=== neversfelde_ is now known as neversfelde
dholbachHello everybody and welcome to another MOTU Q&A session12:59
dholbachwho do we have here for the session today? :)13:00
* Iulian waves13:00
dholbachhi Iulian - how are you doing? :)13:00
man-didholbach: hello13:01
IulianI am good, thanks :-)13:01
dholbachhey man-di13:01
dholbachso did anybody bring a few questions for today? :)13:01
IulianUhmm, I don't have any, not yet.13:02
dholbachanything you've been working on? anything you wondered?13:02
dholbachhi allee_13:04
dholbachallee_: here for the MOTU Q&A session too? :)13:04
IulianNo, not really, I've been working with the bugsquad in the past few months.13:04
man-didholbach: I would have some questions, but all are probably out of the scope of this session13:04
dholbachIulian: sounds good :)13:04
dholbachman-di: you can try :)13:04
IulianI'm thinking to start working with the MOTU too but I still have a lot to learn.13:05
allee_dholbach: no directly.  reconnect after forced disconnect by telecom13:05
dholbachallee_: ahhh, I see13:05
man-didholbach: I dont wanna crash this session with this, its more about working together of Ubuntu and Debian on Q&A13:05
allee_dholbach: but as I'm here, I can stay for a while and ponder about Q&A :)13:05
dholbachIulian: I think the best way is to start with some bitesize bug you're interested and see where it takes you - there's always somebody in #ubuntu-motu who can help you out if you get stuck13:06
dholbachman-di: is there anything particular you wonder or do you have any idea what could improve?13:06
dholbachman-di: did you get in touch with heno or liw about it already?13:08
Iuliandholbach: Yeah, that too but now I am looking to start packaging from source but I can't find an easy one.13:09
dholbachIulian: I personally liked it better to start work on an existing package and learn more and more by working on existing packages13:10
dholbachalso the thing is: we're past Feature Freeze and can't accept NEW packages (only with special exception) right now13:11
IulianYes, indeed but I thought that if I make a new package I will learn more.13:11
IulianAnd someone from MOTU channel can help with.13:12
allee_Iulian: what helped me a lot was reading/following commit msgs of debian/* changes.13:13
dholbachIulian: in the end it's your call :-)13:13
Iulianallee_: That too.13:13
Iuliandholbach: Yes but I will take your advice and start working with the bitesize bugs first.13:14
dholbachjust try it and see where it takes you :)13:14
man-didholbach: nope, not yet. I more and more wonder how many people seem to work on Java packages in Ubuntu, doing one fix and then never appear again13:15
man-didholbach: for many packages its important to understand how the package works and that cant be learnt at one first look, doing a fix and gone13:15
man-dithis often leads to wrong fixes13:16
dholbachman-di: maybe it needs more team structures to better keep track of what happens - also to try to bind people more to the matter13:16
* txwikinger apologises for being late13:16
dholbachman-di: I absolutely agree13:16
man-didholbach: I have given up on this personally13:16
man-didholbach: I'm not able to keep people in a team it seems13:16
dholbachman-di: why if I may ask?13:16
man-didholbach: people too often get other interest13:17
man-dilike non-java packages13:17
dholbachman-di: sure, you can't prevent that from happening13:17
dholbachI just found that a team with set goals works much better than a bunch of people fixing a bug here and another one there13:17
man-diand java is not that popular among maintainers anyway13:17
dholbachand java is important enough for that13:17
man-didholbach: problem is get the right people that can do the needed work probably13:18
dholbachof course that requires leaders who takes matters in their own hands and set up structures in the beginning13:18
man-didholbach: we better stop here for now, otherwise we kill your session13:19
dholbachman-di: do you think there are people from upstream communities who are interested enough to see their stuff in a good shape in a distribution?13:19
dholbachman-di: I think it's educational and interesting to everybody in here - not sure if there are any other questions right now? are there?13:19
IulianI don't have any questions, go ahead.13:20
man-dimoist upstreams are not interested in distros. they say: we have bundled all needed third party software, just unpack that zip file13:20
dholbach*nod* that's particularly problematic in the java world13:21
* dholbach has seen this already13:21
allee_man-di: about java, isn't there an active debian-java group?13:21
dholbachI know that people have an interest in Java, packaging new applications and so on - of course there are less people up for "getting the infrastructure" right13:21
man-diand most maintainers dont like Java....users like java but most of them dont want to take the hurdle to do bug fixing or whatever is needed13:21
man-diallee_: well some people are active but about 50% or more is done by me13:22
* dholbach hugs man-di for his good work :)13:22
* allee_ too13:22
=== allee_ is now known as allee
man-didholbach: I have to say I'm a bit bothered by this13:22
dholbachman-di: I can imagine13:23
man-diso my idea is to get people from Ubuntu and Debian together to get more work done13:23
man-diperhaps this works out somehow13:23
dholbachman-di: I can't promise you it will work, but why don't you and I, doko and jcastro sit together and think about energizing such a team?13:23
dholbachI'm happy to help brainstorming there13:24
* txwikinger hugs dholbach for all his good work13:24
man-ditwo small groups combined make a bigger group13:24
* dholbach hugs txwikinger back - thanks :)13:24
man-didholbach: I'm all for it13:24
dholbachrock and roll :)13:24
dholbachare there good java "example packages"?13:25
dholbachor a java team TODO list?13:25
man-didholbach: for libraries, yes: for apps: not really13:25
=== Pricey is now known as PriceChild
txwikingeror bytesize problems13:25
txwikingerI think bytesize problems are very good for new people trying if they like to do it13:25
man-didholbach: my current TODO is: http://pkg-java.alioth.debian.org/cgi-bin/qareport.cgi13:25
man-didholbach: this checks SVN, debian BTS and archive13:26
dholbachman-di: good work13:26
man-didholbach: stolen from debian pkg-perl group13:26
dholbachman-di: if you find the time, do you think you could add some "reference packages" to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PackagingGuide/Lists/ReferencePackages ?13:27
dholbachman-di: I don't know much about java, but I was asked a couple of times "how do I do java packaging" - just listing a few "good ones" would be a good start already13:27
man-didholbach: not yet, still at work...13:28
dholbachman-di: do you know if there are a lot of Ubuntu Java related bugs?13:29
dholbachsorry I meant bug reports13:29
man-diI do a private daily multidistrotools run13:30
man-dithere are currentl about 30 bugs in java packages that are maintained by pkg-java in debian13:30
man-dinot all java packages are maintained by pkg-java in Debian13:31
dholbachright, my question was rather: are there a lot of java bugs reported in Launchpad?13:31
man-disome of them probably already fixed13:31
man-diI meant the bugs reported in Launchpad against packages pkg-java maintains in Debian13:32
dholbachahhh ok13:32
man-diin Debian BTS we have some reports more13:32
dholbachwere they of good quality?13:32
man-disome are, some not13:32
man-disometimes I miss bugs because they are in launchpad and I never saw them13:33
dholbachI found that people who filed good bug reports sometimes could be dragged into helping out fixing them13:33
man-diso a first big help would be to always forward launchpad bugs to debian bts13:33
dholbachsome of them to upstream to?13:33
man-ditracking upstream bugs is another issue13:34
man-diwhen maintaining a lot of packages you cant follow all upstream mailing lists/bug trackers13:34
dholbachsounds like a bullet points on a good todo list :)13:34
dholbachof course not13:34
man-diso some bugs might be fixed upstream already13:34
man-didholbach: yes13:35
man-dithere are many tasks beginners could do13:35
dholbachin Launchpad you can add an upstream task to the bug report (and keep it empty) to indicate: this needs forwarding upstream13:35
man-dilike creating watch files or so13:35
dholbachI think a wiki page indicating which tasks are suitable for whom might be a good start13:35
dholbachand maybe a kick-off event (like a IRC meeting) to get interested people into it13:35
txwikingerdholbach: for Kubuntu wie have agreed for three new tags13:36
dholbachtxwikinger: which are those?13:36
txwikingerneeds-upstream, upstream, needs-upstream-sync13:36
man-didholbach: your ubuntu week idea was very good, if would have had time...13:36
txwikingerfirst needs someone to forward the bug to upstream13:36
txwikingersecond means there is a pending upstream bug13:36
txwikingerand the last the bug is fixed upstream13:36
txwikingermaybe we should make that a wider policy13:37
man-ditxwikinger: in debian we have something similar with tags and some automatic tool which can track upstream bugzillas and so on13:37
man-ditxwikinger: so tags get automatically set when upstream fixed a bug13:37
dholbachtxwikinger: I can just tell you how the I did this when I worked together with seb128: for 1) we opened an upstream task (you can query LP for a list of those), 2) we didn't have a separate tag for that, 3) marked bugs as 'fix committed' once they were fixed upstream, so we could close them with the next upload13:38
man-diof course the forwarding task is manual13:38
txwikingerthe tracking is already done by LP13:38
txwikingerwhat the tags help is to make lists of those bugs easily13:38
dholbachtxwikinger: you can query those 'states' in LP too (without tags)13:39
dholbachthat's what I tried to say13:40
dholbachbest to ping kiko about it13:40
txwikingerwell.. not the first13:40
txwikingeror you mean you just create an empty upstream one?13:40
dholbachhttps://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bugs?advanced=1 - "Show bugs that need to be forwarded to an upstream bug tracker"13:41
txwikingerI will look inot this13:41
dholbachif there's anything missing that you need, kiko's your man13:41
dholbachman-di: I'll try to set up a mail with ideas I have and mail it out to you and others I think are interested13:42
man-didholbach: cool, thanks for your help13:43
dholbachwill likely be sometime next week13:43
man-didholbach: take your time13:43
dholbachthere are millions of java developers out there - there MUST be people who can help us out :)13:43
dholbachand millions of java developers who'd appreciate a great-working java world in Ubuntu and Debian13:44
man-didholbach: the more I work with Java developers the more I think bad about them...13:44
txwikingercool dholbach13:44
man-didholbach: and I'm one of them...13:44
txwikingerdepressingly I found work for myself again :)13:44
dholbachtxwikinger: there's always work to do :)))13:44
txwikingerI know :)13:44
dholbachdo we have any other questions? :)13:45
txwikingerAre there any urgent things to do for hardy?13:46
dholbachone of my pet peeves are unmet dependencies13:46
dholbachthere are just too many of them13:46
dholbachapt-cache -i unmet    might give you an idea13:46
txwikingerok.. I will resync and look into it13:46
dholbachbut there are millions of other things to work on13:47
dholbachanother pet peeve of mine are all the bugs that have patches attached but nobody had the time to check them out yet13:47
txwikingersorry I fear I can't help out there :)13:47
dholbachor all the bugs that are fixed upstream or in a different distro (easily checkable in LP) and the fix hasn't been incorporated13:47
dholbach(I linked them from http://wiki.ubuntu.com/5-A-Day)13:47
dholbacha lot of them are really low-hanging fruit13:48
txwikingerok.. I have a look there too13:48
dholbachespecially with hardy being an LTS, we should try to get as many of those "nearly fixed bugs" fixed for good13:48
dholbachif that's all the questions we have right now, I'll tend after my dog and go for a walk outside13:51
dholbachthe weather is gorgeous13:51
txwikingerhave fun :)13:51
man-didholbach: have fun13:51
dholbachok... have a great day everybody, weekend too13:51
txwikingerthanks dholbach13:52
dholbachand thanks for showing up and your great questions13:52
dholbachsee you around13:52
=== asac_ is now known as asac
=== dholbach_ is now known as dholbach
=== leonel_ is now known as leonel
=== alleeHol is now known as allee
=== neversfelde_ is now known as neversfelde
LokianOh a smaller room, yay!23:47
LokianAnyone home?23:48
MegaqwertyLokian: indeed.23:48
LokianOh wait, is this a help channel?23:49
LokianThe wiki entry seems to suggest it's not, per say23:49
Lokiandammit x_x23:49
ompaulno it really is not a help channel23:49
LokianAnd there are over 9000 people in there =/23:49
ompaulit is an educational channel more so23:49
ompaulLokian, wrong23:50
ompaulless than 130023:50
LokianO RLY?23:50
Lokianwell bye anyhow23:50
* ompaul scratches his head23:50

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