[00:11] During this launchpad outage, are emailed bug updates to *@bugs.launchpad.net being queued such that those bugs will be updated accordingly when Launchpad comes back online? [00:14] kiko, they should be, yes [00:14] er [00:14] kirkland, ^^ [00:15] habit :-) [00:19] Rinchen: cool, thanks ;-) [00:20] Rinchen: I'll step back out so that kiko gets his "ki" back ;-) [00:20] lol [00:20] :-) bye [01:03] The maintenance pages says "We plan to make new a Launchpad release on:" which reads funny to me [01:06] is launch pad supposed to be down right now? [01:06] kthakore: yes, /topic [01:06] and http://news.launchpad.net/maintenance [01:06] oh UTC [01:06] sorry I had the time as 11:00 [01:07] PST [01:07] my mistake [01:11] how come there was no warning all day when i was using it? [01:11] there was a countdown for the last hour or so [01:12] oh, of course i haven't touched it in 3 hrs or so :) [01:30] Goooooooooooooooooood afternoon Launchpadders! [01:34] hello mpt [01:34] mpt: we aren't launchpadding at the moment [01:37] We're not? [01:37] o i c [01:40] heya mpt [01:41] hiya Hobbsee [01:41] I should take this time to figure out why the offline message isn't centered [01:46] aha [01:46] .offline {text-align: center; max-width: 30em; margin: 2em auto;} [01:47] the "margin: 2em auto;" isn't centering it like it's supposed to [01:52] Man, i wish there was some way i could check what time it is at LP HQ [01:53] Balaams_Miracle: always UTC :-) [01:54] thumper: except when its not :) [01:55] lifeless: whaddya mean? [01:55] Heh, but how do i know what time is UTC? [01:55] Balaams_Miracle: it depends, where are you? [01:56] I mean, i'm in the Netherlands. [01:56] Balaams_Miracle: isn't it almost 3am there? [01:56] Yes, 2:56 it says [01:56] by running 'date --utc' or such [01:56] Balaams_Miracle: you're UTC +1 [01:56] so subtrace an hour [01:56] Ah, thanks. One more hour to go then... [01:56] subtract [01:57] * Balaams_Miracle is already getting withdrawal symptoms [01:57] Need... fix... Must... wait... [02:01] Balaams_Miracle: ntp.ubuntu.com [02:02] Nafallo: Yes, that's a time server. I don't know what you are getting at. [02:03] Balaams_Miracle: it is in the same location as the LP servers. [02:03] Nafallo: Yes, but my PC isn't. [02:04] that wasn't the point... [02:04] oh well. [02:05] thumper: dst [02:24] hey, how much longer is launchpad down for? [02:24] i'm too lazy to convert timezones [02:24] dmb: /topic [02:25] elmo: i'm too lazy to convert timezones [02:25] dmb: I'm too lazy to do it for you. [02:25] can you at least tell me if this was the hour that it started? [02:25] its now 1325 AEDT [02:26] I'm fairly certain he can. [02:26] ok, thanks [02:26] thats all i needed to know :D === mpt changed the topic of #launchpad to: https://launchpad.net/ || Next meeting (all welcome): Thu 21 Feb 2008, 1800UTC #launchpad-meeting | Help: https://help.launchpad.net | Questions: https://answers.launchpad.net/launchpad | Channel logs: http://irclogs.ubuntu.com [02:45] New bug: #193857 in launchpad-bazaar "cherrypy error on unmirrored branches" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/193857 [02:46] New bug: #193845 in malone ""Sort by importance" sorts "Unknown" (from external bug trackers) on top" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/193845 [02:48] Am I reading the LP front page correctly... I'm now automatically subscribed to any bug I comment on? [02:50] Woah. The "Delete Cache" page action may want some renaming :) [02:54] I suspect that hitting "add checked words to dictionary" is not meant to result in "An error occurred in a Python script" [03:04] ScottK, no, but you can subscribe to all the bug reports associated with a milestone/project/package/distribution [03:05] For example, you could subscribe to Ubuntu upstart and be notified of all bug reports about that package [03:05] But I could do that before. [03:06] How? [03:06] Make myself a bug contact for the package [03:07] https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/clamav bug subscriptions as an example of one I've been subscribed to for a long time [03:10] ScottK: the idea is to separate out the idea of being a "bug contact" (someone responsible for QA) and a "subscriber" [03:11] * mpt scratches his head at "For Ubuntu: There are no bug subscriptions" [03:11] That doesn't make sense [03:11] ScottK: someone doing QA may be given permissions to e.g. alter bug importances (something a project may want to restrict), which a subscriber wouldn't be able to [03:12] mpt: it just has a bug contact ... [03:13] I mean, it's not true [03:13] There are thousands of bug subscriptions in Ubuntu [03:14] I think it means "Nobody is subscribed to all of Ubuntu's bugs" [03:14] (which isn't true, there's a mailing list for them) [03:16] yeah [03:18] I see. Well I never ascribed any more to bug contact than I got sent a copy of the bug [03:20] Signing up as bug contact doesn't give any extra powers, so I really don't understand the difference? [03:23] Maybe now the term can be changed to something more obvious [03:23] Dunno. AFAICT you've just invented a new feature functionally identical to the old one. [03:24] I don't know if it was possible to have multiple package bug contacts in the past [03:24] but it wasn't possible to have multiple people subscribed to all bugs for a distribution or project, unless a dummy team was created to put them in. [03:24] The clamav example I showed a few minutes ago had three and has had for a long time. [03:25] So this might not be anything new for packages, but it's new for projects and distributions. And milestones. [03:25] OK. That I can see. You might correct the description then. [03:36] "Subscribe to bugmail"? [03:37] oh, "bug mail" [03:37] ScottK: there were no extra powers given to "bug contacts" previously because there were no restrictions on who could become a bug contact [03:38] that'll change in future [03:38] jamesh: Are there restrictions now? [03:38] So are all the current bug contacts going to be automatically downgraded then? [03:39] ScottK: all bug contacts were converted to subscriptions [03:40] ScottK: and it isn't exactly a downgrade, since it is giving you the same features as before [03:40] OK. [03:40] but you can now also subscribe to projects [03:40] and the subscription support can be extended to more than just bugs [03:41] New bug: #193870 in malone "Source package page makes false claims about "Bug subscriptions"" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/193870 [03:41] * ScottK didn't file that one. [03:41] jamesh: None of which sounds like it's of any interest to Ubuntu developers, just other projects. [03:42] BTW, I did read the feature announcement. This is all very confusing. [03:43] ScottK: it might not offer much benefit yet, but that will change in future [03:43] "Launchpad automatically sends you emails whenever there's an update to a bug that you've reported, is assigned to you or that you've commented on." sounds to me like any bug I comment on I'll start getting bug mail on. [03:43] heh - I was here before - but I forgot who I was speaking too - who is the pastebinit creator again ? [03:44] ScottK: one of the planned features is to allow more fine grained control over the notifications too [03:45] ScottK: e.g. you might only care when bugs are created or fixed for a package, but not care about every single comment made to those bugs [03:46] OK, but how does changing bug contacts to bug subscriptions help that? So far you've just changed the name. [03:47] just think of it as a new name for the old feature that more accurately describes its purpose, if that helps. [03:47] Then don't announce it as a NEW feature. [03:48] ... it _is_ a new feature [03:48] Not for packages it's not. It's got a new name with no functional differences [03:49] e.g. you couldn't previously subscribe to all bugs targeted at ubuntu-8.04, for instance === fabbione is now known as thegodfather [03:49] That's true, but unrelated to packages. [03:50] I'm not saying that for milestones, projects, etc it's not new, but for packages it's not new. [04:05] New bug: #193872 in malone "Can't subscribe to all something's bug reports from its Bugs page" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/193872 [04:05] New bug: #193873 in launchpad "Nobody wants to "Subscribe to bug mail"" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/193873 [04:30] any ppa hackers around? [04:33] poolie: devs? users who know far too much about ppa? [04:35] devs, i guess [04:36] but i worked it out - packages with builddep problems [04:36] don't generate an error, or at least not for a very long time [04:37] PPA does need improvements w.r.t. timely status updates [04:37] yes [04:42] poolie: you don't get the generated mail? [04:44] Hobbsee: There's no mail that I've noticed when your PPA package hits depwait. [04:44] RAOF: oh, depwait, yeah [04:44] i think it would be nice if you got, say, [04:45] one mail if it can't immediately be built, or not within 5m [04:45] and another after say 7d, saying "Giving up" [04:46] Or, rather, tell you immediately if the package it's waiting on isn't also in your PPA's build queue. [04:46] Or, in fact, shedule the builds based on dependency information :) [04:46] RAOF: you'd probably need the global builds stuff to do that, though. [04:46] well, something like that [04:46] the main point is, _say something_ [04:47] Hobbsee: Oh, I'm sure the reason it's not done like that already is that the infrastructure doesn't support it. [04:47] It'd be nice if the infrastructure _did_ support it, though :) [04:47] RAOF: build deps are NPC [04:48] * RAOF tries to parse as Not Pre Calculateable [04:48] RAOF: npcomplete [04:48] non polynomial [04:48] lifeless: Which doesn't mean that you can't solve it. [04:48] Just that it scales insanely. [04:49] For the record, I'd use NP-C for NP-complete ;) [04:49] right; so like many things 'good' but not 'correct' answers are possible with better scaling [04:49] RAOF: dream about it. but really, don't expect it anytime soon. [04:49] AIUI thats what happens here [04:50] I wasn't actually after trawling the entire dependency chain. Just 'I upload foo which depends on bar, and bar at the same time, please try to build bar first'. [04:50] build deps are non-player characters [04:51] Another valid parsing :) [04:51] in https://edge.launchpad.net/~bzr/+archive, bzrtools 1.2.0-1~bazaar2~edgy1 seems to be a native package or something [04:52] at any rate it has just a .tar, not an orig and diff [04:52] i wonder why [04:52] RAOF: reprio'ing ftw. [04:52] RAOF: and uploading in order, with sufficient gaps, preferably with a script or something, ftw too. [04:52] another approach would be to give people a button saying "build this now" [04:52] or what Hobbsee said [04:52] poolie: [04:52] poolie: That button exists. [04:52] poolie: and how many people do you think *won't* hit that button? [04:53] RAOF: sure, but few have access to it [04:53] really? where? [04:53] Hobbsee: I'm talking about PPAs right now. Isn't anyone else? [04:53] you cant see it if you're not a buildd admin. [04:53] you can't rescore for ppa, or ubuntu, unless you're a buildd admin [04:53] am i misunderstanding you? [04:54] Maybe I'm misunderstanding you. There _is_ a *re*build this now button. [04:54] RAOF: afaik, everyone's talking about ppa's here [04:54] poolie: "view build records", find the failed build and there is an item in the actions menu to retry it [04:54] RAOF: oh sure. after it's failed. [04:54] RAOF: what i think poolie's asking for is "let me specify the build order of my packages *before* they go thru and fail" [04:55] it still apperas to take a lot longer than it should for builds to fail, and then have to redo all the builds, in order [04:55] Yeah. === pooli1 is now known as poolie === stu2 is now known as stub === doko_ is now known as doko === mwhudson__ is now known as mwhudson [07:49] morning [07:50] guten morgen carlos! Wie gehts? [07:51] Hobbsee: I understand the first part, I guess the second part is something like "How's going?", right? [07:52] Hobbsee: so, I'm fine, thanks :-P and you? [07:52] yeah :) [07:52] * Hobbsee is doing OK. dealing with email [09:01] hi [09:11] will #193656 be fixed for next code update? [09:11] bug #193656 [09:11] Launchpad bug 193656 in soyuz "Process-death-row procedure became very slow" [Critical,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/193656 - Assigned to Celso Providelo (cprov) [09:12] As it's critical, it may be fixed within days. If it's not, it will be fixed in about a month. [09:16] Fujitsu: ok... until then i'm stuck, i want to upload a pkg to my PPA but it's always rejected because the old .orig.tag.gz remains on the pool :( [09:21] could someone remove the files from my pool please? ;) [09:22] philn__: When did you delete them? That bug may not be your problem. [09:22] about 13 hours ago [09:23] I suggest waiting a while longer, or incrementing the version number. [09:24] ah you mean the upstream version number [09:25] https://edge.launchpad.net/ddclient -> how do I remove this? [09:25] i've registered it [09:28] Kmos: Why should it be removed? [09:29] Fujitsu: because I support it, and I like to remove it [09:29] It's a valid project, and has no reason to be removed. [09:29] or else, give another person the register status [09:29] Right, that's different. [09:29] but it has my contact [09:29] Assign it to registry. [09:29] ~registry, that is. [09:30] how to do it ? [09:30] Change owner, or registrant, or whatever it is. There are three different terms used on the page for that one thing. [09:32] i'll do it [09:32] thanks [09:32] "maintainer" is there too [09:32] lol [09:32] That's it, yes. [09:33] There's no person/team named '~registry' in Launchpad. [09:33] ups [09:33] without the ~ [09:33] done [09:34] Bug contact: Marco Rodrigues [09:34] Security contact: Marco Rodrigues [09:34] still mine [09:34] lol [09:34] You need to remove yourself as both. [09:36] that was before i change maintainer [09:36] now i can't change anything [09:36] :( [09:36] Can one really not remove oneself from either of those positions!? [09:36] i don't think so [09:36] That's almost as crazy as Blueprint's assigning. [09:37] the menu links to do that, have been disabled [09:37] after i change maintainer [09:37] is there a way on launchpad to get bzr repos using rsync? [09:37] TankEnMate: What's wrong with HTTP? [09:37] Fujitsu: could you report i as bugg? :) [09:37] *bug [09:37] bzr initial checkouts are a big turn off [09:37] Kmos: You'll need to poke an admin to remove you as them, then. I may well file a bug on that. [09:37] TankEnMate: If you own the branch, you can use bzr+ssh. [09:38] Fujitsu: thanks [09:38] i just did a bzr initial check out, it took over 5 minutes, used over 500M of RAM and blew away my file cache... [09:38] Fujitsu: or in general have access to? [09:38] LarstiQ: Only if you have write access, no? [09:38] TankEnMate: 500M RAM!? [09:38] Fujitsu: that is what I meant indeed. (So membership of team owning it also works) [09:38] I used bzr+ssh to check out.. it took ages, sucked everything into RAM and only _then_ wrote out.. [09:39] LarstiQ: Being a member of the team that owns it means you own it. [09:39] Fujitsu: fair enough, I disagree on the terminology, but I understand you now :) [09:39] If I didn't have to check this stuff out it would have turned my right off... [09:39] TankEnMate: How big is the branch? [09:39] F: just a tick [09:39] I have a branch or two that takes hours, but it's gigantic. [09:39] Most take a few seconds. [09:40] 489M . [09:40] 5 minutes for 489M isn't bad. [09:40] F: why does it want to suck everything into RAM first?!? what a waste! [09:41] TankEnMate: That'd be bzr's problem. [09:41] A check out should really be nothing more than a straight copy of the head [09:41] bzr co --lightweight [09:41] TankEnMate: that would be a lightweight checkout, not a full one [09:41] Yeah I know it is bzr's problem, then why use bzr, but thats a whole different kettle of fish.. [09:42] bzr works really well most of the time. [09:42] Ahhh maybe for first timers checking out a tree you should inform them to do a lightweight checkout.. [09:42] F: I must admit I am used to git [09:46] Hmm I'm going to email the ubuntu desktop course guys and get them to mention the lightweight checkout for first timers.. [09:46] TankEnMate: what version of bzr were you using? [09:46] TankEnMate: and what format is the tree in, also does it have very large files? we generally flush stuff to disk as soon as each delta is verified [09:46] 1.0-1~gutsy1 (/var/lib/apt/lists/gb.archive.ubuntu.com_ubuntu_dists_gutsy-backports_main_binary-i386_Packages) (/var/lib/dpkg/status) [09:46] TankEnMate: you will find 1.2 to be better [09:47] lifeless: ack [09:47] TankEnMate: doing a lightweight checkout is probably not the right thing for first timers; lightweight checkouts have no local history, so it performs worse overall. [09:47] lifeless: bzr 1.2 isn't in backports though.. [09:47] TankEnMate: its in the bzr team ppa [09:47] lifeless: so how to do a quick clone then? [09:48] lifeless: ack, I'm just trying to figure an easy way to make first time d/ls for large repos not have to have to jump through too many hoops [09:49] TankEnMate: 'bzr branch' or 'bzr checkout' (depending on whether you want a new branch or commit access to an existing branch) [09:49] TankEnMate: thats all thats needed. [09:50] lifeless: yes, but it chews soo much memory.. [09:50] over 500M on my machine to check out.. [09:50] TankEnMate: in 1.0. Which has an older network protocol that is less efficient. [09:50] and it only starts writing out files once its all in RAM.. [09:50] TankEnMate: test with the current release; then discuss with bzr upstream. [09:51] lifeless: would there be support for 1.2 to go into the official gutsy backports then? [09:51] When it's in Hardy, it will most likely be backported. [09:51] TankEnMate: you're wrong about the behaviour of bzr in general; whatever you saw is likely a result of backwards compatibility code kicking in. [09:51] A FeatureFreeze exception has been granted for bzr 1.2 [09:51] TankEnMate: thats really unrelated, there is gutsy support in the bzr +ppa. [09:51] lifeless: ahh [09:51] later folk [09:52] lifeless: I'm trying to get this to work for uneducated desktop users.. [09:52] Why do they need such a ridiculously massive tree? [09:52] Fujitsu: its user documentation :) [09:53] Fujitsu: I think I'll just have to set up a server that does nightly builds of the documentation and ships it out to the users... [09:53] Fujitsu: it is for translators.. [09:54] Fujistsu: they have good natural language skills, not so good computer skills.. [09:54] Why not just ship out a tarball of the branch once, and have them pull the branch regularly? [09:54] Fujistsu: thats what I was hoping to avoid.. but looks like I will have to do something similar.. [09:55] You only have to do it to each machine once. [09:55] Fujistsu: I'll probably wind up just burning stuff on to DVDs with a few scripts and send it to them in the post.. [09:56] That and bzr 1.2 debs [09:57] Fujistsu: can bzr do deltas on binary files? or will it just copy then new ones down in toto? [09:58] It does binary deltas. [09:58] w00t good stuff [09:59] Fujistsu: Do you have the bzr +ppa URI handy? [09:59] https://launchpad.net/~bzr/+archive, most likely. [09:59] ack, thanks! [10:01] how stable are ppa debs? Good enough to just push to j. random user? [10:02] Gooooooooooooooooood evening Launchpadders! [10:02] TankEnMate: surely that depends on how stable the source is? [10:02] pick the Aussie :) [10:03] Hobbsee: Thats kind of what I was asking.. [10:03] * Fujitsu welcomes mpt back to a sane timezone. [10:03] TankEnMate: right, so if you upload a stable source, then the binary will be stable. [10:03] hte converse is also true [10:04] The bzr devs are one of the only upstreams I trust to make their own packages. [10:04] Hobbsee: not know what ppa stands for I don't have any feel for it.. [10:04] F: Thanks.. [10:04] TankEnMate: personal package archives? [10:05] I am a Debian user origionally, i use sid myself, but in the past have given stable to clients.. [10:05] Hobbsee: thanks! [10:05] I am moving to Ubuntu because it is more up to date for my clients.. [10:06] danilos: hello! could you quickly help me with a rosetta export? I got a tarball that looks like this: http://paste.ubuntu.com/4820/ - why are some po files put into the toplevel dir and some under main/ ? (main is the name of the component) [10:07] mvo: the ones under 'main/' are probably existing translations, and the ones in toplevel are those which have been newly translated in Launchpad [10:07] mvo: I can try fixing it manually, though [10:08] danilos: aha! thanks [10:08] mvo: (i.e. on import, they were inside main/...) [10:08] danilos: right, so those were not touched since the import, but the other ones were? [10:09] mvo: well, it's not actually that useful information [10:09] mvo: it's only that those in main/ have existed in the package as well [10:10] mvo: and I can't actually fix them from the UI; carlos, do we have an existing bug for this (if you happen to know, since we had a similar complaint recently)? [10:11] danilos: yeah, we have a bug about it [10:11] let me look for it... [10:11] carlos: thanks [10:11] danilos, carlos: its not urgent, I was just curious about it [10:14] https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/rosetta/+bug/148286 [10:14] Launchpad bug 148286 in rosetta "multiple template export has wrong directory names" [High,Confirmed] [10:15] brb [10:30] New bug: #193940 in rosetta "Import queue UI will link to inactive products" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/193940 [11:12] poolie: good mail [11:13] * Fujitsu checks how far read-only-launchpad has been deferred. [11:14] Fujitsu: it doesn't matter how long it's been deferred currently. they'll just keep redeferring it by a month, as they wish. [11:18] So... How's the trolling business these days? [11:19] Fujitsu: TankEnMate: I think you are reinventing the wheel if you ship a tar; bzr _should_ work fine. I repeat - try it with 1.2, if it doesn't do the right thing file bugs. [11:21] * Fujitsu only suggested that as an alternative to shipping lots of tarballs regularly. [11:21] soren: My statement was relevant and quite valid. [11:22] mine was probably trolling, but still quite valid none-the-less. [11:22] still, we have delete now. i can still continue celebrating that. [11:23] Fujitsu: I was referring to Hobbsee. [11:23] soren: I see. [11:24] soren: if i actually had a trolling business...trust me, i'd do it better. [11:24] mm hm. [11:26] * Hobbsee wonders if the rollout docs are finished yet, and if so, where they are [11:29] soren: actually, i'll take my trolling back. with this rollout, they haven't broken the scripts. [11:33] Fujitsu: oh, rock on! we should be able to get old sources now, too! [11:33] Yep, that was cherrypicked a while back. [11:34] Which also unbroke quite a number of other links. [11:34] hadn't been done when i left, i didn't think [11:34] the trouble of going on holidays :P [12:14] Shouldn't launchpad's Code tab be disabled now that that page and its branches are now private? === salgado-afk is now known as salgado === neversfelde|mobi is now known as neversfelde [12:46] Fujitsu: Hobbsee: have you uploaded anything to PPA after the rollout ? [12:46] cprov-out: nope [12:46] cprov-out: i can try if you like, though === cprov-out is now known as cprov [12:47] Hobbsee: yes, I would like you to try. It's super-fast ;) [12:47] * Hobbsee uploads [12:48] Build creation? Or something is even more super-fast? [12:49] * Hobbsee waits [12:49] Fujitsu: yes, build creation on upload-time. [12:50] Yay! [12:50] Very nice. [12:50] \o/ [12:50] That is one of the most common questions of late. [12:51] Fujitsu: yes, but now it's *past* :) [12:51] cprov: oh wow! [12:51] build's already started, too! [12:52] wlel done! [12:52] ... wow. [12:52] well that strikes me as luck :) [12:54] and now it says pending. [12:54] Oh, building from accepted in PPA too? [12:54] Hobbsee: great, your moin binaries ETA was 5 minutes [12:54] cprov: was? [12:55] Ooh, changelog on +archive too. [12:55] hi [12:55] publisher is running (:00) [12:55] Fujitsu: yeah, bigjools did that a while ago [12:55] And publishing stuff.... Very nice. [12:55] hey seb128 [12:55] does anybody there has an idea why gdm launchpad bug comments are sent to their upstream mailinglist? [12:56] cprov: so, are we supposed to be able to access teh binaries as soon as i'ts built? [12:56] seb128: what's the address of the upstream mailing list? [12:56] seb128: All of them!? [12:56] seb128, yes, jcastro and I were talking to the maintainers and they suggested that, but have since found it's not a great idea [12:57] Hobbsee: gdm-list@gnome.org [12:57] seb128, I think they've reverted that -- chat with jcastro [12:57] ok [12:57] kiko: did they give the reason for why? i know amarok was doing the same thing [12:57] at lesat for a while [12:57] Hobbsee: no, they have to reach the archive first (being published) [12:57] could you include the desktop team in the discussion where you are doing such changes? [12:57] Hobbsee, why they didn't like it? [12:57] kiko: yes [12:58] Hobbsee, I guess it was a lot of traffic and they didn't prepare the list subscribers properly [12:58] seb128, talk to jcastro [12:58] kiko: ok, will do, thanks [12:58] kiko: right [12:58] Hobbsee, if you're subscribed and all of a sudden you get this deluge of bugmail.. [12:59] kiko: yeah, true. [12:59] kiko: i have that fun every time a team i belong to suddenly gets subscribed to another thing in launchpad. [12:59] same here [12:59] and i wonder "why the hell did launchpad spam me...again???" [13:00] bonus points for the recent mailing list screwup. [13:00] what's that? [13:00]