=== _Turf is now known as Turf
AlucardbashohII> おはよう〜01:35
Alucard神奈川 オールスターですか?01:38
AlucardSLAM DUNKから01:38
bashohII湘南ボーイ です。01:38
bashohIIゴールド免許の らいだ~ ですw01:39
bashohIIAlucard > 日本人ですか?01:40
AlucardbashohII> ホンコンじんです01:40
AlucardbashohII> おぉ〜01:44
Alucard"我已经在中国留学了" これでいいよ〜:P01:44
AlucardbashohII> 在中國的生活怎樣?01:45
AlucardbashohII> これから464901:46
AlucardbashohII> 有吃過了什麼不錯的東西呢?01:48
AlucardbashohII> 有来过香港吗(有來過香港嗎)?02:10
AlucardbashohII> 哈哈~02:11
AlucardNext meeting    When: 21st February 2008    Start: 16:00    End: 17:00    Timezone:  UTC    Where: #ubuntu-training on irc.freenode.net    Chaired By: Billy Cina02:19
Alucard我喜欢(我喜歡)L'ARC~en~Ciel www02:25
Alucardd21 UTC 1600 = d22 GMT+8 0000/d22 GMT+9 010002:26
=== awalton__ is now known as edud_eoqqq
=== edud_eoqqq is now known as awalton__
=== chuyen is now known as lyn4
=== lyn4 is now known as chuyen
popeybeat me10:37
=== dholbach_ is now known as dholbach
=== shujin is now known as daishujin
nxvl_workbug #19288715:49
slytherinnxvl_work: Wrong window probably15:50
nxvl_workslytherin: nop, testing ubotu for my talk15:50
slytherinnxvl_work: Remove the #15:51
dholbachthere's just ubuntulog in here15:51
dholbachso no dice15:51
nxvl_workbug 19288715:51
nxvl_workdholbach: it doesn't put the links to the bugs inhere?15:51
jpatrickodd, ubotu is here15:52
dholbachoh... it is15:52
daishujindoes it need a !15:52
daishujin!bug 19288715:52
slytherinubotu: wakeup15:53
ubotuSorry, I don't know anything about wakeup - try searching on http://ubotu.ubuntu-nl.org/factoids.cgi15:53
dholbachmaybe best to ask Seveas in some other channel15:53
sistpoty|workLaunchpad bug 192887 in ubuntu "FeatureFreeze exception request for sun-javadb" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/192887 (sorry, I'm a busy bot :P)15:53
dholbachsistpoty|work: hehe15:53
nxvl_workdholbach: doesn't mind i will paste the link by myself15:54
dholbachnxvl_work: if you type manually: http://launchpad.net/bugs/<number> will be the shortest15:55
jpatrickdholbach: pinged him15:55
nxvl_workdholbach: yep, i know15:55
dholbachrock on15:55
nxvl_workdholbach: thanks15:55
dholbachI hope that's enough caps for today and you don't mind if I write lower case from now on :)16:00
* mruiz waves16:00
mrsnohey :)16:00
dholbachplease ask questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat, prefixed with QUESTION:16:00
dholbacheverybody excited?16:00
dholbachready to go?16:00
* InsClusoe wags his tail furiously..16:00
dholbachhehehe :-)16:00
dholbachhttps://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDeveloperWeek has the schedule of today and we'll start off with "MOTU Processes"16:01
nxvl_work\o\ /o/ \o\ /o/ \o\ /o/ \o\ /o/ \o\ /o/ \o\ /o/ \o\ /o/ \o\ /o/ \o\ /o/ \o\ /o/ \o\ /o/ \o\ /o/ \o\ /o/ \o\ /o/ \o\ /o/ \o\ /o/ \o\ /o/ \o\ /o/ \o\ /o/16:01
dholbachI gave a session with the same title yesterday and will cover the same topics because I think they're important16:01
dholbachplease don't hesitate to ask all questions related to MOTU, Ubuntu Development and other stuff you're wondering about16:02
nxvl_workdholbach: i will handle the questons again16:02
dholbachnxvl_work: you ROCK16:02
dholbachso there's been talk about MOTU for the whole week already - I hope you all know what MOTU is about :)16:02
dholbachMOTU is the first stepping stone into Ubuntu Development and the team who will help you get started16:03
dholbachas member of the MOTU team you can upload packages to universe and multiverse16:03
dholbachthe process to join the team is pretty straight-forward:16:03
dholbach - you work with sponsors (more about that in a bit) who will review your packages and patches and upload them into the archive once they're happy16:04
dholbach - once the sponsors tell you: "hey man, you should be able to do this on your own - you're really good", you should probably consider applying for MOTU membership at the MOTU Council16:05
dholbachand that's all there is to it16:05
dholbachSponsoring means: somebody who's member of ~ubuntu-dev will review your patch or package, sign it with their gpg key, then upload to the build daemon16:05
dholbachthe advantage of this process is: you don't have a fixed sponsor but work with a team, so you can learn a lot of different things from a lot of different people16:06
dholbachalso you get to know a lot of people who can help you out in the Ubuntu community16:06
dholbachthe sponsorship process is explained at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SponsorshipProcess and means in a nutshell:16:07
dholbach - you attach your patch on a bug report16:07
dholbach - then subscribe the sponsors team (which for main/restricted packages is ubuntu-main-sponsors    and     for universe/multiverse packages is ubuntu-universe-sponsors)16:07
dholbachdoes that make sense so far?16:08
dholbachany questions about what it's like to go through the process or anything that's unclear?16:08
nxvl_work<v0lksman> QUESTION:  What's the difference between a sponsor and the REVU site?16:08
dholbachv0lksman: good point16:09
dholbachREVU is a page we set up quite a while ago to help us with reviewing NEW packages16:09
dholbachNEW packages generally mean software that has never been in Ubuntu, so fresh new software :)16:09
dholbachhttps://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Packages/REVU explains how to upload software there16:10
dholbachNEW packages are a bit different as they require much closer review, the review of a 'diff' is just not enough16:10
nxvl_work<InsClusoe> QUESTION: How is ensured that patches don't break something else inadvertently?16:10
mruizdholbach, http://revu.ubuntuwire.com16:10
dholbachgetting a NEW package in requires two ACKs from ubuntu-dev members and is something we work on in the first half of the release cycle, the second half (after Feature Freeze) is dedicated to fix the packages we already have :)16:11
dholbachInsClusoe: excellent question16:11
dholbachthere are a lot of things you can test:16:11
dholbach - does it still build with the patch applied?16:11
dholbach - is the patch integrated upstream or in debian already?16:11
dholbach - checking the resulting binary packages: are there removed files?16:11
dholbach - checking library packages: are there symbols which were removed from the library16:12
dholbach - etc etc etc16:12
dholbachthere are lots of things to look at, especially when the patches are big - you learn a lot when you try to get patches included, it's the same kind of things you test when you review other patches :)16:13
dholbach<InsClusoe> QUESTION: How is ensured that patches don't break something else inadvertently?16:14
dholbach QUESTION: Ok.. Is there any checklist that I can refer to so that I can have a certain level of confidence in the patch I submit?16:14
dholbachhttps://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment/CodeReviews has a good overview but is probably not complete :)16:14
dholbachInsClusoe: if you have doubts about the patch you're about to submit, it's probably best to point that concern out in the bug report so people know what to look at16:15
InsClusoeYup.. Makes sense.. Thanks.16:15
dholbachI personally trust people more who point out that they're unsure - it's a sign of good collaboration16:15
dholbach<slytherin> QUESTION: Recently the process for new versions of packages was changed from 'submit interdiff' to 'submit .diff.gz'. What are the reasons and how does newer process helps sponsoring?16:16
dholbachslytherin: the process was changed back to .diff.gz16:16
dholbachsome developers found using and reviewing an interdiff to be a bit cumbersome16:16
slytherinMakes sense. Thanks. :-)16:17
dholbachpeople seemed to be more familiar with using filterdiff on diff files, but I have to admit there were other more technical reasons, I can't find the reference right now16:17
dholbachexcusez-moi :)16:18
dholbachany more questions on how to get your packages / patches included? what is expected of a MOTU or anything else?16:18
nxvl_workdholbach: mi list is empty16:18
dholbachok, let me talk a bit about Events - it's not so much a process but something that might help get you started16:19
dholbachevery Friday at 13:00 UTC (minus the coming Friday) we have a MOTU Q&A session in this very channel16:19
dholbachit's a good time to meet developers and talk about problems you're having or things you don't understand in a smaller forum than this IRC session :)16:19
dholbachalso we do Packaging 101 session once a month16:20
dholbachall of these happen in #ubuntu-classroom16:20
dholbachother things that might be beneficial for you16:20
dholbach - #ubuntu-motu of course :)16:20
dholbach - ubuntu-motu-mentors@lists.ubuntu.com16:20
dholbachdon't hesitate to ask - there's always *somebody* awake :)16:20
dholbachnxvl will give a session later on about how to get started on MOTU/TODO and MOTU/TODO/Bugs - that's going to be excellent16:21
yannick_lmhi there16:21
dholbachI talked a bit about Feature Freeze earlier16:22
dholbachFF is the time when specs that are targetted for the current release need to be in a good shape already16:22
dholbachand for us who do package maintenance it means: stabilisation16:22
dholbachso we need to get exceptions for NEW packages and new upstream releases (if it's not 100% clear that it's a bugfix-only release)16:22
dholbachsome days before the release day we enter Hard Freeze where every single change will be reviewed16:23
dholbachhttps://wiki.ubuntu.com/HardyReleaseSchedule for reference16:23
dholbachdoes that make sense so far?16:23
dholbachok, it seems so :)16:24
dholbachanother important topic is the Sync Request Process16:24
dholbachthere's always some bit of confusion about what a sync actually is16:24
dholbacha sync means: copy the source package from debian as-is, build it in ubuntu16:25
dholbachthis implies that all changes in the current Ubuntu package are overwritten16:25
dholbachso if you decide to ask for a sync, you need to make 100% sure it'S OK to do that16:25
dholbachif you've checked that the new package from debian builds, it's OK to sync it in the current time of the release cycle, you can file a bug report asking for the sync16:26
dholbachyou include the changelog of the debian package to indicate what has happened in the meantime16:26
dholbachthen (if you're not in ubuntu-dev yet) subscribe ubuntu-universe-sponsors if it's in unvierse/multiverse (ubuntu-main-sponsors accordingly)16:27
dholbachthey will ACK the report if it's OK, then get the ubuntu-archive team to do it :)16:27
dholbachhttps://wiki.ubuntu.com/SyncRequestProcess also explains about a tool called requestsync which makes your life even easier16:28
dholbachthe same checks that InsClusoe and I talked about earlier apply to sync too16:28
dholbachso if the synced debian package does not build on ubuntu we have a problem and need to fix it, etc etc16:28
dholbachbeing in sync is a very good thing, but we need to be careful16:29
dholbachwhat does it mean to be in sync?16:29
InsClusoeIt means we are using the latest version from upstream.16:30
dholbachif you look at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HardyReleaseSchedule again you will notice that from start of the release cycle to some time nine weeks later (until Debian Import Freeze) the status is all green16:30
dholbachin this time we will sync the newest version of the debian package automatically16:30
dholbachif you're in sync with debian and you run into problems you have more eyes on the problem, because you both use the same unmodified source16:31
dholbacheven better if the debian version is in sync with the version of the upstream authors :)16:31
dholbachalso: if we're not in sync we need to merge our changes manually in that green timeline of the release schedule16:32
dholbachand that's a lot of work16:32
dholbachfor those of you who didn't have the time to attend James Westby's and nxvl's session about collaborating with debian here's the link: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/devweek0802/Debian16:33
dholbachif we pass on our patches, we can make sure we get in sync quicker again, which we all benefit from16:33
dholbachany questions? :)16:33
nxvl_workdholbach: empty list again16:33
dholbachnxvl_work: I just wanted to leave some time for people to ask questions :)16:34
dholbachhttps://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment/Merging is a pretty good page of how to do merging16:34
nxvl_workdholbach: yes, i know, but i was trying to tell you to wait for questions cause there are no one on queue :D16:34
* dholbach hugs nxvl_work16:34
* nxvl_work HUGS dholbach back16:35
nxvl_work<InsClusoe> QUESTION: Between two releases, if there is no change in debian version of a package and there are a few ubuntu fixes, would we still sync with Debian at the start of the release cycle?16:35
dholbachwhen Hardy+1 opens this is going to be the first big portion of things we work on and excellent to help out with :)16:35
dholbachInsClusoe: no, as soon as a package contains "ubuntu" in the version string it is not synced16:35
dholbachor hang on - did I understand your question correctly?16:36
dholbachif there are no debian changes, there's nothing to sync16:36
dholbachwe can still try to pass on our ubuntu changes to the debian maintainer though16:37
dholbachthat's always advisable16:37
dholbachJames Westby and nxvl_work might have talked about a tool called submittodebian which makes the process of sending patches virtually painless16:37
dholbachit makes use of https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/Debian/Usertagging internally16:37
dholbachso that patches in the debian bugtracker get a tag called 'origin-ubuntu': http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/pkgreport.cgi?tag=origin-ubuntu;users=ubuntu-devel@lists.ubuntu.com16:38
dholbachother patches are directly grabbed by debian maintainers or live in some kind of revision control system, so you probably won't find every patch that was ever sent in that list16:39
dholbacha few things I always highlight are:16:39
dholbach - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment (for general process questions - like How does the archive work? When can I request a sync? etc)16:40
dholbach - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PackagingGuide (which helps with packaging, it has tutorials and everything)16:40
dholbach - and https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU (which lists team meetings, team organisation and so on)16:40
dholbachhttps://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/GettingStarted is the general first address :)16:41
dholbachWho of you could imagine helping out in the MOTU team any time soon? :-)16:41
dholbachthat's all? :-)16:42
* InsClusoe says yes if [soon=now].16:42
daishujinI'd like to try16:42
dholbachROCK and ROLL - that's the spirit :-)16:42
IulianWho knows, I still have many things to learn.16:42
dholbachWhat's your general impression of Ubutnu Development? Daunting? Crazy?16:43
IulianHeh :)16:43
dholbachIulian: impressive how?16:43
daishujinthese talks have certainly made me appreciate my desktop alot more!16:44
Iuliandholbach: In many areas.16:44
bazhangamazing what all of you do16:44
IulianI mean, I like how the team is working, helping each others...16:44
InsClusoeIt's really cool.16:44
slytherinWhat is amazing is that you can help improve your own user experience. :-016:45
IulianYes, indeed.16:45
dholbachslytherin: exactly16:45
dholbachwhat's important to me is to show you that you can help each other too and that the whole processes are no rocket science :)16:45
dholbachbut that with some patience, some detective skills and motivation you can be part of the whole thing too :)16:46
InsClusoeQUESTION: How do you guys manage to ensure high levels of usability without any kind of automated testing? Or is there any wrong assumption on my part?16:46
dholbachInsClusoe: automatic testing as in how? testing of usability?16:46
dholbachby the way: Thursday 17:00 UTC: Writing Scripts For Automated Desktop Testing (Lars Wirzenius)16:47
InsClusoeCompanies usually have robots for UI testing and things like that.16:47
dholbachLars has been putting a lot of effort into figuring out the problem of UI testing16:48
dholbachbut we benefit of course of a lot of other developers working with us16:48
dholbachso for example gnome packages before they are released in ubuntu have gone through a lot of hands already: the GNOME upstream developers have regular SVN checkouts and so on16:48
dholbachsome software (unfortunately not all) comes with HUGE test suites16:49
dholbachif you look at the code of bzr for example - it's just amazing16:49
slytherinAnd then there are beta testers. :-D16:50
dholbachof course :)16:50
dholbach<Shiv> QUESTION: Do the packages have associate test suites to ensure quality?16:50
dholbachShiv: we run regular installability test of packages and regular lintian checks too16:50
dholbachlintian and linda are tools to check how policy compliant packages are16:51
dholbachwhen it comes to test suites regarding the software itself we mostly depend on the test suites that upstream authors have written16:51
dholbacha large degree of software written just for ubuntu has test suites too (like apport, jockey, etc)16:51
dholbachand as far as I know the security team writes tests for the fixes they upload too16:52
dholbachso if there should be a security regression it should be caught16:52
dholbach<Shiv> QUESTION: How do you test installation and functionality of a base package (say glibc)16:52
nxvl< Shiv> QUESTION: How do you test installation and functionality of a base package (say  glibc)16:52
dholbachShiv: piuparts is a tool that Lars Wirzenius has written which test installation of packages in a chroot (a fresh minimal environment)16:53
dholbachlibc6 is tested like all other packages too16:53
dholbachanother huge part of what we test is upgrades16:53
dholbachwe have machines doing nothing else but testing upgrades from gutsy to hardy, from dapper to hardy and so on16:54
dholbach<Shiv> QUESTION: For a developer to test this, it would be painful. If a newer ubuntu release needs newer toolchain, building all of them is a difficult proposition.16:54
dholbachShiv: absolutely, which is why at least main is built with a new toolchain once it is put in place16:55
dholbachhttps://wiki.ubuntu.com/HardyReleaseSchedule indicates when those tests are run16:55
dholbachany more questions about Ubuntu Development? :)16:55
dholbachwhat I like about the questions from you guys today is: you absolutely want to do it right - that's great16:56
nxvl < Shiv> QUESTION: Is toolchain uploading done by MOTUs or core-dev16:56
dholbachShiv: doko is your man - he's in charge of the toolchain and an awesome guy16:56
dholbachhe's employed by Canonical, a core-dev and works in the Debian Toolchain team too16:57
dholbachmore questions? :)16:58
dholbachif not, you have two more minutes until the next session :)16:58
dholbachthanks everybody for coming to the session!16:58
russell__no problem ;)16:58
* mruiz hugs dholbach 16:59
Iuliandholbach: No, thank you!16:59
* dholbach hugs Iulian16:59
dholbachoh.... I completely forgot something! Packaging Jams!16:59
dholbachwatch out for Packaging Jams in your area :)16:59
dholbachok it's 17:00 UTC17:00
dholbachand thumper is already here17:00
thumperI am17:00
thumperdholbach: get into it now?17:00
dholbachthumper is Tim Penhey, a Launchpad Hacker who among others made the goodness that http://code.launchpad.net/ is possible17:00
* thumper bows17:00
thumper= Hosting Code With Launchpad =17:01
dholbachI hope you all enjoy the session and ask your questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat17:01
dholbachthumper: the stage is yours :)17:01
thumperdholbach: thanks17:01
thumperThis is my first time working with dholbach and ubuntu open week17:01
thumperso be gentle17:01
thumperJust so I feel like I'm not just talking to myself the whole time17:01
thumperwho is around for this one?17:02
IulianI am17:02
thumperAs dholbach said, my name is Tim and I am the team lead for the launchpad-bazaar integration17:03
thumperOur job as a team is to make using Launchpad with Bazaar better than the sum of the parts17:03
thumperLaunchpad by itself is really nifty17:03
KEB1is teh sessoin alreday running?17:03
thumperBazaar by itself rocks17:03
thumperKEB1: yep17:03
thumperour job is to make using Launchpad and Bazaar together really blow your socks off17:03
thumperAs some of you may suspect, part of this was prepared in advance :)17:03
thumper== Bazaar ==17:04
thumperA very quick intro17:04
thumperBazaar is a distributed version control system found at http://bazaar-vcs.org17:04
thumperBazaar is installed on all ubuntu machines by default, and is the command 'bzr'17:04
thumperYou don't need a central repository to manage your code17:04
thumperand that's all I'm going to say about it right now17:04
thumper== Launchpad ==17:05
thumperTrying to describe what Launchpad is in just a few words is really hard17:05
thumper<Shiv> QUESTION: Sounds lame, but nevertheless - is bazaar by ubuntu and for what purpose ?17:05
thumperBazaar is a community project17:05
thumperbut several lead developers a canonical employees17:05
thumperBazaar was sponsored by canonical because at the time there were no DVCS available that provided the functionality that was looked for17:07
thumper <Shiv> QUESTION: (continue) so what role does bzr play for ubuntu, or is it a standalong product ?17:07
thumperbzr is a standalone product17:07
thumperbut it is also a tool for collaborative software development17:07
thumpermore will become apparent as I go on17:08
thumperLaunchpad aims to make it easier to collaborate in open source software development17:08
thumperLaunchpad is a bug tracker, feature planner, translation manager, handles questions and answers, and a source code repository17:08
thumperor as kiko has mentioned in a blog post, a source code supermarket17:08
thumperWhat we are here to talk about today is working with code and launchpad together17:08
thumper(using bzr as a package management tool is a whole different session, sorry Shiv)17:09
thumperAs far as Launchpad is concerned, code is stuff in Bazaar branches17:09
thumperYes, you can put other stuff in branches too, but we think of it as code17:09
thumperTo get a quick overview of the projects that have code available, you can look at https://code.launchpad.net/+project-cloud (hopefully you don't all go there at once)17:10
thumperBazaar is a relative new-comer in the version control stakes, and as such many projects use other revision control systems17:10
thumperLaunchpad can import CVS and Subversion branches into bazaar branches and make these available through Launchpad17:10
thumperThese are considered "imported" branches, and are owned by the vcs-imports user (https://code.launchpad.net/~vcs-imports)17:11
thumperIf you have your code in a bazaar branch now, you can either "push" your branch to Launchpad (using `bzr push`) or get Launchpad to mirror your branch from a public, accessible location17:11
thumperOne of the recent improvements to the user interface to bzr (read that as command line), is to be able to use an URL scheme of lp: to reference launchpad.17:12
thumper<Solarion> QUESTION: given all that Launchpad is, is it intended to be like SourceForge, Novell Forge, GNU Savannah, etc.?17:12
thumperYes, and then some17:12
thumperSo I can go `bzr branch lp:gnuhello` to get a copy of gnuhello (you can too).17:12
thumperIf you have a launchpad identity, you need to make sure that you have specified a SSH key in order to push to launchpad (https://launchpad.net/people/+me/+editsshkeys).17:13
thumperThis is how launchpad confirms that it is you17:13
* thumper pours more coffee17:13
thumper<Shiv> QUESTION: Why another tool (bzr) instead of adapting distributed versioning tool like hg ?17:14
thumperbzr and hg both have a similar basis and both started development at around the same time17:14
thumperbzr had a different set of ideals than hg17:14
thumperand we believe the future is bzr (but we are biased)17:14
thumperSince my username is thumper for Launchpad, I can push a copy of gnuhello that I'd just branches by using `bzr push bzr+ssh://thumper@bazaar.launchpad.net/~thumper/gnuhello/my-branch`17:15
thumperI'm sure you can agree that is somewhat unwieldy17:15
thumperBazaar gets shipped with a launchpad plugin which allows some nifty additions17:15
thumperYou can tell bzr about your launchpad id by using `bzr launchpad-login` and your launchpad id17:15
thumperso mine would be `bzr launchpad-login thumper`17:16
thumperThen you can push directly to launchpad using `bzr push lp:~thumper/gnuhello/my-branch` which is somewhat shorter17:16
thumper<Solarion> QUESTION: are there plugins for git, hg, etc. planned for LP integration?17:16
thumperbefore we could look at integrating them, they need to be able to handle incremental imports17:17
thumperbut yes, we are considering them17:17
thumperThe push to an lp scheme url require bzr 1.1 I think17:17
thumperQUESTION: by "bazaar" you mean "bazaar-ng", right?  ;)17:17
thumperbazaar-ng is an old term that has been superseded17:18
thumperthere is quite a history with the tool17:18
thumperThere was an older bazaar with the command 'baz'17:18
thumperwhich was replaced by Bazaar-NG17:18
thumperwhich then took over the name17:19
thumperso we don't call it Bazaar-NG any more, just Bazaar17:19
thumperBTW if you are wanting the latest bzr, use the Bazaar developers PPA (https://launchpad.net/~bzr/+archive)17:19
thumperBranches in Launchpad are identified by a tripartite name, the owner of the branch, the project, and the branch name these three parts need to be unique in Launchpad17:19
thumperBranches can be owned by individuals, like you and me, or by teams, such as bzr (https://launchpad.net/~bzr) or mailman-coders (https://launchpad.net/~mailman-coders)17:20
thumperWhen a branch is owned by a team, any active member of that team can push to that branch to update it (providing it is not mirrored from elsewhere)17:20
thumperWhy put branches on Launchpad I hear you say?17:20
* thumper hits the end of his pre-prepared notes 17:21
thumperFirstly it makes you code available to others17:21
thumpersince bzr is a distributed version control system, your commits for your work are local17:21
thumperuntil you make them available to other, people can't merge them17:21
thumper(bundles and merge-directives aside)17:21
thumperand as of Launchpad 1.2.2 you'll get karma for registering brances :)17:22
thumperYou are able to link branches to bugs and blueprints to show intent17:22
thumperbranches linked to bugs indicate that the branch will fix, or does fix the bug17:22
thumperbranch linked to a blueprint indicate that the branch does or will implement the feature17:23
thumper<Picklesworth> QUESTION: Are branches in bzr a neat way to submit patches, a way of different people working on different chunks of project, or both, or neither?17:23
thumperPicklesworth: you've hit the nail on the head with that one17:23
thumperthat is exactly the intent17:23
thumperwith traditional centralised source control systems you need commit rights to write to the central repository17:24
thumperlike with CVS and Subversion17:24
thumperwith bzr you can make your own branch17:24
thumpercommit with useful messages17:24
thumperand there is a tracability there17:24
thumperyou can make the branch available for the core developers17:24
thumperand if the like your change, they can merge your branch in17:25
thumperwhich keeps the attribution to the original author, commit message, complete history et al17:25
thumper<Solarion> QUESTION: given that, what's the point of bundles?17:25
thumperbundles are the ability to send bzr revisions (your work) to people using email17:26
thumperbundles have been superseded by bzr merge-directives which contains additional meta-data17:26
thumper<Solarion> QUESTION: Given that a big aim of LP is to promote coordination and collaboration in FOSS, what are you doing to interoperate with the aforementioned source-forge alikes?17:26
thumperLaunchpad has the ability to have bug-watches on the other systems to where the primary bug tracker is elsewhere17:27
thumperLaunchpad can also import the code from CVS or Subversion to make it available to be used in the way mentioned above17:27
thumperQUESTION: how does LP handle (write) permissions?  Can you give a project member access to a portion of the branch, or is it all/nothing?17:27
thumperNo you cannot give access to portions of a branch17:28
thumperthat is limited by the bzr tool17:28
thumperhowever there are other options17:28
thumperprojects like zope have recently broken up the large source tree into many small ones17:28
thumperthis allows them to have fine grained control over permissions17:28
thumperLaunchpad controls write access to branches through the owner of the branch17:29
thumperif the owner is a team, then the team can write to the branch17:29
thumper<Solarion> QUESTION: what sort of IM/voice/email/whiteboard/video capabilities does LP have?17:29
thumperWhile this is somewhat off topic...17:29
thumperLaunchpad has email lists in beta test17:30
thumperand many Launchpad elements have either whiteborads to leave comments on or can be commented on my any logged in user (like bugs)17:30
thumperno video, im or voice right now17:30
thumper<Solarion> QUESTION: any eclipse and emacs integration planned?17:31
thumperthere is an eclipse plug-in for bzr, but not launchpad at this time17:31
thumperthere is an api project in the works that will open up all you can do with Launchpad through the web ui to external developers17:31
thumperbut that is most likely still a few months off before parts start becoming available17:32
thumper<db-keen> QUESTION: why doesn't launchpad allow getting bugs from an arbitrary gforge site since they all use the same soap interface17:32
thumperdb-keen: sorry, don't know the answer for that17:32
thumper<Solarion> QUESTION: how does LP mesh with the debian system?  E.g. support for dch and friends, as discussed yesterday.17:32
thumperSolarion: sorry, don't know that either17:32
thumper<Solarion> QUESTION: what would you say the biggest limitations of LP are in terms of what you would like it to do and in terms of what its competitors do?17:33
thumperSolarion: not enough time in the day17:33
Solarionthumper: isn't that ubuntu bug #2?  ;)17:33
thumperwe have some really amazing things in the works17:33
thumper<Solarion> QUESTION: how does bzr communicated with LP?17:34
thumperbzr can talk to Launchpad using either SFTP or the bzr smart server (bzr+ssh)17:34
thumperThe SFTP is being deprecated (soon maybe) in favour of bzr+ssh due to the speed improvements that the smart server gives us17:35
thumper<Solarion> QUESTION: what interfaces does LP provide for those wishing to integrate with it, e.g. with a gnome applet or something?17:35
thumperSolarion: that'll be the afore mentioned API that's in the works17:35
thumper<Solarion> QUESTION: so bzr's LP integration is just for dealing with branches, not bugs or whatever?17:36
thumperbzr has an option on commit to say --fixes17:36
thumperI think the option looks something like `bzr commit -m "Fixed foo" --fixes=lp:1234`17:36
thumperwhen Launchpad scans this revision it creates the link between the bug and the branch17:37
thumperwe are considering how to determine other think like actually updating the bug task status17:37
thumperbut you have the question of what is fix committed and what is fix released in the DVCS world17:37
thumperis a bug fix committed when there is a fix on *some* branch, or is it fix committed when it is on trunk?17:37
thumperfor these reasons, we haven't yet hooked that bit up17:38
thumpernow for some new interesting developments17:38
thumper<jsauer> QUESTION: Is it planned that project can host their websites on LP?17:38
thumperyes it is planned, but I can't give an ETA right now17:39
thumperanother way to show intent in Launchpad is the "Propose for merging"17:39
thumperwhen you have a branch associated with a project in Launchpad, you can say that it is to be merged into another branch17:39
thumperthe default option is to be merged into the development focus branch, but you can specify any branch for the project as a target17:40
thumperthis will create a link between the two branches17:40
thumperinitially this link has a "Work in progress" state17:40
thumperYou can update this to "Needs review" when it is ready17:40
thumperhere is where we are linking in the new code review feature17:41
thumperthis is work in development17:41
thumperwell the code review feature is17:41
thumpera person who is in the owner team of the target branch can approve or reject the proposal to merge17:41
thumperand here is were we get to more work in development...17:42
thumpersoon you'll be able to queue up approved proposals17:42
thumperand there will be a robot (read some magic script) that'll talk to launchpad17:42
thumperget the branch at the head of the queue17:42
thumpermerge the source into the target17:42
thumperrun the tests (just like PQM)17:43
thumperand push the resulting branch to Launchpad17:43
thumperPQM is a bzr tool17:43
thumperPQM stands for "Patch Queue Manager"17:43
thumperhowever now it deals with branches17:43
thumperPQM uses email to manage the queue, so you email it to tell it to merge something17:44
thumperwe are going to use the same central code, but use launchpad to control the queue rather than email17:44
thumper<Mirrado> QUESTION: Is it planned to include in LP a resource for project management in the shape of Planner or MS Project?17:45
thumperMirrado: yes that is planned17:45
thumperalthough I'm not sure exactly what is planned17:45
thumperit has been mentioned that we'd like some more detail along that front17:45
thumperso, any other questions now?17:46
thumper<db-keen> QUESTION: Ohloh recently released their code analysis code http://labs.ohloh.net/ohcount/, is that sort of thing expected to be in launchpad?17:47
thumperdb-keen: maybe is all I can say right now17:48
thumperI don't think we have any definite plans right now17:48
thumperThe main thing we are trying to do is make it easier for people to collaborate on code through Launchpad17:49
thumperWe want Launchpad to be a place where people can get code for (almost) any project17:49
thumperthrough the `bzr branch lp:some-project`17:50
thumper<Solarion> QUESTION: how can LP help with dependency tracking? or autotools integration17:50
thumperSolarion: I don't think we have anything there, and to be honest I don't really know how we'd model it17:50
thumper<Mirrado> QUESTION: Through LP is any way to get metrics about code hosted on bzr?17:51
thumperMirrado: what sort of metrics are you after?17:51
thumperbut the answer right now is no17:51
thumperthe only thing we show right now is how many branches there are17:51
thumpernot what's inside them17:51
thumper<eddyMul> QUESTION: If I want to migrate a project from Trac to Launchpad, how challenging of a task is it?17:52
thumpereddyMul: I guess it depends on how much you want to take with you17:52
thumpereddyMul: I think there are bug importers around but worthwhile asking on #launchpad17:53
thumperFYI most of the LP bug developers are in the EU timezone17:54
thumperif you have other questions you think of later, I'm always around in #launchpad17:54
thumperso feel free to ping me, and if I'm not around, I'll get to it when I get back17:54
=== jsauer_ is now known as jsauer
thumper<eddyMul> QUESTION: came in late, but are there any license restriction w.r.t. code hosted in LP?17:55
thumperWhey you register a project in launchpad, you tell launchpad which licence it uses17:55
thumpereddyMul: does that answer your question?17:56
thumper<eddyMul> (what source code license are "hostable"?)17:56
eddyMulthumper: I've never registered a project before... but I assume I'll be presented w/ a list of licenses.... What if my license is not there?17:56
thumperthere is an other box17:56
thumperany open source code is hostable on launchpad17:57
thumperwe have around 2.5 minutes left17:57
thumperany last requests?17:57
eddyMulthumper: does LP support multi-licensed software? (e.g. Mozilla)17:58
thumperYou could look to see what http://launchpad.net/firefox says17:58
eddyMulthumper: Licenses: None specified.   :)17:59
thumperso, that's a wrap17:59
Picklesworththumper: Thank you! This was really informative18:00
thumperdholbach: back to you18:00
Solarionthumper: thanks18:00
dholbachthanks a lot thumper for this great session!18:00
eddyMulthanx, thumper18:00
Mirrado<thumper> code branches, bugs over time, bugs over release cycle, commits over release cycle, lines of code over project life time, etc18:00
jsauerthanks thumper18:00
* nxvl dances 18:00
nxvl\o> <o> \o/ <o/ \o>18:00
thumperMirrado: some of those are there, more are planned18:00
MirradoThanks thumper18:01
dholbachnext up is MOTU Contributor nxvl, also known as Nicolas Valcárcel :-)18:01
nxvldholbach: thnx18:01
dholbachHe will talk about First Steps On Contributing (MOTU/TODO & MOTU/TODO/Bugs)18:01
dholbachenjoy the session :-)18:01
* nxvl waves18:01
nxvlOk, so you want to become a MOTU and start developing for ubuntu?18:01
nxvlThere are many ways to start and many things to do18:01
nxvlsometimes it's hard to find bugs to work and also the places where they are18:01
nxvli will try to show you the places where you can find them and how to work with them18:01
nxvlthis will not be a technical talk, so i will not cover packaging aspects18:01
nxvlbut if you have questions about packaging feel free to ask them18:02
nxvlSo, let's start18:02
nxvlYou want to become a MOTU?18:02
nxvlraise your hans if answer is yes18:02
dholbachparty on! :-)18:02
nxvlThe first place you need to read is https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/GettingStarted18:02
nxvlwhich has links to the most needed documents you need to read18:02
* dustinlange raises hands18:02
nxvland other usefull places to learn how to packages, the MOTU process and so on18:03
nxvlDaniel have gave a talk about the MOTU process earlier today18:03
nxvlif you missed it you can find the log here -> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/devweek0802/Process218:03
nxvlthe most important of those documents is the Packaging Guide18:03
nxvlin this document you can find how the deb packages are done18:03
nxvlhow you can debianize a package which isn't included on debian/ubuntu already18:03
nxvlhow to patch the package to include bug fixes and new features18:03
nxvland all what you need to become a packager18:03
=== R1CHARD is now known as R1CHARD_jam1ng
nxvlIf you are interested on packaging new stuff to fully understand the packaging process18:04
nxvlyou can take a look here -> https://edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bugs?field.tag=needs-packaging18:04
nxvlwhere you can find all the request of others to package new stuff so it can be included in ubuntu18:04
nxvlmany of the reporters are the upstream developers18:04
nxvlbut, what is an upstream developer?18:04
nxvlThey are the developers of a project which package has been included in ubuntu18:04
nxvlfor example take gnome18:05
nxvlthe developers of the gnome software are the members of the Desktop Team18:05
nxvlBUT the upstream developers are the members of Gnome project18:05
nxvlSo, if the reporter is the (one of the) upstream developer he/she can help you a lot as he/she knows the package well and can tell you how it builds, the dependencies and such things18:06
nxvlthose are really important things because they are needed by the .deb package to work, build and install18:07
nxvl<eddyMul> QUESTION: if upstream already has a debian/ sub-directory in their code, how do we package it (can you talk more aboute "native" packages?)18:07
nxvleddyMul: good question18:07
nxvlyes, it's called native packages18:07
nxvlbut you need to be carefull with them18:07
nxvlsomethimes they are packaged with the project policies, and not Ubuntu ones18:07
nxvlor packages for debian or another debian-derivate project18:08
nxvlso it maybe don't work on ubuntu18:08
nxvlif you test it and it works fine you have not much work to do18:08
nxvljust package, test it and ask for someone to upload it18:09
nxvlbut as i said, be very carefull with that because they not always work on ubuntu18:09
nxvleddyMul: does it is clear now?18:09
nxvlok, let move on18:10
nxvl<eddyMul> QUESTION: are the packaging tools smart enough to know that some parts of the debian/ is from orig.tar.gz, and some are from .diff.tar.gz...?18:11
nxvleddyMul: build tools doesn't work this way18:11
nxvlwhen you first package something there is no diff.tar.gz18:12
nxvlyou only have a orig.tar.gz and then they create the diff.tar.gz18:12
nxvlthe diff.gz is not anything but a patch18:13
nxvlwhich is applied to the source (extracted from orig.tar.gz) so in practical way yes, they are smarter enought18:14
nxvl QUESTION: what about versioning for these native debs?18:14
nxvlit doesn change anythink18:14
eddyMulnxvl: got it. thanx.18:14
nxvliÂ'm wrong it actually changes it18:15
nxvlyou don't need to use -XubuntuY part anymomre18:15
nxvljust the upstream version number18:15
nxvlso if it is 0.818:15
nxvlyour ubuntu version is still 0.8 not 0.8-0ubuntu118:16
nxvlBUT if you made ubuntu changes to it, you need to version it on this way18:16
nxvlok now move on18:16
nxvlOne of the hardest part i found when i start18:16
nxvlwas to find the right bugs to start working with18:17
nxvlyou can look at are the bitesize bugs18:17
nxvlyou can fin them here -> https://edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bugs?field.tag=bitesize18:17
nxvlBut what are those bitesize things?18:17
nxvlThey are bugs that you can fix easy18:18
nxvldon't worry if it's not easy for you, take on count that you aren't familiar with packaging18:18
nxvlbut they are bugs of easy fixing where you can practice your packaging more that focusing on the fix18:18
nxvlso they are a really good point to start with18:18
nxvlon this packages the fixes are most of them simple ones18:18
nxvladd somthing to the man pages, add some man pages and such easy things18:19
nxvlso you can only break your head with the packaging part if the fix18:19
nxvlOk, you are having trouble and want someone to help you?18:19
nxvlthere is an option on LP called "Mentoring available" (yes, the light green button)18:19
nxvlon this button (which on ubuntu LP page will take you to https://edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+mentoring)18:20
nxvlyou will find a list of bug reports which someone has offered to help new contributors with18:20
nxvlso for example take Bug #17425218:20
nxvlyou can see that in this bug sais "Mentors: Jonathan Riddell" near the white cross on the red background18:21
nxvlthat means that Jonathan is offering his help on this bug, so you can work on it and ping him for help18:21
nxvl<jsauer> QUESTION: Does this bitesize fixing mean to make a new package or to fix a bug inside the software/project?18:22
nxvljsauer: fix/edit an existing one18:22
nxvljsauer: those are real bug reports that some developers mark as bitesize as they are easy to fix ones18:22
nxvlthat means that some user report it and ask us to change something but the developers realize it was easy to fix, so they mark them for the new ones :D18:23
nxvl<eddyMul> QUESTION: man pages: where can I find a guide to writing man pages?18:23
jsauernxvl: ok now I understand, thanks18:24
nxvlsorry i had connection problems18:25
nxvleddyMul: i not sure, but there is a graphical tool for it18:26
nxvlitÅ's called manedit IIRC18:26
nxvl<InsClusoe> QUESTION: If I understood correctly, unless there is a mentoring available sign in the bug, we are pretty much on our own?18:26
nxvlInsClusoe: not that drastic18:26
nxvlyou can always as on #ubuntu-motu or on the Mailing list18:26
Solarionlooks good for manpages  ---->  http://www.schweikhardt.net/man_page_howto.html18:27
nxvlBUT the mentoring available means that you will have someone taking care of the fix with you as a plus18:27
InsClusoenxvl: hmm..  thanks.18:27
nxvlbut you can always ask in the IRC or the ML or in the LP bug report also18:28
nxvl<eddyMul> QUESTION: manpages: is there a "documentation" guide to it, where it talks about what should be in a man page (how detailed should the man page be, etc)18:28
nxvleddyMul: i really don't know18:28
nxvleddyMul: i'm not a man pages expert, but they should be something like that18:28
nxvllet's move on18:28
nxvlThere is also a Big TODO list for MOTU18:28
nxvlyou can find it here -> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/TODO18:29
nxvlyou can find there a lot of task to do, most of them bitesize ones18:29
nxvlalso there is a problem i don't know why ubuntuwire is down18:29
nxvlbut i hope it to be up soon18:29
nxvlyou can find a lot of easy to resolve bug reports in there18:30
nxvlthere are debian bugs that maybe are also present in ubuntu18:30
nxvland we need people to check if they are also present18:30
nxvland if it is so try to fix them or include/adapt the debian patch which may be on BTS18:31
nxvlalso you can see on the bottom of the TODO wiki page a table with some bugs18:31
nxvlthere are some unchecked bugs to work with18:32
nxvlthe first table are bitesize ones18:32
nxvlso you can alwas take a look and work with them18:32
nxvlthe table is updated every week (monday ?) so there is always something new18:32
nxvlalso most of them only need a triager18:33
nxvlso don't be scared by hard bugs, you will help a lot changing their status and/or asking for more information from the reporter18:33
nxvlso that the developers can fix them easy18:34
nxvlany questions so far?18:34
nxvlit seems there is no questions18:35
nxvllet's move to TODO/BUGS18:35
nxvlSo, you want to contribute but you don't feel you are ready for edit code and develop bug fixings?18:36
nxvlyou can find som other ways to contribute with bug reports18:36
nxvlhere -> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/TODO/Bugs18:36
nxvl(yes, if you want you can also fix those bugs)18:37
nxvlin those bug "categories"18:37
nxvlthere are some that only need to check if the status if correct18:37
nxvlif it is still present18:37
nxvlor if the work in progress is actually in progress and has not been losed on his way18:38
nxvlit's called triage, you only need to take a look at bug reports and ask for information18:38
nxvlfind the package to which a bug report belongs18:38
nxvltag it or mark it with the correct Status18:38
nxvland some other which are already fixed but the fix isn't included yet18:39
nxvlthat means that someone has included a patch, but hasn't package it18:39
nxvl(yes this happends, my first contribution was a patch of the source which i didn't package)18:39
nxvlso you only need to deal with packaging18:40
nxvlother way to contribute is to ping upstream18:40
nxvlyou need to keep in mind that upstream knows theirs packages well18:40
nxvlso they will maybe find the best solutions for bugs18:40
nxvlso you can not fix the bug but report back to upstream18:41
nxvlor to the debian maintainer by filling a bug on BTS18:41
nxvland this way you help to resolve a bug without coding nothing18:41
nxvlalso you need to coordinate always with upstream because maybe they have already fix this bug or they are working on some patches for it18:42
nxvlso try to avoid the duplicity of efforts and ping them18:43
nxvlLP has also an option to link upstream bug reports to the LP one18:43
nxvlplease use it as much as you can so it's easier to find if upstream has something to say about the report18:43
nxvlbut be carefull, don't report everything, there are some reports of ubuntu and nothing else that ubuntu18:44
nxvlso be carefull and check if it's also present on upstream, it may not be18:44
nxvlis there any questions?18:45
nxvlor something you want to know i haven't talk about?18:45
nxvlare you alive?18:46
* eddyMul thinks he's alive18:46
nxvlheh now i feel less lonely :D18:46
IulianI think this one is pretty easy to understand.18:46
IulianSo, no questions from me.18:47
InsClusoeam here as well.... Picked up a bite sized bug.  :-)18:47
IulianHeh, already?18:47
IulianThat's great!18:47
nxvlsorry i was having conection problems again18:47
nxvlmi ISP is not as good as it should be18:48
Iuliannxvl: Change it then.18:48
nxvlInsClusoe: Great!18:48
nxvlIulian: i at work, so i can't18:48
nxvlso let's move to the mentoring program18:48
nxvli thing i have already give you a lot of resource to work with18:48
nxvlwhen you feel you are a little more involved you can ask for a mentor18:49
nxvl(see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Mentoring)18:49
nxvlwho will help you on your way to become a MOTU18:49
nxvllearn more about packaging18:49
nxvland introduce you to the community18:49
nxvlBUT they won't think for you18:50
nxvlthe will point you to documentation18:50
nxvlask you to reach a goals and/or make some task18:50
nxvland guide your way18:50
nxvlalso he/she will not be your only resource of help18:50
nxvlyou can always attend to the Q&A sessions, or packaging 101 that dholbach always do18:51
nxvlor ask on the #ubuntu-motu IRC channel18:51
nxvlthere is always someone awake that wants to help18:52
nxvldon't feel scare of asking18:52
nxvlalso you can always use the Mailling lists18:52
nxvlor put your questions on the comments of the LP bug reports18:52
nxvlthere is always someone checking them18:52
nxvlwell, now i have made my patch, how do i get it uploaded?18:53
nxvlthere is a sponsoring process and team18:53
nxvlyou only need to suscribe the ubuntu-universe-sponsors or ubuntu-main-sponsors and wait for them to check it and upload them18:54
nxvlbut be patient, keep in mind that all (most?) of us are voluntaries18:54
nxvland have other works and things to do18:54
nxvlnot only ubuntu developing18:55
nxvlSo i think this is it, thanks for comming and have a nice hack18:55
nxvlany one has some last questions?18:55
nxvlor comments?18:55
dustinlangehow much time do you spend on being a MOTU?18:55
nxvlspend is hours in a day or as in time i'm involved?18:56
=== Pricey is now known as PriceChild
nxvlas in*18:56
dustinlangein hours a week or so - or whatever makes sense to you ;-)18:56
nxvldepend on the week18:56
nxvli have a full time work18:56
nxvland MOTU is just a free time hobbie if want to call it so18:57
nxvlthere have been entirely weeks i haven't even check my mail18:57
nxvland some other i spend long time18:57
nxvlbut is up to you18:57
dustinlangeso you can decide how much time you want to spend... ok, thank you18:57
nxvlyep, this is a free time job18:58
nxvlno ones tell you how much time you need to spend18:58
InsClusoeThis might interest some ppl.. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/5-A-Day18:58
nxvlbut if you say you will do something you need to do it (or try to), as you gave your word18:58
nxvlwe have 2 minutres left18:59
nxvland seb128 has already come to talk18:59
nxvlany last question?18:59
seb128nxvl: feel free to finish, I'm not in a hurry ;-)18:59
nxvlseb128: i have not much more to say :D18:59
nxvlseb128: just asking questions18:59
nxvlok, so no one has more cuestions19:00
nxvli think this is it19:00
* nxvl HUGS everyone19:00
* nxvl HUGS everyone19:00
nxvlthanks for comming! i hope it helps you19:00
nxvloh! i was forgoting19:00
dustinlangenxvl, thank you!19:01
nxvlthe MOST important thing to become a MOTU and be involved in Ubuntu is to HUG everyone19:01
nxvlwe are HUGGY Developers :D19:01
nxvlnow it's seb128 time19:01
IulianAww, thanks nxvl19:01
nxvlhe's one of our best Desktop hackers19:01
nxvland his kicking as in the desktop team19:01
nxvlso don't miss his talke19:02
* nxvl waves on seb128 19:02
seb128thanks nxvl19:02
seb128hello everybody19:02
PicklesworthHm... Hello :)19:02
seb128I'm Sebastien Bacher and I'm working in the Ubuntu Desktop Team19:02
seb128I'll start by presenting the team, what we do and how you can contribute19:03
seb128and then we can do questions and answers19:03
seb128 19:03
seb128First, where you can find desktop teams members or read about what the team is doing:19:04
seb128- #ubuntu-desktop on freenode19:04
seb128that's the chan where we hang and discuss work we are doing etc19:04
seb128- ubuntu-desktop@lists.ubuntu.com19:04
seb128IRC is good for quick question, and discussion but the mailing list is also a good place to discuss changes, bugs, et19:04
seb128especially than everybody doesn't use IRC19:05
seb128- https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam19:05
seb128that's the wiki section concerning the team19:05
seb128we have details about the team goals and the work we are doing there19:06
seb128we use https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/TODO for keeping track of what is being currectly working and what we would like to get done for hardy, etc19:06
seb128- the desktop-bugs team on launchpad for bug fixing and triaging19:06
seb128the team has a mailing list which receives all the desktop bugs19:07
seb128if you want to look at the bugs which would be nice to fix for hardy those are assigned to the team and milestone ubuntu-8.0419:08
seb128if you have issue you think should be adressed for the coming lts feel free to discuss with us to get those milestoned19:08
seb128- ubuntu-desktop team on launchpad19:08
seb128that team is not really used yet19:08
seb128but we plan to move packaging to bzr (we did experiment but there it still some work to get that as smooth as apt-get update, change, upload)19:09
seb128and the team members will have access to the packaging19:09
seb128so the membership is limited to known contributors19:09
seb128 19:09
seb128So what is our mission?19:10
seb128basically we try to provide the best desktop experience19:10
seb128for that we:19:10
seb128- keep the desktop components uptodate19:10
seb128the ubuntu team is pretty small and most of the code comes from upstream19:10
seb128we try to make sure their code is available in the current versions and as easy to use that it can be19:11
seb128- work on the usability of our existing desktop and on developing innovating new interface concepts19:11
seb128we have team members working on that19:12
seb128their goal is basically to determine what changes could improve the user desktop experience19:12
seb128and to discuss, design and implement those changes19:12
seb128the team was quite small until recently and we didn't do a lot of those19:13
seb128but that's changing ;-)19:13
seb128- triage and fix desktops bug19:14
seb128we get a lot of bugs19:14
seb128some are user question and redirected to the answer tracker19:14
seb128some are upstream issues and we try to get all the useful details and send them to the upstream bug tracker19:14
seb128some are ubuntu bugs and we try to fix those19:14
seb128we also try to help upstream fixing issues when possible19:15
seb128 19:15
seb128how we are organized?19:15
seb128we use IRC usually for discussion19:16
seb128that's because most of the people and that's a quick way19:16
seb128but we also use the mail list and encourage people to use it too when possible, because there is lot of people not using IRC and giving some activity to the list is good to get new people to participate19:17
seb128anybody can help on bug triage, just go on launchpad and look at the desktop bugs if you want19:17
seb128https://bugs.launchpad.net/~desktop-bugs/ has the list of bugs19:18
seb128there is a lot of those listed there19:18
seb128usually those which need triaging are those in the New state19:19
seb128you might prefer the https://bugs.launchpad.net/~desktop-bugs/+packagebugs view19:19
seb128that one list stats by packages19:19
seb128if you have any question feel free to ask on #ubuntu-bugs or #ubuntu-desktop19:19
seb128 19:19
seb128contributors are also welcome to help updating packages19:20
seb128we use https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/TODO for that19:20
seb128we claim packages update we are working on there19:20
seb128the page is being redesigned right now so there is a list without a lot of things listed19:20
seb128but the goal is to let people know which packages are being actively maintained and which ones are not19:21
seb128if you have special interest in a package and want to be the contact for it let we know ;-)19:21
seb128 19:21
seb128we are also trying to move the packaging to bzr19:22
seb128there is still some usability issue there19:22
seb128but eventually we will manage to do that soon and that will make contributors and reviewer job easier19:22
seb128 19:22
seb128you are also welcome to help fixing issues19:22
seb128if you submit a patch on a bug you can subscribe the ubuntu-main-sponsors team (or universe if the package is there)19:23
seb128we will try to do our best to review the contribution quickly ;-)19:23
seb128and again feel free to ask on IRC, the list or launchpad if you have any question on a bug or if you are trying to work on something and are not sure and what to do19:24
seb128 19:24
seb128if you have idea on what changes we could do to improve the desktop experience19:25
seb128either small things we can change for hardy19:25
seb128or new inovation for the next cycles19:25
seb128you can also join IRC or the list and discuss those19:25
seb128we always welcome ideas and discussions ;-)19:25
seb128 19:25
seb128that's about it for what the team is doing19:26
seb128so if you have questions now feel free to ask in #ubuntu-classroom-chat19:26
seb128I'll pick questions there and reply on this chan19:26
seb128no question then?19:27
seb128<InsClusoe> QUESTION: Will we have a tablet edition like Windows XP does?19:28
seb128I don't think there is anything table specific planned no19:28
seb128the mobile team is working on a mobile edition19:28
seb128I don't know if that's far from what is required on a tablet device though19:28
seb128might be a good project for a team of people interested in tablets though ;-)19:29
InsClusoeHmm... ok.19:29
seb128I know we have applications like xournal which let you take notes on a tablet19:29
seb128and I've seen people using Ubuntu on a tablet19:30
seb128not sure if there is a real need for a specific edition though ;-)19:30
seb128 19:30
seb128next? ;-)19:30
seb128<awalton__> QUESTION: is there a policy for correct units of measure for Ubuntu applications? specifically KiB vs KB and the like?19:30
seb128hum hum19:30
seb128hum hum hum19:30
seb128not really ;-)19:30
seb128we basically use whatever GNOME is using right now19:30
awalton__I guess more specifically, should there be?19:31
seb128that's a controversial topic I think19:31
awalton__or is that better a discussion for the list/later?19:31
seb128there is quite some people who are reluctant to use the new units19:31
seb128I think there was a discussion on #ubuntu-devel some time ago19:32
seb128you can look in the archives19:32
awalton__will do. thank you.19:32
seb128and it has been discussed upstream on the gnome-vfs bugzilla19:32
seb128but none reached a consensus I think19:32
seb128 19:32
seb128<mruiz> QUESTION: How is the relationship with Debian desktop team? How is the procedure to update packages: wait for Debian (and request a sync) or just do it?19:32
seb128that's a good question ;-)19:33
seb128we try to be in sync with Debian when possible19:33
seb128we didn't do an optimal job there until now I think19:33
seb128but we have quite some people in the ubuntu team which are also in debian pkg-gnome19:33
seb128and some active new people who are trying to get packages in sync whenever it's possible19:34
seb128lool, pochu and slomo are good example and have been doing great work there ;-)19:34
seb128we try now to keep the platform packages in sync19:34
seb128desktop applications are not that easy because we often have changes (like launchpad integration) and debian doesn't has the ressources to deal with unstable series packaging19:35
seb128mruiz: does that reply to the question?19:35
seb128we welcome people who try to work with debian to lower the delta ;-)19:36
seb128 19:36
seb128<steffen_> QUESTION: Will there be a no services-on-on-default install-option ;-) for Ubuntu-lite in the future. kind like openbsd does? Will there be "hardened" kernels?19:36
mruizseb128, thanks ;-)19:36
seb128no idea about that, that's not really an ubuntu-desktop thing19:36
seb128that looks rather an installer option or a derivative thing19:37
seb128I don't know about any work being done in this direction19:37
seb128but we have this "no open port" policy by default19:37
seb128which is slightly modified for avahi nowadays19:37
seb128there is an ubuntu-hardened team though, you might want to bring the subject there19:38
seb128 19:38
seb128<mruiz> QUESTION: Does Desktop team have a mentoring plan to encourage new members (packagers)?19:38
seb128nothing desktop specific no19:39
seb128people usually starts in the MOTU land19:39
seb128we welcome people starting by contributing on desktop packages and are happy to reply to their questions too19:39
seb128we have sponsor teams and there is a mentoring project too19:39
seb128but for most of the packaging there is nothing desktop specific and no need to have a special effort there I think19:40
seb128 19:40
seb128no other question?19:42
=== ember_ is now known as ember
seb128ok, so it seems there is no other questions19:45
seb128thank you everybody19:45
mruizthanks seb12819:45
daishujinThank you!19:45
awalton__thank you seb128.19:45
seb128anybody interested in joining the team maybe? ;-)19:46
* ember hugs seb12819:46
awalton__+1 from me seb.19:46
seb128ah, another question19:46
seb128<InsClusoe> QUESTION: How is usability measured? Like for example, take the shutdown dialog. When you decide that the user is getting swamped with too many confusing choices... maybe all he needs is 3 or 4 simple buttons most of the time?19:46
seb128InsClusoe: usually we discuss changes at UDS, write specs, get those approved and implement the changes19:47
seb128the process is open and you are welcome to participate in discussions or comment on the spec, etc19:47
seb128speaking about this dialog, that is being redesigned19:48
seb128the spec is listed on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DesktopTeam/Specs19:49
InsClusoeseb128: Great.. Thanks. Can't wait to see the new dialog. Apologies. I didn't notice that you had closed the session and popped my question.19:49
seb128that's likely something that will be worked next cycle19:49
seb128InsClusoe: I didn't really close, we still have some minutes, we just ran out of questions ;-)19:50
seb128 19:50
seb128<snewland> QUESTION to you actively solicit user input for these types of questions?19:50
seb128having users opinion is always something useful ;-)19:51
seb128the distribution is for users19:51
seb128but better to have constructive comments19:51
seb128one way users comment about those specification is usually by adding comments on the wiki pages19:51
snewlandbut do you ACTIVELY seek it or just hope it happens?19:52
seb128you can also write to the list if you have a specific concern19:52
seb128the process is open, we mail about specifications, and let know that comments are welcome19:52
seb128we do go pinging people to have their opinion though19:52
seb128do you think we could do things better in this perspective?19:53
seb128*comments are welcome* ;-)19:53
seb128 19:53
seb128<daishujin> QUESTION: Along the same lines, do you guys do any usability studies?19:53
seb128 19:53
seb128as said the team was pretty small until now and we didn't really have ressources for that19:54
seb128now we have people working on usability in the team19:54
daishujinso there are plans for this the?19:54
seb128in the limit of what we can do with the ressources we have19:55
hltpyldrSorry to be a late arrival.  When do these sessions occur on #ubuntu-classroom?  Are they geared towards packaging?  Will these sessions continue through the week, or for today only?  I am new to #ubuntu-classroom.  Thanks!19:55
seb128hltpyldr: you have those informations in the topic I think19:55
hltpyldrthank you.19:56
seb128the session slot is over19:56
seb128thanks everybody19:57
seb128next on the schedule is "SRU/Security Updates"19:57
DktrKranzhere we are :)19:57
DktrKranzHello everybody, you brave souls interested in post-release madness!19:58
DktrKranzI am Luca Falavigna, a volunteer MOTU and SRU enthusiast.19:58
DktrKranzas seb128 just said, now we speak about SRU and Security Updates19:59
DktrKranzNow I'll introduce briefly what SRUs are and leave room for some questions before talking about the process behind Ubuntu updates.19:59
DktrKranzAfter that, William Grant (aka Fujitsu) will talk about security updates.19:59
* Fujitsu waves.19:59
DktrKranzSRU is the acronym for Stable Release Updates.20:00
DktrKranzThese updates are meant to fix non security-related bugs affecting supported Ubuntu releases (currently they are Dapper, Edgy, Feisty and Gutsy).20:00
DktrKranzCommon examples include packages which fail to build from source, have unmet dependencies or crasher bugs, but has no direct security impact (such as20:00
DktrKranzprivilege escalation or buffer overflows).20:00
DktrKranzSince stable releases are used by a much wider audience than development ones, additional care should be involved in the process, but it is quite simple anyway :)20:01
DktrKranzStarting point is https://wiki.ubuntu.com/StableReleaseUpdates, where you will find every informations related to SRUs.20:02
DktrKranzPlease everybody have a look at it :)20:02
DktrKranzNot every bit is useful for common users/developers, basically just the first half is ("Why", "When" and "How" up to point No. 2).20:02
DktrKranzIf you haven't questions, let's move to the playground, then20:04
=== R1CHARD_jam1ng is now known as R1CHARD
DktrKranzWhen a bug is SRU-worthy? It is described in "When" section in https://wiki.ubuntu.com/StableReleaseUpdates.20:05
DktrKranzIf your favourite app crashes or it is uninstallable, a SRU will be granted :)20:05
DktrKranzThere are many other cases, and they are listed in the above page. Have a good look at it.20:06
DktrKranz~motu-sru team is responsible to approve a SRU candidates for Universe packages, ~ubuntu-sru does the same for main packages.20:07
DktrKranzIf you want a bug to be reviewed, just subscribe the right team and provide the informations required in "How", "Propose" section.20:08
DktrKranzThe most important ones you need to provide are:20:08
DktrKranz1) A good TEST CASE, placed into the bug description field, stating how to reproduce the bug (step by step) and the expected behaviour.20:09
DktrKranz2) Explain if (and how) the problem has been fixed into the development version (Hardy, at the moment), this way we avoid regressions.20:09
DktrKranzUsually, we don't upload SRU candidates if development version has not been fixed20:10
DktrKranz3) Attach a candidate debdiff for review. It must contain code to fix the given bug *only*, no additional (or cosmetic) changes are allowed unless approved in another SRU request.20:11
DktrKranzWhen preparing debdiffs, the most difficult part of the process is writing the changelog entry. I've seen several SRU candidates rejected due to inaccuracies in changelog, so additional care is a must here :)20:12
DktrKranzA good changelog entry must have these requisites:20:13
DktrKranz1) Point to the corresponding Launchpad bug (LP: #xxxxxx). *Always* remember to double-check it to be correct.20:13
DktrKranz2) Target must always be "$release-proposed". "$release" or "$release-updates" are not allowed. For instance, if you want to prepare a SRU for Gutsy, target must be gutsy-proposed. You can use "dch -D $release-proposed" command to set it automatically.20:14
DktrKranz3) Version must be set in order to avoid conflicts with past, current or future versions of the package.20:15
DktrKranzVersioning scheme is a bit different from the one you usually see in development releases, it is not complex but has several variants to avoid conflicts (as mentioned above).20:15
DktrKranzA couple of examples now:20:16
DktrKranzfoo_0.1-1ubuntu1 would become foo_0.1-1ubuntu1.1 (we add ".1" to the existing version)20:16
DktrKranzbar_0.2-1 would become bar_0.2-1ubuntu0.1 (ubuntu0.1 is used to avoid conflicts with a hypotetical bar_0.2-1ubuntu1 in a newer release).20:17
DktrKranzIf you have doubts about which version to use, you can ask ~motu-sru or ~ubuntu-sru team members for an advice, they will be happy to answer :)20:18
DktrKranzOk, let's stop here, feel free to ask if you have questions.20:18
DktrKranzIt seems not, so let's move on.20:21
DktrKranzIf you are not developers, you can help to check if a SRU candidate is good.20:22
DktrKranzhttp://people.ubuntu.com/~ubuntu-archive/pending-sru.html is a wonderful place to start. It lists SRU candidates still lying in -proposed and which require verification from ~sru-verification team.20:22
DktrKranzAgain, please everybody have a look at it.20:22
DktrKranzAs users, you can pick up one of the package listed there and try to test if it works for you.20:23
DktrKranzJust follow instruction given in TEST CASE (that's why a good TEST CASE is required: it speeds up verification phase) and attach your results in the corresponding bug report.20:24
DktrKranzYour reports will improve overall quality of the SRU process, so a huge thank you for your precious comments :)20:24
DktrKranzIf you have questions, please fire them.20:25
DktrKranzAfter that, Fujitsu will discuss about security updates.20:26
DktrKranz<InsClusoe> DktrKranz: Looking at feisty on that page. All updates appear to be language packs. How do we test them? The launchpad page doesn't list the bugs fixed in those updates or details of changes made.20:27
DktrKranzYou are right, langpacks have been recently uploaded20:28
DktrKranzI think they do not receive special verification, since it is a procedure put in place by our archive-admins20:28
DktrKranzThey are regularly scheduled for translation updates20:29
DktrKranz<InsClusoe> QUESTION: What are the changes we should look for if we try these translation updates on our machines? Where are these listed?20:30
DktrKranzChanges should be related to translation itself20:31
DktrKranzTypos, untraslated strings, and so on. Log is kept in Rosetta.20:31
InsClusoeok.. I was looking for the word 'Rosetta' then.. :-)20:33
DktrKranzRosetta is Launchpad translation platform20:33
DktrKranzI'm not comfortable with Rosetta enough to detail how it works, it could be material for an interesting #ubuntu-classroom session :)20:35
InsClusoeDktrKranz: Thanks...20:37
DktrKranzFujitsu, audience is yours!20:37
* Fujitsu appears.20:37
FujitsuSecurity updates are pushed out to fix important security issues in supported Ubuntu releases.20:38
FujitsuThe preparation is very similar to SRUs, in that the changes must be absolutely minimal, and very well tested.20:38
FujitsuUnfortunately, the nature of security issues often means we need the update pushed out ASAP, so testing often can't be done as much as we'd like.20:39
FujitsuIt's a messy job, but someone needs to do it, and we need as many hands on it as we can get.20:40
FujitsuThe wiki page describing the procedure is at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityUpdateProcedures.20:41
FujitsuThere are a couple of differences from SRUs, the main one being that there is no waiting period in -proposed (the packages don't go into -proposed at all), so no verification team.20:42
FujitsuA member of the Canonical security team reviews the patch, and publishes it immediately if it's deemed suitable.20:42
FujitsuThis is another difference from the SRU procedure. Only the Canonical security team can upload to -security, so updates often block on them.20:43
FujitsuOf course, before we can fix issues, we need to identify and prioritise them.20:44
FujitsuWe have the ubuntu-cve tracker for this, which reads the published list of CVEs, and allows us to mark which packages and Ubuntu releases are affected by each issue, if any.20:45
FujitsuIt's quite a task to keep it up to date, unfortunately.20:45
Fujitsu(it can be found at https://launchpad.net/ubuntu-cve)20:45
InsClusoeFujitsu: Broken link^?20:46
FujitsuArgh, true. ubuntu-cve-tracker, sorry.20:46
InsClusoenp.. :-)20:46
FujitsuVersioning in security updates can be very hard to get right, as we normally use an identical scheme to that used in SRUs.20:48
FujitsuThis means that unless very careful checking is done, SRUs can be accidentally reverted in security updates, or vice-versa.20:49
FujitsuAny questions?20:50
Fujitsu< daishujin> QUESTION: Why use the same versioning scheme?20:52
FujitsuWe need to maintain compatibility between the two versioning schemes so we can have SRUs upgrading over security updates (once the security update is integrated), and potentially vice-versa.20:53
FujitsuIf we chose a radically different scheme, this would be much harder, and you'd end up with horrible hybrids in many packages by the end of a release's support cycle.20:53
Fujitsu< daishujin> QUESTION: How often is this a problem?20:54
FujitsuNot very frequently, I don't believe, but I haven't got any numbers.20:54
FujitsuIt's normally fairly easily resolvable, though it may require coordination with SRU teams to get an updated SRU out quickly.20:55
DktrKranzpending-sru has "Superseded by -security" section which notes that.20:57
FujitsuAh yes, forgot about that.20:58
FujitsuWell, that'd be the end, I guess... Any last-30-seconds questions?20:59
jsauerThanks, DktrKranz and Fujitsu21:05
DktrKranzanytime :)21:05
DktrKranzThis is all for today. Hope to meet you here tomorrow!21:06
* InsClusoe thanks DktrKranz and Fujitsu for their time and effort.21:06
jsauerrarely hugging after this session ;)21:07
eddyMuljsauer: not true21:07
* eddyMul hugs jsauer21:07
jsauernice, ;)21:07
daishujinsee ya tomorrow guys21:08
eddyMulwishing there's a /we IRC command. Then we can do "/we group hug"   :)21:08
=== barcc__ is now known as barcc
=== keffie_jayx is now known as effie_jayx

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