?
[16:37] <soren> yann2: The design of kvm certainly supports it and it used to work (and will work soon again)
[16:38] <soren> BadServo: Sure.
[16:38] <soren> BadServo: You can also just use the server edition.
 QUESTION: can KVM "share memory" between guests (e.g. boths guests run JeOS, can they "share memory")?
[16:38] <soren> BadServo: The differences are very minor when you're not running in vmware.
[16:38] <soren> eddyMul: Not right now. *maybe* before release.
 QUESTION:  Are there any plans that you are currently aware of to fix the dependency issues preventing installation of virt-manager in the official repositories on Gutsy prior to Hardy release?
[16:40] <soren> BadServo: If I can find the time, I might backport the stuff to gutsy.. I much, much prefer testing results based on hardy, though.
[16:40] <soren> Which brings me to another thing:
[16:40] <soren> I could really, really use some testing of all of this.
[16:40] <soren> Any feedback (good, bad, indifferent) would be much appreciated.
[16:41] <soren> Feel free to /msg me on IRC, ask me in #ubuntu-virt, anything.
[16:41] <soren> I'd love to hear from you.
 QUESTION : xen + bridge-utils let administrators have a 'headache free' experience with the guest vm network, does kvm provide anything similar ?
[16:41] <soren> Not kvm by itself. libvirt does.
[16:42] <soren> ..but that distinction should not matter much to you, so the answer is pretty much "yes". :)
 QUESTION: testing stuff for hardy: If I want to help, do you have a documented test plan? (so I don't just go poking around like crazy...)
[16:42] <Ju> ;-)
[16:42] <soren> eddyMul: I'd rather not restrict the testing efforts in any way. Anything you feel should work in a vm, try it, and let me know if it works out for you.
[16:43] <soren> Well.. One thing though:
[16:43] <soren> I'm honestly not very interested to hear about testing results from Gutsy.
[16:43] <soren> If you're not comfortable upgrading to hardy just yet, you can run kvm from a live cd!
[16:44] <soren> (just don't forget that running on a livecd is probably quite a bit slower than your real system)
[16:44] <eddyMul> soren: it would be great to have a document about "if you want to test kvm support in hardy, here's how to start/boot"
[16:44] <soren> eddyMul: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KvmVirtManagerEtc
[16:45] <soren> There's a bit of stuff to get you started.
[16:45] <soren> If there are no questions, I can tell a bit about the software stack we're using..
[16:45] <mzungu> go ahead...
[16:45] <soren> On the host, we have kvm-60 in the kernel and likewise in user space.
[16:46] <soren> This is the most recent kvm release (at least it was a few days ago).
[16:46] <soren> On top of that, we have libvirt.
[16:46] <soren> libvirt is both a library and a management daemon.
[16:46] <soren> libvirt is mostly developed by RedHat.
[16:46] <soren> The management daemon looks after your kvm processes when you can't be bothered to :)
[16:47] <soren> You can connect to it, tell it to start up a virtual machine, and then disconnect.
[16:47] <soren> If you need to access the console, you can connect to it via vnc and you'll see the regular login prompt.
[16:47] <soren> For a GUI, we're using virt-manager (also from RedHat).
[16:48] <soren> It provides a snazzy UI where you can see the VM's that are registered on each of your nodes (you can do remote management as well).
[16:48] <soren> You can see how much memory they're using and all that sort of thing.
[16:48] <soren> ..start them, stop them, freeze them, copy to another host, thaw them..
[16:48] <soren> All sorts of cool stuff.
[16:49] <soren> We also have a little script called ubuntu-vm-builder..
[16:49] <soren> It can be used to bootstrap a new Ubuntu vm instance in no time at all (well, a few minutes, but it feels like no time at all).
[16:50] <soren> Not surprisingly, this was developed by Ubuntu people :)
[16:51] <soren> Aw, no questinos?
[16:51] <soren> questions, even?
 QUESTION: Where is ubuntu-vm-builder, I can't seem to find it in hardy
[16:51] <soren> jcastro: It landed just a few hours ago.
[16:52] <soren> jcastro: Hang on.
[16:53] <soren> https://edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ubuntu-vm-builder
[16:53] <soren> I'm not making this up :)
 QUESTION:  As an authority on Virtualization technologies, what do you think will be the next steps as far as the evolution of VM capabilities. or host interactions.  Since KVM is predominantly emulaiton based, do you feel mroe advanced paravirtualization will be less attractive int eh future?
[16:53] <soren> kvm is not emulation based, really.
[16:53] <nijaba> the version that just landed in Universe is broken for KVM at the moment.  Use my branch instead...
[16:53] <soren> I'll update ubuntu-vm-builder tonight to fix that :)
[16:54] <nijaba> thanks soren :)
[16:54] <soren> BadServo: We're employing several paravirtual sorts of things in kvm, too.
 QUESTION: can KVM do snapshots? multiple snapshots?
[16:55] <soren> BadServo: The virtio stuff is paravirtualisation. It depends on the host and the guest being aware of each other and their roles and thus make each others life easier and your stuff faster :)
[16:55] <soren> yann2: Yes, kvm can.
[16:55] <soren> yann2: virt-manager doesn't help you much in that respect, but kvm and libvirt both have the hooks to do so.
[16:56] <soren> yann2: It's got a few idiosyncracies, though.
 QUESTION: any possible future cooperation w/ rPath and their VM appliance stuff?
[16:56] <soren> yann2: (it depends on the disk image format to be able to save snapshots and such.
[16:57] <soren> eddyMul: Anything's possible :) Currently, there's no cooperation or even interaction (at least with me).
[16:57] <soren> eddyMul: We really prefer to have just one base OS on top of which people can put their applications if the so please.
[16:58] <soren> eddyMul: rather than having thousands of specially built OS's.
[16:58] <soren> That could change though.
 QUESTION:  With Ubuntu adopting KVM as the preffered solution, has there been any noticeable increase in interest or development?
[16:59] <soren> Well, one of the reasons we chose KVM was because it was already a *Very* active project.
[16:59]  * nijaba thinks that's the last question
[16:59] <soren> Qumranet, IBM, and Intel are all involved to various degrees.
[16:59] <soren> I don't think that has changed in either direction since we decided to use it.
[17:00] <soren> 1700 UTC!
[17:00] <dholbach> Thanks a lot soren and nijaba for hosting the session!
[17:00] <soren> Thanks for stopping by, guys! Keep those test reports coming in!
[17:00] <nijaba> I did not host anything...
[17:00] <mzungu> \o/
[17:00] <soren> mzungu: Thanks!
[17:00] <nijaba> But thanks :)
[17:00] <Ju> thank you
[17:00] <dholbach> For those of you who have more interest in Virtualisation, there's always #ubuntu-virt
[17:00] <dholbach> help soren to make Virtualisation ROCK for Hardy :)
[17:01] <dholbach> Next up is "MOTU Processes"
[17:01] <mzungu> thanks, soren
[17:01] <mruiz> \0/
[17:01] <shujin> thanks!
[17:01] <shujin> +1 even!
[17:02] <dholbach> first of all I'd like to apologize, we had to change the schedule a bit yesterday, so for those of you interested in Virtualisation: the log will be available tomorrow on the https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDeveloperWeek page
[17:02] <dholbach> also as I said before there's always #ubuntu-virt
[17:02] <dholbach> and soren is happy to answer questions all day :)
[17:02] <dholbach> soren: right? :)
[17:02] <dholbach> OK... here we go - MOTU Processes
[17:02] <soren> Sure thing.
[17:03] <dholbach> if you have questions, please ask in #ubuntu-classroom-chat and prefix with QUESTION: - I'm happy to answer everything related to MOTU, Ubuntu Development and Drum'n'Bass music
[17:03] <dholbach> first of all: What do MOTUs do and why should you care? :-)
[17:03] <dholbach> MOTUs are the Masters of the Universe and take care of ~15000 packages in Universe and Multiverse
[17:04] <dholbach> it's the first stepping stone for developing Ubuntu and MOTUs are a really friendly bunch of people
 QUESTION: what's the difference between ~motu and ~ubuntu-dev on launchpad?
[17:05] <dholbach> Riddell: ~ubuntu-dev includes ~motu plus ~ubuntu-core-dev
[17:05] <dholbach> members of ~ubuntu-core-dev are allowed to upload to all parts of Ubuntu (main and restricted included)
[17:05] <dholbach> the process for joining MOTU is relatively straight-forward
[17:05] <dholbach> 1. you contribute and get patches and packages uploaded by sponsors
[17:06] <dholbach> 2. you go back to 1. until your sponsors think you do a very good job and are tired of uploading them for you
[17:06] <dholbach> 3. you apply for MOTU membership at the MOTU Council
[17:06] <dholbach> done :)
 QUESTION: how many MOTUs doesn't ubuntu have?
[17:06] <dholbach> shiv_: Ubuntu could always do with more MOTUs :-)
[17:07] <dholbach> ~ubuntu-dev lists 110 active members
 QUESTION: how do you get people to sponsor you?
[17:07] <dholbach> and
 QUESTION: I have a patch in an LP bug report somewhere. How do I get it sponsored?
[17:07] <dholbach> that's what I wanted to get to next
[17:07] <dholbach> this process we call sponsoring: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SponsorshipProcess
[17:08] <dholbach> basically you attach your patch to a bug report and subscribe the ubuntu-universe-sponsors (or for main/restricted the ubuntu-main-sponsors team)
[17:08] <dholbach> they will review your work, test it, then use the patch, sign the source package with their GPG key, then upload to the build daemon
[17:09] <dholbach> http://people.ubuntu.com/~dholbach/sponsoring/ has an overview of the bugs that are currently sitting in the queue
[17:09] <dholbach> but we dealt with lots lots lots more already :)
[17:09] <dholbach> the process I just described just works for packages that are in Ubuntu already
[17:10] <dholbach> what about NEW packages? completely new, never packaged software
[17:10] <dholbach> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Packages/REVU explains how to upload your fresh and new package to a site we call REVU
[17:11] <dholbach> it will have to be reviewed and acknowledged by 2 members of ubuntu-dev, then uploaded to the build daemons, then reviewed by the archive admins who have the final say
[17:11] <dholbach> as we are in Feature Freeze right now, no NEW packages are accepted any more (only if they get a Freeze exception granted)
[17:11] <dholbach> so it's probably better to fix bugs to make Hardy rock :-)
 QUESTION: I want to help packaging games. Are there especific sponsors for especific topics or I can ask for help to any MOTU?
[17:12] <dholbach> mirrado: the ubuntu-*-sponsors team take care of everything
[17:12] <dholbach> mirrado: of course some teams do it differently and you can just tell somebody on the team to upload a patch you mailed them, but the generic process is preferrable since it does not block on certain people
 QUESTION: If there is a new Debian release of a package, containing only bugfixes, can it be merged during FF without a special exception?
[17:13] <dholbach> juliank: The process for that is explained at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FreezeExceptionProcess
[17:13] <dholbach> main/restricted freeze exception are granted by the ubuntu-release team
[17:13] <sistpoty|work> short answer: yes
[17:13] <dholbach> universe/multiverse freeze exception are granted by the motu-release team
[17:14] <dholbach> sistpoty|work: was my answer wrong?
[17:15] <sistpoty|work> dholbach: nope... but that allowing bugfix only releases (at least for motu) was decided just an hour ago (unless motu-meeting should decide otherwise)
[17:15] <sistpoty|work> ;)
[17:15] <dholbach> sistpoty|work: ah interesting - thanks for letting us know
[17:16] <dholbach> as you can see: our processes change every now and then, because we aim to make working in Ubuntu even more straight-forward :)
 QUESTION: OFFTOPIC: Do MOTUs have a life outside contributing to ubuntu? Is there enough time to do a day job and a MOTU's tasks?
[17:16] <dholbach> InsClusoe: absolutely
[17:16] <dholbach> the MOTUs who are here maybe can comment on that :)
 QUESTION: if I have a patch for git-core, and if apt-cache says git-core belongs to "main", should I subscribe ubuntu-main-sponsors to my bug? (#188218)
[17:16] <dholbach> eddyMul: exactly
[17:17] <dholbach> are there any other questions about "Joining MOTU" and "Sponsorship Process"?
[17:18] <dholbach> I'm happy if it all seems straight-forward to you too :)
[17:18] <dholbach> the question I usually get most is: "Do I need to know a lot of programming languages to become a MOTU?"
[17:19] <dholbach> I gave the answer so many times, that I added it to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/FAQ - let me quote :)
[17:19] <dholbach> Much more important than having a lot of progamming experience is
[17:19] <dholbach>  * being a good team player
[17:19] <dholbach>  * learning by reading documentation, trying things out and not being afraid to ask questions
[17:19] <dholbach>  * being highly motivated
[17:19] <dholbach>  * having a knack for trying to make things work
[17:19] <dholbach>  * having some detective skills
[17:19] <dholbach> I hope you feel encouraged :-)
[17:20] <dholbach> let's go back to Feature Freeze exceptions as that's the stage of the release schedule we're in right now
[17:20] <dholbach> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HardyReleaseSchedule
[17:21] <dholbach> they are generally necessary for packages that contain a new upstream version and for completely NEW packages
[17:21] <dholbach> later down the road to the release the upload queue will be frozen and all changes have to be ACKed
 QUESTION: I'm a selfish jerk who likes to work on stuff I care only. Being a MOTU seemed to involve doing stuff for other people, which, while noble, might be hard for me to do. Am I fit to be a MOTU?
[17:22] <dholbach> eddyMul: absolutely - we have people who work on their pet bugs and have a very narrow interest
[17:22] <dholbach> that's completely fine
[17:22] <dholbach> if people excel in a certain area I'm happy for them to create sub-teams and deal with things perfectly
[17:23] <dholbach> of course when you become a MOTU you need to demonstrate that you 1) are technically apt and 2) you know how to work in the Ubuntu lanscape and 3) are a good team player
[17:23] <dholbach> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/GettingStarted :)
 QUESTION: OFFTOPIC: is there a good example for making "live svn/cvs/git" packages? is there a better way other than repetitively taking a snapshot.tar.gz from the repo?
[17:24] <dholbach> eddyMul: at the moment I only know of https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PackagingGuide/Recipes/UseBzrAndBzrBuildpackage which needs to get some love
[17:25] <dholbach> the basic idea is to use helper tools like   bzr-builddeb  from your revision control tree
 QUESTION: Are the 15,000+ packages managed exclusively by MOTUs. Daunting number for ~100 people to manage.
[17:25] <dholbach> shiv_: that's one of the other favourite questions we get
[17:25] <dholbach> shiv_: we could always do with more people, but we also get a LOT of help
[17:26] <dholbach> a lot of contributors aren't MOTUs yet or just want to fix their favourite bug, we have upstream people reporting us to apply patches or update to a newer upstream version, we have debian developers who care about their package in ubuntu, etc
[17:26] <dholbach> the role as an Ubuntu Developer is often to be the match-maker
[17:27] <dholbach> you interact with your peers, with users, with upstream authors and people from different distros which is the number one reason for me to love working in the MOTU team: the people
 QUESTION: Does software package submission also require submission of test suites to demonstrate verification?
[17:28] <dholbach> shiv_: test suites are great and the future :-)
[17:28] <dholbach> check out "Writing Scripts For Automated Desktop Testing" by Lars Wirzenius on thursday for more info on that
[17:28] <dholbach> but it's not a strict requirement, that's more of an upstream author job
 QUESTION: How about introducing something similar to Dm-Upload-Allowed in Debian? - http://wiki.debian.org/Maintainers
[17:29] <dholbach> juliank: I don't know of any plans using it and currently are not sure which problem would be solved by that
[17:30] <dholbach> juliank: at the moment we do very well maintaining packages in the team, we all respect somebody else's expertise in a certain area and collaborate, also we don't block on certain people - maybe I've misunderstood your question though
 QUESTION: If a MOTU is interested in managing a set of packages, what kind of support is available via mailing lists, forums, etc to get notifications related to information related to these specific packages.
[17:31] <dholbach> shiv_: can you elaborate? which kind of support are you talking to?
[17:31] <dholbach> s/to/about :)
[17:32] <dholbach> once you upload a package to the archive you can use the Launchpad bug tracker and answers tracker for it - that kind of support?
 QUESTION: Notifications on uploads, changes to versions, original author putting a flag on LP so that interested ppl get to know....
[17:33] <dholbach> ahh, I see - well support for mailing lists is planned in LP, so you could form a ubuntu-frobnicator team and have a mailing list for it - does that help? :)
 QUESTION: I would like to know if for ex: gedit changed in debian, gedit bug got fixed in gentoo, or new sources of gedit got released on sf.net
[17:33] <dholbach> shiv_: ahhh ok, that's a nice idea
[17:34] <dholbach> for new upstream versions we use debian/watch files (see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PackagingGuide/Recipes/DebianWatch for more info)
[17:34] <dholbach> for all bug and fix related discussion we try to use Launchpad
[17:34] <dholbach> so if a user discovers a bug in gedit, we can link it to the equivalent upstream or debian bug and get notified if the status of it changes
[17:35] <dholbach> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/gedit/+bug/177710 is an example of that
 QUESTION (continued) is there any tooling support  or I collate the info actively and help percolate.
[17:36] <dholbach> shiv_: I'm sure that if you can come up with a list of requirements you see for that, the Launchpad developers would love to hear - LP is definitely the place for that information
[17:36] <dholbach> #launchpad on irc.freenode.net and launchpad-users@lists.canonical.com
 QUESTION: way.... off-topic: what's frobnicator? This is the 2nd/3rd time I saw it mentioned by dholbach.  (me trying to get the cult references....)
[17:36] <dholbach> eddyMul: I'm sorry - I'm not sure where I read it first but I know I read it in some book :-)
 dholbach: do you now if it will be possible to get device specific kernels supported in universe if i create a tested debian package for this device (eeepc
[17:37] <TuxCrafter> dholbach: im here
[17:37] <dholbach> TuxCrafter: so that would be just about a module you build?
[17:37] <Solarion> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frob
[17:37] <dholbach> thanks Solarion :)
[17:38] <TuxCrafter> dholbach: nope the hole kernel i want to take the ubuntu kernel source and use my own config file and build a optimised kernel for the device
[17:38] <TuxCrafter> and get it in universe
[17:38] <dholbach> I'm not sure the archive admins would be happy with that
[17:38] <dholbach> imagine a security hole in the kernel: you'd have to patch it two times
[17:39] <TuxCrafter> indeed
[17:39] <dholbach> best to discuss with the kernel folks in #ubuntu-kernel to see how they deal with kernel flavours
[17:39] <dholbach> to be honest I don't know their processes too well
[17:39] <dholbach> I haven't built a kernel in ages :-)
 QUESTION: how do I highlight an already reported bug in hardy as being of high priority imo. or do i just leave it and hope someone fixes it?
[17:40] <dholbach> hum... buks is not around in here?
[17:40] <dholbach> buks: you can always talk to the specific team in their respective team channel or on their mailing list and ask how serious they think the issue is - also asking in #ubuntu-bugs does not hurt if you really think it has been overlooked
[17:41] <dholbach> there are usually a few indicators for HIGH importance bugs like number of duplicates, number of subscribers and I think we our QA team does a good job tracking them :)
[17:42] <dholbach> these three pages are really important and should be your first idea when you can't figure something out:
[17:42] <dholbach> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment
[17:42] <dholbach> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PackagingGuide
[17:42] <dholbach> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU
[17:42] <dholbach> One process I want to talk about is the Sync Request Process
[17:43] <dholbach> syncing means: copy a source package unmodified from debian to ubuntu, overwrite our current source package and build it
[17:43] <dholbach> this means that if we did local ubuntu changes, they will be overwritten
[17:44] <dholbach> so syncing gedit 2.21.92-2 from debian if we have 2.21.92-1ubuntu1 is something we need to check carefully
[17:45] <dholbach> if we are able to sync (and the current timing in the release schedule allows it), it's good to be in sync
[17:45] <dholbach> so how do we request a sync?
[17:45] <dholbach> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SyncRequestProcess explains it, in a nut shell:
[17:46] <dholbach>  - you file a bug report, mention the changes in debian that have happened since the current ubuntu version
[17:46] <dholbach>  - state that no ubuntu changes will be overwritten (else we can't sync)
[17:46] <dholbach>  - state that you have built it locally and it works nicely
[17:46] <dholbach> in addition to that:
[17:47] <dholbach>  - if you're not a MOTU yet, subscribe ubuntu-universe-sponsors or ubuntu-main-sponsors respectively and let them ACK the sync bug
[17:47] <dholbach> the ~ubuntu-archive team then will deal with it
[17:47] <dholbach> of course this depends on the current timing of the release, if we're in feature freeze you need to get an exception for a new upstream version and so on
[17:48] <dholbach> also things like bigger transitions two weeks away from release is probably a bad idea :)
[17:48] <juliank> dholbach: There's also requestsync in ubuntu-dev-tools
 QUESTION: I don't know of this is the right time/place, but, If I join MOTU, I can choose to be a part of a motu team, but can I choose to be not a part of these teams or not?
[17:48] <dholbach> juliank: good point! ubuntu-dev-tools is good stuff! :-)
[17:48] <dholbach> polopolo: I'm not sure I understand: first you start contributing (in whatever area you like), then once your sponsors are happy with you you can apply for motu membership
[17:49] <dholbach> polopolo: if in addition to that you want to join say the server team or the dekstop team or anything else, that's completely fine
[17:49] <dholbach> MOTU is your onramp to ubuntu development
 QUESTION: Is there any page where MOTUs maintain a list of active maintainers of a package and is there any way to find if more contributors are needed?
[17:49] <polopolo> dholbach: but if I am a MOTU, can I choose to be NOT a part if these teams?
[17:50] <dholbach> polopolo: if you wish to leave a team, that's fine - it's your call
[17:50] <dholbach> InsClusoe: found it: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DeveloperResponsibilities
[17:51] <dholbach> it's a bit incomplete, but usually the maintainer field or the last uploaders in debian/changelog or the X-VCS-* header in debian/control will give you an idea who has a major interest in the package and who you can talk to about it
[17:52] <dholbach> InsClusoe: there are lots of packages that need love: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/TODO and http://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/TODO/Bugs should give you a good idea of what you can help out with
[17:52] <juliank> dholbach: VCS- is supported now, no X* prefix needed
[17:52] <dholbach> juliank: right... seems I'm a bit behind the times :-)
[17:52] <dholbach> thanks juliank
 QUESTION: Slightly off-topic. While syncing with debian, how does one ensure history of changes done in the ubuntu line is not lost?
[17:52] <dholbach> shiv_: if there are no changes in ubuntu worth keeping, we decide to drop changes to debian/changelog
[17:53] <dholbach> shiv_: Launchpad (http://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/<srcpkg name>) will store it though
 QUESTION: What to do if the sponsor says to you that he will advocate you for MOTU, but then does not (without any explanation)?
[17:54] <dholbach> juliank: best to talk to your sponsor about it again - if that fails you could ping a MOTU Council about it and let them mediate
 QUESTION: is there a minium age to be a MOTU?
[17:54] <dholbach> polopolo: no, not at all - I don't know who our youngest MOTU is
[17:54] <dholbach> I'd suspect 16-17?
[17:54] <dholbach> If we have a younger MOTU than that in here, please speak up! :-)
[17:54] <dholbach> the only things we really require are:
[17:54] <dholbach>  1. good track record of good contributions
[17:55] <dholbach>  2. good track record of actively collaborating with team mates
[17:55] <Tm_T> dholbach: IIRC 15 is youngest, though could be corrupted memory
[17:55] <dholbach> Tm_T: who? :)
[17:55] <dholbach>  3. showing that you know about Ubuntu processes
[17:55] <Tm_T> dholbach: sorry, there's the corruption mostly =)
[17:55] <dholbach> that's it
[17:55] <polopolo> dolbach: well, i'm very younger then that, but I wanna help ubuntu
[17:56] <Tm_T> polopolo: it's an advantage then, you have most years to help us ;)
[17:56] <dholbach> polopolo: that's excellent - I hope to see you in #ubuntu-motu on the mailing list and requesting reviews for patches of yours soon :)
[17:56] <dholbach> and that goes for you all of you - let me know how your MOTU journey goes if you're interested: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/GettingStarted
[17:57] <dholbach> no more questions? :-)
[17:57] <polopolo> dholbach: I am thinking
[17:57] <dholbach> excellent - thanks a lot for attending and thanks for all the good questions
[17:58] <Tm_T> dholbach: big thank you :)
[17:58] <dholbach> we have two more minutes until Tm_T is ready to rock the show and bring you Kubuntu love!
[17:58]  * dholbach hugs Tm_T
[17:58]  * Tm_T hides
[17:58] <enaut> Thanks to you
[17:58] <fredreichbier> thanks
[17:58] <jussi01> !life | dholbach you lie!
[17:58] <ubotu> dholbach you lie!: life is something very few people know about in this channel - and anyway, it's probably offtopic, perhaps you want to try #ubuntu-offtopic
[17:58] <jussi01> :)
[17:58] <dholbach> jussi01: pfffft
[17:59] <Tm_T> jussi01: you waited a full hour for that?
[17:59] <jussi01> Tm_T: I couldnt interupt the class...
[17:59] <Tm_T> true there :))
[18:00] <polopolo> QUESTION: Is there a possibiility that someone can help  to be MOTU
[18:00] <buks> QUESTION: off topic, seeing as the class has not started yet:) how do you do that reply to a person thingy in irc without having to type their name
[18:00] <Unksi> buks: press first letter and then tab?
[18:00] <coggz> Unksi: aha
[18:01]  * buks whee thanx
[18:01] <Unksi> yw :)
[18:01] <Tm_T> !tab | buks
[18:01] <ubotu> buks: You can use <tab> for autocompletion of nicknames in IRC, as well as for completion of filenames and programs on the command line.
[18:01] <coggz> how do you change colour
[18:01] <Tm_T> coggz: #ubuntu for support ;)
[18:01] <mruiz> thanks dholbach
[18:01] <coggz> no, irc text colour
[18:01] <buks> coggz: no colour!, the motd says so :)
[18:01] <coggz> okok, but u are using red
[18:02]  * Tm_T gets his party hat on
[18:02] <Unksi> coggz: its your client that does it
[18:02] <coggz> aha
[18:02] <coggz> sorry
[18:03] <Riddell> dholbach: sooo, what's the next talk?
 we have two more minutes until Tm_T is ready to rock the show and bring you Kubuntu love! :-)
[18:04] <dholbach> I thought it was clear from that :)
[18:04] <Tm_T> :)
[18:04] <dholbach> Tm_T and Riddell: thanks for being here tonight - the stage is yours... Let's all get ready for some hot K action :)
[18:04] <Tm_T> whee
[18:05]  * buks is panting and wagging tail
[18:05] <Tm_T> buks: behave, or you go walking with dholbach
[18:05]  * buks is sitting quitly waiting
[18:06] <dholbach> it's  Kubuntu  time
[18:06] <Tm_T> maybe I should introduce myself first: my name is Jussi Kekkonen, I'm fron Finland, been Linux user from early 2004 and messing with KDE and Ubuntu and their developers since late 2004
[18:07] <Tm_T> I mostly spend my time running "bleeding edge or beyond" apps and then complaining when they fail to do what I want, also doing a lot of user support and being evil IRC police
[18:08] <dasKreech> All hail the evil IRC police!
[18:08] <Tm_T> dasKreech: sshh
[18:08]  * dasKreech phears the stick
[18:09] <Tm_T> then something about Kubuntu: its the better, younger, more good looking side of Ubuntu powertwins, the KDE part to be precise
[18:10] <jussi01> QUESTION: Do you have any connection to the Education team?
[18:10] <Tm_T> I don't know what I should tell you more for it so questions please :)
[18:10] <jussi01> QUESTION: Is it true that KDE 4 will not be officially supported in hardy LTS, or am I just druk?
[18:11] <Tm_T> I do have some plans to edu side, but it isn't yet in full throttle, sorry
[18:12] <Riddell> Edubuntu includes KDE's Edu applications
[18:12] <Tm_T> Riddell: was it so that KDE4 and KDE3 both are out from LTS but the base is?
[18:12] <Riddell> there's also an Edubuntu KDE 4 meta package
[18:12] <jussi01>  < amachu> QUESTION: Why prefer Openoffice over KOffice in Kubuntu?
[18:12] <Tm_T> yes, KDE has excellent EDU applications, in both KDE3 and in KDE4
[18:12] <Riddell> and there are large rollouts of Kubuntu in eductional uses, Canary Islands, Georgia, Philippines
[18:13] <shujin> British Columbia, Canada too ;)
[18:13] <_Brandon_> QUESTION: i don't know if it is in topic but why kubuntu use ark instead of kioslave to open compressed files? :)
[18:13] <Tm_T> and more in the furure, when we Konquer the world
[18:13] <Riddell> LTS support: 4.0 is nothing like ready for LTS support.  it's KDE's "eat your children" release.  so 3.5.9 will be the commercially supported version for hardy
[18:13] <Riddell> but 4.0 will be the exciting new version that gets most publicity
[18:14] <jussi01> _Brandon_: questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat please
[18:14] <emilsedgh> QUESTION: will adept/restricted manager and other Kubuntu-supported projects will come in KDE4 version, or better to ask, will their Qt4/KDE4 version appear in Kubuntu 8.04's KDE4 version?
[18:14] <Riddell> amachu: there's some serious problems with KOffice 1.  it doesn't print at all well and it's full of bugs
[18:15] <Riddell> amachu: I expect that to change with KOffice 2
[18:15] <jussi01> < shujin> QUESTION: Should I direct questions about the KDEedu apps to the Kubuntu people or the Education team?
[18:15] <Tm_T> many new users just found OO.o more usable enough to be better this way
[18:17] <amachu> Riddell: Ok
[18:17] <Tm_T> emilsedgh: hmm, there's work being done, I'm not sure will it be ready for 8.04 though
[18:17] <Tm_T> Riddell: ^
[18:17] <Riddell> emilsedgh: restricted manager is now called jockey, there's a qt 4 version in hardy
[18:17] <emilsedgh> Tm_T: so which one we could expect to appear in 8.04?
[18:17] <Riddell> emilsedgh: mornfall is working on adept for KDE 4, find it in ~mornfall PPA on launchpad
[18:18] <jussi01> emilsedgh: please join #ubuntu-classroom-chat to ask questions :)
[18:18]  * Tm_T sips coffee
[18:18] <jussi01> < polopolo> QUESTION: is there any reasons why some of the self-devolped programs of ubuntu are not included at kubuntu like compiz etc?
[18:18] <emilsedgh> thanks, you rock, sorry jussi01, i thought its the place for that
[18:18] <Tm_T> shujin: I think Edu group might be better, as we can't concentrate much in to it currently
[18:19] <Tm_T> polopolo: being not stable enough to be included by default? IIRC Compiz isn't known to behave well enough in KDE
[18:19] <shujin> Thanks, I only ask because the Edu team seems a little swamped
[18:20] <Tm_T> shujin: all help is welcome in both groups :)
[18:20] <coggz> yes, compiz crashes very often under KDE
[18:20] <jussi01> < dennisv> QUESTION: Why is krita not installed by default in gutsy?
[18:20] <Tm_T> shujin: and I would love to help with it
[18:20] <Tm_T> dennisv: it isn't? I thought it is
[18:21] <Riddell> dennisv: space on the CD.  I love krita but it's a large app and the CD only provides a basic desktop
[18:21] <jussi01> Tm_T: no, it isnt. I would imagine because of size constraints.
[18:21] <Tm_T> ah, true
[18:21] <jussi01> < amachu> QUESTION: If KDE4 is not going to happen with Hardy, will upgrade be suuported for those who have installed recent Kubuntu release specific to KDE4?
[18:21] <Tm_T> I saw some list where it was included, too much reading lately to make me fuzz
[18:21] <Riddell> shujin: most questions about KDEedu apps should go to the kde edu developers, we mostly just package their software
[18:21] <Tm_T> amachu: it does have KDE4 already
[18:22] <jussi01> QUESTION: why does is seem like gnome is the more officially liked over KDE, when to me (coming from windows) KDE feels a lot more easy to migrate to thatn gnome.?
[18:22] <emilsedgh> shujin: #kde-edu is their channel
[18:22] <Tm_T> amachu: and we (atleast apachelogger?) is working for assistants to make moving from 3 to 4 easy and painless
[18:22] <shujin> Thanks
[18:22] <Riddell> _Brandon_: ark supports many more formats than ioslaves
[18:24] <jussi01> Tm_T: last question was from buks
[18:24] <amachu> Tm_T: Ok, Thank You
[18:24] <Tm_T> buks: GNOME has more resources in some way yes, because it has their release schedule sync with Ubuntu and other technical reasons
[18:25] <jussi01> < oloughlin75> QUESTION: Is 8.04 coming in two flavours? A kde3 and a kde4 as different install discs? Or will kde3 be default with the option to install kde4 or vice versa?
[18:25] <Tm_T> BUT many of those developers also help with K side, so, it's not they against us but we together hopefully
[18:25] <Riddell> "KDE4 is not going to happen"?  KDE 4 will be on our CDs and on shipit and be the exciting new feature.  the only thing it won't be is commercially supported.
[18:25] <emilsedgh> QUESTION: any plan to support bulletproof X for kdm?
[18:25] <Tm_T> oloughlin75: IIRC both install options will be there
[18:25] <Tm_T> emilsedgh: yes
[18:26] <jussi01> emilsedgh: questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat, then they will be relayed in here in turn. thanks :)
[18:26] <buks> Tm_T: I guess it also boils down to personal choice. I like KDE and will advocate it. A work friend (windows user) of mine commented that gnome looks like a toy with its big fonts and big windows. kde looks more slick
[18:27] <Tm_T> buks: true :)
[18:27] <Tm_T> buks: best we can do to fix this issue is to make Kubuntu rock most
[18:27] <jussi01>  < sahin_w> QUESTION: KDE4 will be preconfigured/customized for Hardy? For example: knetworkmanager start at login time... etc.
[18:27] <Riddell> oloughlin75: yes there will be two disks, so you can chose the one that suits you.  New and exciting or Nice and stable.
[18:28] <Tm_T> sahin_w: should be Kubuntified
[18:28] <buks> Tm_T: hell, I seem to be using KDE3, and thought it was KDE4, and I still thinks it rocks :)
[18:29] <Tm_T> buks: they do both ;)
[18:29] <jussi01> < sahin_w> QUESTION: Is there any plan to automatic codec install for Kaffeine just like totem?
[18:29] <Tm_T> Riddell: see sahin_w question, didn't we have that in Kaffeine?
[18:30]  * Tm_T has been way too long without "Kubuntu desktop"
[18:30] <regel> I thought Kaffeine playd all kind of stuff out of the box
[18:30] <regel> I didn't have to install anything to get DVB working
[18:30] <jussi01> Tm_T: Its in amarok, and so I would imaginf kaffeine
[18:31] <Riddell> sahin_w: yes, we added that recently to kaffine.  it needs a bit more testing but it should work
[18:31] <jussi01> < nemphis> QUESTION: How is the progress at hardy catchup? Will kubuntu 8.04 have the same features as ubuntu 8.04?
[18:31] <sahin_w> Riddell: Thanks.
[18:32] <Tm_T> nemphis: lot to do, lot have been done, I afraid we don't get all they have but close I hope
[18:32] <Tm_T> all help is welcome ;)
[18:32] <Riddell> nemphis: two desktops will never have the exact same features but all of KubuntuHardyCatchup is implemented pending bugs and testing
[18:33] <jussi01> < sahin_w> QUESTION: I saw the proposed defult ubuntu wallpaper. Why don't you create a blue one for Kubunu too? I mean: the same wallpaper with blue colors.
[18:33] <Tm_T> Riddell: installers does vary some features yet, right? ;)
[18:34] <Riddell> so we have bullet proof X (as much as ubuntu desktop does), automatic printer setup, a simple compiz setup tool, codec install, brightness control, xdg home dirs and user hard disk mounting
[18:34] <Riddell> wow, what a rocking community of developers we have
[18:34] <Tm_T> good :))
[18:34]  * jussi01 hugs Riddell 
[18:34] <Tm_T> Riddell: I'll catch those and update wikipage, ok?
[18:35] <Riddell> ok
[18:35] <Tm_T> sahin_w: we are not "blue ubuntu" ;) and also kwwii is the man you should bug when talking about artwork, he's our painter
[18:35] <Riddell> sahin_w: we take our artwork inspiration from KDE, since the aim of Kubuntu is to be the best KDE distro
[18:36] <jussi01> < dasKreech> QUESTION: Will KDE4 on hardy be pure or will you install KDE3 to make life easy?
[18:36] <Tm_T> or I could say that, "we can be better than just a blue brother of that brown one"
[18:36] <Tm_T> dasKreech: there will be some apps from KDE3 because those are not ready for serious use yet, kdepim for example
[18:36] <sahin_w> Tm_T: Well, good answer!
[18:37] <Tm_T> dasKreech: sufficient answer?
[18:38] <jussi01> < dasKreech> QUESTION: will there be a kubuntu3-desktop or a Kubuntu4-desktop ?
[18:39] <Tm_T> kubuntu-desktop and kubuntu-kde4-desktop if I remember these things right
[18:39] <jussi01> < polopolo> QUESTION: If I want something added at a package of kubuntu, who do I need to contact?
[18:40] <dasKreech> Tm_T: yup
[18:40] <Tm_T> polopolo: package maintainer and/or kubuntu-devel mailinglist are good startingpoints I believe
[18:40] <polopolo> Tm_T: ok, I should start with it, thank you
[18:40] <Tm_T> polopolo: thank to you :)
[18:40] <TuxCrafter> dholbach: i just read the transcript of packaging 101 and i have some questions
[18:41] <Tm_T> TuxCrafter: not here?
[18:41] <TuxCrafter> Tm_T:
[18:41] <TuxCrafter> is the session starting?
[18:41] <Tm_T> going
[18:41] <TuxCrafter> ok np
[18:41] <TuxCrafter> moving to chat
[18:41] <Tm_T> thanks :)
[18:41] <jussi01> < talavis> QUESTION: which Kubuntu CD (KDE 3 or 4?) will be available through shipit?
[18:42] <Riddell> polopolo: #kubuntu-devel is often more active than the mailing list
[18:42] <Tm_T> talavis: KDE3
[18:42] <Riddell> no
[18:42] <Riddell> KDE 4
[18:42] <Tm_T> awww
[18:42] <Tm_T> shame on me
[18:42] <jussi01> < shujin> QUESTION: Is there a KDE4 replacement for Kiosktool?
[18:42] <Tm_T> polopolo: yes, irc is always good for poking :))
[18:42] <Riddell> not 100% final that, but we like to ship new and exciting things
[18:42] <polopolo> Riddel: ok Tm_T: ok, I gonna go there
[18:42]  * dasKreech phears the stick
[18:43] <Tm_T> shujin: umm, I haven't seen yet one
[18:44] <apache|mobile> shujin: no, however there is quite some demand for it from what I noticed
[18:44] <shujin> I can't move forward without it
[18:44] <dasKreech> shujin: Tentaive for KDE4.1 You can sit out till then
[18:44] <Tm_T> shujin: poke upstream (related KDE developers) :)
[18:44] <dasKreech> It's like 4 months away
[18:45] <Tm_T> yup
[18:45] <Tm_T> KDE 4.0 is bit bare still, so I give most of my hopes for 4.1 and 4.2
[18:46] <jussi01>  < emilsedgh> QUESTION: isnt there any plan for something like GTK-Qt engine so KDE3 apps look like KDE4 ones?
[18:46] <Tm_T> emilsedgh: not that I know
[18:46] <Tm_T> correct me if I'm wrong
[18:46] <emilsedgh> so please include GTK-KDE4
[18:47] <Tm_T> jussi01: next?
[18:47] <jussi01>  < emilsedgh> QUESTION: any plan for nightly builds of KDE4?
[18:49] <Tm_T> emilsedgh: not that I know, not much use unless you do with trunk and that can be adventurous as it needs a MUCH work and packages done which can't be used with 4.0 releases IIRC
[18:49] <Riddell> emilsedgh: there is this, I've no idea if it does anything currently http://cgit.freedesktop.org/~ruphy/gtk-qt4-engine/
[18:49] <jussi01> < polopolo> QUESTION: Is there a list of plans to be included in kubuntu hardy? and shows it wich is done and wich not?
[18:50] <Riddell> emilsedgh: it would be cool though, helpers welcome
[18:50] <Tm_T> emilsedgh: yes please help! ;)
[18:50] <emilsedgh> its for GTK->Qt4, i asked for something like Qt3->Qt4, btw please include it
[18:51] <nosrednaekim> polopolo » https://wiki.kubuntu.org/Kubuntu/Todo
[18:51] <Riddell> emilsedgh: ah right, I misread the question
[18:51] <jussi01> < shujin> QUESTION: Any Thin Client specific improvments planned for this release?
[18:52] <polopolo> nosrednaekim: thank you
[18:52] <Tm_T> shujin: not that I know outside of "HardyCatchup"
[18:52] <Riddell> shujin: most of the thin client stuff is done by edubuntu, and KDE should just work on top of it
[18:53] <jussi01> < oloughlin75> QUESTION: Is the KDE3 flvaor of 8.04 going to focus as strongly on visual appeal as the KDE4 version?
[18:53] <Tm_T> oloughlin75: not more than normally, usability and reliability should be main targets
[18:54] <jussi01> < fredreichbier> QUESTION: Is it planned to tidy up and reorganise the KDE control center? I didn't like it in KDE 3.5 ;-)
[18:55] <Tm_T> fredreichbier: Kcontrol doesn't have active maintainers, so no, but that's the point of SystemSettings
[18:55] <Tm_T> (and IMO it's tidy already)
[18:55] <jussi01> < enaut> QUESTION: I have got a more general question: What are the similarities and where are the differences between Ubuntu and Kubuntu?
[18:56] <Tm_T> similarities: we have pretty much same dream (and same base): to provide the best operating system to be available to everyone
[18:57] <Tm_T> differences, well, we have just bit specialised to KDE, can't say about differences more in general
[18:57] <jussi01> < buks> QUESTION: a bit off topic, why is the .jigdo template for the daily DVD so huge (600MB) whereas the template for the CD is so small?
[18:58] <Tm_T> differences lie in differences of GNOME and KDE mostly, I hope :p
[18:58] <enaut> ok
[18:58] <Tm_T> I believe that Ubuntu and Kubuntu are the same, just bit different paint and chassis
[18:58] <toma> shujin, apache|mobile: i think i saw some porting effort for kiosktool
[18:59] <Tm_T> one more question?
[18:59] <jussi01> < emilsedgh> QUESTION: any plan for some public advertisement in near (2-3 years) future?
[18:59] <Tm_T> time is up
[19:00] <jussi01> Tm_T: you have 2 mins
[19:00] <Riddell> only if someone pays for it :)
[19:00] <Tm_T> emilsedgh: oh I hope so! that is discussed in marketing team often and well, so let's say "it's planned" but as Riddell said, money...
[19:00] <Riddell> so folks, Kubuntu has a great community and we want you to join it
[19:01] <nosrednaekim> and we have free beer....
[19:01] <Riddell> we need people to help with packaging, bugs, CD testing, coding etc
[19:01] <nosrednaekim> but you have to code for it :)
[19:01] <meven> QUESTION: kubuntu will be present at FOSDEM ?
[19:01] <jussi01> Thanks for coming everyone!!
[19:01] <Tm_T> all help is welcome, even if it's only user reports and testing, so there's no much step from every day user
[19:01] <emilsedgh> if you needed help on web stuff, count on me
[19:01] <Riddell> do drop in on #kubuntu-devel and start your free software helping
[19:02] <Riddell> meven: yes, I'll be there.  I'll be giving a packaging tutorial
[19:02] <Tm_T> thank you all for Kood questions :))
[19:02] <nareshov_> :D
[19:02] <nosrednaekim> thanks Tm_T
[19:02] <enaut> thank you for your answers
[19:02] <meven> Riddell: see you there then ;)
[19:02] <buks> thanx Tm_T, kubuntu rocks!
[19:04] <polopolo> and what's next?
[19:04] <luisbg> Ubuntu Derivatives Team
[19:04] <Tm_T> I'm sitting here for questions related to Kubuntu as derivative so leave now or I fry your brains
[19:04]  * Tm_T hides
[19:04]  * polopolo wanna know what that is
[19:04]  * janimo is Jani Monoses, here for the derivatives meeting
[19:04] <pixelpapst> by Luis de Bethencourt Guimerá
[19:04] <pixelpapst> is he here yet ?
[19:05] <luisbg> pixelpapst, yes
[19:05] <Tm_T> luisbg: are you here yet?
[19:05] <pixelpapst> erm, yes
[19:05] <luisbg> :)
[19:05] <luisbg> ok
[19:05] <pixelpapst> should have guessed from the nick :)
[19:05] <luisbg> are the derivatives representants in the room?
[19:05]  * thoreauputic is Peter Garrett, here for derivatives
[19:05] <luisbg> janimo? Tm_T ? joejaxx ? AstralJava ? any more?
[19:05]  * Tm_T is the Overseer
[19:05]  * joejaxx is Joe Jaxx
[19:05] <thoreauputic> to talk about INX
[19:05]  * AstralJava is Janne Jokitalo, here to talk about Ubuntu Studio and Fluxbuntu, if need be
[19:05] <nosrednaekim> nosrednaekim  here for kubuntu
[19:05] <luisbg> thoreauputic, nice!
[19:05] <janimo> luisbg: here
[19:06] <luisbg> ok...
[19:06] <thoreauputic> luisbg: hello :)
[19:06] <luisbg> let's start with Xubuntu
[19:06] <luisbg> janimo, presents us Xubuntu :)
[19:06] <janimo> huh :) ? it's a trap!
[19:06] <joejaxx> its a trap for me
[19:06] <joejaxx> lol
[19:06] <janimo> I was supposed to prezent kiwi :)
[19:06] <luisbg> ooops, mind glitch
[19:06] <janimo> no really, what should I talk about re Xubuntu?
[19:06]  * pixelpapst is here for Kairos, which is still in its infancy, so not much to present from me
[19:06] <luisbg> I ment Kiwi
[19:07] <luisbg> LOL
[19:07] <janimo> OK, I can talk about Xubuntu too if there's interest it;s just that I wasn;t prepared for that, and I do not know what the audience knows abiut it aready
[19:07] <janimo> Ok so about Kiwi Linux, here it comes
[19:07] <luisbg> :) go ahead
[19:07] <joejaxx> :)
[19:07] <janimo> KiwiLinux is a derivative of the Ubuntu/GNOME 386 LiveCD. That is the only available release.
[19:08] <Grazieno> I present Linux Preview (brazil)
[19:08] <janimo> It was first released one year ago and its main purpose is providing an even easier experience for newbies than Ubuntu.
[19:08] <TuxCrafter> hello everybody is the new session startign
[19:08] <TuxCrafter> hi joejaxx
[19:08] <janimo> For now its target are Romanian and Hungarian users but English is also supported.
[19:08] <janimo> The even easier experience comes from preinstalling stuff that either does not fit, not polished enough
[19:08] <janimo>  or which is illegal in the US but fine in Romania (and most of the rest of the world for that matter).
[19:08] <janimo> So the codecs, some ADSL modem firmware, pppoeconf GUI and ndisgtk and a slightly different package selection.
[19:08] <janimo> The changes are kept at a minimum, both because we do not have many resources to spend and it would be pointless to diverge too much.
[19:08] <thoreauputic> janimo: with a name like Kiwi I expected New Zealand ;)
[19:09] <janimo> thoreauputic: yeah, most people do that, it was not the most fortunate choice of name :)
[19:09] <thoreauputic> :)
[19:09] <buks> janimo: that is what i thought to
[19:09] <janimo> well it can be used in NZ, it has English support
[19:09] <luisbg> let's present all the derivatives in the room
[19:09] <luisbg> before we start with questions
[19:09] <luisbg> janimo, let us know when the presentation is finished
[19:09] <janimo> ok a few more lines then
[19:09] <luisbg> sure
[19:10] <janimo> The same package archives are used and an extra one at kiwilinux.org and the release schedule closely follows Ubuntu's.
[19:10] <janimo> Two important features make this a very close derivative:
[19:10] <janimo> 1) Since the archives are the same and only a handful of packages modified slightly it is easy to switch back to Ubuntu or vice versa.
[19:10] <janimo> 2) Once installed the system is not very to what Ubuntu would lok like after 30-60 minutes of tweaking a base install and getting the missing stuff.
[19:10] <janimo> So it is an Ubuntu that has many of the bits commercial distros like Xandros and Linspire have (codecs & stuff) but also remaining plain Ubuntu. Also unlike Mint it does keep the changes at minimum.
[19:10] <janimo> It eases the first time experience for total newbies and for experienced users saves some time when installing on friends machines.
[19:11] <janimo> Another goal is getting local people involved, who may contribute easier when perosnally knwing the devs (we have some contributors form the local LUG already)
[19:11] <janimo> as a first step toward becoming Ubuntu contributirs
[19:11] <thoreauputic> home page URL?
[19:11] <janimo> that's it in short
[19:11] <janimo> kiwilinux.org/en
[19:12] <luisbg> AstralJava, want to present Ubuntu Studio?
[19:12] <AstralJava> Sure thing.
[19:12] <luisbg> janimo, thanks! :)
[19:12] <AstralJava> Ubuntu Studio is a multimedia creation flavor of Ubuntu, aimed at people wishing to produce audio, video or graphics.
[19:12] <AstralJava> We have attempted to gather up the best open source applications and tie them together, so that users don't have to spend time tweaking their systems, but can concentrate on using it instead.
[19:12] <AstralJava> Highlighting some applications from each areas: Ardour2 & Audacity for professional audio recording, Gimp & Inkscape & Blender for high quality graphics editing, and Open Movie Editor & Kino for easy video creation.
[19:13] <pixelpapst> janimo, LP still lists kiwi.startx.ro as HP - you might wanna submit a ticket about that
[19:13] <AstralJava> For best possible resource utilization, we are shipping the real time kernel by default.
[19:13] <AstralJava> Ubuntu Studio has an active userbase on channel #ubuntustudio and on ubuntu-studio-users@lists.ubuntu.com, but you can find lots of documentation and other support means at http://ubuntustudio.org or https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuStudio/.
[19:13] <janimo> pixelpapst: yeah, thanks. Although that is redirected now to the new name
[19:13] <pixelpapst> k
[19:13] <AstralJava> To keep things short, that's it, let's talk more through questions.
[19:13] <luisbg> reminder:: questions will go after the presentations
[19:13] <luisbg> thanks AstralJava
[19:13] <TeTeT> AstralJava: is there a non linear video editor included that can load and save HD video?
[19:14] <luisbg> I believe Tm_T doesn't need to present Kubuntu
[19:14] <luisbg> he already did an hour a go :P
[19:14] <luisbg> thoreauputic, your turn!
[19:14] <Tm_T> luisbg: thanks :)
[19:14] <thoreauputic> INX is a small live CD designed to work without X ( "INX IS Not X")
[19:14] <thoreauputic> You can have a look at http://inx.maincontent.net . Ihave set up a "slideshow" showing some of the apps and how the menus look at http://inx.maincontent.net/album/1.png.html
[19:15] <thoreauputic> The idea is to give people an easy introduction to the command line, while simultaneously giving them a workable live distro that runs without X and showing some of the cool stuff you can do in tty1-6  / virtual terminal
[19:15] <thoreauputic> I also have written an installer script to install it to a hard drive, but it is fairly primitive - assumes a single hard drive, makes a swap and / partition only and so on...
[19:16] <luisbg> joejaxx, want to present fluxbuntu?
[19:16] <joejaxx> sure
[19:16] <joejaxx> :)
[19:16] <joejaxx> Fluxbuntu is a LPAE-standard compliant, Ubuntu-based derivative.
[19:17] <joejaxx> It is targeted towards older pcs, mobile and embedded devices
[19:17] <joejaxx> We use the Ubuntu archive as a basis for the derivative while keeping an audited seed list which is different then Ubuntu
[19:18] <joejaxx> We include lightweight applications along with a lightweight desktop
[19:18] <joejaxx> To keep resource usage down to a minimum while giving the user a feeling of usability
[19:19] <joejaxx> The website is http://fluxbuntu.org/
[19:19]  * joejaxx will leave the rest for the q&a session later :)
[19:19] <luisbg> any other derivatives pending for presentation?
[19:20] <luisbg> silence == NULL
[19:20] <joejaxx> :)
[19:20] <luisbg> OK...
[19:20] <pixelpapst> luisbg: i could say a few words
[19:20] <luisbg> pixelpapst, go ahead
[19:20] <pixelpapst> ok
[19:21] <pixelpapst> Kairos is a project i started ~3 years ago
[19:21] <pixelpapst> as a Debian Sarge deriv
[19:21] <pixelpapst> a kind of in-house distri tuned to the needs of multiple-users-per-workstation
[19:21] <joejaxx> :)
[19:22] <pixelpapst> over time, we pulled in a lot of backports, multimedia stuff etc.
[19:22] <thoreauputic> pixelpapst: URL ?
[19:22] <pixelpapst> to reduce the diff to upstream, we now choose a new upstream
[19:22] <pixelpapst> https://projects.yomu.de/kairos/
[19:22] <thoreauputic> thanks
[19:23] <pixelpapst> although that site doesn't have much info yet
[19:23] <luisbg> OK... last but not least...
[19:23] <pixelpapst> we have most tickets internally until now
[19:23] <pixelpapst> but I want to open everything up, even if it takes a little while :)
[19:23] <pixelpapst> luisbg: sorry, go on
[19:24] <luisbg> the Ubuntu Derivatives Team
[19:24] <luisbg> the goal of the team is unite to first:
[19:24] <luisbg> help each other since we are all going to hit the same problems while derivating from Ubuntu
[19:25] <luisbg> second: find very common problems while deriving Ubuntu and lettting Ubuntu know about them as a whole group
[19:26] <luisbg> third: extend the power of Ubuntu by making even better derivatives (specially purposeful ones :P)
[19:26] <luisbg> that's the Ubuntu Derivatives Team in a nutshell
[19:26] <luisbg> join in #ubuntu-derivate, or the mailing list (in ubuntu mail server) any time if you want to join
[19:26] <luisbg> launchpad team and wiki also help a lot ;)
[19:27] <luisbg> and now... the dreadful Q&A
 QUESTION: so Kiwi is like Mint?
[19:27] <luisbg> and try to say the nick of the representant of the specific derivative the question is about
[19:28] <luisbg> janimo, ^
[19:28] <janimo> yep
[19:28] <janimo> no, as I said it shares some of Mints goals
[19:28] <janimo> but tries to achieve the major ones with minimal work
[19:28] <janimo> most people want the out of the box multimedia experience
[19:28] <janimo> and what I do is have all those installed.
[19:29] <janimo> Mint has much more ambitions, it's a whoe distro+community in itslef
[19:29] <janimo> I try to remain 99% ubuntu (hence only a few packages are changed)
[19:29] <janimo> Kiwi artwork is similarly almost identical
[19:29] <janimo> so people using Ubuntu are familar with Kiwi and vice versa
[19:30] <nosrednaekim> janimo » ok, great. thanks.... think you'll have a kiwi instead of heron?;)
[19:30] <janimo> the mai reason for it was not creating a distro
 QUESTION: GNewSense is a Ubuntu Derivative, obviously. But how does Ubuntu actually look at it?
[19:30] <janimo> that was a necessary means of getting even more nebiews to  free software
[19:30] <janimo> nosrednaekim: we'll keep almost everything as in Ubuntu including the heron :)
 QUESTION: so fluxbuntu is a lot like OpenGUE, but more focussed on hardware compatibility?
[19:31] <luisbg> joejaxx, ^
[19:31] <Riddell> amachu: ubuntu works with GNewSense through gobuntu, which is intended as a base for GNewSense and other pure-free distros
[19:32] <luisbg> pixelpapst, make your comment
[19:32] <pixelpapst> ok
[19:32] <pixelpapst> i'm really interested in code sharing
[19:32] <joejaxx> i am not familiar enough with OpenGUE to comment unfortunately :\
[19:33] <pixelpapst> not so much came out of the HCT idea
 QUESTION: jamino: what do you use for your repository ? reprepro ? dak ?
[19:33] <pixelpapst> but dpkg upstream is discussion something similar at the moment
[19:33] <luisbg> janimo, ^
[19:33] <janimo> I use reprepro on my local bix
[19:33] <janimo> then rsync that to kiwilinux.org
[19:33] <pixelpapst> replacing source packages with git tarballs
[19:33] <janimo> pretty lame I guess :)
[19:33] <pixelpapst> i'll post a thread URL in a sec
 QUESTION: AstralJava: is Ubuntu studio KDE or Gnome based, and does it matter in a derivative?
[19:34] <janimo> I will consider a more mature repo with dput uploads in the future
[19:34] <pixelpapst> janimo: cool, like us :)
[19:34] <AstralJava> buks: It is Gnome-based, and it matters in creating a unified feel to all apps etc.
[19:34] <janimo> pixelpapst: :)
[19:34] <buks> AstralJava: Thanx
[19:34] <AstralJava> :)
 QUESTION: AstralJava: Does Ubuntu Studio have procedure docs which exaplains how to get certain tasks done which might involve using many of the apps. like to make a home dvd you need to do X Y Z, using apps A B C
[19:35] <pixelpapst> git source packages discussion: http://lists.debian.org/debian-dpkg/2008/02/msg00007.html and http://lists.debian.org/debian-dpkg/2008/02/msg00012.html
[19:35] <InsClusoe> For everyone interested in GNewSense, it's called Gobuntu after its 'ubuntufication'.  7.10 is currently available and for more info, check out https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Gobuntu?highlight=%28Gobuntu%29
[19:36] <AstralJava> buks: Not at the moment, no, but feel free to browse through all current docs at http://ubuntustudio.org and https://help.ubuntu.com/community/UbuntuStudio, and contribute if something's missing.
[19:36] <thoreauputic> InsClusoe: no, GnewSense is separate if I understand it correctly... ?
[19:36] <joejaxx> GNewSense is not the same thing
[19:36] <thoreauputic> right
[19:36] <joejaxx> it is separate :)
[19:37] <thoreauputic> Gnewsense is purer than pure ;)
[19:37] <luisbg> thoreauputic, can you explain more in detail?
[19:37] <luisbg> the differences
[19:37] <thoreauputic> luisbg: I'm not really involved in Gnewsense directly, but gnewsense is trying to be completely Free in the FSF sense
[19:38] <InsClusoe> 1.  Gnewsense is based on Ubuntu 6.06 (whereas Gobuntu is based on the latest version of Ubuntu). It is hoped that in the future the Gnewsense project will wish to base their derivative off Gobuntu or contribute directly to Gobuntu.
[19:38] <InsClusoe> 2.  Gnewsense uses a separate repository, while Gobuntu uses the main Ubuntu repository.
[19:38] <InsClusoe> Source of the above info: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Gobuntu/Policies?highlight=%28Gobuntu%29
 QUESTION: is there a guide to making my own ubuntu-derivative? (just a live-cd w/ my set of packages)
[19:38] <joejaxx> Gnewsense also does audits
[19:38] <buks> AstralJava: thanx
[19:38] <pixelpapst> About Gobunut: this guy said it all: http://geekz.co.uk/lovesraymond/archive/taking-freedom-further :-)
[19:38] <thoreauputic> ompaul ( Paul O'Malley is probably one of the people to ping about GnewSense
[19:38] <thoreauputic> and bbrazil
[19:38] <joejaxx> Yes there is a guide to customizing the livecd
[19:39] <joejaxx> LINK: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/LiveCDCustomization
 QUESTION: Will KiwiLinux contribute to Ubuntu package-wise? ie: will KiwiLinux fix bugs in Ubuntu to better KiwiLinux by proxy?
[19:39] <joejaxx> eddyMul: i hope that link helps you :)
[19:39] <janimo> sure we contribute anything that is appropriate
[19:39] <InsClusoe> Gobuntu says that all content that comes with the distro will obey FSF's rules.
[19:40] <janimo> mostly bugs found while testing developing that are related to Ubuntu (one was last year when swap was not activated on the liveCD)
[19:40] <luisbg> QUESTION: joejaxx, what's the difference between fluxbuntu and Xubuntu?
[19:40] <joejaxx> luisbg: lol
[19:40] <joejaxx> its a trap!
[19:40] <joejaxx> ok but seriously
[19:40] <janimo> if the user knows the bug is generic Ubuntu ist's recommended to file against ubuntu
[19:41] <pixelpapst> I don't think there is much difference in vision any more between gobuntu and gnewsense
[19:41] <janimo> for nonenglish speakers we have the kiwi bugsection in LP but it is not really used
[19:41] <janimo> newbies use forums mostly
 QUESTION: follow-up: (maybe dumb): can you give me pointers about costumizing the pre-seed? (in case I ran out of blank CDs, but network bandwidth is abundant...)
[19:41] <joejaxx> one of the main differences between fluxbuntu and xubuntu i guess i would say would be the way we form the distro
[19:42] <TuxCrafter> joejaxx: and a lot more
[19:42] <thoreauputic> pixelpapst: it appears from the Gnewsense mailing list that a lot of effort is being put into auditing licenses fro Freedom
[19:42] <TuxCrafter> vision mission
[19:42] <janimo> joejaxx: also the choise of packages is a major difference
[19:42] <joejaxx> with fluxbuntu we do application benchmarking and have a audit process
[19:42] <joejaxx> janimo: yeah
[19:42] <joejaxx> and package choice
[19:42] <pixelpapst> thoreauputic: cool. we can all benefit from that
[19:42] <joejaxx> we are also not using the same base
[19:42] <thoreauputic> pixelpapst: indeed :)
[19:43] <joejaxx> eddyMul: there are a list of preseeds i do not have the url handy but i can find it and give it to you :)
 THANKS: to joejaxx for making such a fast distro.... saved many old laptops :)
[19:44] <joejaxx> we are also always finding ways to improve fluxbuntu resource wise for example i patched Xorg so that we could have KDrive but that did not make it in for hardy
[19:44] <joejaxx> nosrednaekim: :)
[19:45] <thoreauputic> joejaxx: yes, fluxbuntu is a nice effort! ( I have it here on a different partition)
 QUESTION: i want to do a debootstrap and then install my list of packages and apply my list of patches and run my list of scripts and make ubuntu a ubuntu spin of this that is installable with via the usb network alternate installer
[19:45] <luisbg> anybody brave enough to reply to that? :P
[19:45] <thoreauputic> heh
[19:46] <tsmithe> luisbg, well you seem to have it pretty much figured out...
 QUESTION: When is Fluxbuntu coming out ? :)
[19:46] <luisbg> and yes... he asked himself
[19:46] <luisbg> it is permitted :P
[19:46] <joejaxx> :P
[19:46] <luisbg> tsmithe, hey... haven't seen you around
[19:46] <thoreauputic> TuxCrafter: I made INX from a debootstrap chroot - but explaining how is a bit too long for IRC :)
[19:46] <joejaxx> thoreauputic: yeah that is an off classroom discussion :P
[19:47] <thoreauputic> :)
[19:47] <joejaxx> right now we have been publishing test releases
 Really, anyone just looking to roll their own disk should look at http://reconstructor.aperantis.com.
[19:47] <joejaxx> and getting testing in
[19:47] <TuxCrafter> thoreauputic: if i can have a list of website resources that would be great
[19:47] <joejaxx> We are not releasing anything for hardy but Fluxbuntu should be released hardy+1 and very polished
[19:47] <joejaxx> :)
[19:48] <thoreauputic> TuxCrafter: there is a wiki page about making Ubuntu derivatives IIRC
[19:48] <joejaxx> we are taking the time for hardy and hardy+1 development to really polish the distro
[19:48] <joejaxx> and fix things which users have provided us feedback with
 QUESTION: you guys now the network alternate installer and that it give you an option list with all the ubuntu spins>? how can you get your spin in the list?
[19:49] <joejaxx> TuxCrafter: you would have to file a bug against tasksel but i do not know if it would be accepted
[19:49] <luisbg> TuxCrafter, that sounds mainstream and not derivative
[19:49] <joejaxx> yeah
[19:49]  * luisbg wants more questions
[19:49] <luisbg> or should we start closing this?
[19:49] <joejaxx> we have 11 more minutes
[19:49] <joejaxx> we can take more questions if there are any :)
[19:50] <luisbg> if there are any
[19:50] <luisbg> now or never
[19:50] <joejaxx> well yeah :)
 QUESTION: Is anyone interested in fixing my bash scripts and helping with the INX installer ? *grin*
[19:50] <joejaxx> thoreauputic: i will :)
[19:50] <joejaxx> thoreauputic: just let me know
[19:50] <thoreauputic> joejaxx: cool :)
[19:50] <pixelpapst> something i'm investigating: DeBaBaRe tools http://my.opera.com/atomo64/blog/howto-create-and-maintain-a-repository-using-reprepro-and-debabaretools
 You should look at Debian make-live script
[19:50] <AstralJava> thoreauputic: Sure thing, I need practice with *sh scripting. :)
[19:50] <thoreauputic> thanks :)
[19:51] <pixelpapst> yeay, debian make-live kicks ass (although it was a bit tricky to use with sarge)
[19:51] <AstralJava> thoreauputic: Got a contact address/info handy?
[19:51] <luisbg> Ubuntu Studio needs people documenting... any help?
 QUESTION: what do you guys do if you rebuild a package with different settings than in universe
 I have a script on LP that makes part of that job, but on top of ubuntu live CD
[19:52] <joejaxx> oh
[19:52] <joejaxx> hmm
[19:52] <thoreauputic> AstralJava:  you can mail me at  inx-one@optusnet.com.au
[19:52] <joejaxx> that would be hard to do without having a repo and putting a priority on it
[19:52] <thoreauputic> anyone elese interested may do so too
[19:52] <joejaxx> otherwise you never know when upstream is going to do an update
[19:53] <pixelpapst> TuxCrafter: set e.g. DEB_BUILD_OPTIONS, dch, debuild, and push to repository
 QUESTION: how can we better work together with other distributions like fedora and gentoo
[19:53] <luisbg> HARD one
[19:53] <luisbg> they have different packaging systems so that's complicated
[19:53] <joejaxx> well
[19:53] <nosrednaekim> I can aswer that.....
[19:53] <joejaxx> the thing is
[19:53] <luisbg> nosrednaekim, go ahead
[19:53] <joejaxx> ok
[19:54] <janimo> TuxCrafter: collaborating on speicifc issues would be more feasible than such generic and vague way
[19:54] <nosrednaekim> With kubuntu, we are working with other distros not on packaging so much as apps and how to properly configure/build/customize KDE4
[19:54] <janimo> for instance in the case of system=config-printer we collaborate with the fedora developer
[19:54] <nosrednaekim> or at least, we are trying to :)
[19:54] <joejaxx> TuxCrafter: they also look at LP believe it or not, this came up on -qa
[19:54] <AstralJava> thoreauputic: Just did. :)
[19:55] <nosrednaekim> so mostly we cooperate with appsand configuration, not packages
[19:55] <pixelpapst> QUESTION: do you guys keep disto-specific changes in version control ? if so, which VCS ?
[19:55] <thoreauputic> AstralJava: :))
[19:55] <joejaxx> All of fluxbuntu's changes are on launchpad (which of course is bzr :)  )
[19:55] <AstralJava> pixelpapst: Ubuntu Studio uses LP together with bzr heavily.
[19:55] <joejaxx> same
[19:56] <luisbg> last 5 minutes
[19:56] <pixelpapst> what about packages that are not in BZR in debianb and ubuntu ?
[19:56] <joejaxx> pixelpapst: we try to have them in there
[19:56] <pixelpapst> cool
[19:56] <joejaxx> ubuntu studio is in mainline ubuntu so that problem is not there much
 QUESTIONL INX is on Launchpad, but I have no idea about how to use it effectively - any help appreciated :)
[19:57] <joejaxx> but with fluxbuntu we try to keep everything in bzr
[19:57] <AstralJava> pixelpapst: Only some that are prohibited as of licence disagreements or other such problems, are kept away.
[19:57] <pixelpapst> joejaxx, AstralJava : could you each point me to an example branch ?
[19:57] <joejaxx> thoreauputic: i can also help in that area :)
[19:57] <joejaxx> pixelpapst: sure
[19:58] <luisbg> joejaxx is the man
[19:58] <thoreauputic> joejaxx: do you have an email address on launchpad I cn use to contact you, or something?
[19:58] <AstralJava> pixelpapst: https://code.edge.launchpad.net/~ubuntustudio-dev/
[19:58] <joejaxx> pixelpapst: for example all of fluxbuntu's artwork is here https://code.edge.launchpad.net/~fluxbuntu-dev/fluxbuntu-project/fluxbuntu-design
[19:58] <joejaxx> thoreauputic: jjacksoniv@fluxbuntu.org
[19:58] <thoreauputic> joejaxx: thanks again :)
 QUESTION: how do you guys feel about packages that have far more dependency's as the debian counterparts?
[19:58] <joejaxx> thoreauputic: you are most welcome
[19:58] <pixelpapst> cool, will have a look around, thanks guys
[19:58] <joejaxx> TuxCrafter: with fluxbuntu this has become an issue
[19:59] <TuxCrafter> i wanted to install ubuntu-minimal and openoffice came alonge
[19:59] <joejaxx> TuxCrafter: we are going to try and fix this in mainline ubuntu and/or create meta packages to replace the ones that pull excessive depends
[19:59] <joejaxx> alright
[19:59] <janimo> ok kiwilinux orl fixed in LP, thanks to the one noticing it
[19:59] <janimo> url
[20:00] <joejaxx> janimo: :)
[20:00] <TuxCrafter> joejaxx: so do a per package based investicion
[20:00] <joejaxx> TuxCrafter: yeah
[20:00] <dholbach> thanks everybody for an AWESOME session about Derivatives
[20:00] <luisbg> It's time for dholbach and his "Debdiffs And How To Get Them Submitted" session
[20:00] <joejaxx> ;)
[20:00] <AstralJava> Cheers.  :)
[20:00] <joejaxx> right on time :D
[20:00] <dholbach> you guys ROCK :)
[20:00] <janimo> bye all, thanks
[20:00] <luisbg> thanks everybody for joining and helping in the session! :)
[20:00] <nosrednaekim> se ya guy
[20:01] <dholbach> for those of you interested in derivatives make sure you join this mailing list: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-derivatives
[20:01] <nosrednaekim> *guys.... I can't type today
[20:01] <pixelpapst> thanks eveybody, cool to meet you
[20:01] <luisbg> the floor is of dholbach now ;)
[20:01] <dholbach> and help out where you can :)
[20:01] <thoreauputic> dholbach: thank you
[20:01] <dholbach> OK, let's get started on debdiffs
[20:02] <dholbach> Debdiffs are the preferred form of submitting patches, developers who sponsor your uploads will be happy if you stick to that form :)
[20:02] <dholbach> if you have questions or I'm too quick, please don't hesitate to ask your "QUESTION: ..." on #ubuntu-classroom-chat :-)
[20:03] <dholbach> ok... we need just a bit of preparation for this session
[20:03] <dholbach> can you all please add something similar to these two lines to your ~/.bashrc (or .zshrc depending on which shell you use):
[20:03] <dholbach> export DEBFULLNAME='Daniel Holbach'
[20:03] <dholbach> export DEBEMAIL='daniel.holbach@ubuntu.com'
[20:04] <dholbach> I was informed that just setting DEBEMAIL to "your name <your.name@somedomain.com>" will work too, but I never tried :)
[20:04] <dholbach> once you've done that, please either restart your terminal or run   source ~/.bashrc
[20:04] <dholbach> everybody all set?
[20:04] <dholbach> give me your +1 if you are
[20:04]  * InsClusoe nods his head.
[20:05] <InsClusoe> +1
[20:05] <dholbach> that's one - who's here for the session today? :)
[20:05] <jcastro> me!
[20:05] <dholbach> oh my... everybody's sleeping already :)
[20:05] <ninkendo> me!
[20:05] <WhiteEagle> me ;)
[20:05] <joejaxx> i am here still :D
[20:05] <dustinlange> +1
[20:05] <eddyMul> me
[20:05] <dholbach> excellent
[20:06] <dholbach> DEBFULLNAME and DEBEMAIL are used by a set of packaging tools and will make your life much much easier
[20:06] <dholbach> next we'll have to install a few tools:    sudo apt-get install devscripts build-essential wget fakeroot cdbs patchutils debhelper
[20:06] <dholbach> devscripts contain a bunch of tools for debian/ubuntu packages
[20:07] <dholbach> build-essential is a metapackage which pulls in gcc, make and the like
[20:07] <dholbach> wget is used for downloading stuff from the net
[20:07] <dholbach> fakeroot is used to emulate "root privileges" during the build
[20:07] <dholbach> cdbs is used by the package we're about to patch (a set of makefile snippets to make writing debian/rules files easier)
[20:08] <dholbach> patchutils and debhelper are needed too
[20:08] <dholbach> OK... we're all in bug fixing mode
[20:09] <TuxCrafter> +1
[20:09] <dholbach> let's suppose we got a bug report saying that the xicc package has 'colour' instead of 'color' in its description
[20:09] <dholbach> of course the bug report would be ridiculous and we'd close it
[20:09] <dholbach> but just assume it for the sake of getting out debdiff together :)
[20:09] <dholbach> first we'd verify if this really is the case
[20:10] <dholbach>    apt-cache show xicc
[20:10] <dholbach> shows it's really "colour", so we'll "fix" that
[20:10] <dholbach> oh... also make sure you have a    deb-src    line in your /etc/apt/sources.list
[20:11] <dholbach> for gutsy that'd be:
[20:11] <dholbach> deb-src http://archive.ubuntu.com/ubuntu gutsy main restricted universe multiverse
[20:11] <dholbach> replace gutsy with whatever release you're using
[20:11] <dholbach> then run:
[20:11] <dholbach>   sudo apt-get update
[20:11] <dholbach> next we'll get the source package for xicc
[20:11] <dholbach>    apt-get source xicc
[20:12] <dholbach> it downloaded the following files for us: xicc_0.2-2.diff.gz  xicc_0.2-2.dsc  xicc_0.2.orig.tar.gz
[20:12] <dholbach> the .orig.tar.gz file is the tarball the xicc upstream authors released on their website as-is
[20:13] <dholbach> the .diff.gz is the compressed changes that are necessary to make xicc build in a debian build environment
[20:13] <dholbach> the .dsc file is a description file containing md5sums and the like
[20:13] <dholbach> "apt-get source" used "dpkg-source -x" internally to extract the tarball and apply the diff.gz changes to it
[20:14] <dholbach>   cd xicc-0.2
[20:14] <dholbach>   cat debian/control
[20:14] <dholbach> the debian/control file contains information about the source package (which packages are necessary to make it build, who is the maintainer, etc.) and the binary package (the one my mom would install)
[20:15] <dholbach> you can see 'colour' in the binary package description
[20:15] <dholbach> let's change colour to color then
[20:15] <dholbach>   sed -i 's/colour/color/g' debian/control
[20:15] <InsClusoe> +1
[20:16] <dholbach> did everybody get it working?
[20:16] <jcastro> yep
[20:16] <ninkendo> yep
[20:16] <Yasumoto> +1
[20:16] <dholbach> brilliant
[20:16] <joumetal> +1
[20:16] <barcc> +1
[20:16] <dholbach> next we'll write a changelog entry to document what we've done - this is essential to what you do when you change a package
[20:17] <TuxCrafter> +1
[20:17] <dholbach> in the Ubuntu world we maintain packages as a team, so if you change a package somebody else might come up half a year later and wonder WHY you did those changes :)
[20:17] <dholbach> so better get it right and document it in the first plafce
[20:17] <dholbach> place
[20:17] <dholbach> please run
[20:17] <dholbach>   dch -i
[20:17] <dholbach> this is a nifty tool from the devscripts package that makes use of DEBEMAIL and DEBFULLNAME we just set
[20:18] <dholbach> the first line contains the following items:
[20:18] <dholbach> <source package name> (<version string>)  <release of Ubuntu you upload to>; <urgency>
[20:19] <dholbach> we can ignore the urgency for now - it's not relevant to Ubuntu
[20:19] <dholbach> source package name is xicc
[20:19] <dholbach> what about the version string? what does it consist of?
[20:19] <dholbach> as we've seen in  xicc_0.2.orig.tar.gz  the upstream version number is 0.2
[20:20] <dholbach> the next part of it is the debian/ubuntu revision

[20:20] <dholbach> -2ubuntu1 means: revision 2 in debian, and an ubuntu change on top of that
[20:20] <dholbach> InsClusoe: right, that's true for packages where we do changes
[20:21] <dholbach> most of the debian packages go into ubuntu unchanged
[20:21] <dholbach> so we stick to      <upstream>-<debian revision>
[20:21] <james_w> dogi> QUESTION: after 'apt-get source xicc' there wos a of 'gpg:' - messages is that normal?
[20:21] <dholbach> if we should decide to ship xicc 0.3 (if it was available), we'd name it 0.3-0ubuntu1 as it is not in Debian yet or at least our version is not based on the debian one
[20:22] <dholbach> dogi: good question: you can ignore that - it's just a warning telling you that you don't have the key of ross burton who happened to do the last upload of xicc
 QUESTION: why the DEB* env vars instead of respecting existing data (e.g. GECOS field, username?)
[20:23] <dholbach> Solarion: I think the patch for devscripts to make it use GECOS fields has not been written yet
[20:23] <dholbach> http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/pkgreport.cgi?src=devscripts indicates there's no bug report open for that yet
[20:23] <dholbach> it'd certainly be nice to have though
[20:23] <james_w> I think it falls back to the normal fields, but allows you to use these on top to change your identity for packaging.
[20:24] <dholbach> oh ok, good to know
[20:24] <dholbach> any more questions?
[20:24] <james_w> search for DEBEMAIL in man dch and all is explained
[20:24] <dholbach> great :)
 Question: what does the '-i' in the dch command do?
[20:25] <dholbach> james_w: it inserts a new changelog entry and increments the version number
 QUESTION: how to use `dch -i` from emacs' shell?
[20:25] <dholbach> there are other scenarios where you might not want to do that, let's assume you're working on a huge revision together with friends and co-maintainers
[20:25] <dholbach> in that case you use dch -e
[20:26] <dholbach> eddyMul: I haven't used emacs for years, so I guess I'm the wrong person to answer your question - I could just answer how you switch to a different one, sorry :)
[20:26] <dholbach> maybe  devscripts-el  has some love for emacs
[20:26] <eddyMul> dholbach: it's minute detail. I'll survive w/ nano. carry on
[20:26] <dholbach> I'm sorry - I don't know
[20:27] <dholbach> I set  EDITOR=vi  - sorry
[20:27] <dholbach> ok... back to our changelog
[20:27] <dholbach> now that we've covered the version string, next is the ubuntu release we upload to
[20:28] <dholbach> we generally can only upload to the current development release, which in our case is 'hardy'
[20:28] <dholbach> of course there's also "gutsy-updates" and "gutsy-security" etc, but that's something you can learn more about in tomorrow's session
[20:28] <dholbach> SRU/Security Updates (Luca Falavigna, William Grant)
[20:28] <dholbach> so we'll set it to hardy and leave the urgency as is
[20:29] <dholbach> as actual changelog entry, I set:
[20:29] <dholbach>   * debian/control: replace 'colour' with 'color'.
[20:29] <dholbach> note how I refer to the file I changed and what I did with it
[20:30] <dholbach> as we're working on an (imaginative, granted) bug we'd add something along the lines of  (LP: #123456)  to that line
[20:30] <dholbach> to indicate: we fixed bug 123456
[20:30] <dholbach> once the actual upload happens the bug will be closed automatically
[20:30] <dholbach> ok... change done and documented
[20:31] <dholbach> now we come to something our friends at Debian asked us to do when we change any Debian package
[20:31] <dholbach> (remember we changed it from 0.2-2 to 0.2-2ubuntu1)
[20:31] <dholbach> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DebianMaintainerField
[20:31] <dholbach> we'll need to edit  debian/control  again
 QUESTION: regarding numbering scheme, what if there's no Debian version?
[20:32] <dholbach> and replace
[20:32] <dholbach>   Maintainer: Ross Burton <ross@debian.org>
[20:32] <dholbach> with
[20:32] <dholbach> XSBC-Original-Maintainer: Ross Burton <ross@debian.org>
[20:32] <dholbach> Maintainer: Ubuntu MOTU Developers <ubuntu-motu@lists.ubuntu.com>
[20:32] <dholbach> Solarion: good question - in that case we'll name it    0.3-0ubuntu1   (0 because there was no debian revision of it yet)
 QUESTION: what if we touched a bunch of files in patching it? should I still put multiple files? what would it look like? (e.g. modified debian/rules to have a dh_install, then added debian/install for list of files)
[20:33] <dholbach> eddyMul: there's no strict policy, but I prefer to mention all the changes I've done
[20:33] <dholbach> so if you have one big change that consist of changes in various files you could do something like:
[20:34] <eddyMul> dholbach: so, for my example, can you show me how you would document it?
[20:34] <dholbach>   * debian/control, debian/rules, debian/patches/01_frobnication.patch:  make sure frobnication is executed after configuration.
[20:34] <eddyMul> dholbach: got it. thanx.
[20:34] <dholbach> or something along the lines of:
[20:34] <dholbach>   * debian/control.in:
[20:34] <dholbach>     - Updated library dependency versions based on configure.ac
[20:34] <dholbach>   * debian/patches/01_lpi.patch:
[20:34] <dholbach>     - Updated
[20:34] <dholbach>   * debian/patches/90_autoconf.patch:
[20:34] <dholbach>     - Updated via automagic
[20:35] <dholbach> as I said: there's no strict policy
[20:35] <dholbach> if you're not afraid of getting a lot of emails, check out the hardy-changes list to see all the changes that are made during the hardy release and how they are documented :)
[20:35] <dholbach> back to the maintainer field change
[20:35] <dholbach> in  XSBC-Original-Maintainer:  preserve the original maintainer
[20:36] <dholbach> but setting the Maintainer field to an Ubuntu list ensures that none of our users mail the debian maintainer accidentally
[20:36] <dholbach> this was decided by all debian maintainers is understandable
[20:36] <dholbach> the tool    update-maintainer   (also in ubuntu-dev-tools) does that automatically for you :)
[20:36] <dholbach> let's document that change too
[20:36] <dholbach> dch -e
[20:37] <dholbach> something along the lines of:
[20:37] <dholbach>   * debian/control:
[20:37] <dholbach>     - replace 'colour' with 'color'.
[20:37] <dholbach>     - changed Maintainer field.
[20:37] <dholbach> will do
[20:37] <dholbach> now we're all set and happy with our changes :)
[20:37] <dholbach> let's build the new source package (including .diff.gz and .dsc) for the 0.2-2ubuntu1 release
[20:38] <dholbach> please run      debuild -S
[20:38] <dholbach> (for some of you it might complain about a missing GPG key - please ignore that - it's irrelevant right now)
[20:38] <dholbach> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/GnuPrivacyGuardHowto has more info on how to set it up properly
[20:38] <dholbach> all set?
[20:38] <jcastro> yep!
[20:39] <Yasumoto> +1
[20:39] <InsClusoe> +1
[20:39] <thekorn> yes
[20:39] <dholbach> great
[20:39] <dholbach> cd ..
[20:39] <dholbach> ls
[20:39] <eddyMul> +1
[20:40] <dholbach> now we have: xicc_0.2-2ubuntu1.diff.gz  xicc_0.2-2ubuntu1.dsc  xicc_0.2-2ubuntu1_source.build  xicc_0.2-2ubuntu1_source.changes
[20:40] <dholbach> tihs is the new source package for our changed xicc package
[20:40] <dholbach> if you now run:
[20:40] <dholbach>    debdiff xicc_0.2-2.dsc xicc_0.2-2ubuntu1.dsc  > debdiff
[20:41] <dholbach> debdiff will diff the two source packages and write it to a file called debdiff
[20:41] <dholbach> can you paste your debdiff into http://paste.ubuntu.com and paste the link here?
[20:41] <ninkendo> QUESTION: will the debdiff command only find changes in the debian/ directory?  Or does it scan the entire source tree for changes?
[20:42] <jcastro> http://paste.ubuntu.com/4781/
[20:42] <dholbach> ninkendo: the entire tree
[20:42] <InsClusoe> http://paste.ubuntu.com/4782/
[20:42] <dholbach> good work jcastro
[20:42] <ninkendo> http://paste.ubuntu.com/4784/
[20:42] <eddyMul> http://paste.ubuntu.com/4783/
[20:42] <dholbach> InsClusoe: you used my name in DEBEMAIL and DEBFULLNAME :-)
[20:43] <InsClusoe> Thats the best way to survive any mistakes that I do in packaging... :-)
[20:43] <dholbach> eddyMul: xicc-0.2.orig/debian/changelog.dch.save should probably not be in the debdiff - make sure you delete it and re-run debuild -S + debdiff
[20:43] <dholbach> InsClusoe: hahaha :)
[20:43] <dholbach> good work ninkendo
[20:44] <dholbach> well done everybody
[20:44] <Yasumoto> http://paste.ubuntu.com/4785/
[20:44] <dholbach> our first debdiff is in good shape we're ready to get it reviewed and uploaded
[20:44] <dholbach> looking good Yasumoto
[20:44] <Yasumoto> thanks dholbach :)
 QUESTION: is there a way to have debdiff ignore some files (e.g. emacs_backup_files~)
[20:45] <dholbach> now we come to one of the most essential processes in contributing to Ubuntu development: the sponsoring process
[20:45] <dholbach> eddyMul: you can run filterdiff on the debdiff afterwards or use    debdiff --exlude <pattern>
[20:46] <dholbach> but generally it's better to clean up the directory and make the change as minimal as necessary and possible
[20:46] <dholbach> back to sponsoring: sponsoring means: somebody who is in the ~ubuntu-dev signs your changes with their gpg key and uploads to the build daemon
[20:47] <dholbach> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SponsorshipProcess explains how it works
[20:47] <dholbach>  - basically you either work on an existing bug and follow up there or file a new one
[20:47] <dholbach>  -  you attach your debdiff (extra points if your changelog contains (LP: #123456) to fix the bug directly)
[20:48] <dholbach>  - you subscribe either ubuntu-universe-sponsors for universe/multiverse packages or
[20:48] <dholbach>  - you subscribe either ubuntu-main-sponsors for main/restricted packages
[20:48] <dholbach> done
[20:48] <dholbach> after a some time somebody will be in touch with you to review your patch and upload it once it's all good
[20:48] <dholbach> of course you wouldn't want to submit the colour/color debdiff, but do something useful instead ;-)
[20:49] <dholbach> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/TODO and https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/TODO/Bugs lists a lot of bugs to get started with
[20:49] <dholbach> my personal favourites are:
[20:49] <dholbach>  - bugs tagged as 'bitesize' (good for new contributors)
[20:49] <dholbach>  - bugs tagged as 'packaging' (bugs are in the packaging, not in the upstream source code)
[20:50] <dholbach>  - bugs that are fixed elsewhere (Launchpad has the nifty feature of indicating wether a bug is fixed upstream or in a different distro if you link to other bug trackers)
[20:50] <dholbach> those bugs should be a good start
 QUESTION: how would get this diff into my PPA ?
[20:51] <dholbach> pixelpapst: you'd        dput myppa xicc_0.2-2ubuntu1_source.changes        assuming that you have everything set up according to http:/help.launchpad.net/PPAQuickStart
 QUESTION: how to use LP to search for tags in bugs?
[20:52] <dholbach> eddyMul: the bugs should be linked from http://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/TODO/Bugs
[20:52] <dholbach> but hang on
[20:52] <dholbach> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/?field.tag=frobnication    should work too
[20:53] <dholbach> http://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/GettingStarted should have a lot of the information I just covered
[20:53] <dholbach> be bold, start fixing bugs, don't hesitate to ask in #ubuntu-motu or on ubuntu-motu-mentors@lists.u.c
[20:53] <dholbach> in addition to that we have a MOTU Q&A session every friday in this channel
[20:53] <dholbach> so there are lots of offers to help you get started
[20:54] <dholbach> more questions?
[20:55] <dholbach> If you like the event add your weblog to http://ubuntuweblogs.org (by following the instructions on http://ubuntuweblogs.org/submit.html) and blog about it or your progress on your MOTU Journey
[20:56] <dholbach> ok... if that's it... thanks everybody
[20:56] <shujin>  Thanks dholbach!
[20:56] <dholbach> I know you all can do it - hope to see you on your MOTU Journey soon :)
[20:56] <Solarion> dholbach: thanks
[20:56] <eddyMul> thanx, dholbach
[20:56] <awalton__> thanks
[20:56] <joumetal> thanks.
[20:56] <dholbach> hope to see you all tomorrow - the schedule is full with good stuff :)
[20:57] <barcc> dholbach: thanks
[20:57] <eddyMul> dholbach: hopefully no schedule switches.....
[20:57] <jcastro> thanks dholbach!
[20:57] <InsClusoe> Thanks a lot dholbach and all others who patiently explained the stuff and answered all our questions..
[20:57] <dholbach> InsClusoe: I had a great time!
[20:58] <eddyMul> well, i'm off to start my day (here in US). c u all tomorrow
[20:59] <shujin> Lunch Time!
[20:59] <shujin> see you all tomorrow!
[21:41] <daltonico> hello
[21:41] <daltonico> hola
[22:05]  * xbisont is away: Ya me fuí