HappyCampdavidm, ping00:49
HappyCampdavidm, any change that snapshot.ubuntu.com could have anonymous rsync access enabled?00:50
GrueMasterHappycamp:  I don't think that would be possible considering there is stuff that can't be public yet in there.01:12
HappyCampGrueMaster, well I want what is on http://snapshot.ubuntu.com/ on rsync01:13
StevenKIn the snapshot? No there isn't.01:13
HappyCampAnd http is wide open from what I can see.01:13
GrueMasterOh.  I thought it was linked from the intel/canonnical wiki.01:14
GrueMasterEh, I'm tired, and I hear my beer calling.01:15
StevenKIt is, the explanation is there, but the snapshots are public.01:15
GrueMasterAt any rate, I just finished testing of the 0228 Beta 2.  Some big issues, mainly in video.  01:16
GrueMasterDon will get it posted to the wiki later.01:17
davidmHappyCamp, If stevenK says it's not then likely it's not, he knows more about that then I do, but why would you need it?01:17
davidmGrueMaster, is that due to the lack of 3D drivers?01:18
GrueMasterPartly.  Also bad helix install.  And moblin-media fails with a "can't run while docked" error?  01:19
StevenKBad Helix install?01:19
StevenKI used the packages Intel made.01:19
GrueMasterthe helix-cip-codecs package had a script that moved software decoders to a backup directory.01:20
StevenKIn which case, divert them or don't install them in the first place.01:20
GrueMasterThey are part of the helix-dbus-server package.01:21
StevenKUnpack order is undeterministic.01:21
GrueMasterthey aren't files that get overwritten either.  01:21
StevenKSo don't ship them in helix-dbus-server, or have helix-cip-codecs Depend on helix-dbus-server, and then divert them away01:21
HappyCampdavidm, I would like rsync access, so that I can ........ rsync from it :)01:22
HappyCampNot critical, but would be convenient for me.01:22
GrueMasterthe reason for doing it this way is so that video playback can be added as new hardware decoders are released.01:22
GrueMasterThis is the third engineering drop.  It adds support for MPEG4 and VC1.  Previous drop added h264.  First drop was MPEG-2.01:23
StevenKGrueMaster: There are mechanisms provided by dpkg already for this, you divert away the ones that will be replaced. This means if, for example, helix-dbus-server gets upgraded and helix-cip-codecs don't, the hardware accelerated codecs don't get overwritten.01:23
GrueMasterthey are entirely different files.01:24
GrueMasterthat's the problem01:24
StevenKBut they have the same filename01:24
GrueMasterno, they do not.01:24
StevenKYou just don't want Helix to use them01:24
GrueMasterfor example, libipp_hx_vc1vd.sop replaces wmv9*.so01:25
StevenKRight, so your preinst/postrm in helix-cip-codecs is making assumptions that helix-dbus-server is already unpacked.01:25
StevenKWhich is bad. Pre-Depend on it01:26
GrueMasterhey, I just report the issues.  I'll let you and rusty work out the logistics.01:27
GrueMasterAnd from what I can tell, both helix-dbus-server and helix-cip-codecs deb packages are built from the same tree.01:28
GrueMasterThe only source we have access to is helix-dbus-server.  the soft codecs come from another source.01:28
GrueMasterand the hardware decoders (CIP) are given to us as binary only as well.01:29
StevenKI'm not sure what you're getting at.01:29
GrueMasterAll I'm doing is taking a beta image that was provided by you and David, and reporting the results of my testing.01:30
GrueMasterI have to leave.  See you all online tomorrow.01:31
davidmInteresting, StevenK we clearly need to get better information from Intel01:32
* StevenK nods01:32
StevenKIt's a packaging issue01:32
StevenKWell, it can made into one01:32
StevenKcan be. I swear I can type some days01:33
mjg59Hey, if teaching the intricacies of .deb packaging was easy, n-m wouldn't take so long01:51
StevenKn-m being Debian NM or Network Mangler? :-)01:52
mjg59Debian n-m01:52
StevenKI thought so, but best to check. :-)01:53
mjg59But yeah, it just sounds like a pre-depends01:54
StevenKOr different packaging.01:54
* StevenK will investigate closely after dealing with the daily builds.01:54
MutantBCim interested in ubuntu mobile03:00
MutantBCto load to our 7" devices03:00
MutantBCis there a way how we can install ubuntu mobile to usb flash  built-in to motherboard03:05
rustylMutantBC, how is the flash exposed to the operating system?03:07
rustylfor example... if you are talking about the tiny flash part that most desktop boards use for the BIOS, then the answer is normally no since the BIOS locks write access to prevent the BIOS from getting corrupted by system software03:09
rustylMutantBC, but... if you are talking about a device that uses a solid state disk (SSD) for system software, then yea... it just looks like a hard drive to the OS03:10
MutantBCi believe the device is using the SSD03:14
MutantBCright now we're using a via C7-M processor03:17
MutantBCvia vx800U chipset03:18
MutantBCright now im downloading the menlow_full_install_usb.img installer03:21
MutantBCwe have a system storage of 2gb NAN flash (SLC)03:26
MutantBCthe menlow_full_install_usb.img, i've burned it to a normal CD-RW and will try to install to our 7" device using a dvd-rom...i hope the installation is straight forward03:50
MutantBCrustyl, when will UME be release in full version? right now, its in alpha release right?03:54
MutantBChello all04:00
MutantBCim having a problem writing the image file to the CD04:00
MutantBCi've download the .img from http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/moblin/hardy/menlow_crownbeach/current/04:01
StevenKMutantBC: The image is meant to be installed via a USB flash drive.04:01
StevenKIt isn't an iso04:01
MutantBCbut when I try to burned it to CD, empty files in the CD04:01
StevenKYes, because the image is a VFAT filesystem.04:01
MutantBCoh i see04:01
MutantBCis there a way I can write it to CD?04:02
MutantBCor is there a windows tool to write http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/moblin/hardy/menlow_crownbeach/current/ to usb flash drive?04:03
StevenKrawrite should be able to do it04:05
StevenKI *think*. I'm not certain since I've not tried.04:05
MutantBCso i have to have ubuntu/kubuntu 7.10 desktop version installed on a PC then use https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileAndEmbedded/CreatingAnImageForUMEDevice04:07
MutantBCto create an ISO CD?04:07
StevenKThat will still create a VFAT img04:07
MutantBChow do I make an installer?04:09
StevenKI have no idea about that, sorry.04:10
MutantBCis there a way how we can create an iso for ubunto mobile?06:44
MutantBCi've downloaded an img file from http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/moblin/hardy/menlow_full/current/06:45
MutantBCwhere can I download the iso version of this img?06:46
MutantBC is there a way how we can create an iso for ubunto mobile?07:01
MutantBCi've downloaded an img file from http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/moblin/hardy/menlow_full/current/07:01
MutantBCwhere can I download the iso version of this img?07:01
StevenKThere isn't one, I'm afraid07:01
MutantBCi've use the rawrite 07:14
MutantBCthe one you suggest07:14
MutantBCafter doing dd to rewrite .img file to usb flash drive07:15
MutantBCdo i have to instantiate any script/batch file from the usb flash drive?07:15
StevenKJust boot off it07:16
MutantBCi got missing operating system07:16
StevenKIt will wipe everything off the hard drive it finds07:16
MutantBCi got missing operating system when i boot it from usb flash drive07:18
MutantBCis there something missing?07:21
MutantBCthe rawrite parameters im using are07:22
MutantBCdd if=my path\menlow_full_install-usb.img of=\\.\usbpath: bs=1M07:23
MutantBCthe files inside .img file extracted to the usb flash drive07:23
StevenKYou should use of=/dev/sdb or so07:24
MutantBCbut when I tried to boot it from the 7" device, it says Missing operating system07:24
larsemilwhats menlow? the projectname?07:25
larsemilaha the platform07:31
=== doko_ is now known as doko
MutantBCim using windows right now07:42
MutantBCthis of=/dev/sdb is for linux OS command line07:43
MutantBCim using windows right now07:43
MutantBCill try to download the gutsy version of ubuntu mobile07:46
MutantBCand will try to extract it to usb flash drive and boot it to the 7" device07:46
MutantBChave anyone successfully installed ubuntu mobile to a 7" system storage NAND flash?07:52
larsemilthis channel is not so active. but did you try the image-creator tool in gutsy made for this purpose?07:55
amitkMutantBC: is this an x86-based system?08:54
=== asac_ is now known as asac
MutantBClarsemil: I havent tried the image-creator tool08:59
MutantBCI've emailed ubuntu on where to download the ubuntu mobile and he just point to http://cdimage.ubuntu.com/moblin/hardy/menlow_full/current/09:02
MutantBCi've also tried the gutsy09:02
MutantBCbut failed to boot on the 7" device09:06
larsemilMutantBC: well it is a pre-alpha or something like this isnt it?09:29
MutantBCamitk: yes its x8610:03
MutantBClarsemil:i think its a pre-alpha10:03
larsemili just mean - dont expect to much. :)10:08
larsemilMutantBC: you trying to run it on a eeepc?10:08
MutantBCim too excited to test it to the 7" device10:22
MutantBCsimilar device10:22
MutantBCsimilar to eeepc10:22
larsemilif you get it running send me a pm. got a eee and would like to try10:23
MutantBCbut i've installed the xubuntu alpha release though10:24
larsemili have xubuntu running on mine. :)10:26
larsemilnot hardy though10:27
MutantBCbut wireless not detected10:31
MutantBCseems i have to find a driver10:31
MutantBCi hope i can make the ubuntu mobile work on this device10:31
=== Mithrand1r is now known as Mithrandir
=== cprov is now known as cprov-lunch
=== andy_ is now known as andy_lin
=== asac__ is now known as asac
=== ubotu is now known as ubotu`
=== ubotu` is now known as ubotu
smagounasac: did tonyespy talk to you about network manager ftbfs (bug 194546)? It's a blocker for us right now, do you have time to take a look?15:29
ubotuLaunchpad bug 194546 in network-manager "FTBFS in latest archive rebuild test" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/19454615:29
asacsmagoun: if its ftbfs because of libnl, i will upload 0.6.6 RC2 today - that should fix it15:30
smagounasac: it's the libnl problem, yup. Thanks for the info. Would you mind letting tony or me know when you're done with the upload? Thanks.15:31
asacsmagoun: https://code.edge.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-dev/network-manager/upstream.0.6.x15:31
asacif you want to try a spin15:31
asacaeh sorry15:31
asacwrong branch15:31
asachmm ... my push did not succeed for some reason15:31
* asac looking15:31
asac_smagoun: https://code.edge.launchpad.net/~ubuntu-core-dev/network-manager/ubuntu.0.6.x15:46
asac_now its up15:46
asac_still UNRELEASED though15:46
asac_testing appreciated ;)15:46
smagounasac_: Thanks! Tony + I will take a look today.15:46
=== asac_ is now known as asac
GrueMasterdavidm: ping17:09
davidmGrueMaster, on-phone now I'll ping you17:09
tonyespyChickenCutlass: we gave them 2.6.24-8-lpia to build their drivers... just sent you an email w/the details17:28
davidmamitk, ping17:34
GrueMasterlool ping17:37
loolGrueMaster: pong17:40
loolGrueMaster: BTW, you can ask directly, this allows me to respond immediately when I see it17:41
GrueMasterPackaging question.  How do I specify a dependency on a kernel module that is either in a stand alone package or in the linux-ubuntu-modules package?17:42
loolGrueMaster: With "|" you can list OR dependencies17:42
mjg59GrueMaster: Depends: my-module-package | linux-kernel-package (>=2.6.24-bonghits)17:42
loole.g. python (>= 2.5) | python-elementtree means either you need python >= 2.5 or you need the other package17:42
GrueMasterOk.  I'll give it a whirl.17:43
loolMake sure you version the kernel dep properly to ensure you have the module17:43
GrueMasterI'm building Beta 8 of the video drivers for testing.  I wanted to make sure the packages are not going to mess up apt-get later down the road (like they do now).17:43
agoliveiramjg59: Are you all set to the Bossa conference?17:52
mjg59agoliveira: Yup17:53
loolmjg59: And? how is it?!17:53
mjg59lool: Bossa? A week away :)17:54
mjg59I'm not in Brazil yet17:54
agoliveiramjg59: Cool. See you there then.17:54
loolagoliveira: Is that geographically near you?17:54
agoliveiralool: Do you call 3500km near? :)17:54
loolBrazil is too big17:55
agoliveiralool: I'll post a notice on the ML. I was wating for some confirmations as I had to do a lot of things in a very short notice.17:55
agoliveiramjg59: Are you staying at the conference venue, the resort?17:58
agoliveiramjg59: Lucky man :)17:58
agoliveiraI'll be at the hotel next door so to speak. The resort is way too expensive.17:59
* davidm is away: Lunch18:02
loolrustyl: Are you around?18:07
* davidm is back (gone 00:30:38)18:32
rustyllool, i've been in the lab18:41
rustyllool, but i'm back at my computer now18:42
rustyllool, fyi... i hand built moblin-applets in the project root, and then just installed that package in the target.  I haven't tried creating a new target from scratch since you uploaded the new version of libxklavier to the ppa18:45
loolrustyl: Okay18:46
rustyllool, btw, i just got through testing the new image in the lab, and I am seeing some really funny touchscreen behavior.  Do you guys have CB touchscreens?18:47
loolrustyl: I personally don't have one (yet)18:54
loolrustyl: I think some people have18:54
loolrustyl: I heard some people received "LCD"s with a very short cable18:54
amitkdavidm: pong18:55
GrueMasteramtik:  davidm wanted to ask why linux-headers-2.6.24-10[-lpia] was mia from the repository.18:56
GrueMasterIt started as my question, he was going to forward to you.18:56
amitkGrueMaster: from the hardy-repo? or ppa? or snapshot?18:57
GrueMasterNot sure where.  I was trying to build a kernel module for the Beta2 drop I got Friday.  apt-get install linux-headers didn't list the correect version for the build I was given.18:58
amitkGrueMaster: Hardy has moved on to -11 (though it should be identical to -10 as far as lpia is concerned)18:59
davidmamitk, you are already talking over the issue :-)18:59
GrueMasterOk, but won't building against -11 fail to load on -10?  I usually get symbol mismatch errors.18:59
amitk(I am currently working on the intregrating new changes into Ubuntu - should happen by Friday)19:00
amitkGrueMaster: I have to know what you are testing against - but in principle, yes, -11 modules will complain on -1019:01
amitkIIRC, snapshot has -1019:01
GrueMasterI have the beta2 image from davidm that was built on 0228.  The repository lists don't show the kernel version it was built with.19:02
GrueMasterIf the kernel moved, ok (I guess).19:02
GrueMasterSeems bad in that it breaks daily builds and snapshots like this.19:03
GrueMasterOh, wait.  Now they're showing up in apt-get.  Weird.19:03
GrueMasternope, scratch that last.  missread the listing.19:04
GrueMasterI'm currently seeing 2.6.24-4-lpia, 2.6.24-6-lpia, 2.6.24-8-lpia, and 2.6.24-11-lpia19:05
amitkBeta2 has -a 10 kernel - so pointing to snapshot.ubuntu.com should show your -10.19:05
amitkGrueMaster: http://snapshot.ubuntu.com/lpia/ports/pool/main/l/linux/19:05
GrueMasterSo I need to add that to the sources,list?  Seems odd that I should have to modify a snapshot in this way.19:05
amitkGrueMaster: if you are seeing -11, you are working against hardy rather than the snapshot. lool, StevenK should be able to answer about the contents of the snapshot image.19:06
amitkdavidm: ^^^19:06
* GrueMaster is really confused19:07
* amitk is too, intel was supposed to be working against the snapshot19:07
GrueMasterthis is an image drop provided by davidm.19:08
GrueMasterI'm not building a new image, just working with a beta image provided.19:08
davidmThe image we drop is hardy and ppa19:08
davidmWe have made snapshots available to Intel but we never build to the snapshot.19:08
GrueMasterSo, this image you provided me (through Don Johnson) is broken?  I really don't understand.19:09
=== AtomicPunk is now known as ToddBrandt
amitkdavidm: then who is the snapshot for?19:10
davidmOur daily builds are hardy & ppa, the last drop to intel was from the snapshot at the moment it was snapshotted19:10
davidmthe snapshots are for Intel to work against19:10
GrueMasterThat's what I thought.  Unfortunately, if I can't add devel environments to the project used to create that snapshot, it's pointless.19:11
davidmOur milestones will come from hardy & ppa when ever possible and snapshots only if Intel has a change that breaks the hardy & ppa version19:11
amitkdavidm: shouldn't sources.list be modified to point to the snapshot then?19:11
davidmI thought it was, will have to ask StevenK it was the first time we tried this19:12
davidmamitk, this was the first build that we attempted post the big Intel drop19:13
GrueMasterfortunately, I had a build environment from a few days earlier to build against.19:13
davidmand we had to fix a bunch of stuff since the drop was not validated to hardy19:13
GrueMasterbut other developers may not have this, so I need a solution prior to posting this internally for distribution.19:14
amitkdavidm: right19:14
davidmGrueMaster, how are you thinking this image is getting used?19:15
amitkGrueMaster:  I am afraid I can't really help here if the image is pointing to Hardy+PPA. It _will_ pick up newer packages. We better wait for StevenK who should be up in a few hours.19:15
GrueMasterOther driver developers (comms, usb client, dabney, etc).19:15
GrueMasteramitk:  the thing I don't get is the headers used to be there.  I do daily snapshots of hardy+ppa, and that is how I was able to build today.19:16
davidmSo you looking for an image that is from snapshot hardy & snapshot ppa that will not change at all?  Until you are done using it and have to pickup changes from current hardy?19:16
GrueMasterI happened to have a build on 0227 that had the correct kernel headers.19:17
GrueMasterThe thing is, I can go back to a snapshot from 0201 that uses 2.6.24-6-lpia and still pull the headers.  Just not for this snapshot.19:17
davidmWe did not have a snapshot at that time19:18
davidmIS that an internal snapshot?19:18
GrueMasterNo, it is a daily build that I do through MIC to the external repos.19:19
amitkGrueMaster: the old version will disappear when a new one is uploaded to the archive19:19
GrueMasterIt is the same that joe public has access to.19:19
GrueMasteramitk:  Then why is the older versions showing up now?19:20
amitkGrueMaster: I am confused. You said it wasn't showing up. :)19:20
GrueMasterno, I said 2.6.24-10 is not showing up.19:20
davidmGrueMaster, what is it that you are looking for going forward?  A build made from a snapshot of hardy and a snapshot of the ppa for developers to use as a base to develop drivers?19:21
GrueMaster2.6.24-4, 2.6.24-6, 2.6.24-8, and 2.6.24-11 are available.19:21
GrueMasterHere's the scenerio:19:21
GrueMasteryou give us a snapshot that I test.  It is then made available internally to developers.19:21
GrueMasterIf they get it 2-4 weeks after it is created, they still need to be able to build and test off it.19:22
GrueMasterWe had to stop providing moblin snapshots as they were changing weekly and dropping all older revs.19:23
GrueMasterWe have multiple groups internally that use these.  TME's, marketing, developers (outside SSG), etc.19:24
GrueMasterThey don't want to upgrade their images weekly, though, so they pull once a month.19:25
GrueMasteror whenever their schedule allows.19:26
amitkGrueMaster: Since StevenK did the snapshotting, we really should wait for him. I am a measly kernel guy, he understands more about how the archive works.19:27
davidmOK, by using the snapshot of hardy and the snapshot of the ppa they can achive that19:27
GrueMasterAt any rate, if you chroot into the project that the beta2 snapshot was created from, you should be able to apt-get install any devel package you need to develop and test against that snapshot.19:27
davidmThose are not changing19:27
* GrueMaster is back.21:27
loolrustyl: Hmm two of my messages were waiting for moderation on the dev@moblin list and were just rejected21:42
loolThis is because they were cross posts between ubuntu-mobile@ and dev@moblin21:43
loolrustyl: Is moblin enforcing some strict closed post policy?  Am I expected to send them again?21:43
rustyllool, hmmm21:45
loolrustyl: Should I talk to someone else? :)21:45
rustylHappyCamp, HappyCamp_ubuntu ... your managing the dev@moblin.org list, right?21:45
rustyllooks like we are getting some kind of backlog?21:45
HappyCamplool, whoops my bad21:45
HappyCampI assumed it was a non-subscribed issue21:46
HappyCamplool, I just changed it to not care about number of recipients21:47
loolHappyCamp: I don't think it was the number of recipients, it was my sending address21:49
loolI use @ubuntu.com as from on ubuntu lists, but not otherwise21:49
HappyCamplool, yes it does stop on that21:49
HappyCampIt is a closed email list, in that addresses have to be subscribed in order to send.21:49
loolSo it was held for moderation for most of today, and poof21:50
HappyCampAnti-spam measure21:50
HappyCampI just reject them and make people subscribe if they want to send.21:50
HappyCampYou can subscribe mutliple accounts and set them to not receive email.  Then you can send from them.21:50
loolI'll try to do this21:51
HappyCampTrust me, we get a lot of spam to the mailing list lool.  21:52
HappyCampThis blocks it out, luckily.21:52
loolI'm moderator for a 10 or so mailman lists :)21:52
loolBut then not with the same mail filtering I guess21:52
HappyCampI also run bogofilter on it too, so that I don't get bothered with most of the moderator requests.21:52
loolHow many requests do you get per day?21:53
HappyCampWell with the bogofilter stuff, only around 2-5.  So I then train bogofilter if it is spam/ham21:53
HappyCampIf bogofilter thinks it is spam it goes in /dev/null.  If unsure it gets moderated.21:54
HappyCamplool, so far are mailing list has received 5308 spam messages since about August of 200721:55
HappyCampVery few, if any, have actually made it to the mailing list.21:56
asacsmagoun: the bits are avail in hardy now.21:57
smagounasac: Thanks! tonyespy ^^^21:57
rustylis is anyone here noticed that gnome-volume-manager on hardy+ppa is not working?  This results in USB keys / MMC memory cards not getting auto-mounted, which means the media import utility is not getting kicked off22:06
rustyli can see via ps that the gnome-volume-manager process is defunct22:07
tonyespyrustyl: yea...we had a discussion about this yesterday... it has something to do with ConsoleKit & the fact that we're not running gdm.  ChickenCutlass is working on a short-term solution for our customer-build.  We'll try and get something pushed to the PPA soon thereafter22:08
tonyespyrustyl: if you want, email mike ( aka ChickenCutlass ) and he can give you more details22:09
rustyltonyespy, as long as somebody is on it then that's fine by me. 22:11
tonyespyrustyl: cool22:11
rustylStevenK, have you guys started integrating libva yet?  I don't see it in hardy or the ppa, but this is what the hardware accelerated codecs use to access the hardware22:51
davidmrustyl, which license is it under?  We are waiting for clearance from the Intel legal to include the 3D stuff and it will only be in a private build due to the click through license restrictions.22:53
* rustyl checks the license22:56
mjg59libva is supposed to be open, I believe22:56
mjg59The Poulsbo parts may not be22:57
rustylyes, it's open... looks like the boilerplate MIT license22:58
rustylthe code is hosting on freedesktop (not sure of the url), but we also have it on moblin22:58
mjg59But the idea is that libva will be the standard infrastructure for video media acceleration22:58
inuka_deskping amitk..22:59
rustylthat's the COPYING file22:59
rustyldavidm, StevenK, fyi... the up stream source (unpackaged) is hosted at http://gitweb.freedesktop.org/?p=libva.git;a=tree23:00
rustylif you guys want, i can push a packaged version to the ppa, or let somebody else do the packaging.  We just happen to have it packaged from our gutsy based build on moblin23:02
rustylnot that we are adding any patches23:02
davidmOK, we will need to figure out what pieces are open and free and what is under the click license that we can't distribute23:02
rustyllibva is completely open23:02
davidmI have libva1_0.28-3_lpia.deb that I got from ARMS and it was contained within the click through license so I did not look closer at the package to see it's specific license23:05
rustyloh... didn't realize it was distributed by arms... seems kind of silly, it's up on freedesktop23:06
davidmIt was all part of the 3D package, but since you pointed this out, I'll ask Steve/Loïc to have a look to see what we can put into the base distro 23:08
davidmAnything open I'd like in the base distro, anything else is a headache that has to go a different route.23:09
GrueMasterlibva is open, but useless w/o the 3D drivers and firmware.23:22
GrueMasterFor example, helix CIP codecs will call libva, with in turn loads psb-video.  Since psb-video is closed source, helix will fail regardless of libva installed or not.23:24
rustylGrueMaster, true, but that doesn't mean that the package should be forced to live a live of restricted apt repositories23:26
GrueMasterI guess I'm just leaning more towards open source.  If you can't use it, why install it?  Thankfully, I just get to muck with the code.  Let someone higher up dictate policy.23:33

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