=== neversfelde_ is now known as neversfelde [12:59] Hello everybody and welcome to another MOTU Q&A session [13:00] who do we have here for the session today? :) [13:00] * Iulian waves [13:00] hi Iulian - how are you doing? :) [13:01] dholbach: hello [13:01] I am good, thanks :-) [13:01] hey man-di [13:01] great [13:01] so did anybody bring a few questions for today? :) [13:02] Uhmm, I don't have any, not yet. [13:02] anything you've been working on? anything you wondered? [13:04] hi allee_ [13:04] allee_: here for the MOTU Q&A session too? :) [13:04] No, not really, I've been working with the bugsquad in the past few months. [13:04] dholbach: I would have some questions, but all are probably out of the scope of this session [13:04] Iulian: sounds good :) [13:04] man-di: you can try :) [13:05] I'm thinking to start working with the MOTU too but I still have a lot to learn. [13:05] dholbach: no directly. reconnect after forced disconnect by telecom [13:05] allee_: ahhh, I see [13:05] dholbach: I dont wanna crash this session with this, its more about working together of Ubuntu and Debian on Q&A [13:05] dholbach: but as I'm here, I can stay for a while and ponder about Q&A :) [13:06] Iulian: I think the best way is to start with some bitesize bug you're interested and see where it takes you - there's always somebody in #ubuntu-motu who can help you out if you get stuck [13:06] man-di: is there anything particular you wonder or do you have any idea what could improve? [13:08] man-di: did you get in touch with heno or liw about it already? [13:09] dholbach: Yeah, that too but now I am looking to start packaging from source but I can't find an easy one. [13:10] Iulian: I personally liked it better to start work on an existing package and learn more and more by working on existing packages [13:11] also the thing is: we're past Feature Freeze and can't accept NEW packages (only with special exception) right now [13:11] Yes, indeed but I thought that if I make a new package I will learn more. [13:12] And someone from MOTU channel can help with. [13:13] Iulian: what helped me a lot was reading/following commit msgs of debian/* changes. [13:13] Iulian: in the end it's your call :-) [13:13] allee_: That too. [13:14] dholbach: Yes but I will take your advice and start working with the bitesize bugs first. [13:14] just try it and see where it takes you :) [13:15] dholbach: nope, not yet. I more and more wonder how many people seem to work on Java packages in Ubuntu, doing one fix and then never appear again [13:15] dholbach: for many packages its important to understand how the package works and that cant be learnt at one first look, doing a fix and gone [13:16] this often leads to wrong fixes [13:16] man-di: maybe it needs more team structures to better keep track of what happens - also to try to bind people more to the matter [13:16] * txwikinger apologises for being late [13:16] man-di: I absolutely agree [13:16] dholbach: I have given up on this personally [13:16] dholbach: I'm not able to keep people in a team it seems [13:16] man-di: why if I may ask? [13:17] dholbach: people too often get other interest [13:17] like non-java packages [13:17] man-di: sure, you can't prevent that from happening [13:17] I just found that a team with set goals works much better than a bunch of people fixing a bug here and another one there [13:17] and java is not that popular among maintainers anyway [13:17] and java is important enough for that [13:18] dholbach: problem is get the right people that can do the needed work probably [13:18] of course that requires leaders who takes matters in their own hands and set up structures in the beginning [13:19] dholbach: we better stop here for now, otherwise we kill your session [13:19] man-di: do you think there are people from upstream communities who are interested enough to see their stuff in a good shape in a distribution? [13:19] man-di: I think it's educational and interesting to everybody in here - not sure if there are any other questions right now? are there? [13:20] I don't have any questions, go ahead. [13:20] moist upstreams are not interested in distros. they say: we have bundled all needed third party software, just unpack that zip file [13:21] *nod* that's particularly problematic in the java world [13:21] * dholbach has seen this already [13:21] man-di: about java, isn't there an active debian-java group? [13:21] I know that people have an interest in Java, packaging new applications and so on - of course there are less people up for "getting the infrastructure" right [13:21] and most maintainers dont like Java....users like java but most of them dont want to take the hurdle to do bug fixing or whatever is needed [13:22] allee_: well some people are active but about 50% or more is done by me [13:22] * dholbach hugs man-di for his good work :) [13:22] * allee_ too === allee_ is now known as allee [13:22] dholbach: I have to say I'm a bit bothered by this [13:23] man-di: I can imagine [13:23] so my idea is to get people from Ubuntu and Debian together to get more work done [13:23] perhaps this works out somehow [13:23] man-di: I can't promise you it will work, but why don't you and I, doko and jcastro sit together and think about energizing such a team? [13:24] I'm happy to help brainstorming there [13:24] * txwikinger hugs dholbach for all his good work [13:24] two small groups combined make a bigger group [13:24] absolutely [13:24] * dholbach hugs txwikinger back - thanks :) [13:24] dholbach: I'm all for it [13:24] rock and roll :) [13:25] are there good java "example packages"? [13:25] or a java team TODO list? [13:25] dholbach: for libraries, yes: for apps: not really === Pricey is now known as PriceChild [13:25] or bytesize problems [13:25] I think bytesize problems are very good for new people trying if they like to do it [13:25] dholbach: my current TODO is: http://pkg-java.alioth.debian.org/cgi-bin/qareport.cgi [13:26] dholbach: this checks SVN, debian BTS and archive [13:26] man-di: good work [13:26] dholbach: stolen from debian pkg-perl group [13:26] *g* [13:26] :-) [13:27] man-di: if you find the time, do you think you could add some "reference packages" to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/PackagingGuide/Lists/ReferencePackages ? [13:27] man-di: I don't know much about java, but I was asked a couple of times "how do I do java packaging" - just listing a few "good ones" would be a good start already [13:28] dholbach: not yet, still at work... [13:28] OK [13:29] man-di: do you know if there are a lot of Ubuntu Java related bugs? [13:29] sorry I meant bug reports [13:30] I do a private daily multidistrotools run [13:30] there are currentl about 30 bugs in java packages that are maintained by pkg-java in debian [13:31] not all java packages are maintained by pkg-java in Debian [13:31] right, my question was rather: are there a lot of java bugs reported in Launchpad? [13:31] some of them probably already fixed [13:32] I meant the bugs reported in Launchpad against packages pkg-java maintains in Debian [13:32] ahhh ok [13:32] gotcha [13:32] in Debian BTS we have some reports more [13:32] were they of good quality? [13:32] some are, some not [13:33] sometimes I miss bugs because they are in launchpad and I never saw them [13:33] I found that people who filed good bug reports sometimes could be dragged into helping out fixing them [13:33] *nod* [13:33] so a first big help would be to always forward launchpad bugs to debian bts [13:33] some of them to upstream to? [13:33] too? [13:33] yes [13:34] tracking upstream bugs is another issue [13:34] when maintaining a lot of packages you cant follow all upstream mailing lists/bug trackers [13:34] sounds like a bullet points on a good todo list :) [13:34] of course not [13:34] so some bugs might be fixed upstream already [13:35] dholbach: yes [13:35] there are many tasks beginners could do [13:35] in Launchpad you can add an upstream task to the bug report (and keep it empty) to indicate: this needs forwarding upstream [13:35] absolutely [13:35] like creating watch files or so [13:35] I think a wiki page indicating which tasks are suitable for whom might be a good start [13:35] and maybe a kick-off event (like a IRC meeting) to get interested people into it [13:36] dholbach: for Kubuntu wie have agreed for three new tags [13:36] txwikinger: which are those? [13:36] needs-upstream, upstream, needs-upstream-sync [13:36] dholbach: your ubuntu week idea was very good, if would have had time... [13:36] first needs someone to forward the bug to upstream [13:36] second means there is a pending upstream bug [13:36] and the last the bug is fixed upstream [13:37] maybe we should make that a wider policy [13:37] txwikinger: in debian we have something similar with tags and some automatic tool which can track upstream bugzillas and so on [13:37] txwikinger: so tags get automatically set when upstream fixed a bug [13:38] txwikinger: I can just tell you how the I did this when I worked together with seb128: for 1) we opened an upstream task (you can query LP for a list of those), 2) we didn't have a separate tag for that, 3) marked bugs as 'fix committed' once they were fixed upstream, so we could close them with the next upload [13:38] of course the forwarding task is manual [13:38] the tracking is already done by LP [13:38] what the tags help is to make lists of those bugs easily [13:39] txwikinger: you can query those 'states' in LP too (without tags) [13:40] that's what I tried to say [13:40] best to ping kiko about it [13:40] well.. not the first [13:40] or you mean you just create an empty upstream one? [13:40] yes [13:40] ah [13:41] https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bugs?advanced=1 - "Show bugs that need to be forwarded to an upstream bug tracker" [13:41] I will look inot this [13:41] if there's anything missing that you need, kiko's your man [13:41] ROCK [13:42] man-di: I'll try to set up a mail with ideas I have and mail it out to you and others I think are interested [13:43] dholbach: cool, thanks for your help [13:43] will likely be sometime next week [13:43] dholbach: take your time [13:43] there are millions of java developers out there - there MUST be people who can help us out :) [13:44] and millions of java developers who'd appreciate a great-working java world in Ubuntu and Debian [13:44] dholbach: the more I work with Java developers the more I think bad about them... [13:44] cool dholbach [13:44] dholbach: and I'm one of them... [13:44] depressingly I found work for myself again :) [13:44] txwikinger: there's always work to do :))) [13:44] I know :) [13:45] do we have any other questions? :) [13:46] Are there any urgent things to do for hardy? [13:46] one of my pet peeves are unmet dependencies [13:46] there are just too many of them [13:46] apt-cache -i unmet might give you an idea [13:46] ok.. I will resync and look into it [13:47] but there are millions of other things to work on [13:47] another pet peeve of mine are all the bugs that have patches attached but nobody had the time to check them out yet [13:47] sorry I fear I can't help out there :) [13:47] or all the bugs that are fixed upstream or in a different distro (easily checkable in LP) and the fix hasn't been incorporated [13:47] (I linked them from http://wiki.ubuntu.com/5-A-Day) [13:48] a lot of them are really low-hanging fruit [13:48] ok.. I have a look there too [13:48] especially with hardy being an LTS, we should try to get as many of those "nearly fixed bugs" fixed for good [13:48] true [13:51] if that's all the questions we have right now, I'll tend after my dog and go for a walk outside [13:51] the weather is gorgeous [13:51] have fun :) [13:51] dholbach: have fun [13:51] ok... have a great day everybody, weekend too [13:52] thanks dholbach [13:52] and thanks for showing up and your great questions [13:52] see you around === asac_ is now known as asac === dholbach_ is now known as dholbach === leonel_ is now known as leonel === alleeHol is now known as allee [18:33] Ksalut === neversfelde_ is now known as neversfelde [23:47] Oh a smaller room, yay! [23:48] Anyone home? [23:48] Lokian: indeed. [23:49] Oh wait, is this a help channel? [23:49] nope [23:49] The wiki entry seems to suggest it's not, per say [23:49] #ubuntu [23:49] dammit x_x [23:49] no it really is not a help channel [23:49] And there are over 9000 people in there =/ [23:49] it is an educational channel more so [23:50] Lokian, wrong [23:50] less than 1300 [23:50] O RLY? [23:50] well bye anyhow [23:50] * ompaul scratches his head