/srv/irclogs.ubuntu.com/2008/02/27/#ubuntu-meeting.txt

DPicOkay, who's here?00:00
* johnc4510-laptop +100:01
johnc4510-laptophmmm00:01
DPicWell, we could start talking but maybe it's be best to wait a few minutes..00:02
DPicit'd*00:02
johnc4510-laptopDPic: yes00:03
johnc4510-laptopand tyche is here for meeting too00:03
DPiccool00:04
* johnc4510-laptop anyone else here for a marketing meeting?00:17
maccam94i heard there was one from DPic00:17
johnc4510-laptopah :)00:17
maccam94supposedly starting... 15 minutes ago00:17
johnc4510-laptopyep00:17
johnc4510-laptopnot many have shown up00:18
DPicyeah, disappointing :/ but we can still discuss plans00:18
johnc4510-laptopok, we better start then, i have to leave in 40 mins. now00:19
DPicokay00:19
maccam94so00:20
DPicso, for the hardy release, we want to have a big release campaign00:20
DPicso far we know we want to press release the local teams can adopt and release themselves00:21
DPicany other ideas?00:21
maccam94we need to get fliers in places where people will pick them up00:21
DPicand for that, we need fliers00:21
maccam94indeed00:21
johnc4510-laptopare there premade fliers from earlier releases00:22
johnc4510-laptopor00:22
maccam94so they probably need tweaking00:22
DPicyeah00:22
johnc4510-laptophave we checked the art team for new ones for hardy heron00:22
DPicwe could always start fresh and just use the past fliers for ideas00:22
maccam94the art team doesn't seem.... very "with" it, but i'm sure if we asked them they'd make one00:23
DPicwe haven't, does the art team make fliers and those sorts of materials?00:23
DPicthat would be good. i'll get in contact with them00:23
johnc4510-laptopnot sure, but they could point us to the newest artwork for hardy00:23
maccam94i think it's supposed to be fairly similar to gutsy00:24
DPictrue00:24
maccam94the big redesign got postponed00:24
DPicyeah, that's probably for the best00:24
maccam94:-\00:24
maccam94i would have liked the refresh, considering it's now competing against glossy UI's like OSX's and Vista's00:25
DPici think they need more time to work on it, but just a simple refresh would have been nice00:25
DPicso, for the press release-- how can we make that effective?00:25
johnc4510-laptopwe _can_ use ideas from past fliers for the content00:25
DPic^ yeah, already said that :)00:26
johnc4510-laptopkk00:26
DPicwe really want to start being a communication and resources hub for local marketing00:26
DPicwe need to be able to contact all the LoCo's for whatever out current campaign is00:27
DPicwhich we can do through the loco contacts list00:27
johnc4510-laptopcanonical puts out a press release themselves so we need something we can use to blog and digg etc and to let the loco's use00:27
DPicyeah, out own press release wouldn't be necessary00:27
DPicbut we should focus on attracting more people who wouldn't normally hear about ubuntu00:28
DPici created this page which we should work on a lot https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoActivism00:29
johnc4510-laptoplooking00:29
DPicas well as https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoMediaCoverage00:29
johnc4510-laptopok, as a start, *I* would like to see us getting the loco's involved in distributing fliers about the upcoming release00:31
DPicme too00:31
DPicand CD's too, of course00:31
johnc4510-laptopyou are going to have a hard time with cd's i think00:32
DPicteams can't solely operate online, they have to get out and hit the streets to erach out to more people00:32
somerville32Maybe create a template letter to send to local media agencies?00:32
DPicsomerville32: canonical issues their own press release that can be used00:32
johnc4510-laptopmost of the loco's however would be receptive to distributing fliers00:32
somerville32DPic: Okay. So how about encouraging loco teams to forward that press release to local media agencies?00:33
johnc4510-laptopi think somerville32 is meaning something the loco's could send to their local media00:33
johnc4510-laptopsomerville32: :)00:34
DPicyeah, definitely00:34
somerville32I'm sure that some local agencies would print it if not for lack of something else :P00:34
DPicthe loco media coverage page is a good guide for that00:34
boredandblogginglocos probably want to do some customization to it00:34
DPicwhy will CD's be difficult?00:34
DPicthey might not be immediately available00:34
somerville32Maybe we could have an easy step program? "Want to help promote Ubuntu 8.04? Step 1. Step 3. Step 4."00:34
DPicbut when they are, they should be distributed as widely as possible00:35
desertcspecifically about the next ubuntu release, maybe even covering a release party.00:35
boredandbloggingin reality, LoCos need to make their own CDs00:35
maccam94really?00:35
boredandbloggingapproved LoCos get a couple hundred00:35
johnc4510-laptopDPic: we could have the loco's insert times and dates of loco installfest on the fliers to give access to cd's00:35
maccam94they probably wouldn't come out as nice as official ones tho00:35
boredandbloggingif you aren't approved, you might get 20 or 30 max00:36
boredandbloggingasking all the individual loco members to request CDs might help, but don't depend on shipit00:36
johnc4510-laptopno00:36
DPicwell keep in mind, individuals on launchpad who are active can get ten-- and if each unapproved team has several active people on launchpad, they can get a hundred or so as well00:36
johnc4510-laptopboredandblogging: hey00:36
DPicfliering and postering is something we should add to the loco activism page00:37
DPicand we could link to our resources page when we have uploaded thos kinds of materials00:37
johnc4510-laptopas i said earlier, let the loco's use the release flier to promote installfest or release parties in their area00:38
boredandblogginghave you guys looked at the old spreadbuntu stuff?00:38
DPici have, yeah00:38
johnc4510-laptopboredandblogging: i have not yet00:38
johnc4510-laptop:(00:38
johnc4510-laptopbut there should be good ideas there00:38
DPici put the useful stuff here https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MarketingTeam/Materials00:38
DPicas far as materials go00:39
boredandblogginghttp://doc.ubuntu.com/~marketing/spreadubuntu/00:39
desertcboredandblogging: you mean spreadUbuntu?00:39
boredandbloggingdesertc: hah, yeah00:39
boredandbloggingit can be used for a starting point00:39
boredandbloggingor just for ideas00:39
johnc4510-laptopagreed00:39
desertcspreadbuntu is a windowing theme00:39
johnc4510-laptopDPic: is that a flier or a cd cover?00:40
DPicwhich?00:40
johnc4510-laptoplast link, under flier00:40
desertcboredandblogging: yeah, spent a lot of time looking at DIY marketing, actually00:40
boredandbloggingneed to encourage locos to think big, like get a huge banner and hang it where a lot of people will see it00:40
johnc4510-laptopDPic: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MarketingTeam/Materials00:41
desertcboredandblogging: How many of these assets do you consider ready-to-use ??00:41
DPicjohnc4510-laptop: it's a flier00:41
johnc4510-laptopkk00:41
johnc4510-laptopand post the fliers anyplace that will let them00:41
johnc4510-laptopand they should be asking to post it anyplace the visit during the day00:42
johnc4510-laptopfliers are cheap and something anyone in a loco can do00:42
desertcyou need a double sided print for those fliers, right?00:43
desertcflyers (silly spell check)  ;)00:43
DPicdesertc: yeah00:43
DPicis there anything else that people can do for the hardy release?00:44
desertcthat increases the cost of production by quite a bit, just fyi00:44
DPicwell, we'll have more soon00:45
DPicthat one is just from the spreadUbuntu thing00:45
DPiccontacting computer retailers might be good to request ubuntu and shot it off. but that's something that doesn't have to just be for the hardy release00:45
DPicshow it off*00:45
boredandbloggingneed to get the locos excited about hardy00:45
maccam94computer retailers generally depend on windows for business00:45
johnc4510-laptopwe should keep the flyers to _one_ sided productions i think00:46
maccam94there isn't an incentive to push an alternative00:46
DPicjohnc4510-laptop: that wouldn't be hard to do. i don't think having double-sided options would be a bad thing though00:46
desertcboredandblogging: could canonical get the locos an advanced press release on the features of hardy?  else, is there a definitive list of new features that we can start passing around to locos?00:46
maccam94it's at feature freeze00:47
DPicMaybe what we should do, is write up press releases not for the media, but for loco teams to read what we have going and what we want them to do00:47
maccam94so yeah there should be a list up00:47
maccam94i can check00:47
boredandbloggingyeah, features are set00:47
johnc4510-laptopnot a bad thing, but it's not needed i don't think  we want to make this as easy on the loco's as possible, and the most cost efficient00:47
boredandbloggingas for the canonical press release, I wouldn't really depend on them00:47
desertcboredandblogging: right - I understand what you're saying00:48
boredandbloggingthink if we can come up with something general, and let the locos customize it, it would be good enough00:48
desertcso it sounds like we need to put together a short press release based on the hardy features - something in layman's term.  one page should be ample.00:49
johnc4510-laptopboredandblogging: nice00:49
DPicwe don't want to just have one thing. we'll craete a bunch of things that loco's can either use directly or customize for themselves00:49
maccam94um00:49
maccam94one thing00:49
desertcwell - one thing would be the start of many things  ;)00:49
maccam94we should list ALL the features of ubuntu00:49
maccam94GENERAL things00:49
maccam94because these fliers aren't for people UPGRADING ubuntu00:49
desertcthat's a good point00:50
maccam94they're for people who *don't use it yet*00:50
johnc4510-laptopshould point out the advantages of ubuntu and open source00:50
desertcor - at least include the new features AND the existing features00:50
desertchowever, the newsworthy part is the new release, of course00:50
DPici remember seeing an article on digg about what was wrong with the ubuntu press release for feisty and how it should have been different00:50
DPiclet me try and find it00:50
maccam94yeah me too00:51
boredandbloggingno version numbers00:51
johnc4510-laptopshould have links to ubuntu, forums and how the community supports with help00:51
boredandblogginglike gnome 2.x.y00:51
johnc4510-laptopagreed00:51
boredandblogging                                                 00:52
boredandblogging                                                 00:52
johnc4510-laptoplol00:52
boredandblogginghttp://blog.gobanquet.com/index.php/why-ubuntu-804-needs-better-marketing/00:52
boredandbloggingno clue what happened there00:52
johnc4510-laptophee hee00:52
desertcone challenge will be getting someone in the locos talking to the media.  most likely they have no contacts.  there might need to be some coaching for doing it00:53
DPicthanks for finding that, i couldn't find it for some reason00:53
maccam94me neither00:53
tycheYes, please.  Coaching is definitely needed.00:53
maccam94lol00:53
DPicdesertc: yeah, and any people who are experienced with the media should contribute to the loco media coverage page00:53
boredandbloggingencourage locos to create some kind of kit, with documentation and CD and send it to some local media00:53
desertcwe shouldn't assume that if we make a press release on a wiki that the locos will make the effort to get it in papers.00:54
johnc4510-laptopdesertc: we need to get the team leads to handle that i think00:54
johnc4510-laptopin fact as we get further along we should start cultivating the team leads to get them on board with this00:54
DPicthere is the loco contacts list00:55
desertcmy expectation is that even getting a few locos to get this in action will be challenging, so we should start with just a few - maybe provide coaching for the approved locos and see what happens.  It's going to be a learning experience for everyone00:55
johnc4510-laptopDPic: yes00:55
johnc4510-laptopit can be reached from the usteams page i think00:56
* johnc4510-laptop sorry i've got to run :(00:56
johnc4510-laptopi'll catch up from my logs00:56
DPicalright thanks for showing up00:56
DPicwell we definitely have a good amount to work with now00:57
DPicshould we move onto talking about a meeting schedule?00:57
somerville32:)00:58
boredandbloggingsure00:58
DPicokay, so how often should we meet, and what should we do about timing (since we're a global team)?00:59
desertcmost of us are from the us time zones01:00
DPicokay so then around this time shouldn't be a problem01:00
desertcI know I was thinking about the us-locos in this discussion01:00
DPicshould we meet once a month, or twice a month?01:00
boredandbloggingwhy not do another one in 2 weeks01:01
desertcfor me, feel free to ping me whenever - if I'm online, then I'm available to help01:01
boredandbloggingif no one shows up01:01
DPicboredandblogging: in 2 weeks if no one shows up?01:02
desertcI will work on writing up some notes for a press release - need to work on writing a linux speech anyway this week ;)01:02
somerville32If someone would fix the Fridge's calendar... I wouldn't miss any of the meetings because google would page my blackberry01:02
DPicwhat's wrong with the fridge's calendar?01:02
somerville32Won't work with google calendar01:03
DPicah01:03
somerville32Some drupal module bug or something that is apparently fixed upstream01:03
DPici see01:03
DPicso we all agree, every 2 weeks, at 00:00 UTC?01:04
tyche+101:04
somerville32+101:04
boredandbloggingmight also want stop by the -locoteams channel01:04
boredandbloggingand see if anyone there has any ideas01:04
DPicand always on wednesday?01:04
boredandbloggingor what they are planning to do01:04
DPicboredandblogging: good idea01:04
DPicdoes this day of the week always work for everyone?01:05
boredandbloggingsure01:05
maccam94sure01:05
DPicgreat01:06
tychefine01:06
DPicanything else to talk about?01:06
DPici'll get working on the notes for this meeting, and drawing up a plan for us01:07
DPicmeeting adjourned?01:09
boredandbloggingsure01:09
DPicokay thanks everyone01:10
desertc!seen01:13
ubotuThe seen function has not been operational for a long time.  Use /msg seenserv seen nickname instead.01:13
=== ember_ is now known as ember
michaelramm_macdid i miss the marketing mtg?04:07
michalskino, starts in 2 hours04:14
michalskioh wait marketing,yes04:14
michaelramm_macd'oh. darn UTC time!!!04:15
michaelramm_macthanks04:15
=== _czessi is now known as Czessi
=== ubotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Platform Team Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 27 Feb 12:00 UTC: Education Team | 27 Feb 21:00 UTC: Server Team | 28 Feb 14:00 UTC: Desktop Team | 29 Feb 12:00 UTC: MOTU | 05 Mar 07:00 UTC: Platform Team
evandgood evening06:51
Mithrandirgood early morning06:52
bryceheya06:52
* ogra tries to get his eyes open ...06:52
evandheh06:52
* Hobbsee throws some sand at ogra06:54
ograHobbsee, that only helps if to match a moment where i actuallly have them open :P06:54
ogra(and am not yawning)06:54
* Mithrandir tickles Hobbsee06:54
* Hobbsee tickles Mithrandir back, and stomps on his feet, before he levitates06:55
calchi06:56
* cjwatson blinks a few times06:57
dokogood morning06:57
* ArneGoetje waves06:58
TheMusoHey folks.06:58
cjwatsonasac,slangasek: ping06:58
* TheMuso looks out the window and hopes the storm doesn't come this way...06:59
slangasekcjwatson: hi06:59
Hobbseeevening, cjwatson.  here's your coffee07:00
cjwatsonheh07:00
Hobbseejust don't fall asleep in it :P07:01
ograif its hot enough that will wake him up :)07:01
TheMusoaww! And I thought everybody on the team was a morning person. :)07:01
cjwatsonok, just missing asac - let's start anyway and hope he shows up07:01
* ogra slowly feels the healing power of caffeine in the morning07:01
cjwatsonfirst off, activity reports: I have four out of nine this week07:02
ogramine just hit the list ...07:02
cjwatsonplease send these *before* the meeting07:02
ogra(sorry)07:02
cjwatsonnext the real agenda07:03
slangasekwould you prefer if I started sending mine end of day Monday?07:03
cjwatson * Actions from last week07:03
cjwatson  * Result of multi-monitor discussion with desktop team? (Bryce)07:03
cjwatsonbryce: how did this go?07:03
* asac hides07:03
cjwatsonslangasek: no, yours was fine, I get up a little early before the meeting so I can catch up on them07:03
slangasekok07:03
brycecjwatson, it's come along fairly well07:04
brycecjwatson: I have debs and screenshots up at:  http://people.ubuntu.com/~bryce/Testing/XrandrGui/07:04
bryceright now I'm mostly waiting on seb128 to review/upload things07:04
bryceI was hoping to get some feedback from him on the integration, but I gather he's been busy with the new gnome stuff07:05
brycethe gui installs and runs, and it seems to work (but I found a bug when using it on a KVM)07:06
brycemost of the work has been packaging - a lot of autoconf/automake hackery07:06
cjwatsonaside from the text about F9 :-), that looks pretty good; no facility for choosing a different driver?07:06
bryceright, this only uses xrandr interfaces07:07
brycescreenshot 1 and 2 are before / after07:07
cjwatsonI just want to make sure that if we drop displayconfig-gtk we're not reliant on anything it does07:07
brycescreenshot 2 corresponds to what's in the debs07:07
cjwatsonah07:08
brycewell, displayconfig-gtk is essentially a fancy xorg.conf editor07:08
brycethis new tool does everything through run-time interfaces, so anything that requires xorg.conf modification is going to be out of scope for it07:09
cjwatsonperhaps we should prepare some release notes text about how to do anything that's dropped07:09
bryceok07:09
cjwatsonok, thanks07:10
cjwatson * 5-a-day07:10
cjwatsonJono has asked that I remind everyone of the existence of 5-a-day (https://wiki.ubuntu.com/5-A-Day) and encourage all of you to take part07:11
cjwatsonerr, where relevant anyway07:11
cjwatsoneven if you're already doing equivalent bug work (which most of you should be, at a minimum), please also help to spread the message07:12
evandwill do07:12
cjwatsonthe wiki page has pointers to some tools to help with this07:13
calcok07:14
doko_hmm, so I should just call 5-a-day before a package upload?07:14
cjwatsonthat's one reasonable approach, yes07:14
cjwatsonif you're feeling particularly enthusiastic you could hook it into dupload ;-)07:14
doko_ok, will do.07:15
cjwatsonbut the important bit is publicising to the community that this is something that the Ubuntu community does as a matter of course07:16
TheMusoI've certainly been thinking that it *could* be a way to encourage people testing a11y to file bugs, as they just about always post to mailing lists...07:16
TheMusoBut other than that, I'll likely jump in and participate as well.07:17
cjwatsonhmm, I think filing bugs is just about the only bug activity that's not part of 5-a-day07:17
cjwatsonthe point is to get the bug count down :-)07:17
TheMusoright07:18
calcfile more bugs so you can turn around and close them? ;-)07:19
cjwatsonI think that's enough on that topic :-)07:19
cjwatson * Final call on dmraid (Luke)07:19
TheMusoRight.07:19
TheMusoIf people haven't been following my reports and other IRC activity, let me bring everybody up to speed.07:19
TheMusoFor several years, many consumer, and some low-end server boards have been shipping with what is known as fake raid.07:20
TheMusoBasically, the BIOS of the disk controller writes special metadata to a pair or so of disks, to make them a fake software raid, be it raid 0, 1, or 5.07:21
TheMusoWindows drivers for these controllers know what to look for, and transparently read/write this metadata as necessary, with the user not even knowing most of the time that windows is sitting on top of a RAID setup.07:21
TheMusoDmraid is such an interface to this metadata for Linux.07:21
TheMusoHowever, so far from my testing, it doesn't come close to either what the BIOSs can do, or what Windows drivers do in terms of keeping the array consistant.,07:22
TheMusoSo, with dmraid still not being able to reliably provide event monitoring for failed/degraded arrays, and not being able to rebuild arrays, as well as at least one BIOS on a controller I have always finding array inconsistancies when Linux has touched the array, we need to really consider whether dmraid is something we want for hardy.07:23
TheMusoFrom my point of view, it comes down to whether I keep actively working on it, dispite these issues, or whether I move onto other things, and keep an eye on it for hardy+1.07:23
calcperhaps whitelist it on a known working chip/bios-rev basis?07:24
TheMusoI have also discovered that kernel patching is required to allow for the use of RAID 5 via dmraid.07:24
TheMusocalc: Since it uses metadata on the hard disk, this could be possible, but the fact is, that at least one BIOS I have complains of array inconsistancies after I even do an install onto a dmraid array.07:24
slangasekwhat's the alternative to having dmraid enabled - having no support for the controller, or having support for it as a plain IDE/SCSI controller?07:24
TheMusoAnother controller I have did not appear to be as strict, but only complained when I degraded the array.07:25
TheMusoslangasek: Only supporting it as a standard IDE/SCSI controller.07:25
TheMuso /SATA even07:25
* slangasek nods07:25
TheMusoslangasek: Which means that users who have windows on such an array could very easily destroy it.07:25
slangasekoh... :)07:26
slangasekbut, you're saying that the current code isn't guaranteed to do much better for them?07:26
TheMusoslangasek: No it is not.07:26
ArneGoetjeTheMuso: can we detect this situation and display a warning to the user?07:26
TheMusoEspecially if the BIOS is as strict as my hpt37x controller supporting fakeraid.07:26
calcis the code not working for any of the many different brands, or just not good on certain ones?07:26
cjwatsonit looks to me that the dmraid program isn't really hooked into device-mapper change events, and that it only erases the metadata if you explicitly tell it to07:27
TheMusocalc: I don't know, as I only have 2. The code works, but its a matter of makings ure the array is consistant once Linux shuts down.07:27
calcgrr hpt is crap, i had trouble with one of those writing into cylinder 0 even when raid wasn't enabled :-\07:27
calcoverwriting grub bootloader in the process07:27
calcTheMuso: ok07:28
slangasekhmm, hpt is the one that's now courting Linux07:28
TheMusocjwatson: As I said in my report, there is work going on to get some stuff into the kernel to support dmraid better. There is also more userspace work going on for event monitoring.07:28
calcdoes intel's matrix raid stuff use dmraid?07:28
cjwatsonTheMuso: was your testing just with the installer, or did you also try editing partitions in a regular system?07:28
calcgetting intel's fake raid to work (if possible) would probably be a good thing07:28
cjwatsonTheMuso: the reason I ask is that I notice that the installer integration does not do the same stuff that /etc/init.d/dmraid does on shutdown07:28
TheMusocjwatson: I tried the following: 1) install windows, then Linux. 2) Install Windows, edit partitions, reboot. 3) install Linux only.07:29
TheMusoAll were caught by the BIOS as possible inconsistancies on the array.07:29
TheMusocjwatson: Well, I even tried hand-deactivating the arrays before rebooting.07:29
cjwatsonthough, I have to say I'm slightly surprised that the partition table is ATARAID metadata as such07:29
cjwatsonI would have thought that dmraid should present a device to Linux on which parted blindly edits the sectors corresponding to the partition table, which then translate into writes to both disks07:30
TheMusocjwatson: The partition table is totally separate to the metadata.07:30
TheMusoThe metadata is at the end of the disks. The partition table is where you would normally find it.07:30
cjwatsonright, so what's the metadata that needs to be updated? would that not normally only be if you added or removed disks, or if disks failed?07:31
cjwatsonI'm trying to figure out why partitioning changes it07:31
TheMusocjwatson: I don't know without digging into code. My guess something to do with state is stored in metadata, but I think this varies from controller to controller.07:31
TheMusoWell as referred to by calc, it could also be a flaky BIOS. There is no newer revisions for the board however.07:32
TheMusoAnd, running WIndows/DOS and doing all manner of parttion edits etc does not seem to bother the BIOS.07:32
cjwatsondmraid seems to have explicit BIOS-specific metadata handlers07:33
TheMusoYes it does.07:33
TheMusoAs all metadata is different from controller to controller.07:34
calcbug 8978 refers to the issue i had with hpt controllers doing stupid things07:34
ubotuLaunchpad bug 8978 in grub "Grub - Error 21 returned" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/897807:34
TheMusoNow. I will be getting a new system in the coming weeks, that will have 2 different dmraid compatible controllers on it. I'll be interested to see how well they are handled. One will be intel, and one will be Gigabyte.07:35
ograi have some edubuntu users using hpt07:35
asachmm, are there actually any bugs filed about these inconsistencies after shutdown?07:35
* asac looking at dmraid lp bugs page07:36
TheMusoHowever my silicon image controller was not even bothered when Linux was installed. Never tried Windows+linux, as I wanted to move the dmraid testing to another box.07:36
TheMusoasac: No, as it is only with cone controller that I get the behavior.07:36
TheMusoone07:36
evandTheMuso: I have two dmraid systems that were sent to me and can help, as I've also been tasked with similar goals.07:36
cjwatson... so at least one controller *does* work?07:37
TheMusoevand: Right, if I were to give you some quick isntructions as to build a modified alternate disk, wuould you mind having a look?07:37
TheMusocjwatson: Yes, for a linux only install.07:37
TheMusoI can certainly try it again, if required. Need to card swap, but thats no big deal.07:37
evandTheMuso: not at all, I'll make it a top priority.07:37
cjwatsonthat's a little more promising07:37
TheMusocjwatson: However, there is still the issue of not being able to rebuild the array from Linux.07:38
cjwatsonbasically, I'm just aware that this is an increasing target and if we don't get something in I suspect it's going to come up in point releases as a hardware support target anyway07:38
TheMusoSo at this point, we could certainly blacklist the hpt37xx controller I have.07:38
TheMusocjwatson: Right.07:38
cjwatsonif it were totally non-functional, I'd agree it doesn't make sense07:38
cjwatsonbut it sounds to me that we have some specific bugs on which we need help from upstream07:39
TheMusocjwatson: I do need to do a dual boot windows test with that silicon controller however to be sure.07:39
TheMusoThe upstream mailing list is rather quiet. The person at Red Hat who maintains this certainly is working on it, but I think he is also involved with other things.07:40
TheMusoI'm downloading fedora 8 as we speak to see if that yields any different results.07:40
TheMusoAs they've had dmraid in fedora for a few releases now.07:40
calcTheMuso: blacklisting probably should be based per bios revision, but that might get complicated07:40
cjwatsonI think a fairly sane approach would be to move it to main for wider testing for now (since we need it in main in order to have it in the installer), but put a prominent note in the release notes for alpha 6 and beta that we will rip it back out again if test results are unfavourable07:41
TheMusocalc: Yeah I'd say it would, but as I said, there is no newer revision for this board, and I can't download an older one to try.07:41
calcmaybe best to upgrade chipset to most recent bios (where possible) if it doesn't work blacklist the whole chipset for the time being07:41
cjwatsonhow does that sound?07:41
slangaseksounds agreeable to me07:41
ograpretty dangerous07:41
evandheh07:41
TheMusoNote if any testing is to be done, it should be on a clean system so that data loss is no issue.07:41
cjwatsonogra: elaborate?07:41
ograsince its probably the base of your install people really need to be aware they need to reinstall if it fails07:42
ograi mean07:42
ograits your filesystem07:42
slangasekTheMuso: I look forward to your recommended release notes entry ;-)07:42
cjwatsonwe could include a warning in partman-dmraid that this is explicitly experimental and you MUST have backups07:42
ograthat needs a very wordy warning07:42
TheMusocjwatson: partman-dmraid already has a warning.07:42
cjwatson"NO, REALLY"07:42
evand"Type 'Yes, do as I say' to continue" :)07:43
ograi mean, i'm getting mails atm if ltsp is already final for hardy ... from people wanting to use it in production next week (if i dont shout)07:43
cjwatson The support for SATA RAID disks (using dmraid) in the installer is07:43
cjwatson experimental. You should make sure that you have a backup of any07:43
cjwatson data on your system that you do not want to lose!07:43
cjwatson[and more]07:43
TheMusoWell there is a question that gets asked by partman-dmraid.07:43
ograsince "its only about a month")07:43
TheMusocjwatson: As for raid 5 support, I could easily see how well that patch could be adapted for lum perhaps?07:44
cjwatsonogra: this is balanced against the fact that you can try to install Ubuntu right now on these systems and it's *guaranteed* to do bad things to your array07:44
ograright07:44
cjwatsonTheMuso: it came up a little while ago, and I didn't think it was all that important?07:44
cjwatsonTheMuso: do people need RAID 5 support?07:45
TheMusocjwatson: I don't think that was dmraid related...07:45
cjwatsonit was some module that had 'dmraid' in its name07:45
TheMusocjwatson: I certainly know intel controllers support it, and some others do.07:45
cjwatsondmraid56 IIRC?07:45
TheMusocjwatson: I didn't dig, but I'll ahve a look. It could be the one.07:45
cjwatsonif it's needed, then I apologise for saying it wasn't - #ubuntu-kernel should be able to help07:46
TheMusoYes there was a post to the kernel list about it, but I  don't think its been acted upon.07:46
=== arualavi_ is now known as arualavi
cjwatsonany other questions? I agree that this is an uncomfortable situation07:47
TheMusoIf you have dmraid compatible controllers that you could spare, testing would be very welcome.07:48
TheMusospare as in, use that machine for testing, with data backed up to a safe place.07:48
ograTheMuso, i'll send a call to the edubuntu list ... o know many of my users have such HW in their ltsp boxes, but dont know if they have spare stuff for testting07:48
ogras/o know/i know/07:49
TheMusoogra: I think its safer if the machine is non-critical at this point. Thanks though./07:49
ograyeah, i'll ask if someone has a spare one to test on07:49
cjwatsonI'm happy to help review a release notes entry07:49
cjwatsonok, one more item from activity reports07:50
cjwatson * need folks with European keyboards to test if dead-keys work when07:50
cjwatsonusing scim-bridge with scim and feedback to me. If this works, we can07:50
cjwatsonuse scim-bridge as default module for scim, as it seems to solve all the07:50
cjwatsonproblems we currently have with scim.07:50
cjwatson(arne)07:50
TheMusoHow complex is os-prober? I'll see if I can also get windows to be detected on a dmraid array.07:50
cjwatsonos-prober is not too bad; I wrote chunks of it so I can help you with it07:50
TheMusoOk thanks. Ok we can move on now I have my answer. :p07:50
cjwatsonvolunteers for keyboard testing?07:51
cjwatsonthis looks like a five-minute test for a few different people07:51
* ogra raises hand ....07:51
TheMusoIf I knew a European keyboard layout, I'd be happy to help. :)07:51
cjwatsonI don't think us/gb really count07:51
asaci have a dead-keys keyboard and could test07:51
TheMusoThats why I said, if I knew a layout.07:52
ArneGoetjeonly those with dead-keys on their hardware keyboard07:52
ogramy prob is that all my keyboards are attached to thin clients and the classmate doesnt have a european one ... but i'll arrange something07:52
cjwatsonArneGoetje: dead keys are typically implemented in X ...07:52
cjwatsonnot in hardware07:52
slangasekArneGoetje: how does one test the scim-bridge part of this?07:52
ArneGoetjewell, I mean using a keyboard layout with dead-keys enabled by default07:52
cjwatsonright07:52
ArneGoetjeplease see my activity report for testing steps07:53
slangasekif I toggle input method to SCIM, compose still works better than the GTK default IM, so I'm happy07:53
cjwatsonArneGoetje: (perhaps repost that one to ubuntu-devel)07:53
ograall germans who dont use dvorak likely use "de nodeadkeys"07:53
ArneGoetjeslangasek: you use en_US I suppose?07:53
ArneGoetjecjwatson: will do.07:53
slangasekArneGoetje: en_US, with plenty of use of compose; no deadkeys07:54
ArneGoetjeslangasek: does that one work well when scim is enabled?07:54
slangasekit appears to - but I don't have scim-bridge installed yet07:54
cjwatsondoes scim implement the dead-key composition itself, or just pass keycodes through to X?07:55
ArneGoetjecjwatson: it should pass it through X when in English mode.07:55
cjwatsoni.e. is there a possibility that it works for some combinations of dead keys and ordinary keys but not for others?07:55
cjwatsonok07:55
cjwatson(English => "not CJK", IIRC :-) )07:55
cjwatsonso in that case a couple of tests ought to be sufficient07:56
cjwatson(asac and ogra)07:56
ArneGoetjeI know it works when scim is set to scim-immodule... but need to test with scim-bridge too07:56
cjwatsonall right - any other business?07:56
slangasekreminder that this Thursday is the UI Freeze07:57
cjwatsonbryce: that particularly applies to this xrandr gui work07:57
TheMusoOuch.07:57
TheMusore dmraid. :p07:57
brycehrm07:57
asacArneGoetje: ill test right after the meeting and let you know.07:57
ArneGoetjeasac: thanks.07:58
brycecjwatson: could you prompt the desktop folks to review/upload my patches?  I could really use their help to meet that cutoff07:58
cjwatsonpeople will start taking screenshots for documentation, books, etc. at UI freeze and will need to be warned explicitly of changes07:58
slangasekI'll send out a more thorough reminder to u-d-a; in the meantime just bear in mind that any changes to UIs (artwork, text strings, etc.) after Thursday need to be coordinated07:58
ArneGoetjewhat is affected by the UI freeze?07:58
slangasekArneGoetje: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UserInterfaceFreeze07:58
cjwatsonArneGoetje: everything that documenters, translators, et al might need to know about if it changes afterwards07:58
cjwatson(to a crude first approximation)07:59
ArneGoetjeI'm still reshuffeling some font settings and default font packages to be on the first install...07:59
cjwatsonbryce: ok, noted07:59
cjwatson*extra* fonts aren't much of a problem, as nobody's going to take a screenshot of broken stuff for documentation07:59
ArneGoetjeI mean default fonts08:00
cjwatsonI mean extra default fonts over what we have now :-)08:00
ArneGoetjewhich fonts are chosen to render a particular script, etc.08:00
ArneGoetjecjwatson: ok.08:00
evandso then this doesn't cover color changes?  I'm still trying to work out grabbing the right ones from gtk for two different custom widgets.08:01
cjwatsonArneGoetje: but if it produces radical changes, please coordinate with the release team08:01
slangasekevand: if it's a change that could affect the accuracy of screenshots, it should be communicated08:01
ArneGoetjehowever, for CJK the default font should be changed08:01
evandslangasek: noted08:01
cjwatsonthere is a bug about the look-and-feel of the new ubiquity timezone widget08:02
cjwatsonwould be worth seeing what can be done about that before Thu08:02
evandindeed, I did catch that one08:03
evandI'm tempted to zoom in even further08:03
evandso there's more spacing08:03
cjwatsonI have noticed that it's quite difficult to land on a particular point08:03
cjwatsonparticularly given that the map moves as you move the mouse pointer over it, so it effectively ends up moving at twice the speed you expect08:03
cjwatsonbut that might be tolerable with more space to work with08:04
evandif it's still noticable I'll work on smoothing it out and slowing it down.08:04
cjwatsonok, we're over time and should probably take this to other channels08:04
cjwatsonthanks, everyone08:04
asacthanks08:04
cjwatsonI think I'm going to go and have a nap :)08:05
ArneGoetjethanks08:05
slangasekthanks08:05
TheMusoThanks, will get minutes done tomorrow my time.08:05
cjwatsonTheMuso: cheers08:05
calcgoodnight :)08:05
cjwatsonlate reminder, please look at http://people.ubuntu.com/~dholbach/sponsoring08:06
* asac looking08:06
cjwatsonif you have anything with your name against it, particularly if it's old, please do something about it; we need to be responsive to people submitting patches08:06
brycecya08:07
evandgoodnight, good morning, and good afternoon, where applicable.08:12
TheMusocalc: Oh yes, Intel's matrix raid or whatever it is is dmraid so far as I know.08:12
=== doko_ is now known as doko
=== ubotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 27 Feb 12:00 UTC: Education Team | 27 Feb 21:00 UTC: Server Team | 28 Feb 14:00 UTC: Desktop Team | 29 Feb 12:00 UTC: MOTU | 05 Mar 07:00 UTC: Platform Team | 08 Mar 11:00 UTC: Kubuntu Developers
=== ubotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Education Team Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 27 Feb 21:00 UTC: Server Team | 28 Feb 14:00 UTC: Desktop Team | 29 Feb 12:00 UTC: MOTU | 05 Mar 07:00 UTC: Platform Team | 08 Mar 11:00 UTC: Kubuntu Developers
* ogra wanves11:57
* stgraber waves11:57
ogra*waves even11:57
ograanyone else here ?11:58
ograRichEd has an immovable appointment, so he migh not come11:58
stgraberright, I have invited xivulon for Edubuntu+Wubi11:58
stgraberdon't know if he's around at the moment (not sure of his timezone)11:59
ograwhat would you do wth wubi in edubuntu ?11:59
ogra*with11:59
ograwe dont have any installable media atm11:59
ograand we're unlikely to have ...12:00
stgraberright, so I'll probably ask him to just drop edubuntu support from wubi12:00
ograi doubt i can make any edubuntu apps fit on the liveCD with the dep on ubuntu-desktop we have now12:00
stgraberwell, it's not a problem with wubi12:00
ograthat will take up all space12:00
stgraberit runs from an ISO file, so size doesn't matter12:01
ograif wubi has a networked install mode that would be an option12:01
stgraberbut that would require an extra iso just for wubi which is unlikely to happen12:01
ogralike pulling everything from the archive12:01
stgraberhmm, I don't know if wubi has some kind of netinstall support12:02
ograthen you could just install edubuntu-desktop12:02
stgraberyes, well something he could also do is that when you select Edubuntu, it installs Ubuntu and then install edubuntu-desktop12:02
stgraber(don't know if it's something he can do though)12:02
ograright, but that requires net access as well12:02
ograor multi iso support in wubi12:03
stgraberright12:03
ograwell, anyway ... short Cd status report ...12:03
ograthe edubuntu-desktop package is now in g-a-i (still needs some description text)12:04
ograso if you pop in the Cd you can just mark it for install in g-a-i and it will turn your desktop into edubuntu12:04
stgraberI tried it with alpha-5 and it worked perfectly12:04
ograedubuntu-artwork got a notification to please reboot or at least relogin for the changes to take effect12:05
ograsince wallpaper etc wont change immediately ... gdm theme needs a gdm restart etc12:05
* Hobbsee waves12:05
ograthere are some dependency probs i'm currently attacking12:05
ograits currently not possible to install without network from that CD because its missing a lor of kde libs12:06
ograi'm currently sorting that out and hope to have it fixed for tomorrows build12:06
ograthe prob here was that -alternate wasnt installable for some days due to new kernel builds12:07
ograso i didnt have a plain fresh install to test on ...12:07
ogravbox install of todays image is running in the background :)12:07
ogrameh12:07
ograand just failed12:08
stgraberargh :(12:08
ograwell, anyway thats the current status12:08
ograi'm waiting for some artwork but since rich usually does the communication here i'll do that off meeting12:09
ograobverall the new CD design proves to be good ... we currently eat up only 430M ...12:10
ograand still have WINFOSS on it12:10
ograi suspect the deps i have to add will eat about another 50M or so though12:10
ograso any questions ?12:10
ograoh, and lasers freeze exception for squeak was approved ... we'll get a new working squeak for hardy :)12:11
ograhmm, seems no questions so far ...12:12
xivulonogra what will happen to the ISO?12:12
ograxivulon, which one ?12:12
ograthe addon ? it will stay as is12:13
xivulonwill we have a big ISO with desktop + edubuntu all in one?12:13
ograthe livecd is likely to go away as we wont have space for any edu apps12:13
ograand there was no final decision about the dvd yet12:13
xivulonI am asking that in the context of wubi12:13
ograbut i'm not eager to maintain it12:13
ograwe had that in the beginning :)12:14
xivulonSize is not a big issue on my side12:14
ograwe dont have any installable media anymore in edubuntu12:14
ograor will not have12:14
ograedubuntu turned into a plain addon12:14
stgraberxivulon: http://paste.ubuntu.com/5042/12:14
xivulonstgraber: thx12:15
ograxivulon, multi iso support would work ... or netinstall12:15
stgraberxivulon: is there a way you could chain both CDs or install edubuntu-desktop once the Ubuntu Desktop is installed ?12:15
ograif wubi offers either that would eb for edubuntu12:15
ograno need to chain them12:16
ograjust apt-cdrom add both12:16
ograand then install edubuntu-desktop12:16
ograthe combo of both isos should have all you need12:16
xivulonogra will need to investigate that, might be possible but no promises12:17
ogradoesnt sound overly complicated :)12:17
ograbut surely some code to write, so probably not for hardy12:17
xivulonyeah not sure if that would be a violoation of feature freeze12:18
ograi wont cry if yu drop it for hardy and we re-add it in a proper (instead of quick) way in intrepid12:19
ogranot sure how much its used12:19
ogradid you have any complaints yet from hardy testers ?12:20
xivulonI'd guess it would be mostly for evaluation purposes12:20
ograyeah12:21
stgraberhaving a way to work with add-on CDs in wubi would be interesting as some other derivatives may want to go that way in the future12:21
ograhum12:22
ograi just looked at the livecd12:22
ograits remarkably small12:22
stgraberogra: Have you had some time to write the MIR for italc ?12:25
ograugh, thanks for reminding, will do so today12:25
xivulonstgraber: yes I agree, does apt-cdrom work with an ISO?12:26
stgraberxivulon: not sure, but you could just loop mount it and then use it no ?12:27
xivulonyes12:27
stgrabersorry, I got to go back to my edubuntu deployement. Thanks for the meeting and see you later12:28
ograyeah12:28
ograi think we can adjourn now12:28
xivulonI'll keep edubuntu for the time being and see if I can add extra-isos with minimal changes12:29
xivulonif that's ok12:29
ograseems theer is nothing pressing anymore we cant as well discuss in #edubuntu12:29
stgraberas we don't have Riched around for the community part I indeed think we can :)12:29
ograyeah12:29
ograxivulon, sure12:29
ograxivulon, you can also keep it and show a note that the user needs network and install edubuntu-desktop from the archive12:30
xivulonthat would be plan B I guess12:30
ograright12:31
ograok, are we ready so far ?12:31
ogragoing once ...12:31
ogragoing twice ...12:31
ogra.12:31
ogra.12:31
ogra.12:31
ograadjourned ...12:32
ograthanks all12:32
ograstgraber, good luck with your deployment12:32
michalskimeeting starts in 10 minutes right?12:49
Riddellmichalski: looks like the edu meeting has happened13:02
michalskihappend? like has past?13:02
michalskiimpossible, my computer was on all night for the platform meeting, and i turned it off only between 7-30:8:30, so its impossible that i missed it13:03
mjg59michalski: It started an hour ago13:05
mjg59And finished half an hour ago13:05
michalski.....awwww :(13:05
michalskiand next meeting at 5pm (AST), cya13:06
mruiz@schedule santiago13:17
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=== ubotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 27 Feb 21:00 UTC: Server Team | 28 Feb 14:00 UTC: Desktop Team | 29 Feb 12:00 UTC: MOTU | 05 Mar 07:00 UTC: Platform Team | 08 Mar 11:00 UTC: Kubuntu Developers
=== dholbach_ is now known as dholbach
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pedro_hello!15:58
* Iulian waves15:59
henohey all!15:59
nandhey!16:00
liwhi16:00
* nand is at work...16:00
henobdmurray, ogasawara?16:00
ogasawara_I'm here16:00
bdmurraymetoo16:01
henook, then we can start!16:01
heno#startmeeting16:01
MootBotMeeting started at 16:01. The chair is heno.16:01
MootBotCommands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]16:01
henoagena at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/Meetings16:01
heno[TOPIC] Evaluation of the current bug day arrangement.16:02
MootBotNew Topic:  Evaluation of the current bug day arrangement.16:02
stgraberhello16:02
heno... It seems to be going extremely well, with solid community participation and good impact on the numbers. In London we decided to run two bug days each week for a month or two approaching release. Should we make this a permanent arrangement? -- heno16:02
bdmurrayI personally find it hard to participate in both of them16:02
ogasawara_same here16:02
henoyeah, I can understand that16:03
pedro_yes me too, it's hard for me to participate on the Tuesday ones (lot of emails to read basically)16:03
IulianWell, here is going well, every morning I have some classes (school) but after that I'm free to give a hand.16:04
IulianBut I think that's up to you guys.16:04
henopedro_: would you be comfortable running the desktop days with just the (growing) community?16:05
pedro_I'd like to celebrate both bug days, it seems that there's a lot of participation the Thursdays at the desktop hug days16:05
pedro_heno: of course!16:05
pedro_the bugsquad is doing an excellent job there16:05
henowe could look at the QA schedule and select point in the cycle where it makes sense to have two16:05
henopedro_: indeed16:05
henothe time around UDS seems difficult16:07
henoor any meeting where we all have to attend16:07
henobut otherwise, are there any bad dates for bug days?16:08
=== leonel_ is now known as leonel
pedro_i don't think so, just between meetings they are difficult to do16:09
bdmurrayWe didn't have one right after FF because people were so busy16:09
henoright, just leading up to release might also be busy16:10
bdmurrayright with more testing16:10
henobut generally, i think we can continue as we are and see what capacity we have16:10
pedro_agreed with that16:11
henowith more people joining the bus factor drops also16:11
bdmurrayI think it will be helpful if we can keep the momentum until UDS as we'll need help watching for SRU bugs for Hardy16:11
heno(ie. we can run them even if a specific person isn't available)16:11
henobdmurray: esp as this is an LTS where we will expect to ship updates16:12
henoin the form of point releases16:12
henoOk so we are all agreed the bug days are really rocking these days and not to change them ATM16:13
heno!16:13
stgrabermoving room, will be back in ~5min16:13
heno[TOPIC] Kernel bug migration - are we blocked on bug 193853?16:13
MootBotNew Topic:  Kernel bug migration - are we blocked on bug 193853?16:13
ubotuLaunchpad bug 193853 in python-launchpad-bugs "add functionality for adding new tasks to bug report" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/19385316:13
ogasawara_it really just depends on how we're wanting to handle the migration16:14
ogasawara_if we just want to mark the linux-source-2.6.22 tasks to Incomplete and ask to test with the Hardy kernel, then we're ok16:15
ogasawara_it's just an issue if we want to take the extra step of opening the 'linux' task at the same time16:15
henothey the user has to set the 'linux' task16:15
ogasawara_right16:15
ogasawara_or we have to set it16:15
henoit's fairly easy to do16:16
henocompared with finding the right pkg in the first place16:16
henoit will only take 1-2 lines to explain16:16
* ogasawara_ nods16:17
ogasawara_but we'll want to make sure they understand that if they don't add the 'linux' task themselves it may get overlooked16:17
henoogasawara, can the setting to incomplete and adding comment then be fully automated?16:17
ogasawara_heno: yes16:18
heno(once the high and critical bugs are taken care of)16:18
henoi'm happy with that16:18
henorather than waiting for a p-lp-bugs feature16:18
ogasawara_yup, and I've been trying to take a look at the high and critical ones16:19
henoexcellent16:19
ogasawara_also the Fix Committed ones are simple to close out16:19
henoanyone opposed to that approach16:19
henoare they all in reality fix Released?16:20
ogasawara_heno: not all, but a majority are16:20
henook, let's go with that then!16:21
henowhat about time lines?16:21
henowhen shall we do this?16:21
ogasawara_heno:  I'll immediately start taking a closer look at the High and Critical ones16:21
ogasawara_heno:  I don't have an exact count of how many there are, but I imagine I can tackle a good chunck of them by next week16:22
henoogasawara_, thanks. Let us know how you get on16:22
heno[TOPIC] QA-poll pre-launch coordination16:22
stgraberre16:22
stgraberoh, just in time :)16:22
henostgraber: did you want to ask for testing?16:23
henoor shall we do that in a different forum?16:23
stgraberwell, it's late for testing, but I would like everyone of you to think about two ideas to add right after we release it16:23
MootBotNew Topic:  QA-poll pre-launch coordination16:23
henoSo these are ideas for improving Ubuntu16:24
henobasically feature requests16:24
stgraberyep, possibly linked to a spec, bug or forum thread (ideal would be the three of them)16:24
heno'Video enabled skype should just work'16:24
heno'better support for Wacom tablets', etc.16:25
stgraber'Easy partition management'16:25
stgraber'Graphic backup tool'16:25
henostgraber: ok, thanks. we can look at the announcement texts later in #u-testing16:26
henoliw: did you want to talk about testing packages, or not yet?16:26
stgraberyes, I'll blog about it16:26
stgraberheno: can you post on ubuntuforum ?16:27
liwheno, they're not yet ready for public use, so not yet, but next week16:27
stgraberI would suggest that we start spreading the announcement tomorrow from 13:00 UTC16:27
henostgraber: yes, I'll contact the forum and fridge people to get it posted centrally16:27
henostgraber: sounds good16:27
nandre16:28
henoliw: ok, please email the QA list16:28
* heno waves to nand16:28
henoany other topics?16:28
nandheno: I saw you mentionned bugvote.qa.ubuntu.com on your announcment sheet. But it is not ready16:29
henonand: ah, ok. good catch, thanks16:29
henoI'll take that out16:29
nandok16:29
bdmurrayI recently was reminded about 'apt-cache policy <PKGNAME>' and that seems a bit better than 'dpkg -l ...'.  Thoughts?16:29
bdmurrayFor the guided bug filing. ;)16:31
pedro_bdmurray:  totally better than dpkg -l16:31
bdmurrayI like how it shows the repo they are using too16:31
pedro_sometimes with dpkg -l the version number get corrupted16:31
pedro_yes yes16:31
henoI just looked -- if you guys say so :)16:32
Iulianapt-cache policy won't give you the description of the package but I think it is not so useful16:33
henoshould not be needed by the package maintainer who fixes the bug in the end ;)16:33
IulianIndeed16:34
henobdmurray: right, so let's use that16:34
henohas anyone noticed any impact of the bug filing instructions on new bugs16:34
heno?16:35
henodifficult to measure of course16:35
bdmurrayI think my initial sample is a little off16:35
bdmurraybut I wrote up some notes somewhere16:35
bdmurrayhttps://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/BugSampling16:35
henoexcellent, I'd like to read those16:35
henothx16:36
bdmurrayI want to redo to it with a better initial sample and also look at the change 'apt-cache policy' has16:37
henoIt would be interesting to see a time spread of the '700 with the header "sourcepackage=None"'16:37
henoof course older bugs will have moved out of new so a naive analysis will be way off16:37
bdmurrayI started off with bugs with "NEW" in the subject so those are the 1st e-mails.  Somebody would have to be very quick to get it moved to a package16:38
henoah, the data is 'old' also, excellent16:39
bdmurrayAdditionally, we implemented the guided instructions on the 24th of January so this is after they were in effect16:39
henoso a time spread of no-pkg/total would be very useful16:39
henojust plotting those in daily or weekly bins16:40
henoif there is nothing else, let's wrap up16:42
heno- ? -16:42
heno316:42
bdmurrayregarding malone bugs tagged ubuntu-qa16:42
liwI'm fine16:42
henoah :)16:43
bdmurraympt is / was under the impression that they are bugs that are blocking our work - are we in agreement about that?16:43
henoI've notified bjorn about them16:43
bdmurrayI just wanted clarification as to when we should use the tag16:44
bdmurrayor consensus16:44
henoblocking us from doing it as efficiently as we could otherwise16:44
henooh, i see16:44
henoperhaps better keep pet annoyances off the list16:44
bdmurrayI might tagged some I just wanted to watch and share with the team16:45
henobut include things you feel slow you down16:45
bdmurrayOkay, would e-mailing the QA list about "interesting" ones be best?16:45
henobdmurray: to get others to weigh in on whether it should be tagged?16:46
henowhen in doubt that sounds good16:46
henoie. when it's not obvious16:47
bdmurrayas an example is bug 165283 blocking our work - stgraber?16:47
ubotuLaunchpad bug 165283 in malone "The +txt listing for a bug is missing mentoring information" [Wishlist,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/16528316:47
henoshould we review this list within the QA team regularly as well?16:47
bdmurrayMaybe do an initial review via e-mail, only brining up contentious ones, and then talk about new ones in the meeting?16:49
bdmurraycontentious or interesting16:49
henothere are 28 ATM16:50
heno7 have no priority16:51
bdmurraythat's their responsibility though right?16:51
henowhich could mean they are not very serious, or that the LP team is not taking them seriously enough16:51
henobut if those are really blocking us we should lobby to have them raise the priority16:52
bdmurraywell one of them was just submitted yesterday16:52
heno"nomination listings on a bug page are odd" likely isn't a blocker16:53
bdmurrayyeah, I was just looking at that and will remove it16:53
henook, so let's do a review on the qa list first16:53
henobdmurray: do you want to post a strawman list?16:54
liw(time's running out)16:54
bdmurrayheno: sure16:54
=== _czessi is now known as Czessi
henobdmurray: these are clear; these are less clear16:54
henobdmurray: thanks!16:55
henook we are agreed16:55
henoand done16:55
heno#endmeeting16:55
MootBotMeeting finished at 16:55.16:55
henothanks everyone!16:55
* heno will be AFK for a while16:56
=== vorian_ is now known as vorian
=== Pricey is now known as PriceChild
janquark@now19:39
ubotuCurrent time in Etc/UTC: February 27 2008, 19:39:19 - Next meeting: Server Team in 1 hour 20 minutes19:39
andrea-bs@schedule europe/rome19:54
ubotuSchedule for Europe/Rome: 27 Feb 22:00: Server Team | 28 Feb 15:00: Desktop Team | 29 Feb 13:00: MOTU | 05 Mar 08:00: Platform Team | 08 Mar 12:00: Kubuntu Developers19:54
keescooksecurity team meeting isn't listed, but is starting in 5 min19:55
andrea-bsthanks keescook19:55
keescooknp, sorry for the confusion19:55
joejaxxhi19:55
joejaxx:)19:55
andrea-bsheya joejaxx19:55
keescookheya19:55
astharot60secs!19:59
andrea-bs@now19:59
ubotuCurrent time in Etc/UTC: February 27 2008, 20:00:02 - Next meeting: Server Team in 59 minutes19:59
keescook#startmeeting20:00
MootBotMeeting started at 20:00. The chair is keescook.20:00
MootBotCommands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]20:00
keescookhello!20:00
keescook[topic] agenda review20:00
MootBotNew Topic:  agenda review20:00
keescookheya folks :)20:00
* jdstrand waves20:00
keescookanyone new here that wants to introduce themselves?20:00
popeyo/20:01
popeyHello - popey - just a bloke interested in security20:01
keescook:)  it's a big topic area, anything in particular?20:01
popeykeeping systems up to date20:02
keescookcool.20:02
keescookwelcome :)20:02
popeywe do hosting for LUGs, so I'm interested in best practice for making sure we don't get hacked basically :)20:02
keescooksounds good -- have you been using gutsy for those hosts?20:02
=== astharot is now known as gerardo
popeythey're mostly debian20:02
keescookI'm curious if anyone has played much with doing apache isolation with apparmor in gutsy.  ah, heh.20:03
=== gerardo is now known as astharot
astharotkeescook: cool20:03
astharotwill try20:03
keescookokay, if there are any new agenda items, please add them to the wiki agenda page:20:03
keescook[link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/Meeting20:03
MootBotLINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityTeam/Meeting20:03
=== nijaba__ is now known as nijaba
keescookas usual, we've got an hour before the server team meeting uses this room20:04
\shstarts now?20:04
keescookso, continuing into what I think will be a quick topic...20:04
keescook\sh: yeah, started20:04
jdstrandkeescook: I thought about it20:04
jdstrandre apache/apparmor20:04
keescookhehe, me too!  :)20:04
keescook[topic] cve review20:04
MootBotNew Topic:  cve review20:04
keescookanyone have any open CVE concerns?  I've got nothing myself, but I like having this place holder just in case.20:05
\shkeescook: how do we going for sec fixes for issues which don't have a CVE filed20:05
\sh?20:05
jdstrand\sh: we track these by CVE typically-- do you have a particular thing in mind?20:06
keescook\sh: we can follow the same processes, but generally, we should request CVE for issues that need them20:06
keescook[link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityUpdateProcedures20:07
MootBotLINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SecurityUpdateProcedures20:07
keescookthere is a small section on requesting a CVE20:07
keescookerr... there was.20:07
joejaxxlol20:07
\shjdstrand: lighttpd20:08
keescook[action] keescook to (re?)add CVE request procedure to SUP wiki page20:09
MootBotACTION received:  keescook to (re?)add CVE request procedure to SUP wiki page20:09
keescook\sh: I opted to let lighttpd publish without the CVE (since it was ready to publish)20:09
keescookbasically, we contact mitre and vendor-sec and ask for one.20:09
keescookokay, moving on...20:10
jdstrand\sh: does this have an LP bug?20:10
\shjdstrand: jepp...sec20:10
keescook[topic] selinux progress20:10
MootBotNew Topic:  selinux progress20:10
\shjdstrand: bug #19538020:10
ubotuLaunchpad bug 195380 in lighttpd "lighttpd crashes in some cases and giving a remote DoS possibility" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/19538020:10
propagandist:o) Most packages have made it into upstream.20:10
keescookpropagandist, jason_tang: things seems pretty cool20:10
jason_tangspiffy20:11
joejaxx:)20:11
keescookI installed a selinux vm.  I have no idea what I'm doing in it, but "sestatus -v" seems happy ;)20:11
propagandisthorray ;o}20:11
joejaxxkeescook: lol :D20:11
propagandistSETools 3.3.3 was released and is in the PPA now. I'll be posting it to revu this week.20:11
jdstrand\sh: thanks20:11
keescookpropagandist: okay, cool20:11
jason_tangextra spiffy20:11
propagandistSome packages (refpolicy, selinux, and selinux-basics) need to be deleted from the PPA so that their version can be sync'd with upstream. If there aren't any objections I'll do that after the meeting today.20:11
keescookpropagandist: did you catch the issues with libselinux and libsepol that got uncovered over the weekend?20:11
propagandistwith pkg-config?20:12
keescookyeah20:12
propagandistyes, i've pulled those into bzr and posted to the ppa today20:12
propagandistthey'll get pushed to revu as well20:12
keescookokay, excellent.  is there hope that those changes will get into upstream?20:12
keescookfor note, I've already uploaded the fixed packages to the archive20:13
propagandistI would think so :o)20:13
keescookpropagandist: cool.  is that something you can drive?  I'm not sure where to send the patches20:13
propagandistI made some adjustments to the .pc changes though that I think will be easier to upstream (I removed the DESTDIR changes)20:13
propagandistkeescook: yup i can submit them for us20:13
propagandistkeescook: Any update on ubuntu-standard apparmor-utils=>security-utils?20:14
keescookpropagandist: okay, cool -- I did think it was a bit funny-looking that way.  what was your solution for handling "prefix" in the .pc file?20:14
keescookpropagandist: now that I've got my selinux vm, I can more easily see/test the virtual package need there.20:15
keescookI will get that into the archive this week -- it should be a very simple fix -- I just wanted to let the new packages settle for a bit20:15
keescookpropagandist: is it intentional to have the X login be unconfined?20:16
propagandistkeescook: i left it as the combined DESTDIR+prefix... thats not really optimal, but removing destdir will require a bit more work due to the way its being used currently20:16
propagandistkeescook: kk20:17
propagandistkeescook: um... no20:17
keescookpropagandist: well, the requirement is that the .pc file reports the correct thing.  :)  how that happens doesn't matter.  ;)20:17
propagandistkeescook: ;o} sounds like a bug to me20:17
propagandistI'm going to keep a closer eye on the lp bugs if you want to put it there20:17
keescookpropagandist: okay, I did an alpha5 install, then dist-upgrade, apt-get purge apparmor, apt-get install selinux, reboot, reboot, login, sestatus => "unconfied"20:18
keescookpropagandist: okay, I'll file the bug20:19
propagandistkeescook: :o}20:19
keescook[action] keescook to file "unconfined" selinux bug20:19
MootBotACTION received:  keescook to file "unconfined" selinux bug20:19
keescookpropagandist: beyond setools and the virtual package, is there any outstanding in your view?20:19
propagandistkeescook: nope, everything looks like its coming together nicely20:20
* propagandist is excited to hear about the gui tools ;o}20:21
keescookexcellent!  :)20:21
keescook[topic] selinux gui utils20:21
MootBotNew Topic:  selinux gui utils20:21
joejaxxhi20:21
joejaxx:)20:21
keescook:)20:21
joejaxxsetroubleshoot is almost done packaging wise i just need to fix something to be in compliance with ubuntu policy20:21
joejaxxthere are still some redhat/fedora specific things i need to investigate20:21
keescookjoejaxx: is there any beta in REVU or something to poke at early?20:22
joejaxxi should have the other gui tools done soon as well (system-config-selinux and the policycoreutils-gui)20:22
joejaxxkeescook: nope not yet i should upload to ppa ( or revu since that sounds better)20:22
jdstrandjoejaxx: is the system-config-selinux standalone, or does it need other redhat stuff (IIRC it is python and other libs)20:23
jdstrand?20:23
joejaxxthe later is actually a patch on policycoreutils so i am wondering how i should go about that20:23
keescookjoejaxx: is it a bolt on? or does it need a patch to make the -gui work?20:24
jdstrandby 'it' I mean 'system-config-*' tools20:24
jdstrandin general20:24
joejaxxjdstrand: standalone i believe, we already have system-config-printer20:24
joejaxxkeescook: the patch is the gui code20:24
joejaxxgrr i wish i would have posted it somewhere http accessible so i could show you all20:25
=== neversfelde_ is now known as neversfelde
keescookjoejaxx: hm... is there some way to keep it external?  the feature freeze makes it hard to add a feature to a package, but easy to upload a NEW package.  :)20:25
joejaxxkeescook: yeah, i will have to look further into it20:26
joejaxx:)20:26
joejaxxi will do that before the end of this business week20:26
keescookjoejaxx: cool, that sounds good.20:26
joejaxx:)20:26
keescookdo we need to have auditd running when using any of these things?20:27
joejaxxfor setroubleshoot yes20:27
joejaxxbut you can have it review log files as well20:27
keescookokay.  I think mathiaz is actually intending to get it into main for intrepid20:27
joejaxxok great20:28
keescookanything we can help with for the gui bits?20:28
joejaxxkeescook: yes if you are knowledgeable with the python policy it would help :D20:29
joejaxxi will upload it to revu later20:29
keescookoops.  I'm a newb there.  ;)  we can find someone :)20:29
joejaxx;)20:30
keescookokay, so, once on REVU, we can poke at it.  :)20:30
jdstrandthere is a good link-- getting it...20:30
andrea-bsjoejaxx: I know python a bit well20:30
keescookeek, meeting half-over....20:30
jdstrandhttp://wiki.debian.org/DebianPython/NewPolicy20:30
MootBotLINK received:  http://wiki.debian.org/DebianPython/NewPolicy20:30
jdstrandjoejaxx: ^^20:30
joejaxxjdstrand: ok thanks20:30
joejaxxkeescook: perhaps we should move on to the next topic for time sake?20:30
keescook[topic] hardening wrapper testing20:30
MootBotNew Topic:  hardening wrapper testing20:30
keescookso, I starting trying to do some benchmarks for fun and discovered that mplayer doesn't compile with PIE20:31
keescookPIE will fail for applications with raw assembly...20:31
keescooksince those are, by definition, not relocatable in most cases.  :(20:31
NthDegreePIE seems to have issues with apps that want PIC too20:31
crimsun_what portion of main does that affect?20:32
keescookNthDegree: afaict, an executable can link with either PIC or PIE objects20:32
keescook(PIE is just a "lesser" PIC)20:32
NthDegreei've had a few errors where it's asked to recompile with -fPIC20:32
jdstrandkeescook: when is it ok to issue FTBFS bugs against the packages, when intrepid opens?20:33
keescookNthDegree: right, those are .o's that are neither -fPIC nor -fPIE, from what I've been able to tell (i.e. they are not relocatable at all)20:34
NthDegreeah20:34
keescookand the things that I've found that don't get -fPIC/-fPIE during a compile (with the wrappers) are .S files20:35
keescook(things going though "as")20:35
keescookthose .o files are not relocatable... and some may not be able to be defined that way... it kind of depends.20:36
keescook[agreed] we need to take a closer look at things like mplayer20:36
MootBotAGREED received:  we need to take a closer look at things like mplayer20:36
keescookNthDegree: what were you compiling that failed?  (and did compiling with DEB_BUILD_HARDENING_PIE=0 help?)20:36
NthDegreekeescook: err large'ish things... KDE was one of my attempts20:37
keescookjdstrand: we should open them now, actually, but note them with the tags from the wiki page:20:38
keescookhttps://wiki.ubuntu.com/Security/HardeningWrapper20:38
keescook"hardening-ftbfs"20:38
jdstrandcool20:38
keescookcrimsun_: it's unclear...20:39
keescookbut probably everything with asm in it20:39
keescookwhich is, ironically, the things I'd want to protect most with PIE.  ;)20:39
* jdstrand just had a thought that we could compile select packages with hardening wrapper for hardy-- and release with it (eg tasksel server packages might be a start)20:39
jdstrandbut I realize this is probably too late because of FF20:40
keescookah, as a ppa, perhaps?20:40
jdstrandI was thinking for release, ideally20:40
jdstrandwe Build-Depends on it20:40
keescookyeah... makes me nervous to do it this late... but perhaps should be considered more carefully20:40
keescook(before ruling it out)20:41
keescookwhat would people nominate for this?20:41
jdstrandmaybe this is an #ubuntu-server topic too20:41
keescooki.e. what packages?20:41
crimsun_daemons listening on non-localhost?20:41
keescookopenssh, while not compiled with some of the other things, is compiled with PIE.20:42
jdstrandmy thoughts were things in main that ship on the server cd that open a port20:42
jdstrandcups might be another candidate20:42
jdstranddhcpd20:42
jdstranddhcp3-client (or whatever its called)20:42
keescookjdstrand: would you make a list of candidates and put them in the wiki under the roadmap?20:42
jdstrandkeescook: I can do that20:43
keescook[action] jdstrand to make a list of possible candidates for early hardening in hardy20:43
MootBotACTION received:  jdstrand to make a list of possible candidates for early hardening in hardy20:43
keescookokay, moving on...20:43
keescook[topic] pentest team organization20:43
MootBotNew Topic:  pentest team organization20:43
astharothello20:43
joejaxxhi20:43
astharotI'll talk about this instead of emgent :)20:44
keescookhttps://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuPentest#head-9a8d1f8d2cdf1209688c579b0b9dea561001539120:44
astharoti'll be quick, 15 minutes left20:44
keescook[link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuPentest#head-9a8d1f8d2cdf1209688c579b0b9dea561001539120:44
MootBotLINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuPentest#head-9a8d1f8d2cdf1209688c579b0b9dea561001539120:44
astharotall the people involved into the team are pleased to subscribe to the ML20:44
astharothttp://lists.launchpad.net/ubuntu-pentest/20:44
MootBotLINK received:  http://lists.launchpad.net/ubuntu-pentest/20:44
keescook[action] pentesters subscribe to private pentest list20:45
MootBotACTION received:  pentesters subscribe to private pentest list20:45
astharotyep20:45
astharotthen20:45
astharotkeescook: emgent told me that you should know something about platforms census20:45
keescookI don't yet have an infrastructure machine list, IS would like to know what the plans for them are first.  :)20:45
astharotand that you have to discuss with him via mail20:45
astharotuhm I think that by knowning the "volume" of the platforms, the criticism and everything related about the productivity we could start thinking a plan20:46
astharototherwise, how to plan if we don't know what to do?20:47
joejaxxwe should probably draft up policies first20:47
astharotyep, CoC is the next point :)20:47
keescookI'd like to at least have an outline.  e.g.   1) check for XSS in webservices a, b, c.   2) check for ... etc20:47
joejaxxon how to go about things :)20:47
joejaxxkeescook: same here20:48
astharotok so we should first define the tasks that people will perform on platforms20:48
keescookright, CoC will get written before the week is up.  jdstrand and I are face-to-face this week (server team meeting)20:48
=== arualavi is now known as dead_arualaviglg
astharotperfect20:48
astharotthen20:48
keescookastharot: that's my thinking.  I'm going to have a hard time convincing IS to help until they're comfortable with what's going to happen.  :)20:48
=== dead_arualaviglg is now known as arualavi
astharotok so, task definition in todo list20:49
astharotplease add it, dunno how to do it :P20:49
keescook[action] pentest team to define tasks for TODO list20:49
MootBotACTION received:  pentest team to define tasks for TODO list20:49
=== ubotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Server Team Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 28 Feb 14:00 UTC: Desktop Team | 29 Feb 12:00 UTC: MOTU | 05 Mar 07:00 UTC: Platform Team | 08 Mar 11:00 UTC: Kubuntu Developers
keescookdoes that capture the task description correctly?20:50
astharotyep20:50
keescookthe template looks good20:50
astharotthen, I prepared a draft of the pentest report20:50
astharothttps://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuPentest/ptreport/template20:50
keescookhttps://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuPentest/ptreport/template20:50
keescookheh20:50
astharotyes20:50
astharotso, approvation?20:50
keescook(why do some links need [link]?)20:50
keescook[link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuPentest/ptreport/template20:51
MootBotLINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuPentest/ptreport/template20:51
keescooksure, looks good.20:51
joejaxxkeescook: maybe it does not like https20:51
joejaxx:P20:51
keescookah20:51
astharotthe, emgent is working on "anteater" that should be something automatic to send directly the report to launchpad as bug20:51
astharothttps://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuPentest/ptreport20:51
keescook[link] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuPentest/ptreport20:52
MootBotLINK received:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuPentest/ptreport20:52
astharothe has to finish it then he will make a package and will update it on bazaar or ppa20:52
keescookokay, sounds good20:52
keescookare there new pentest members to approve?20:53
astharotlast point20:53
astharoteverything related to ubuntu-pentes should be discussed and approved by every member of the team20:53
astharotI don't think there will be new people involved, AFAIK20:53
keescookastharot: unanimous approvals may be tricky20:54
astharotat least, atm20:54
jdstrandastharot: I am assuming that the bug will be marked private as well as security?20:54
astharotwhy tricky?20:54
astharotjdstrand: yes that's the plan20:54
keescookastharot: it can just be hard to reach 100% agreement some times.20:54
joejaxx /win 11620:55
keescookI think simple majority should work in most cases.20:55
joejaxxbah20:55
astharotye sure, I think that he wanted to say that every member should vote, not only older or "admins"20:55
keescook[agreed] joejaxx has too many windows20:55
MootBotAGREED received:  joejaxx has too many windows20:55
keescookastharot: ah! okay, then I agree there.20:55
keescookrunning out of time again....20:55
astharotperfect20:55
astharotI've done :)20:55
jdstrandhaha20:55
astharothands up \o/20:56
joejaxxhahaha20:56
jdstrandre joejaxx' windows20:56
keescookso, should we start this meeting an hour earlier in two weeks?  we see to always run out before discussing cve-ubuntu-tracker20:56
keescookand the todo lists, etc20:56
joejaxxthat sounds good20:56
keescook[topic] scheduling20:56
MootBotNew Topic:  scheduling20:56
keescookanyone else have issues with it?20:57
jdstrandfine by me20:57
propagandistsounds good to me20:57
keescookjoejaxx: sorry to defer the topics again.  :(20:57
andrea-bsthat's better for me20:57
keescookjoejaxx: anything you can quickly cover about todo list ideas?20:57
keescook[topic] todo list20:57
MootBotNew Topic:  todo list20:57
joejaxxsame20:57
joejaxxkeescook: it is quite alright20:57
joejaxxkeescook: we can leave that for next time :)20:57
keescookokay, well, I'd like to shake out the Roadmap to really outline all the kick-ass work we're doing20:58
joejaxxyeap20:58
keescookokay, next meeting: Mar 12, 1900UTC20:58
joejaxxthanks everyone! :)20:59
keescookthanks everyone for coming!  we'll cover more next time around.  :)20:59
astharotgood20:59
jdstrandthanks keescook! :)20:59
keescook#endmeeting20:59
MootBotMeeting finished at 20:59.20:59
astharotthank you20:59
andrea-bsthanks everyone20:59
michalskidid i miss the meeting?20:59
astharotmichalski: if you are talking about security-meeting, yes :P21:00
michalski...the server team21:00
faulkes-ubuntu-server meeting will be starting shortly21:00
astharotserver team is gonna start, i think21:00
michalskifew haha had me worried21:00
astharotlol21:00
andrea-bs@schedule21:00
astharotdinner is waiting for me, cya around ;)21:00
michalskicya21:00
mathiazhi all !21:00
andrea-bssee u21:00
faulkes-heya mathiaz21:00
soreno/21:01
zulhello21:01
* nijaba waves21:01
mruizhi mathiaz21:01
sommeryo21:01
kirkland\n21:01
keescook\m/21:01
owh.21:01
michalskihi21:01
mathiaz#startmeeting21:02
MootBotMeeting started at 21:02. The chair is mathiaz.21:02
MootBotCommands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]21:02
dendrobateso/21:02
jdstrand\o21:02
mathiazso - let's get started21:02
mathiazcurrent agenda for today: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Meeting21:02
jdstrand\/o21:02
michalskinot alot on the agenda21:03
nijaba>o21:03
mathiaz[TOPIC] Review ACTION points from previous meeting.21:03
MootBotNew Topic:  Review ACTION points from previous meeting.21:03
soren21:03
mathiazhttps://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/Server/2008022021:03
mathiazAs you may have noticed, I've sent a link to the new reporting page21:04
soren21:04
* faulkes- did21:04
mathiazSo I'd like to remind everyone to update the ReportingPage21:04
* nijaba hides21:05
michalskiwhats nijiba's email? I want to join his beta test21:05
keescookmathiaz: so, e.g. for my bits, should I just keep this up to date week-to-week?21:05
keescook(i.e. delete an old entry?)21:05
mathiazkeescook: yes21:05
* michalski grabs nijaba and hauls him out of his hiding spot21:05
mathiazI'm still wondering if we should have a weekly page21:05
mathiazor if the monthly page is enough21:05
=== \sh is now known as \sh_away
nijabamichalski: just msg'd it to you21:06
michalskido we have enough for a weekly?21:06
mathiazfor now - just update the ReportingPage with a status report from last week21:06
michalskik thanks21:06
keescookmathiaz: and if a section of the roadmap is finished, remove myself from the ReportingPage ?21:06
mathiazkeescook: nope - ReportingPage is to know what we did21:06
mathiazkeescook: it will be removed once the MonthlyReport is done.21:07
mathiazThat's a difference between the ReportingPage and the Roadmap21:07
michalskisupper, back in 20, sorry mathiaz21:07
* nealmcb returns to eir computer21:07
mathiazthe Roadmap is about the future and ReportingPage is about the past21:07
mathiaz[TOPIC] mentoring program name21:08
MootBotNew Topic:  mentoring program name21:08
mathiazdendrobates suggested the use sheperd21:09
mathiaza shepherd21:09
mathiazusing mentor reminds of the MOTU mentoring program21:09
faulkes-pathfinder ?21:09
* mruiz agrees21:09
faulkes-although shepherd is fine with me as well21:10
mathiazand we're not trying to compete with the MOTU mentoring program21:10
* faulkes- nods21:10
Jeeves_pathfinder reminds me of a car21:10
ScottKI think mentor is fine.  Debian uses it too.  It's sufficiently generic.21:11
owhWould it be a good idea to ask the people who will be mentored?21:12
mathiazowh: who will be ? or who would be a mentor ?21:12
owhI mean, the customer, the person that will receive the mentoring.21:13
mathiazfor now, I'll be the contact for users who want to embark on the mentoring program.21:13
faulkes-I think that would indicate a lack of planning on our part if we have to ask them what we want to name the program21:13
* ScottK thinks we probably have more important details to obsess over.21:13
* faulkes- agrees21:13
owhAh, we're talking about naming the thing :-) NM21:14
* nealmcb looks around for the best summary-to-date of the concept - is it one-to-one? or might the mentor hand someone off to a subject-matter-expert? length of time involved?21:14
mathiazok - so I'll keep the mentoring name for now21:14
mruizthe name is just a detail21:14
mathiazfor now, I've summarized my ideas about the Mentoring program on a wiki page21:15
mathiazhttps://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Mentoring21:15
nealmcb:-)21:15
mathiazso - let's move on21:16
mathiaz[TOPIC] Forum reporting21:16
MootBotNew Topic:  Forum reporting21:16
mathiazfaulkes-: any news on that ?21:16
faulkes-yes21:16
faulkes-first, the sticky has been put in place, it has been up for a week and has seen 180 views21:16
faulkes-about ~30 / day or so21:17
dendrobatesfaulkes-: I noticed the sticky is locked for comments.  I21:17
faulkes-next, I began a project to help categorize, summarize and visualize forum questions, from a broad level narrowing it down21:18
mathiazfaulkes-: that looks promising21:18
jdstranddendrobates: you were cut-off at ...comments. I21:18
faulkes-dendrobates: yes, it is locked, I will add a note asking for any additions or changes to be sent to me21:18
faulkes-otherwise it tends to grow and the original content gets last paged, which makes it less than useful21:19
dendrobatesfaulkes-: I was wondering about general feedback, though21:19
faulkes-understood, I will look into addressing that21:19
faulkes-as I was saying, visualizing forum questions21:19
faulkes-the purpose behind it is to give that "a picture is worth a thousand words" feeling, so that we can easily see what the most common areas of discussion are21:20
faulkes-and to further be able to drill that down to specific issues21:20
* nijaba hugs faulkes-21:20
faulkes-version 0.1 is avaiable at http://ubuntu.oss-mgmt.com/21:20
faulkes-for those of you who had a pre-look, it has been updated with additional graphs21:21
* nealmcb oohs and ahhs :-)21:21
owhvnice21:21
faulkes-version 0.2 will include further data, such as links to the forum posts themselves and better categorization21:22
* michalski sits back down21:22
mathiazfaulkes-: great. How does the categorization work ?21:22
faulkes-currently, it is one big regex, it will be moved to a array/hash algorithm to better be able to categorize properly21:22
mathiazfaulkes-: could you give a quick overview ?21:22
faulkes-it's complicated by the nature of human expression and terminology21:23
mathiazfaulkes-: right.21:23
faulkes-i.e. vsftp as an ftp server, would also match in the regex for sftp21:23
mathiazfaulkes-: do you plan to make the code available ?21:23
faulkes-giving a false positive21:23
faulkes-yes, I intend to place the code on LP21:24
michalskiwhere do you get the stats, faulkes?21:24
faulkes-that will be done within the next week21:24
michalski(source)21:24
faulkes-the backend is written in perl, it connects to the forum and slices out the forum subject/topics21:24
nealmcbnice that you seem to distinguish between samba questions that are related directory services vs file serving21:25
michalskiok, so theres no real place to add in your stats21:25
faulkes-add in how?21:25
michalskieg: a little form online to mark off what your servers uses and how21:26
nealmcbcan you analyze mailing lists?  irc logs?21:26
nealmcbis it message-by-message or topic-by-topic?21:26
faulkes-nealmcb: with some modification, yes, it likely could do that on a topic by topic basis21:26
mathiazI think it's a good start.21:26
nijabamichalski: faulkes and I are preparing a survey for that21:26
faulkes-message by message is more difficult because multiple things can be related within a single message21:26
michalskiok thanks nijaba21:26
mathiazOnce you've put up the code on LP, some people may start to implement other backends.21:26
* nealmcb hugs faulkes21:26
faulkes-mathiaz: well, I believe that this provides value to us, but it will likely be a tool other teams can use as well21:27
nealmcbthe links to messages will be great21:27
mathiazfaulkes-: I think so too.21:27
* michalski agrees21:27
owhYou could even apply it to all of Ubuntu.21:27
mathiazfaulkes-: but let's start small21:27
michalskiexperimental21:27
faulkes-yes, I'm taking it step by step right now21:28
mathiazFujitsu: and get something usefull for analysing the ubuntu server forums21:28
faulkes-feedback on category naming, sub-categories, and other questions are all welcome21:28
mathiazfaulkes-: ^^21:28
mathiazFujitsu: sorry21:28
nealmcband then try to link things the other way - from common questions back to documentation, faqs and wikis, and identify outages in those21:28
mathiazright - so there are a lot of ideas to improve.21:28
owhfaulkes-: Would it be useful to make the configuration of all of that a wiki page?21:28
mathiazlet's start small21:28
faulkes-agreed21:28
mathiazfaulkes-: so - could you setup a LP project and push your code there ?21:29
faulkes-yes, I will do that21:29
mathiazfaulkes-: we'll take it from there.21:29
faulkes-add it as an action item so I don't forget ;)21:29
mathiaz[ACTION] faulkes- to setup a LP project for the forums analyser21:29
MootBotACTION received:  faulkes- to setup a LP project for the forums analyser21:29
* nijaba notes that faulkes- now masters bzr21:29
mathiaz[TOPIC] Server survey21:30
MootBotNew Topic:  Server survey21:30
mathiazfaulkes-: nijaba : updates ?21:30
faulkes-nijaba: I have you to thank for that21:30
faulkes-mathiaz: patches have been submitted and merged to it, I will let nijaba answer more fully21:30
nijabasoren, I am about to push v.2 of the survey tonight21:30
michalskilooking at server forum questions for directory services, i see alot about samba in general21:30
nijabaThanks for a ll the feedback, I think it has improved a lot21:31
michalskiwe should recommend to the docs team to improve the docs on it21:31
nijabait is not too late to send me an email if you want to test drive it :)21:31
michalskiyou didnt give me your email :P21:31
owhmichalski: It's on the wiki page.21:32
faulkes-nijaba: how comfortable are we with setting a release date for taking the server?21:32
faulkes-err, survey21:32
michalskinick barcet?21:32
nijabawell, we still have some hosting issues21:32
* faulkes- nods21:32
nijabaI am working on it21:32
michalskiok thanks21:32
faulkes-ok, from my perspective, I want to have some advance on it so we can properly publicize it to get maximum responses/exposure21:33
faulkes-i.e. UWN, Fridge, Forums, etc..21:33
owhCan we find a way to collectively digg it for example?21:33
nijabawell, the way we have the question, I don't think we will be able to launch it before April21:33
nealmcbowh - good idea21:34
kirklandsomeone needs to post a blog entry explaining the motivation and goals etc, and then post it to slashdot21:34
mathiaznijaba: before hardy is released ?21:34
kirklandand hope slashdot picks it up21:34
nijabamathiaz: yes or around21:34
kirklandand then pray your server can handle the traffic ;-)21:34
nijabaso I guess next step is to prepare the text for the annoucement21:34
owhnijaba: So, lime doesn't host for us then?21:34
mathiazso - could we come up with a list of website/ressource we wanna post to ?21:35
nijabano, lime is an app, not a hosting provider21:35
owhI'll be happy to come up with a list and email it to the list.21:35
faulkes-mathiaz: I think that would be wise, although we want to selectively target the most appropriate sources, rather than shotgun effect it21:35
nijabaowh, whu not use the wiki?21:35
nijabas/whu/why21:35
mathiazowh: great - I'd rather use a wiki21:35
owhWorks for me.21:35
nijabaanybody up to start the announcement?21:36
* michalski hides :P21:36
owhI'll draft one for the wiki page.21:36
mathiazowh: we should target both the ubuntu community and server/companies related sites ?21:36
kirklandwho's blog is most heavily read?21:36
faulkes-oh, on the subject of forums, if you are doing testing on a new release of a package, feel free to notify me and I can post it to the forums if it's server related21:36
michalskicouldnt we send it to the fridge?21:36
mathiaz[ACTION] owh to draft a wiki page with a list of ressource where we can announce the survey21:36
MootBotACTION received:  owh to draft a wiki page with a list of ressource where we can announce the survey21:36
owhmathiaz: I'll come up with the first list, it will be a wiki page so you can add to it :)21:36
owhI'll also draft the announcement text.21:37
mathiazowh: exactly.21:37
* nijaba hugs owh21:37
owh:)21:37
* michalski takes a kodak moments21:37
mathiazowh: could you create one page under wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/ with the text announcement and a list of ressource ?21:37
faulkes-note: the stats collected by the forum reporting tool will also be able to be analyzed by full / year / month21:37
michalski* moment21:37
mathiazfaulkes-: zul uploaded a new version of ebox21:38
owhmathiaz: Yup, consider it done.21:38
mathiazfaulkes-: could you post in the forums about testing ebox ?21:38
zulmathiaz: yep I sent out another announcement to ask for testers again and for feedback21:38
faulkes-I saw that message, there is already a current thread for him in forums, I will update it21:39
mathiazfaulkes-: where did you post ? in the server forums or the developer forums ?21:39
faulkes-server21:39
owhmathiaz: Will wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/ServerSurveyLaunch work for you?21:39
mathiazfaulkes-: ok.21:39
mathiazowh: WFM21:39
michalskiis there a GUI for the firewall config?21:40
* michalski wonders21:40
michalski(sorry for a tad offtopic21:40
zulmichalski: install ebox-firewall=<version from email>21:40
michalskiok21:41
mathiaz[TOPIC] libdb migration21:41
MootBotNew Topic:  libdb migration21:41
mathiazScottK: what's new on this front21:41
ScottKI updated the wiki.21:42
ScottKTo show what needs to be done for 4.321:42
* ScottK hasn't done much with it since due to time pressure.21:42
mathiazScottK: are these transition easy to do ?21:43
ScottKmathiaz: Yes.21:43
mathiazScottK: I'm looking for easy tasks to do for beginners.21:43
mathiazScottK: Do you think these are good task for new comers ?21:43
mathiazScottK: bitesize tasks ?21:44
ScottKmathiaz: You need to grab the source and make sure they don't use transactions (grep'ing the source is enough) and if not, it's just updating the build-dep/depends21:44
ScottKYes.21:44
mathiazScottK: ok.21:44
ScottKIf it uses transactions, then leave it mark it and leave it for someone else.  Those are harder.21:44
mathiazScottK: ok.21:44
mathiaz[TOPIC] Documentation21:44
MootBotNew Topic:  Documentation21:44
mathiazsommer: ?21:45
sommerlikewise-open section is available for your reviewing pleasure21:45
sommerhttp://doc.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/serverguide/C/likewise-open.html21:45
MootBotLINK received:  http://doc.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/serverguide/C/likewise-open.html21:45
nijaba\o/21:45
mathiazsommer: which section are left ?21:46
sommerbacula, virt-manager/libvirt, ebox21:46
sommerthen updates21:46
mathiazsommer: well - let's start with virtualization21:46
sommerpath name, package names, etc21:46
sommermathiaz: ya, I'm sort of stuck on that one21:46
mathiazsommer: yes - that's actually quit an important one.21:47
sommersince I don't have KVM friendly hardware21:47
mathiazsommer: it's one of the big feature for hardy21:47
sommermathiaz: ya I know21:47
sommerI was thinking of documenting what I can then submit it to those with compatible hardware for testing21:47
sommershould have something by the end of the week21:48
sommerother ideas are welcome :-)21:48
mathiaz[TOPIC] Any Other Business21:48
MootBotNew Topic:  Any Other Business21:48
nealmcbhas anyone made a vm image of e.g. hardy alpha 5?  faster/easier to try out than a cdimage for many folks21:49
mathiazanyone wants to add something ?21:49
michalskion the note of documentation... samba docs, are they sufficient at current levels?21:49
mathiaznealmcb: you can use ubuntu-vm-builder21:49
owhHow do action points from previous meetings get carried forward?21:49
ScottKmathiaz: You're going to merge cyrus-sasl2, right?21:49
mathiazmichalski: which part of the documentation are you talking about ?21:49
mathiazScottK: working on it with kirkland21:50
nealmcbsommer: I'd say ebox doc would also be good sooner rather than later - help attract testers21:50
ScottKmathiaz: Great.21:50
faulkes-qemu + ubuntu + ppc != work at least for me with 8.0421:50
kirklandScottK: some nasty man page merge issues, working through them still21:50
mathiazowh: they should be.21:50
nealmcbmathiaz: yes indeed - just wondering if anyone had done it, if there would be a way to distribute such things, etc21:50
sommernealmcb: yep, hope to have something soon as well21:50
faulkes-install screen comes up but then video goes all wonky, but it's ppc-server, so I can't really expect alot on that21:50
mathiazowh: there is a section about bacula in the ReportingPage21:50
michalskidocumentation for directory services, from the stats of faulkes, we can see that alot of questions are for directory services21:50
michalskimore specificly samba21:50
owhmathiaz: Cool.21:51
nealmcbafter my big symposium next week I should have more time to try that out21:51
faulkes-one of the key things I have found with the forums, is that pointers to documentation, more often than not, do not point to the official documentation21:51
mathiazmichalski: ok - did you have a look at the samba section on the server guide ?21:51
faulkes-and this causes issues21:51
faulkes-I'm still thinking of a way to properly address that, which is more a social issue21:52
michalskijust a tad mathiaz21:52
nealmcbfaulkes-: yeah - hopefully the likewise work is exactly what a lot of them need21:52
* faulkes- nods21:52
mathiazmichalski: if you have any comments or modification, don't hesitate to submit a patch to sommer21:52
mathiazmichalski: or update the wiki pages.21:52
ScottKfaulkes-: I think more effort is needed to merge stuff into the official documentation and prune redudant info from the community docs.21:52
michalskiok21:52
mathiazmichalski: the roadmap has a list of pages related to samba.21:52
faulkes-ScottK: I can't argue against that, I will investigate possibly getting involved21:53
mathiazmichalski: that needs some cleanup21:53
michalskiI'll see what I can do, but I have zilch experience with Directory services21:54
nealmcbfaulkes-: yes - I agree that figuring out how to link forum questions to our best documentation would help a lot21:54
michalskieither way, i have to go or i'll be late for a meeting out in the real world21:54
michalskibye21:54
nealmcbgetting better google search results for our documentation would help there also21:54
faulkes-nealmcb: I will ponder and get creative after a couple of martinis21:54
nealmcbmaybe advertising how to do google searches specific to the official documentation would help21:55
owhMake it a sticky.21:56
sommerdid we come to a consensus on the documentation motd bug?21:56
mathiazsommer: no.21:56
mathiazsommer: it's part of a bigger question about seed managment.21:57
sommermathiaz: I'm with ya, is there still time to update the motd?21:57
sommerseems like that may be a new feature?21:57
mathiazsommer: well - given that we're past FF, it may be not late.21:57
mathiazsommer: it depends on the solution we choose to implement.21:58
mathiazsommer: well - given that we're past FF, it may be too late.21:58
sommermathiaz: gotcha, I'll try and focus on that at the beginning of the next release cycle21:59
nealmcbmathiaz: who are the right people to decide what to do with it?21:59
mathiaznealmcb: people21:59
sommerseems like general updates were more important this time :-)21:59
ScottKWe are21:59
mathiaznealmcb: from the platform21:59
owhIs there a meeting after us?22:00
mathiaznealmcb: we had a discussion with cjwatson last week22:00
nealmcb5 years of having to explain to people how to get to the documentation from the command line would be a drag22:00
mathiazand we know what's involved now.22:00
sommernealmcb: surely it'll only be the first few months... heh22:00
mathiazwell - we've got to move on.22:00
mathiaz[TOPIC] Agree on next meeting date and time.22:00
MootBotNew Topic:  Agree on next meeting date and time.22:00
mathiaznext week, same place, same time ?22:01
faulkes-WFM22:01
owh.22:01
nijaba+122:01
zulokiely dokely22:01
sommero//22:01
nealmcbI'll be busy then - see you the week after22:01
owhsoren: You got a moment?22:01
faulkes-good meeting folks22:01
nealmcbmathiaz: good work - quick meeting22:01
mathiazgreat then- Thanks all - see ya next week22:02
nijabathanks *22:02
kirklandthanks22:02
mathiaz#endmeeting22:02
MootBotMeeting finished at 22:02.22:02
sommerlater all22:02
=== ubotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 28 Feb 14:00 UTC: Desktop Team | 29 Feb 12:00 UTC: MOTU | 05 Mar 07:00 UTC: Platform Team | 08 Mar 11:00 UTC: Kubuntu Developers

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