| emgent | @schedule | 00:57 |
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| ubotu | Schedule for Etc/UTC: 12 Mar 21:00: Server Team | 19 Mar 21:00: Server Team | 26 Mar 21:00: Server Team | 00:57 |
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| === ubotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 12 Mar 21:00 UTC: Server Team | 14 Mar 20:00 UTC: MOTU | 14 Mar 21:00 UTC: REVU Coordination | 19 Mar 21:00 UTC: Server Team | 26 Mar 21:00 UTC: Server Team | ||
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| Keybuk | mdz: ping? | 20:00 |
| mdz | Keybuk: I am on a conference call | 20:01 |
| mdz | Keybuk: and I doubt we can expect sabdfl | 20:01 |
| Keybuk | the one item to discuss today is your own, Tracker :-) | 20:02 |
| mdz | Keybuk: there is another, actually, which is also mine | 20:02 |
| Keybuk | I do not see that one? | 20:02 |
| Keybuk | well, let me introduce the first item and see if anybody would like to discuss it | 20:03 |
| Keybuk | Tracker consumes a lot of resource, it makes the system slow and unresponsive, and isn't yet useful enough to counter that | 20:04 |
| Keybuk | the new version makes some improvement, but it's a small step across a large chasm | 20:04 |
| Keybuk | the suggestion is to disable tracker by default for 8.04 | 20:05 |
| Keybuk | and assumedly remove the deskbar-applet by default too | 20:05 |
| Keybuk | seb128: thoughts? | 20:05 |
| Keybuk | ... | 20:08 |
| seb128 | Keybuk: though one, I don't use tracker a lot but I can't say how much that's true for our userbase | 20:09 |
| seb128 | I would like to get user feedback on whether the new version makes things better (it's supposed to pause when user use the keyboard or mouse) | 20:09 |
| seb128 | and maybe that's worth to change the default settings from faster indexing to low ressources use | 20:10 |
| pochu | I've just got a mail from bug 144434 with good feedback wrt 0.6.6. Don't know whether that's a general case or not though | 20:11 |
| ubotu | Launchpad bug 144434 in tracker "ignored paths and file patterns should not only be ignored while indexing but also when searching" [Wishlist,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/144434 | 20:11 |
| Keybuk | I don't really have any opinion there | 20:12 |
| Keybuk | and this is going to be difficult without mdz | 20:12 |
| mdz | I'm sorry | 20:12 |
| mdz | I'm almost finished here | 20:12 |
| seb128 | do we have some way to do user pools to know how many of them find tracker useful for example? | 20:13 |
| pochu | there's ubuntuforums' polls... | 20:15 |
| mc44 | you could let people vote on brainstorm.ubuntu :) | 20:16 |
| mdz | Keybuk: I'm finished now | 20:16 |
| mdz | I have pretty bad experiences with tracker | 20:17 |
| stgraber | http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/46/ http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/278/ http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/3512/ | 20:17 |
| mdz | on my desktop, it seems to reindex continuously even when I don't do anything | 20:17 |
| seb128 | mdz: did you open bugs about that? how responsive upstream has been? | 20:17 |
| mdz | seb128: I have talked with jaimemcc and Keybuk about the various issues I have had | 20:18 |
| mdz | jaimemcc has been very responsive | 20:18 |
| seb128 | you still have those using 0.6.6? | 20:18 |
| mdz | he usually says that the next version will fix everything :-) | 20:18 |
| seb128 | right | 20:18 |
| mdz | I also see crashes from tracker-extract | 20:19 |
| mdz | and the programs it calls | 20:19 |
| mdz | like imagemagick | 20:19 |
| pochu | 0.6.6 is supposed not to index when you move the mouse or type in the keyboard, isn't that working? | 20:19 |
| Keybuk | I had a fun one where imagemagick crashed and left a gif file in my home directory | 20:20 |
| Keybuk | which tracker promptly attempted to index, spawned imagemagick, that crashed, and updated that gif file | 20:20 |
| Keybuk | ad infinitum | 20:20 |
| mdz | it also seems to read very large binary files in my home directory | 20:20 |
| mdz | which aren't useful to index | 20:20 |
| Keybuk | pochu: hard to tell; I know that today, with latest updates, reboot, etc. | 20:20 |
| mdz | e.g. backing up a DVD causes it to scan all 7+ GB of data, even though there aren't any keywords in it | 20:20 |
| seb128 | Keybuk: I think that's supposed to be fixed in the new version | 20:20 |
| Keybuk | my laptop is subjectively much slower and laggy with tracker running than without | 20:21 |
| seb128 | my gut feeling was that tracker is not that useful | 20:21 |
| Keybuk | tracker could be incredibly useful | 20:21 |
| mdz | I think it's only useful to people who discover it and want to use it | 20:21 |
| Keybuk | or at least, a metadata index of the filesystem | 20:21 |
| seb128 | but I changed nautilus to build without it one week ago and I got some user complains on the bug | 20:21 |
| Keybuk | but I think that the current implementation is just too damned heavy | 20:21 |
| mdz | which is fine, except that everyone pays a cost for it even if they don't use it | 20:21 |
| mdz | one suggestion would be to enable indexing the first time the user tries to search | 20:22 |
| mdz | isn't that what windows does? | 20:22 |
| Keybuk | mdz: I think you have to explicitly turn on search in Windows | 20:22 |
| seb128 | no idea what windows does, I didn't know it was doing indexing | 20:22 |
| jcastro | in vista the indexer is on ootb | 20:22 |
| pochu | the tracker-extract crashes are due setrlimit, which sends signals to the process which dump the core and thus apport will pop up | 20:22 |
| pochu | I've added a hook so that tracker tells you the reason and they aren't reported. That's not ideal though | 20:23 |
| mdz | how about we enumerate some options | 20:24 |
| mdz | - disable indexing by default | 20:25 |
| mdz | - don't install tracker by default | 20:25 |
| mdz | - leave things as they are | 20:25 |
| Keybuk | what's the difference between disabling indexing and watching? | 20:26 |
| pochu | watching will keep indexing after the initial index IIRC | 20:26 |
| Keybuk | indexing can be off but watching on | 20:26 |
| mdz | I think indexing means index on login or similar | 20:26 |
| Keybuk | does that mean anything, or is it just a missing set_sensitive(FALSE) ? | 20:26 |
| mdz | and watching is incremental (inotify) | 20:26 |
| mdz | but I haven't read the code and am guessing | 20:27 |
| seb128 | Keybuk: what does watching without indexing do? | 20:27 |
| mdz | seb128: I think that's what he's asking | 20:27 |
| Keybuk | seb128: with Watching but not Indexing, the last thing trackerd says is "starting indexing" | 20:28 |
| Keybuk | but admittedly doesn't seem to do much else | 20:29 |
| mdz | I just tried disabling indexing (which caused trackerd to be restarted and the status icon to disappear) and re-enabling it (which didn't cause the icon to reappear) | 20:29 |
| mdz | I think tracker is progressing very well, but just isn't on track to be ready for 8.04 | 20:30 |
| mdz | it will take some time to get there | 20:30 |
| pochu | EnableIndexing=BOOLEAN | 20:31 |
| pochu | Enable or disable the indexer. | 20:31 |
| Keybuk | disabling indexing seems the right course to me, then it's trivial to turn back on if users want it | 20:31 |
| pochu | EnableWatching=BOOLEAN | 20:31 |
| pochu | Enables or disables watching of directories, i.e. re-index files when | 20:31 |
| pochu | they change. | 20:31 |
| Keybuk | and it might even be easy to enable it on search | 20:31 |
| pochu | hopefully that makes things clearer :) | 20:31 |
| pochu | (that's from tracker.cfg(5) btw) | 20:32 |
| mdz | Keybuk: sabdfl inbound | 20:32 |
| seb128 | ok, so let's keep tracker installed but don't use it by default? | 20:32 |
| sabdfl | 'allo 'allo, all | 20:32 |
| mdz | seb128: if indexing is disabled and the user tries to do a search, will it let them easily enable it? | 20:32 |
| mdz | sabdfl: topic is tracker for 8.04, go/no-go | 20:32 |
| sabdfl | is that the only matter at hand? nothing on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TechnicalBoardAgenda | 20:33 |
| seb128 | hey sabdfl | 20:34 |
| mdz | sabdfl: when we're done with that, it's time to talk about sparc | 20:34 |
| sabdfl | mdz, could you paste me the conversation to date, or mail it? | 20:34 |
| mdz | sabdfl: will mail | 20:34 |
| sabdfl | thanks | 20:34 |
| mdz | sabdfl: done | 20:34 |
| seb128 | mdz: I think it's autoactivated for the session using dbus activation but that's not a setting change, so it'll not be available after next login, should be easy to change if we want to though | 20:35 |
| mdz | seb128: that seems like the best compromise | 20:35 |
| mdz | we want to make it available to people who use it, but without intruding on users who don't know it exists | 20:35 |
| seb128 | how do we expect users to use it though? | 20:35 |
| seb128 | using the tracker interface from the menu? | 20:35 |
| seb128 | or do we still want to list the deskbar applet choice? | 20:36 |
| mdz | seb128: the deskbar item is pretty unintrusive | 20:36 |
| mdz | it's just one in a long list of search shortcuts | 20:36 |
| mdz | (I wish it were more prominent, in fact) | 20:36 |
| seb128 | well, the issue is still that user might just try it without knowing what they do and enable tracker | 20:36 |
| seb128 | is that alright, or do we want to prevent that too? | 20:37 |
| sabdfl | is the deskbar applet useful without tracker? | 20:37 |
| seb128 | sabdfl: I was wondering if it's really useful too, I don't use it personally | 20:37 |
| seb128 | it's impact a bit on login speed but isn't too much of a nuisance otherwise | 20:38 |
| mdz | sabdfl: it does web searches etc. | 20:38 |
| seb128 | and there is quite some user enjoy it apparently | 20:38 |
| seb128 | enjoying | 20:38 |
| sabdfl | i like the meme of web-search-without-web, but i don't know if we can yet do that justice | 20:38 |
| sabdfl | what is the UI like to "turn on indexing of your files" if we disable it by default? | 20:39 |
| Keybuk | System -> Prefs -> Search and Indexing -> Enable | 20:40 |
| seb128 | we have a system, preferences, tracker menu item | 20:40 |
| seb128 | what Keybuk wrote ;-) | 20:40 |
| sabdfl | ok, then i'm +1 disabling tracker by default, and +1 leaving deskbar in place for the moment | 20:42 |
| Keybuk | aol | 20:43 |
| seb128 | I'm not a firefox user but the deskbar applet changes mentioned it not being compatible with firefox 3, did anybody try using it on hardy? | 20:44 |
| seb128 | it impacts on login speed and I'm not sure how useful it is without firefox bookmarks, etc integration | 20:45 |
| Keybuk | I'm +1 for disabling indexing by default | 20:45 |
| Keybuk | and happy to leave deskbar-applet to seb's discretion | 20:45 |
| mdz | I agree | 20:45 |
| seb128 | does anybody know if we got good press feedback in gutsy for using deskbar? | 20:46 |
| mdz | I didn't read much which highlighted it | 20:46 |
| mdz | but the functionality will still be there and easy to enable | 20:46 |
| seb128 | if it doesn't work with firefox I would disable it | 20:46 |
| seb128 | one of the top complain I read about gutsy was the login speed | 20:46 |
| seb128 | and I'm trying to reduce this one | 20:46 |
| mdz | seb128: do you think upstream will understand why we felt this was necessary, and that we want to continue to support and work with them? | 20:46 |
| seb128 | speaking about tracker or deskbar? | 20:47 |
| seb128 | I don't think it'll be an issue in either case anyway | 20:47 |
| seb128 | I don't think deskbar is enabled on other distros and it's not upstream and they don't expect it especially | 20:47 |
| seb128 | and I don't think that we will have issues with tracker upstreams if we don't let it run by default, they might be a bit disappointed but it'll still be installed and it's true that it lacks desktop integration they can probably understand the issue | 20:50 |
| sabdfl | we are certainly helping them progress towards ubiquity | 20:50 |
| Keybuk | ok, I think we have a consensus here | 20:51 |
| Keybuk | mdz: next topic? | 20:51 |
| mdz | the sparc port | 20:52 |
| Keybuk | continue... | 20:53 |
| mdz | so, the sparc port to date has been maintained by Canonical as a commercial project | 20:53 |
| mdz | which will not extend to 8.04 LTS | 20:53 |
| mdz | as such, I propose that it transition to an unofficial port, a la powerpc | 20:55 |
| sabdfl | +1 | 20:55 |
| Keybuk | +1 | 20:56 |
| mdz | +1 | 20:56 |
| mdz | any questions? | 20:56 |
| mdz | any other business? | 20:57 |
| seb128 | mdz: will somebody mails the lists about those decisions? | 20:57 |
| mdz | seb128: I will | 20:57 |
| seb128 | ok, thanks, no other question ;-) | 20:57 |
| mdz | ok, then, thanks all | 20:58 |
| mdz | it has been a long day :-) | 20:58 |
| sabdfl | thanks all | 21:00 |
| DPic | Hello | 23:00 |
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