[00:34] <bddebian> Heya gang
[00:34] <j1mc> hi bddebian
[00:34] <protonchris> hey bddebian
[00:35] <bddebian> Hello j1mc, protonchris
[00:57] <imbrandon> ...
[01:00] <RAOF> imbrandon: Hello!
[01:00] <bddebian> Heya imbrandon, RAOF
[01:00] <ajmitch> now look what you've done
[01:00]  * bddebian gives ajmitch a hug
[01:00]  * ajmitch leaves
[01:00] <bddebian> :'-(
[01:01] <imbrandon> heya RAOF bddebian
[01:02] <Hobbsee> ajmitch!
[01:03] <ajmitch> Hobbsee: ?
[01:03] <Hobbsee> ajmitch: hello.
[01:04] <ajmitch> hi
[02:41] <nhaines> I have a packaging question that might be able to be answered here.  :)
[02:41] <nhaines> I have a PPA and somebody filed a bug against me asking me to include a changelog so he can see the changes made in Update Manager.
[02:41] <nhaines> I said that I *do* include a changelog and that as far as I knew there was no way to make the changes appear in Update Manager.
[02:42] <nhaines> I would *love* to be wrong.  :)
[02:43] <ScottK2> nhaines: PPA questions should be addressed to #launchpad
[02:44] <jdong> ScottK2: it's not really a PPA question once parsed
[02:44] <nhaines> ScottK2: I was thinking in a more generic repository sense.
[02:44] <jdong> ScottK2: it's an update-manager question and the short answer is changelogs will only be displayed for official Ubuntu packages
[02:44] <jdong> with changelog entries on changelogs.ubuntu.com
[02:44] <ScottK2> jdong: If it's for an upload to a PPA, it's nothing to do with Ubuntu
[02:44] <jdong> nhaines: ^^
[02:45] <nhaines> jdong: I know about changelogs.ubuntu.com.  I hadn't yet gone as far as to peek at update-manager.py but was hoping there was some other facility for it.  :)
[02:45] <nhaines> Okay, well, short answer is good.  Is there a long answer as well?
[02:50] <nhaines> Okay, mucho thanks for the answer.  At least that's a starting point.  I'll take a look at update-manager's code and take it up in #launchpad.
[02:55] <ScottK2> \sh_away: Recalling your interest in Octave, I mention Debian Bug 432375 (since it's fixed in a later version of the package than we have).
[02:55] <ubotu> Debian bug 432375 in octave2.1-forge "octave2.1-forge: FTBFS: /usr/bin/ld: cannot find -lgfortranbegin" [Serious,Fixed] http://bugs.debian.org/432375
[03:13] <nhaines> Okay, so on the topic of Universe, I'm the packager for the Pyroom project, and we have a nice, stable 0.2 release planned that's only waiting on translations now.
[03:14] <nhaines> It's our understanding that there's no way to get it into Universe for hardy, so we have intrepid in mind.
[03:14] <nhaines> Question is: once it's been accepted, how are bugfix updates maintained?  We find a MOTU to sponsor?
[03:18] <ScottK2> nhaines: Yes.
[03:19] <ScottK2> nhaines: You start with REVU to get your package into Ubuntu and then if there are updates we have a sponsorship process.
[03:19] <ScottK2> !revu | nhaines
[03:19] <ubotu> nhaines: REVU is a web-based tool to give people who have worked on Ubuntu packages a chance to "put their packages out there" for other people to look at and comment on in a structured manner. See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Packages/REVU
[03:20] <ScottK2> nhaines: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/SponsorshipProcess
[03:27] <nhaines> ScottK2: It wasn't clear to me that the Sponsorship presses pertained also to bugfix updates to packages that have gone throught the REVU process. Thanks!
[03:27] <ScottK2> nhaines: Yes.
[03:28] <ScottK2> REVU is new packages and then regular sponsorship process for updates after that.
[03:29] <nhaines> Okay then, time to polish up my packaging skills, and then I'll be all set for intrepid!  :D
[03:52] <LaserJock> ok, so I got sbuild working, but it doesn't seem to cache the build dependencies it downloads. Is there a way to get it to do that?
[03:52] <LaserJock> I didn't see anything obvious in the man page
[03:53] <persia> LaserJock: You can set a local mirror, or bind-mount your apt-cache directory.
[03:56] <LaserJock> ok, so I need to figure out how to bind-mount in schroot
[06:07] <dholbach> good morning
[06:17] <slangasek> imbrandon: so do you know what's happened to qa.ubuntuwire.com/weatherreport?
[06:19] <warp10> Heya all
[06:19] <imbrandon> slangasek: a bit of lack of planning , subst .com with .org for now
[06:19]  * imbrandon dident get the dns updated in time
[06:20] <slangasek> imbrandon: hrm?  qa.ubuntuwire.{com,org}/weatherreport both 404 for me.
[06:20] <imbrandon> hrm ok /me looks
[06:20] <slangasek> imbrandon: did ogasawara not manage to get in touch with you about this?
[06:22] <imbrandon> probably not, i've been avoiding irc
[06:24] <imbrandon> hrm looks like it should be working, i might have to prod Fujitsu when he is arround, he has been running the show moreso than me lately
[06:25] <imbrandon> hrm i could setup some nagios monitoring .... *thinks*
[06:26] <slangasek> oh, ok, perhaps Fujitsu is who she talked to then
[06:26] <imbrandon> yea i just got the inital ball rolling per say, the rest of the team has really taken over most aspects of it the last 2 months
[06:26] <imbrandon> while i took a "break" :)
[06:27] <imbrandon> i just now crawled back on irc tonight with a little proding from laserjock and ajmitch :)
[06:28] <slangasek> heh, ok :)
[06:28] <slangasek> yours was the only name I knew to associate with the domain, but I assume ogasawara knows better since she must've been coordinating all this with someone in the first place
[06:29] <imbrandon> slangasek: ahh yea the whole "team" officaly is http://people.ubuntuwire.com/~uwsa/ , but there are others than help tremendously too
[06:29] <imbrandon> but anyone on that page should have garenteed admin access over everything afaik
[06:30] <nxvl> imbrandon: hi!
[06:30] <nxvl> imbrandon: it has been a while!
[06:30] <nxvl> imbrandon: i hear you were sick? are you ok now?
[06:31] <imbrandon> well initial i was sick ( only the flu ) then when i recovered i took a bit of a break from irc
[06:31] <imbrandon> i'm still arround and kickin
[06:31]  * dholbach hugs imbrandon
[06:31] <imbrandon> heya dholbach
[06:32] <imbrandon> i never "left" per se, just got away from 24x7 on this distraction :)
[06:32]  * nxvl HUGS imbrandon too
[06:32] <imbrandon> hehe
[06:32] <imbrandon> email and jabber always work though :)
[06:32] <nxvl> dholbach: btw, why did you declined Bug #162167 for hardy?
[06:32] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 162167 in mysql-dfsg-5.0 "mySQL password asks only once" [Wishlist,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/162167
[06:32] <nxvl> (just asking)
[06:33] <dholbach> nxvl: the development release is the default target
[06:33] <dholbach> nxvl: so there's no need to nominate for hardy
[06:33] <imbrandon> slangasek / dholbach : wow , so i guess i missed a bit-o-dramma from iwj ( re: dpkg )
[06:33] <dholbach> it was just "house keeping", not a release decision
[06:34] <dholbach> nxvl: does that make sense?
[06:34] <nxvl> dholbach: well, actually that bug is somehoe critical, due it can make that a user which makes a mistake won't be able to use his/her mysql
[06:34] <nxvl> somehow
[06:34] <dholbach> nxvl: you don't need to nominate for the current development release
[06:34] <imbrandon> nxvl: sure you can easily reset the password with mysqladmin
[06:35] <imbrandon> but it is a bug, but not "critical" imho
[06:35] <dholbach> nxvl: "hardy" is the default for all bugs that are open right now
[06:35] <slangasek> dholbach: but we use release-targeting to track bugs that are release critical...
[06:35] <nxvl> dholbach: yes, it make sense for me, i also thought it would be for ibex, BUT nijaba wanted it for hardy as you can se on https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/mysql-dfsg-5.0/+bug/162167/comments/7
[06:35] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 162167 in mysql-dfsg-5.0 "mySQL password asks only once" [Wishlist,Confirmed]
[06:35] <dholbach> slangasek: aren't they milestoned?
[06:35] <nxvl> dholbach: but i'm agree with you, just asking why's
[06:36] <slangasek> dholbach: bugs that are nominated and accepted (or not declined) for hardy get on the release team radar
[06:36] <dholbach> slangasek: OK
[06:36] <nxvl> imbrandon: thats why i added "somehow"
[06:36] <slangasek> milestoned bugs do as well.  But other bugs do not, regardless of bug priority
[06:36] <dholbach> I'm happy for it to be on the radar - it was my misunderstanding then
[06:36] <dholbach> excusez-moi
[06:37] <nxvl> dholbach: the one how will actually one or other way discuss it and defend the patch would be nijaba as he ask me to fix it on yesterday server team meeting
[06:37] <dholbach> ok
[06:37] <nxvl> :D
[06:37] <nxvl> i just did my work
[06:41] <nxvl> dholbach: btw, you always woke up really early, didn't you?
[06:42] <dholbach> nxvl: yes, my girlfriend had to get up early today and I thought "if I go back to sleep now it'll be 12 when I wake up again" :)
[06:42] <nxvl> heh
[06:43] <nxvl> wich time is at berlin? 7 am?
[06:43] <dholbach> 7:43 now
[06:43] <dholbach> I had a lousy night thought... somebody in the house had some kind of party last night - at 3 I decided to stop their party
[06:44] <dholbach> s/thought/though
[06:45] <dholbach> *yawn*
[06:45] <nxvl> mm just 6 hour difference
[06:50] <nixternal> hiya dholbach!
[06:50] <dholbach> hi nixternal
[06:54] <imbrandon> slangasek: try http://qa-2.ubuntuwire.com/weatherreport ( redirect comming soon )
[06:57] <slangasek> imbrandon: ah, that looks a bit better, thanks :)
[07:01] <nixternal> holy smokes, it is imbrandon
[07:02] <imbrandon> heya nix
[07:04] <nixternal> wasabi homeskillet?
[07:06] <StevenK> imbrandon: How's WoW going? :-P
[07:06] <imbrandon> lvl 38
[07:06] <imbrandon> :)
[07:06] <StevenK> Way cool.
[07:07] <imbrandon> got my wife playing, now she plays more than me
[07:07] <imbrandon> lol
[07:07] <StevenK> Haha
[07:07] <StevenK> So she's a 60? :-P
[07:07] <imbrandon> heh nah, like 46 or 45
[07:08] <imbrandon> been running though SM alot
[07:08] <imbrandon> cept my debian install on my lappy broke yesterday
[07:08] <imbrandon> so no wow for me untill i fix it
[07:08]  * StevenK took 2 40s through ZF last night
[07:10] <imbrandon> you should transfer to my server
[07:10] <imbrandon> and join <ironic>
[07:10] <imbrandon> PvE
[07:10] <StevenK> My friends on Dath would kill me :-)
[07:11] <imbrandon> like 80% of the original guild i was in broke off and made ironic a few days ago
[07:12] <imbrandon> and the GM is the guy that i know in RL ( at work ) that got me playing , lol
[07:12] <StevenK> Whoa. Bet that was fun
[07:12] <imbrandon> funny thing is after like 4 days we were higer on wowjitsu rankings than the old guild by like 10 slots
[07:13] <nxvl> imbrandon: is ubuntuwire already up?
[07:13] <imbrandon> nxvl: mostly , still a few kinks to work out
[07:13] <nxvl> imbrandon: but qa already work?
[07:14] <imbrandon> yes
[07:14] <nxvl> wooohooooo
[07:14] <nxvl> i missed it!
[07:19]  * imbrandon yawns
[07:43] <_ruben> any thoughts on performing module-assistant stuff in a pbuilder environment other than pbuilder --login and go from there? i'd prefer to issue commands and have the resulting package(s) end up in the usual results dir
[08:11] <\sh> moins
[08:32] <sebner> good morning folks :)
[08:47] <_ruben> morning
[08:50] <_ruben> googling for pbuilder + module-assistant doesnt yield much useful :-/ .. guess i'll have to stick with the pbuilder login approach for now
[08:53] <persia> _ruben: That's likely the best approach, as module-assistant has it's own special places to store things.  You might create a simple wrapper around pbuilder to login, install & configure the module, copy the results to the bind-mount, and clean up.
[08:53] <_ruben> persia: hmm .. would have to look into that .. any starting points for info on automating such a process?
[08:54] <_ruben> am rather new to the pbuilder thing
[08:55] <persia> _ruben: I don't use pbuilder, but I presume that you can pass a script to be executed when calling pbuilder-login.  So long as this script exists in the master tarball, you should be all set.
[08:55] <_ruben> persia: thanks
[08:56] <_ruben>        --execute
[08:56] <_ruben>               Execute a script or command inside the chroot, in a similar manner to --login
[08:56] <_ruben>               The file specified in the command-line argument will be copied into the chroot, and invoked.
[08:56] <_ruben>               The remaining arguments are passed on to the script.
[08:56] <persia> That would be the one :)
[08:56] <_ruben> guess i should've looked at the manpage earlier ;)
[08:56]  * _ruben slaps self
[08:57] <persia> Given the special behaviour of copying the script before executing, you don't even need to mangle the clean chroot tarball.
[08:57] <_ruben> indeed
[08:57]  * _ruben is becoming more fond of ubuntu by the day ;)
[09:41] <_ruben> hrm .. is there an option similar to 'bash -x' but then for 'make' ? i'd expect it to exist, cant find it tho
[09:44] <persia> _ruben: What are you trying to do?  The answer may be yes, but the bash manpage doesn't give me enough information about -x to be sure.
[09:44] <\sh> -x is debugging output...more like a trace
[09:45] <\sh> make has -d and --debug=[flags], man make helps
[09:45] <\sh> persia: set -x ;)
[09:46] <persia> Ah.  I typically use -d or -p, depending on what is being traced.  -p indicates all the predicates to determine expected program flow, and -d is extra-noisy.
[09:49] <_ruben> im looking a trace of within the makefile .. the -d option for make only shows me debugging up to the point where it starts using the makefile
[09:50] <_ruben> i have 2 source trees, one full, one trimmed down .. one builds fine, the other doesnt .. i dont see any obvious references to missing parts in the trimmed down tree .. so im curious why the makefile ends up being processed differently
[09:50] <_ruben> for which in a bash script i'd use -x
[09:52] <\sh> _ruben: man make...--debug option...--debug=im is eventually what you want..I'm not sure
[09:52] <_ruben> \sh: tried that, doesnt show anything from within the makefile
[09:52] <persia> _ruben: Likely the tests are different.  Each make stanza not listed explicitly as a dependency of .PHONY is an implicit test for the existence of the file in the local directory.  In a dirty tree, this can result in non-execution of some stanzas.
[09:53] <_ruben> persia: and thats exactly what im trying to debug/find out
[09:53] <persia> _ruben: And the build log doesn't show any error?
[09:54] <_ruben> persia: running make manually, so no build log afaik
[09:54] <persia> _ruben: run under script :)
[09:55] <_ruben> persia: if only i knew what you meant by that
[09:56] <persia> _ruben: `aptitude install bsdutils; script; $(initiate build); exit; $(PAGER) typescript`
[10:00] <_ruben> ah .. kinda like running it through tee .. wont be of much use .. thought it was a magic trick to generate more logging or something ;)
[10:01] <_ruben> shit .. bailed out of my pbuilder .. gotta set things up again now :p
[10:06] <_ruben> oh well .. i'll just print out the Makefile .. try to figure out how it flows through it, and hopefully learn my fair share of make stuff from it ;)
[10:07] <persia> make -p will print out the map of what make is planning, which is typically easier to manually trace than the raw makefile.
[10:14] <tbf> how can i tell aptitude to update just one single archive?
[10:16] <persia> tbf: You can't easily.  Why wouldn't you want to update the cache of the others?
[10:21] <tbf> persia: 'cause my internet link is quite slow right now... or modified checks not working for hardy's main repos.
[10:22] <tbf> persia: well, but resolved the issue causing me to call "aptitude update" frequently....
[10:22] <tbf> persia: so thanks for help - and nevermind :-D
[10:23] <persia> tbf: Sorry to not have a better answer :(  If you're trolling in the future, you can just download the Packages and Sources files from the archive directly, and replace it locally.  aptitude can't do this, but it can use the results of you doing it manually.
[10:24] <tbf> persia: indeed. good idea. thanks.
[10:25] <tbf> persia: well, and no indend to troll. just wondered my aptitude didn't offer a certain package for update...
[10:25] <tbf> persia: i knew it was updated in the package archive...
[10:26] <tbf> persia: after grepping the relevant files in /var/lib/apt/lists/, i realized that apt already knew about the new package...
[10:26] <tbf> persia: so i moved my ass into aptitude just to get reminded that i temporarly removed the package
[10:26] <tbf> persia: DUH!
[10:26] <persia> tbf: Sorry.  I should have used "poll" rather than "troll".  I meant in the sense of fishing for the good bit, rather than seeking human interaction.
[10:27] <persia> heh
[10:27] <tbf> ah, ok.
[10:37] <\sh> perfect now I'm able to test ubuntu mobile stuff
[10:52] <tbf> are there any special measures needed to convice dpkg to install stuff in /etc/dbus/system.d/ ?
[10:53] <tbf> ...the .deb archive contains my file, but appearently aptitude doesn't  drop it at /etc/dbus/system.d/
[11:04] <tbf> interesting, removing the package with "aptitude purge" and then reinstalling it, also dropped the dbus configuration file at its place
[11:04] <tbf> so how to i ask dpkg to __always__ overwrite a certain file at /etc?
[11:04] <tbf> well, or at least ask the user if overwriting is ok?
[11:05] <Hobbsee> that's what it normally does?
[11:05] <Hobbsee> apt, at least
[11:06] <slangasek> tbf: --force-confmiss
[11:07] <tbf> slangasek: thanks, googling for that term
[11:07] <tbf> Hobbsee: well, the file was even missing, and aptitude didn't install the package's version
[11:07]  * tbf reads http://www.debian.org/doc/debian-policy/ap-pkg-conffiles.html now
[11:13] <tbf> ok, debuild/cdbs/whoever automatically added that file to the conffiles section!
[11:13] <tbf> strange.
[11:13] <slytherin> is anyone able to view yahoo webcam in kopete4?
[11:16] <persia> tbf: CDBS does magic.  Create an empty (or accurate) debian/package.conffiles if you want it to be less magic.
[11:16] <broonie> IIRC debhelper can do that for you too - any files shipped in /etc should be conffiles so it doesn't need great magic.
[11:17] <tbf> broonie: not sure about stuff in /etc/dbus/system.d/
[11:18] <tbf> broonie: dbus-activation services cannot gain root privileges, when their file is missing from that folder
[11:18] <broonie> Including that.
[11:19] <tbf> broonie: well, imho treating such files as configuration files is harmful
[11:19] <tbf> broonie: editing those files usually just breaks applications
[11:20] <broonie> Everything in /etc is supposed to be editable by the admin; in the case of the dbus policy files they may want to add additional permissions, for example.
[11:20] <tbf> hmm... maybe dbus is wrong, by placing the files there
[11:20] <tbf> broonie: my file really should says "yes, root is allowed to claim that dbus service name"
[11:21] <tbf> broonie: if root is not allowed to do that, the application will break
[11:21] <tbf> broonie: hmm... maybe i should add a comment to that file
[11:22]  * broonie has edited things there in the past to say stuff like "...and group X is also allowed to talk to it", FWIW
[11:33] <french1> siretart: Yes, funny indeed.
[11:34] <french1> siretart: I have a long-lost step brother you know. ;)
[11:42] <sebner> RainCT: should I attach new files for gbrainy 0.6.1 ?
[11:42] <sebner> eh 0.61
[11:51] <RainCT> sebner: isn't necessary :)
[11:52] <sebner> RainCT: fine :)
[11:53] <RainCT> DktrKranz2: anything new about tapiir?
[12:19] <sistpoty|work> hi folks
[12:19] <sebner> hio siretart
[12:19] <sebner> ho sistpoty|work
[12:19] <sistpoty|work> hi sebner
[12:20] <RainCT> heya sistpoty|work
[12:20] <sistpoty|work> hi RainCT
[12:24] <\sh> hey sistpoty|work
[12:24] <\sh> sistpoty|work: thx for the +1
[12:25]  * sebner hugs  sistpoty|work for ACKing  and \sh for making it possible :)
[12:25] <\sh> sebner: we wait for debian now :)
[12:25] <\sh> sistpoty|work: if you be so kind, please ack bug #204016 ;)
[12:25] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 204016 in zend-framework "[FFe] zend-framework 1.5.0" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/204016
[12:26] <\sh> that will give hardy more love from zend ;)
[12:26] <sistpoty|work> hi \sh
[12:26] <sebner> \sh: how long ca?
[12:26] <\sh> sebner: today, tomorrow...who knows...but it will hopefully go before hardy will be released ;)
[12:26] <sistpoty|work> it's already tagged as release in svn, so I assume that it (probably?) is getting uploaded already
[12:27] <sebner> \sh: xD xD xD
[12:27] <\sh> sistpoty|work: well, I checked fteqcc from debian unstable, and they were bumping the version of it, so they are not using the provided svn export of nexuiz
[12:28] <sebner> sistpoty|work: it's not yet in incoming
[12:33] <sebner> \sh: but I'm often asking me why we wait for a debian release. Why not packaging ourselfs (so no need to hope that they release it soon)
[12:33] <\sh> sebner: anyways...I have all packages handy..so we can always upload directly
[12:33] <\sh> sebner: check the numbers of maintainers debian has, and compare them with voluntary contributors of ubuntu
[12:34] <sebner> \sh: true, but for very important stuff .... as you did now with nexuiz
[12:34] <\sh> sebner: so, we are less in numbers, and we want to decrease the divergence of ubuntu towards debian, especially inside universe/multiverse
[12:35] <sebner> \sh: Yeah I fully understand that but sid is a rolling release and ubuntu not
[12:36] <\sh> sebner: so, ubuntu devel releases are still rolling, too :)
[12:37] <\sh> sebner: did you see one of sabdfls presentations? regarding ubuntu development cycles and the dependency towards debian sid?
[12:37] <sebner> \sh: unfortunately not. And yes I know that ubuntu really depends on debian
[12:41] <persia> sebner: Also, it can be difficult to share patches if the md5sums for the Debian and Ubuntu releases are not the same.  As there is no infrastructure for Debian to sync from Ubuntu, Debian goes first (and also, nexiuz is actuively being packaged in Debian at the current time: racing without touching base with the Debian person is often duplicated work)
[12:41] <sebner> aloha afflux
[12:42] <afflux> huh
[12:42] <afflux> ah, hih sebner :)
[12:42] <sebner> persia: yeah, I understand. though debian/ubuntu team packaged it IIRC
[12:42] <sebner> afflux: ^^
[12:42] <persia> sebner: Ah.  I'm still catching up on email, so that may well be the case :)
[12:47] <sebner> persia: :) btw. worked on my first bugfix: replace icedtea-java7 references with openjdk-6 references  \o/
[12:48] <persia> sebner: Excellent.  Nice job.  If you want to look at more merges / reverse-merges, all of http://qa.ubuntuwire.com/bugs/rcbugs/ need to be reviewed/fixed before release.
[12:49] <sebner> persia: merges \o/ \o/ \o/
[12:50] <sebner> persia: ah stupid question. but I'm also allowed to prepare debdiffs for main and just subscribe core-dev then?
[12:51] <persia> sebner: Sure.  Note that the ubuntu-release team has slightly different rules for freeze exceptions from motu-release, so you have to be more careful about documenting the bug being fixed clearly.
[12:51] <persia> Also, not core-dev, but ubuntu-main-sponsors.
[12:51] <sebner> persia: ah sry. tur
[12:51] <sebner> *true
[12:52] <\sh> sebner: but we brb
[12:52] <\sh> grmpf
[12:52] <\sh> brb
[13:01] <sebner> persia: how can I get something removed from it (e.g I worked on the streamtuner merge but in the end we decided to wait until intrepid because it's not worth it)
[13:01] <siretart> hi french1 && sebner. hi folks
[13:02] <french1> siretart: Hi there.
[13:03] <persia> sebner: Removed from a sponsors queue?  Ask for a sponsor to unsubscribe the team.
[13:05] <sebner> persia: ahh :)
[13:05] <siretart> Hobbsee: he improved? ;)
[13:06] <Hobbsee> siretart: no, but it's the motu council's job to put conditions on it, not mine.  I've been told by jono that if we (any of us) feel that the MC is not doing their job in this matter, we should email him, with proof, and he has promised to look into it.
[13:06] <Hobbsee> siretart: and/or to go to the CC>
[13:06] <Hobbsee> siretart: as it is, the policy on ban evasion is supposed to go in front of the motu meeting at the next meeting.
[13:07] <sebner> persia: and how can I mark/let others know that something isn't necessary?
[13:07] <Hobbsee> siretart: i presume the part w.r.t. not doing their job and jono still applies for that.
[13:07] <persia> Umm.  MC doesn't control IRC.  IRC Council is the place to determine who is banned.  MC does have a general request that Marco not participate in Development until he can get a couple developers to request he be granted permission to participate again.
[13:07] <persia> sebner: Just ask here.
[13:07] <huats> pochu:
[13:07] <huats> ping :)
[13:07] <Hobbsee> persia: i've been told it's not my domain.  if you don't think that's the case, you'll really need to take that up with jono - or email the irc mailing list requesting the ban, from the council.
[13:08] <Hobbsee> persia: but, mere people are not to act.
[13:08] <Hobbsee> it must be the councils.
[13:08] <sebner> Not necessary on ubuntuwire; simgear  <-- ubuntu doesn't support those platforms (debian fixed a FTBFS on Alpha, HPPA, and S/390)
[13:08] <persia> Hobbsee: I'll chat with Jono, but won't request a ban unless the new permission to speak is abused.
[13:08] <siretart> err, aren't we all a bit overexagerating here?
[13:08] <Hobbsee> as soren rightly points out, motu is not an anarchy.
[13:09] <persia> sebner: Oh, for those?  Add a comment in the comment field.
[13:09] <sebner> persia: there is a comment field? XD XD XD
[13:09]  * persia thought there was, unless there was a regression in rcbugs
[13:09] <sebner> persia: no there is
[13:09] <sebner> persia: but my eyes are not the best ^^
[13:10] <persia> siretart: Likely only being extra pedantic...
[13:10] <Hobbsee> siretart: what makes you say that?
[13:15] <jussio1> arg, can someone link me to the help page for ppa's can seem to find it... sigh
[13:16] <Iulian> jussio1: https://help.launchpad.net/PPAQuickStart
[13:16] <siretart> Hobbsee: because I didn't intend to provoke a discussion about responsibilities of decisions, and certainly not discuss responsibilities of powers of our institutions
[13:17] <jussio1> Iulian: thnk you :)
[13:17] <Hobbsee> siretart: true.  i was also using some of hte information that i'd gained on the recent conference call with jono, which may be of use to other people :)
[13:18] <Hobbsee> which ended up being relevant to the previous comments
[13:18] <ScottK2> How the heck did he get unbanned?
[13:19] <sebner> persia: 1 done. More people should work on the list because 1) more fixes for ubuntu 2) more users could join 5-a-day ^^
[13:19] <Hobbsee> ScottK2: i did it.
[13:19] <ScottK2> Why?
[13:19] <Hobbsee> ScottK2: wasn't my domain to ban in the first place.  see the first few lines.
[13:20]  * ScottK2 disagrees.
[13:20] <ScottK2> persia: What possible benifit is there to not having the ban.
[13:21] <ScottK2> Hobbsee: IRC ops aren't allowed to ban people?
[13:21] <Hobbsee> ScottK2: in the eyes of various developers, not if they're acting on their own, or not if the respective councils haven't agreed to.
[13:21] <Hobbsee> unless it's spam, etc,
[13:21] <Pici> ScottK2: I'm guessing that they are deeming it a conflict of interest, althoguh I disagree.
[13:21] <Hobbsee> ScottK2: that being said, anyone can get ops in here...
[13:22] <persia> ScottK: Shorter ban list on freenode?
[13:22] <ScottK2> persia: Fewer developers is also I likely benifit
[13:22] <persia> ScottK: Sure.  I don't personally care if there is a ban or not, so long as Marco is not active in this channel.
[13:22] <persia> Further, I don't presume to speak regarding IRC policy.
[13:22] <Hobbsee> persia: we're nowhere near the limit for here.  #ubuntu and #ubuntu-offtopic, however....
[13:23] <sebner> We want to remove python-xml before release. Also libxml?
[13:23] <Hobbsee> persia: you'll now be relying on his own restrant, or a MC council decision for that.
[13:23] <ScottK2> sebner: No.  Just python-xml
[13:23] <Hobbsee> persia: which is probably the way it should ahve been originally
[13:23] <sebner> ScottK: k, thx
[13:23] <ScottK2> How much evidence do we need that his own restraint is non-existant
[13:25] <Hobbsee> ScottK2: then you collect evidence, and go to jono/the CC that the MC isn't doing it's job.
[13:25] <ScottK2> persia: I gather then that kmos is still not fired, just being requested.
[13:25] <Hobbsee> ScottK2: if they didn't act.
[13:25] <Hobbsee> er, don't act, in a reasonable form of time.
[13:25] <persia> Hobbsee: I'm confused?  There is an MC decision that Marco should not participate in development, and ask ScottK points out, he has not demonstrated restraint.
[13:25] <ScottK2> We're way past that
[13:25] <persia> s/ask/as/
[13:25] <\sh> now we have divergence
[13:25] <ScottK2> persia: So we are undoing the one thing that's actually been done to restrain him.
[13:25] <\sh> really
[13:25] <\sh> Source: flashplugin-nonfree-pulse
[13:25] <\sh> which is our libflashsupport ;)
[13:26] <persia> ScottK: Well, one of the things, but yes, and I'm not attempting to defend that removal.
[13:26] <ScottK2> persia: I do not have the spare cycles to deal with Kmos or a do nothing MC.
[13:26]  * Hobbsee emails the ML
[13:26] <persia> ScottK: Umm.  I agree with you.  I don't wish to see Kmos back.
[13:27] <\sh> hmmm? what's wrong again with kmos?
[13:27] <ScottK2> Then fix it.  You're management.  I'm not.
[13:27] <ScottK2> \sh: The IRC ban has been removed.
[13:28] <\sh> ScottK2: so he's back in #u-d...
[13:28] <\sh> I see
[13:28] <ScottK2> Dunno.  Just know the possibility exists.
[13:28] <persia> The issue is more that MC doesn't control IRC.  Once I understand why the ban removal was requested, I'll see what needs doing to have it either reinstated or someone to assure me that the lack of a ban will not be a problem.
[13:28] <ScottK2> I don't see what possible reason we would have for not wanting him banned.
[13:28] <\sh> 14:27 -!- Kmos [n=gothicx@unaffiliated/kmos]
[13:28] <\sh> 14:27 -!-  ircname  : Marco Rodrigues
[13:28] <\sh> 14:27 -!-  channels : #ubuntu-devel
[13:28] <ScottK2> The rest is just bureacracy
[13:28] <Hobbsee> \sh: it was a quiet for a long time.
[13:29] <sebner> \sh: btw, wb
[13:29] <\sh> TBH, we can't force kmos to not use freenode services, until someone from canonical buys the network ,->, but I would be happy, if we can ignore him only, that's it...all technical solutions will not help us to help him with his social problems
[13:30]  * Hobbsee shrugs.  it's out of my hands now :)
[13:31] <ScottK2> \sh: I'm well beyond worrying about his social problems as long as he has them elsewhere.
[13:31]  * \sh hopes that this is not bringing back any stress into this community :(
[13:32] <\sh> ScottK2: that's what I mean, we can't k-line him...the only way is to ignore
[13:32] <ScottK2> \sh: As long as he can't speak.  I don't care if he's in channel.
[13:34] <ScottK2> It appears to me that the best way to get an IRC ban removed is to make a new LP account and go against what the MC asks.
[13:35] <persia> Well, LP accounts and IRC bans aren't related, and any attempts at direct contribution from Marco will not currently be well received.
[13:36] <ScottK2> persia: Just look at action and reaction.  You may separate those in your head, but that's the net effect.
[13:36] <Hobbsee> mail sent.
[13:36] <persia> ScottK: These are coincidence, but I can see how they may be linked.
[13:39] <ScottK2> I agree that the timing is coincidental, but what has happened has happened
[13:40] <\sh> whooza....nexuiz hit debian incoming
[13:40] <Hobbsee> ScottK2: the LP account was unrelated.  i've been asked to help figure ways to deal with the ban evasion, too.  i presume you are as well
[13:41] <ScottK2> Hobbsee: They are separate issues from an Ubuntu management perspective, but the net result is the guy evades the ban and he gets his IRC restored.
[13:42] <ScottK2> Hobbsee: No.  I haven't been asked.
[13:42] <Hobbsee> ScottK2: the two were coincidental.
[13:42] <ScottK2> Yet what happened happened.
[13:43] <Hobbsee> sure, but you're putting words into people's mouths, which happen to be accurate, if you insist there's a link.
[13:43] <Hobbsee> er, which happen *not* to be accurate.
[13:43] <Hobbsee> which is dangerous
[13:44] <ScottK2> I don't mean to imply that anything about the timing is intentional.
[13:45] <\sh> ScottK2: you can always overcome an irc channel ban...
[13:46] <ScottK2> \sh: Agreed, but that was actually working.  Things have been so much nicer here since.
[13:46] <\sh> if you don#t hang onto your nick, you just forget about it choose a new one, reg it, push no realname in it...etc.
[13:46] <ScottK2> I think the whole atmosphere of MOTU has improved.
[13:46] <ScottK2> Agreed.
[13:46] <\sh> ScottK2: for sure...
[13:46] <\sh> ScottK2: but I don't think kmos would leave his nickname behind, just because of ubuntu :)
[13:47] <\sh> but there was a decision, and this decision is now at stake
[13:47] <Hobbsee> ScottK2: i think it would be wrong to assume that the MC would not have seen the change since he's left, and not work in the best interest of MOTU to keep it more productive.
[13:48] <apachelogger> uhm, lintian calls writing GTK instead of GTK+ a spelling-error
[13:48] <apachelogger> I wonder if it does the same with QT instead of Qt :P
[13:48] <\sh> apachelogger: if not, send diff ;)
[13:49] <\sh> but as we have motu release here...
[13:50] <\sh> ScottK2: Hobbsee sistpoty|work : do we need for this patch (bug #198861) an FFe?
[13:51] <\sh> bah...ubuto is dead ;)
[13:51] <\sh> and can't parse data
[13:51] <\sh> bug #198861
[13:51] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 198861 in claws-mail "There's no flag to enable hildon interface when building for lpia" [Wishlist,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/198861
[13:51] <\sh> ah now
[13:52] <ScottK2> Hobbsee: I'm really not very knowledgeable about all the different councils.  Nor am I particularly interested in the bureacracy and frictions between the various bits that have removed what I consider something very helpful.
[13:52] <ScottK2> \sh: I'd say not.
[13:53] <\sh> ScottK2: well, I ported the patch now to 3.3.1 but I'm not sure how I could test it without the hardware (the changes are on input side) ... even with the lpia environment running ... this is not a thing we can test without the hardware
[13:53] <Hobbsee> \sh: don't think so
[13:53] <ScottK2> \sh: Is there any regression risk with the patch?
[13:54] <\sh> ScottK2: well, it changes some behaviour of upstream it looks like...
[13:54] <\sh> ScottK2: that's why I pushed lool and adilson for an FFe...because I don't really know the difference in this maemo stuff and touchpads
[13:54] <ScottK2> \sh: If you can test that there's not a regression, then I think actually working would be considered a bonus.
[13:54] <\sh> s/pads/screens/
[13:55] <\sh> ScottK2: well, i386,amd64 are running and compiling..no prob...but I can't test on lpia...but ah come on, I'll try to start it in my lpia environment and check its running
[13:55]  * \sh needs a smoke and has meeting...bbl
[13:57] <bddebian> Heya gang
[13:58] <ScottK2> heya bddebian.
[13:58] <bddebian> Hi ScottK2
[14:00] <sebner> ahoi bddebian
[14:00] <bddebian> Hello sebner
[14:04] <sistpoty|work> hi bddebian
[14:06] <bddebian> Heya sistpoty|work
[14:27] <sebner> persia: I should join 10-a-day ;)
[14:28] <persia> sebner: Don't bother counting.  I've had bugs that took me years to fix, and hours where I could process 100.
[14:28] <bddebian> persia!!
[14:28] <persia> bdfreese!!!
[14:29] <\sh> re
[14:29] <sebner> persia: no I just like it. It's funny. though after >5 sync requests it's gettin boring ^^
[14:29] <sebner> wb \sh
[14:29] <bddebian> Heya \sh
[14:29] <Hobbsee> ScottK2: so now persia gets the blame.
[14:29] <bddebian> persia: Did you see that I got a working attal uploaded?
[14:29] <\sh> hey bddebian :)
[14:29] <persia> bddebian: I saw the upload.  I didn't know it worked.  Congrats!
[14:30] <\sh> well, 5-bugs-a-day is something for new contributors, I see it as a challenge...but funny to see, that pitti e.g. is participating ;)
[14:32] <\sh> Hobbsee: /window 13
[14:32] <\sh> grmpf
[14:32] <\sh> hehe
[14:32] <Hobbsee> heh
[14:32] <Hobbsee> fail.
[14:32] <\sh> what I wanted to say...
[14:33] <\sh> Hobbsee: please review bug #204016 (I want to have it from my todo list) and
[14:33] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 204016 in zend-framework "[FFe] zend-framework 1.5.0" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/204016
[14:34] <\sh> and it wasn't window 13 but 14...
[14:38] <sebner> Are bad copyright informations a reason for syncing a new version?
[14:39] <slytherin> sebner: sure why not?
[14:39] <sebner> slytherin: that's why I asked ;)
[14:39] <persia> sebner: Depends on how bad.  In most cases, yes, as correct copyright attribution is required for most of the licenses we use, and otherwise it becomes undistributable.
[14:39] <sebner> persia: in debian it's marked as "Important"
[14:42] <persia> sebner: That is typically not enough to make it undistributable.  See http://www.debian.org/Bugs/Developer#severities.  I'd recommend first closing all the critical bugs, then grave, and going down the list that way.
[14:43] <sebner> persia: hmm. ^^ I choose bugs by hazard ^^
[14:43] <slytherin> persia: FYI ... I will be able to find enough time tomorrow and day after that. I am planning to fix some FTBFS and also planning to update bluez-gnome. Please let me know if you think there is anything more important pending.
[14:44] <persia> slytherin: FTBFS, rcbugs, and NBS are the most important, from my point of view.  Updates should be avoided unless there is some critical regression or bugfix that we need.
[14:45] <slytherin> persia: it is bug fix release only. But now sure if corresponding bugs have been logged in LP
[14:46] <persia> slytherin: bugfix updates are good.  The importance of such an update is strongly related to the importance of the fixed bugs.
[14:47] <slytherin> persia: Ok. Let's talk in my night. Can you please tell me your timezone?
[14:48] <persia> UTC+9
[14:49] <slytherin> persia: Cool. Mine is +5:30. Not much difference. :-)
[14:49] <slytherin> persia: Are you located in Australia?
[14:49] <sebner> persia: Bedtime :P . to make you happy I'll take the grave ones from now on :)
[14:49] <persia> slytherin: Tokyo
[14:49] <sistpoty|work> geser: ghc6 finally made it on sparc, I guess we'll only need some give-backs now for the libs :)
[14:50] <persia> sebner: If you can close all the grave ones, Hardy will be much improved :)
[14:50] <sebner> persia: I only against all grave ones? ^^
[14:50] <sebner> *alone
[14:52] <persia> sebner: Don't be alone then.  There are 207 other people in the channel: I suspect if you were willing to explain the process, quite a few would be happy to help.
[14:53] <sebner> persia: don't steal me the fun :P I have 1 month left :D
[14:55] <persia> sebner: There's all the Severe bugs too, don't forget.  And if you run out of those, there's all of the really-fix-it bugs as well...
[14:56] <sebner> persia: ^^ yeah I know. It was just a joke. But also mind to search people for clearing u-u-s :P
[14:57] <DktrKranz2> oh noooo! more merges from sebner :)
[14:57] <sebner> DktrKranz2: hrhr
[14:57] <sebner> DktrKranz2: How many did I today so far?
[14:58] <DktrKranz2> dunno, but queue is +4 long since last time, and there are yours :)
[14:58] <sebner> well
[14:58] <sebner> I should be ~10 now ^^
[14:58] <sebner> persia: I love ubuntuwire :) thx for the hint
[14:58]  * DktrKranz2 hides
[14:59] <sebner> DktrKranz2: yeah 99% are syncs. I suppose easy ones ^^
[15:00] <persia> sebner: Just remember to document the RC bug in the sync request bug description: it makes it a lot easier for the sponsor.
[15:01] <sebner> persia: damn. I have to edit 10 bugs now ^^
[15:01] <sebner> persia: But it doesn't matter. DktrKranz2 is willing to approve all :P
[15:03] <persia> sebner: It does matter, because the archive admin needs to approve it, and the release team will want the documentation for review if there are any complications.
[15:03]  * sebner seems to suck at making jokes :\
[15:08] <geser> sistpoty|work: good, wasn't there already a giveback of haskell-* on sparc because I've got some emails about build failures on sparc?
[15:08] <sistpoty|work> geser: yes, but not all came trough as it seems
[15:09] <sistpoty|work> Hobbsee: can you give back packages? if so, please give back haskell-regex-base on sparc, thanks
[15:09] <sebner> geser: I merges haskell-opengl and it built fine on sparc
[15:09] <sebner> *merged
[15:12] <sistpoty|work> geser: seems like some libraries (e.g. haskell-regex-base) have versioned depends on the transitioned libraries. Hence I guess that soyuz marked that build as failed (conflicting ghc6 versions in build-dependencies) instead of dep-wait and probably won't autorecover from this
[15:12] <sistpoty|work> don't have versioned depends even
[15:15] <RainCT> dholbach: thanks for your heads up (for the packaging jam) :)
[15:16] <jpatrick> RainCT: heads up?
[15:20] <RainCT> jpatrick: https://lists.lafarga.cpl.upc.edu/pipermail/ubuntucat-equip/2008-March/001024.html
[15:20] <jpatrick> RainCT: let's go and make it rock \o/
[15:21] <dholbach> "En Daniel està content per això del Packaging Jam" :-)
[15:21]  * dholbach hugs RainCT and jpatrick
[15:21]  * jpatrick hugs dholbach back
[15:21] <dholbach> I'm sure it's going to be great :)
[15:22]  * jpatrick goes to read the links
[15:22] <\sh> RainCT: wine has the correct catalan translations now?
[15:22]  * RainCT hugs dholbach back
[15:22] <RainCT> \sh: yes, thanks :)
[15:22] <dholbach> jpatrick: I hope they're worthwhile - if there's anything that needs improvement let me know
[15:22] <\sh> RainCT: just wanted to know :) great
[15:25] <jpatrick> dholbach: it simply looks great
[15:26] <dholbach> bring it on! :)
[15:26] <dholbach> when is it going to be?
[15:28] <RainCT> dholbach: the 26th april
[15:28] <dholbach> RainCT, jpatrick: where are you announce it?
[15:28] <RainCT> dholbach: (during our Hardy release party :))
[15:29] <jpatrick> dholbach: haven't yet, RainCT just mailed the LoCo teams mailing list to see if people were interested
[15:33] <sebner> RainCT: Gbrainy is in incoming. fine :D
[15:33] <RainCT> dholbach: Beside that mail, I'll blog about it (in Catalan), and as you've seen it has a page in the wiki (linked from the Release Party's page)
[15:34] <RainCT> sebner: yes, bugged my sponsor this morning :)
[15:34]  * RainCT hugs slomo__ 
[15:34]  * sebner hugs slomo__ too :)
[15:36] <sebner> \sh: even better. nexuiz is in incoming :D :D :D
[15:36] <dholbach> RainCT: also get it on MOTU/Events and the google map :)
[15:36] <RainCT> dholbach: ah yes, it's in MOTU/Events already :)
[15:36] <dholbach> SUPER
[15:36] <dholbach> you guys are pretty well organised :)
[15:37] <RainCT> thanks :)
[15:37] <jpatrick> :-)
[15:38] <sebner> Hardy will rock. Hardy will have nexuiz 2.4 :D :D :D
[15:39] <RainCT> heh
[15:39] <RainCT> nexuiz.. tried that like a year ago but don't remember about it... does it have a pointer to know where you shot? :P
[15:40] <sebner> RainCT: xD yes
[15:40] <\sh> sebner: yepp...19:52 UTC it will hit the archive pools...so tonight I'm filing sync reqs
[15:40] <RainCT> sebner: ok, then I might try it again :P
[15:40]  * sebner hugs \sh 
[15:40] <sebner> RainCT: hrhr
[15:40] <\sh> sebner: well, anyways, testbuilding the debian version before I file
[15:41] <sebner> \sh: yeah ^^ but it will be in hardy (veryl likely) and that makes me happy
[15:41] <RainCT> sebner: I've seen more than one of those games without one.. It was impossible to shot at the right place lol
[15:42] <sebner> RainCT: rofl ^^ but I'm excited. I'm interested in the changes from 2.3 > 2.4
[15:42] <\sh> sebner: the new starters screen looks like the scale plugin from compiz or apple
[15:42] <\sh> sebner: sadly, nexuiz doesn't work with compiz and it crashes..so be sure to disable desktop effects
[15:43] <sebner> \sh: not started by default ..
[15:47] <jpatrick> dholbach: one thing, how do I add a location to Google Maps?
[15:49] <dholbach> jpatrick: do you have a gmail account? if not, I can add the address for you
[15:50] <jpatrick> dholbach: davies.jpatrick
[15:50] <dholbach> you search for an address until the bubble pops-up
[15:50] <dholbach> then you can click on the  "add to map"  link
[15:50] <dholbach> or something
[15:51] <dholbach> or on the left hand side it is
[16:08] <slomo__> siretart: yay, yet another new ffmpeg ;)
[16:10] <siretart> slomo__: well, it's not actually 'new'. it rather the upload of accumulated bugfixes
[16:10] <siretart> slomo__: btw, are you in the pkg-multimedia group?
[16:10] <slomo__> siretart: yes, still looks good :)
[16:10] <slomo__> siretart: nope
[16:12] <RainCT> dholbach: «We could not save your changes because editing is currently not allowed in this country» :S
[16:12] <dholbach> WHAT?!
[16:13] <dholbach> can you give me the address and I'll add it? :)
[16:13] <RainCT> dholbach: Carrer Santa Teresa, núm. 3-5. 08140 - Caldes de Montbui
[16:13] <jdong> RainCT: what told you that?
[16:14] <RainCT> dholbach: Name of place: Biblioteca Municipal, Website: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/CatalanTeam/FestaHardy/PackagingJam
[16:14] <RainCT> jdong: Google Maps
[16:14] <jdong> RainCT: cool! :D
[16:15] <jdong> GRRRRRRRRR
[16:15]  * jdong contains his boiling blood....
[16:15] <jdong> https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/gutsy-backports/+bug/191796
[16:15] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 191796 in gutsy-backports "Please backport firefox-3.0 3.0~b4 final" [Undecided,Triaged]
[16:15] <jdong> read the last comment.
[16:15]  * jdong cries and cuts himself...
[16:15] <ScottK> jdong: You could suggest he file a removal bug for firefox and everyone do it that way.
[16:16] <jdong> lol
[16:16] <rockstar_> ScottK, ha!
[16:16] <RainCT> lol
[16:17] <dholbach> RainCT, jpatrick: added :-))))
[16:19] <RainCT> dholbach: thanks :)
[16:19] <dholbach> more Packaging Jams!
[16:20]  * ScottK2 is still waiting for the bugfix jam.
[16:20] <sebner> ScottK: start now :P
[16:20] <dholbach> ScottK2: I'm planning to hold them in Berlin regularly soon :)
[16:21] <ScottK2> dholbach: Sounds good.
[16:21] <dholbach> I guess it'll happen for intrepid :)
[16:28] <jpatrick> dholbach: thanks :)
[16:29] <emgent> dholbach: i worked in bug #157406 because Raúl Pedrochedont reply to
[16:29] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 157406 in smarty "gosa: vanilla installation results in "Call to undefined function get_template_path()" when accesing URL" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/157406
[16:29] <emgent> your comment.
[16:30] <emgent> can I attack debdiffs or i should wait author comment ?
[16:30] <emgent> s/reply/dont reply/
[16:30] <slomo__> siretart: is the plan to focus on that svn snapshot for unstable first and then maybe update to a newer one? or do you focus on updating to a newer one first?
[16:30] <dholbach> emgent: do it :)
[16:31] <emgent> cool
[16:31] <siretart> slomo__: we currently focus on getting an newer snapshot ready for experimental. this will require new processing
[16:31] <RainCT> is there something wrong with intel cards and compiz on hardy or is it just me? :P
[16:40] <sebner> dholbach: http://www.pro-linux.de/news/2008/12477.html
[16:41] <dholbach> nice
[16:42] <sebner> dholbach: ubuntu »Bug Squashing Party« in berlin led by daniel holbach :P
[17:28] <dholbach> have some great easter days
[17:28] <sebner> dholbach: you too :)
[17:28] <sebner> dholbach: but no easter bugs :P
[17:29] <dholbach> see you guys!
[17:29] <sebner> hf! :)
[17:36]  * sistpoty|work heads home
[17:36] <sistpoty|work> cya
[17:37] <AstralJava> What about easter bunnies?
[17:45] <slytherin> Can any of the buildd admins give back nautilus-share?
[17:48] <slytherin> Hobbsee: Can you please give back nautilus-share?
[17:48] <geser> slytherin: better ask in #ubuntu-devel about give-backs
[17:49] <slytherin> geser: tried, no one answering there? Can you tell me name of any buildd admins?
[17:50] <geser> slytherin: I usually ask Mithrandir or pitti, but both seem to be away
[17:50] <RainCT> is there some script to ack sync requests?
[17:50] <slytherin> geser: I will ask them anyway. They will do when they come back
[17:51] <sebner> RainCT: do you want to ACK my ones? ^^
[17:52] <RainCT> sebner: yeh :)
[17:52] <RainCT> doing that right now
[17:52] <sebner> RainCT: hmm I made 15 contributions today. Have fun ^^
[17:53] <sebner> RainCT: And trust is good but control is better. So no script! :)
[17:54] <Iulian> It seems that RainCT is having some fun tonight ;)
[17:54] <sebner> Iulian: everybody is invited ;)
[17:54] <Iulian> Free party?
[17:54] <sebner> Bug party :P
[17:55] <Iulian> Ah
[17:55] <Iulian> :)
[17:55] <RainCT> heh
[17:56] <james_w> a bitesize important bug if anyone wants it: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/git-core/+bug/196846
[17:56] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 196846 in git-core "gitk requires wish8.5 but depends on tk8.4" [Undecided,Confirmed]
[17:56] <Iulian> sebner: Ohh, you're the boy from hell, didn't notice that you've changed your nick. :)
[17:56] <Iulian> God bless Launchpad.
[17:57] <sebner> Iulian: ^^ you know me? Why did you notice?
[17:59] <Iulian> sebner: Why did I notice? can't answer that question. ;)
[18:00] <sebner> Iulian: xD
[18:00] <sebner> RainCT: Great. 1 done. 14 remaining :)
[18:06] <macd> denconf has a notification type called teletype that works as I expect it to, but there is no way to set this as the type when doing dpkg-reconfigure debconf, can I set this anywhere else to be the default type?
[18:14] <RainCT> omg is python-launchpad-bugs slow :P
[18:15]  * RainCT decides he won't write a script :P
[18:16] <RainCT> sebner: btw, are you going to file sync requests for all packages with "some fixes"? :P
[18:19] <LaserJock> anybody seen norsetto or sistpoty lately?
[18:20] <RainCT> LaserJock: sispoty was around some hours ago
[18:20] <RainCT> *sistpoty
[18:22] <RainCT> LaserJock: actually, he left 50 minutes ago
[18:22] <LaserJock> hmm
[18:23] <sebner> RainCT: maybe :P They are on ubuntuwire with "grave" and "serious" so don't complain :P
[18:24] <sebner> LaserJock: I haven't seen norsetto recently here. I always write him mials
[18:24] <sebner> *mails
[18:24] <LaserJock> sebner: are you talking about gchempaint?
[18:24] <sebner> Lamego: and about the 10 other sync requests ^^
[18:25] <sebner> Lamego: ah sry
[18:25] <sebner> LaserJock: same message.
[18:26] <LaserJock> dang, that's a lot of bugs
[18:26] <LaserJock> :(
[18:27] <sebner> LaserJock: well, persia told me to clean ubuntuwire. So I'm doing it ^^
[18:28] <sebner> RainCT: you are fast :)
[18:28] <LaserJock> well, I'm slightly worried about the Ubuntu Archive queue we're building up
[18:29] <sebner> LaserJock: O_o I don't think 1 contributor (I) is building up the whole queue ...
[18:29] <LaserJock> sebner: I never said you were
[18:29] <LaserJock> I'm speaking in general
[18:29] <sebner> LaserJock: ah :)
[18:30] <LaserJock> the gfortran transition in particular could be interesting
[18:31] <LaserJock> for instance I need to sync packages that depend on other package that need to be synced that depend on still other packages that need to be synced
[18:31] <LaserJock> I *was* gonna wait until the first were synced and then request the next, and so on
[18:32] <LaserJock> but if Ubuntu Archive's turn-around time is not gonna be great then I should maybe do all the requests now and look after the dep-waits if need be
[18:34] <sebner> LaserJock: how many are working at archive guys acutally?
[18:35] <LaserJock> I think there are roughly 5 that do the sync processing, 1 for each day
[18:36] <LaserJock> but as this is a really busy time I'm not sure how much they're gonna be able to process
[18:36]  * RainCT wonders why TV gets worse every day :P
[18:36] <sebner> RainCT: a message from God to watch less tv, stay healthy and work for ubuntu :)
[18:37] <sebner> LaserJock: I suppose all are Canoncial employees?
[18:37] <LaserJock> sebner: not all, but most
[18:37] <LaserJock> https://launchpad.net/~ubuntu-archive/+members
[18:38] <slytherin> fix for sugar-pippy-activity FTBFS - bug 204363
[18:38] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 204363 in sugar-pippy-activity "[patch] Fix for FTBFS" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/204363
[18:38] <sebner> LaserJock: well. except sarah ^^
[18:38] <LaserJock> slangasek: were archive admins processing the queue during Beta Freeze?
[18:39]  * RainCT also wonders why syncs have to be done by archive admins
[18:40] <LaserJock> why wouldn't they?
[18:40] <slangasek> LaserJock: processing which queue? there are many :)
[18:40] <slangasek> the unapproved queue was getting processed, though I don't think it has been in the past 12-18 hours
[18:40] <RainCT> slangasek: bugs to which ubuntu-archive is subscribed
[18:40] <LaserJock> slangasek: the sync queue
[18:40] <slangasek> I don't know
[18:41] <LaserJock> and backport queue and the removal queue .. :-)
[18:41] <slangasek> I didn't have any free cycles to handle my own archive day on Monday
[18:41] <slangasek> and I haven't looked at it since
[18:41] <LaserJock> that was my guess, busy time for people
[18:41] <slangasek> also, there are only 4 of us on rotation, Thursday is a freebie day
[18:42] <LaserJock> ah
[18:42] <slangasek> (which means: upload on Sunday so it's not an issue ;)
[18:42] <LaserJock> heh
[18:44] <LaserJock> slangasek: do happen to have any rough idea how many bug you can process in an archive day?
[18:44]  * RainCT hopes that he isn't supposed to read the complete changelog from bug #204244 :)
[18:44] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 204244 in snort "Please sync snort 2.7.0-13 from Debian(Unstable)" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/204244
[18:46] <sebner> RainCT: go go go :P
[18:46] <slangasek> LaserJock: nope
[18:46] <slangasek> LaserJock: more when we're not in a freeze and I have to tread more carefully
[18:47] <LaserJock> RainCT: it's a good idea to read it
[18:47] <LaserJock> slangasek: sure
[18:47] <jdong> RainCT: that's not nearly as bad as some of the debdiffs I've submitted before :)
[18:47] <jdong> RainCT: my Xgl one two release cycles ago was on the order of MB's, post-feature-freeze
[18:48] <sebner> jdong: huh? I'm responsible for the snort sync. so what's so bad?
[18:49] <jdong> sebner: just there's a relatively big changelog introduced by the sync; nothing inherently bad just overwhelming for those who have to review it
[18:49] <sebner> RainCT: we simply should sync it more often :)
[18:49] <sebner> jdong: possible solution?
[18:50] <RainCT> jdong: heh
[18:50] <jdong> sebner: I like that solution :)
[18:50] <sebner> jdong: ^^ but if you say that it's hard for the reviewer ...
[18:50] <sebner> jdong: ah you mean to sync it more often?
[18:51] <jdong> sebner: right. Or highlight out any changelog entries you think would be signifcant to the reviewer to look at
[18:51] <jdong> ScottK2: shameless prod for firefox 3 backport :)
[18:51] <LaserJock> well, it is nice to read the whole thing
[18:52] <LaserJock> in case something important has changed
[18:57] <nxvl> can someone explain me how the XubuntuY.Z versions work
[18:57] <nxvl> y know that on debian a package versioned by -X is versiones as -X.Y if it is a NM upload
[18:57] <nxvl> but on ubuntu why to we use ubuntuX.Y?
[18:58] <nxvl> in which cases i mean
[19:01] <slangasek> nxvl: in cases that someone is misreading the guidelines, I think :)
[19:03] <nxvl> mm
[19:03] <sebner> wb sistpoty
[19:03] <nxvl> slangasek: i think there must be a why
[19:03] <sistpoty> hi folks
[19:03] <sistpoty> re sebner
[19:04] <slangasek> nxvl: I don't believe so
[19:05] <slangasek> nxvl: I think it's just people thinking they should follow the Debian NMU versioning scheme when they shouldn't
[19:06] <nxvl> slangasek: couldn't be for security updates?
[19:06] <slangasek> well, versioning of security updates has special considerations since the version numbers have to still come out in order, yes
[19:07] <slangasek> I don't remember seeing the ubuntuX.Y for security updates, but I also haven't looked too closely
[19:07] <nxvl> i have see it for first time today on mysql (gutsy)
[19:10] <nxvl> slangasek: jdong has just answer, it is for security & stable uploads
[19:10] <slangasek> right
[19:13] <sebner> Would any MOTU unsubscribe u-u-s from bug #197425 ? Thanks
[19:13] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 197425 in streamtuner "Merge streamtuner 0.99.99-11 from Debian(Unstable)" [Wishlist,Invalid] https://launchpad.net/bugs/197425
[19:14] <nxvl> sebner: we has reach BF long time ago
[19:14] <nxvl> sebner: that's the why
[19:14] <nxvl> err
[19:14] <nxvl> DF
[19:14] <sistpoty> freeflying: can you attach a diffstat/diff of upstream changelog, build log and install log for bug #193676? Thanks!
[19:14] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 193676 in lunar-applet "Please sync lunar-applet 1.8-2 (universe) from Debian unstable (main)" [Wishlist,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/193676
[19:14] <sebner> nxvl: DF?
[19:14] <sistpoty> freeflying: (and then set the bug back to new)
[19:15] <nxvl> sebner: Debian Import Freeze
[19:16] <nxvl> sebner: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HardyReleaseSchedule
[19:16] <sebner> nxvl: ehm I don't really know what you want to tell me
[19:17] <nxvl> sebner: that in this part of the release circle we don't import from debian anymore
[19:17] <nxvl> sebner: unless it's a critical import including a security or critical bug fix
[19:17] <sebner> nxvl: and what has this todo with my wish that a motu unscribe u-u-s from this bug report?
[19:18] <nxvl> sebner: that the u-u-s won't sponsor it until intrepid import time comes
[19:19] <nxvl> and that will be on May the 1st
[19:19] <sebner> nxvl: It's a normal merge. they would sponsor it. and I said a motu should UNSUBSCRIBE
[19:19] <nxvl> oh!
[19:19] <nxvl> sorry fot that
[19:20] <nxvl> i din't read good
[19:20] <sebner> ^^
[19:20] <sebner> np
[19:20] <nxvl> i thought you where asking why HAS it been unsuscribed
[19:20] <sebner> ^^
[19:24] <sebner> DktrKranz: buona sera
[19:25] <DktrKranz> sebner, G.A.
[19:25] <siretart> slomo__: jdong: FYI, I've just uploaded our work in progress ffmpeg-free package to the motumedia PPA for hardy.
[19:26] <sebner> DktrKranz: :) RainCT did a lot of work on my packages ;)
[19:27] <DktrKranz> God bless RainCT
[19:27] <sebner> ^^
[19:27] <sebner> DktrKranz: no plans for overtaking? ^^
[19:28] <siretart> slomo__: jdong the idea is now to fixup that package, and reupload all reverse dependencies of ffmpeg with bumped build depends
[19:28]  * siretart off for today, though. cu tomorrow!
[19:28] <DktrKranz> sebner, it depends... did you already take every RC bug? :)
[19:28] <sebner> siretart: good night
[19:28] <DktrKranz> if not, I'll have some :P
[19:28] <sebner> ^^
[19:29] <sebner> DktrKranz: btw, would you mind unsubrice u-u-s from bug #197425
[19:29] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 197425 in streamtuner "Merge streamtuner 0.99.99-11 from Debian(Unstable)" [Wishlist,Invalid] https://launchpad.net/bugs/197425
[19:35] <jdong> siretart: fun :) sweet
[19:37] <slytherin> Can anyone review debdiff for sugar-pippy-activity FTBFS?
[19:43] <RainCT> DktrKranz: anything new about tapiir?
[19:43] <DktrKranz> RainCT, I'll push it again
[19:43] <DktrKranz> RainCT, I answered you earlier, but I think I had IRC lag, so you probably haven't seen my reply :)
[19:44] <sistpoty> pochu: can you attach a diffstat/install log/build log for bug #199218 please? thanks!
[19:44] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 199218 in emesene "[FeatureFreeze Exception] Please sync emesene (universe) 1.0~r1137-1 from Debian unstable (main)" [Undecided,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/199218
[19:44]  * RainCT hasn't seen it
[19:45] <sebner> sistpoty: nice reply. Are you looking for motu which is member in ubuntu studio-dev or just a member of ubuntu studio-dev?
[19:45] <DktrKranz> RainCT, I supposed so. I had problems with pbuilder: http://debomatic.linuxdc.it/unstable/logs/update.20080319_2256
[19:46] <sistpoty> sebner: I'm looking for someone responsible for audacious from ubuntustudio (just asked on #ubuntustudio, not too sure if that's the right channel though)
[19:47] <sebner> sistpoty: ah ok. and if you can't find one we should ask persia (he is in this team)
[19:47] <ScottK2> sistpoty: TheMuso is invovled in ubuntu-studion and motu-release, so I'd point at him.
[19:47] <ScottK2> persia is currently sleeping
[19:47] <sebner> ScottK: we already tried
[19:47] <sistpoty> ScottK2: yes, he would be my preference as well :)
[19:47] <sebner> ScottK: yeah but we are waiting since days so a few hours more or less doesn't matter since we can't find someone other
[19:49] <DktrKranz> RainCT, I'm trying again
[20:03] <DktrKranz> RainCT, on sid it's OK:  http://debomatic.linuxdc.it/unstable/result/tapiir_0.7.1-9build1/tapiir_0.7.1-9build1_i386.build
[20:03] <sistpoty> ScottK2, Hobbsee: any objections, that I hand bug #202468 over to the mozilla team (and unsubscribe motu-release)?
[20:03] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 202468 in ubuntu "FFe: update swfdec-* to 0.6" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/202468
[20:03] <DktrKranz> RainCT, so we need to check if our library is broken :)
[20:10] <tbf> hmm... my package seems to waste alot of time on dh_scrollkeeper during installation...
[20:11] <tbf> is it possible to tell dh_scrollkeeper, that there really just is an english variant of the manual?
[20:16] <sistpoty> sebner: do you have a package for testing ready for xmoto? *g*
[20:18] <sistpoty> sebner: nevermind, I'll just test-build myself and will do intense testing now ;)
[20:19] <sebner> sistpoty: hrmpf. I asked friends and nobody wanted it. So it's not on my PPA. But locally
[20:23] <sebner> sistpoty: and thx for testing :)
[20:28] <sistpoty> sebner: heh
[20:31] <tbf> sistpoty, superm1, RainCT: so after hackfest delay and some more testing i've uploaded gnome-lirc-properties 0.2.5 to REVU.
[20:31] <tbf> ...the webservice at fluendo.com also is working now.
[20:39] <tbf> uch? 0.2.5-0ubuntu1 <= 0.2.5rc3-0ubuntu1~ppa1?
[20:39] <azeem> yes
[20:39] <tbf> lool: so which would have been the proper name?
[20:40] <azeem> 0.2.5~rc3-0ubuntu1
[20:40] <tbf> azeem: uch.
[20:41]  * tbf starts to get bad dreams from packaging...
[20:49] <sebner> sistpoty: can you give me already a statement?
[20:50] <sistpoty> sebner: not yet, I just installed my test-builded packages, but was looking at a few more bugs before testing ;)
[20:50] <sebner> sistpoty: oh. k
[20:54] <sebner> sistpoty: but if you're just playing the whole time it doesn't matter. I like that game too :P
[20:55] <sistpoty> sebner: heh
[20:55] <sistpoty> sebner: the second level seems buggy, (I can't go to the left, were the flower is, seems like an invisible wall :P)
[20:56] <sebner> sistpoty: you need pratice, pratice, practice :P
[20:56] <sistpoty> sebner: heh, I was good at xmoto... once, when I was still young *g*
[20:56] <sebner> sistpoty: there isn't a "second" level. you can download thousands of levels
[20:57] <sebner> sistpoty: xmoto exits since 20 years? O_o :P :P :P
[20:57] <sistpoty> sebner: second (which comes after you choose all levels, and give up on the first once *g*)
[20:57] <sistpoty> :P
[20:57] <sebner> hrhr
[20:58] <lool> tbf: You found out I think
[20:58] <sebner> sistpoty: I play it everyday. well. I try 5-6 levels. then I always loose and quit xD
[20:58] <tbf> lool: well, azeem told me....
[20:58] <lool> tbf: Usually, append ~something for a backport to an older dist or a pre-upload of something that will be uploaded properly later on
[20:58] <tbf> ...that i messed up that ppa once again
[20:58] <lool> And +something when deriving from somewhere and changing things
[20:59] <sebner> sistpoty: YEAH YEAH!!!  ACK ACK ACK for audacious-* :D :D :D
[20:59] <sistpoty> sebner: yes, I've asked in #ubuntustudio-devel ;)
[21:00] <sebner> sistpoty: this is the right channel I suppose ^^ Thanks. Just waiting for persia then :)
[21:00] <sistpoty> sebner: btw.: why the change in xmoto.desktop?
[21:00] <tbf> lool: would debuild even pickup a gnome-lirc-properties-0.2.5~rc3.orig.tar.gz tarball?
[21:01] <sebner> sistpoty: bug #196878
[21:01] <sistpoty> sebner: the tryexec seems unnecessary to me, and the debian icon (w.o. suffix) seems also better to me (then you can override it with any image with the same name)
[21:01] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 196878 in xmoto "Modified .desktop for easier use with submenus" [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/196878
[21:01] <ScottK2> tbf: It should.
[21:02] <sebner> ScottK: ah you have also ACK rights *GG*
[21:03] <sistpoty> sebner: but xmoto.desktop doesn't have any change in regards to that bug (I'm not talking about xmoto-edit.desktop)
[21:03] <lool> tbf: Sure, why not?
[21:04] <tbf> lool: cause all that artificial version numbers look like black magic to me? :-D
[21:04] <sebner> sistpoty: well, this upload introduced the change in the xmoto.desktop file. I kept this change while merging
[21:04] <tbf> ScottK2, lool: but indeed it seems to pick it up
[21:05] <sistpoty> sebner: then merge intelligent ;)
[21:05] <lool> tbf: So "~" is just a magic way to say it's a snapshot and will sort prior to whatever before
[21:05] <lool> tbf: e.g. 1.0~rc2 is << than 1.0
[21:05] <lool> That's about the only trick
[21:05] <tbf> lool: yup
[21:05] <ScottK2> We use the same magic for backports.
[21:05] <sebner> sistpoty: you could also say. Damn the previous uploader ;)
[21:05] <lool> tbf: I wrote a short UME specific wiki page at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MobileAndEmbedded/PpaVersioning
[21:05] <tbf> well.... now i just have to figure out, how to cleanup the ppa timely
[21:06] <lool> Perhaps it helps you
[21:06] <sistpoty> sebner: heh
[21:06] <tbf> ah! dpkg --compare-versions 1.3-2 '<<' 1.3-3 --- nice
[21:06] <sebner> sistpoty: want a new debdiff?
[21:07] <sistpoty> sebner: you'll need a 2nd ack from motu-release first, don't you? (otherwise yes, because I'd then sponsor it)
[21:08] <sebner> sistpoty: I don't see a difference in waiting for a ACK for uploading now a new one. Maybe except 1 min work if it gets refused (what's not likely)
[21:10] <sebner> sistpoty: + or making
[21:11] <tbf> ah, seems i did something right: package removal request worked for me this time
[21:16] <sistpoty> sebner: well, the difference for me is, that if you got a 2nd ACK, I could just upload ;)
[21:16] <sebner> sistpoty: than it's even better if I upload a new one (already prepared)
[21:17] <sistpoty> heh
[21:23] <RainCT> DktrKranz: the strange thing is that I can build it locally (with the library from Hardy)
[21:23] <albert23> RainCT: tapiir is missing libxext-dev. config.log says: /usr/bin/ld: cannot find -lXext. With libxext-dev installed, tapiir builds.
[21:25] <RainCT> I've to go
[21:25] <RainCT> albert23: thanks, will look at that then
[21:25] <sebner> RainCT: good night and thanks for you work :)
[21:25] <RainCT> sebner: np:)
[21:26] <DktrKranz> damn... I lost RainCT
[21:26] <sebner> DktrKranz: now it's you turn :P
[21:48] <tbf> sistpoty: ok, the package also is "all" instead of "any" now - stupid me
[21:51] <sistpoty> tbf: I'll take a look, once I've finished going through motu-release bugs
[21:51] <tbf> sistpoty: thanks alot
[22:54] <LaserJock> sistpoty: ping
[22:54] <sebner> LaserJock: something to complain :)
[22:55] <LaserJock> certainly not ;-)
[22:56] <sebner> LaserJock: that's fine :) ^^
[22:56] <sistpoty> LaserJock: pong
[22:57] <LaserJock> sistpoty: were you wanting me to ack the gchempaint sync or discuss the FFe merits or ?
[22:57] <LaserJock> I can do both I suppose ;-)
[22:57] <sistpoty> LaserJock: just wanted to know, what you think about the FFe... if it's a straigth ack, am fine as well :)
[22:58] <LaserJock> sistpoty: I think we should do the FFe
[22:58] <sistpoty> LaserJock: great :)
[22:58] <LaserJock> the upstream is very good about making bug-fix only releases
[22:59] <LaserJock> the 0.8.x series is done in a stable branch and there aren't features added
[22:59] <sistpoty> LaserJock: btw., sorry for subscribing you to the wrong bug in the first place, I really messed up with open tabs
[22:59] <LaserJock> sistpoty: no problem at all
[22:59] <LaserJock> I get enough bugmail that it was hardly noticeable
[22:59] <LaserJock> :-)
[23:00] <LaserJock> although I am wondering about the bugmail generated by the gfortran transition bug
[23:00] <LaserJock> bug contacts for any of the packages affected are irreversibly subscribed to the bug
[23:01] <LaserJock> I'm gonna see if we can make it so that bug contacts can unsub from specific bugs
[23:20] <sebner> good night folks :)
[23:32] <RAOF> Right!  I've got me an LVM snapshot of my root.  It's time to play "git bisect xorg-server"!
[23:36] <StevenK> RAOF: To do what?
[23:44] <RAOF> StevenK: To see when bug #194214 was introduced.
[23:45] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 194214 in xorg-server "Keys get "stuck" down" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/194214
[23:45] <RAOF> Somewhere between 1.4 & now :)
[23:53] <Fujitsu> RAOF: I wish you good luck. That bug is annoying.
[23:55] <RAOF> Fujitsu: Yup.  That's why I'm hunting it :)
[23:56] <Fujitsu> RAOF: Did you see the last comment in that bug, narrowing down the versions?
[23:57] <RAOF> Hm, no I didn't.
[23:57] <RAOF> Oh, right.  No, I knew that.