[00:03] \sh_away: Through the `Remove linked CVE' or similar link. [00:07] LaserJock, how do i check for it? If i say it is a python software, it is unlikely to use it. Am I right? [00:07] Heya gang === ^4nDr3s is now known as ^1234 === ^1234 is now known as ^4nDr3s === ^4nDr3s is now known as ubuntu-pe [00:54] heya people [00:57] * Hobbsee waves [00:58] * RAOF shores [01:04] Hi again guys. I hope someone new will read this and be able to help. I setup my own repository, and apt-get update is complaining it can't download my Release file. Apache logs show a 304 error (not changed). Huh? even if I 'touch' the file, add a package, run apt-ftparchive, etc... same error. I'm confused. [01:10] Ok, more news. if I delete the Release.gpg all works, except it's not a secure apt repository. === _jgreenwa is now known as jetsaredim [02:58] Is tremulous 1.1.1 in repos? [02:59] for Ubuntu Hardy? [02:59] ethana2: packages.ubuntu.com would tell you that [02:59] and no, it is now [02:59] thanks [02:59] er, not [02:59] looks like 1.1.0 [02:59] 1.1.0 is not release quality [02:59] ...but 1.2 is nearly mythical [03:00] the trem folks put together some good stuff but they're disorganized as heck [03:00] there's a backport at.... [03:00] http://tremulous.tjw.org/backport/linux/ [03:00] it needs to replace 1.1 in repos, if possible [03:01] ethana2: we're in Feature Freeze, we would have to have an exception filed [03:01] oh [03:01] *sigh* [03:01] wait, they freeze /universe/ repos?? [03:02] is this why pidgin's been like 4 releases old for the past.... [03:02] No; pidgin is in main. [03:02] oh that's right [03:02] forgot about that [03:02] Debian doesn't have it either, so it'd have to be packaged by someone: http://packages.qa.debian.org/t/tremulous.html [03:02] Also, just because it's in Universe doesn't mean its not supported. We still want to stabilise! [03:02] right [03:02] i'll ask the trem folks a quick question then [03:03] Has anyone else seen build warning from dpkg-shlibdeps when building something against libgtk-x11? [03:03] s/warning/warnings/ [03:03] RAOF: better than that. it's in multiverse. [03:04] Hobbsee: I'm torn about trying for a Gnome Do FFe. On the one hand, the new version is *a lot* more useful. On the other, there's a lot of changes :/ [03:05] It also handles errors in plugins better... [03:06] ...and not many people use it yet... [03:06] RAOF: please stick it in a ppa somewhere [03:06] i'd like to see it in [03:06] Ok. [03:10] Repeat after me: we check it builds *before* uploading to PPA :/ [03:10] yeah [03:10] like, say... libc [03:10] ethana2: Oh, that built just fine. [03:10] oh yeah [03:10] compiler flags [03:11] It would have been _much_ better if it had simply FTBFS :) [03:11] FTBFS? [03:11] Failed To Build From Source [03:11] ah [03:11] so it threw no errors [03:11] AKA: you suck. [03:12] Indeed. It threw no errors. And I think other packages would have built against it properly... just not run. [03:12] interesting [03:12] And for added fun, the compile flags aren't set in a pbulider environment. [03:15] Hmm... [03:16] Is there anyway I can set my core OS and utils to stable repos... [03:16] and use beta-stability repos for userland? [03:16] ...and hardware drivers? [03:17] No. [03:17] Not really. [03:19] ethana2: This is why we have backports. So that you can get newer apps built for the stable release. [03:24] * RAOF goes to fill out some FFe paperwork. [03:27] Hobbsee: The new Do is now in the do-core PPA, if you're interested (https://edge.launchpad.net/~do-core/+archive). amd64 has built already, i386 is yet to build. [03:27] oh wait, yeah..... [03:28] ScottK2: I had all the way up to proposed updates enabled [03:28] RAOF: sounds like i need to abuse power then. [03:28] Hobbsee: Eh. PPA has become *fast* to build (so fast that I frequently get clock-skew on my nouveau builds). [03:28] RAOF: what percent of their current market would canonical lose by ditchind i386 - i586? [03:29] ethana2: Absolutely no idea. We probably wouldn't gain much by ditching < pentium pro, though. [03:30] Hobbsee: Would you lease ack Bug #203332 [03:30] Launchpad bug 203332 in claws-mail-extra-plugins "[FFe] claws-mail 3.3.1-1ubuntu1" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/203332 [03:30] MMX? [03:30] RAOF: half the packages already need i686 or greater in repos [03:31] ethana2: Code which benefits from SIMD generally already has it; it's also difficult for the compiler to dynamically do SMID. [03:31] Screaming Cindy is *hard*. [03:31] ethana2: Alternatively, you could join the x86-64 self-flagellation society. [03:31] Hmm... I guess what I mean to say is that for all practical purposes, desktop ubuntu requires an i686 or greater [03:31] Usually it involves register brutalisation [03:32] ...so officially supporting anything less is less productive than supporting ppc [03:33] But officially *breaking* < i686 gets you practically nothing, and breaks unofficial stuff :) [03:33] I seriously doubt "half the packages already need i686 or greater in repos [03:33] libc, all the codecs.... [03:33] oh, nevermind [03:33] ethana2: Really? [03:33] libc6 is not i686 optimised. [03:33] they compile a version for i686 though [03:33] And? [03:33] i guess my final proposal is that the number of people.... [03:34] The default libc isn't i686 optimised [03:34] I mean, we have libc6-686, and all the (sane) codecs use liboil which is a bunch of dynamically called SMID code. [03:34] running ubuntu on pre PII CPU's should be gathered [03:34] ...and then we should have a look at them [03:34] (By "sane" I mean "gstreamer") [03:35] liboil sounds like it could be handy on the ps3 [03:35] Quite possibly. [03:35] dynamically calling alternate code to run on multiple ISAs [03:35] ...that's... that's brilliant for the Cell [03:35] You mean, SPUs, right? [03:35] yes [03:35] Hobbsee: Thanks. [03:36] Anyway. I want to make Do rock in Hardy, and towards that end... [03:36] * RAOF goes off to read FFe again. [03:36] ScottK2: y/w [03:39] If a package is low enough in stability or has too many bugs [03:39] does it get booted from universe to multiverse? [03:39] heya people [03:39] emgent: heya [03:40] ethana2: no, it's free vs non-free [03:40] ethana2: No. Multiverse is only for non-free code. If it's too buggy, it just gets dropped. [03:40] oh [03:40] *sigh* [03:41] would it be blasphemy to suggest dropping tremulous? [03:42] emgent: you a web designer? [03:43] developer* [03:43] ethana2: What would be your rationale? [03:44] Note: we have lots of buggy stuff. Usually it's just abandoned with no upstream buggy stuff so there's no hope of improvement that gets removed. [03:44] ScottK2: well... many outstanding and obvious bugs.. everybody who wants a release quality version has to pick between 1.1 and a feature backport [03:45] Help us get 1.1 then. [03:45] 1.1 is in repos [03:45] Ah. [03:45] 1.1 is not release quality [03:45] Oh. [03:45] So help us get whatever is the right version then. [03:45] there is no right version [03:45] * ScottK2 needs to go clean the kitchen. Good night. [03:45] 1.1 needs two bugfixes backported [03:45] * emgent upgrading devbox to hardy [03:45] night ScottK2 [03:45] 'night [03:46] ethana2: Then make a debdiff with the fixes and we'll get it uploaded. [03:46] So we can shipped a working one. [03:46] ScottK2: time to figure out what the heck's going on [03:46] this should be fun for a non-coder [03:46] i'll do what i can. [03:46] fair enough [03:46] Good night really this time ... [03:46] yes [03:49] <_MMA_> ethana2: You're planning on getting a Tremulous SVN (or whatever) in the repos? [03:50] _MMA_: the trem folks are disorganized as heck [03:50] _MMA_: and basically what's in repos isn't good enough [03:50] they never took the time to make a solid stable release [03:50] so somebody needs to take 1.1 and backport a few major bugfixes [03:51] ...it's coded in C.. [03:51] You know, I don't think I'm going to be able to be that person [03:51] <_MMA_> ethana2: We need to sty close to what they have officially released or pull from whatever VCS they use. [03:51] unless there's no conflict in that code at all [03:51] i'll ask [03:51] RAOF: why do you have 0 karma on that account? [03:52] https://edge.launchpad.net/~raof-ubuntu should be merged [03:53] guys, it's worse than i thought [03:53] anyone who uses a tremulous client that's not broken horribly [03:53] can't play on trem servers [03:53] or the majority of them at least [03:53] Hobbsee: !!! [03:53] <_MMA_> ethana2: Thats a problem of the Trem community really. [03:54] yes [03:54] <_MMA_> ethana2: We really just cant start throwing any old patch/mod into the package. tjw or otherwise. [03:54] they use svn, btw [03:54] yarrr [03:54] <_MMA_> Cool. [03:56] RAOF: hm? [03:56] 1.1 is hopeless, investigating svn head [03:56] Hobbsee: I didn't know I had a duplicate launchpad account. It's now merged in. [03:56] <_MMA_> ethana2: The problem is the community upgrades their servers with all kinds of stuff and breaks the repo packages. Run a server from the repo packages with the same client ant you're fine. [03:56] RAOF: :) [03:57] _MMA_: yeah [03:57] <_MMA_> ethana2: And I would further say this work should be coordinated with the debian-games team which absorbed the Ubuntu one. AFAIK. [03:57] Is there a way to have a package that doesn't exist in stable repos? [03:58] ..but does in backports [03:58] ..or proposed? [03:58] <_MMA_> ethana2: PPA [03:58] sorry, what's PPA again, i forgot [03:58] <_MMA_> But that unofficial and doesnt really benefit all. [03:59] <_MMA_> Personal Package Archive [03:59] ah [04:01] <_MMA_> I watch the Trem community close and regardless of how slow they are going they are active. It's best to wait for a official release. Or at lease a stable SVN revision that's acceptability to Debian as well. [04:04] hmm [04:04] RAOF: is there any point in the plugins if i don't use rhythmbox or amarok? [04:04] Well, 1.2 should be out sometime during the Year of the Linux Desktop [04:04] with all Ubuntu is doing, that should be around 2009 [04:06] Hobbsee: _Yes_. There's a shiny new launchpad plugin, the OpenSearch plugin for web searching, and a bunch of other plugins. [04:06] RAOF: right, thought so [04:06] The rhythmbox & amarok plugins are separated out into different packages because Do doesn't yet have the ability to selectively disable plugins. [04:07] Hobbsee: What *do* you use on the music front? [04:07] RAOF: exaile [04:08] Ah, right. [04:09] <_MMA_> Hobbsee: Are you using it in Hardy? With the EQ? I get terrible static with any gstreamer app that uses the EQ. :-/ [04:10] * StevenK is waiting for Exaile to get better [04:10] But it shows a lot of promise [04:11] _MMA_: yes, and i'm not sure on the eq [04:11] i haven't ntoiced static [04:11] <_MMA_> k [04:12] Hobbsee: bug #203415 is available for your delectation. [04:12] Launchpad bug 203415 in gnome-do "FFe request: Gnome-Do 0.4.0.1" [Wishlist,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/203415 [04:13] <_MMA_> StevenK: It's really good now but I am moving away from gstreamer apps. Something about sound in gstreamer just doesnt sound, right. [04:13] * StevenK just uses Quod Libet [04:13] * RAOF uses Rhythbox. [04:13] And will try out banshee-1 anytime now... [04:14] <_MMA_> Audacious here now. :P [04:15] _MMA_: trem is short on manpower.. all the people they attract are game hackers these days [04:15] they don't want more of them, but they need more core devs [04:15] it's suffocating [04:15] hackers, hackers, everywhere... and not a patch to sync [04:15] * StevenK has a plot to re-evaluate music players after Hardy [04:15] <_MMA_> ethana2: Sure. [04:16] I'm not sure I like my music player taking up 600Mb [04:16] <_MMA_> StevenK: Wow. And that is? [04:16] Well, 567MB virtual, 63MB resident [04:16] Quod Libet [04:17] Not so bad, then. [04:17] <_MMA_> Yeah. [04:17] <_MMA_> StevenK: Large collection? [04:17] _MMA_: ~ 1,400 songs [04:17] StevenK: Rythmbox manages 922Mb virt here (and 72Mb resident, with 23Mb shared) [04:18] Yummy [04:18] Part of that's the 64bit tax, of course. [04:18] Mmmmm, so is mine. [04:18] Heh. OK :) [04:19] ah, there we go. it's found the update now [04:19] * Hobbsee loves buildd admin powers [04:44] * StevenK tries to translate Amaranth's quit message [04:44] and no eggs [04:44] I thought so [04:44] Tool - Die Eier Von Satan.mp3 [04:44] it's from a tool song [04:44] :D [04:45] * StevenK grins and high fives Amaranth [04:46] * StevenK queues it [04:47] Satan's Eggs? [04:47] RAOF: Right. [04:47] Well, literally, "The Eggs of Satan" [04:47] RAOF: it's a really evil sounding song but it's just a recipe for hash cookies in german [04:48] That doesn't include eggs [04:48] i mean, if you didn't know what they were saying it sounds like a song about devil worship or something :P [04:48] Heh. [04:48] Hobbsee: And for your further enjoyment, bug #203420 [04:49] Launchpad bug 203420 in do-plugins "FFe request: do-plugins 0.4.0" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/203420 [04:57] RAOF: holy crap, airlied has drm multi-master support working [04:57] and kernel modesetting [04:57] Multi-master? [04:57] so user switching with no flicker and compiz on two users [04:57] Yay! Suspend on nouveau creeps ever closer! [04:57] multi-master, multiple X servers with access to the drm [04:58] Awesome. [04:58] It seems compiz may have spawned a huge make-X-awesome push. [04:59] RAOF: that's what i hoped would happen :) [04:59] and the thing i argued for in pushing to enable it by default in gutsy :P [04:59] we enabled it so everyone else had to to match features and now a bunch of people are working to make it suck less [04:59] And it'll only take ~2 releases. [05:00] hehe, yeah [05:00] A year's turnaround from "_totally_ sucks" to "rock on" is pretty good :) [05:10] wait, so can both my users have 3d [05:10] ..my dual seat has both on one radeon card now [05:11] ..but it would be nice to have opengl before figuring out how to move one to my intel integrated [05:11] ethana2: As long as you run git head of _everything_. Oh, and it's probably for intel only right now, although maybe it isn't. [05:12] so my /other/ dual seat may be able to start working with git drivers [05:12] *sigh* [05:12] i'm a glutton for punishment [05:12] i'd settle for getting this rig off of userful, it's not letting me do what I need to do [05:13] i should have no problem with opengl when each seat uses its own card, right? [05:14] without git cloning? [05:14] As long as neither is using a blob, I think the answer is yes. [05:14] sweet [05:14] neither is, no nvidia here [05:15] it'd be awesome if canonical purchased userful and merged it with Screens and Graphics [05:15] ...while I'm dreaming, I'd like a CBE based tabletPC [05:18] And I'd like AMD to drop everything and write a functional driver for my graphics card, then release it under the GPL. [05:18] tonyyarusso: specs are great [05:18] Free pipe dreams, news at 11 [05:18] ethana2: haven't done anything for me yet. [05:18] what time zone? [05:18] tonyyarusso: oh, they will [05:18] heh, when I buy a new computer maybe [05:19] tonyyarusso: as gallium stabilizes, you'll see some really exciting things [05:19] i still have a radeon 9200se [05:19] and a rage mobility [05:19] they're going to release old specs too [05:19] don't despair [05:19] ethana2: this is a Radeon Mobility X300, btw [05:19] then it's a matter of months [05:20] You think so? For full OSS 3D compositing support? [05:20] yes. [05:21] That'd be nice. [05:21] * tonyyarusso writes sped for Intrepid, assigns ethana2 ;) [05:22] actually, i'm an idea guy [05:22] i like to know /exactly/ what's going on [05:22] ...maybe within a year i'll start coding stuff in C++ [05:22] ....but the current generation of GUI is not something i want to touch [05:49] good morning [05:49] ethana2: Eh. Just touch the bindings in sensible languages, then. Python, C#, Java, Boo, Nemerle, F#, haskell... [05:51] I'm not talking about languages [05:51] I'm saying the 'window' paradigm isn't something i want to touch [05:51] let me get you a link [05:52] http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=521131 [05:52] Gnome bug 521131 in general "Merge gnome panel and window decorator, reimplement standard window components and decorations as panel applets." [Enhancement,Unconfirmed] [05:52] ethana2: Aaah. You'd prefer document-centric, ala Gnome 3? [05:52] That's what I want to code from [05:52] for* [05:52] if gnome3 can do what I want [05:52] exactly [05:52] then perhaps [05:52] Dear nvidia: I hate you. [05:52] did you sign the petition to that effect? [05:53] ethana2: that's so crack [05:53] thanks. [05:53] i'll settle for nothing less [05:54] ..which is pretty much regardless of what 'so crack' means [05:54] ^_^ [05:55] ethana2: i imagine as soon as someone cares to look they'll close your bug as "total crack" [05:55] i've got several people who say otherwise [05:55] it's old though [05:55] that incarnation [05:55] since then i've added a window list that auto-expands to serve also as the window title bar applet [05:56] ..and made my ideas more similar to the current default ubuntu config [05:57] is "over my dead body" reason enough to vote down an idea or close a bug report? [05:57] basically "not going to happen dude" but the reason it's not going to happen is because i won't let it :P [05:57] the stuff of flame wars, that [05:57] it's all optional [05:58] That's not a good excuse :) [05:58] if you want to keep /your/ gui exactly as it is now, fine [05:58] but i want what i want [05:58] and it's not windows, and it's not mac [05:58] So does everyone else [05:58] ethana2: and i don't feel like writing the code for what you want [05:58] ok, that's fine [05:58] ethana2: so that stops your idea pretty dead there [05:58] if i must, i can hire my own team to do it [05:59] as a fork [05:59] $10,000 to give people a real glimpse of this idea? [05:59] yes, perhaps a fork [05:59] if it comes to it [05:59] and that's fine at first [05:59] "at first"? [05:59] yes. [05:59] ethana2: So, the first thing I think of is that windows are actually quite reasonable objects: taking the compontents of the window and scattering them means you need to do more work to provide context for them. [05:59] it'll be "until the end of time" or "until pigs fly and you manage to kill my version" [06:00] *sigh* [06:00] ok, then on to /bringing/ macs into this [06:00] how hard is it for them to connect their menu bar with the app in focus in their mind? [06:00] don't bring macs into this, they do little right since OS X [06:00] they do a heck of a lot wrong [06:00] apple is evil [06:00] ..but i'm saying you could do many things with my idea [06:01] and people can get used to what they choose [06:01] very hard, that was the #1 thing that my grandparents and my younger cousin couldn't figure out [06:01] Yeah, my partner too. [06:01] well alright [06:01] The only reason OS X still does that is because it's historcial baggage. [06:01] well, that is "closing a window doesn't exit the application" [06:01] s/is/and/ [06:01] ok, yeah that's horrible [06:01] my menu applet would actually go in the window top panel [06:01] what we now call 'the title bar' [06:01] And dear Steve isn't going to let go of it, I suspect. [06:02] * RAOF doesn't particularly mind "closing window doesn't exit the app", as long as it doesn't leak too much. [06:02] StevenK: and what would they _put_ up there? :) [06:02] tbh I despise Steve [06:02] RAOF: it's really bad when safari is chewing CPU and doesn't stop until you exit it completely [06:02] Applications, Places, System, People [06:02] ah, gimmie [06:02] ...and that's why bringing them into it was a mistake [06:02] no, slimmer than gimmie [06:02] Amaranth: A banner that projects what Apple products you need to buy [06:02] gimmie went a little over the top [06:02] just a little [06:03] Amaranth: Right. So that's a safari bug, not necessarily a problem with the idea. Although the problem of the idea is that there'll _always_ be apps that do that. [06:03] ethana2: gimmie sounds much saner than your thing [06:03] ok, yes [06:03] if they're not going to do anything like that in gtk3, then what's the point of /having/ a gtk3? [06:03] marketing? [06:03] drastic? assuredly. [06:03] ethana2: Version number bumping! [06:04] actually that is sort of the main reason [06:04] people want to see a 3.0, we'll give them a 3.0 :P [06:04] *sigh* [06:04] although since the hackfest this has been changed somewhat [06:04] version numbers mean little if anything to me [06:04] now the idea for 3.0 seems to be to seal up all widgets so you can't can't directly access their internals and release that as 3.0 (since it breaks ABI) [06:05] oh no! [06:05] *sob* [06:05] then in later releases they can use this new freedom to replace the guts of the widgets with something based on a scene graph [06:05] hmm [06:06] And then: cake. [06:06] ethana2: being able to access the internals of a widget is _bad_ [06:06] ok [06:06] unless the assumed paradigm is bad [06:06] it means they can't change anything about how the widget works without breaking compatibility [06:06] ok, well we have the source [06:06] they can do what they please [06:06] they can't do your right right now, for example [06:06] because it would break compatibility [06:06] not with people literally /dead/ set against it [06:07] i'm aware i may have to fork /every/ gnome app out there [06:07] assuming they were smoking enough crack to think your idea was worth doing, that is [06:07] they don't have to be [06:07] ethana2: not every gnome app, every app in existence [06:07] if it runs on X you have to fork it and modify it [06:07] this is why big changes don't happen :P [06:07] if they don't integrate well, screw 'em [06:07] you can't make everyone change and apps that don't look...funny [06:07] they can load all that window decorator stuff [06:07] ethana2: and there go all your users [06:08] nope [06:08] Amaranth: this may be a faulty assumption.. [06:08] ethana2: you won't even be able to have firefox [06:08] but you didn't read every last line of that post [06:08] that can be modified too [06:08] but you aren't allowed to call the result firefox :) [06:08] pretty sure it's the same with GNOME [06:09] ok, persistent patch [06:09] and Ubuntu, etc [06:09] that i can't count on them to not break [06:09] then the mod becomes part of the environment almost [06:09] the app is still firefox [06:09] But then you can't call it Firefox [06:09] it will be though [06:09] nothing else modified, all the credits in place, everything [06:09] It can't be, you can't call it Firefox [06:10] *sigh* [06:10] ok then, random 'element', random animal [06:10] Have you read the Mozilla license? You can't call it Firefox, which is why Debian has Iceweasel [06:10] ahhhhh [06:10] i was wondering exactly what iceweasel was [06:11] i'm thinking ...earth angel [06:11] no really though, that stands to be trivial [06:11] heck [06:11] let the user name the app themselves [06:11] or name it nothing at all! less junk in the title applet [06:12] well, this isn't as directly related to the immediate development of ubuntu as would be proper [06:12] but please don't kill that gnome bug without reading all i have to say about it [06:12] render my dreams in your mind [06:13] as cheesy as that may sound [06:13]