L1pehi everyone00:01
DPicalrighty, so how many people are here for the marketing team meeting?00:02
xnox3? =D00:03
DPici hope the DST change didn't confuse people, emmajane was patient enough to wait an hour00:04
emmajaneI'm not sure how long I can stay though. :/00:04
* xnox 's clock bangs midnight00:05
DPicxnox: she came at 7pm EST when it's really 8pm EST now that daylight savings time is over00:05
xnoxAhhhh now it makes sence00:05
DPichere's the agenda: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MarketingTeam/Meetings/Minutes/2008-03-2600:06
DPicit's short but i'm sure well have more to talk about00:06
boredandbloggingi gotta run soon00:07
boredandbloggingso let me mention the gerry carr thing00:07
boredandbloggingwe might get a heads up on the 8.04 press release00:07
boredandbloggingminus the official canonical quotes00:07
boredandbloggingso we can pass them out to locos to translate as needed00:08
boredandbloggingor stick them in press kits or whatever00:08
DPicso will we get an email when that happens?00:08
boredandbloggingyeah, I'll email the marketing and loco-contacts lists00:09
boredandbloggingif gerry doesn't do it himself00:09
DPicdo you have any idea when this will happen?00:09
xnox23 April 23:59 UTC? =D00:09
boredandbloggingyeah, I'll start bugging him in a couple of weeks00:10
boredandbloggingbut yeah, I want to get it as soon as possible too00:10
boredandbloggingthats all I got00:11
DPicalright. and since it seems like a couple people are having to leave early, is this time generally bad or is it just today? would it help to have meetings one hour earlier?00:11
boredandbloggingtime is fine00:11
emmajanean hour earlier would have been great :)00:11
xnoxan hour earlier as well would be better00:12
boredandbloggingyeah, think its tough for people in Europe to make it00:12
DPicemmajane: today, or for future meetings?00:12
DPicokay i'll make it an hour earlier00:12
emmajane7PM is good for me because it gives me time to get to the gym afterwards :)00:12
xnoxCool =D00:12
emmajaneand the reminder was great00:12
DPicand is it okay with everyone that i've made meeting monthly now instead of every two weeks?00:12
emmajaneEST/DST thing did screw me up. I nver think about the difference.00:12
xnoxDPic: 1 a month is plenty? Isn't it?00:13
boredandbloggingshould we have meetings before hardy?00:13
DPici think so00:13
DPichmm maybe a special meeting two weeks from now just because of the Hardy release?00:14
emmajaneworks for me00:15
DPicalright then00:15
DPicnow, first thing on the agenda is to talk about fliers00:15
DPicwe have a few here https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MarketingTeam/Materials00:15
DPicbut i would definitely like to see more. any ideas on who else we can contact?00:16
boredandbloggingmost of the people who used to do that stuff arent' that active in -marketing anymore00:17
DPici sent an email to the loco-contacts list which included a link to that page and we got one person to add their work00:18
DPicwould it be worth contacting the artwork team?00:18
boredandbloggingdon't see the old DIY page on the Materials page00:18
xnoxI will try to come with something. Although I'm not great artist =D00:19
boredandbloggingno wait00:19
boredandbloggingits there00:19
DPicthe materials page has all of the work from the DIY page i think00:19
xnoxno it doesn't https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DIYMarketing?highlight=%28DIY%2900:19
DPiccould someone contact the artwork ream?00:19
DPicxnox: alright i'll work on copying stuff over00:20
xnoxI'll contact artwork team :P00:21
DPicxnox: thanks00:21
DPicis there anything else we should do as far as fliers go?00:22
xnox2 weeks before hardy send links to all Loco teams to remind them there is something to use =D00:23
DPicyeah, i'll be reminded to do that at our next meeting00:23
boredandbloggingi gotta head out, will read the backlog later00:23
DPicokay thanks for coming00:23
* xnox still here though00:24
DPici got an email from someone asking if there were any big events planned for the hardy release00:24
DPici told them that i didn't know but i'd ask here if there were and if not, who to contact about making arrangements00:24
* xnox is in UK and it seems dead00:25
L1peDPic: well there are parties everywhere00:25
DPicyes, but i'm pretty sure he meant like a BIG event00:26
* johnc4510 sorry late00:26
* xnox most of the LUG's anyway around where I live are dead00:26
DPicjohnc4510: no problem. did you read up on what you missed?00:27
xnoxI've heard of BIG events in China =D00:27
johnc4510doing that now00:27
xnoxbut I'm never gonna get there =(00:27
DPicjohnc4510: okay cool, if you have anything to add, please do00:27
DPicxnox: well, are there any people who would be able to set up such an event?00:27
xnoxnot really00:28
DPicalright i'll let him know00:28
DPicmy reply is already like a month late :/00:28
L1peI think that 50 parties arround the world is a BIG event...00:29
DPicL1pe: yeah but he's looking for one big event00:29
johnc4510DPic: we should get the link to the teams as soon as possible for the flyer, so they can start printing and handing them out00:29
DPicjohnc4510: the fliers that exist now talk about hardy as if it's already been released00:30
DPici don't think we'll have any to talk about it's upcoming release in time although that would have been nice00:30
DPicnext thing on the agenda is ubuntu demos. I added this a few weeks ago and thinking about it now it doesn't seem like the best idea but my thinking was to just try to get more people to SEE ubuntu but having demos on the streets. It might be better to ask teams to request having a demo at a computer show or something (not sure how they would pull that off). something similar is mentioned under friendly contact here https://wiki.ubuntu.com/GainIndus00:32
xnoxhttps://wiki.ubuntu.com/GainIndustrySupport ?00:33
DPici fail to understand your question00:33
xnoxPage does not exists00:33
xnoxthe one you send00:34
DPicokay it works for me but here's the quote, "Everyone should be able to get in touch with companies and just say what you want. For example, you could go to a computer retail store and ask them about supporting Ubuntu, then show off your own computer running it. They'll like the spinning cube :)"00:34
johnc4510works for me00:34
xnoxDPic: sounds great unless they will think it's hidden camera show ;)00:35
DPicwell how could we get LoCo teams to do this?00:36
DPicmaybe add it to this page, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HitTheStreets ?00:36
xnoxI think we should do a hidden camera show and put it on youtube00:37
xnoxwith something like that00:37
DPicxnox: that's actually a great idea00:37
xnoxa) loco's will see it00:37
xnoxb) people will see00:37
xnoxc) employees will see it as well00:37
DPicc) the internets will see it!00:37
xnoxDPic: internerds =D00:38
DPicwe would be able to catch a lot of people's reactions on camera00:38
DPicit could make for a good promotional video00:39
DPicwhich Ubuntu and free software in general needs more of00:39
xnoxI personally like the firefoxflicks.com idea00:39
xnoxit's simple yet attractive00:40
L1peI don't think that's a good idea...00:40
DPicL1pe: why not?00:40
L1pewell, maybe only in the "first world". because in many many countries people walking in the streents doesn't even have computers...00:41
xnoxGood point00:41
DPicL1pe: well with that we'd be targeting the "first world" but i think it's a good idea for that00:41
L1peand in my opinion you just can't make somebody in the street to change there OSes00:42
DPicthat is true but i think some promotional videos could help a lot if they served to educate consumers00:42
xnox"Regular mum stripping DRM while cooking breakfast?" =D from ubuntuforums i think00:43
DPiclast on the agenda is team jobs00:44
xnox"Ubuntu - Linux for human beings; Unable your Medibuntu repository =D"00:44
L1pemaybe some crazzy promotional videos, (I really like that kind of marketing)00:44
DPicwhat kind of "crazzy" do you mean?00:44
xnoxWalk into dell store and boot all computer00:45
xnoxs into ubuntu live cd00:45
xnoxcatch on camera reaction of people =D00:45
xnoxOh dell stores are shut down aren't they00:45
DPicyeah, but it'd be hard to pull off00:45
L1pelike 100 loco members runing in the streets of dubai with live cds :)00:46
DPicrolling on laughing floor?00:46
* xnox I knew I never knew chatspeak00:47
xnoxit's RLOF isn't it?00:47
xnoxbut yeah close enough =D00:48
* xnox is Russian00:48
DPicxnox: it's ROFL --> rolling on the floor laughing :)00:48
xnoxahhh that's the one00:48
DPichaha anyways, team jobs. is anyone here interested in being the meeting manager? if not i'll email the list about it00:49
DPicgoing once00:49
DPicgoing twice00:50
xnoxclose but no cigar00:50
L1pewhats the job spec?00:50
DPictake meetimg minutes, contact the fridge to let them know about upcoming meetings, update the claendar and wiki (for meetings)00:51
L1peI can do that if you want00:52
DPicit's not a lot of work, it's just a little but you have to do at regular intarvals00:52
DPicL1pe, that would be great00:52
DPiccan i talk to you after the meeting about what to do?00:52
DPicare there any other jobs that this team needs?00:54
DPici think a person or two to act as a team contact would be good00:54
DPicso people can contact them instead of the list for certain things00:54
DPicalright, well is there anything to add before we finish?00:56
* xnox "Hakuna Matata"00:57
DPicalright, i guess that's it00:58
DPicMeeting adjourned.00:58
xnoxsee ya00:58
L1penot the most popular meeting ever :)00:58
=== ubotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 26 Mar 19:00 UTC: Xubuntu | 26 Mar 21:00 UTC: Server Team | 28 Mar 04:00 UTC: MOTU | 02 Apr 21:00 UTC: Server Team | 09 Apr 21:00 UTC: Server Team | 16 Apr 21:00 UTC: Server Team
pleaseandthankyocan i install ubuntu edubun xunbu kubuntu at the same time?05:05
pleaseandthankyook installed xubuntu and and goubuntu  on top of edubuntu where are they now? and how do i load them?05:59
evandgood evening calc06:39
ogra_cmpcevening ? tsk...06:39
ogra_cmpc.oO(mummble,mumble ....middleofthenigth.... mumble)06:40
nixternal01:40 Chicago Standard Time :)06:40
evandmumble mumble almost 3am mumble :)06:40
ogra_cmpc7:40 CEST06:40
evandnot sure which I'd dislike more06:41
ogra_cmpcihad3amones ... and i use to go to bed around 4am anyway ... so that was perfect06:41
ogra_cmpcspacebar morning-weakness06:42
calcits only 1:42am here06:42
calcits still early ;-)06:42
nixternalor late06:42
* calc is glad his mother in law watches his son on meeting nights06:42
* nixternal is glad his mother-in-law is no where near him on any night06:43
calche seems to think 6:30am is a good time to wake up06:43
calcso 3am-6:30am would really suck for sleep06:43
calcbtw the OOo graph is finally pretty :)06:44
calconly 10 new bugs06:44
bryyceheya guys06:46
calcArneGoetje: thanks for the bug testing :)06:47
* asac waves06:47
asacsince when does the meeting start at 0630 UTC?06:47
james_wmorning all06:48
* ogra_cmpc waves06:48
calcasac: oh i thought it ended at 0700 UTC ;-)06:49
asacogra_cmpc: you already yawmed ... no need to wave ;)06:49
ogra_cmpc... andtriestogetridofthe sesame seedunder thespacebargrrr06:49
ogra_cmpcah, better06:49
asacwhat are you doing ogra_cmpc ;) ... hopefully you are at least properly dressed :)06:50
ogra_cmpcnot at that time of day, no ... but i wont go into details :)06:51
nixternalthank goodness :p06:53
bryyceasac, did you get many agenda items for the meeting?  I suppose there are plenty of milestone bugs we can talk about.06:53
asacbryyce: no additions, no.06:54
ArneGoetjecalc: welcome. took me a few seconds. :)06:55
calcArneGoetje: i'll have to get you to show me how to do that kind of thing on my laptop at UDS, thanks for taking care of it for me though :)06:56
ArneGoetjecalc: sure. no problem.06:56
asacany trick to get a hardy blocker list from launchpad _with_ the assignee in the list?06:57
bryycenot afaik06:57
asaci remeber that we had such lists in the past ... but i cant get it by just using advanced search06:57
bryycegetting high/crit milestones are pretty easy - http://tinyurl.com/2vtt6u06:57
slangasekasac: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+milestone/ubuntu-8.0406:58
asacslangasek: thanks06:58
slangasektrade-off is that you can't hide the fix-released bugs :)06:58
asacslangasek: how comes that that list is about 208 bugs, while the hardy tagged list is just 138?06:58
asaci see06:59
bryyceI've been browsing through the high priority milestones, and noted a few that looked relevant to us...  http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/61106/06:59
asacthe network-manager issues should to be fixed on a branch. if anyone still experiences issues connecting with NM, please talk to me07:00
asacok ... maybe start?07:00
asacslangasek: for beta wrap-up: are there are any _new_ issues that came up after beta?07:01
slangasekoh, sure, there were the regressions that people uploaded to the archive the day after the beta freeze ended :)07:01
slangasekif people don't know what I'm talking about - hal/network-manager started giving problems with wireless, and language packs started having errors with overlapping files, and then Germany went on a four-day weekend ;)07:03
calcslangasek: i thought that was all of europe07:03
ogra_cmpccalc, not all of us07:03
TheMusocalc: Australia also.07:04
ogra_cmpcbut most07:04
bryycesure made for a quiet couple of days for us in usa ;-)07:04
asaci worked the whole weekend :) ... though on security backports07:04
slangasekso thankfully, I think everyone's out of four-day weekends between now and release, so I'm optimistic that we won't have any repeats of /that/...07:04
* ogra_cmpc hacked on classmate the whole time07:04
TheMuso,e actually got away from the computer.07:04
* TheMuso actually got away from the computer.07:04
calcyummy bug 159893 sounds like it would fix my biggest gripe with compiz and its targeted for hardy07:04
ubotuLaunchpad bug 159893 in compiz "Windows only snap to outside edges" [Wishlist,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/15989307:04
bryyceTheMuso: heresy!07:04
slangasekas for problems with the beta itself, things look pretty good.  Still waiting for Xubuntu to give me the thumbs-up for a set of alternate CDs to release as a beta for them, but otherwise we're on the final stretch to release now07:05
bryyceso it looks like we have until April 10th, Final Freeze, and then RC on the 17th and final release a week after that on the 24th.07:07
* ArneGoetje still needs to check some scim and fonts issues... :(07:08
slangasekplease use this time wisely to work on those milestoned bugs - if anyone's worried about running out, let me know, and if anyone's worried that they have too many assigned, let me know that too07:08
bryyceArneGoetje, do you want to give a status on that?07:08
dokoabout bug #174002, you probably can avoid the reboot question if using noifiers to ask for a reboot of the system, but at least for server, the update notifiers are not installed by default07:08
ubotuLaunchpad bug 174002 in glibc "asks termnal question on dapper->hardy upgrade" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/17400207:08
calchmm final freeze is the day after i fly off to prague07:08
slangasekyou're going to prague a month early?07:09
dokocalc: so it's one day earlier for you =)07:09
calcslangasek: yea GoOOCon07:09
calcdoko: yea07:09
calcslangasek: doko as well but on friday (i think)07:09
ogra_cmpcdoko, show a debconf note if there is no DISPLAY set07:09
ArneGoetjebryyce: I don't have an overview right now, as those bugs seem to be individual problems, some of them on KDE... so I would need to replicate them first07:09
ogra_cmpcor just echo to the console07:10
slangasekcalc: ohwell, that gives you extra padding so that OOo can be uploaded /and built/ before the freeze then :-)07:10
dokoogra_cmpc: it is shown now, but only for the case when debconf is installed07:10
calcslangasek: heh yea07:10
ogra_cmpcdoko, if [ -z "$DISPLAY" ];then echo "please reboot" fi07:10
dokocalc: I'd like to to an OOo -l10n language export test for -4. Could you make a preliminary -4 build available somewhere?07:11
calcdoko: ok, just the same as -3 but with some language stuff done differently?07:12
calcdoko: i am uploading 2.4.0-1ubuntu1 later this week07:12
calcdoko: probably tomorrow or so, whenever the official announcement goes out07:12
dokocalc: fine, just tell me where I can grab it before your upload07:13
calcdoko: ok, do you need just the orig/diff/dsc or the debs as well?07:13
bryyceslangasek: are there particular bugs you've noticed as important, that aren't getting sufficient attention or progress on them so far?07:14
dokocalc: source only07:15
calcdoko: ok07:15
asacok, i think i assigned all unassigned ffox and network manager blocker bugs now.07:15
asac(to me)07:15
slangasekbryyce: I haven't noticed that yet, no; with less than a week since beta and Easter weekend intervening, there's insufficient data yet,  but I'll certainly be tagging people if I think it's necessary07:16
bryyceslangasek: ok well always good news that the sky is not falling ;-)07:16
asacyes. i wondered why i haven't received the expected bug flood yet, but maybe its really because of easter07:16
slangasek<cough> it's because no one could connect to the Internet to send their bugs :-)07:17
james_wslangasek: you can poke me about odds and ends as I don't have an area of my own yet.07:17
ogra_cmpci would expect more testers because of that, not less07:17
* bryyce snorts07:17
asacslangasek: hehe :)07:17
asacyeah. thats another point07:17
slangasekjames_w: sounds great, thanks :)07:17
bryyceyes, I've been noticing mutterings about wireless issues in some xorg bug reports lately.07:17
bryyce"Can you ssh in and attach gdb to Xorg to see why it's crashed?"  "Nope, wireless is broke."  ;-)07:18
slangasekfwiw, we *should* have those wireless regressions sorted in the archive now07:18
ogra_cmpcasac, btw, heise held back the beta announcement until yesterday (to put it in the news aside with the fedora one)07:19
slangasekit took a little longer than it ought to have, mainly because there were two overlapping regressions in two different packages07:19
bryyceexcellent, yeah sounds like the issues are already past07:19
ArneGoetjealso for IPW2200?07:19
asacogra_cmpc: which ubuntu beta?07:19
slangasekbut I expect we'll still have to handhold a few users through getting their wireless back up, for a few more days07:19
asacArneGoetje: ipw2200 hidden ssid is fixed on my branch ... otherwise it should work07:19
asacArneGoetje: testing appreciated07:20
ArneGoetjeasac: will do tonight07:20
bryycefor Xorg, things seem to be pretty stable - the usual level of issues.  Mostly we're catching secondary and tertiary side effects from various fixes that went in around beta07:21
bryyceI learned today that the compiz folks have blacklisted all ATI laptops, which is disappointing, but looks like it was the right call.  A lot of users are going to complain about it though.07:22
asacanyone can confirm that dpkg-buildpackage -S -si is broken (it always includes the orig.tar.gz in changes for me)07:23
asacwell dpkg-genchanges that is07:23
asac(i had to create the changes in a gutsy chroot for the firefox security update)07:24
TheMusoasac: I never use -si, I just use dpkg-buildpackage -S and no orig is included.07:24
asacit still includes the orig for me07:25
asac$ dpkg-genchanges -S -si07:25
asacdpkg-genchanges: including full source code in upload07:25
asacsame without -si07:25
asacwhats going on :(07:25
slangasekwhat's your version number?07:25
dokoasac: did you want to look at the Blackdown java1.4 packages, or can we remove them from the distro now?07:25
slangasek(does that mean the meeting's over, if we're talking about dpkg-genchanges commandline options?)07:26
asacin the past it just auto did that for -107:26
asac(like in debian)07:26
asacslangasek: well ... not sure. if its broken its certainly a blocker ;)07:26
slangasekmaybe the heuristic has been changed to <= -107:26
asacslangasek: anyway ... it should honour the -si07:26
slangasekwell, yes :)07:27
asacshould happen for all -0ubuntuX things if its really <= -1 now07:27
asacill test and file a bug. anything else?07:29
slangasekasac: is ubufox getting up to the top of your list yet?  It would be nice to have confirmation that java now works by default for 64-bit users07:30
asacslangasek: yes. I will push it so it gets done by end of this week for sure.07:30
dokoit should work for everything but LiveConnect07:30
asacbut the comments in bug looked good (except the wizard)07:30
slangasekdoko: "by default" -> ubufox still doesn't know to install icedtea-gcjwebplugin07:31
asacwhy is that a problem?07:31
asacis there no transitional package?07:31
slangasekso we don't really get full user testing right now :)07:31
slangasekasac: there is not, no07:31
asacwhy not? (sorry if i miss the obvious)07:32
slangasekasac: if there were a transitional package, users would get two options in the plugin list where they should get one...?07:32
asacthey will only get the package that had the Npp- headers in their control when ubufox database was updated the last time07:32
dokowell, I can build an empty package from the icedtea-gcjwebplugin source07:32
asacso for now it would work07:32
asacand once i run the datbase batch it would automatically suggest -gcjwebplugin07:32
asacinstead of the old one07:33
asac(given that the Npp- headers are dropped from the transitional package control)07:33
slangasekdoko: an easy push through NEW from my POV if you want to do that07:33
asacdoko: empty? without transition?07:33
slangasekempty -> dummy -> transition07:33
asacdoko: please do that. i think users that installed the icedtea plugin want to be auto upgraded anyway07:34
dokook, will do07:34
slangasekdoko: have you gotten an answer to your inittab question yet?07:34
dokoslangasek: no, and not that high priority. I'll have to look later07:35
slangasekI'm interested in knowing the answer, since I can't figure it out myself, guess it needs picking Scott's brain07:35
ogra_cmpcfedora will surely soon have a fix now that they switched to upstart :P07:37
asacok, i guess meeting is over ;)07:38
slangasekok, thanks all :)07:38
* asac goes back to work07:39
TheMusothanks all07:39
TheMusominutes will be out tomorrow my time.07:39
james_wthanks all07:41
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stgraberok, so we have RichEd and ogra_cmpcng :) anyone else ?12:16
ogra_cmpcngunlikely :)12:16
ogra_cmpcnghighvoltage, ?12:16
ogra_cmpcngjuliux, ?12:16
ogra_cmpcnganyone ?12:16
RichEdi've got a packed day with bad internet12:16
RichEdi'll lurk and respond if pinged by name12:16
ogra_cmpcngi'm fiddling with the next gen classmate atm12:16
juliuxogra_cmpc, i am half here12:16
* juliux is fighting with a lotus notes and domino server12:17
ogra_cmpcngand i dont have anything to report ... four days of easter and all remaining workdays went into classmate12:17
ogra_cmpcngbeta was good though12:17
ogra_cmpcngthere were three slightly critical bugs discovered in beta, one is moodle (not fixed yet), one in ltsp (amd64 dhcpd.conf handling (there is a fix on teh bug)) and italc not being installable in a netinstall (fixed by stephane, sorry for not having it uploaded yet)12:19
ogra_cmpcngbeyond that we have two categories in g-a-i that i have to remove since they are empty12:20
ogra_cmpcngand there is one upstream ldm security bug that needs fixing12:20
ogra_cmpcngthats about it from my side12:21
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ogra_cmpcngany questions anyone ?12:21
stgrabersounds good and not too hard to fix for RC12:22
ogra_cmpcngoh, i forgot, laser has uploaded a new and fixed squeak12:22
ogra_cmpcngand apparently he builds the squeak vm for all arches so you can have it on ppc and amd64 as well12:22
ogra_cmpcngi will have to test how good it behaves on the classmate, since i suspect it will be used a lot12:23
stgraberhow better is the new classmate ? do you have L2 cache on this one ? :)12:23
ogra_cmpcngits a typical OLPC app so i assume kids will want it on the classmate12:23
ogra_cmpcngand the device i have here is a total fake :)12:23
stgraberbut real HDD right ?12:23
stgraberok :)12:24
ogra_cmpcng512M and 30G HDD12:24
ogra_cmpcngboth wont be the default afaik12:24
ogra_cmpcngbut that might still change depending on prices ... the device i have here isnt supposed to come out before Q3 or so12:24
ogra_cmpcngit has a 9" screen and a right shift key though :)12:25
ogra_cmpcngand a neat case that looks a bit more modern12:25
stgraberoh, so you'll be making less typing mistake now :)12:25
ogra_cmpcngnot really, the keys are different i have to get used to it12:26
stgraberhave you had a chance to run italc on one of the "old" classmates, I'd be interested by memory usage on those12:26
ogra_cmpcngit should be by default in the latest images ... i didnt do a fresh install yet on an old one12:26
ogra_cmpcngat least its supposed to be in the default install12:27
ogra_cmpcngits not here on the ng classmate12:27
stgraberit seems to eat 14MB on my lappy (64bit) but I have a real highres screen (1680x1050) so might be a lot less on the cmpc12:28
ogra_cmpcng14M is a lot12:28
ogra_cmpcngat least for a classmate12:29
stgraberyes, but that's on 64bit with 1680x1050, I'd expect x11vnc to eat a lot less on a 32bit 800x480 screen12:29
ogra_cmpcngis it x11vnc ? i thought it uses its own code12:29
stgraberit's its own code but the VNC part is 90% based on x11vnc12:29
ogra_cmpcngso just stolen from there12:30
stgraberit forks into 2 process one doing the iTalc actions (locking screen, allowing demo mode, ...) and the other running x11vnc12:31
ogra_cmpcngit eats 6.88M reserved ram here12:32
ogra_cmpcngnot to bad12:32
stgraberok, so seems to be directly related to the screen resolution12:32
ogra_cmpcng(running idle)12:32
ogra_cmpcngok ... so wrt meeting i'm done so far ... RichEd, anything to add ? management/community ?12:33
stgraberbtw, I'll soon have the avahi scripts ready to replace ica-launcher and italc-launcher. I don't think we'll be able to incldue those in the package for Hardy12:33
stgraberso where is the best place to upload them ?12:33
ogra_cmpcngyeah, sadly12:33
ogra_cmpcngPPA ?12:33
ogra_cmpcngso hardy users can pull them inofficially12:34
RichEdogra_cmpc: not from my side today12:34
stgraberI'm not sure generating an entire new package is necessary as it's just the two launcher scripts that need to be replaced12:34
RichEdthanks for managing the mini-meeting12:34
ogra_cmpcnghaving fun with the new keyboard :)12:34
ogra_cmpcngRichEd, btw, suspend/hibernate works on the next gen ... i have one issue with the backlight being off on resume but thats fixable (and works if you hit the brightness key once)12:36
stgraberhmm, now that I'm having a look at it, my new scripts will required avahi-tools and probably python-avahi so uploading a package to the PPA makes sense so I can easily add the new depends12:36
RichEdwhat's better about the keyboard ?12:36
ogra_cmpcngright shift key12:37
stgraberthe other way would have been a wiki page with the two scripts attached12:37
ogra_cmpcngsmaller higher keys12:37
RichEdand can you send a mini status email to me about any issues we need to urgently fix (for the IDF launch)12:37
ogra_cmpcngso the center point of the keys is further apart12:37
RichEdis that better for bigger fingers ?12:38
* RichEd also missed the right shift12:38
RichEdannoying at times12:38
ogra_cmpcngRichEd, its all fixed, i uploaded the fixed package for the installer this morning, it just takes its hours to get into the archive before i can go on12:38
RichEdso i can tell mr k that we can satisfy them12:38
ogra_cmpcngi saw some video lockups though12:38
ogra_cmpcngnot sure what that is yet, but its nothing that happens constantly and we can blame the unreleased status of the image for now12:39
RichEdokay ... not critical though for now ... it is prerelease12:39
ogra_cmpcngin any case its installable with my next image build12:39
RichEdtell them to file a bug report if and when it happens12:39
ogra_cmpcngand the webcam works fine :)12:39
RichEdgreat ... they can chat to you live while you work ;)12:40
ogra_cmpcngwell, i know when it happens .... i just dont know why yet and why it isnt realiably reproducable12:40
ogra_cmpcngRichEd, the ekiga videophone works out oif the box :)12:41
* highvoltage is here12:46
highvoltagesorry, was in shower, somehow thought there was a late meeting12:46
highvoltageogra_cmpcng: how is NG?12:46
highvoltageogra_cmpcng: can you take a pic of the new clasmate dummy you have?12:47
ogra_cmpcngnot sure i'm allowed to12:47
ogra_cmpcngits not public yet12:47
highvoltageah ok.12:48
ogra_cmpcngoh, i missed to finish the meeting ...12:48
highvoltagenice that it has lots of RAM at least. is the 30GB hard disk also flash? or magnetic platters?12:48
ogra_cmpcnghighvoltage, thats a real HD and it wont have the amount of ram in the released variant by default i think12:49
ogra_cmpcngneed to close the meeting and do more tests12:49
ogra_cmpcnggoing once12:49
ogra_cmpcngtwice ...12:49
ogra_cmpcngadjourned ... thanks everyone12:49
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ubotuSchedule for Europe/London: 26 Mar 19:00: Xubuntu | 26 Mar 21:00: Server Team | 28 Mar 04:00: MOTU | 02 Apr 22:00: Server Team | 09 Apr 22:00: Server Team | 16 Apr 22:00: Server Team13:17
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* pedro_ waves15:59
ogasawarahi all15:59
pedro_hello ogasawara15:59
pedro_hey Iulian15:59
henohey all!16:00
* Iulian waves16:00
* stgraber waves16:00
stgrabernand: ping16:00
pedro_hi heno16:00
MootBotMeeting started at 17:02. The chair is heno.16:02
MootBotCommands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]16:02
henoagenda: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/Meetings16:02
henosorry for the late announcement!16:02
pedro_i'm loving the meeting schedule posted at the wiki page16:02
pedro_thanks for it ;-)16:02
henoyeah, I thought that might be useful :)16:03
heno(for when I make agendas very late ;-D )16:03
IulianActually it is ;)16:03
heno[TOPIC] QA-Website frontpage (nand and stgraber)16:04
MootBotNew Topic:  QA-Website frontpage (nand and stgraber)16:04
* heno still needs to reply to some of nand's emails about brainstorm16:04
stgraberthat's something we have been discussing a bit with nand, qa.ubuntu.com looks really empty and useless as it's now and we thought we would really need to improve it16:05
henonand: I've not forgotten, it's just queed up ...16:05
nandheno: I guessed so16:05
stgraberso first thing, as this page will be linked from the QA bar you have at the top of all our websites, we'll need a name for it16:05
stgraberthis page will act as a summary of all the other QA related websites (ISO tracker, Brainstorm, QA Blog, links to Hug days, ...)16:06
heno'Home' ?16:06
henodoes drupal have a blog plugin, btw?16:06
stgraberthe problem I see with 'Home' is that people will expect to be brought back to the main page of the website they currently are on16:06
stgraberheno: yes, we are testing it on http://qablog.stgraber.org16:07
henoooo, pretty16:07
nandIdeally there should be some feedback on Ubuntu dev on this blog16:07
liwoops, I forgot to /join the right channel16:07
henonand: agreed16:08
nandto give some update to a good portion of users whose only portal to Ubuntu is brainstorm16:08
heno'QA Home'?16:08
liw(if someone wants to paste me the backlog for this meeting, I'd be happy to catch up)16:08
stgraberliw: http://paste.stgraber.org/198916:08
pedro_I've already flood him by privmsg hehe16:09
stgraber'QA Home' sounds better16:09
liwI have three copies of the backlog now, thanks everyone16:09
stgraberany other idea ?16:10
henowe should also consider setting up reports.qa.u.c or similar for bug lists, weather report, etc16:10
stgraberheno: that's my idea with qa.ubuntu.com16:10
stgraberlet me copy/paste the planned content16:10
stgraber - Summary tab (developer weather report, news from the blog, top-10 from Brainstorm, links to different tracker (iso, mozilla, ...))16:10
stgraber - Testing tracker tab (status for ongoing testing, summary of user's subscriptions)16:10
stgraber - Brainstorm tab (user's favourite ideas, top-10 most recent ideas, top-10 from frontpage)16:10
stgraber - Resource tab (links to Wiki, LP, Hug days, Ubuntuwire, ...)16:10
henoogasawara: could the weather report live on reports.qa.u.c/releasestatus ? or so16:10
ogasawaraheno: I believe so - I actually have it at http://people.ubuntu.com/~ogasawara/weatherreport.html currently16:11
stgraberthe default tab being the Summary which would have some kind of block base UI showing content from the various QA resources16:11
henoogasawara: yeah, thanks for getting that back up!16:11
stgraberany other idea of what we should show on qa.ubuntu.com ?16:13
nandIdeally too, it should be noob-proof16:13
davmor2nand: :)16:13
nandmeaning, a new user could actually learn things here about the processes16:14
nandand how to get involed16:14
nandI see that page as a portal for noob to enter and discover Ubuntu dev16:14
stgraberwe don't want our users to be sent to the ISO Tracker with no idea of what it's and how to use it, so we should disply the appropriate wiki link in the various tabs16:14
henosort of a 'How can you help? layout16:15
davmor2pictures pictures everywhere.  It's easier to understand something when you can see it.16:15
nanddavmor2: exactly16:15
nandYou all remember I guess when you started contributing: The hardest part is to actually start16:15
henoleast complex at the top: filing bugs, running unstable milestones, triage, structured testing16:16
henogetting increasing complicated16:16
nandAnd it would be good to take this opportunity (high popularity of brainstorm) to recruit new contributors!16:16
davmor2Wiki updates will be on going adding images where appropriate and hopefully simplifying where possible it's all in hand honest16:16
nandboss around :)16:16
henoshall we just do some layour mock-ups on a wiki page?16:17
stgrabergood idea16:17
stgraberwould be great to have different views of how this website will look like so we can discuss it a bit more at Prague16:18
davmor2heno: yes it'll be best then vote on it next meeting16:18
stgraber(assuming you guys will be at FOSSCamp)16:18
henohttps://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/MainSiteHomePageScratch say16:18
davmor2stgraber: :(16:18
* heno will be there16:19
* nand too16:19
davmor2heno: page sounds good :)16:20
henosounds like a plan16:20
heno[TOPIC] RC and final testing preparations16:20
MootBotNew Topic:  RC and final testing preparations16:20
henoour team efforts on final release testing could do with some more structure16:21
heno-- an action item for me basically16:21
henoSeveral people have already stepped up to take ownership of various parts of it16:22
henodavmor2: will be responsible for Windows-based testing16:22
henoliw will run a series of upgrade tests and netboot16:23
henopedro_ will keep https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/ISO/FixValidation updated and track that16:24
henoI may still ping other team members and ask for help on bits of this16:25
stgraberI'll do LTSP and some other weird Alternate testing (manual + double encrypted LVM that sort of things)16:25
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* dtrask-away is back.16:25
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henoI should write an overview of who'se doing what16:25
henostgraber: excellent, thanks16:25
davmor2I'll move on to *buntu's once I get the windows stuff out the road.16:25
ogasawaraheno: that would be good.  then we can sign up for responsibilities that aren't yet assigned16:26
stgraberheno: hmm, we should have that overview with user's subscription if they update them accordingly16:26
davmor2heno: with the RC are we going for full coverage at least once?16:26
henoogasawara: I'll ask for some of your tracking page expertise as well :)16:26
henodavmor2: ideally more than single coverage16:27
henostgraber: I mean a bit more general tasks16:27
davmor2I did say at least once :)16:28
henothinks like keeping track of the fix verification isn't a test case16:28
davmor2stgraber: I updated mine as much as possible16:28
stgraberheno: right16:28
henodavmor2: indeed, you're right -- more than one tester and likely more than one iteration too16:29
henoI've been wondering if we should remove the updates cases from the tracker16:29
davmor2heno: what would also be useful would be a way to identify the least tested product so when general jobs are done the least tested can be nailed16:30
henothey way liw and mvo tests updates doesn't really fit with that16:30
henoalso, davmor2 had requested feedback on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/Backing_Up16:31
liwI like the approach of having a list of tasks to be performed and being to click "pass" or "fail" for each16:31
liweven for upgrade testing16:31
henoref http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker/build/upgrade/all16:31
henoliw does that fit the tests you plan to do?16:32
henoor should the cases be adjusted?16:32
stgraberI'm not sure if that was mvo or something else but someone asked for "Upgrade (cd-rom)" to be added to the Upgrade testcases16:32
stgraberso we'll have : Upgrade (internet) and Upgrade (cd-rom) instead of a single Upgrade testcase16:32
henoyep and we need Dapper->Hardy cases too16:32
liwheno, I think it's fine, at least currently; I assume that if I come up with improvements, they'll be easy to do16:33
heno(ok, so forget my first suggestion; let's look at ways of modifying the cases)16:33
stgraberso we currently have upgrade for : edubuntu, kubuntu, ubuntu, ubuntu server and xubuntu16:34
stgraberany other to add ?16:34
henoliw: there are no dapper upgrade tests listed for example16:34
henodo we still want Edubuntu as a separate case?16:34
liwheno, yeah, that's true; I'll make a list of all the scenarios I want to test, and make checklists for how to test each one16:34
henoliw: thanks16:35
stgraberheno: it's : current edubuntu -> ubuntu edu add-on16:35
stgraberheno: so we'll drop edubuntu with Intrepid16:35
liwheno, and offer them up for discussion on #ubuntu-testing (putting/keeping them on the wiki, obviously)16:35
henook, cool16:35
henoFYI: liw is setting up some massively package-overloaded install images to run upgrade from16:36
henoso it's more than just install+upgrade16:36
henomost packages and flavours are covered in a single upgrade test really16:37
stgrabermy initial plan was to update the testcases for RC tonight as I'll be away next week. With the problems I had with my Dapper VM I'll likely do the sync only tomorrow evening16:38
stgraberso please tell me what you want changed by then16:38
liwstgraber, ack16:38
henostgraber: great, thanks. We'll do that16:38
davmor2I'll probably poach the screenshots from here http://www.partimage.org/Screenshots rather than create new ones for the backup page16:39
henoso I'll take the action of setting up an overview page, and we'll take it from there16:39
heno[TOPIC] Beta bugs impact16:40
MootBotNew Topic:  Beta bugs impact16:40
henoI just wanted to hear what the impact of the release has been. Doesn't look too bad AFAICS16:40
henopedro_, ogasawara?16:40
pedro_yep it's looking good on the desktop side16:40
pedro_we indeed have more bugs which is good16:41
ogasawarasame here, haven't noticed anything major16:41
pedro_but there's nothing we don't know already and the other ones are low impact (features, etc)16:41
henopedro_: :)16:41
davmor2goodo :)16:41
pedro_so yeah everything looking pretty good16:41
henoand as usual, we had a bug day yesterday, and will have one tomorrow!16:42
henoany other items?16:42
pedro_yes sr! based on GDM and GNOME Screensaver so be there ;-)16:42
pedro_not from me16:43
henoand KDM as well I guess16:43
MootBotMeeting finished at 17:44.16:43
henoshort and sweet. thanks all!16:44
Iulianheno: Nop, it's Konqueror IIRC16:46
IulianOh yes, see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuBugDay/20080327/KDE16:46
henoIulian: ok, thanks16:47
pedro_ah yes it's konqueror, yuriy told me they don't have enough bugs on KDM so he was looking for another package that might help the hardy release16:48
pedro_time to have something for eat, see you in a while16:52
zoredachewhat are the 4 truths that come before 'ask the simple questions first'?16:55
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Bobi\msg NickServ Bobi17:30
emgent@schedule rome17:38
ubotuSchedule for Europe/Rome: 26 Mar 20:00: Xubuntu | 26 Mar 22:00: Server Team | 28 Mar 05:00: MOTU | 02 Apr 23:00: Server Team | 09 Apr 23:00: Server Team | 16 Apr 23:00: Server Team17:38
Bobi@schedule vienna17:40
ubotuSchedule for Europe/Vienna: 26 Mar 20:00: Xubuntu | 26 Mar 22:00: Server Team | 28 Mar 05:00: MOTU | 02 Apr 23:00: Server Team | 09 Apr 23:00: Server Team | 16 Apr 23:00: Server Team17:40
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Odd-rationalexubuntu meeting is coming up in about a half hour?18:27
ubotuSchedule for Etc/UTC: 26 Mar 19:00: Xubuntu | 26 Mar 21:00: Server Team | 28 Mar 04:00: MOTU | 02 Apr 21:00: Server Team | 09 Apr 21:00: Server Team | 16 Apr 21:00: Server Team18:27
zoredacheOdd-rationale: accourding to the schedule.18:28
Odd-rationaleOK. Just making sure. Thanks!18:28
=== ubotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 26 Mar 19:00 UTC: Xubuntu | 26 Mar 19:00 UTC: Ubuntu Security Team | 26 Mar 21:00 UTC: Server Team | 28 Mar 04:00 UTC: MOTU | 02 Apr 21:00 UTC: Server Team | 09 Apr 21:00 UTC: Server Team
=== ubotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Xubuntu Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 26 Mar 19:00 UTC: Ubuntu Security Team | 26 Mar 21:00 UTC: Server Team | 28 Mar 04:00 UTC: MOTU | 02 Apr 21:00 UTC: Server Team | 09 Apr 21:00 UTC: Server Team
keescooker? xubuntu meeting vanished?18:50
Riddell"Current meeting: Xubuntu"18:52
* keescook will learn to read some day.18:52
meborcin calendar, there is xubuntu and ubuntu securiti (or smth) both starting at 19:0018:52
meborcso which is starting now?18:53
keescookubuntu security team meeting will be in #ubuntu-hardened.  xubuntu was here first.  :)18:53
meborcnice ;)18:53
cody-somervilleThanks :)18:53
cody-somervilleHeya jm1 :)18:57
keescook(ubuntu security team meeting: please join #ubuntu-hardened -- we've had a room conflict)18:57
cody-somervilleHeya jgamio, vinze, TheSheep, etc. etc. :)18:57
vinzeHey cody-somerville :)18:57
vinzeI've managed to make it :)18:57
jgamiohi cody-somerville18:57
* cody-somerville cheers.18:58
jgamiohi everybody18:58
cody-somervilleIt looks like we've gotten a good turn out18:58
jm1hi cody-somerville18:58
jono_hi all! :)18:59
* vorian waves18:59
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tomplastHello Jono18:59
jonohi vorian tomplast :)18:59
* heno waves19:00
keescook(ubuntu security team meeting: please join #ubuntu-hardened -- we've had a room conflict)19:00
vinzekeescook, perhaps that'd be useful in the topic?19:00
=== ubotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Ubuntu Security Team Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 26 Mar 21:00 UTC: Server Team | 28 Mar 04:00 UTC: MOTU | 02 Apr 21:00 UTC: Server Team | 09 Apr 21:00 UTC: Server Team
highvoltagehello jono19:00
keescookvinze: ubotu controls that.19:01
jonohey highvoltage19:01
vinzeO ok19:01
jonois everyone here?19:02
tomplast#define everyone ?19:02
cody-somervilleJim isn't here.19:02
zoredacheeveryone = people who matter19:02
jonoanyone  who wants to be involved in the xubuntu meeting :)19:02
meborci'm here ;)19:03
tomplastThen at least I'm here :)19:03
tomplastAnd you ;)19:03
vinzecody-somerville, Jim did plan to be there didn't he?19:03
vorian /me waves again :)19:03
cody-somervilleYup. He said he might be a few minutes late though, IIRC.19:03
vinzeO OK19:04
jonook, lets wait a few mins and then begin19:04
* cody-somerville notes that he is at work and will have to leave for 15 minutes in an hour to go home. :)19:04
* meborc makes food for everyone19:04
cody-somervilleSpeak of the devil :)19:04
jonook, all set?19:04
jonoanyone else who should be here?19:05
highvoltagewe could probably do some warm-up talk. who had enough time to properly think about the questions that cody-somerville asked?19:05
j1mchi all.  i have 1 hour.  :)19:05
jonoI have an hour too19:05
vinzeHi j1mc19:05
highvoltageI found some of them a bit tough, but thought of it when I had a few gaps here and there :)19:05
jonofor those who don't know me, I am Jono Bacon, I am the Ubuntu Community Manager19:05
jonoand I generally try to help the community tick along as smoothly as possible19:05
jonowhile listening to very loud metal :)19:05
henohighvoltage: are these questions on a mailing list? Got URL?19:06
jonocody-somerville came to me to raise a few of these problems in the community19:06
vinzeheno, on the mailinglist19:06
highvoltageheno: yes, just a sec and I'll get you a link19:06
jonoand the aim of this meeting is to raise the key issues and begin the road to solving them19:06
highvoltageheno: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/xubuntu-devel/2008-March/005242.html19:06
highvoltageeverybody who hasn't read it yet, please do so before we get going.19:06
jonolets keep this meeting as cordial and happy as possible - it is about fixing problems, and we *can* fix these things19:06
* cody-somerville nods.19:07
jonoso cody-somerville,19:07
jonocould you summarise the key issues in a few short sentances?19:07
* cody-somerville nods.19:07
cody-somervilleI believe the root issue for Xubuntu right now is that it lacks definition. There is no mission statement, no core objectives, no strategy, and no structure. This has resulted in a number of conflicts and has ultimately lead to several key contributors deciding that it isn't worth their time anymore.19:09
jonoso this is something we should absolutely do - produce a mission statement, and a strategy for what you want to achieve with Xubuntu19:10
jonosomething that key contributors agree to19:10
* cody-somerville nods.19:10
_MMA_Are those people even known?19:10
_MMA_"key contributors"19:11
cody-somervilleThats an excellent question.19:11
jono_MMA_: maybe not, but regular contributors may be19:11
jonoI am not talking about importance19:11
jonoI am talking about who does the work19:11
bobiis the decision of the key contributors definitive?19:11
vinzejono, beyond packagers I assume?19:11
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_MMA_jono: Sure. In Ubuntu Studio we have those people on a list.19:11
j1mcwith xubuntu we seem to have a small handful of people who do the packaging / seed work, and a few others who contribute in non-technical areas19:12
jonoI think we need to approach this by first producing an approx strategy19:12
j1mcthe conflict was on the technical side19:12
jonoand then people going in and refining19:12
* cody-somerville nods.19:12
jonoI think it would be advisable for one person to drive these changes where possible19:12
\shhi guys...sorry for being late...just got home19:12
jonois this some people would be happy cody-somerville doing - and would you be interested in doing this cody-somerville?19:12
jonoit is not about just cody-somerville's view, but him fairly taking in feedback and adjusting the strategy19:13
j1mci would be happy with cody drafting the strategy.  i think he has a good take on what xubuntu is about and could be about19:13
vinzeI'm all for cody-somerville19:13
* _MMA_ gives a +1 for Cody as he has been the most active and visible head of Xubuntu for a while.19:13
jonofrom my experience of cody, I would support him to do this too19:14
jonoanyone else?19:14
meborcsupport on my side19:14
highvoltagewell, cody has certainly taken initiative in getting things back on track again, by getting this meeting together and addressing the issues. no one else has. I think xubuntu needs cody-somerville to get things into shape a bit.19:14
charlie-tcaI would support cody19:14
highvoltageso I support him too.19:14
vinzeBtw, cody-somerville, are Lionel and/or Jerome here?19:14
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mr_pouit+1 for cody too19:14
jonocody-somerville: would you be happy to do this work?19:14
cody-somervilleI'd be happy to. :)19:15
jonoso this is a great first step - someone to help drive this process19:15
jonoI can also work with cody-somerville to assist him on getting a good strategy document together19:15
* cody-somerville nods.19:16
cody-somervilleI'd appreciate that.19:16
jonothey key thing is that when this strategy document is in place, that the project can work to it - it will need broad acceptance19:16
vinzeI think that should be no problem if community input is gathered19:16
_MMA_So then it's official, Cody is the lead on Xubuntu? I ask so there is a clear record.19:16
jonook, question for everyone now - please state one sentence aboiut what you feel the purpose of Xubuntu is - if someone else says what you think +1 them19:17
jono_MMA_: no, he is producing a strategy document, not neccessarly a lead19:17
vinzeProducing a user-friendly desktop system, allowing for advanced configuration options without getting bloated19:17
highvoltagejono: could I provide a short reasoning for it?19:17
jonohighvoltage: one sentance please19:17
meborcxubuntu is a LIGHTWEIGHT OS using xfce as a DE and lightweight applications19:17
jonowe don't have a lot of time in this meeting19:17
solar_george+1 <vinze>19:18
bobi+1 vinze19:18
tomplast+1 vinze19:18
highvoltage"Xfce Distribution built on Ubuntu core values with usability as main focus."19:18
charlie-tcaA desktop system for the older, slower systems that are not capable of running most GNOME and KDE19:18
tomplast...and "a low memory footprint"i hope...19:18
meborc+1 charlie-tca19:18
_MMA_jono: I feel this needs to be established in this meeting. Otherwise, you get a continuation of the last cycle.19:18
vorian+1 highvoltage19:18
jono_MMA_: just give me some time19:19
Odd-rationaleXubuntu should aim to be a light and fast OS that uses xfce desktop and xfce/gtk apps as defaults as much as possible.19:19
meborci believe the main fight was in either including or excluding some gnome applications... this should also be somehow said in the statement!19:19
j1mc+1 Odd-rationale19:19
_MMA_+1 highvoltage (even if it means GNOME apps)19:19
mr_pouit+1 Odd-rationale19:20
meborc+1 Odd-rationale19:20
highvoltage_MMA_: yes, that is one of the things I would've like to explain ;)19:20
vinzemeborc, that should follow from the purpose19:20
jonoanyone else?19:20
charlie-tca+1 _MMA_19:20
jonoI am trying to amalgomate much of the key themes into a single mission here19:20
vinzeI think that might become a big problem19:21
meborcvinze, yes, but if the purpose is a wide "political" talk, then anyone can misinterpret it19:21
vinzeTwo goals are quite conflicting19:21
jonowould people agree with this:19:21
jonoTo produce an easy to use distirbution, based on Ubuntu, using Xfce as the graphical desktop, with a focus on integration, usability and performance, with a particular focus of running on lower powered computers. The integration in Xubuntu is at a configuration level, a toolkit level, and matching the underlying technology beneath the desktop in Ubuntu.19:21
vinzeHmm, true19:21
j1mcto me, the key issues are to decide on which side of the user-handholding of gnome and the lightness of gtk-only / xfce apps.19:21
vinzeI don't think this would be a solution19:21
bobii would see performance as the main of the three goals19:21
jonovinze: which bit?19:21
_MMA_And this conflict is why I believe there needs to be a clear lead who can say "THIS is what we're doing".19:21
meborci agree with j1mc19:22
jono_MMA_: please...wait19:22
j1mc_MMA_: agreed19:22
jono_MMA_: we will get there19:22
antares79jono, i think a term like "lower-powered computer" is a little too vague these days.. just my 2¢19:22
Odd-rationalej1mc: I agree19:22
charlie-tca_MMA_ agreed19:22
jonook, in the sentance I posted above, what is good and what is bad?19:22
Seveasantares79, $¢ or €¢?19:22
vinzejono, when you say "focus on integration, usability and performance", then you will still be having the discussions on whether to include heavier but user-friendly applications or not19:22
vinzeBecause usability and performance can conflict19:22
Seveas(oops, sorry, thought I was in -offtopic -- I'll be quiet)19:23
jonovinze: I agree - this is not about specifics, but general goals19:23
bobijono: good is to set the focus on performance, usability and integration19:23
vinzeAh, then I think we can all agree on that19:23
highvoltagejono: I think you missed the ubuntu values part. not sure if that was intentional :)19:23
jonoso do we all agree that the sentence I posted is a general goal19:23
vinze+1 for highvoltage19:23
posingaspopularim worried about that performance bit jono19:23
solar_georgejono yes19:23
tomplastDo we have to say "focus of running on lower powered computers" isn't "focus on making an effective and memory conservative system" better *-).19:24
bobijono: yes, but we need to priorize priority, usability and integration19:24
bobibecause they can conflict19:24
j1mcjono: i think that the "integration in Xubuntu is at a configuration level" requires some clarification, but i like the empahis on lower-powered computers.19:24
jonook everyone, hold up19:24
highvoltagetomplast: indeed. and lots of people run Xubuntu on high-end computers too.19:24
bobisorry, ment performance19:24
jonolet me read19:24
vinzebobi, <jono> this is not about specifics, but general goals19:24
jonoTo produce an easy to use distribution, based on Ubuntu, using Xfce as the graphical desktop, with a focus on integration, usability and performance, with a particular focus on low memory footprint. The integration in Xubuntu is at a configuration level, a toolkit level, and matching the underlying technology beneath the desktop in Ubuntu. Xubuntu will be built and developed as part of the wider Ubuntu community, based around the19:25
jonoideals and values of Ubuntu.19:25
jonohow about that?19:25
bobisounds good19:25
tomplastSound good to me as well :)19:25
vinzeSame here19:25
meborc+1 :)19:25
j1mcjono: still don't understand the "the integration in Xubuntu is at a ..." but maybe i just don't get it because i'm not uber-technical.19:25
j1mcwhat is "the integration?"19:26
jgamiojono: i like change the easy with light19:26
j1mcin plain english19:26
highvoltageI agree too, is it necessary to say "easy to use" and "usibility" though? (I realise their a bit different, but I think it's the usability part that's actualy important)19:26
Odd-rationalewhen you say "with a focus on integration, usability and performance" is it in that order?19:26
jonoj1mc: it basically means - xubuntu will be integrated and feel like a unit with configuration, the gui toolkit19:26
vinzeOdd-rationale, <jono> this is not about specifics, but general goals19:26
j1mcjono: ok. thank.19:27
bobijust a short general question: is there a place for new, unexperienced developers to help with xubuntu?19:27
cody-somervilleFor Xubuntu, I'd personally like Xubuntu be a powerful, useful desktop that is smart, concise, and usable.19:27
vinzebobi, I'd say a post to the xubuntu-devel mailinglist would be good to get you started19:27
posingaspopularbobi: yes, and it depends on where you want to start19:27
jonoso would everyone agree that my sentence is a good general goal19:27
vinzebobi, and there's always xubuntu.org/devel19:27
jonodoes anything scream out as wrong?19:27
bobijono: yes19:27
antares79jono, should this statement help to resolve conflicts between "integration and usability" (ie. feature-rich gnome apps) and "low memory footprint" (ie. gtk-only apps)?19:27
antares79if not, then +1 ;-)19:28
jonowe are getting into specifics too much people19:28
cody-somervillejono, My only concern is making the primary emphasis a light memory footprint.19:28
jonoI want _general_ concensus on _general_ goals19:28
_MMA_jono: To me, it doesnt settle to core conflict that has been going on over this dev cycle.19:28
cody-somervilleI think Xubuntu should be useful before light.19:28
antares79alright, then +119:28
vinzeSo nothing is emphasized yet19:28
Odd-rationalejono: Generally, good.19:28
jono_MMA_: listen...I am going to get to this19:28
meborcif general goal is for low memory, then i'm for it19:28
jono_MMA_: this is an iterative process19:28
_MMA_jono: See my PM.19:28
meborcjono, sorry, this is a very painful topic for many of us19:29
vinzeXubuntu has a few goals, there has been a conflict on which has the highest priority, but atm we're just defining those goals, right?19:29
* cody-somerville notes that almost half of the meeting is up for most people.19:29
highvoltagejono: to be honest, it's difficult to get general consensus when it affects big specific things that are important to many people, such as the gnome libs inclusion issue.19:29
jonoall I am looking for before we discuss any specifics of leadership, or specific libraries or gnome inclusion, is a general viewpoint on what we are trying to achieve19:30
jonoit seems that me in a nutshell you folks want to produce a sleek, usable distro with a focus on performance19:30
* j1mc nods19:30
Odd-rationalejono: Correct. That is what I want.19:30
cody-somervilleIMHO, I don't think we have the expertise to have a focus on performance.19:30
cody-somervilleAlthough, I think we could certainly strive to be light weight.19:31
solar_georgesounds about right19:31
_MMA_jono: What Xubuntu is trying to achieve is really up to the people involved.19:31
jonoright - I am just looking for a general agreement on what the  high level goals are19:31
\shjono: I think xubuntu has the very same problem as Kubuntu has, which is integration with the core part of ubuntu...so I think to get Xubuntu on track, you should focus on core OS integration level (hal, dbus et all)19:31
jono\sh: indeed this is _general_ goals19:31
* meborc has to leave :( but i'm screaming on my way - MAKE XUBUNTU LIGHT AGAIN :) have a nice evening all...19:32
jonoplease folks, we will get to specifics, but before we can we need to understand what is the general goal of Xubuntu19:32
jonoit seems that "To produce an easy to use distribution, based on Ubuntu, using Xfce as the graphical desktop, with a focus on integration, usability and performance, with a particular focus on low memory footprint. The integration in Xubuntu is at a configuration level, a toolkit level, and matching the underlying technology beneath the desktop in Ubuntu. Xubuntu will be built and developed as part of the wider Ubuntu community, ba19:32
jonosed around the ideals and values of Ubuntu." seems to cater for most general goals19:32
highvoltagejono: well, it seems that in _general_, people do actually agree with that general goal19:32
jonohow those thngs are implemented is another discussion naturally19:32
* j1mc nods19:33
vinzeOK, so I think we all agree on that?19:33
jonoso it seems the key themes are: usability, performance, integration, community processes19:33
Odd-rationaleI agree with that goal statement.19:33
jonook cool19:33
cody-somervilleI think that statement is a good start, +119:33
jononow what I think we need to do is to use that statement as a general mission statement for the project19:34
jonowe can now begin discuss exactly how this is implemented19:34
jononow, I want to focus on what _MMA_ discussed19:34
jonothere seems to be a lot of faith in cody-somerville19:34
jonodo you all feel there should be a leader, and if so, would it be cody-somerville?19:34
vinzeI think currently Lionel is project lead, right?19:35
jono(you don't have to say if you would want to be a leader, yet)19:35
cody-somervillevinze, Lionel has stopped contributing to Xubuntu for the time being19:35
vinzeOw, OK, thanks cody-somerville19:35
jonoI personally feel cody-somerville is demonstrated good leadership skills from what I have seen19:36
highvoltageafaik, cody-somerville seems to be the only person who has made himself available to do it, and he seems capable to me.19:36
jonowhat does everyone else think?19:36
_MMA_I have watched Cody really step up. He is active in the Ubuntu development channels and looks to really want Xubuntu to shine again.19:36
j1mci get the feeling that, if we have a leader, that they will likely have the final say on some technical matters, and that everyone might not agree with their perspective, but that is part of having a leader.  i just think it's important to mention that.19:36
Odd-rationale+1 cody-somerville19:36
tomplastHas Lionel said anything about this?19:36
bobi+1 cody19:36
j1mcmr_pouit: ?19:36
vinzeOn the other hand, I think we should involve Lionel in this19:36
vinzeAnd mr_pouit19:36
solar_george+1 cody-somerville19:36
cody-somervillevinze, mr_pouit is Lionel :)19:36
vinzeEhm, wait19:36
_MMA_I have had many talks with Cody and also looks to be able to devote the time needed.19:36
vinzeSorry, Jerome I meant >.<19:36
mr_pouitj1mc: I'm still ok with cody ;)19:36
vinze(What's his nick?)19:36
jonook, next question:19:37
vinzeThanks smarter19:37
j1mc+1 for cody... :)  (had to get that in there)19:37
cody-somerville:) thanks.19:37
jonowould you all be happy for cody-somerville to lead the project, based upon the general goal we agreed earlier?19:37
posingaspopular+1 cody19:37
_MMA_+1 Cody19:37
solar_george+1 cody-somerville19:37
jononext question:19:38
jonodo you think that Xubuntu would REALLY KICK ARSE with cody-somerville leading and based on that general goal earlier? :)19:38
highvoltagejono: for the record, Xubuntu already really kicks arse ;)19:38
highvoltage(but yes, it would)19:38
tomplast+1 from what I have seen so far19:39
bobi:) +119:39
vinze+1 for highvoltage's comment :)19:39
vinzeBut yeah19:39
jonocody-somerville: would you be interested in leading the Xubuntu project?19:39
cody-somervilleYes, sir! :)19:39
jonoin which case we have made three important steps forward here:19:40
jono1) picked a leader19:40
jono2) agreed on a general mission statement of goals19:40
jono3) agreed that cody-somerville will develop a strategy based on that mission statement19:40
Odd-rationalenow for specifics?19:41
j1mci just want to reiterate that, part of having a leader is that we may not always agree with cody's gnome/non-gnome app choices, but that we need to make sure that we're respectful of each other in the decision-making processes, and that we still work together as a community.19:41
cody-somervilleWell said j1mc19:41
_MMA_j1mc: +119:41
Odd-rationalej1mc: +119:41
jonoI believe the next step is for cody-somerville to develop an initial strategy based on his experience of the project, and then we can use that as a basis for the next meeting19:42
jonowe need something to work from to move forward effectively19:42
jonoso I recommend cody-somerville works on this document and then presents it to the community for comment and we schedule another meeting19:42
* cody-somerville nods.19:42
posingaspopularwhen would the next meeting be?19:42
jonoposingaspopular: whenever cody-somerville has the document completed19:43
jonoI recommend in a week or so19:43
vinzeI think you can track xubuntu-devel for that19:43
posingaspopulari certainly dont want to rush cody-somerville19:43
vinze(Perhaps a notice on xubuntu.org?)19:43
jonoI think cody-somerville is likely to be well aware of the key themes and concerns19:43
jonoand his strategy should seek to satisfy the general goals we agreed earlier19:43
jonois everyone in favour of this step forward?19:43
highvoltagewell, maybe there should be some kind of draft in about a week or so, and then there could be a request for comments.19:44
jonogreat stuff19:44
vinzeThanks jono19:44
jonoI think we made some good progress here folks :)19:44
_MMA_I'd also like to see some of this CC'e to the devel-discuss ML.19:44
jonoI will help cody-somerville flesh something definitive out, and then lets meet again when the document is complete19:44
bobiat least, it's a very good first step19:45
jonoI would recommend posting the meeting log19:45
jonothanks everyone for your participation19:45
Odd-rationaleThanks, jono.19:45
Odd-rationaleGood luck, cody-somerville19:45
cody-somervilleThank you everyone for your kind words19:45
* vinze thanks jono and our newly-apponted leader cody-somerville :)19:45
cody-somervilleI appreciate your faith and I look forward to working with all of you19:45
bobicongratulations cody-somerville ;)19:45
vinzeCongrats cody-somerville :)19:45
cody-somervilleAnd a big thanks to jono for coming out to help us19:45
highvoltageand thanks cody-somerville19:45
vorianbest of luck cody-somerville :)19:45
solar_georgeall hail cody-somerville19:45
* _MMA_ wonders if Cody is old enough to get a pint in Prague? :P19:45
jonocody-somerville: your welcome :)19:45
posingaspopularcongrats cody-somerville19:46
highvoltageand thanks to jono too. this might have been a very long meeting without him :)19:46
posingaspopularthanks jono19:46
tomplastCongrats cody-somerville19:46
cody-somerville_MMA_, I'm sure we'll share a few ;]19:46
jonono worries folks :)19:46
vinzehighvoltage, we're no easy crows, eh? ;-)19:46
charlie-tca_good luck cody-somerville19:46
tomplastyou will need it :E. I vote for only KDE-apps in Xubuntu ;)19:46
cody-somervilleI welcome everyone over to #xubuntu-devel for further chit chatting and brainstorming :)19:46
vinze+1 for tomplast :P19:46
highvoltagevinze: heh, yes.19:46
jonolater all19:47
vinzeBye jono19:47
tomplastbye Jono, bring some bacon next time ;)19:47
cody-somervilleI can write up a meeting summary and post it/send it out/etc. if nobody else absolutely wants to :)19:47
bobibye jono, thanks19:47
* highvoltage hits the end-of-meeting-gong19:47
jonobye all! :)19:47
vinzetomplast, I bet he never heard that one before :P19:47
tomplastvinze: Couldn't resist :p19:47
vinzecody-somerville, I can do it too if you'd like19:47
=== ember_ is now known as ember
michalskiquestion: im facing dst changes in my country, is the server team meeting now or in 1 hour?19:53
sommermichalski: an hour19:54
michalski... lol :P19:54
zoredacheit is currently 19:54 utc...19:54
Seveasargh, meeting in progress says ubotu19:54
Seveasmichalski, /msg ubotu now19:54
michalskimichalski, /msg ubotu now19:54
Seveasmichalski, and /msg ubotu schedule19:54
james_w#ubuntu-hardened I believe19:55
ubotuUbuntu releases a new version every 6 months. Each version is supported for 18 months to 5 years. More info at http://www.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/releases & http://wiki.ubuntu.com/TimeBasedReleases19:55
michalskiok woh woh, server team meeting is here, in 1 hour got it19:55
michalski:) thank you19:55
michalskii cant attend...19:56
michalskicadets is starting in an hour, sommer can you pass this on19:56
sommermichalski: sure, that you won't make it?19:57
vinzemichalski, I'd check in #ubuntu-hardened, there was some message about that at the beginning of the Xubuntu meeting but I can't find it in my logs :(19:58
michalskithanks vinze but im not with the Xubuntu team :), server team19:59
michalskifor me19:59
michalskiyes sommer, cadets is starting at 21:00zulu, i could attend the meetings before daylight savings time but ugh darn it20:00
michalskizulu=gmt=utc :)20:00
vinzemichalski, yes, but there was a message for those from the server team at the start of the Xubuntu meeting20:01
vinzemichalski, because of an agenda conflict20:01
michalskioh realy?20:01
vinzeJust check that room, I'm not sure :P20:02
sommervinze: I think the announcement was for the security team, which is different than server :-)20:02
vinzesommer, ah, thanks :)20:02
vinzejeromeg, timezone error? :)20:03
jeromegvinze: nope, lot of homework20:03
vinzejeromeg, ah :)20:03
jeromegi'm just staying here for a few minutes, then will have to leave :)20:04
vinzejeromeg, it's finished already :)20:05
jeromegoh :)20:05
jeromegthat's why nothing happens :)20:05
vinzeI'm going to type up a summary in a sec20:05
cody-somervillejeromeg, discussion is still strong in #xubuntu-devel20:09
ubotuCurrent time in Etc/UTC: March 26 2008, 20:10:49 - Current meeting: Xubuntu20:10
TuxCrafteris the xubuntu-meeting still in process?20:29
TuxCraftermichalski: thanks20:30
vinzeTuxCrafter, join #xubuntu-devel for more discussion20:30
=== ubotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 26 Mar 21:00 UTC: Server Team | 28 Mar 04:00 UTC: MOTU | 02 Apr 21:00 UTC: Server Team | 09 Apr 21:00 UTC: Server Team | 16 Apr 21:00 UTC: Server Team | 23 Apr 21:00 UTC: Server Team
=== ubotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Server Team Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 28 Mar 04:00 UTC: MOTU | 02 Apr 21:00 UTC: Server Team | 09 Apr 21:00 UTC: Server Team | 16 Apr 21:00 UTC: Server Team | 23 Apr 21:00 UTC: Server Team
=== Lutin is now known as lutin
=== ubotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Server Team Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 28 Mar 04:00 UTC: MOTU | 02 Apr 21:00 UTC: Server Team | 09 Apr 21:00 UTC: Server Team | 10 Apr 20:00 UTC: Security Team meeting | 16 Apr 21:00 UTC: Server Team
* mathiaz gets some popcorn for the upcoming server meeting20:58
* keescook waves "hi"20:59
* owh sips coffee and waves after less than an hour sleep.20:59
* faulkes- whistles innocently20:59
* kirkland tips his hat21:00
jdstrand \o21:00
* dthacker-work silences his pager....again21:00
mathiazalright - let's get started !21:01
* nijaba waves21:01
MootBotMeeting started at 22:01. The chair is mathiaz.21:01
MootBotCommands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]21:01
mathiazToday's agenda is located on this wiki page: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Meeting21:01
mathiazIf anyone would like to add point to be discussed, please update the wiki page21:02
mathiazand I'll make sure your brilliant idea will be discussed during this meeting21:02
mathiaz[TOPIC] Review ACTION points from previous meeting.21:03
MootBotNew Topic:  Review ACTION points from previous meeting.21:03
sorenUh, oh.21:03
mathiazThe previous meeting minutes: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/Server/2008031921:03
mathiaz[TOPIC] iscsi support21:03
MootBotNew Topic:  iscsi support21:03
* michalski waves but must leave for cadets in 5 mins21:04
sorenErm... I forget if we covered this part of it, but slangasek said it'd be fine to do it even now that we're past beta.21:04
sorenSo we're doing it.21:04
mathiazsoren: yeah - we said that21:04
mathiazfaulkes-: did you manage to get access to your iSCSI hardware ?21:05
sorenAh, right last wednesday.21:05
sorenWEll, I've been on holiday Thursday->Monday, so not a lot has happened since then.21:05
sorenI'm still trying to wrap my head around what needs to be done to the installer, to make the resulting system figure out that it needs to mount stuff over the network.21:06
mathiazsoren: when do you think you'll get something ready for testing ?21:06
sorenI'm probably going to ask someone with more experience in this area for pointers tomorrow or something.21:06
sorenIf we're lucky, by the end of this week.21:06
mathiazsoren: have you discussed with slangasek about a deadline to get it included ?21:06
mathiazsoren: I don't think we want to ship this just before RC21:07
sorenI forget when that is.21:07
mathiazsoren: in two weeks and 1 day from now21:07
sorenOk. That should be plenty of time.21:07
mathiazsoren: RC is three weeks after beta, which was released last thursday21:07
sorenGot it.21:08
mathiaz[TOPIC] status action for init script21:09
MootBotNew Topic:  status action for init script21:09
mathiazkirkland: I think you've updated the Roadmap21:09
* michalski must go but will leave irc client on and review meeting afterwards21:09
kirklandmathiaz: yep.  in brief, we've abandoned this item for Hardy21:09
michalskisorry mathiaz, dst21:09
mathiazthis whole point was deferred for after Intrepid21:10
mathiazmichalski: np21:10
mathiazhum - for Intrepid sorry21:10
kirklandmathiaz: will work on in Intrepid, with Keybuk and upstart, possibly a blueprint for UDS Prague21:10
kirklandmathiaz: goal remains noble and important!  :-)21:10
owhIs there any point in making the patches available for those admins wanting the functionality?21:11
mathiazkirkland: great - we'll discuss that during UDS then21:11
mathiazowh: I don't think so21:11
mathiazowh: it's not worth taking the time to do it IMO21:11
owhmathiaz: They have already been written.21:11
kirklandowh: leave them attached to bugs in launchpad21:11
kirklandowh: if someone is so motivated, they should be able to find them there21:12
mathiazkirkland: right - that's enough I think21:12
kirklandowh: and we may well revisit them come Intrepid21:12
owhkirkland: Should we add them all to the same lsb bug?21:12
kirklandowh: that, or link that one to the other bugs that contain such patches21:12
mathiazkirkland: probably not - upstart doesn't use the system-v init script at all21:12
kirklandmathiaz: will the upstart conversion be COMPLETED in Intrepid?21:12
owhkirkland: Cool, we'll talk later.21:13
kirklandowh: fair 'nuff21:13
mathiazowh: one thing you should do is send them to debian21:13
owhI'll action that for me for next week's meeting.21:13
sorenkirkland: We need to to them all at once.21:13
owhmathiaz: And that too.21:13
mathiazowh: if they're accepted there, we'll get them automatically during Intreprid21:13
sorenkirkland: Well, that's not strictly true..21:13
owhmathiaz: Yup.21:13
kirklandmathiaz: good idea.21:13
mathiazsoren: all at once ?21:14
mathiazsoren: I thought it can be done a per package basis21:14
sorenWe need to start at one end and work our way to the other.21:14
sorenWe can't usefully just pick one init script, convert it, pick the next, convert it..21:14
owhmathiaz: Technically there is an lsb patch needed before the init script patches will work.21:14
sorenWe need to start at S01foo and work our way to S99 or the other way around.21:14
kirklandsoren: we were thinking doing it massively in parallel, in that it's very small, compact work that a lot of minimally experienced developers can hack out21:15
mathiazsoren: hum - I see your point. Anyway that will be discussed during UDS21:15
sorenBecause from upstart's point of view, starting *all* of rc2.d/S* is just one event.21:15
owhsoren: kirkland and I targetted those that are installed in hardy.21:15
sorenSo if we pick stuff out from the middle, we can't ensure the ordering.21:15
mathiaz[ACTION] owh to attach existing patches to bugs in LP and forward them to Debian21:15
MootBotACTION received:  owh to attach existing patches to bugs in LP and forward them to Debian21:16
sorenkirkland: Cool.21:16
mathiazGreat - let's move on.21:16
sorenkirkland: It's just not very obvious, so I wanted to point it out just to be sure.21:16
mathiaz[TOPIC] Server Survey and Brainstorm21:16
MootBotNew Topic:  Server Survey and Brainstorm21:16
nijabanot much new on that subject21:17
mathiazSo I was wondering how these two things were integrating together21:17
nijabafaulkes fixed the last 2 bugs21:17
nijabaand I packaged limesurvey21:17
mathiazcould the survey leverage the brainstorm site ?21:17
nijabawhat do you mean integrating the 221:17
mathiazor some of the question of the survey be also presented on brainstorm ?21:18
keescookapologies: I continue not to have time to audit limesurvey -- it is at the top of my audit TODO list now, though.21:18
nijabaI don't really see how we could link the 2...21:18
zulkeescook: I did a quick lookthrough for nijaba I didnt go to deep though21:18
kirklandmathiaz: I'm not seeing this either...  you'd want to publish nijaba's survey questions as suggestions to brainstorm?21:19
nijabazul: keescook is talking abut a secuorty audit21:19
mathiaznijaba: I don't know how the survey is structured - can some questions be also posted to brainstorm ?21:19
zulnijaba: ah21:19
mathiazkirkland: yes21:19
mathiazI didn't mean link in a technical sense - more on the content21:19
kirklandmathiaz: the survey is more like "how do you use your linux server?  what kind are they?"  etc...21:20
nijabamathiaz: really, brainstorm is totally different21:20
kirklandmathiaz: brainstorm is more like "i want a perpetual motion machine, can you please make ubuntu do one for me?"21:20
nijabawe don't ask and vote for ideas in the survey21:20
mathiaznijaba: ok - so don't ask question such as "would you like to see better virtualization?" and so on21:21
sorenOoh! Oh! And a pony!21:21
nijabamathiaz: no we don't21:21
mathiaznijaba: it's more about what do you do with ubuntu server ? what is your environment... and so on.21:21
owhsoren: No, the best one was: "I want Ubuntu to boot on an Apple TV without hacking."21:22
nijabamathiaz: correct21:22
mathiaznijaba: ok - thanks for the clarification.21:22
mathiazI got a question from jono about that.21:22
sorenowh: Fantastic.21:22
nijabaso invite jono to take a test drive of the survey21:22
mathiaz[TOPIC] integration of dovecot/postfix sasl21:23
MootBotNew Topic:  integration of dovecot/postfix sasl21:23
mathiazivoks: so what's going on there ?21:23
ivoksmathiaz: i suggest creating new binary inside of dovecot source package21:24
ivokswhich would depend on postfix and dovecot-common21:24
ivoksproblematic part is; how to handle dovecot's configuration21:24
mathiazivoks: IIRC this was to get around the policy that a package cannot modify another package configuration files21:25
ivoksoption one is to patch it so it doesn't fail when starting, if there's no postfix installed21:25
ivoksoption two is to patch dovecot.conf with that new binary21:25
ivoksi'm not sure option two is leagal21:25
sorenWhy not?21:26
owhivoks: What about shipping two configurations and launching with the appropriate one?21:26
ivoksowh: i was investigating if it is possible to include part of the configuration, but that is not possible21:26
mathiazsoren: well - you can't modify from postinst script the conffile of another package21:26
owhivoks: I mean the init.d script can figure out how to start the application appropriately.21:27
ivoksmathiaz: well, we already do that in dovecot21:27
sorenmathiaz: Another binary package? Sure you can.21:27
ivoksowh: but, what if user edits dovecot.conf?21:27
sorenmathiaz: As long as:21:27
mathiazivoks: yes - that's write - we do that with -popd and -imap21:27
sorena) it's from the same source package21:27
sorenb) the owner package provides a tool to fiddle with it.21:27
* faulkes- gets coffee21:28
ivokssoren: can you give me a solid reference for a)? :)21:28
mathiazsoren: in our case if would a)21:28
mathiazivoks: dovecot does that21:28
owhivoks: You can combine the parts into a running config file and launch with that.21:28
sorenThe purpose of that particular part of the policy is to make sure that anything that happens to conffile foo is under control.21:28
sorenNot conffile.21:28
sorenconfig file.21:29
ivoksright, dovecot.conf isn't a conffile21:29
mathiazdovecot.conf is handled via ucf21:29
sorenIf you're not using conffiles, it's your responsibility to make sure upgrades are handled sanely etc., etc.21:29
ivoksowh: not very easy...21:29
sorenThat's impossible if you're not controlling the changes to it.21:30
mathiazivoks: I think your proposal to create a new package dovecot-postfix-sasl binary package makes sense21:30
mathiazivoks: we're already doing similar things in -pop and -imap21:30
sorenYou can do that by providing a tool to do it (think postconf) or if it's all done by packages from the same source package.21:30
ivoksmathiaz: right, trough postinst21:30
mathiazivoks: you can probably base your patch on the code from -pop or -imap21:31
ivoksso, everybody in favour of modifying dovecot.conf trough new-binary's postinst?21:31
mathiazivoks: it's a perl command IIRC21:31
owhI'm not convinced its too complicated this late in the game.21:31
ivoksmathiaz: well, you have only one 'protocols' in dovecot.conf, but lots of 'server' and 'client'21:31
* soren dreams of dovecot providing a tool to do this sort of thing21:31
mathiazivoks: WFM - we're already doing it in the -pop and -imap packages21:31
mathiazowh: good point - that was another issue I was about to raise21:32
mathiazI'm not sure we'll get a FFe for that21:32
* owh got slapped down with a simple init script patch :)21:32
mathiazIt may be too late in the release cycle for that.21:32
ivoksmathiaz: imho, that's caused by bad FF process21:32
owhivoks: What happens if you do nothing?21:33
ivoksmathiaz: we had patch for tasksel, and it was rejected in the last minute21:33
ivokswhile, it was available for months21:33
owhivoks: That is, if you make no changes, what breaks?21:33
mathiazivoks: right.21:33
mathiazowh: nothing21:33
mathiazowh: it's just a new feature21:33
owhWhat about adding a paragraph to the README?21:33
mathiazowh: so the question is whether it will be tested enough21:34
owhNon-invasive, simple, etc.21:34
ivoksowh: we want to provide out of the box super mail server21:34
mathiazivoks: I think we should talk to the release team anyway21:34
owhmathiaz: So, make the README point to a wiki page.21:34
ivoksmathiaz: i agree21:34
owhs/README/README paragraph/21:35
mathiazivoks: so either you can detail your new proposal in the bug and ask the release team about it21:35
mathiazivoks: or provide a debdiff and attach it to the LP bug and talk to the release team21:35
ivoksmathiaz: i'll provide debdiff21:35
owhIn terms of config file changes, how much effort is involved for a system administrator to make this work?21:36
mathiazivoks: in the event of refusal, we'd have a debdiff ready for intrepid21:36
mathiazowh: well - the procedure is straightforward21:36
mathiazowh: this is why we want to provide a package to do it ;)21:36
owhI would be in favour of documenting it, providing a sample config perhaps and moving on.21:36
sommerowh: it's documented21:37
mathiazowh: ^^ - yes21:37
ivoksowh: feature is documented and well known21:37
mathiazowh: this step is automate it21:37
ivoksowh: it's stupid not to provide it by default, when everybody does it manually afterwards :)21:37
owhI understand that, but its a new feature.21:37
owhWhat ever you call it :)21:37
ivokss/everybody/everybody that's aware of it/21:37
mathiaz[ACTION] ivoks to attach a new debdiff to the LP bug and ask the release team about a FFe21:38
MootBotACTION received:  ivoks to attach a new debdiff to the LP bug and ask the release team about a FFe21:38
mathiazowh: yes.21:38
owhI'm not disagreeing with you, just putting up a fight that you're going to have in a few moments with the release team.21:38
mathiazHowever, even if we don't get it in hardy, we'll get it into intrepid21:38
* owh is trying to help you strengthen your argument ;)21:38
ivoksmathiaz: ok21:39
mathiazivoks: just keep in mind that it may be rejected for hardy21:39
ivoksi'm aware of that21:39
mathiaz[TOPIC] Documentation and the server guide21:40
MootBotNew Topic:  Documentation and the server guide21:40
mathiazsommer: Do you start to have feedback from the translators ?21:40
sommermathiaz: yep, got a bunch of spelling mistakes fixed :-)21:40
sommerthere's a bunch of ideas for intrepid in the server team idea pool as well21:41
mathiazNow that the server guide is frozen for hardy, it may be worth spending some time on the wiki pages21:41
sommermathiaz: yep, my plan is to work on the Samba sections I've been putting off... heh21:41
mathiazsommer: is there any progress on the macros to be able to mark the release for which the wiki page is relevant ?21:42
sommermathiaz: not sure, I can check on that though21:42
sommerI've heard rumors that the wiki install will be updated?21:43
mathiazsommer: reading through the list of the wiki page on the roadmap, I'd suggest to start with AD integration21:43
sommermathiaz: cool, will do21:43
mathiazsommer: the arrival of likewise-open in hardy should make things much simpler to setup21:43
sommerthat's been my experience :)21:44
mathiazsommer: could you prioritize the list on the Roadmap and use numbered list instead of a bullet point list ?21:44
sommermathiaz: sure21:44
* sommer has a thing for bullets21:44
zuloh dear :)21:44
mathiaz[ACTION] sommer to start working on the wiki page related to samba and update the roadmap list21:45
MootBotACTION received:  sommer to start working on the wiki page related to samba and update the roadmap list21:45
mathiaz[TOPIC] Virtualization21:45
MootBotNew Topic:  Virtualization21:45
mathiazsoren: anything new on this front ?21:45
* soren thinks21:47
jdstranddidn't a patch make it to allow for bridged networks to work right?21:47
jdstrand(and the wiki updated)21:47
mathiazjdstrand: are you refering to hal's patch ?21:47
keescookbridged always worked okay (but was recently more well documented)21:47
sorenDon't think so. Thursday->Monday holiday. Tuesday: Catch up on e-mail. Today: other stuff.21:47
mathiazI was able to setup a bridge network for my server and it works well21:47
keescookthe hal patch was for odd-ball interfaces (like my VLAN ifaces)21:47
* jdstrand is not sure what he is referring to, as he hasn't used bridged networking with kvm yet ;)21:47
mathiazsoren: right - I've forgot about this..21:48
sorenmathiaz: :) No worries.21:48
keescookon the general virtualization topic, I uploaded a fix so that virt-clone would actually work.  :)21:48
sommerkeescook: sweet21:48
jdstrandkeescook: oh and it works well! thanks!21:48
=== \sh is now known as \sh_away
sorenkeescook: Ah, right. Thanks for that!21:48
sorenkeescook: Saved me the trouble :)21:48
keescookhehe :)21:49
mathiazkeescook: jdstrand so you guys are running all the security testing with kvm now ?21:49
mathiazkeescook: jdstrand it may be an interesting story to showcase somehow21:49
mathiaznijaba: ^^21:49
keescookmathiaz: yup -- I used jdstrand's conversion tool and uninstalled vmware21:49
nijabamathiaz: noted21:49
jdstrandI have been fine tuning it21:49
mathiazkeescook: jdstrand and you're testing desktop apps with it21:50
mathiazie run with X21:50
jdstrandbut I have i386 and amd64 and amd64/2 vcpus for all four releases and hardy21:50
jdstrandmathiaz: absolutely21:50
jdstrandI have ones with just 'ubuntu-standard' and others with 'ubuntu-desktop'21:50
jdstrandI now use virt-clone to clone one of my pristine vms so I can do development/patching21:51
jdstrandthey are *very* handy21:51
mathiazI think that is the main usage for of us, developers21:51
mathiazso documenting it, the same way pbuilder and sbuild are, could be worth21:51
keescookmathiaz: yup, it's great.21:51
jdstrandand the combination of virt-clone, ubuntu-vm-builder and kvm is *awesome*21:51
jdstrandmathiaz: I think soren was woking on an sbuild-kvm21:52
sorenjdstrand: "working" is a bit of an overstatement.21:52
jdstrandor at least thinking about it :)21:52
sorenPrecisely :)21:52
* jdstrand 'thinks' it would be a good idea21:52
sorenI have a few ideas, but they've yet to be translated into actual code.21:53
sorenIt's intrepid material.21:53
soren(if I do it the way, I'm thinking about doing it)21:53
mathiazOk - I think that's all for the Roadmap/ReportingPage review21:53
nealmcbwill there be a jeos iso for hardy 64-bit?  or does vm-builder make the isos not that important?21:53
mathiaznealmcb: jeos images are available for hardy IIRC21:54
nijabanealmcb: no 64b -virtual kernel AFAIK21:54
nealmcbfor i386, but not 6421:54
jdstrandah yes-- iso testing in kvm worked great last week21:54
mathiaznijaba: correct - I've asked for a amd64 flavour it was declined by the kernel team21:55
mathiaznealmcb: yes - only i386 at the moment21:55
nijabamathiaz: reasoning?21:55
mathiaznealmcb: nothing will change for hardy21:55
nealmcbfine - I've always liked the vm-builder better21:55
mathiaznijaba: too late in the release cycle21:55
nijabamathiaz: ok21:55
mathiaz[TOPIC] Any other business21:56
MootBotNew Topic:  Any other business21:56
mathiazAnyone has come up with a great idea during this meeting ?21:56
nijabanealmcb: but what we need is the 64b kernel, even with u-v-b21:56
faulkes-I'm still waiting on access to our colo to test our iscsi21:56
kirklandmathiaz: hmm, i had a thought....21:56
faulkes-I'm hoping for that to happen this week21:56
owhmathiaz: Just to note that the dovecot bug you asked me to look at I've handed back as it does not appear to relate to hardy.21:56
nealmcbnijaba: ooh - hmmm...21:56
mathiazowh: yop - seen that. Thanks for the investigation21:57
nealmcbhow important is 64 bit for virtualization?21:57
mathiazowh: if you want to keep working on it, you'd have to figure out what's wrong in dapper21:57
kirklandmathiaz: with the 5-a-day push, and hardy beta testing ensuing, would it make sense for you or one of the other core members to bring forward a few high priority hardy server bugs in this meeting?21:57
owhmathiaz: In my spare life I'll think about it :)21:57
kirklandmathiaz: and look for volunteers to solve?21:57
mathiazkirkland: good suggestion21:58
kirklandmathiaz: not making this a bug meeting, note.21:58
mathiazkirkland: I'll try to compile a list of the high-profile bug for the server team21:58
kirklandmathiaz: but sift a few to the top, and throw out them out here21:58
mathiazkirkland: I'll use the qa-server tag21:58
mathiazkirkland: yes - I think it's important to have a new topic about high profile bug the close we get to release21:59
owhmathiaz: What about a general action point to review the hardy-qa bugs regularly.21:59
mathiazowh: I'll update the meeting agenda21:59
jdstrandmathiaz, kirkland: here is one-- 15594722:00
mathiaz[ACTION] mathiaz to update the meeting agenda to make sure we review high-profile bugs until release22:00
MootBotACTION received:  mathiaz to update the meeting agenda to make sure we review high-profile bugs until release22:00
mathiazbug 15594722:00
ubotuLaunchpad bug 155947 in libnss-ldap "ldap config  causes Ubuntu to hang at a reboot" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/15594722:00
mathiaz[ACTION] mathiaz to compile a list of high priority bugs for the server team22:01
MootBotACTION received:  mathiaz to compile a list of high priority bugs for the server team22:01
kirklandjdstrand: yep, just that sort of thing22:01
kirklandwithout making this meeting a complete bug meeting :-)22:02
mathiaz[TOPIC] Agree on next meeting date and time.22:02
MootBotNew Topic:  Agree on next meeting date and time.22:02
mathiazSame time, same place, next week ?22:02
nijabaDST comes in next week in europe22:03
nijabathat will maje the meeting at 2300 CET22:03
nijabaa bit late...22:03
owhnijaba: If you make it any earlier, I'll be fast asleep.22:04
mathiaznijaba: ok - so I guess can move back the meeting22:04
* owh is at UTC+922:04
nijabaok, then, let's not change anything22:04
owhUnless of course you don't want my scintillating contributions :)22:04
mathiazsoren: ^^ ?22:04
* nijaba thinks we need owh 22:04
* sommer likes things that scintillate22:05
* owh gets ready to rub hands to generate some static :)22:06
sorenLet's move it an hour.22:06
sorenThat's fine.22:06
mathiazsoren: 2300 CET for you works ?22:06
mathiazsoren: we wouldn't move the meeting time22:06
nealmcbsoren: did you read about owh/au time also?22:06
sorenThat keeps it at the local time that most of us agreed on back in the day.22:06
sorennealmcb: No, sorry.22:07
mathiazsoren: It'd stay at 21:00 UTC22:07
sorenOh, ok.22:07
sorenErm... Well, 2300 CET is ok.22:07
sorenI don't sleep anyway.22:07
* nijaba wonders if soren *ever* sleep22:07
sorenSo does my wife.22:07
nealmcbsoren is a bot22:07
mathiazok - so next week, same time - 21:00 UTC, same place22:07
owhnealmcb: A pretty smart one at that :)22:08
* nealmcb nods vigorously22:08
nealmcbData with a soul....22:08
mathiazThanks all and shake well Beta to find all the bugs22:08
nijabathanks mathiaz22:09
owhThanks mathiaz22:09
sommerlater on all22:09
jdstrandthaks mathiaz!22:09
ivokssorry, i fall a sleep22:09
* nijaba signs off singing "shake it shake it, shake it good"22:09
ivoksbye all :)22:09
MootBotMeeting finished at 23:10.22:10
nealmcbivoks: nighty night :-)22:10
=== ubotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 28 Mar 04:00 UTC: MOTU | 02 Apr 21:00 UTC: Server Team | 09 Apr 21:00 UTC: Server Team | 10 Apr 20:00 UTC: Security Team meeting | 16 Apr 21:00 UTC: Server Team | 23 Apr 21:00 UTC: Server Team

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