[00:01] <jdong> Amaranth: well right now 90% of the bootup is bound by readahead and udevtrigger (i.e. modprobe, initramfs)
[00:02] <jdong> Amaranth: the actual sequence starting from root remounted rw to GDM is like less than 5s with upstart :D
[00:02] <Amaranth> jdong: so with my non-slow HD this should be like 10 seconds or less from grub to gdm
[00:02] <Amaranth> seeing how i get over 40MB/s in hdparm
[00:02] <jdong> Amaranth: yeah, I bet you can get close to that
[00:03] <jdong> Amaranth: and I think by not having udevtrigger block until gdm, I can get things even faster :)
[00:03] <Amaranth> well if you're topping out at 12MB/s and getting 15 seconds from grub to gdm i'm sure i can go a bit faster :)
[00:03] <jdong> Amaranth: i.e. I'll need to go grab upstart trunk with multiple conditional support for start
[00:04] <Amaranth> with the kind of reads done at boot i should be able to get over 20MB/s
[00:04] <jdong> Amaranth: my ext3 root is pretty thrashed too in terms of abuse, upgrading, filling to capacity, etc
[00:04] <jdong> Amaranth: if I just re-populate it with the same files I bet I can lower the boot time even more :D
[00:04] <Amaranth> don't we have a defragmenter for ext3 yet?
[00:04] <jdong> Amaranth: I can hear the disk thrashing heavily as soon as readahead is done till the end of bootup
[00:05] <jdong> Amaranth: I don't know if I trust e2defrag all that much. I'll gove it a shot some time
[00:15] <nalioth> anyone familiar with FloodBotES in -es ?
[00:16] <LjL> nalioth: yes
[00:16] <LjL> nalioth: ask roasoax in -irc
[00:16] <LjL> roaksoax
[00:17] <nalioth> it's fixing to be klined
[00:17] <nalioth> it's phishing for users passwords
[00:18] <LjL> nalioth, i think not on purpose. anyway the guy speaks english fine
[00:24] <Hobbsee> jpatrick: apparently the nick is unregged.  no idea.
[00:35] <jdong> Amaranth: http://jdong.mit.edu/~jdong/macbook/depchart/dep.png
[00:35] <Amaranth> jdong: surprisingly shallow
[00:35] <jdong> Amaranth: which is a good sign
[00:35] <Amaranth> yes, it means it can be run highly parallel :)
[00:36] <jdong> Amaranth: the parallelism from checkfs out is encouraging
[00:36] <Amaranth> crackwifi?
[00:37] <Amaranth> it gets a bit screwy at the end there
[00:37] <jdong> Amaranth: it's my madwifi compile-at-startup thing
[00:37] <Amaranth> dbus->hal->usplash->gdm->acpi_support->laptop_mode->rc_local
[00:37] <jdong> Amaranth: named so because originally it hosted a very heavily patched madwifi for (cough) various purposes
[00:38] <jdong> Amaranth: well yeah I got lazy writing near the end :D
[00:38] <Amaranth> gotta be a bug in whatever you're using to generate this chart :P
[00:38] <Amaranth> ah, human power
[00:38] <jdong> Amaranth: I didn't think through all the dependencies
[00:38] <Amaranth> always a bug there
[00:38] <ubotu> Jordan_U called the ops in #ubuntu ()
[00:38] <jdong> Amaranth: http://jdong.mit.edu/~jdong/macbook/depchart/depchart.py that generates the chart
[00:38] <jdong> Amaranth: call it with the location to event.d :)
[00:38] <tonyyarusso> @btlogin
[00:38] <jdong> and it outputs a dotfile
[00:39] <Amaranth> interesting
[00:39] <Amaranth> let me know when you're "done", i wanna try this :)
[00:40] <Amaranth> i can add nvidia stuff myself and i don't need usplash for a 10 second boot :P
[00:42] <jdong> Amaranth: :D well one other person has tested my event.d.tar.gz and says it worked out of the box
[00:42] <jdong> and he had nvidia stuff too (yikes)
[00:43] <Amaranth> yeah, i thought lrm-video handled nvidia honestly
[00:43] <Amaranth> and X will load the module if it exists, no need to do it on boot
[00:45] <Amaranth> jdong: so do you have an updated version or is the one you gave me earlier still right?
[01:01] <jdong> Amaranth: the one I gave earlier is stilll the same
[01:01] <jdong> Amaranth: for comic relief: http://jdong.mit.edu/~jdong/macbook/depchart/sysv-dep.png
[01:01] <Amaranth> uh, hahahaha
[01:01] <jdong> Amaranth: a bit apples to oranges though, this was not generated on the same machine :D
[01:01] <jdong> but you get the picture
[01:02] <Amaranth> yeah
[01:02]  * jdong goes to generate it on the right machine for kicks
[01:02] <Amaranth> alright, going to go try this
[01:03]  * Amaranth gets scared
[01:03] <jdong> lol back up event.d first of course :D
[01:03] <Amaranth> brb (i hope)
[01:09] <jdong> uh oh, he's not back yet
[01:11] <Amaranth> jdong: so usplash was doing it's pulse thing when initramfs is running then it switched to a tty then X started about a second later
[01:11] <Amaranth> i'm guessing that's good?
[01:11] <Amaranth> but i got no output from bootchart
[01:12] <jdong> Amaranth: LOL
[01:12] <jdong> Amaranth: are you serious?!
[01:12] <Amaranth> yes
[01:12] <jdong> Amaranth: I don't believe you
[01:12] <jdong> Amaranth: you make me cry
[01:12] <Amaranth> although wallblock numbers say my boot took ~20 seconds to get to gdm
[01:12] <jdong> Amaranth: sweet
[01:12] <Amaranth> so i'm guessing i need to regenerate my readahead list
[01:12] <Amaranth> wallclock*
[01:12] <jdong> Amaranth: I'm not sure if the event.d I posted contains bootchart stop
[01:12] <Amaranth> oh :P
[01:12] <jdong> Amaranth: lol maybe I should generate an updated one :D
[01:13] <Amaranth> where should that go?
[01:13] <jdong> Amaranth: and I forgot S99rmnologin too so don't expect sshd to work by default :)
[01:13] <Amaranth> yeah, and i'm guessing i'll have to add my own entries for ipmasq and dhcp3-server :P
[01:13] <jdong> Amaranth: event.d, add a hook to call "/etc/init.d/stop-bootchart start"
[01:13] <Amaranth> my laptop shares its connection with the desktop next to me
[01:13] <jdong> Amaranth: as an example, look at how, say, gdm's wrapper in event.d was written
[01:14] <jdong> Amaranth: I'd say "start on started rc.local" would be an appropriate boot order for it
[01:14] <Amaranth> so if usplash was started sooner would it do something useful?
[01:14] <jdong> Amaranth: I'm not sure how usplash progress updates work :)
[01:14] <jdong> Amaranth: but starting usplash actually stops it :)
[01:15] <Amaranth> the init scripts have commands they use for LSB-compliant output that usplash hooks into
[01:15] <Amaranth> should stop-bootchart really be a service?
[01:16] <jdong> Amaranth: probably not :)
[01:16] <jdong> Amaranth: hmm my upstart jobs simply trigger init.d scripts one by one
[01:16] <jdong> Amaranth: so I'm probably bypassing whatever logic is used to update the progress bar?
[01:16] <Amaranth> no, it is stuff inside the initscripts that update that iirc
[01:17] <jdong> Amaranth: hmmm, then they should update :-/
[01:17] <Amaranth> wow calling stop-bootchart now was a bad idea
[01:17] <Amaranth> it's doing...something
[01:17] <jdong> Amaranth: did it generate a 500 second bootup? :D
[01:17] <Amaranth> it is still doing something
[01:18] <jdong> Amaranth: on the bright side it profiled your login sequence.
[01:18] <jdong> LOL
[01:18] <Amaranth> yay rsvg-convert 100% CPU
[01:18] <Amaranth> i hate you :P
[01:18] <Amaranth> i suppose the stuff to regenerate the readahead list won't work either
[01:18] <jdong> Amaranth: actually, same gotcha, I didn't put in the stop hook
[01:18] <Amaranth> bootlogd?
[01:19] <jdong> Amaranth: profile actually does work, and does hang boot in the right spot to prepare
[01:19] <jdong> Amaranth: but you need to sudo killall readahead-watch before logging in.
[01:19] <jdong> Amaranth: or while your'e at it, you can write a stop-readahead hook before stop-bootchart :)
[01:19] <Amaranth> and then it all works fine? :)
[01:19] <jdong> Amaranth: yup, I even used it today to regenerate readahead
[01:19] <Amaranth> stop-bootchart is still at it
[01:20] <jdong> Amaranth: lol I'm guessing bootchart was never designed to monitor so much :D
[01:20] <jdong> Amaranth: you can now even profile how long it took xchat to start!
[01:20] <Amaranth> yeah i'm guessing it takes awhile to convert a 10MB svg file to png
[01:21] <jdong> :)
[01:21] <Amaranth> it looks like it sat doing absolutely nothing for 10 seconds
[01:21] <Amaranth> usplash timeout or something?
[01:22] <Amaranth> so gdm didn't start until 25 seconds in
[01:23] <jdong> Amaranth: perhaps turn usplash off?
[01:23] <Amaranth> maybe
[01:23] <Amaranth> what's the bit to add to regenerate readahead?
[01:24] <jdong> Amaranth: profile
[01:24] <Amaranth> alright, back in a bit
[01:35] <Amaranth> jdong: so it still stalls for 10 seconds but then again it might have done that before too
[01:35] <Amaranth> boot was so slow before i didn't pay attention when it was booting
[01:35] <Amaranth> but even with that 10 second stall i've got 31 seconds to boot
[01:35] <jdong> Amaranth: not bad... I guess now the task is figuring out why it stals
[01:36] <Amaranth> max disk throughput: 47MB/s
[01:36] <jdong> Amaranth: HOLY CRAP!
[01:36] <Amaranth> i know, this is a laptop
[01:36] <jdong> I'm not talking to you anymore.
[01:36]  * jdong goes cry in his corner
[01:37] <Amaranth> i've seen SSDs get much worse scores for boots
[01:38] <mneptok> i gotta get me wunna them supersonic dingleberries
[01:38] <Amaranth> jdong: http://www.realistanew.com/random/hardy-20080317-3.png
[01:38] <jdong> Amaranth: whoa, you spend 10s in initramfs
[01:38] <Amaranth> oh, that's what that is?
[01:39] <Amaranth> i wonder why
[01:39] <Amaranth> how long do you spend in initramfs?
[01:39] <jdong> Amaranth: http://jdong.mit.edu/~jdong/macbook/hardy-upstart-defragged.png
[01:39] <jdong> less than 5s
[01:39] <Amaranth> damn
[01:39] <Amaranth> you did defrag?
[01:39] <jdong> Amaranth: not really.
[01:40] <jdong> Amaranth: though defrag only affects that readahead-list band
[01:40] <jdong> Amaranth: your biggest problem is that band before root gets mounted
[01:43] <Amaranth> yeah, gotta figure that one out
[01:43] <Amaranth> i'd like a 21s boot
[01:43] <Amaranth> probably lower if i defragged
[01:49] <jdong> Amaranth: should be entirely possible under your specs
[01:49] <Amaranth> yeah, i'll play again tomorrow
[01:49] <Amaranth> gotta go now
[01:50] <jdong> Amaranth: ok, one suggestion before you leave, modify all the udev stuff to start concurrently with readahead
[01:50] <jdong> (i.e. start on starting readahead)
[01:50] <jdong> it seems like parallelizing that in your case would result in a speedup
[01:58] <ubotu> HardyOne called the ops in #ubuntu+1 ()
[02:44] <ronandi> When I try to send msgs in #ubuntu, it says: "#ubuntu :Cannot send to channel". How long does this "ban" last, im pretty sure its been at least 14 hours since it was initiated? 
[02:47] <ronandi> When I try to send msgs in #ubuntu, it says: "#ubuntu :Cannot send to channel". How long does this "ban" last, im pretty sure its been at least 14 hours since it was initiated? 
[02:49] <LjL> ronandi: let me see
[02:51] <LjL> ronandi: uhm, i assume that was an accidental paste?
[02:51] <ronandi> yeah
[02:52] <ronandi> you mean the double msg yeah
[02:52] <ronandi> accidently disconnected and then did that
[02:52] <LjL> well no
[02:52] <LjL> you pasted a lot of lines about "Bob"
[02:52] <ronandi> huh
[02:52] <ronandi> oo
[02:52] <ronandi> before
[02:52] <ronandi> yeh
[02:52] <LjL> that is why you were muted
[02:53] <ronandi> copy and pasted from gaim by accident
[02:53] <LjL> ronandi: ok, mute removed, careful with that middle mouse button :P
[02:53] <mneptok> ronandi: oh come on.
[02:53] <LjL> mneptok: ...no?
[02:54] <mneptok> ronandi: your last line before you were banned - "2008-03-17T03:10:13 <ronandi> I had to share lol"
[02:54] <ronandi> LjL: thanks. mneptok: huh?
[02:54] <ronandi> well after it
[02:54] <LjL> ah uuuh
[02:54] <ronandi> I tried to let it go
[02:54] <ronandi> not get flamed
[02:54] <mneptok> ronandi: it wasn't an accident. that's OK, we all make mistakes. but don;t lie about it. :)
[02:54] <ronandi> lol... #db flames and bans instantly 
[02:55] <ronandi> thx for unmute
[02:55] <mneptok> ronandi: i personally don't see a problem with the ban being removed, as long as you know that pasting stuff like that is not welcome.
[02:56] <ronandi> if I didnt contact you guys though, would it have gone away after some time?
[02:56] <Pici> Not automatically.
[02:56] <LjL> was a mute, so probably after some days yes
[02:56] <ronandi> oh
[02:56] <LjL> ronandi, please check out this information on what is [not] acceptable in #ubuntu, so we have no "mistakes" next time
[02:56] <LjL> !etiquette > ronandi    (ronandi, see the private message from Ubotu)
[02:57] <ronandi> kk
[02:58] <LjL> naq arire fnl "xx" ntnva sbe tbbqarff fnxr
[03:05] <tonyyarusso> uh, what?
[03:05] <LjL> tonyyarusso: rot13
[03:05] <tonyyarusso> oh
[03:06] <LjL> ronandi, if you have no other questions for us, i should ask you to part this channel please
[03:09]  * mneptok hugs regurg
[03:59] <emma> Hello?
[03:59] <Hobbsee> hi there!
[03:59] <emma> Hi Hobbsee
[04:00] <tonyyarusso> Hey emma
[04:01] <emma> Hi tony
[04:01] <Hobbsee> heads up on dashua
[04:01]  * Hobbsee +q'd in +1
[04:07] <Hobbsee> emma: the final set of conditions is at http://hobbsee.com/ubotu/emma_conditions
[04:10] <emma> I've already spoken to PriceChild and others at various stages when the channel was made and I was told that it would not be a reason that I would be banned from #ubuntu channels.
[04:11] <Hobbsee> except for the fact that it became an ops slagging ground, a lot of the time.
[04:11] <Hobbsee> if it had *not* become that, then people would not be requiring you to change the name, i expect.
[04:12] <emma> Some times this channel has been an emma slagging ground. I don't hold you all accountable for that.
[04:12] <Hobbsee> emma: as you'll note, that's also part of the conditions - that that stops.
[04:13] <emma> Then I can agree to a condition that says I do not 'slag the ops' in that channel, and that I recommend others do not. That I discourage animosity to the ops in that channel is reasonable.
[04:15] <Hobbsee> the conditions are laid out.  take them or leave them.
[04:15] <Hobbsee> they've been extensively thought through.
[04:15] <emma> In all fairness the conditions are very harsh. Talking about k-lining me? When the reason I'm in here is because of a conversation where I mentioned a real corporation that really is doing the things I said they are doing, in a conversation with an op in -offtopic?
[04:16] <Hobbsee> you would be klined for spam for unsolicited queries regardless of which channels you were in on the freenode network.  it's a condition of freenode's network.
[04:16] <emma> also talking about banning me from other ubuntu channels when I've never done anything wrong in #ubuntu?
[04:17] <Hobbsee> whether you agree to this or not, that condition would still stand anyway.
[04:17] <emma> then take that all out of your 'conditions'
[04:17] <emma> that kind of speech just feels like intimidation
[04:17] <tonyyarusso> They would apply, and thus should be there.  It is a package deal.
[04:17] <emma> especially since I don't spam anyone and putting that in there feels like an accusation that I have or some kind of acknowledgment that I have.
[04:19] <emma>  Emma will not mention logging, irseek, or anything of that nature in #*ubuntu* channels again
[04:19] <emma> That's also not a fair condition
[04:19] <emma> to put that so black and white. There are probably many times in some channels where that is appropriate.
[04:20] <emma> I would like this to be posted in here.
[04:20] <emma> What you are asking from me
[04:20] <Hobbsee> so that it's logged?
[04:21] <emma> This is what they are telling me:
[04:21] <emma> Conditions list, as agreed upon by the IRC Council and Hobbsee:
[04:21] <emma>  * Ban lifted in -offtopic and -ops
[04:21] <emma>  * Emma apologizes to the irc ops team
[04:21] <emma>  * Emma complies with the rules
[04:21] <emma>  * Ops would not make public comments  which slander, or are derogatory about emma, in public channels.
[04:21] <emma>  * Emma will not make public comments which slander, or are derogatory about the ops, in public channels. 
[04:21] <emma>  * Emma will not mention logging, irseek, or anything of that nature in #*ubuntu* channels again
[04:21] <emma>  * Emma will not advertise the existence of her channels, (including ##ubuntu-uncensored, whatever it's renamed to, and ##linux+) in #*ubuntu* channels.
[04:21] <tonyyarusso> !pastebin
[04:21] <ubotu> pastebin is a service to post multiple-lined texts so you don't flood the channel. The Ubuntu pastebin is at http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org (make sure you give us the URL for your paste - see also the channel topic)
[04:21] <emma>  * ##ubuntu-uncensored changes name to be something that does not contain the word 'ubuntu' in it.  The irc ops would like to note that while this is not against freenode policy (due to the ##), the irc ops feel that the channel has been harmful to the ubuntu community, and therefore request the name change, as a condition to participating freely in the official ubuntu channels.
[04:21] <emma>  *  ##ubuntu-uncensored may forward to a new channel for two weeks to allow users to adjust, and then will be locked by nalioth, a freenode staffer.
[04:21] <Hobbsee> tonyyarusso: that'll change too
[04:21] <emma>  * Emma will not attempt to find loopholes in these conditions, and exploit them.
[04:21] <emma>  * Emma will not send unsolicited private messages to members of #*ubuntu* channels.  (this is covered in freenode policy, and is a klineable offense.  If such reports reach the irc ops team, the irc ops team are obliged to report them to freenode staff.
[04:21] <emma>  * irc ops team will respect Emma's right to have her own channel when it does not suggest Ubuntu affiliation. 
[04:21] <emma> If Emma breaks these rules, she will be banned from all #*ubuntu* based channels (or klined, in the case of spam, in accordance with Freenode policy)
[04:21] <emma> I'm sorry I didn't know there was one for here.
[04:21] <tonyyarusso> nvm, Hobbsee has a point anyway.  Carry on.
[04:22] <Hobbsee> tonyyarusso: it's a valid request, yes, as this log won't be tampered with, whereas an external source can.
[04:22] <tonyyarusso> right
[04:22] <Hobbsee> (so ignore the flood part)
[04:22] <emma> And I want some of these other ops to see this. I want to speak to PriceChild
[04:23] <Hobbsee> he's in norway.  but he is connected.
[04:23] <Hobbsee> if you like, you can wait till he comes back, or sees irc, have him input, and then agree after that.
[04:23] <Hobbsee> of course, that will mean that the current quiet in -offtopic stands, and won't be changed.
[04:23] <emma> I think that some of you would like the name of my channel changed. 
[04:23] <emma> I understand that.
[04:24] <emma> I am in a business in my professional life where negotiating is part of my job.
[04:24] <emma> You are putting down a list of conditions that in some ways are non-starters and showing no indication of any flexibility on any of it?
[04:25] <emma> I want to be able to give you what you want. And things like the channel name changing are possibilities that should not be removed from the table.
[04:25] <emma> But when you push so hard that you leave no room at all then that is counter productive for both of us.
[04:25] <Hobbsee> you gave me a list of what you would find acceptable.  they were based off that.
[04:26] <Hobbsee> it's actually *more* fair than it was originally.
[04:26] <emma> A revised list of conditions would be a really good idea and a very good sign of good faith, and then after we re-established a good report then we could very well talk about the other things that you want. 
[04:26] <Hobbsee> to some degree, you have lost the room to negotiate, due to past actions.
[04:26] <tonyyarusso> This is the revised list.  As stated, they are take it or leave it.
[04:27] <emma> I am a partner that can be worked with. But you must know by now that I respond to the perception of being forced with extra-resolve.
[04:27] <emma> But what about what you want?
[04:27] <Hobbsee> you're not being forced.  you have a choice to take it as given, or to leave it.
[04:27] <Hobbsee> we're not forcing you to take it.
[04:27] <Hobbsee> nor are we particularly saying that you should.
[04:28] <emma> Some of those things in there are not fair or reasonable. And elkbuntu is already on this log saying she is in favor of me having voice back.
[04:28] <emma> Hobbsee you are on this log saying that you think my appeal is good.
[04:28] <Hobbsee> just that these are the conditions, if you do decide that you do want to be able to talk in -offtopic
[04:28] <Hobbsee> emma: elkbuntu and i both had a lot of input into those conditions.
[04:28] <emma> She said in here that she is okay with me having voice.
[04:28] <tonyyarusso> IF you agree to these.
[04:29] <emma> She did not say that to me.
[04:29] <emma> That is not what she said on this log.
[04:29] <emma> You said that your conditions are based on what I said to you in pm HObbsee
[04:29] <tonyyarusso> Then feel free to wait for her to get home from work and clarify for you.
[04:29] <emma> I am willing to agree to what I said to you in PM
[04:29] <Hobbsee> i took what you said to the ops, and they decided that it was not enough.
[04:29] <emma> The other stuff was brought up as an afterthought by tonyyarusso after you asked me to come in here.
[04:30] <Hobbsee> as it is, i suggest you wait a while, think on it, wait for elkbuntu, (and wait for PriceChild if you wish), before giving your opinion.
[04:31] <emma> I am not going to change the name of the channel as long as I feel I am being strong armed. 
[04:31] <Hobbsee> then you will nto be able to speak in #ubuntu-offtopic.
[04:32] <Hobbsee> i'ts your choice.
[04:35] <emma> Can I reasonably expect that as long as I abide by the rules as they apply to everyone else, there will be no further punitive measures taken against me, such as banning me from #ubuntu-women, or #ubuntu ?
[04:36] <Hobbsee> that would be fair, yes.
[04:38] <mneptok> wait ...
[04:38] <mneptok> there is some behavior we would tolerate from others, but not you.
[04:38] <mneptok> e.g. discussion of IRSeek
[04:39] <mneptok> e.g. long conversations about policy changes in public channels
[04:39] <mneptok> sadly, your past behavior has led to having to place limits on your future behavior.
[04:40] <Hobbsee> mneptok: in #ubuntu and such, that would class as -offtopic
[04:40] <mneptok> so, "the rules as they apply to everyone else" is not accurate
[04:40] <Hobbsee> mneptok: #u-w would probably aslo use !o4o as well, i expect.
[04:40] <Hobbsee> mneptok: which includes propaganda
[04:40] <mneptok> Hobbsee: as you know, i know nothing of #u-w
[04:41] <Hobbsee> mneptok: i'm fiarly sure they do.
[04:41] <Hobbsee> mneptok: afaik, they don't do politics, etc.
[04:42] <Hobbsee> mneptok: anything support based, she'll get hit with !offtopic.  anything offtopic follows !o4o, afaik.
[04:42] <Hobbsee> mneptok: so i'd say that it's still valid.
[04:44] <mneptok> emma: ennyhoo, you know what i'm getting at. you have beat the drum on some issues so loudly that your particular drum is not welcome in public channels any more. those guidelines reflect that. and that does mean that your treatment is different from other users' treatment.
[04:46]  * mneptok taps the mic
[04:46] <mneptok> is this thing on?
[04:47] <Hobbsee> apparently not
[04:47] <emma> For the time being, I would simply like some reasonable assurance (if it is possible) that assuming I do not do something uncalled for (which I have shown no tendency to do) that I will not be subject to any thing vindictive in other #ubuntu- channels.
[04:48]  * Hobbsee already agreed to that.
[04:48] <mneptok> emma: repeatedly bringing up IRSeek after *many* requests to stop is uncalled for.
[04:50] <mneptok> emma: you have snidely commented on my behavior being some sort of prototypical bad behavior. to paraphrase, "this guy is why no one likes ops." you have done the same to other people. that's always uncalled for.
[04:50] <emma> Hobbsee -- I appreciate that very much. That means a great deal.
[04:51] <mneptok> *sigh*
[04:51] <Hobbsee> mneptok: irseek == offtopic.  it's also propaganda.
[04:51] <emma> mneptok - I would like to say that you are correct that my particular comment directed at you was not productive.
[04:51] <Hobbsee> (when talking extensively about it)
[04:51] <Hobbsee> heading off propaganda is alos allowed, when it starts.
[04:52] <emma> I think that I can agree to the spirit of "Stop beating the drum about IRSeek in #ubuntu-* channels. 
[04:52] <mneptok> emma: i'm not asking for an apology, but just that you think about seeing from my chair your claim no tendency to uncalled-for behavior.
[04:52] <mneptok> s/claim/claim\ of/
[04:52] <emma> I can even agree to something like, "When talking about logging, or other things, and asked by an op to stop, please do so"
[04:53] <emma> mneptok - I think that seeing things from others perspectives is very healthy and I agree with you about that.
[04:53] <mneptok> emma: just remove "about logging, or other things," and you got the idea
[04:54] <emma> I think we could remove those words and that would be a much more reasonable list of conditions.
[04:54] <mneptok> emma: just drop topics whenever an op asks, and bring it here
[04:54] <mneptok> emma: things get less bumpy when you comply publicly, and kvetch in here.
[06:25]  * Myrtti reads the backlog
[06:36] <Myrtti> hm
[06:36] <Myrtti> good morning
[06:36] <Tm_T> Myrtti: morning :)
[06:36] <nickrud> good midnight to all 
[08:04]  * jussi01 hugs Jucato 
[08:04] <Jucato> heh :)
[08:04] <jussi01> and sighs at #k
[08:04] <Jucato> I guess he needs a definition of terms :)
[08:04] <jussi01> poor guy
[08:04] <jussi01> yeah
[08:09]  * Jucato hugs Jucato
[08:09] <Jucato> er.. I meant jussi01
[08:10] <jussi01> lol
[08:12] <jussi01> yippee, just made a successful conversion to my new home
[08:12] <Jucato> new real life home or $HOME?
[08:12] <jussi01> $HOME
[08:12] <Jucato> aaah :)
[08:13] <jussi01> I moved fromthe work server, which I didnt want to be on, for fear of breakage, to a server of a friend
[08:13] <jussi01> :)
[08:13] <Jucato> heheh
[08:13] <Jucato> you don't fear breaking your friend's :P
[08:14] <jussi01> I dont have sudo acces on it...
[08:14] <jussi01> :D
[08:14] <Jucato> lol
[08:23] <Jucato> did he really get it? I'm not sure :/
[08:26]  * jussi01 hopes...
[08:40]  * jpatrick looks at the pingage carnage he has from last night
[11:34] <Jucato> !ping
[11:35] <Jucato> ubotu is lagging again?
[11:35] <ubotu> ping yourself ;-) really the diodes all down my left side are sore
[11:35] <Jucato> :)
[11:39] <Hobbsee> nalioth: spam: [22:33] <Aishiko> 18:00:10> http://www.tor-forge.com/articles/666/media/114.jpg  check it out! you could win a chance to get an phone call from a dead author!
[11:48] <Mez> why does the nick Aishiko ring a bell?
[12:10] <jpatrick> Mez: that people have to be given this thing by force flooder?
[12:11] <Mez> jpatrick, ??
[12:11] <jpatrick> nevermind
[12:11] <jpatrick> Hobbsee: -motu
[12:11] <jpatrick> Hobbsee: now he's learnt he's got ops :)
[12:12] <Hobbsee> jpatrick: why does he have them?
[12:12] <jpatrick> Hobbsee: pm?
[12:12] <Hobbsee> sure
[12:24] <jpatrick> Spiky: ??
[12:25] <Hobbsee> .
[12:30]  * Hobbsee looks for a staffer
[12:30] <Tm_T> not me
[12:30] <Hobbsee> Dave2: you around?
[12:30] <jpatrick> Hobbsee: !sfatt?
[12:31] <jpatrick> err
[12:31] <Dave2> I sort of am now
[12:31] <Hobbsee> jpatrick: looks like there's a 12 second idler.  i could use that, but it's not urgent
[12:31] <jpatrick> Dave2: we need to /cs level #ubuntu-motu reset
[12:32] <jpatrick> as: "0     CMDOP     Use of command OP"
[12:32] <Hobbsee> (and i'd like to be the alternate channel contact please)
[12:32] <Dave2> ...so I see
[12:32] <Hobbsee> sladen gave it away long ago
[12:33] <Hobbsee> when i last spoke to him, he had no interest in ops stuff
[12:34] <Dave2> You'll need to get an Ubuntu GC to poke me to get that done, unfortunately. (At least now that doesn't involve waiting around for Seveas.)
[12:34] <Hobbsee> Dave2: grumble.  elkbuntu, you here?
[12:34]  * Hobbsee needs to get on the GC list, apparently.
[12:38] <jpatrick> Hobbsee: might want to turn secureops off now
[12:38] <Hobbsee> why?
[12:38] <jpatrick> good question..
[13:53] <PriceChild> I'm here.
[13:54] <jpatrick> afternoon PriceChild 
[13:54] <Hobbsee> hey PriceChild!
[13:54] <Hobbsee> emma: changed "logging" to "irc logging", so it doesnt' cover system logs, etc.
[13:55] <Hobbsee> and we also need a definitino of spam, it appears
[13:55] <PriceChild> no chance
[13:55] <PriceChild> we've already got use your common sense
[13:55] <Hobbsee> PriceChild: see /query
[13:55] <Hobbsee> PriceChild: you've been away for a while :)
[13:56] <PriceChild> so it seems.
[13:57]  * Mez wonders who emma is
[13:58] <jpatrick> Mez: /whois emma
[13:58] <Hobbsee> Mez: owner of ##ubuntu-uncensored.  you've been hiding under a rock, or have been ignoring everything about irseek.
[13:58] <Hobbsee> Mez: she now has a list of conditions to agree to, if she wants to return to #ubuntu-offtopic and be able to speak, documented at http://hobbsee.com/ubotu/emma_conditions
[13:58] <Mez> Hobbsee, I didnt see much on the ML
[13:59] <Hobbsee> Mez: hasn't been on the ML
[13:59] <Hobbsee> Mez: it's been on irc, etc
[13:59] <jpatrick> Mez: this channel :)
[13:59] <Mez> Probs during my non-work hours
[14:03] <jpatrick> Hobbsee: good conditions
[14:03] <Hobbsee> jpatrick: i thought so, but emma doesn't agree, i'm afraid.
[14:04] <Hobbsee> jpatrick: maybe after more time, she will.
[14:04] <jpatrick> Hobbsee: which doesn't she like?
[14:04] <Hobbsee> jpatrick: see the logs from earlier today
[14:04]  * jpatrick puts yakuake in full screen
[14:04] <Hobbsee> (there were multiple objections, and it's probably easier to reread the log than to summarise)
[14:05] <jpatrick> err, nevermind
[14:05] <Hobbsee> she's spoken about wanting to put a set of conditions herself up for the irc ops to agree to.  If they are in the interests of ubuntu and the irc op team, then we may go with that set instead.  Of course, that will be by our decision.
[14:12] <jpatrick> hi SportChick 
[14:13] <Hobbsee> heya SportChick!
[14:13] <jussio1> Hullo SportChick
[14:14] <jpatrick> jussio1: I thought you said it was Hullu
[14:14] <jussio1> jpatrick: now now...
[14:14] <jussio1> I wouldnt call a member of staff crazy
[14:14] <Myrtti> erm?
[14:15]  * jussio1 slaps jpatrick"bad boy"!
[14:15] <jussio1> Myrtti: I was teaching him some finnish
[14:15] <jussio1> sigh...
[14:15] <jpatrick> :)
[14:15] <Myrtti> jpatrick: hullo != hullu
[14:15] <Myrtti> doh
[14:16] <Myrtti> just like pika and piika mean totally different things
[14:16] <jussio1> heheehehehhe
[14:16] <Myrtti> or sika and siika
[14:16] <Myrtti> etc.
[14:34] <jdong> Picipod_: what's a picipod? Does it have a multitouch display?
[14:34] <jdong> (wow there was an innuendo in t hat)
[14:36] <jussio1> jdong: you could find innuendo in anything
[14:42]  * Jucato wonders if jdong finds innuendo in jussio1 and jussi01
[14:42] <jdong> Jucato: I don't think jussio1 swings that way...
[14:42]  * Jucato doesn't know :P
[14:43] <jussio1> lol, of course he does
[14:43] <jdong> lol
[14:43] <Jucato> swinging sideways is patented, btw :)
[14:45] <Jucato> http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsrchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=6,368,227.PN.&OS=PN/6,368,227&RS=PN/6,368,227
[14:45] <Jucato> wow long URL :)
[15:07] <SportChick> any objections to +u-ing pleia2?
[15:08] <SportChick> eek, mt
[15:08] <jdong> Jucato: that was the most painfully technical description of swinging I've ever read.
[15:08] <Jucato> jdong: lovely ain't it? :)
[15:08] <jpatrick> SportChick: can you do something for me? (channel renaming?)
[15:09] <SportChick> jpatrick: channels can't be renamed
[15:09] <Jucato> there's a price to be paid :)
[15:09]  * Jucato rubs hands greedily
[15:09] <jpatrick> SportChick: not even #Kubuntu-es to #kubuntu-es?
[15:10] <jdong> we need to come up with like IRC Points
[15:10] <jdong> like brownie points
[15:10] <jdong> only with stamps of various IRC Council members worth different amounts of points :)
[15:10] <jdong> and people can redeem them for unbans, unmutes, etc :D
[15:10] <jpatrick> jdong: @load Karma
[15:12] <Mez> jdong, the thing is, that that seems that swinging on a swing, your facing forward,a nd expect to be going forward... but that description makes you go side to side.
[15:13] <Pici> A side-to-side swing, how revolutionary.
[15:13] <Mez> not as fun...
[15:13] <jdong> Mez: I'm surprised there wasn't a proof that the swing would not end up in an unstable perpendicular oscillation
[15:13] <Mez> lol
[15:13] <jdong> Mez: last term in diffeq I had to model that scenario for homework
[15:13] <jdong> Mez: what happens when the cable twists so much that it loses tension
[15:14] <nalioth> jpatrick: we can't rename channels  :(
[15:14] <jdong> see? Math is illegal.
[15:14] <Mez> jdong, I dont know - I dont care
[15:14] <LjL> jpatrick, err, channel names are case insensitive...?
[15:14] <jpatrick> nalioth: aww, now the bot will never know the diff between @ops-#kubuntu-es and @ops-#Kubuntu-es
[15:15] <Mez> LjL, technically, yes.
[15:15] <jpatrick> LjL: for some reason it affects botijo
[15:15] <Pici> LjL: yes, but the ircd preserves your choice of capitalization when it announces a user join message.
[15:15] <LjL> jpatrick, uhm, i don't see why
[15:15] <Mez> however - if the first user to join the channel joins #cHaNnEl - then it gets preserved with that case by the ircd
[15:15] <LjL> Pici: yes that's true, and chanserv also has it with a "K", but that should be it afaik
[15:15] <jpatrick> LjL: ubotu makes all facts lowercase
[15:16] <LjL> Mez, but preserved where? as pici said, commands from people are shown with the capitalization *they* used
[15:16] <jpatrick> !CHEESEITS
[15:16] <ubotu> Sorry, I don't know anything about cheeseits - try searching on http://ubotu.ubuntu-nl.org/factoids.cgi
[15:16] <jpatrick> LjL: see^
[15:16] <Mez> LjL, preserved on join messages, etc etc
[15:16] <LjL> jpatrick: yes but i still can't see the problem with that
[15:16] <jpatrick> LjL: cos it's in #Kubuntu-es and the fact for it is #kubuntu-es
[15:17] <Mez> LjL, 
[15:17] <Mez> >lethargy< join #cHaNnEl
[15:17] <Mez> * [Lethargy] (lethargy@vBFans-F364B0B8.vbirc.com): lethargy
[15:17] <Mez> * [Lethargy] @#cHaNnEl 
[15:17] <LjL> Mez, no: :LjL!n=ljl@ubuntu/member/ljl JOIN :##LJL
[15:17] <LjL> just because i typed it as ##LJL
[15:17] <LjL> otherwise it would have been ##ljl
[15:17] <Mez> /join #channel
[15:17] <Mez> * Now talking on #cHaNnEl
[15:18] <LjL> Mez: yes indeed, so it depends on the user's choice
[15:18] <LjL> jpatrick: then tell it to join #kubuntu-es and not #Kubuntu-es
[15:18] <jpatrick> LjL: and TiMiDo registered it as #Kubuntu-es
[15:18] <jpatrick> LjL: I have, many imtes
[15:18] <jpatrick> times*
[15:18] <Mez> but when the channel is CREATED then capitalisation is udes.
[15:18] <Mez> The way to change the capitalisation of a channel is to get everyone to leave, drop the channel with chanserv
[15:18] <Mez> rejoin it with the new capitalisation, and re-register it
[15:19] <jpatrick> Mez: not contact, can't
[15:19] <LjL> Mez: yes but i'm saying, i don't see how the bot would be affected. when i join a channel, *everything* (topic, /names, etc) is shown with the capitalization *i* decided to use on join
[15:19] <Mez> But that's how IRC works. It uses the capitalisation as created by the channel creator
[15:19] <jpatrick> LjL: /cs info #kubuntu-es
[15:19] <Mez> LjL, /join #channel and tell me what the channel message is
[15:20] <LjL> jpatrick: yes, it's K in chanserv, i know, but why would the bot look at chanserv?
[15:20] <jpatrick> LjL: no clue
[15:20] <Mez> LjL, when the bot joins the channel, it recieves it as #Kubuntu-*
[15:20] <nalioth> jpatrick: yours would be the first case-sensitive bot i've heard of
[15:20] <LjL> Mez: http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/60039/
[15:20] <Mez> whatever the channel created was
[15:21] <jpatrick> LjL: /msg botijo %config networks.freenode.channels
[15:21] <Mez> LjL, now try #channel
[15:21] <LjL> ok, the /names is lowercase, i missed that
[15:21] <LjL> JOIN #channel
[15:21] <LjL> :ljl8!n=ljl@213-140-17-103.ip.fastwebnet.it JOIN :#channel
[15:21] <LjL> :kubrick.freenode.net 353 ljl8 = #cHaNnEl :ljl8 Mez
[15:21] <LjL> :kubrick.freenode.net 366 ljl8 #channel :End of /NAMES list.
[15:21] <Mez> LJL, the reason that pastebin shows is that you are the only person in there
[15:21] <LjL> Mez: no, there is ubotwo and a clone of mine in there
[15:21] <Mez> so when you leave, it's being destroyed and recreated
[15:21] <LjL> (and chanserv)
[15:22] <LjL> jpatrick: it's got it with "k"
[15:22] <jpatrick> LjL: and it still sees it with "K"
[15:22] <Mez> LjL, it depends on whether the commands are a direct response to what you sent or whether it's from the IRC servers stuff
[15:23] <Mez> but the server keeps it with a "K"
[15:24] <LjL> jpatrick, if we rename the channel, that will involve making everyone part
[15:24] <Mez> LjL, trust me - I did a study of a lot of this stuff a while back :D
[15:24] <jpatrick> LjL: ...or /kick
[15:24] <LjL> jpatrick: whatever, anyway it'll be somewhat invasive
[15:25] <Mez> jpatrick, with the help of a staffer... they can do a chanwipe
[15:25] <Mez> (or should be able to)
[15:25] <jpatrick> LjL: yeah..
[15:25] <LjL> Mez: not the problem...
[15:25] <nalioth> jpatrick: why would you want to trouble users for a bot you should be able to configure ?
[15:25] <jpatrick> nalioth: I don't want it, they do for @ops :)
[15:25] <LjL> nalioth, well it's just seveas' bot, i think the problem would be there for ubotu too
[15:26] <LjL> actually let's just try
[15:26] <nalioth> if it's a supybot, i have no idea why it won't work
[15:26] <ubotu> LjL called the ops in #Kubuntu-es ()
[15:26]  * jpatrick neither
[15:26] <nalioth> mine joins channels from a list in the config
[15:26] <LjL> yes, the problem is there with ubotu too
[15:26]  * nalioth senses much ado over nothing
[15:26] <LjL> (i have created !ops-#kubuntu-es meanwhile)
[15:27] <Mez> nalioth, cause the encyclopedia plugin doesnt allow case sensitive channel names
[15:27] <Mez> but when matching, doesnt do a strtolower (or python equiv) to match
[15:27] <nalioth> alrighty then
[15:28] <LjL> anyway it's a bug in the code
[15:28] <LjL> let me see if we can just fix it
[15:28] <Mez> so when the server sends PRIVMSG :#Kubuntu-es bla bla
[15:28] <Mez> supybot tries to match in the database x-Kubuntu-es
[15:28] <Mez> which doesnt exist as it makes it lowercase when putting it into the DB
[15:28] <Mez> :D
[15:34] <LjL> jpatrick: should be fixed
[15:36] <LjL> jpatrick: in "def get_factoids", change lines 4 and 5 into
[15:36] <LjL>         factoids.channel_primary   = self.get_single_factoid(channel, name + '-' + channel.lower())
[15:36] <LjL>         factoids.channel_secondary = self.get_single_factoid(channel, name + '-' + channel.lower() + '-also')
[16:54] <jpatrick> LjL: ping
[16:54] <LjL> pung
[16:55] <jpatrick> LjL: from -locoteams: < nepbabu> is it possible to get ubotu in #ubuntu-np?
[16:56] <LjL> jpatrick: i'll put ubotwo for the time being, ask seveas later
[16:57] <jussio1> oh great, we got that weird question bot in #ubuntuforums (nick = retarded)
[16:57] <jpatrick> jussio1: oh lord, no
[16:57] <jussio1> leastways it looks like that
[16:58]  * jpatrick emergency mode => on
[16:58] <jpatrick> jussio1: that's the network troll of DOOM
[16:58] <jpatrick> jussio1: /whois him
[16:59] <jussio1> jpatrick: bleh
[17:00] <Pici> He deserves a kline imho
[17:00] <Pici> I banned him from +1 yesterday.
[17:00] <jpatrick> Pici: he has, ~7 times
[17:01] <jussio1> hmm, any of the lovely staff around wish to issue a k-ticket? :)
[17:03] <ubotu> Mez called the ops in #ubuntuforums ()
[17:04] <jpatrick> !staff | retarted - kline evader
[17:04] <ubotu> retarted - kline evader: Hey nalioth, jenda, rob, SportChick, seanw, Dave2, Christel or Gary,  I could use a bit of your time :)
[17:04] <no0tic> jpatrick, !staff needs to be updated :)
 ... not retarted
[17:05] <jussio1> no0tic: who is missing?
[17:05] <SportChick> who was he before, mez?
[17:05] <vorian> SportChick: I just kicked him from #ubuntuforums
[17:05] <Mez> jpatrick, you said he was a kline evader?
[17:05] <no0tic> jussio1, PriceChild and vorian, afaik
[17:05] <ubotu> soundray called the ops in #ubuntu (TheStorey abusive)
[17:06] <jpatrick> Mez: yes, I've dealt with him several times
[17:06] <ubotu> xq called the ops in #ubuntu (TheStorey abusive)
[17:06] <jpatrick> Mez: in #kubuntu, #kde, #k-ot, #....
[17:06] <nalioth> jpatrick: he was klined?
[17:06] <jpatrick> nalioth: yeah
[17:06] <jussio1> no0tic: I didnt know they were freenode staff?
[17:06]  * jpatrick can't remember who did it..
[17:07] <jpatrick> nalioth: ah, yes, Dave2 
[17:07] <nalioth> guys, this has got to stop
[17:07] <nalioth> this 'ban on first offense' crap
[17:07] <nalioth> we are supposed to be "linux for human beings" and we're turning #ubuntu into EFNET
[17:07] <no0tic> jussio1, yes they are since few days
[17:08] <nalioth> freenode offers several features to help with channel management, such as /remove and /quiet
[17:08] <nalioth> if you don't recognize someone as a 'repeate offender', why not just /remove them and send them an appropriate factoid at the least?
[17:09] <Mez> nalioth, quiet does what exactly ?
[17:10] <Mez> oh, mutes :D
[17:10] <nalioth> did you know that #ubuntu has maxed out an extended ban list on multiple occasions?
[17:11] <nalioth> we are using the ban hammer FAR TOO MUCH and we're not removing them daily/regularly
[17:11] <nalioth> bans are not 'fire and forget"
[17:11] <Dave2> I don't believe I K:lined retarded.
[17:11] <jpatrick> Dave2: he changes nicks
[17:11] <jpatrick> @btlogin
[17:12] <Pici> jpatrick: klines are recorded in the tracker.
[17:12] <Pici> s/are/are not/
[17:12] <jpatrick> Pici: bans are, I can check his host
[17:12] <Mez> Pici, but the ban will be 
[17:12] <nalioth> yes, retarded was banned but not klined
[17:13] <Pici> nalioth: I've made a note to myself *again* to try not to be so fast with the bans.  Sometimes my fingers work faster than my brain does.
[17:14] <Mez> Pici, do you use chanserv.py ?
[17:14] <Pici> Mez: no
[17:14] <Mez> Pici, ah - fair enough
[17:14] <Mez> well, its easier just to /remove
[17:15] <Mez> than to /remove and ban
[17:15] <Pici> /cskb nick   does all the opping, removing and banning
[17:15] <jussio1> nalioth: I have a feeling <retarded> was formerly known as romeo1 at one stage IIRC
[17:16] <Mez> Pici, just take off the b ? :P
[17:16] <nalioth> Pici: an /ar hurts nothing and gives you time to think about a) talking to the person ( catalyzing / educating ) or b) sending an appropriate factoid
[17:23] <Mez> @btlogin
[17:26] <Mez> Seveas, are the ban(s) on ST47 still needed?
[17:28] <ubotu> seisen called the ops in #ubuntuforums (retarted)
[17:28] <jpatrick> ...
[17:33] <jdong> I forwarded retarded into here for you guys. Enjoy *goes off to class*
[17:33] <Pici> jdong: thanks!
[17:34] <jpatrick> from ##linux: http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/60052/
[17:34] <jdong> I wonder if people have better things to do than reset their cable modems constantly to get new IPS
[17:34] <Pici> jpatrick: I've seen him do the same thing in #defocus
[18:01] <Seveas> Mez, if you think they can be gone, feel fre
[18:01] <Seveas> e
[18:05] <seisen> can I get my ubuntu member cloak back?
[18:06] <jpatrick> seisen: launchpad page?
[18:07] <seisen> https://launchpad.net/~seisen
[18:08] <jpatrick> seisen: ok, you'll have to wait till a member of staff comes by
[18:09] <seisen> alright \
[18:09] <jpatrick> LjL: ubotu is now in -np :)
[18:20] <Dave2> \win 142
[18:20]  * Dave2 stabs compose.
[18:20] <jpatrick> seisen: oh, have you set up your nick as per: http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#nicksetup ?
[18:23] <seisen> it was before then I did something stupid and lost the cloak
[18:28] <Pici> seisen: Did your memership come up for renewal and lapse? I wondering because it seems you were removed from the ubuntu-cloaked-members group?  Just wondering, I dont have the power to change anything./
[18:29] <seisen> no I got on the #windows channel and did something stupid things a while back
[18:30] <seisen> so they pulled my cloak
[18:30] <seisen> Pricechild knows about it
[18:30] <Pici> Ah.
[18:30] <Pici> Okay.
[18:32] <jpatrick> seisen: remember, cloaks are a privilege
[18:33] <seisen> i know 
[18:33] <Pici> You'll have to wait for an IRC council member to show up.  /me wanders off
[18:33] <jpatrick> cya later Pici 
[18:34]  * Pici isnt going far ;)
[18:34] <seisen> ok
[19:10] <jpatrick> evening ompaul 
[19:10] <ompaul> eveninks
[20:28] <jpatrick> elkbuntu: ping - please take a look at https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/loco-contacts/2008-March/002053.html when you get back..
[20:49] <Myrtti> gnite kids
[20:50] <Seeker`> nn
[20:51] <jpatrick> night Myrtti 
[21:07]  * jussio1 is heading to bed. night!
[21:20]  * jpatrick wonders what ubotu2 is doing
[21:20] <no0tic> dondu from #ubuntu spams in pm
[21:21] <jpatrick> no0tic: nothing here
[21:29] <Seveas> jpatrick, ubotu2 isn't doing much :)
[21:29] <Seveas> I'm just kicking it in the butt a few times
[21:34] <jpatrick> Seveas: roger
[21:56] <LjL> start of https://help.ubuntu.com/community/K3BHowto : "K3B is quite likely the best CD/DVD burning program in Linux."
[21:56] <LjL> big *SIGH*, /me goes edit
[21:56] <jpatrick> it's so true..
[21:57] <LjL> oh ssh
[21:58] <jpatrick> LjL: -es-ops
[21:58] <LjL> jpatrick, not a particularly important issue imho...
[21:58] <jpatrick> ;)
[22:02] <LjL> Ireclan, can you show us the message that was sent?
[22:02] <Ireclan> Sure. It wasn't offensive, but it is kinda suspicious.
[22:02] <LjL> (Ireclan complained in #ubuntu-offtopic that "emma" had sent him unsolicited PM)
[22:02] <Pici> (ah)
[22:02] <jpatrick> (pastebin maybe?)
[22:03] <LjL> i'm sure we can take it here
[22:03] <Ireclan> Mar 18 16:55:20 <emma>	hi, is it okay if I pm you?
[22:03] <jpatrick> bit too late for that question no?
[22:03] <Ireclan> That was it. I just assumed that she might be a spam bot.
[22:04] <Ireclan> Since I don't frequent here anymore.
[22:04] <LjL> Ireclan: well, seems suspicious when someone just messages you out of the blue, i agree
[22:04] <LjL> Ireclan: thanks for informing us
[22:04] <Ireclan> Welcome.
[22:05] <LjL> emma, by the way, are you here because you have some question currently for us?
[22:06] <emma> Hi. I think last night I was asked to come in here. Or rather very early in the morning for me.
[22:07] <LjL> emma: must have been the australians then, you should probably check back in a couple of hours if you're still awake
[22:07] <emma> It's going to be hard for me, i've been up so very late so many nights because of things like this.
[22:07] <emma> I was hoping to maybe speak to PriceChild I think.
[22:08] <Pici> Hes on vacation(holiday) right now.
[22:08] <emma> I see. 
[22:08] <jpatrick> Norway!
[22:08] <Pici> Yes, there.
[22:08] <emma> Also, I'm not sure if this matters but I was pming Ireclan because I'm part Irish and it was recently Saint Patricks day.
[22:08] <LjL> emma, sorry if i'm going to sound like a broken record, but while the incident above just reads like an innocent question ("can i PM you?" - although, good counterpoint: you have already)...
[22:09] <LjL> are you PM'ing people randomly? because we can't be keeping getting these reports just because all the people you happen to message are paranoids or something
[22:09] <emma> Absolutely not.
[22:10] <LjL> emma: well, it must be perceived as somewhat random by some, or they wouldn't contact us about it, don't you think?
[22:11] <emma> Im not sure what to tell you about perceptions versus reality and all the possible permutations of that.
[22:11] <emma> I've never pmed anyone randomly. 
[22:12] <emma> I can understand maybe, if you are a certain kind of person, maybe more introverted (nothing wrong with that of course) you might feel like a social pm from someone who isn't a close friend is random. Not sure though. But I am sure that I have never pmed anyone who did not indicate that they were interesting in talking to me. I would never do that. 
[22:14] <LjL> emma, ireclan seemed to be saying he had no idea who you might be.
[22:14] <emma> Yeah we are not friends, but i thought his nick was cool since it sounds Irish. And I've been thinking about my Irish roots (given Saint Pats and all)
[22:15] <ubotu> In #ubuntu, grunt said: ubotu, what is your purpose?
[22:15] <LjL> emma: ah, that's your idea of "not PM'ing anyone who did not *indicate* that they were interested in talking to you"?
[22:15] <mneptok> emma: i think PMing someone because their nick sounds Irish qualifies as "randomly"
[22:15] <LjL> emma, it's not a vision many would share, i feel.
[22:16] <emma> Fair enough. I've gotten pms from ubuntu ops that I didn't ask for. I am not upset by that. It's important for you to understand that I simply do not carry on a conversation with anyone, or bother anyone unless they express an interest in speaking to me.
[22:17] <emma> I think you guys are worried about spam yes?
[22:17] <LjL> emma, "spam" might sound like too narrow a term.
[22:18] <emma> Well with all due respect (and it is respect) there is becoming a pattern here of setting a standard or a meaning of terms, and then changing them repeatedly whenever it is convenient to make life difficult for me.
[22:19] <emma> Let me give you an example:
[22:19] <Seveas> unsollicited pm
[22:19] <LjL> emma, let me put it quite plainly then
[22:19] <Seveas> could be considered spam
[22:19] <Pici> emma, You were here when ireclan came in here, what did you think of his report that your message was suspicious?
[22:19] <LjL> emma: we don't want people pointing to channels that aren't our channels, unless they're support channels or channels where a conversation should rather be held instead of the one it's being held in.
[22:20] <emma> Pici - He didn't seem to say anything. It looked like he was *asked* to come here and asked to paste what I said, and then when he did that, everyone saw it was nothing.
[22:20] <LjL> (then, i can certainly say that if the pointed-to channel has "ubuntu" in its name while being unofficial and there being some friction between it and us, that doesn't make us more tolerant about it)
[22:20] <emma> LjL - I see. - That's something that I can accomodate for you, I always cooperate with people who cooperate with me. I always work with and respect people who have good will and good faith toward me.
[22:20] <LjL> emma, you saw perfectly well what he said in #ubuntu-offtopic, so you know very well that he *was* asked.
[22:21] <LjL> he was asked, though, because he brought it up to begin with
[22:21] <emma> LjL -- I have not been monitoring all the channels. I just got home from work not long ago.
[22:21] <Seveas> how convenient
[22:21] <LjL> emma, well, you were highlighted by that.
[22:21] <emma> LjL - I see. Yes I see it now. 
[22:22] <emma> What is the problem. I am sorry he was alarmed and that you were alarmed. I don't think it is a crime what I did, or spam. I speak to many people like this, including some of you, regularly.  
[22:22] <Seveas> emma, how far away from work do you live?
[22:23] <LjL> emma: you see, if someone PMs me who i've never heard of before (even with something innocent like "can i pm you?"), i tend to get uncomfortable. usually, i assume they've PM'd me because they saw i'm an op, but if i were a regular user, i think i'd feel quite "what the heck".
[22:23] <LjL> emma: so, you may call people like me introverted, but the fact remains that we haven't had several "introverted" users complaining about a specific PM'er in the past. we do with you.
[22:24] <LjL> emma: i'm happy you're going to accomodate this view, and as i said earlier, you can probably find Hobbsee or elkbuntu (i guess it's one of those two you were looking for) in a couple of hours at worst, see you later
[22:24] <emma> Yeah, I can understand how you might react and many people would react differently. But the really important thing is that if I did pm you, and you expressed zero interest or did not even respond, then I would just not be talking to you in pm. So no harm. 
[22:25] <emma> What view were you referring to LjL ?
[22:25] <Seveas> emma, that's equivalent to opt-out spam
[22:25] <Seveas> emma, please answer my question
[22:26] <LjL> emma: well, "we don't want people pointing to channels that aren't our channels, unless they're support channels or channels where a conversation should rather be held instead of the one it's being held in." -- i thought that was what you replied to with "That's something that I can accomodate for you"
[22:27] <emma> LjL -- It is something that can be done, but there was another part to what I said. 
[22:28] <emma> I would even say that it's something I'm very willing to do.
[22:28] <LjL> emma: right. well, i'm afraid you'll have to be the one to show good will and good faith first, at this point
[22:28] <LjL> as in, you stop *first*, said plainly :)
[22:28] <emma> LjL - I think that's alright as well.
[22:29] <LjL> nice to hear
[22:29] <emma> LjL - I can do that also, but as you know as a mature adult these things don't work as in, one side gives all first. I will certainly be willing to give some first though.
[22:29] <emma> Do you understand what I mean? This is some times a difficult medium with no non-verbal cues and I am afraid some times if my text does not read correctly?
[22:29] <Seveas> emma, you broke it, you fix it. You stop annoying users and we may beleive you're actually willing to conform to the guidelines
[22:30] <LjL> emma, i have to agree with seveas. we aren't a bargaining agent
[22:31] <Seveas> @now oslo
[22:31] <ubotu> Current time in Europe/Oslo: March 18 2008, 23:31:10 - Next meeting: Server Team in 22 hours 28 minutes
[22:32] <Pici> Anything else? If not, see /topic 
[22:34] <Pici> !idle
[22:34] <ubotu> Please keep in mind that this channel is for operator/abuse questions only, and we ask you to part when you have no further business here, in order to keep track of users with pending inquiries.
[22:35] <Pici> emma: please see above ...
[22:36] <emma> Yes. I am talking to an op in pm. A few moments please?
[22:40] <LjL> emma, PMs do not get blocked when you leave a channel, do they :)
[22:41] <emma> LjL - A valid point would you like me to leave then for now?
[22:41] <Seveas> could that possibly have been more clear?
[22:41] <LjL> yes please
[23:08] <ubotu> In #ubuntu-np, r11t said: !test is something
[23:34] <elky_work> this will be a flood due to the fact that it's pre-composed and I'm not really supposed to be here since I'm at work
[23:34] <elky_work> emma, I just saw the logs of the most recent conversation and i must say i'm appalled. You try to say you dont PM randomly, but that's precisely what you did. You PM'd someone out of the blue, with no invitation, *THAT IS RANDOM*. PMing someone to ask for permission to PM is an uninvited and random PM.
[23:34] <elky_work> emma, You expect us to bend over for you and show faith -- yet you have not changed your random PM behaviour in anyway. What faith does this give us? In a word.. NONE. You twist our words around. What faith does this give us? NONE.
[23:34] <elky_work> You keep saying that I had already agreed to letting you have voice back in -offtopic and that it was recorded in logs. I did, see the following:
[23:34] <elky_work> [08:22] <elkbuntu> emma, i have no problem with you having voice back in -offtopic *only* on the proviso that you agree to play by our rules in our playground [08:23] <emma> *nods*
[23:34] <elky_work> You agreed to what I said. Well guess what, those conditions that Hobbsee put to you - they are our rules. _You_ agreed that you would play by our rules. It is in the logs.
[23:34] <elky_work> We are not picking on you. We are trying to do you a favour by spelling out the rules laid out in the Code of Conduct -- under 'Be Respectful' etc. We are spending the time to be explicit for you since you seem to need this. We know you're a good person, this is why we are putting this much effort into you -- we would not do it otherwise.
[23:34] <elky_work> I now must go and try get some work done. I got little done yesterday because I wasted hours of yesterday helping draw up those guidelines. Please do not PM me at this nick. *This is an explicit retraction of any implied invitation*.
[23:46] <ubotu> In #ubuntu-np, nepbabu said: ubotu: ubuntu-np is Nepali Ubuntu Local Community. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NepalTeam
[23:46] <LjL> !np is <reply> The Nepali Ubuntu Local Community is on #ubuntu-np - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NepalTeam
[23:46] <ubotu> I'll remember that, LjL
[23:47] <nepbabu> LjL: thanks!
[23:47] <nepbabu> :)