[00:57] @schedule [00:57] Schedule for Etc/UTC: 12 Mar 21:00: Server Team | 19 Mar 21:00: Server Team | 26 Mar 21:00: Server Team === Varka_ is now known as Varka === bmk789_ is now known as bmk789_sleep === lamont` is now known as lamont__ === lamont` is now known as lamont === czessi_ is now known as Czessi === doko_ is now known as doko === \sh_away is now known as \sh === \sh is now known as \sh_away === mrevell is now known as mrevell-lunch === mrevell-lunch is now known as mrevell === \sh_away is now known as \sh === \sh is now known as \sh_away === \sh_away is now known as \sh === lamont` is now known as lamont === cjwatson_ is now known as cjwatson === \sh is now known as \sh_away === \sh_away is now known as \sh === dholbach_ is now known as dholbach === \sh is now known as \sh_away === _czessi is now known as Czessi === \sh_away is now known as \sh === \sh is now known as \sh_away === \sh_away is now known as \sh === \sh is now known as \sh_away === \sh_away is now known as \sh === \sh is now known as \sh_away === lamont is now known as lamont` === ubotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 12 Mar 21:00 UTC: Server Team | 14 Mar 20:00 UTC: MOTU | 14 Mar 21:00 UTC: REVU Coordination | 19 Mar 21:00 UTC: Server Team | 26 Mar 21:00 UTC: Server Team === asac_ is now known as asac === pochu is now known as todos === todos is now known as pochu [20:00] mdz: ping? [20:01] Keybuk: I am on a conference call [20:01] Keybuk: and I doubt we can expect sabdfl [20:02] the one item to discuss today is your own, Tracker :-) [20:02] Keybuk: there is another, actually, which is also mine [20:02] I do not see that one? [20:03] well, let me introduce the first item and see if anybody would like to discuss it [20:04] Tracker consumes a lot of resource, it makes the system slow and unresponsive, and isn't yet useful enough to counter that [20:04] the new version makes some improvement, but it's a small step across a large chasm [20:05] the suggestion is to disable tracker by default for 8.04 [20:05] and assumedly remove the deskbar-applet by default too [20:05] seb128: thoughts? [20:08] ... [20:09] Keybuk: though one, I don't use tracker a lot but I can't say how much that's true for our userbase [20:09] I would like to get user feedback on whether the new version makes things better (it's supposed to pause when user use the keyboard or mouse) [20:10] and maybe that's worth to change the default settings from faster indexing to low ressources use [20:11] I've just got a mail from bug 144434 with good feedback wrt 0.6.6. Don't know whether that's a general case or not though [20:11] Launchpad bug 144434 in tracker "ignored paths and file patterns should not only be ignored while indexing but also when searching" [Wishlist,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/144434 [20:12] I don't really have any opinion there [20:12] and this is going to be difficult without mdz [20:12] I'm sorry [20:12] I'm almost finished here [20:13] do we have some way to do user pools to know how many of them find tracker useful for example? [20:15] there's ubuntuforums' polls... [20:16] you could let people vote on brainstorm.ubuntu :) [20:16] Keybuk: I'm finished now [20:17] I have pretty bad experiences with tracker [20:17] http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/46/ http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/278/ http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/3512/ [20:17] on my desktop, it seems to reindex continuously even when I don't do anything [20:17] mdz: did you open bugs about that? how responsive upstream has been? [20:18] seb128: I have talked with jaimemcc and Keybuk about the various issues I have had [20:18] jaimemcc has been very responsive [20:18] you still have those using 0.6.6? [20:18] he usually says that the next version will fix everything :-) [20:18] right [20:19] I also see crashes from tracker-extract [20:19] and the programs it calls [20:19] like imagemagick [20:19] 0.6.6 is supposed not to index when you move the mouse or type in the keyboard, isn't that working? [20:20] I had a fun one where imagemagick crashed and left a gif file in my home directory [20:20] which tracker promptly attempted to index, spawned imagemagick, that crashed, and updated that gif file [20:20] ad infinitum [20:20] it also seems to read very large binary files in my home directory [20:20] which aren't useful to index [20:20] pochu: hard to tell; I know that today, with latest updates, reboot, etc. [20:20] e.g. backing up a DVD causes it to scan all 7+ GB of data, even though there aren't any keywords in it [20:20] Keybuk: I think that's supposed to be fixed in the new version [20:21] my laptop is subjectively much slower and laggy with tracker running than without [20:21] my gut feeling was that tracker is not that useful [20:21] tracker could be incredibly useful [20:21] I think it's only useful to people who discover it and want to use it [20:21] or at least, a metadata index of the filesystem [20:21] but I changed nautilus to build without it one week ago and I got some user complains on the bug [20:21] but I think that the current implementation is just too damned heavy [20:21] which is fine, except that everyone pays a cost for it even if they don't use it [20:22] one suggestion would be to enable indexing the first time the user tries to search [20:22] isn't that what windows does? [20:22] mdz: I think you have to explicitly turn on search in Windows [20:22] no idea what windows does, I didn't know it was doing indexing [20:22] in vista the indexer is on ootb [20:22] the tracker-extract crashes are due setrlimit, which sends signals to the process which dump the core and thus apport will pop up [20:23] I've added a hook so that tracker tells you the reason and they aren't reported. That's not ideal though [20:24] how about we enumerate some options [20:25] - disable indexing by default [20:25] - don't install tracker by default [20:25] - leave things as they are [20:26] what's the difference between disabling indexing and watching? [20:26] watching will keep indexing after the initial index IIRC [20:26] indexing can be off but watching on [20:26] I think indexing means index on login or similar [20:26] does that mean anything, or is it just a missing set_sensitive(FALSE) ? [20:26] and watching is incremental (inotify) [20:27] but I haven't read the code and am guessing [20:27] Keybuk: what does watching without indexing do? [20:27] seb128: I think that's what he's asking [20:28] seb128: with Watching but not Indexing, the last thing trackerd says is "starting indexing" [20:29] but admittedly doesn't seem to do much else [20:29] I just tried disabling indexing (which caused trackerd to be restarted and the status icon to disappear) and re-enabling it (which didn't cause the icon to reappear) [20:30] I think tracker is progressing very well, but just isn't on track to be ready for 8.04 [20:30] it will take some time to get there [20:31] EnableIndexing=BOOLEAN [20:31] Enable or disable the indexer. [20:31] disabling indexing seems the right course to me, then it's trivial to turn back on if users want it [20:31] EnableWatching=BOOLEAN [20:31] Enables or disables watching of directories, i.e. re-index files when [20:31] they change. [20:31] and it might even be easy to enable it on search [20:31] hopefully that makes things clearer :) [20:32] (that's from tracker.cfg(5) btw) [20:32] Keybuk: sabdfl inbound [20:32] ok, so let's keep tracker installed but don't use it by default? [20:32] 'allo 'allo, all [20:32] seb128: if indexing is disabled and the user tries to do a search, will it let them easily enable it? [20:32] sabdfl: topic is tracker for 8.04, go/no-go [20:33] is that the only matter at hand? nothing on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TechnicalBoardAgenda [20:34] hey sabdfl [20:34] sabdfl: when we're done with that, it's time to talk about sparc [20:34] mdz, could you paste me the conversation to date, or mail it? [20:34] sabdfl: will mail [20:34] thanks [20:34] sabdfl: done [20:35] mdz: I think it's autoactivated for the session using dbus activation but that's not a setting change, so it'll not be available after next login, should be easy to change if we want to though [20:35] seb128: that seems like the best compromise [20:35] we want to make it available to people who use it, but without intruding on users who don't know it exists [20:35] how do we expect users to use it though? [20:35] using the tracker interface from the menu? [20:36] or do we still want to list the deskbar applet choice? [20:36] seb128: the deskbar item is pretty unintrusive [20:36] it's just one in a long list of search shortcuts [20:36] (I wish it were more prominent, in fact) [20:36] well, the issue is still that user might just try it without knowing what they do and enable tracker [20:37] is that alright, or do we want to prevent that too? [20:37] is the deskbar applet useful without tracker? [20:37] sabdfl: I was wondering if it's really useful too, I don't use it personally [20:38] it's impact a bit on login speed but isn't too much of a nuisance otherwise [20:38] sabdfl: it does web searches etc. [20:38] and there is quite some user enjoy it apparently [20:38] enjoying [20:38] i like the meme of web-search-without-web, but i don't know if we can yet do that justice [20:39] what is the UI like to "turn on indexing of your files" if we disable it by default? [20:40] System -> Prefs -> Search and Indexing -> Enable [20:40] we have a system, preferences, tracker menu item [20:40] what Keybuk wrote ;-) [20:42] ok, then i'm +1 disabling tracker by default, and +1 leaving deskbar in place for the moment [20:43] aol [20:44] I'm not a firefox user but the deskbar applet changes mentioned it not being compatible with firefox 3, did anybody try using it on hardy? [20:45] it impacts on login speed and I'm not sure how useful it is without firefox bookmarks, etc integration [20:45] I'm +1 for disabling indexing by default [20:45] and happy to leave deskbar-applet to seb's discretion [20:45] I agree [20:46] does anybody know if we got good press feedback in gutsy for using deskbar? [20:46] I didn't read much which highlighted it [20:46] but the functionality will still be there and easy to enable [20:46] if it doesn't work with firefox I would disable it [20:46] one of the top complain I read about gutsy was the login speed [20:46] and I'm trying to reduce this one [20:46] seb128: do you think upstream will understand why we felt this was necessary, and that we want to continue to support and work with them? [20:47] speaking about tracker or deskbar? [20:47] I don't think it'll be an issue in either case anyway [20:47] I don't think deskbar is enabled on other distros and it's not upstream and they don't expect it especially [20:50] and I don't think that we will have issues with tracker upstreams if we don't let it run by default, they might be a bit disappointed but it'll still be installed and it's true that it lacks desktop integration they can probably understand the issue [20:50] we are certainly helping them progress towards ubiquity [20:51] ok, I think we have a consensus here [20:51] mdz: next topic? [20:52] the sparc port [20:53] continue... [20:53] so, the sparc port to date has been maintained by Canonical as a commercial project [20:53] which will not extend to 8.04 LTS [20:55] as such, I propose that it transition to an unofficial port, a la powerpc [20:55] +1 [20:56] +1 [20:56] +1 [20:56] any questions? [20:57] any other business? [20:57] mdz: will somebody mails the lists about those decisions? [20:57] seb128: I will [20:57] ok, thanks, no other question ;-) [20:58] ok, then, thanks all [20:58] it has been a long day :-) [21:00] thanks all [23:00] Hello