[04:55] <DanaG> I wonder... is it possible to replicate the Nodoka engine with Murrine?
[04:56] <DanaG> Especially with the packaged version of Murrine, I mean.
[09:20]  * kwwii is sick today :-(
[12:57] <_MMA_> nothlit`1ore: What happened with all the wiki work and coordination man? You dropped out.
[15:25] <soc> hi
[15:25] <soc> are there any plans to discus the ui fonts?
[15:26] <soc> at the moment ubuntu uses dejavu sans as a default, which looks very well, but doesn't have the characteristics of an interface font
[15:28] <soc> sorry
[15:28] <soc> closed the window
[15:28] <soc> i would propose testing dejavu sans condensed and droid as an ui font ...
[15:29] <soc> droid's auto-hinting looks certainly better than both lucida and tahoma on linux
[15:43] <soc> damn!
[15:43] <soc> why do i always close that window
[15:43] <soc> did i miss something? :-)
[18:26] <so1> hi
[18:26] <so1> are there any plans to discus the ui fonts?
[18:27] <so1> at the moment ubuntu uses dejavu sans as a default, which looks very well, but doesn't have the characteristics of an interface font
[18:32] <_MMA_> so1: I'm pretty sure this is set for Hardy. If you would like to chat about it the -desktop or -artwork mailing lists might be best.
[18:43] <kwwii> one of the reasons that we use the fonts we use is that they are the most complete in the most languages
[18:47] <Cimi> so1, dejavu has full UTF-8 support
[19:01] <psyke83> kwwii, have you got a minute to discuss Human-Murrine?
[19:01] <psyke83> I also want to bring this bug to everybody's attention: https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/195929
[19:02] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 195929 in gtk2-engines-murrine "Cosmetic bug: rectangular white outline surrounding rounded buttons" [Low,Fix committed]
[19:23] <kwwii> psyke83: I am sick today, catch me tomorrow, ok?
[19:23] <psyke83> kwwii, no prob
[19:25] <kwwii> thnx :-)
[19:26] <so1> hi _MMA_, CImi
[19:27] <so1> wouldn't at least dejavu sans condensed be worth discussing then?
[19:27] <so1> it has the same coverage as dejavu sans
[19:41] <cOzAtS> hello ppl!
[19:48] <cOzAtS> need another graphic designer to help? Total noob in programming but i can help in graphics. Especialy when it comes to print material...:)
[19:58] <thorwil> so1: i doubt any condensed font is a good idea as a default
[19:58] <thorwil> so1: screen fonts like verdana are rather wide for a reason
[20:49] <so1> thorwil: verdana is a screen font, not an interface font
[20:50] <so1> and dejavu can be considered a screen font too
[20:50] <so1> but both are certainly no interface fonts
[20:53] <so1> they have both excessive letter widths ...
[20:53] <_MMA_> so1: You still haven't mentioned a preference. Though, I think it would be best on a mailing list. It will just get lost here.
[20:54] <so1> i would prefer either dejavu sans condensed or droid
[20:54] <Tm_T> so1: what is this "interface font" thing?
[20:55] <so1> Tm_T: look at lucida/tahoma/droid ...
[20:55] <so1> Tm_T: readable fonts _without_ excessive widths ...
[20:55] <Tm_T> so1: I fail to see what's wrong with DejaVu Sans Mono
[20:55] <so1> mono?
[20:55] <Tm_T> mono <3
[20:55] <Tm_T> so1: or better, Aurabesh
[20:57] <Tm_T> so1: oh well, I'm no hu-man, they are weird
[20:57] <Tm_T> so1: reference to my usage: http://www.tm-travolta.net/shots/current.png
[20:58] <so1> my point was that dejavu doesn't really look elegant enough, it is not functional because it wastes too much space
[20:58] <Tm_T> roger
[20:58] <Tm_T> though I disagree with you, I see now your point
[20:58] <so1> dejavu sans is really ok
[20:58] <thorwil> tight fonts are hard to read, especially on screen
[20:58] <so1> nothing bad about it
[20:59] <so1> but the font wasn't built with interfaces in mind
[20:59] <thorwil> true
[20:59] <so1> dejavu sans condensed has 99% the same width as tahoma or lucida
[21:00] <so1> dajavu is really wide, like verdana... and i don't know many people who use verdana as an ui font
[21:02] <psyke83> so1, DejaVu Sans Condensed is far too thin and will cause readability issues with many people
[21:02] <psyke83> so1, try changing your fontconfig to autohinter/always subpixel, and then GNOME Appearances to Grayscale/Slight - that makes all fonts more readable, IMHO a better fix than changing fonts
[21:02] <thorwil> i was under the impression that dejavu has rather ... normal width
[21:04] <Tm_T> it does
[21:04] <Tm_T> so1: see my pic, see any "too wide text" there?
[21:14] <so1> Tm_T: which pic?
[21:15] <so1> psyke83: i have that setting already
[21:27] <Tm_T> so1: http://www.tm-travolta.net/shots/current.png
[21:34] <so1> ah ok
[21:36] <psyke83> so1, what about Liberation Sans?
[21:37] <_MMA_> Debian says its not free enough.
[21:37] <_MMA_> Google will show the situation.
[22:08] <so1> psyke83: one moment ...
[22:14] <so1> http://pix-nw.de/_intern/soc/font-comparison.png
[22:14] <so1> here
[22:18] <so1> ok, first we see Verdana and it's clone DejaVu
[22:18] <so1> Verdana is not used as a default ui font anywhere afaik
[22:18] <so1> dejavu is used in ubuntu
[22:18] <so1> the next one is already significantly smaller: lucida
[22:18] <so1> it is used on macs
[22:19] <so1> the next one is dejavu sans condensed, although condensed its width is bigger than most other fonts on this list
[22:19] <so1> then trebuchet ms: used in windows for title bars
[22:20] <so1> droid sans: used on mobile phones with android
[22:20] <so1> then arial and it's clone liberation sans
[22:21] <so1> the last and absolutely smallest one is tahome, used as the default ui font on win 2000, xp and 2003
[22:35]  * _MMA_ is considering using dejavu sans condensed in Ubuntu Studio. Though we set a smaller font than Ubuntu and its not as big a difference in the *size* of dejavu sans condensed 10pt and dejavu sans 9pt.
[23:01] <so1> _MMA_: it's worth to try out things like 9.5 or 8.5 ... sometimes they look really nice
[23:01] <so1> ^just a suggestion
[23:01] <_MMA_> Sure. Like most of this ongoing chat. :P
[23:01] <so1> i tried to write it up a bit: http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/4924/