[00:26] <kwwii> sorry for being sick the last few days
[00:26] <kwwii> psyke83: I am here for a few minutes
[00:26] <kwwii> been sick the last couple of days
[00:27] <psyke83> kwwii, if you like, take another look at my theme: http://ubuntu-utah.ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=715530
[00:27] <psyke83> I think you've made some great improvements to Human-Murrine, but there can always be improvements
[00:28] <psyke83> my version is compatible with the Color Picker, so maybe you'd like to take my version as a base and then tweak it yourself
[00:28] <psyke83> I've adapted it to use the same reference orange color, so it's very similar
[00:29] <kwwii> psyke83: while I agree with you that there can always be improvements, it is 1:28 in the morning here and I am pretty dead, after being sick the last two days...let me take a look at it and I'll ask a few quick questions but after that I have to go back to sleep
[00:29] <kwwii> do you have a link to a screenshot?
[00:29] <kwwii> the best screenshot to make is of the the widget factory
[00:29] <kwwii> twf in a terminal
[00:30] <psyke83> kwwii, ah heh, my apologies... it's late here too, but I just returned from living in a different timezone for 6 months (Sao Paulo) and I have't re-adjusted
[00:30] <psyke83> http://ubuntu-utah.ubuntuforums.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=63041&d=1205882208
[00:30] <psyke83> I always include a twf screenshot, that's the link
[00:35] <kwwii> psyke83: the main things that stick out to me (no relevance to what the theme can do, but just the difference to ubuntulooks) is: 1) the active toggle button is just dark grey which does not say to me "active", 2) the progress bar and slider trough outline is not dark enough (the slider is not fixable with murrine - I have tried and it does not work afaik), 3) the scrollbar handles are too simple - ubuntulooks is much nicer, 4) the progress bars 
[00:35] <kwwii> wow, that is a long post
[00:35] <kwwii> sorry
[00:37] <psyke83> kwwii, thanks for the feedback... murrine is a bit limited in some ways, yes
[00:38] <psyke83> kwwii, this may be sacrilege, but we can actually use the engine of, say, clearlooks, for certain elements
[00:38] <psyke83> otherwise doesn't your Human-Murrine have similar problems?
[00:38] <kwwii> using the gtk changeable color scheme the biggest problem until now was how the menus looked
[00:39] <kwwii> do you have a screenshot of that?
[00:39] <psyke83> kwwii, I can whip one up now if you give me 1 min
[00:39] <kwwii> it was really hard for me to make things look right no matter which color I used or how I tweaked the values...in the end I stuck with hard coded color because it simply looked right
[00:40] <kwwii> I would much prefer to use colors which are changeable via the gui
[00:42] <psyke83> http://connogriofa.googlepages.com/Human-Murrine-Mod-test.png
[00:43] <psyke83> kwwii, that was a very quick modification; I changed the slider and scrollbars to clearlooks (and the sliders are identical to Ubuntulooks)
[00:43] <kwwii> hrm, that does not show a menu though
[00:43] <psyke83> we could even use the actual ubuntulooks engine, but I have a feeling it's becoming obsolete
[00:43] <kwwii> so that uses the ubuntulooks engine?
[00:43] <kwwii> we do not want to depend on two engines for an LTS release
[00:44] <psyke83> kwwii, you could make the colours identical to your current theme, I changed values myself based on my own preference (e.g. the inactive tabs)
[00:44] <kwwii> sure, but I cannot seem to make the menu stuff work right
[00:45] <psyke83> kwwii, no, it uses just clearlooks... it was just an idea
[00:45] <psyke83> Cimi says that the murrine from svn supports custom widgets, but he hasn't released a new "stable" version
[00:45] <psyke83> kwwii, the menu uses the same glaze style as other items, it's different to your theme
[00:46] <kwwii> psyke83: those slider handles are available with clearlooks?
[00:46] <psyke83> *selected menu item background, precisely
[00:46] <kwwii> psyke83: send me your gtkrc so that I can test it out
[00:46] <kwwii> at least then I can give you a decent answer without relying on screenshots which I might not understand
[00:47] <psyke83> it's tough to take a screenshot of the menu, so: http://ubuntuforums.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=63047&d=1205885484
[00:47] <psyke83> maybe don't try the theme tonight if you're exhausted, but I'd appreciate you taking a look sometime
[00:47] <kwwii> psyke83: I will look at it tomorrow, I promise
[00:48] <psyke83> I'm confident you can tweak the theme to your liking and preserve the Color Picker compatibility
[00:48] <kwwii> I should be online all day tomorrow
[00:48] <kwwii> well, starting a bit late my time probably
[00:49] <kwwii> psyke83: will you be online tomorrow sometime?
[00:49] <psyke83> kwwii, I can send via dcc, otherwise it's  available from that link
[00:49] <psyke83> kwwii, sure, and I guess you're based in the UK?
[00:50] <psyke83> I'm in Ireland, so I think our times are pretty similar
[00:51] <psyke83> another link: http://connogriofa.googlepages.com/Human-Murrine-Mod_v0.11.tar.gz
[00:53] <kwwii> psyke83: nope, germany (although I am american)
[00:53] <psyke83> ah ok, well there's not a huge differences in timezones... I'll be online tomorrow, I think
[00:53] <kwwii> cool, see you then...I'll look into things and get back to you
[00:54] <psyke83> thanks, I'll talk to you tomorrow... and I hope you rest well
[00:54] <kwwii> thanks for the good work :-)
[00:54] <kwwii> I hope so too .-)
[00:54] <kwwii> see you soon
[00:55] <psyke83> see you
[13:55] <psyke83> hi kwwii, are you feeling better today?
[14:07] <kwwii> psyke83: not too much...but I have to get a few things done anyway
[14:09] <psyke83> kwwii, we can take a look at the theme another time if you're busy, then
[14:10] <psyke83> ...or sick, heh
[14:10] <kwwii> psyke83: I'll look into it once I have gdm fixed
[14:12] <psyke83> ok, so give me a shout later, or I will
[14:27] <kwwii> I will do so
[14:49] <kwwii> psyke83: ok, taking a look at it now
[14:51] <psyke83> kwwii, http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=715530
[14:51] <psyke83> the direct link to the theme file is: http://ubuntuforums.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=63099&d=1205935273
[14:52] <psyke83> you also mentioned the menus, here's a screenshot: http://ubuntuforums.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=63091&d=1205928668
[14:52] <kwwii> is that the same as what you told me to download yesterday?
[14:53] <kwwii> the one thing that stands out to me is that the menu bg is white
[14:53] <kwwii> whereas it should probably be the same grey as the normal bg (or perhaps a bit lighter)
[14:54] <psyke83> kwwii, check the original Human theme; it's lighter
[14:55] <psyke83> IMHO it looks nice when it's lighter, but perhaps not as light as I made it, I don't know
[14:55] <_MMA_> I would think anything to do with the Murrine-based theme really doesn't matter since it's will be switched back to the old Ubuntulooks one.
[14:56] <psyke83> I think it offers better contrast, so you can see the menu is distinct from the background of the main application window's background
[14:58] <psyke83> _MMA_, any work we do can still go in as an alternative theme, or as work for Hardy+1
[15:00] <_MMA_> psyke83: That's assuming some things I'm unsure will actually happen.
[15:00] <_MMA_> But rock on.
[15:01] <kwwii> psyke83: I will include your changes to the murrine stuff, but I wish the menu was a bit darker :-)
[15:01] <kwwii> _MMA_: and I just got the word that we should switch back to ubuntu looks
[15:02] <psyke83> _MMA_: sure. I noticed Human-Murrine was being tweaked during the alpha process, and decided to offer an alternative, that's all. I don't know if it will make it to Hardy, but that's not so important :)
[15:03] <psyke83> kwwii, argh ;). But of course, it's your choice to tweak anything. I'd like to see a lighter menu, but the important thing is that it's Color Picker compatible now
[15:03] <kwwii> I think that in hardy+1 you'll see more changes
[15:03] <_MMA_> kwwii: :( Oh well. I wanna say more but I'll just wait to bitch in Prague. :P
[15:03] <kwwii> psyke83: yeah, that is the best part :-)
[15:04] <psyke83> let's make a compromise; I notice Ubuntulooks/Human is a very light gray vs. Clearlooks et. al. being white... let's follow that ;)
[15:05] <kwwii> sounds good to me
[15:09] <psyke83> kwwii, so it was Mark that gave the word to switch back?
[15:10] <psyke83> what I'm concerned about is that the Ubuntulooks engine is unmaintained... most bugs for the engine/theme are unattended nowadays
[15:10] <kwwii> psyke83: right, and that is why we want to move away from it long term
[15:11] <kwwii> but right now, ubuntulooks just does some things much nicer than the other themes
[15:11] <psyke83> kwwii, true
[15:11] <kwwii> the scroll bar and slider handles, the progress bars mainly
[15:14] <psyke83> kwwii, if the murrine will continue to be installed bye default, we can create a hybrid theme... heh
[15:14] <psyke83> *murrine engine
[15:14] <psyke83> *by
[15:14] <psyke83> sorry for my spelling
[15:15] <kwwii> hehe, I think that someone might have a problem with that :-)
[15:16] <_MMA_> hahahahaha
[15:20] <psyke83> I know, I was kidding :)
[15:21] <psyke83> it's unfortunate, I quite like Human-Murrine... will it still be left as an optional theme with the default install?
[15:24] <kwwii> I hope so
[15:24] <kwwii> in the end it will depend on how much space is left on the CD
[15:24] <kwwii> and whether they notice it or not :-)
[15:26] <psyke83> ;)