[00:02] <Soskel> hi
[00:03] <PriceChild> Hello there Soskel, how can I help?
[00:03] <Soskel> PriceChild is acting extremely irrational by banning me because i was asking for help
[00:03] <Soskel> i actually want to run that command
[00:03] <PriceChild> I will leave this to someone else then.
[00:03] <Soskel> PriceChild: so then unban me
[00:03] <Soskel> he then pms me saying "cool" 
[00:03] <Soskel> wtf?
[00:03] <Soskel> you actually give him ops?
[00:04] <Soskel> is anyone else here?
[00:04] <nalioth> Soskel: what channel?
[00:04] <Soskel> #ubuntu
[00:04] <Soskel> i have no idea why i am banned
[00:04] <PriceChild> Soskel, I have attempted to talk to you in pm. If you want someone else to deal, you have to be patient as they aren't always around
[00:04] <Soskel> you just said you would leave it to someone else
 i am actually trying to run it
 i know exactly what it will do
[00:05] <PriceChild> (might be useful)
[00:05] <Soskel> and then you said "cool"
[00:05] <Soskel> how does that help me?
[00:05] <nalioth> Soskel: you were using a very dangerous command in #ubuntu w/o any explanation as to what it does or can do
[00:05] <PriceChild> Soskel, nali.oth is dealing with your request as you wished.
[00:05] <Soskel> then stop speaking
[00:05] <Soskel> nalioth: dangerous?!?!? 
[00:06]  * nalioth whistles a bit
[00:06] <Soskel> .....
[00:06] <nalioth> Soskel: you will show us respect, please
[00:07] <Soskel> i am responsible for my computer 
[00:07] <nalioth> you were asking about a potentially destructive command in a room full of n00bies
[00:07] <Soskel> they aren't just going to run a random command
[00:07] <nalioth> oh, but they do.
[00:07] <Soskel> well, I was banned for posting a legit question
[00:08] <nalioth> why did you choose #ubuntu to ask it in, when ##linux or ##apple or pretty much any other channel could have helped you?
[00:08] <PriceChild> muted
[00:08] <Soskel> pshhh
[00:08] <Soskel> i can't believe he has ops
[00:08] <nalioth> Soskel: remember the "respect" part?
[00:08] <Soskel> nalioth: ##linus and ##apple are full fo noobs who blindly execute commands
[00:09] <nalioth> Soskel: not hardly
[00:09] <Soskel> and i need help with ubuntu
[00:09] <Soskel> not a mac :)
[00:09] <Soskel> i am trying to run 'rm -rf /' and i get an error saying "cannot remove root directory /"
[00:09] <nalioth> Soskel: perhaps you've been ignoring the /topic in ##apple 
[00:10] <Soskel> .......
[00:10] <Soskel> thank you so much for your help
[00:10] <Soskel> keep up the professional work PriceChild !!!
[00:10] <PriceChild> Our pleasure.
[00:10] <Soskel> bye 
[00:10] <Soskel> i thought you muted me?
[00:10] <PriceChild> you too
[00:11] <PriceChild> originally
[00:11] <PriceChild> cya :)
[00:11] <Soskel> ....
[00:11] <Soskel> ...
[00:11] <Soskel> wow
[00:12] <jussi01> right. 
[00:16] <ubotu> Flannel called the ops in #ubuntu+1 (diamond5pam)
[00:17] <LjL> does he never have some Asimov or such, i wonder
[00:17] <LjL> i don't particularly like poetry
[00:18] <nalioth> he doesn't have much of a selection
[00:24] <PriceChild> that netsplit never came back...
[00:27] <LjL> hm true
[00:28] <LjL> Leguin is not connected
[00:43] <ubotu> FloodBot3 called the ops in #ubuntu-ops-monitor (mass join)
[00:43] <ubotu> FloodBot2 called the ops in #ubuntu-ops-monitor (mass join)
[00:44] <nalioth> yep, so it is
[00:44] <Pici> funky
[01:46] <PriceChild> smirnoff... :)
[01:48] <Jack_Smirnoff> Yes Price, switched to Xchat and trying to get the script and features working
[01:48] <Jack_Smirnoff> Script is in place just trying to get nick to auto identify
[01:48] <nalioth> Jack_Smirnoff: irssi?
[01:48] <Jack_Smirnoff> Xchat
[01:48] <nickrud> Jack_Smirnoff: you've come back from the dark side!
[01:49] <Jack_Smirnoff> NOt by much..
[01:49] <Jack_Smirnoff> using the chanserv.py script
[01:49] <Jack_Smirnoff> Got my channels setup..
[01:50] <nalioth> nickrud: but he's not in the light yet . . .
[01:50] <nickrud> heh. One step at a time, I'm patient
[01:52] <Jack_Smirnoff> nickrud, Do you use xchat?
[01:52] <mneptok> where's chanserv.pl for irssi users?
[01:52] <nickrud> Jack_Smirnoff: yes
[01:52] <PriceChild> mneptok, jdong has it on his jtd.
[01:53] <mneptok> Jockstrap Training Device?
[01:53]  * PriceChild lets jdong explain now he's dropped him in it
[01:55] <Jack_Sparrow> Off to grab a bite and probably fall asleep again..  nickrud catch you later... 
[01:55] <nickrud> Jack_Sparrow: take care
[02:29] <ubotu> FloodBot2 called the ops in #ubuntu-ops-monitor (flood)
[02:29] <ubotu> FloodBot1 called the ops in #ubuntu-ops-monitor (flood)
 is this mostly a newbie chan?
[02:31] <PriceChild> heard a similar statement to that several times today
[02:35] <jdong> mneptok: jtd is jdong-todo, I got pissed at the lack of good TODO list programs and set out to write my own bzr-backed distributed todo list :)
[02:36] <nickrud> omg
[02:39] <LjL> TODO: restore jdong's mental sanity (priority: high, difficulty: huge)
[02:50] <jdong> lol
[02:51] <PriceChild> !jdong
 jdong: yes, but you're FULL OF CRACK!
[03:17] <emma> Hi. 
[03:18] <PriceChild> emma, how can I help then?
[03:18] <emma> I would like to make a very heart felt request that you reconsider the choice to opt-in to the IRSeek logging of the #ubuntu channel.
[03:19] <PriceChild> reasons?
[03:20] <emma> I respect your decision to do that but I think there are compelling reasons not to so if you would hear me out, I could tell you why I hope you will opt-out of that.
[03:20] <PriceChild> That is why I invited you here, to listen to your reasons.
[03:21] <emma> There are two reasons that I think are most important. But first of all I want to say I don't think all logging is the same. I know that anyone at any time could keep a personal log. That doesn't bother or concern me. I also realize that #ubuntu itself might keep a log. That wouldn't be my preference but also wouldn't concern me. 
[03:21] <emma> So here are the two reasons I am passionately opposed to large scale commercial logging such as IRSeek:
[03:22] <PriceChild> What do you mean by 'commercial' ?
[03:22] <Hobbsee> emma: are you aware of http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/ ?
[03:23] <mneptok> jdong: rather than actually *do the shit on the list*. typical hacker.
[03:27] <PriceChild> emma...?
[03:28] <emma> (1) By way of comparison when I am going to post something on Google Groups (Usenet) I may very literally spend all day making sure that it is something I can live with for the rest of my life. But that is not a reasonable burden for a real-time and semi-social medium like chat. Even a support channel like #ubuntu ought to be a comfortable place to share information. The expectation is that you are sharing information with others who ha
[03:28] <emma> ve gathered with you. The expectation is not that everything you say is being broadcast to the world and for all time. 
[03:28] <LjL> (1) it's already all there in our official logs
 The expectation is that you are sharing information with others who have gathered with you. The expectation is not that everything you say is being broadcast to the world and for all time. 
[03:29] <mneptok> if you follow the CoC, i don't see what problem you could have with your archived speech. if you don't follow it, you'll be banned.
[03:29] <PriceChild> I would like to suggest irclogs. is much more permanent than irseek, and will much more easily show up in google.
[03:30] <nickrud> emma: I see your point, but it's too late in this world. the way back machine type archive is the future of communication.
[03:30] <emma> Okay but I have a second argument which bears upon LjL's objection that 'but we already have a log of our own"
[03:31] <emma> I would just say for mneptok that many things have been justified by the idea that 'if you dont do anything wrong you have nothing to worry about'. I just don't think that's a good way to go about deciding on things. Everyone here should know I can be an articulate person, that doesn't mean I am comfortable being put under glass in every chat session. 
[03:32] <emma> Now my second argument: 
[03:33] <emma> (2) I have ethical misgivings about taking the generous content of so many experts who are sharing their knowledge voluntarily, and in their recreational times, and then allowing a large commercial Logger to record that content for their own gain and profit.  
[03:33] <mneptok> emma: that's not at all what i said. what i said was "if you join a *public* IRC channel and follow the conduct guidelines, what content of your speech would you not like archived?"
[03:33] <emma> Note I do not believe this likely to ever apply to an official Ubuntu log itself. But certainly does apply to IRSeek.
[03:33] <mneptok> emma: IRSeek charges money to access the historical data?
[03:34] <PriceChild> How does irseek make money?
[03:34] <PriceChild> What do you mean by 'commercial'?
[03:34] <LjL> mneptok: i think she's thinking like walking around in public streets and being filmed all the time.
[03:34] <mneptok> PriceChild: my guess is Google (or similar) ad revenue
[03:34] <PriceChild> I don't see ads :/
[03:34] <emma> mneptok -- IRseek is a business, just because they have not yet monetized their product does not mean they will not or don't want to. They are not doing it for altruistic reasons. They have a CEO and a marketing vice president.
[03:34] <mneptok> emma: so do we.
[03:34] <emma> PriceChild - They are a business.
[03:35] <mneptok> emma: best delete Ubuntu off your machine *right now*. Canonical has bizdev people!
[03:35] <LjL> emma, remember that Ubuntu itself (well, 99% of the software it's made of at least) can be taken by any commercial entity and sold, or commercialized in pretty much any conceivable way.
[03:35] <emma> mneptok - Then really my second argument (and my first for that matter) is a reason not to be logging anyone on a large scale. It's really not very considerate.
[03:35] <mneptok> emma: "considerate?"
[03:36] <mneptok> emma: if i stand on a public street and talk, anyone and everyone can record what i say.
[03:36] <mneptok> this is no different.
[03:36] <emma> LjL - I don't think that's relevant. I am not an expert myself but I might be some day and there sure are a lot of them in #ubuntu right now. They are doing that out of a sort of kindness. They enjoy helping others and being part of the community that assembles here. It is wrong to be profiting from their content. 
[03:36] <mneptok> emma: who is profiting? and how?
[03:36] <LjL> emma: most of the people who *develop* Ubuntu do it for the same purposes as you mentioned.
[03:36] <emma> mneptok - Yes let me address that also because I hear that quite a bit. This is very important so please don't shut yourself off to what Im about to say. 
[03:37] <emma> LjL -- That's good for them but not really relevant to the people who are giving support and talking about Ubuntu in what they consider to be a conversation amongst people who have gathered together.
[03:38] <LjL> they "consider"? where did they read the contract that said specifically that conversations wouldn't be recorded?
[03:38]  * nickrud kinda likes that his glittering advice is archived for posterity
[03:38] <emma> Now gentlemen I have to ask you for two things: (1) It happens a lot in discussions like this that people start to get inflexible because it starts feeling like a debate and the instinct is to win. It is most important that it not go that way. I respect all you are saying and I want you to listen to me in all good faith as well. 
[03:38] <PriceChild> We are not all gentlemen.
[03:39] <emma> and (2) Please understand that four of you are speaking to me at once so it may be difficult to answer all objections in a linear way, and you might feel like I'm not listening when I am.
[03:41] <emma> Okay now let me speak to what was said about this being "public". I have to tell you all that this is not public. Not in the true sense. For example a public street corner is public. And a public library is public. That those are public is undisputed. And yet, it would certainly be considered unethical to record all the conversations at a public library, broadcast them to the world for all time, and profit from the valuable content of a
[03:41] <emma> ll that surveilance. 
[03:41] <mneptok> emma: you're speaking on behalf of the "experts" that give advice. have you actually asked one?
[03:41] <nickrud> emma you don't have to convince me, in principle I'm on your side. In practice, you're fighting a war that was lost years ago.
[03:42] <emma> An IRC chat room is not a public place like those places even while the equivalent of logging in those places is not tolerable. 
[03:42] <mneptok> emma: and please do not speak of a company profiting off logging, as you can provide no credible evidence that that is even happening.
[03:42] <emma> An IRC chat room is not public. It is 'open to the public' and that is a very different thing. It is like having an 'open house'. Your house is not a public place just because you welcome the public in to it.
[03:43] <emma> An IRC chat room is on a private server and there are ops. Which as you all know very well you do not allow people to speak in your chat rooms in the same way you would have to if it were actually 'public'.
[03:43] <nickrud> emma: not true, that last. I've evicted many people from homeless shelters for the very speech not permitted here
[03:46] <emma> menptok - I believe that is common sense. IRSeek is not doing this for a hobby or for charity. They have a CEO etc -- http://www.bcasol.com/index-4.html
[03:46] <mneptok> emma: that says *nothing*
[03:46] <emma> nickrud - I think that the substance of my argument still stands.
[03:46] <mneptok> emma: Canonical has a CEO. whe have a Marketing Director.
[03:47] <mneptok> emma: my point stands. reference facts in evidence, not your personal hunches.
[03:47] <emma> mneptok - so you think that IRSeek would have a CEO, a Cheive Technical Officer, and a Marketing Director but they have no intentions of monetizing their logging service?
[03:47] <mneptok> emma: monetizing how?
[03:47] <PriceChild> emma, that link says nothing about irseek?
[03:48] <nickrud> PriceChild: ircseek.com about us tab, last link on the page
[03:48] <PriceChild> emma, why shouldn't people be able to make money off of ubuntu as a product? Isn't that one of the aims of the project for most?
[03:48] <PriceChild> nickrud, ah thanks
[03:48] <Hobbsee> emma: please.  i'm not a gentleman.
[03:48] <PriceChild> that's part of the freedom 
[03:48] <mneptok> PriceChild: this argument is a red herring
[03:49] <mneptok> emma: my point stands. reference facts in evidence, not your personal hunches.
[03:49] <emma> PriceChild -- It's hidden a bit.  Go to this link -- http://www.irseek.com/    then go to About, and look down at the very bottom for a tiny link called, 'here' 
[03:49] <nickrud> redherring Hobbsee you haven't been talking
[03:49] <Hobbsee> i was before.  i was afk :P
[03:49] <emma> mneptok -- I've shown that IRSeek has a CEO and is a business. If you really do think that IRSeek is just someone's hobby or is doing this as a charity then we will have to agree to disagree but I'm surprised you think that.
[03:49] <Hobbsee> afaik, though, there's no restrictions on what you can do with the stuff on irclogs.ubuntu.com - so anyone could use it commercially, if they wished
[03:50] <mneptok> emma: Mark Shuttleworth. Gerry Carr.
[03:50] <nickrud> mneptok: no, it's actually a valid point, it's just that it was lost when google and the wayback machine and the idea of 'my gosh, we can save _everything_' became the web's philosophy
[03:50] <emma> mneptok - I'm not sure how the fact that Canonical is a business has any relevance. 
[03:50] <PriceChild> if someone can make money using ubuntu then I wish them the best of luck
[03:50] <PriceChild> I would love to see them succeed.
[03:50] <mneptok> emma: what makes us different from IRSeek?
[03:50] <emma> The problem is not with businesses. I may have a business myself. My problem is with having to associate with businesses and them profiting off of my content without my permission. 
[03:51] <Hobbsee> emma: a question for you
[03:51] <mneptok> emma: you have not proved that is happening.
[03:51] <emma> mneptok - I choose to use Ubuntu like I choose to use Colgate toothpaste.
[03:51] <PriceChild> emma, do not speak in places such as #ubuntu then.
[03:51] <Hobbsee> emma: if irseek, or another business, were to wget the irclogs stuff, would you have objections to that too?
[03:52] <emma> PriceChild I think that's a pretty unfortunate compromise. I hope that you will not close your mind to other alternatives.
[03:52] <PriceChild> emma, we help manage #ubuntu, because we want to aid in supporting users. If irseek believe their project can help spread more support to people then I don't want to get in their way.
[03:53] <emma> Well it's too bad that what I've had to say here could not be more effective. 
[03:53] <PriceChild> gah
[03:53] <mneptok> (i.e. "crap, i didn't win.")
[03:54] <mneptok> ;)
[03:54] <Hobbsee> emma: are you planning on answering me?
[03:54] <emma> I'm getting the feeling like people's minds are consolidating just like hardening cement so I'm not sure there is much more I can say. I hope maybe for a miracle and people will bother to scroll up past the 5 people talking to me all at once and find the things I've said and actually think about them with the rational parts of your brains.
[03:54] <PriceChild> it is not a matter of "i wish you had listened more", its just "we don't agree"
[03:54] <Hobbsee> (before you spit the dummy?)
[03:54] <emma> Hobbsee - I would not endorse that either. 
[03:54] <PriceChild> now you're calling us irrational...
[03:55] <Hobbsee> emma: yet you haven't raised a complaint about that.  you're saying there should be no public irc logs at all then?
[03:55] <mneptok> clever way to diguise you ad hominem remarks
[03:55] <emma> No but I am affirming that you have rational and irrational parts of your brains. I think everyone knows that's true about all human beings. 
[03:55] <emma> Naturally I hope that you will use the rational parts to assess what I've said. 
[03:56] <PriceChild> emma, stop digging. That comment implies we are being only irrational.
[03:56] <nickrud> emma: careful there, you're walking very close to the fallacy of agreement=rational disagreement=irrational
[03:56] <emma> In fact, if I might say, not only did I not call you irrational I actually explictly said you have rational parts of your brain, which is not something I might say about everyone. 
[03:56]  * Hobbsee waits for emma to actually ansewr the question
[03:57] <mneptok> emma: i'll try looking at the somewhat attractive side of your face for a while.
[03:57] <Hobbsee> mneptok: quiet.  let her answer to me.
[03:57] <mneptok> not that i'm calling you ugly. in fact, i just admitted you have somewhat attractive parts.
[03:57] <emma> Hobbsee - Probably the reason I haven't answered you directly very much is because I am one person and you are part of 4 or more people. And you entered into this late.
[03:58] <Hobbsee> emma: let me advise you that i'm not unable to read backscroll
[03:59]  * Hobbsee double checks the backscroll
[04:00] <emma> Okay well in summary. I think that having large commercial scrolling is a bad idea because (1) It's intrusive and does not create a comfortable environment to share information in a setting where you know who you are sharing information with. And (2) Because generous experts are volunteering their time and having their valuable content published so that a company they do not associate with will profit. 
[04:00] <emma> Thank you for your time. I will probably just never say anything in #ubuntu. I know that's not such a great loss to any of you. I care about what's right though. 
[04:00] <emma> Goodnight.
[04:00] <Hobbsee> ....
[04:01] <Hobbsee> so, that nukes forums, public irc, etc
[04:01] <emma> oops, in that above post I said scrolling when I meant logging.
[04:01] <Hobbsee> in fact, you'd have to make sure no one from a company is part of the channel, as they might use it for commercial means
[04:01] <emma> Okay well first of all on forums I literally might take an entire day thinking about what I say and how I'm going to say it.  
[04:01] <emma> And secondly, an IRC channel is not public which i was pretty clear about above.
[04:02] <Hobbsee> what i don't undersatnd about what the great problem with your helpfulness being used for commercial purposes actually is
[04:02] <Hobbsee> well, public irc, ie, not queries
[04:02] <emma> Hobbsee -- If IRSeek would replace my name and only use my ideas but not my exact words I wouldn't have any problem with that.
[04:02] <Hobbsee> that being said, i can't imagine commercial people wanting to trawl thru irc logs to find answers to questions - forums would be easier
[04:03] <emma> You mean consumers I guess.
[04:03] <Hobbsee> emma: a copyright issue, then?
[04:03] <emma> I think so .
[04:03] <no0tic> Hobbsee, it seems the contrary
[04:03] <Hobbsee> no0tic: eg?
[04:03] <emma> I am not too smitten with anything I write being published without my permission and for some one elses gain. 
[04:04] <no0tic> if ircseek _would replace_ her name... she wouldn't have any problem with that
[04:04] <emma> I'm no Ubuntu expert, maybe I will be some day and then it will be #Ubuntu's loss since I won't be talking there.  But I am a writer and I don't want my good writing or my good name associated with IRSeek which I do not trust or endorse.
[04:04] <no0tic> it seems she doesn't want her name to be logged beside her words
[04:05]  * nickrud is incredibly grateful there are no logs from the 80's
[04:05] <Hobbsee> emma: nor anyone else who may happen to log the channel, then later reproduce it
[04:05] <Hobbsee> (i assume)
[04:05] <emma> no0tic -- I also said that they would have to use my ideas but not my exact wording.
[04:05] <no0tic> ah ok then 
[04:06] <emma> Hobbsee -- Well you know, I'm sure you are reasonable and you can see a reasonable difference between IRSeek with its CEO and Marketing Director and large profile, versus some Old Lady keeping a log on her computer. 
[04:06] <Hobbsee> emma: how do you know that it's only old ladies in that channel?
[04:06] <emma> There is such a thing as 'fair use'. IRSeek is not fair use.
[04:07] <emma> This is becoming a philosophical conversation isn't it? Not that I'm not interested in that kind of thing. I have a degree in philosophy actually.  
[04:07] <emma> Oh by the way is this channel also logged? I don't really like the idea that everyone in the world now knows that I have a degree in philosophy
[04:07] <no0tic> yes it is
[04:07] <Hobbsee> how do you know that no one else is?
[04:07] <emma> Do you see how there is a difference between talking to the people in front of you and talking to people you will never see or know ?
[04:08] <PriceChild> emma, of course you are interested in this kind of thing. Yes the channel is logged.
[04:08] <Hobbsee> emma: sure.  although you shouldn't assume that you will never meet the people online, incidently.
[04:08] <emma> Okay well if this channel is logged by IRSeek I'm going to have to stop talking here also. Goodnight gentleman. 
[04:08] <nickrud> The Lost Battle, web privacy
[04:08] <no0tic> not by irseek
[04:08] <Hobbsee> emma: again, i'm not a gentleman
[04:08] <PriceChild> emma, not by irseek
[04:09] <PriceChild> no0tic must be wondering if there's an echo in here?
[04:09] <Hobbsee> emma: but, i'll ensure that the guidelines have a release in there about the copyrights of what is said in any #*ubuntu* channel - that it's in public domain
[04:09] <Hobbsee> so then there is no confusion
[04:09] <no0tic> PriceChild, en echo that adds words, nice :)
[04:10] <Hobbsee> emma: will that work for you, and others?  obviously, you will choose not to participate, which is valid, but then others will be aware, assuming they read the guidelines, of what their work may be published under.
[04:11] <nickrud> emma: your real complaint is you can't just kick back, have a brew (or whatever) and just chew the fat on ubuntu channels, without being recorded for posterity, right?
[04:12] <emma> I wonder if you would actually put it in the topic or entrymsg that users who write anything in #ubuntu lose all rights to their content and it may be used by third parties for commercial purposes.
[04:12] <Hobbsee> emma: it'll go in the guidelines, whcih is linked from the topic.
[04:12] <Hobbsee> emma: (topics have limited space)
[04:12] <emma> Because that seems to be what you are saying is the reality and what you are endorsing.
[04:13] <emma> I find that really sort of creepy at best and abhorent at worst. To be totally honest.
[04:13] <Hobbsee> emma: that's true - but don't assume that ubuntu development or anyhthing is any different
[04:13] <emma> But you guys seem okay with that and it's your channel (note, it's your channel not a 'public' channel which is why you can do what you want)
[04:14] <emma> Hobbsee put it in the entrymsg 
[04:14] <Hobbsee> emma: again, that has limited space
[04:14] <nickrud> emma: ok with it? no. realize that every single word I put up on the net gets saved somewhere? resigned.
[04:14] <emma> tell people in the entrymsg that they lose all rights to everything they write in Ubuntu and that it may be used by third parties for commercial gain.
[04:14] <Hobbsee> emma: the longer it is, the less people will read it
[04:15] <PriceChild> emma, its not going in the entry message.
[04:15] <emma> "Warning: You lose all rights to all content submited to #ubuntu and it may be used by third parties for commercial gain."
[04:15] <Hobbsee> OTOH, i wonder how one would effectively go licencing under a Creative Commons Attribution 2.5 License
[04:15] <emma> PriceChild,  because you aren't proud enough of it. I dare say. It really doesn't sound so good does it. Even though it's the truth. And what does that say?
[04:16] <Hobbsee> in terms of the capacity to be able to resolve infractions
[04:16] <emma> "Warning: You lose all rights to all content submited to #ubuntu and it may be used by third parties for commercial gain."
[04:16] <PriceChild> emma, careful, I might quote you on that in my book.
[04:16] <emma> Based on everything you all have said the preceding is the truth.
[04:17] <Hobbsee> like any other area of ubuntu development.
[04:17] <emma> And yet you don't dare or are reluctant to tell people.
[04:17] <emma> What does it say when the truth is not something you are comfortable informing people about?
[04:17] <emma> Is it really something you want to be supporting in that case?
[04:17] <Hobbsee> emma: i think you're the first person to actually ask
[04:17] <emma> Well that leaves us with enough to think about. Farewell.
[04:17] <nickrud> emma: if you will stop ranting, you'll see that Hobbsee is trying to find a working solution
[04:18] <Hobbsee> ah well
[04:18] <Hobbsee> so, it's all public domain then.
[04:18] <Pici> Is it worth it for me to read the backlog of this?
[04:18] <Hobbsee> Pici: not really
[04:18] <PriceChild> Hobbsee, i think its best we get council to just confirm that
[04:18] <Hobbsee> PriceChild: elkbuntu LjL nalioth ping.
[04:18] <Hobbsee> PriceChild: there's your council
[04:18]  * nalioth is here
[04:19] <Hobbsee> nalioth: +/- 1 for making any logs of #*ubuntu* public domain?
[04:19] <PriceChild> public domain!!!
[04:19] <PriceChild> and lets hide it away in the guidelines because we're so ashamed of it
[04:19] <nickrud> heh. gpl, and try to track down the licensees ;)
[04:34] <mneptok> i love people that try to use big words to sound intellectual, and then repeatedly misspell them.
[04:34] <PriceChild> crap, i didn't spell my name wrong again did i?
[04:34] <nalioth> mneptok: hay! joo tayk dat bak!
[04:34] <mneptok> nalioth: yu, ser, arr a abomminayshun
[04:35] <mneptok> wait ...
[04:35]  * nickrud adds words to his spell checker regularly
[04:35] <mneptok> emma is concerned about privacy .... from her Mindspring uplink?
[04:35] <mneptok> oh, the irony.
[04:36] <Hobbsee> mneptok: only other companies using it 
[04:36] <nickrud> we could always go back to single line dialup bbs's, then we'd have some privacy
[04:36] <mneptok> it's like all the "as a critical piece of infrastructure, Launchpad should be free software! sincerely, idiot@gmail.com"
[04:36] <Hobbsee> heh
[04:38] <nickrud> heh indeed
[04:39] <tonyyarusso> mneptok: Gmail isn't required to participate in Ubuntu.
[04:40] <mneptok> *blink*
[04:40] <mneptok> huh?
[04:40] <mneptok> i fail to see the reasoning.
[04:40]  * nalioth delinks mneptoks synapses
[04:40] <tonyyarusso> If I want to contribute to Ubuntu, I have to use LP.  That applies to everyone, not just the person who thinks to complain.
[04:40] <mneptok> so?
[04:41] <mneptok> the complaint is that "as a critical piece of web infrastructure," not "i want to participate..."
[04:41] <tonyyarusso> So you're taking people like ompaul, who only use open-source software, and telling them that they can't do that and be part of Ubuntu.
[04:41] <mneptok> ompaul doe snot use only open-source software
[04:41] <mneptok> trust me.
[04:41] <tonyyarusso> Also, Gmail is just an e-mail service.  I might be using Evolution to intereact with it and just using them as storage space.
[04:42] <Hobbsee> there are other reasons not to use LP, apart from it not being open source.
[04:42] <mneptok> tonyyarusso: so storing your critical data in closed systems is cool, but merely interacting with one is not?
[04:42] <tonyyarusso> mneptok: I store my data on my disk.
[04:42] <mneptok> "just use them as storage space" is a bit cofusing then
[04:42] <mneptok> +n
[04:42] <tonyyarusso> it's a mirror
[04:43] <mneptok> tonyyarusso: so storing your critical data in closed systems is cool, but merely interacting with one is not? (x2) :)
[04:43] <tonyyarusso> mneptok: What if I used POP3?
[04:43] <mneptok> go scream at Sourceforge. they've been doing the same thing for a decade longer.
[04:43] <nickrud> mneptok: tonyyarusso has the option of running his own open source email server if he chooses, chooses being the relevant point here 
[04:44] <mneptok> nickrud: and you have the option of running your own project tracker, too. just not Sourceforge or Launchpad.
[04:44] <tonyyarusso> Not if we want the stuff on our project tracker in Ubuntu.
[04:44] <nickrud> true. If I don't want to contribute to ubuntu
[04:44] <mneptok> (and if you think GForge is Sourceforge, you've never adminned GForge) :)
[04:44] <mneptok> tonyyarusso: untrue
[04:44] <tonyyarusso> mneptok: how?
[04:44] <mneptok> tonyyarusso: GNOME does not use Launchpad.
[04:44] <mneptok> GNOME is in Ubuntu.
[04:44] <tonyyarusso> mneptok: that's Gnome.
[04:45] <mneptok> KDE
[04:45] <mneptok> Epiphany.
[04:45] <mneptok> Rhythmbox.
[04:45] <mneptok> etc etc etc etc etc etc.
[04:45] <tonyyarusso> Great, so we can contribute to Gnome, but not Ubuntu.
[04:45] <nickrud> all source, not packaging
[04:46] <mneptok> so, you guys want to hack on LP?
[04:46] <tonyyarusso> Plus, you have Canonical's marketing department spewing out to the world how great open source is, and then not even doing what they themselves espouse.  It's hypocritical if nothing else.
[04:46] <mneptok> uh ...
[04:46] <tonyyarusso> If I had coding knowledge, I would.  Don't (yet) though.
[04:46] <mneptok> that's *really* f-ing insulting
[04:46] <mneptok> i'm going away now.
[04:46] <tonyyarusso> I'm aware of that.
[04:47] <nickrud> tonyyarusso: I know I read somewhere that launchpad will be open, but not yet. So, benefit of doubt on my part. But then, I use flash
[04:47] <tonyyarusso> nickrud: I know - they've been promising that for a _long_ time, but like a number of other things, no follow-through yet.
[04:48] <nickrud> tonyyarusso: a fast moving target, from what I've seen. And ubuntu's track record overall is damned good. So, a lot of credit in my books for 'benefit of the doubt'
[04:49] <tonyyarusso> nickrud: Yeah, there's lot of good stuff, but there's also a number of significant negatives with no excuse, which is troubling.
[04:51] <nickrud> tonyyarusso: I don't know what the internal reasoning (or excuse, if you will) is, but again, I do trust the people doing this, based on what I've seen. If I didn't, I'd go back to debian
[04:51] <tonyyarusso> true
[04:51] <nickrud> At least there the cabal is hidden :)
[04:54] <tonyyarusso> on the other hand, there is still a level of separation between the distro and the primary corporate sponsor.
[05:52] <Myrtti> I wonder how old DrDerek really is
[05:52] <Myrtti> because he seems to act like 13-yo
[05:53] <nickrud> most ron paul supporters are emotionally 13 
[05:53] <Myrtti> I wouldn't know
[05:54] <nickrud> lucky you
[06:26] <mneptok> *sigh*
[06:27] <mneptok> someone /j -offtopic and ask "has anyone ever gotten OpenSolaris to use a ZFS storage pool on a 1976 Casio digital watch?"
[06:27] <mneptok> i just want to see Snuxoll say "i have" again
[06:27] <nickrud> ask him if he got itunes working in wine
[06:35] <Myrtti> the next one he does... 
[06:35] <Myrtti> DAMN
[06:35] <Myrtti> that feller really starts to tick me off
[06:36]  * mneptok fixes Myrtti some tea and fetches a full clip
[07:08] <ubotu> Daisuke_Ido called the ops in #kubuntu ()
[11:30] <ubotu> bazhang called the ops in #ubuntu (momentary)
[13:36] <jpatrick> busy day I see
[13:36] <jussi01> hehe, crazy... :P
[13:38] <jpatrick> why am I always at school when the stuff happens?!
[14:04] <csandoval> easy
[14:04] <csandoval> im here
[14:05] <jussi01> Hi
[14:05] <csandoval> heeeyy!
[14:05] <csandoval> i'm using the first time this chat
[14:05] <jussi01> !guidelines | csandoval 
[14:05] <ubotu> csandoval: The people here are volunteers, your attitude should reflect that. Answers are not always available. See http://wiki.ubuntu.com/IrcGuidelines
[14:05] <csandoval> are some hot chicas here???!!!
[14:06] <jussi01> csandoval: #kubuntu is a support channel, if you just want to chat, please go to #kubuntu-offtopic
[14:06] <jussi01> csandoval: It is also in english only, as you were told
[14:07] <csandoval> ?
[14:07] <csandoval> i'm from switzerland
[14:07] <csandoval> german not english
[14:07] <LjL> the CHANNEL is english
[14:07] <csandoval> aha
[14:08] <csandoval> i'm at work
[14:08] <csandoval> and you?
[14:08] <Myrtti> erm
[14:08] <Pici> csandoval: This isn't a chat channel, you've been redirected to a channel to deal with problem users.
[14:08] <Myrtti> this isn't actually a casual chat channel
[14:08] <LjL> csandoval: you don't seem like you're working
[14:08] <csandoval> :D
[14:08] <csandoval> i know
[14:09] <csandoval> how can i go to swiss chat channels?
[14:10] <LjL> csandoval: #ubuntu-ch, #ubuntu-de
[14:10] <csandoval> thx !!
[14:10] <LjL> csandoval: i don't suggest you ask for hot chicas there.
[14:11] <csandoval> ok
[14:13] <Myrtti> so, can we help you in any other way than telling you where to go for german irc channels?
[14:20] <Pici> So. Whats up with the irc stats.
[14:20] <csandoval> you ask me?
[14:21] <Pici> csandoval: No, I'm asking the other ops.  We've already told you that this isn't a place to just hang out.
[14:21] <csandoval> aha
[14:21] <Pici> !idle 
[14:21] <csandoval> ok
[14:21] <csandoval> then bye
[14:21] <ubotu> Please keep in mind that this channel is for operator/abuse questions only, and we ask you to part when you have no further business here, in order to keep track of users with pending inquiries.
[14:21] <igvozdev> jo man
[14:21] <csandoval> affe
[14:21] <csandoval> sind das alli
[14:21] <csandoval> yeah
[14:21] <csandoval> thats my homie
[14:21] <igvozdev> u are stupid dude
[14:22] <igvozdev> go to ch chat peopole here have problems u know
[14:23] <igvozdev> sry anybody the name of swiss server?
[14:23] <igvozdev> *knows
[14:24] <csandoval> igvozdev: #ubuntu-ch, #ubuntu-de
[14:24] <LjL> Pici: what's up with the irc stats?
[14:26] <Pici> LjL: http://www.ubuntuircstats.org/
[14:26] <LjL> Pici: ah.
[14:26] <LjL> Pici: i guess no donations
[14:27] <csandoval> ok people
[14:27] <csandoval> nice to meet you all
[14:27] <Pici> Oh well.
[14:27] <csandoval> I have to work
[14:27] <csandoval> but no working to hard
[14:27] <LjL> bye
[14:27] <Myrtti> csandoval: byebye
[14:27] <csandoval> Chill, Relax, don't come with the next...
[14:27] <csandoval> bye bye
[14:27] <LjL> jee
[14:27] <Pici> jussi01: You sure can pick them.
[14:28] <LjL> !ircstats
[14:28] <ubotu> Sorry, I don't know anything about ircstats - try searching on http://ubotu.ubuntu-nl.org/factoids.cgi
[14:28] <jussi01> Pici: gah, sorry bout that, had to run in the middle there
[14:28] <Pici> !stats-#ubuntu-offtopic
[14:28] <ubotu> Statistics for this channel can be found at http://www.ubuntuircstats.org/ubuntu-offtopic.html
[14:28] <LjL> !search ircstats
[14:28] <ubotu> Found: logs, chanstats*, picistats*, stats*, ircstatslink*, stats-#ubuntu-offtopic, ircstats*, ircstats-#ubuntu-offtopic*
[14:29] <LjL> Pici: been deleted
[14:29] <Pici> !picistats
[14:29] <ubotu> Sorry, I don't know anything about picistats - try searching on http://ubotu.ubuntu-nl.org/factoids.cgi
[14:29] <jussi01> hmmm, I assume I nshould unforward them from #kubuntu now
[14:30] <Pici> Please ;)
[14:31] <jussi01> done :)
[16:36] <kiru> hello
[16:36] <Pici> kiru: Hello, how can we help you today?
[16:36] <kiru> am I banned in äubuntu?
[16:37] <kiru> #ubuntu
[16:37] <Pici> Let me check, hold on.
[16:40] <Pici> kiru: Yes, yes you are banned.
[16:41] <Pici> Your last visit to the channel you acted quite inappropriately.
[16:44] <ubotu> neverblue called the ops in #ubuntu (daba)
[16:51] <kiru> ok
[16:51] <kiru> bye
[16:52] <Pici> Er.
[17:40] <eddieftw> hey all, im looking for some help in setting up an ssh key so I can add my blog to the planet. is there a link I should be reading, or some other help I can get. thanks
[17:42] <nalioth> eddieftw: Uncle Google didn't help you any?
[17:42]  * nalioth got help from Uncle Google with his SSH key questions
[17:43] <Pici> eddieftw: https://help.launchpad.net/CreatingAnSSHKeyPair perhaps?
[17:43] <eddieftw> uncle google. i see. thanks all.
[17:44] <eddieftw> i already have a gpg key, i wasn't sure if it was the same thing that was being asked. /me heads off to talk to uncle google. thanks all
[17:45] <nalioth> it's not the same thing
[17:45] <Pici> See that link I posted
[17:45] <eddieftw> i see that now. thanks all.
[18:19] <Pici> johnc4510: Good afternoon, how can we help you today?
[18:19] <johnc4510> yep
[18:19] <johnc4510> i have a AZ team member who just made ubuntu member
[18:19] <johnc4510> https://launchpad.net/~tyche
[18:19] <johnc4510> need to get his cloak set please
[18:19] <johnc4510> not sure who does that
[18:20] <jussi01> A recent update broke several KDE language packs, leaving the user unable to login. (#195647) To fix this, remove the updated packages and restart KDE.
[18:20] <jussi01> anyone have issues with me adding that?^^
[18:21] <Pici> johnc4510: The person who has gained member status needs to come in here and request the cloak themselves I beleive.
[18:21] <nalioth> johnc4510: if s/he can visit us here, it'd be better
[18:21]  * johnc4510 ok, np i'll send him right in   ty
[18:22] <johnc4510> :)
[18:23] <no0tic> jussi01, I updated yesterday and I use KDE, no problems here with l10n-it
[18:23] <Pici> Sigh... people keep asking if I'm a bot.
[18:24] <johnc4510> nalioth: here is tyche 
[18:24] <tyche> I'm here
[18:24] <no0tic> Pici, italian users ask it to me too
[18:24] <johnc4510> tyche: you need to request the cloak
[18:24] <tyche> Would it be possible for me to have a cloak
[18:25] <jussi01> no0tic: yes, I beleive its the canadien one, possibly others
[18:25] <nalioth> of course it is possible
[18:25] <johnc4510> lol
[18:25] <johnc4510> :)
[18:25] <johnc4510> nalioth: thx
[18:25] <johnc4510> tyche: see ya later gotta run
[18:26] <tyche> that's what I like.  A person with a sense of humor.  Would you please assign me one?  I would appreciate it.
[18:26] <tyche> johnc4510: kk
[18:26] <johnc4510> :)
[18:26] <tyche> Thank you.  Nicely done.  I'll leave now and quit bothering you.
[18:28] <jussi01> !langpack
[18:28] <ubotu> A recent update broke several KDE language packs, leaving the user unable to login. (#195647) To fix this, remove the updated packages and restart KDE.
[18:29] <jussi01> if anyone has any feedback on that, feel free to let me know/change it :)
[18:30] <jdong> jussi01: "remove the updated packages" doesn't immediately tell me what I should do
[18:31] <jdong> at least list the packages to remove
[18:31] <jussi01> jdong: ok, what would you suggest ? 
[18:31] <jdong> jussi01: either listing the packages that should be removed, or the command to do so
[18:31] <Pici> Or link to a page that explains the workaround.
[18:32] <jussi01> Pici: jdong: ok, Ill get it done
[18:32] <jdong> awesome
[18:35] <jussi01> !langpack
[18:35] <ubotu> A recent update broke some KDE language packs, leaving the user unable to login. (#195647 https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/language-pack-kde-en/+bug/195647) To fix this, remove the updated packages (language-pack-kde-en, language-pack-kde-en-base) and restart KDE.
[18:36] <jussi01> jdong: hows that?
[18:37] <jdong> jussi01: other than don't link to .edge, good
[18:37] <Pici> Use the compressed LP link format: http://launchpad.net/bugs/195647
[18:37] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 195647 in language-pack-kde-en "language-pack-kde-en packages break KDE for canadian english users" [Undecided,Confirmed] 
[18:37] <jussi01> aye
[18:38] <jussi01> !langpack 
[18:38] <ubotu> A recent update broke some KDE language packs, leaving the user unable to login. (#195647 http://launchpad.net/bugs/195647) To fix this, remove the updated packages (language-pack-kde-en, language-pack-kde-en-base) and restart KDE.
[18:38] <jussi01> :)
[18:38] <jussi01> meh, im getting rid of the number, looks stupid
[18:40]  * Pici gives Myrtti some aspirin, takes some himself too
[19:43] <jpatrick> Pici: oh, Arwen is grump master
[19:43] <jpatrick> today I've since him complain in #kubuntu, #k-testers and now #+1
[19:43] <Pici> Sigh...
[19:44] <jpatrick> "I don't want to have anything to do with that crap KDE 4"
[19:44] <Pici> I like the way #ubuntu+1 is during the early alphas.
[19:56] <PriceChild> arwen is anon32 isn't he?
[19:56] <PriceChild> in whichcase grrr
[19:56] <PriceChild> pretty sure he's banned in #ubuntu
[19:56] <PriceChild> i unbanned him in +1 earlier in the year provided he play nice I think.
[19:57] <PriceChild> maybe last year
[19:59] <jpatrick> PriceChild: yep, that's him
[19:59]  * jussi01 gets annoyed by him on a regular basis... sigh
[20:00] <jpatrick> jussi01: sometimes I feel like saying: "Well here the dev books and stuff, stop complaining and try and do better yourself"
[20:01] <jussi01> jpatrick: yep, know what you mean
[20:01] <ompaul> Seveas, pm
[20:01] <mok0_> Hi, there seems to be a ghost process claiming my usual nick mok0. Can you kill it?
[20:01] <ompaul> no
[20:01] <jussi01> !ghost
[20:01] <ubotu> On IRC, if you own a nick that is currently being used, you can make it quit by typing: /msg nickserv GHOST <username> <password>
[20:01] <ompaul> use nickserv
[20:02] <mok0_> It says the nick is in use by someone else
[20:02] <jpatrick> mok0_: type: /msg NickServ ghost mok0 yourpasswords
[20:02] <ompaul> mok0_, as it says there ^^^      /msg nickserv GHOST <username> <password>
[20:02] <jpatrick> mok0_: in the server window is best
[20:02] <mok0_> ompaul: ok thanks will try
[20:04] <jpatrick> !yay > mok0 
[20:04] <ompaul> mok0, is there anything else we can help you with?
[20:04] <mok0> :-) thanks guys
[20:06]  * ompaul awaits the burn of the disk he will use to rescue the box he is using as a server to read this xsession that is from his box where the multi io board is being bad - but X runs - this server being from a live CD and the box below that needing a new kernel / other stuff to help it boot cos it is very broken ;-) 
[20:06] <ompaul> how is that for convoluted
[20:07] <jussi01> bleh
[20:07] <ompaul> jussi01, thanks for your vote of confidence :)
[20:07] <jussi01> hehe
[20:08] <ompaul> faulty kernel on box with cd - pulls xclients and xsession to serve them on this box, from the box that can't do keyboard or mouse via its own io card :)
[20:17] <ompaul> ohh btw I could not find a current CD to boot and repair my local hard drive - so I had to use the box with the bad multi card to burn a CD on ;-)
[20:17]  * ompaul loves X
[20:20]  * jpatrick loves ssh+screen+irssi
[20:22]  * jussi01 cant wait for quassel to be ready properly...
[20:22] <jussi01> oh, sorry, that breaks the trend...
[20:22]  * jussi01 loves Kubuntu :D
[20:23] <no0tic> jpatrick, yesterday you hated your ssh
[20:23] <jpatrick> no0tic: I hate the ssh sevrer, but not ssh
[20:23]  * no0tic loves 
[20:30] <jussi01> jpatrick: I got to run for a min, watch osama and co in #k for me?
[20:30] <jpatrick> jussi01: gotcha
[20:31]  * jpatrick gets /amkr right
[20:31] <jpatrick> ready*
[20:39] <jpatrick> jussi01: we need to use /clones more often: http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/57510/
[20:40] <jpatrick> [!] hr36192 [n=hr36192@196.219.65.229] has quit [Remote closed the connection] - another
[20:40] <no0tic> jpatrick, kr?
[20:40] <jpatrick> no0tic: replace k with b :)
[20:41] <no0tic> :)
[20:54] <jussi01> jpatrick: heh, yeah
[23:17] <credible> By_Turkey just spammed #python and is in #ubuntu
[23:18] <LjL> uh-oh
[23:18] <LjL> and #gentoo etc
[23:18] <PriceChild> watching
[23:20] <LjL> spammed #python
[23:21] <LjL> again, that is
[23:33] <credible> and #ubuntu
[23:33] <nalioth> klined
[23:58] <Amaranth> PriceChild: Disable Lazy positioning in the move plugin in compiz
[23:58] <Amaranth> PriceChild: X11 (No Xv) rendering is simply not possible to do by default
[23:58] <Amaranth> PriceChild: Also, gutsy or hardy?
[23:58] <PriceChild> Amaranth, hehe ok.
[23:58] <PriceChild> gutsy
[23:58] <Amaranth> Fixed in hardy.
[23:58] <PriceChild> woop woop
[23:59] <PriceChild> Amaranth, so what's the disadvantage of what I've done?