[00:57] <emgent> @schedule
[00:57] <ubotu> Schedule for Etc/UTC: 12 Mar 21:00: Server Team | 19 Mar 21:00: Server Team | 26 Mar 21:00: Server Team
[20:00] <Keybuk> mdz: ping?
[20:01] <mdz> Keybuk: I am on a conference call
[20:01] <mdz> Keybuk: and I doubt we can expect sabdfl
[20:02] <Keybuk> the one item to discuss today is your own, Tracker :-)
[20:02] <mdz> Keybuk: there is another, actually, which is also mine
[20:02] <Keybuk> I do not see that one?
[20:03] <Keybuk> well, let me introduce the first item and see if anybody would like to discuss it
[20:04] <Keybuk> Tracker consumes a lot of resource, it makes the system slow and unresponsive, and isn't yet useful enough to counter that
[20:04] <Keybuk> the new version makes some improvement, but it's a small step across a large chasm
[20:05] <Keybuk> the suggestion is to disable tracker by default for 8.04
[20:05] <Keybuk> and assumedly remove the deskbar-applet by default too
[20:05] <Keybuk> seb128: thoughts?
[20:08] <Keybuk> ...
[20:09] <seb128> Keybuk: though one, I don't use tracker a lot but I can't say how much that's true for our userbase
[20:09] <seb128> I would like to get user feedback on whether the new version makes things better (it's supposed to pause when user use the keyboard or mouse)
[20:10] <seb128> and maybe that's worth to change the default settings from faster indexing to low ressources use
[20:11] <pochu> I've just got a mail from bug 144434 with good feedback wrt 0.6.6. Don't know whether that's a general case or not though
[20:11] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 144434 in tracker "ignored paths and file patterns should not only be ignored while indexing but also when searching" [Wishlist,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/144434
[20:12] <Keybuk> I don't really have any opinion there
[20:12] <Keybuk> and this is going to be difficult without mdz
[20:12] <mdz> I'm sorry
[20:12] <mdz> I'm almost finished here
[20:13] <seb128> do we have some way to do user pools to know how many of them find tracker useful for example?
[20:15] <pochu> there's ubuntuforums' polls...
[20:16] <mc44> you could let people vote on brainstorm.ubuntu :)
[20:16] <mdz> Keybuk: I'm finished now
[20:17] <mdz> I have pretty bad experiences with tracker
[20:17] <stgraber> http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/46/ http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/278/ http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/3512/
[20:17] <mdz> on my desktop, it seems to reindex continuously even when I don't do anything
[20:17] <seb128> mdz: did you open bugs about that? how responsive upstream has been?
[20:18] <mdz> seb128: I have talked with jaimemcc and Keybuk about the various issues I have had
[20:18] <mdz> jaimemcc has been very responsive
[20:18] <seb128> you still have those using 0.6.6?
[20:18] <mdz> he usually says that the next version will fix everything :-)
[20:18] <seb128> right
[20:19] <mdz> I also see crashes from tracker-extract
[20:19] <mdz> and the programs it calls
[20:19] <mdz> like imagemagick
[20:19] <pochu> 0.6.6 is supposed not to index when you move the mouse or type in the keyboard, isn't that working?
[20:20] <Keybuk> I had a fun one where imagemagick crashed and left a gif file in my home directory
[20:20] <Keybuk> which tracker promptly attempted to index, spawned imagemagick, that crashed, and updated that gif file
[20:20] <Keybuk> ad infinitum
[20:20] <mdz> it also seems to read very large binary files in my home directory
[20:20] <mdz> which aren't useful to index
[20:20] <Keybuk> pochu: hard to tell; I know that today, with latest updates, reboot, etc.
[20:20] <mdz> e.g. backing up a DVD causes it to scan all 7+ GB of data, even though there aren't any keywords in it
[20:20] <seb128> Keybuk: I think that's supposed to be fixed in the new version
[20:21] <Keybuk> my laptop is subjectively much slower and laggy with tracker running than without
[20:21] <seb128> my gut feeling was that tracker is not that useful
[20:21] <Keybuk> tracker could be incredibly useful
[20:21] <mdz> I think it's only useful to people who discover it and want to use it
[20:21] <Keybuk> or at least, a metadata index of the filesystem
[20:21] <seb128> but I changed nautilus to build without it one week ago and I got some user complains on the bug
[20:21] <Keybuk> but I think that the current implementation is just too damned heavy
[20:21] <mdz> which is fine, except that everyone pays a cost for it even if they don't use it
[20:22] <mdz> one suggestion would be to enable indexing the first time the user tries to search
[20:22] <mdz> isn't that what windows does?
[20:22] <Keybuk> mdz: I think you have to explicitly turn on search in Windows
[20:22] <seb128> no idea what windows does, I didn't know it was doing indexing
[20:22] <jcastro> in vista the indexer is on ootb
[20:22] <pochu> the tracker-extract crashes are due setrlimit, which sends signals to the process which dump the core and thus apport will pop up
[20:23] <pochu> I've added a hook so that tracker tells you the reason and they aren't reported. That's not ideal though
[20:24] <mdz> how about we enumerate some options
[20:25] <mdz> - disable indexing by default
[20:25] <mdz> - don't install tracker by default
[20:25] <mdz> - leave things as they are
[20:26] <Keybuk> what's the difference between disabling indexing and watching?
[20:26] <pochu> watching will keep indexing after the initial index IIRC
[20:26] <Keybuk> indexing can be off but watching on
[20:26] <mdz> I think indexing means index on login or similar
[20:26] <Keybuk> does that mean anything, or is it just a missing set_sensitive(FALSE) ?
[20:26] <mdz> and watching is incremental (inotify)
[20:27] <mdz> but I haven't read the code and am guessing
[20:27] <seb128> Keybuk: what does watching without indexing do?
[20:27] <mdz> seb128: I think that's what he's asking
[20:28] <Keybuk> seb128: with Watching but not Indexing, the last thing trackerd says is "starting indexing"
[20:29] <Keybuk> but admittedly doesn't seem to do much else
[20:29] <mdz> I just tried disabling indexing (which caused trackerd to be restarted and the status icon to disappear) and re-enabling it (which didn't cause the icon to reappear)
[20:30] <mdz> I think tracker is progressing very well, but just isn't on track to be ready for 8.04
[20:30] <mdz> it will take some time to get there
[20:31] <pochu> EnableIndexing=BOOLEAN
[20:31] <pochu> Enable or disable the indexer.
[20:31] <Keybuk> disabling indexing seems the right course to me, then it's trivial to turn back on if users want it
[20:31] <pochu> EnableWatching=BOOLEAN
[20:31] <pochu> Enables or disables watching of directories, i.e. re-index files when
[20:31] <pochu> they change.
[20:31] <Keybuk> and it might even be easy to enable it on search
[20:31] <pochu> hopefully that makes things clearer :)
[20:32] <pochu> (that's from tracker.cfg(5) btw)
[20:32] <mdz> Keybuk: sabdfl inbound
[20:32] <seb128> ok, so let's keep tracker installed but don't use it by default?
[20:32] <sabdfl> 'allo 'allo, all
[20:32] <mdz> seb128: if indexing is disabled and the user tries to do a search, will it let them easily enable it?
[20:32] <mdz> sabdfl: topic is tracker for 8.04, go/no-go
[20:33] <sabdfl> is that the only matter at hand? nothing on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TechnicalBoardAgenda
[20:34] <seb128> hey sabdfl
[20:34] <mdz> sabdfl: when we're done with that, it's time to talk about sparc
[20:34] <sabdfl> mdz, could you paste me the conversation to date, or mail it?
[20:34] <mdz> sabdfl: will mail
[20:34] <sabdfl> thanks
[20:34] <mdz> sabdfl: done
[20:35] <seb128> mdz: I think it's autoactivated for the session using dbus activation but that's not a setting change, so it'll not be available after next login, should be easy to change if we want to though
[20:35] <mdz> seb128: that seems like the best compromise
[20:35] <mdz> we want to make it available to people who use it, but without intruding on users who don't know it exists
[20:35] <seb128> how do we expect users to use it though?
[20:35] <seb128> using the tracker interface from the menu?
[20:36] <seb128> or do we still want to list the deskbar applet choice?
[20:36] <mdz> seb128: the deskbar item is pretty unintrusive
[20:36] <mdz> it's just one in a long list of search shortcuts
[20:36] <mdz> (I wish it were more prominent, in fact)
[20:36] <seb128> well, the issue is still that user might just try it without knowing what they do and enable tracker
[20:37] <seb128> is that alright, or do we want to prevent that too?
[20:37] <sabdfl> is the deskbar applet useful without tracker?
[20:37] <seb128> sabdfl: I was wondering if it's really useful too, I don't use it personally
[20:38] <seb128> it's impact a bit on login speed but isn't too much of a nuisance otherwise
[20:38] <mdz> sabdfl: it does web searches etc.
[20:38] <seb128> and there is quite some user enjoy it apparently
[20:38] <seb128> enjoying
[20:38] <sabdfl> i like the meme of web-search-without-web, but i don't know if we can yet do that justice
[20:39] <sabdfl> what is the UI like to "turn on indexing of your files" if we disable it by default?
[20:40] <Keybuk> System -> Prefs -> Search and Indexing -> Enable
[20:40] <seb128> we have a system, preferences, tracker menu item
[20:40] <seb128> what Keybuk wrote ;-)
[20:42] <sabdfl> ok, then i'm +1 disabling tracker by default, and +1 leaving deskbar in place for the moment
[20:43] <Keybuk> aol
[20:44] <seb128> I'm not a firefox user but the deskbar applet changes mentioned it not being compatible with firefox 3, did anybody try using it on hardy?
[20:45] <seb128> it impacts on login speed and I'm not sure how useful it is without firefox bookmarks, etc integration
[20:45] <Keybuk> I'm +1 for disabling indexing by default
[20:45] <Keybuk> and happy to leave deskbar-applet to seb's discretion
[20:45] <mdz> I agree
[20:46] <seb128> does anybody know if we got good press feedback in gutsy for using deskbar?
[20:46] <mdz> I didn't read much which highlighted it
[20:46] <mdz> but the functionality will still be there and easy to enable
[20:46] <seb128> if it doesn't work with firefox I would disable it
[20:46] <seb128> one of the top complain I read about gutsy was the login speed
[20:46] <seb128> and I'm trying to reduce this one
[20:46] <mdz> seb128: do you think upstream will understand why we felt this was necessary, and that we want to continue to support and work with them?
[20:47] <seb128> speaking about tracker or deskbar?
[20:47] <seb128> I don't think it'll be an issue in either case anyway
[20:47] <seb128> I don't think deskbar is enabled on other distros and it's not upstream and they don't expect it especially
[20:50] <seb128> and I don't think that we will have issues with tracker upstreams if we don't let it run by default, they might be a bit disappointed but it'll still be installed and it's true that it lacks desktop integration they can probably understand the issue
[20:50] <sabdfl> we are certainly helping them progress towards ubiquity
[20:51] <Keybuk> ok, I think we have a consensus here
[20:51] <Keybuk> mdz: next topic?
[20:52] <mdz> the sparc port
[20:53] <Keybuk> continue...
[20:53] <mdz> so, the sparc port to date has been maintained by Canonical as a commercial project
[20:53] <mdz> which will not extend to 8.04 LTS
[20:55] <mdz> as such, I propose that it transition to an unofficial port, a la powerpc
[20:55] <sabdfl> +1
[20:56] <Keybuk> +1
[20:56] <mdz> +1
[20:56] <mdz> any questions?
[20:57] <mdz> any other business?
[20:57] <seb128> mdz: will somebody mails the lists about those decisions?
[20:57] <mdz> seb128: I will
[20:57] <seb128> ok, thanks, no other question ;-)
[20:58] <mdz> ok, then, thanks all
[20:58] <mdz> it has been a long day :-)
[21:00] <sabdfl> thanks all
[23:00] <DPic> Hello