faulkes-nijaba: it hasn't started as of yet actually00:21
* faulkes- was in negotiations all day00:21
faulkes-I should have it going tomorrow as I have a free day, well, "mostly" free00:22
=== c_schmitz is now known as c_schmitz|away
* kgoetz discovers he has no /proc/acpi under 7.10, but this doesnt crash - therefor the problem is with 8.04 :(01:54
kgoetzafk lunch01:57
=== foo_ is now known as foo
=== freeflyi1g is now known as freeflying
rhineheart_mIs courier-imap has Poppassd service?02:44
Bambi_BOFHrhineheart_m: what?02:44
rhineheart_mBambi_BOFH: yeah.. Poppassd service...02:44
rhineheart_mBambi_BOFH: I need it for change_passwd by PAM authentication for my squirrelmail..02:44
Bambi_BOFHthat didnt clear it up02:44
Bambi_BOFHi see. i suggest searching the web for info02:45
=== Bambi_BOFH is now known as kgoetz
=== c_schmitz is now known as c_schmitz|away
kgoetzpschulz01: we forgot http://ars.userfriendly.org/cartoons/?id=2008030205:59
Gide0ncould somebody help me with a question about setting up a routing table?06:55
sergevnDoesn anyone has any experience with dhcp3-server and failover?08:10
henkjansergevn: are you going to ask the every day? ;)08:13
sergevnhenkjan: yes :)08:13
sergevnhenkjan: ;)08:13
henkjando you realy need failover?08:13
sergevnhenkjan: yes08:14
henkjani've heard only horror stories about failover08:14
sergevnhenkjan: I know how to configure it, but it aint working :D08:15
_rubensearch the dhcp users mailinglist archives .. its a rather hot topic overthere08:15
krautsergevn: yes. did that answer helped you!?08:15
henkjan2 dhcp-server witch their own scope isnt an option?08:15
krautdhcp failover is a major pain into the ass...08:15
sergevnhenkjan: if the secondary takes over, it says it holds all leases08:15
sergevnkraut: yeah im getting that picture the last 2 days08:16
soren_Hm... I've never tried it, but it sounds pretty straight forward?08:18
soren_Assuming some sort of monitoring mechanism takes care of switching them, what's left to do but copy the leases from the active to the passive node?08:19
_rubenstrange .. ps aux sorts procs by pid, tho im used to them being sorted by starttime (on suse boxes) .. guess i'll have to dive into the manpage :p08:30
_rubenps auxkstart_time .. lets see if that can be made a default somehow08:32
henkjansergevn: just configure 2 dhcp servers with both the same scope08:40
henkjansergevn: a client request an adress by broadcast. Both (or more) dhcp answer: 'pick this adress'. Client takes the adress and answers in broadcast, 'i take this adress'. Both (or more) dhcp servers update their leases file08:41
henkjanthats how we are running it08:41
soren_Yeah, I really don't see the problem. Identical configuration, sync leases info from active to passive node. When disaster strikes, start dhcp server on the passive node. Go.08:41
henkjanyou don't need to sync leases08:42
soren_henkjan: AH, yes, that's even better.08:42
soren_henkjan: I never tried. Didn't know dhcpd was clever enough to do that.08:42
=== waver_ is now known as WaVeR
sergevnhenkjan: so if you run 2 dhcp servers in the same network08:53
sergevnhenkjan: they know about each others leases by defaul?08:54
pppZerohi, eth0 isnt starting on boot (ifup eth0 starts it correctly though) where do i start looking?08:54
soren_pppZero: In /etc/network/interfaces08:55
soren_pppZero: It needs to say "auto eth0" somewhere.08:55
pppZerosoren let it be known for the record, i love you!08:56
henkjansergevn: a client will answer with an broadcast. Both dhcp server receive that broacast en place the mentioned ip the leases file08:56
sergevnhenkjan: aaaaaaaah ok08:56
henkjansergevn: thats exactly how we are running it with 4 dhcp servers08:56
* soren_ hugs pppZero 08:57
henkjanwell, did it earn an VT enabled pc with this answer?08:59
=== soren_ is now known as soren
sergevnhenkjan: problem nr2, it has to be compatible with dynamic dns08:59
pppZerosergven i've got a setup going here with dhcp + djbdns + a perl script that adds hostnames to djbdns as windows boxen take out leases, give me a minute or 10 to find the link09:00
pppZeroif you want to use bind, I've got no idea how its done, probably some changes to how it writes files should suffice, but heres the link:09:03
sergevnhenkjan: im testing it right now, 2 dhcp servers in 1 subnet, same range etc.09:05
sergevnhenkjan: but if i get lease from 1 server, shut that server down.09:06
sergevnhenkjan: do another dhcp request, im getting the same ip09:06
henkjanthats what you want, right?09:06
sergevnhenkjan: yes, but not duplicate leases09:06
henkjanhmm, how are you testing it?09:07
sergevnhenkjan: havent released the old one yet, and getting the same one (as old) from other server09:07
spiekeyMorning everybody :)09:07
henkjana proper dhcpclient will answer with a broadcast09:07
sergevnhenkjan: using dhclient09:07
henkjansergevn: thats exactly what you want. The second dhcp server knows your lease, so it gives you the same ipadress09:08
sergevnhenkjan: hmm09:09
pppZerothe dhcp server seems to give the same ip to a machine as long as it can, i've got a computer here thats been on the same IP for about 3 years, and thats though endless reboots, OS installs and power outages09:13
=== \sh_away is now known as \sh
slafkohello everyone...i need help with ssh10:12
henkjanslafko: what is your problem?10:13
slafkoi want to connect to server with ssh, but I got error "Host key verification failed"10:13
henkjanthe server seems to have a different hostkey than the key you have in .ssh/known_hosts10:13
slafkohow to fix it?10:14
slafkook, I solved the problem10:18
henkjanyou can remove the corresponding line from ~/.ssh/known_hosts10:18
henkjanah, to late :)10:18
sergevnwhat is an good application for emailing system reports12:02
sergevnno, i dont like to create manual scripts :P12:02
nijabasergevn: yep, logwatch is great, even though rules can be a pain sometimes to get right12:04
faulkes-morning nijaba12:13
nijabahello faulkes-12:14
faulkes-well, that was nice, I think I actually slept for 12 hours solid12:16
sergevnnijaba: logrotate is installed by default i see, doesnt lolrotate have the same functionality as logwatch12:17
sergevnnijaba: lolrotate = logrotate :D12:18
nijabasergevn: not IIRC.  logrotate changes the logfile and archive old one only12:18
nijabasergevn: it can mail them eventually, but with no filtering at all12:18
* faulkes- nods12:19
sergevnnijaba: ok, so i installed logwatch, i see it puts it script in cron.daily.12:20
nijabalogwatch will allow you to set regexp to be looked for in multiple log file and periodically mail you the matching lines of all watched log files in a single email12:20
sergevnnijaba: but aint i getting the same log each day now?12:20
nijabasergevn: nope, only the lines that matches your regexp will be sent12:21
nijabasergevn: look at the default config, it is a good safe start12:21
sergevnnijaba: noob Q: what is regexp12:21
faulkes-regular expressions12:21
nijabasergevn: regexp = regular expression12:21
sergevnnijaba: /etc/logwatch doesnt contain any config files :D12:22
henkjansergevn: we have a customer running logcheck on his colocated machine12:24
nijabasergevn: I realize I have been speaking of logwatch when thinking of logcheck12:29
* nijaba feels silly12:29
sergevnnijaba: so you didnt mean logwatch in the first place ? :D12:32
nijabasergevn: both seem to do similar things but with a different architecture.  yeah, I meant logcheck as it is what I am using, but logwatch should work as well12:33
henkjanlogwatch - log analyser with nice output written in Perl12:33
henkjanlogcheck - mails anomalies in the system logfiles to the administrator12:33
zulnijaba: you need more coffee12:33
henkjannijaba needs to send me an VT enabled computer :)12:33
nijabazul: right...  I'll be back after another load of caffeine12:33
nijabazul: jetlag...12:34
zulnijaba: sure sure :)12:34
faulkes-both are going to match on regexp though iirc12:35
henkjanlogcheck-database - database of system log rules for the use of log checkers12:35
henkjanlogchech has a database available12:35
henkjandon't know about logwatch12:35
faulkes-rules just get interpreted12:35
faulkes-if you look in /etc/logcheck you'll notice that the files in there are all regexp based12:37
nijabahenkjan: I personally don't have any to send, but if you plan on doing something usefull with a vt machine for the community, let's talk about it12:37
henkjannijaba: it was just joke, hence the smiley. But with an VT enable pc i could test a lot more on virtualisation12:39
henkjancurrently running on 1Ghz PIII :)12:39
nijabahenkjan: I understood it as such.  And I think we do need some tester on PIII machines as well, just to make sure the devs don't get too sloppy ;)12:41
henkjanbut KVM will only run with VT support right?12:42
nijabahenkjan: yep, we had to remove the full qemu emul because of it depending on a old gcc 3.4 version, IIRC12:43
henkjanah, to bad for me :)12:43
henkjanbut i'm happy with Xen12:43
sommermorning all13:41
=== cjwatson_ is now known as cjwatson
faulkes-morning sommer13:48
zulhi sommer13:49
mohamed_hello all, how to know the running service on ubuntu server and how can i stop any of them ?14:14
henkjanstart/stop with /etc/init.d/<service start|stop14:15
mohamed_thx henkjan , i mean how to stop any permenant14:15
mohamed_that next time don't start14:16
henkjanremove the symlink in /etc/rc3.d/S<number><servicename>14:16
zulor you can use update-rc.d14:17
henkjanah, didnt know about that one14:17
Apollo9When installing Ubuntu server, how can I disable automatic network configuration and enter a custom IP instead?14:18
henkjanApollo9: edit /etc/network/interfaces14:18
henkjanman interfaces will give you enough information about what needs to be in that file14:19
nijabaApollo9: you can also press esc during install when the dhcp config is taking place14:20
nijabait will ask you what IP you want14:20
henkjanah, during install time its easier indeed14:20
mohamed_but in case if he connect to dhcp server then network will configured auto the first time, in this case maybe he disconnect network cable while install14:21
Apollo9Thank you all :)14:23
Apollo9Btw, how large should the swap area be on a relatively old PC (I'm installing it as a test server to toy around a bit)? Should it be large (like 700MB) to compensate for lacking RAM?14:30
WaVeRmohamed_, you can cancel the dhcp configuration (just press cancel when trying to get IP from dhcp)14:33
mohamed_thx, WaVeR , for this info14:34
henkjanApollo9: how much ram do you have?14:34
henkjanram is cheap nowadays, you should avoid swapping14:35
faulkes-avoid? yes? always possible? no14:35
* faulkes- whistles innocently about jvm app servers14:35
Apollo9henkjan: 128 MB, but only 800 MHz14:36
henkjan 4626 tomcat5   15   0 4874m 1.5g  59m S  2.7 39.0 116:35.54 java14:36
henkjanApollo9: 512M swap should be enough14:37
faulkes-if you only have 128mb, I would have at least 512mb of swap14:37
Apollo9OK, thanks.14:37
mohamed_is there a command to know the running services ?14:38
faulkes-the ps command14:39
henkjanbut using that much swap makes your server unusable14:39
faulkes-although that will list all processes14:39
faulkes-see the ps man page14:39
faulkes-it all depends on what you plan to do with the server as a test14:40
faulkes-if it's just a LAMP stack, you should be fine14:40
faulkes-if it's a jvm app server test, you'll be in trouble14:40
faulkes-if it's just general learning and testing, you'll be fine14:41
sommerthey mostly comem out at night... mostly14:42
Apollo9henkjan: I'm pretty new to Linux. Can you please explain why using more swap makes it unusable?14:42
henkjanApollo9: swap is slow14:43
mohamed_if one use more ram , this mean that can't crate swap partation ?14:44
mohamed_crate = create14:45
faulkes-you can always create a swap partition14:50
faulkes-the point I believe henkjan is trying to make is that swap is much slower than actual ram14:51
faulkes-because it is disk based14:51
mohamed_e.g if i have 2 G ram in this case i can avoid swap ?14:51
faulkes-all depends on what you are doing with the server14:52
faulkes-I have yet to encounter any server that has not had a swap partition14:52
faulkes-even if you feel you will never run out of ram, best practices dictate that murphy's law will apply ;)14:53
faulkes-the short and sweet of it, create a swap partition just to be safe, even if it is never used14:54
faulkes-and swap partition sizing all depends on how much ram you have and what you expect the server to do, so its a variable amount (IMO)14:54
faulkes-if the server had 2gb of ram, I would personally give it 1gb of swap14:54
mohamed_this is good then one safe in this case14:55
faulkes-safety is good ;)14:55
mohamed_of course14:56
faulkes-you can't anticipate what or how much memory a given application will consume or if it has memory leaks14:56
kirklandfaulkes-, mohamed_: there's a couple of different theories as to how much swap is the right amount14:56
kirklandwhen I have lots of hard disk, I give 2x RAM size to swap, which handles the theoretic worst case scenario of having to swap ALL of RAM out14:57
faulkes-and disk is cheap14:58
kirklandfaulkes-: yep, most of the time14:58
mohamed_kirkland, but if the system ram is enough and swap also exist system will not use swap till ram resources not enough ?14:58
kirklandfaulkes-: I do have a mythtv machine that only has a 2GB SD card for a disk, and there, I have no swap at all14:58
kirklandmohamed_: right14:58
faulkes-it is very dependent, my opinion, on what the server is expected to do14:59
kirklandabsolutely, I agree with that14:59
kirklandlately, I've been using swapfiles instead of swap partitions14:59
rhineheart_mhello...Is there a way to upgrade squirrelmail using terminal?14:59
kirklandallows me to allocate more and reclaim my swap space far more easily14:59
faulkes-kirkland: yes although thats a more advanced technique, for a new user15:00
kirklandhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paging recommends 1.5x RAM size, fwiw15:00
Apollo9lol, after installation: /dev/hda1 has gone 49710 days without being checked, check forced.15:03
faulkes-that's typical15:07
rhineheart_mhow to add users to imap without adding them into the system users?15:25
\shdoes anybody work on grinder, e.g. for inclusion in ibex?15:58
ubotuSorry, I don't know anything about grinder - try searching on http://ubotu.ubuntu-nl.org/factoids.cgi16:00
\shhenkjan: http://grinder.sourceforge.net/16:03
henkjanah, i see16:03
=== \sh is now known as \sh_away
faulkes-question: once I create a project in LP, how do I create/add the trunk? after following it's directions I keep getting "not a branch" error from bzr17:41
ScottKfaulkes-: --> #launchpad17:44
mathiazfaulkes-: did you push your branch to LP ?17:44
mathiazfaulkes-: I think you first need to push your branch and then you can set the trunk serie in the project.17:45
zyx386hi all17:47
faulkes-mathiaz: it's a bit confusing as to how they want it done17:48
zyx386what is ubuntu recomended server hosting(Virual Server)?17:48
faulkes-scottk: thanks, I'll ask there17:48
zulzyx386: kvm17:48
zyx386i will bay Virtual Server17:48
zyx386zul, can give the company link,17:49
zulzyx386: sorry its not a company i gave you the wrong info misfired17:50
zyx386ok thanks, i choose company with virual server, but ubuntu basis?17:51
zyx386for example www.server4you.com17:51
zyx386can everyone tell me :)17:54
engidadoes a regular server install come with a GUI (DE and x-server)?18:29
engidaif not, what is a lightweight window manager to install and what package/s? (Fluxbox?)18:30
sommerengida: you can find details here: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/ServerGUI18:34
engidasommer: Thanks18:34
mathiazsommer: is there a factoid for the server gui ?18:35
sommermathiaz: not that I know of18:38
sommerbut that would make a good one... wouldn't have to lookup the site :-)18:38
ubotuSorry, I don't know anything about servergui - try searching on http://ubotu.ubuntu-nl.org/factoids.cgi18:48
=== \sh_away is now known as \sh
faulkes-hrmm, 30 min until meeting?20:31
kirklandzyx386: personally, I use a2hosting.com.  They do have Ubuntu VPS options: http://www.a2hosting.com/vps_hosting.php20:31
sommerhey all, is the statement regarding apt-get dist-upgrade correct: http://doc.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/serverguide/C/apt-get.html20:43
sommerwith regards to upgrading packages?20:44
sommerwait never mind I'm just reading the lead in wrong I think20:44
mathiazsommer: the statement about upgrading from one release to another should be removed20:50
mathiazsommer: do-release-upgrade should be used instead of dist-upgrade20:50
sommermathiaz: ya, I removed the second few paragraphs... as was reading the first one, and it started to not make sense :-)20:51
sommermathiaz: it's replaced with a link to the upgrading section under installation20:51
ScottKIt's true that's the supported way, but I've never had a problem with apt-get dist-upgrade on servers.20:51
mathiazsommer: dist-upgrading from dapper to hardy won't work as dapper's dpkg doesn't understant the new Breaks: field available in hardy20:51
sommermathiaz: yep, we should be covered20:52
zulanyone seen ivoks recenlty?21:03
sommerzul: today he replied to an email a sent him last week, he's been sick for the last 10 days21:03
zulah ok thats unfortunate21:03
sommerya, sounded pretty bad21:04
ScottKmathiaz: Since you uploaded cyrus-sasl2, cyrus-sasl2-heimdal needs to be updated too or it's broken.21:27
engidajust did a 6.06 server install and am wanting to add 2 new users to the admin group. I have looked at adduser and useradd, was wondering if there was a command to list current users/grous21:42
sommerengida: cat /etc/group and cat /etc/passwd will accomplisth that :-)21:43
faulkes-cat /etc/group | grep <username>21:44
engidawhich command is better to just create a normal user that belongs to an admin group (or a sudoer), useradd or adduser?21:44
sommerengida: I think adduser is pretty simple: adduser username groupname21:45
sommerbut really whatever works for you is the "correct" way21:45
engidabut I don't want the new user to have a home directory... just a shell and being able to sudo...21:45
sommerengida: for that you'll want to check the options for useradd, then you can always go back and run adduser21:47
sommerat least that's what I'd do21:47
=== Apollo9 is now known as g00f
mathiazScottK: I haven't uploaded cyrus-sasl2 yet21:57
mathiazScottK: kirkland and I still have to complete the merge IIRC21:57
mathiazScottK: someone else uploaded it ?21:57
ScottKNo.  slangasek uploaded another Ubuntu revision.21:58
ScottKSo you'll need to update your merge, but the -18 merge isn't done21:58
ScottKWhen you do, please include an update of cyrus-sasl2-heimdal (in Universe) so it won't be broken.21:59
engidasommer: Is it possible for the new user to belong to the admin group and still have its own password to be identified by?21:59
engidaI envoked the -p argument in useradd and was not promted for a password when creating a new user22:00
sommerengida: sure, you just need to set it using passwd22:00
sommerengida: I think the -p argument expects the password to be part of the command22:01
sommeror standard input22:01
engidahmm.. so a <sudo passwd username "newpass"> should do the trick?22:01
sommerengida: should22:02
engidaThnks :)22:02
=== \sh is now known as \sh_away
mathiazScottK: ok22:02
ScottKmathiaz: Thanks.22:02
kirklandmathiaz: do you want to set aside some time this week to finish that cyrus-sasl import?22:05
=== g00f is now known as go0f
kirklandmathiaz: or, if you want to just do that one yourself, that's okay by me--it looked more complicated than a run-of-the-mill import22:06
ScottKIt can't be uploaded until after the alpha 6 freeze is over, so you have some time.22:08
mathiazkirkland: I think it's good example of a merge.22:08
mathiazkirkland: even though it includes more work, you get a good intro to the merge process.22:09
mathiazkirkland: we could actually upload it as it is, but we've started to clean up the packaging a little bit.22:09
mathiazkirkland: so I think we should keep working on it - get the merge ready and once the archive is opened, I'll upload it.22:10
keescooksoren, zul: can you look this over, and let me know which of xen-3.[012], qemu, kvm need updated?  https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=43356022:16
ubotuRed Hat bug 433560 in vulnerability "CVE-2008-0928 Qemu insufficient block device address range checking" [Medium,New: ]22:16
sorenkeescook: All of them, probably.22:17
keescooksoren: that's what I suspected.  :P22:17
=== go0f is now known as Apollo9
=== Apollo9 is now known as Go0f
sorenkeescook: Don't use Ian's patch, but I assume you noticed that?22:19
keescooksoren: yea, saw comment 22 there.22:20
sorenkeescook: Right. I'll grab it for hardy kvm.22:20
keescookI'm hoping to get a "blessed" patch from either upstream or you/zul :)22:20
sorenkeescook: Er.. How high priority is this? Can you wait until tomorrow. I want to talk to Dan.22:24
=== Go0f is now known as Apollo9
keescooksoren: it's "fix soon" in my book, but needs to be "fix right" due to the invasiveness of the patch, so I'm happy to get additional confirmation.22:29
sorenkeescook: There's one of the cases that looks wrong in his updated patch, and I just want to check with him which one of us is on crack :)22:30
sorenkeescook: None of this is in main, is it?22:30
sorenkeescook: Apart from kvm in hardy, that is..22:30
keescooksoren: xen?22:41
sorenkeescook: In main? Really?22:41
* keescook remains unclear22:41
sorenlibxen, perhaps, but not xen.22:41
sorenI hope.22:41
zullibxen is not affected but xen-utils is affected22:59
sorenzul: xen-utils? Hm. Interesting.23:14
rhineheart_mhello! How to configure http://www.example.com/tick to be accessible thru http://www.tickl.example.com?23:17
kirklandrhineheart_m: in your sites-enabled apache conf file:23:19
kirkland<VirtualHost *:80>23:19
kirkland        ServerName www.tickl.example.com23:19
kirkland        DocumentRoot /var/www/html/tick23:19
rhineheart_mkirkland: thanks for that. How about hosting multiple sites with each domain?23:21
kirklandrhineheart_m: you can put as many of those <VirtualHost> sections as you want in there23:22
rhineheart_myou mean? all I have to do is to confgure external nameserver like www.tickl.example.com to point to my IP?23:24
kirklandrhineheart_m: yes23:26
ScottKlamont: I'm reading this http://ressukka.net/blog/posts/20070909_postfix_defaults/ and thinking default subdomain matching for relay'ed domains is probably not the best plan.23:26
rhineheart_mkirkland: where can I find the sites-enabled apache conf?23:28
kirklandrhineheart_m: /etc/apache2/sites-enabled/*23:29
rhineheart_mkirkland: I have only two available files there.. 000-default and squirrelmail23:31
kirklandrhineheart_m: you want 000-default then23:32
mathiazrhineheart_m: you'd better create one file in /etc/apache2/site-available/ for each virtual hosts23:32
kirklandrhineheart_m: and then symlink them into sites-enabled/23:33
rhineheart_mmathiaz: what do you mean with that?23:33
mathiazrhineheart_m: and then use the command a2ensite to enable the sites23:33
mathiazrhineheart_m: the code that kirkland posted above - put in a file in /etc/apache2/site-available/23:34
mathiazkirkland: right - I think it's just the standard way to do it.23:34
mathiazkirkland: but you should edit your files in /etc/apache2/site-available/23:34
mathiazkirkland: site-enabled is just a directory with symlinks.23:35
kirklandmathiaz: ;-)23:35
kirklandmathiaz: agreed.23:35
rhineheart_mthe two of you! great job! how to create symlinks by the way?23:35
lamontScottK: reading23:35
mathiazrhineheart_m: use a2ensite23:35
mathiazrhineheart_m: there is a manual page for a2ensite that explains what it does23:36
mathiazrhineheart_m: you don't need to know about symlinks.23:36
ScottKActually I'm not sure I like default subdomain matching at all.23:36
rhineheart_mScottK: You made me thinking deep? Please say something..23:37
ScottKrhineheart_m: I'm talking to lamont about a postfix thing.23:37
ScottKSorry it sounded like your topic.23:38
* ScottK knows very little about web servers and tends to ignore talk about them.23:38
rhineheart_mNP. Thanks for letting me know..23:38
lamontScottK: yeah.  it's a ponder thing, for sure.23:38
lamontScottK: and nfc how the 2.4.5 backport built, either.23:39
ScottKlamont: Accepting mail for some domain I don't explicitly list seems so Postfix 1.023:39
lamontand yet my mail server _wants_ that behavior (iz many hosts it takes mail for)23:40
ScottKlamont: I'm pretty sure the whole Main/Universe thing is supposed to be ignored for backports.  It's really a non-sequitor.23:40
lamontah, that could be it23:41
ScottKAnd jdong told me that he thought that got fixed a year ago.  I think someone 'improved' the system.23:41
lamontyeah - quite possible that a recent rollout regressed it... you should file a bug against launchpad23:41
ScottKlamont: I have a strict policy against filing or looking at bugs against launchpad.  It just hurts my blood pressure. I'm heckling jdong into doing it.23:42
lamontScottK: fish in a barrel.23:43
ScottKIt's just such a freaking amateur hour project combined with extreme hubris that it drives me nuts.23:44
rhineheart_mmathiaz, kirkland: got an idea how to enable https in squirrelmail?23:45
ScottKMy favorite recent example was being told I'd have to give up my opinion that the pre-beta U/I was better if I wanted my complaints to be taken seriously.23:45
ScottKSo I've given up on making complaints.23:46
mathiazrhineheart_m: https://help.ubuntu.com/community/forum/server/apache2/SSL23:47
lamontScottK: generally, I find that it's getting better, and that it does what I need.23:53
ScottKlamont: There are things that are getting better.  I find that as the system is growing more complex the U/I is getting more confusing and it's getting harder to find stuff.23:54
ScottKThe amateurish part is I think they put way to much into implementation and not enough into design and testing.23:54
ScottKIn the most recent release they made a change to have PPA uploads start building immediately before publisher runs.23:55
ScottKWhat they failed to notice in design, implementation, or testing is that before publisher runs on an empty ppa there is no releases file.23:55
ScottKSoyuz will barf when it tries to upload the binaries.23:55
ScottKPretty basic thing I'd say.23:56
ScottKIt's currently marked low and the only developer comment I saw was something along the lines of ooh - let's call this the builds to fast bug.23:56
ScottKI just barely restrained myself from a really sarcastic comment and that was the last LP bug I looked at.23:57

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