[00:01] <L1pe> hi everyone
[00:01] <DPic> hello
[00:01] <xnox> heya
[00:02] <DPic> alrighty, so how many people are here for the marketing team meeting?
[00:03] <xnox> 3? =D
[00:03] <L1pe> :)
[00:04] <DPic> i hope the DST change didn't confuse people, emmajane was patient enough to wait an hour
[00:04] <xnox> Huh?
[00:04] <emmajane> I'm not sure how long I can stay though. :/
[00:05] <boredandblogging> hello
[00:05]  * xnox 's clock bangs midnight
[00:05] <DPic> xnox: she came at 7pm EST when it's really 8pm EST now that daylight savings time is over
[00:05] <xnox> Ahhhh now it makes sence
[00:06] <DPic> :)
[00:06] <DPic> here's the agenda: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MarketingTeam/Meetings/Minutes/2008-03-26
[00:06] <DPic> it's short but i'm sure well have more to talk about
[00:07] <boredandblogging> i gotta run soon
[00:07] <boredandblogging> so let me mention the gerry carr thing
[00:07] <boredandblogging> we might get a heads up on the 8.04 press release
[00:07] <boredandblogging> minus the official canonical quotes
[00:08] <boredandblogging> so we can pass them out to locos to translate as needed
[00:08] <DPic> awesome
[00:08] <boredandblogging> or stick them in press kits or whatever
[00:08] <DPic> so will we get an email when that happens?
[00:09] <boredandblogging> yeah, I'll email the marketing and loco-contacts lists
[00:09] <boredandblogging> if gerry doesn't do it himself
[00:09] <DPic> great
[00:09] <DPic> do you have any idea when this will happen?
[00:09] <xnox> 23 April 23:59 UTC? =D
[00:10] <boredandblogging> hah
[00:10] <boredandblogging> yeah, I'll start bugging him in a couple of weeks
[00:10] <boredandblogging> but yeah, I want to get it as soon as possible too
[00:11] <boredandblogging> thats all I got
[00:11] <DPic> alright. and since it seems like a couple people are having to leave early, is this time generally bad or is it just today? would it help to have meetings one hour earlier?
[00:11] <boredandblogging> time is fine
[00:11] <DPic> okay
[00:11] <boredandblogging> but
[00:11] <emmajane> an hour earlier would have been great :)
[00:12] <xnox> an hour earlier as well would be better
[00:12] <boredandblogging> yeah, think its tough for people in Europe to make it
[00:12] <DPic> emmajane: today, or for future meetings?
[00:12] <DPic> okay i'll make it an hour earlier
[00:12] <emmajane> 7PM is good for me because it gives me time to get to the gym afterwards :)
[00:12] <xnox> Cool =D
[00:12] <emmajane> and the reminder was great
[00:12] <DPic> and is it okay with everyone that i've made meeting monthly now instead of every two weeks?
[00:12] <emmajane> EST/DST thing did screw me up. I nver think about the difference.
[00:13] <xnox> DPic: 1 a month is plenty? Isn't it?
[00:13] <boredandblogging> should we have meetings before hardy?
[00:13] <DPic> i think so
[00:14] <DPic> hmm maybe a special meeting two weeks from now just because of the Hardy release?
[00:15] <boredandblogging> sure
[00:15] <emmajane> works for me
[00:15] <xnox> fine
[00:15] <DPic> alright then
[00:15] <DPic> now, first thing on the agenda is to talk about fliers
[00:15] <DPic> we have a few here https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MarketingTeam/Materials
[00:16] <DPic> but i would definitely like to see more. any ideas on who else we can contact?
[00:17] <boredandblogging> most of the people who used to do that stuff arent' that active in -marketing anymore
[00:18] <DPic> i sent an email to the loco-contacts list which included a link to that page and we got one person to add their work
[00:18] <DPic> would it be worth contacting the artwork team?
[00:18] <boredandblogging> don't see the old DIY page on the Materials page
[00:19] <xnox> I will try to come with something. Although I'm not great artist =D
[00:19] <boredandblogging> no wait
[00:19] <boredandblogging> its there
[00:19] <DPic> the materials page has all of the work from the DIY page i think
[00:19] <boredandblogging> cool
[00:19] <xnox> no it doesn't https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DIYMarketing?highlight=%28DIY%29
[00:19] <DPic> could someone contact the artwork ream?
[00:20] <DPic> xnox: alright i'll work on copying stuff over
[00:21] <xnox> I'll contact artwork team :P
[00:21] <DPic> xnox: thanks
[00:22] <DPic> is there anything else we should do as far as fliers go?
[00:23] <xnox> 2 weeks before hardy send links to all Loco teams to remind them there is something to use =D
[00:23] <DPic> yeah, i'll be reminded to do that at our next meeting
[00:23] <boredandblogging> i gotta head out, will read the backlog later
[00:23] <DPic> okay thanks for coming
[00:23] <xnox> bye!
[00:24]  * xnox still here though
[00:24] <DPic> i got an email from someone asking if there were any big events planned for the hardy release
[00:24] <DPic> i told them that i didn't know but i'd ask here if there were and if not, who to contact about making arrangements
[00:25]  * xnox is in UK and it seems dead
[00:25] <L1pe> DPic: well there are parties everywhere
[00:26] <DPic> yes, but i'm pretty sure he meant like a BIG event
[00:26]  * johnc4510 sorry late
[00:26]  * xnox most of the LUG's anyway around where I live are dead
[00:27] <DPic> johnc4510: no problem. did you read up on what you missed?
[00:27] <xnox> I've heard of BIG events in China =D
[00:27] <johnc4510> doing that now
[00:27] <xnox> but I'm never gonna get there =(
[00:27] <DPic> johnc4510: okay cool, if you have anything to add, please do
[00:27] <DPic> xnox: well, are there any people who would be able to set up such an event?
[00:28] <xnox> not really
[00:28] <DPic> alright i'll let him know
[00:28] <DPic> my reply is already like a month late :/
[00:29] <L1pe> I think that 50 parties arround the world is a BIG event...
[00:29] <DPic> L1pe: yeah but he's looking for one big event
[00:29] <johnc4510> DPic: we should get the link to the teams as soon as possible for the flyer, so they can start printing and handing them out
[00:30] <DPic> johnc4510: the fliers that exist now talk about hardy as if it's already been released
[00:30] <johnc4510> k
[00:30] <johnc4510> hmm
[00:30] <DPic> i don't think we'll have any to talk about it's upcoming release in time although that would have been nice
[00:32] <DPic> next thing on the agenda is ubuntu demos. I added this a few weeks ago and thinking about it now it doesn't seem like the best idea but my thinking was to just try to get more people to SEE ubuntu but having demos on the streets. It might be better to ask teams to request having a demo at a computer show or something (not sure how they would pull that off). something similar is mentioned under friendly contact here https://wiki.ubuntu.com/GainIndus
[00:33] <xnox> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/GainIndustrySupport ?
[00:33] <DPic> ....?
[00:33] <DPic> i fail to understand your question
[00:33] <xnox> Page does not exists
[00:34] <xnox> the one you send
[00:34] <DPic> okay it works for me but here's the quote, "Everyone should be able to get in touch with companies and just say what you want. For example, you could go to a computer retail store and ask them about supporting Ubuntu, then show off your own computer running it. They'll like the spinning cube :)"
[00:34] <johnc4510> works for me
[00:35] <xnox> DPic: sounds great unless they will think it's hidden camera show ;)
[00:36] <DPic> haha
[00:36] <DPic> well how could we get LoCo teams to do this?
[00:36] <DPic> maybe add it to this page, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HitTheStreets ?
[00:37] <xnox> I think we should do a hidden camera show and put it on youtube
[00:37] <xnox> with something like that
[00:37] <DPic> xnox: that's actually a great idea
[00:37] <xnox> a) loco's will see it
[00:37] <xnox> b) people will see
[00:37] <xnox> c) employees will see it as well
[00:37] <DPic> c) the internets will see it!
[00:37] <DPic> oh.
[00:37] <DPic> :P
[00:38] <xnox> DPic: internerds =D
[00:38] <DPic> we would be able to catch a lot of people's reactions on camera
[00:39] <DPic> it could make for a good promotional video
[00:39] <DPic> which Ubuntu and free software in general needs more of
[00:39] <xnox> I personally like the firefoxflicks.com idea
[00:40] <xnox> it's simple yet attractive
[00:40] <L1pe> I don't think that's a good idea...
[00:40] <DPic> L1pe: why not?
[00:41] <L1pe> well, maybe only in the "first world". because in many many countries people walking in the streents doesn't even have computers...
[00:41] <xnox> Good point
[00:41] <DPic> L1pe: well with that we'd be targeting the "first world" but i think it's a good idea for that
[00:42] <L1pe> and in my opinion you just can't make somebody in the street to change there OSes
[00:42] <DPic> that is true but i think some promotional videos could help a lot if they served to educate consumers
[00:43] <L1pe> sure
[00:43] <xnox> "Regular mum stripping DRM while cooking breakfast?" =D from ubuntuforums i think
[00:43] <DPic> hah
[00:44] <DPic> last on the agenda is team jobs
[00:44] <xnox> "Ubuntu - Linux for human beings; Unable your Medibuntu repository =D"
[00:44] <L1pe> maybe some crazzy promotional videos, (I really like that kind of marketing)
[00:44] <DPic> what kind of "crazzy" do you mean?
[00:45] <xnox> Walk into dell store and boot all computer
[00:45] <xnox> s into ubuntu live cd
[00:45] <xnox> catch on camera reaction of people =D
[00:45] <xnox> Oh dell stores are shut down aren't they
[00:45] <DPic> yeah, but it'd be hard to pull off
[00:46] <L1pe> like 100 loco members runing in the streets of dubai with live cds :)
[00:46] <xnox> ROLF
[00:46] <DPic> rolling on laughing floor?
[00:47]  * xnox I knew I never knew chatspeak
[00:47] <xnox> it's RLOF isn't it?
[00:48] <xnox> but yeah close enough =D
[00:48]  * xnox is Russian
[00:48] <DPic> xnox: it's ROFL --> rolling on the floor laughing :)
[00:48] <xnox> ahhh that's the one
[00:49] <DPic> haha anyways, team jobs. is anyone here interested in being the meeting manager? if not i'll email the list about it
[00:49] <DPic> anyone?
[00:49] <DPic> going once
[00:50] <DPic> going twice
[00:50] <DPic> going
[00:50] <DPic> going
[00:50] <DPic> gone
[00:50] <xnox> close but no cigar
[00:50] <L1pe> whats the job spec?
[00:51] <DPic> take meetimg minutes, contact the fridge to let them know about upcoming meetings, update the claendar and wiki (for meetings)
[00:52] <L1pe> I can do that if you want
[00:52] <DPic> it's not a lot of work, it's just a little but you have to do at regular intarvals
[00:52] <DPic> L1pe, that would be great
[00:52] <DPic> can i talk to you after the meeting about what to do?
[00:53] <L1pe> ok
[00:53] <DPic> great
[00:54] <DPic> are there any other jobs that this team needs?
[00:54] <DPic> i think a person or two to act as a team contact would be good
[00:54] <DPic> so people can contact them instead of the list for certain things
[00:56] <DPic> alright, well is there anything to add before we finish?
[00:57]  * xnox "Hakuna Matata"
[00:57] <DPic> +1
[00:58] <DPic> alright, i guess that's it
[00:58] <DPic> Meeting adjourned.
[00:58] <xnox> see ya
[00:58] <L1pe> not the most popular meeting ever :)
[02:46] <userone> eh
[05:05] <pleaseandthankyo> can i install ubuntu edubun xunbu kubuntu at the same time?
[05:59] <pleaseandthankyo> ok installed xubuntu and and goubuntu  on top of edubuntu where are they now? and how do i load them?
[06:31] <calc> hi
[06:39] <evand> good evening calc
[06:39] <ogra_cmpc> evening ? tsk...
[06:40] <nixternal> morning
[06:40] <ogra_cmpc> .oO(mummble,mumble ....middleofthenigth.... mumble)
[06:40] <nixternal> 01:40 Chicago Standard Time :)
[06:40] <evand> mumble mumble almost 3am mumble :)
[06:40] <ogra_cmpc> 7:40 CEST
[06:41] <ogra_cmpc> *yawn*
[06:41] <evand> not sure which I'd dislike more
[06:41] <ogra_cmpc> ihad3amones ... and i use to go to bed around 4am anyway ... so that was perfect
[06:41] <ogra_cmpc> hmm
[06:42] <ogra_cmpc> spacebar morning-weakness
[06:42] <calc> its only 1:42am here
[06:42] <calc> its still early ;-)
[06:42] <nixternal> or late
[06:42]  * calc is glad his mother in law watches his son on meeting nights
[06:43]  * nixternal is glad his mother-in-law is no where near him on any night
[06:43] <calc> he seems to think 6:30am is a good time to wake up
[06:43] <nixternal> heh
[06:43] <calc> so 3am-6:30am would really suck for sleep
[06:44] <calc> btw the OOo graph is finally pretty :)
[06:44] <calc> only 10 new bugs
[06:46] <bryyce> heya guys
[06:47] <calc> ArneGoetje: thanks for the bug testing :)
[06:47]  * asac waves
[06:47] <asac> since when does the meeting start at 0630 UTC?
[06:48] <asac> :-P
[06:48] <ogra_cmpc> heh
[06:48] <james_w> morning all
[06:48]  * ogra_cmpc waves
[06:49] <calc> asac: oh i thought it ended at 0700 UTC ;-)
[06:49] <asac> ogra_cmpc: you already yawmed ... no need to wave ;)
[06:49] <ogra_cmpc> ... andtriestogetridofthe sesame seedunder thespacebargrrr
[06:49] <ogra_cmpc> ah, better
[06:50] <asac> what are you doing ogra_cmpc ;) ... hopefully you are at least properly dressed :)
[06:50] <ogra_cmpc> haha
[06:51] <ogra_cmpc> not at that time of day, no ... but i wont go into details :)
[06:51] <asac> lol
[06:53] <nixternal> thank goodness :p
[06:53] <bryyce> asac, did you get many agenda items for the meeting?  I suppose there are plenty of milestone bugs we can talk about.
[06:54] <asac> bryyce: no additions, no.
[06:55] <ArneGoetje> calc: welcome. took me a few seconds. :)
[06:56] <calc> ArneGoetje: i'll have to get you to show me how to do that kind of thing on my laptop at UDS, thanks for taking care of it for me though :)
[06:56] <ArneGoetje> calc: sure. no problem.
[06:57] <asac> any trick to get a hardy blocker list from launchpad _with_ the assignee in the list?
[06:57] <bryyce> not afaik
[06:57] <asac> i remeber that we had such lists in the past ... but i cant get it by just using advanced search
[06:57] <bryyce> getting high/crit milestones are pretty easy - http://tinyurl.com/2vtt6u
[06:58] <slangasek> asac: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+milestone/ubuntu-8.04
[06:58] <asac> slangasek: thanks
[06:58] <slangasek> trade-off is that you can't hide the fix-released bugs :)
[06:58] <asac> slangasek: how comes that that list is about 208 bugs, while the hardy tagged list is just 138?
[06:58] <asac> oh
[06:59] <asac> i see
[06:59] <bryyce> I've been browsing through the high priority milestones, and noted a few that looked relevant to us...  http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/61106/
[07:00] <asac> the network-manager issues should to be fixed on a branch. if anyone still experiences issues connecting with NM, please talk to me
[07:00] <asac> ok ... maybe start?
[07:01] <bryyce> yep
[07:01] <asac> slangasek: for beta wrap-up: are there are any _new_ issues that came up after beta?
[07:01] <slangasek> oh, sure, there were the regressions that people uploaded to the archive the day after the beta freeze ended :)
[07:02] <asac> haha
[07:03] <slangasek> if people don't know what I'm talking about - hal/network-manager started giving problems with wireless, and language packs started having errors with overlapping files, and then Germany went on a four-day weekend ;)
[07:03] <calc> slangasek: i thought that was all of europe
[07:03] <ogra_cmpc> calc, not all of us
[07:04] <TheMuso> calc: Australia also.
[07:04] <ogra_cmpc> but most
[07:04] <bryyce> sure made for a quiet couple of days for us in usa ;-)
[07:04] <asac> i worked the whole weekend :) ... though on security backports
[07:04] <slangasek> so thankfully, I think everyone's out of four-day weekends between now and release, so I'm optimistic that we won't have any repeats of /that/...
[07:04]  * ogra_cmpc hacked on classmate the whole time
[07:04] <TheMuso> ,e actually got away from the computer.
[07:04]  * TheMuso actually got away from the computer.
[07:04] <calc> yummy bug 159893 sounds like it would fix my biggest gripe with compiz and its targeted for hardy
[07:04] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 159893 in compiz "Windows only snap to outside edges" [Wishlist,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/159893
[07:04] <bryyce> TheMuso: heresy!
[07:05] <slangasek> as for problems with the beta itself, things look pretty good.  Still waiting for Xubuntu to give me the thumbs-up for a set of alternate CDs to release as a beta for them, but otherwise we're on the final stretch to release now
[07:07] <bryyce> so it looks like we have until April 10th, Final Freeze, and then RC on the 17th and final release a week after that on the 24th.
[07:07] <slangasek> correct
[07:08]  * ArneGoetje still needs to check some scim and fonts issues... :(
[07:08] <slangasek> please use this time wisely to work on those milestoned bugs - if anyone's worried about running out, let me know, and if anyone's worried that they have too many assigned, let me know that too
[07:08] <bryyce> ArneGoetje, do you want to give a status on that?
[07:08] <doko> about bug #174002, you probably can avoid the reboot question if using noifiers to ask for a reboot of the system, but at least for server, the update notifiers are not installed by default
[07:08] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 174002 in glibc "asks termnal question on dapper->hardy upgrade" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/174002
[07:08] <calc> hmm final freeze is the day after i fly off to prague
[07:09] <slangasek> you're going to prague a month early?
[07:09] <doko> calc: so it's one day earlier for you =)
[07:09] <calc> slangasek: yea GoOOCon
[07:09] <calc> doko: yea
[07:09] <slangasek> ah
[07:09] <calc> slangasek: doko as well but on friday (i think)
[07:09] <ogra_cmpc> doko, show a debconf note if there is no DISPLAY set
[07:09] <ArneGoetje> bryyce: I don't have an overview right now, as those bugs seem to be individual problems, some of them on KDE... so I would need to replicate them first
[07:10] <ogra_cmpc> or just echo to the console
[07:10] <slangasek> calc: ohwell, that gives you extra padding so that OOo can be uploaded /and built/ before the freeze then :-)
[07:10] <doko> ogra_cmpc: it is shown now, but only for the case when debconf is installed
[07:10] <calc> slangasek: heh yea
[07:10] <ogra_cmpc> doko, if [ -z "$DISPLAY" ];then echo "please reboot" fi
[07:11] <ogra_cmpc> :)
[07:11] <doko> calc: I'd like to to an OOo -l10n language export test for -4. Could you make a preliminary -4 build available somewhere?
[07:12] <calc> doko: ok, just the same as -3 but with some language stuff done differently?
[07:12] <calc> doko: i am uploading 2.4.0-1ubuntu1 later this week
[07:12] <calc> doko: probably tomorrow or so, whenever the official announcement goes out
[07:13] <doko> calc: fine, just tell me where I can grab it before your upload
[07:13] <calc> doko: ok, do you need just the orig/diff/dsc or the debs as well?
[07:14] <bryyce> slangasek: are there particular bugs you've noticed as important, that aren't getting sufficient attention or progress on them so far?
[07:15] <doko> calc: source only
[07:15] <calc> doko: ok
[07:15] <asac> ok, i think i assigned all unassigned ffox and network manager blocker bugs now.
[07:15] <asac> (to me)
[07:16] <slangasek> bryyce: I haven't noticed that yet, no; with less than a week since beta and Easter weekend intervening, there's insufficient data yet,  but I'll certainly be tagging people if I think it's necessary
[07:16] <bryyce> slangasek: ok well always good news that the sky is not falling ;-)
[07:16] <asac> yes. i wondered why i haven't received the expected bug flood yet, but maybe its really because of easter
 it's because no one could connect to the Internet to send their bugs :-)
[07:17] <james_w> slangasek: you can poke me about odds and ends as I don't have an area of my own yet.
[07:17] <ogra_cmpc> i would expect more testers because of that, not less
[07:17]  * bryyce snorts
[07:17] <asac> slangasek: hehe :)
[07:17] <asac> yeah. thats another point
[07:17] <slangasek> james_w: sounds great, thanks :)
[07:17] <bryyce> yes, I've been noticing mutterings about wireless issues in some xorg bug reports lately.
[07:18] <bryyce> "Can you ssh in and attach gdb to Xorg to see why it's crashed?"  "Nope, wireless is broke."  ;-)
[07:18] <slangasek> fwiw, we *should* have those wireless regressions sorted in the archive now
[07:19] <ogra_cmpc> asac, btw, heise held back the beta announcement until yesterday (to put it in the news aside with the fedora one)
[07:19] <slangasek> it took a little longer than it ought to have, mainly because there were two overlapping regressions in two different packages
[07:19] <bryyce> excellent, yeah sounds like the issues are already past
[07:19] <ArneGoetje> also for IPW2200?
[07:19] <asac> ogra_cmpc: which ubuntu beta?
[07:19] <ogra_cmpc> yup
[07:19] <slangasek> but I expect we'll still have to handhold a few users through getting their wireless back up, for a few more days
[07:19] <asac> ArneGoetje: ipw2200 hidden ssid is fixed on my branch ... otherwise it should work
[07:20] <asac> ArneGoetje: testing appreciated
[07:20] <ArneGoetje> asac: will do tonight
[07:21] <bryyce> for Xorg, things seem to be pretty stable - the usual level of issues.  Mostly we're catching secondary and tertiary side effects from various fixes that went in around beta
[07:22] <bryyce> I learned today that the compiz folks have blacklisted all ATI laptops, which is disappointing, but looks like it was the right call.  A lot of users are going to complain about it though.
[07:23] <asac> anyone can confirm that dpkg-buildpackage -S -si is broken (it always includes the orig.tar.gz in changes for me)
[07:23] <asac> well dpkg-genchanges that is
[07:24] <asac> (i had to create the changes in a gutsy chroot for the firefox security update)
[07:24] <TheMuso> asac: I never use -si, I just use dpkg-buildpackage -S and no orig is included.
[07:25] <asac> it still includes the orig for me
[07:25] <asac> $ dpkg-genchanges -S -si
[07:25] <asac> dpkg-genchanges: including full source code in upload
[07:25] <asac> same without -si
[07:25] <asac> whats going on :(
[07:25] <slangasek> what's your version number?
[07:25] <doko> asac: did you want to look at the Blackdown java1.4 packages, or can we remove them from the distro now?
[07:26] <asac> 2.0.0.13+0nobinonly-0ubuntu0.7.4
[07:26] <slangasek> (does that mean the meeting's over, if we're talking about dpkg-genchanges commandline options?)
[07:26] <asac> in the past it just auto did that for -1
[07:26] <asac> (like in debian)
[07:26] <asac> slangasek: well ... not sure. if its broken its certainly a blocker ;)
[07:26] <slangasek> maybe the heuristic has been changed to <= -1
[07:26] <slangasek> heh
[07:26] <asac> slangasek: anyway ... it should honour the -si
[07:27] <asac> agreed?
[07:27] <slangasek> well, yes :)
[07:27] <asac> should happen for all -0ubuntuX things if its really <= -1 now
[07:29] <asac> ill test and file a bug. anything else?
[07:30] <slangasek> asac: is ubufox getting up to the top of your list yet?  It would be nice to have confirmation that java now works by default for 64-bit users
[07:30] <asac> slangasek: yes. I will push it so it gets done by end of this week for sure.
[07:30] <slangasek> ok
[07:30] <doko> it should work for everything but LiveConnect
[07:30] <asac> but the comments in bug looked good (except the wizard)
[07:31] <slangasek> doko: "by default" -> ubufox still doesn't know to install icedtea-gcjwebplugin
[07:31] <asac> why is that a problem?
[07:31] <asac> is there no transitional package?
[07:31] <slangasek> so we don't really get full user testing right now :)
[07:31] <slangasek> asac: there is not, no
[07:32] <asac> why not? (sorry if i miss the obvious)
[07:32] <slangasek> asac: if there were a transitional package, users would get two options in the plugin list where they should get one...?
[07:32] <asac> they will only get the package that had the Npp- headers in their control when ubufox database was updated the last time
[07:32] <doko> well, I can build an empty package from the icedtea-gcjwebplugin source
[07:32] <asac> so for now it would work
[07:32] <asac> and once i run the datbase batch it would automatically suggest -gcjwebplugin
[07:33] <asac> instead of the old one
[07:33] <asac> (given that the Npp- headers are dropped from the transitional package control)
[07:33] <slangasek> doko: an easy push through NEW from my POV if you want to do that
[07:33] <asac> doko: empty? without transition?
[07:33] <slangasek> empty -> dummy -> transition
[07:33] <asac> ok
[07:34] <asac> doko: please do that. i think users that installed the icedtea plugin want to be auto upgraded anyway
[07:34] <doko> ok, will do
[07:34] <asac> great
[07:34] <slangasek> doko: have you gotten an answer to your inittab question yet?
[07:35] <doko> slangasek: no, and not that high priority. I'll have to look later
[07:35] <slangasek> I'm interested in knowing the answer, since I can't figure it out myself, guess it needs picking Scott's brain
[07:37] <ogra_cmpc> fedora will surely soon have a fix now that they switched to upstart :P
[07:38] <asac> ok, i guess meeting is over ;)
[07:38] <slangasek> ok, thanks all :)
[07:39] <ogra_cmpc> thanks
[07:39]  * asac goes back to work
[07:39] <asac> thanks
[07:39] <bryyce> thanks
[07:39] <TheMuso> thanks all
[07:39] <ArneGoetje> thanks
[07:39] <TheMuso> minutes will be out tomorrow my time.
[07:39] <calc> goodnight
[07:41] <james_w> thanks all
[07:44] <evand> thanks
[12:16] <stgraber> ok, so we have RichEd and ogra_cmpcng :) anyone else ?
[12:16] <ogra_cmpcng> unlikely :)
[12:16] <ogra_cmpcng> highvoltage, ?
[12:16] <ogra_cmpcng> juliux, ?
[12:16] <ogra_cmpcng> anyone ?
[12:16] <RichEd> i've got a packed day with bad internet
[12:16] <RichEd> i'll lurk and respond if pinged by name
[12:16] <ogra_cmpcng> i'm fiddling with the next gen classmate atm
[12:16] <juliux> ogra_cmpc, i am half here
[12:17]  * juliux is fighting with a lotus notes and domino server
[12:17] <ogra_cmpcng> and i dont have anything to report ... four days of easter and all remaining workdays went into classmate
[12:17] <ogra_cmpcng> beta was good though
[12:19] <ogra_cmpcng> there were three slightly critical bugs discovered in beta, one is moodle (not fixed yet), one in ltsp (amd64 dhcpd.conf handling (there is a fix on teh bug)) and italc not being installable in a netinstall (fixed by stephane, sorry for not having it uploaded yet)
[12:20] <ogra_cmpcng> beyond that we have two categories in g-a-i that i have to remove since they are empty
[12:20] <ogra_cmpcng> and there is one upstream ldm security bug that needs fixing
[12:21] <ogra_cmpcng> thats about it from my side
[12:21] <ogra_cmpcng> any questions anyone ?
[12:22] <stgraber> sounds good and not too hard to fix for RC
[12:22] <ogra_cmpcng> oh, i forgot, laser has uploaded a new and fixed squeak
[12:22] <ogra_cmpcng> and apparently he builds the squeak vm for all arches so you can have it on ppc and amd64 as well
[12:23] <ogra_cmpcng> i will have to test how good it behaves on the classmate, since i suspect it will be used a lot
[12:23] <stgraber> how better is the new classmate ? do you have L2 cache on this one ? :)
[12:23] <ogra_cmpcng> its a typical OLPC app so i assume kids will want it on the classmate
[12:23] <ogra_cmpcng> nope
[12:23] <ogra_cmpcng> and the device i have here is a total fake :)
[12:23] <stgraber> but real HDD right ?
[12:24] <stgraber> ok :)
[12:24] <ogra_cmpcng> 512M and 30G HDD
[12:24] <ogra_cmpcng> both wont be the default afaik
[12:24] <ogra_cmpcng> but that might still change depending on prices ... the device i have here isnt supposed to come out before Q3 or so
[12:25] <ogra_cmpcng> it has a 9" screen and a right shift key though :)
[12:25] <ogra_cmpcng> and a neat case that looks a bit more modern
[12:25] <stgraber> oh, so you'll be making less typing mistake now :)
[12:26] <ogra_cmpcng> not really, the keys are different i have to get used to it
[12:26] <stgraber> have you had a chance to run italc on one of the "old" classmates, I'd be interested by memory usage on those
[12:26] <ogra_cmpcng> it should be by default in the latest images ... i didnt do a fresh install yet on an old one
[12:27] <stgraber> ok
[12:27] <ogra_cmpcng> hrm
[12:27] <ogra_cmpcng> at least its supposed to be in the default install
[12:27] <ogra_cmpcng> its not here on the ng classmate
[12:28] <stgraber> it seems to eat 14MB on my lappy (64bit) but I have a real highres screen (1680x1050) so might be a lot less on the cmpc
[12:28] <ogra_cmpcng> 14M is a lot
[12:29] <ogra_cmpcng> at least for a classmate
[12:29] <stgraber> yes, but that's on 64bit with 1680x1050, I'd expect x11vnc to eat a lot less on a 32bit 800x480 screen
[12:29] <ogra_cmpcng> is it x11vnc ? i thought it uses its own code
[12:29] <stgraber> it's its own code but the VNC part is 90% based on x11vnc
[12:29] <ogra_cmpcng> ah
[12:30] <ogra_cmpcng> so just stolen from there
[12:31] <stgraber> it forks into 2 process one doing the iTalc actions (locking screen, allowing demo mode, ...) and the other running x11vnc
[12:32] <ogra_cmpcng> it eats 6.88M reserved ram here
[12:32] <ogra_cmpcng> not to bad
[12:32] <stgraber> ok, so seems to be directly related to the screen resolution
[12:32] <ogra_cmpcng> (running idle)
[12:33] <ogra_cmpcng> ok ... so wrt meeting i'm done so far ... RichEd, anything to add ? management/community ?
[12:33] <stgraber> btw, I'll soon have the avahi scripts ready to replace ica-launcher and italc-launcher. I don't think we'll be able to incldue those in the package for Hardy
[12:33] <stgraber> so where is the best place to upload them ?
[12:33] <ogra_cmpcng> yeah, sadly
[12:33] <ogra_cmpcng> PPA ?
[12:34] <ogra_cmpcng> so hardy users can pull them inofficially
[12:34] <RichEd> ogra_cmpc: not from my side today
[12:34] <stgraber> I'm not sure generating an entire new package is necessary as it's just the two launcher scripts that need to be replaced
[12:34] <RichEd> thanks for managing the mini-meeting
[12:34] <ogra_cmpcng> :)
[12:34] <ogra_cmpcng> having fun with the new keyboard :)
[12:36] <ogra_cmpcng> RichEd, btw, suspend/hibernate works on the next gen ... i have one issue with the backlight being off on resume but thats fixable (and works if you hit the brightness key once)
[12:36] <RichEd> great
[12:36] <stgraber> hmm, now that I'm having a look at it, my new scripts will required avahi-tools and probably python-avahi so uploading a package to the PPA makes sense so I can easily add the new depends
[12:36] <RichEd> what's better about the keyboard ?
[12:37] <ogra_cmpcng> right shift key
[12:37] <stgraber> the other way would have been a wiki page with the two scripts attached
[12:37] <ogra_cmpcng> smaller higher keys
[12:37] <RichEd> and can you send a mini status email to me about any issues we need to urgently fix (for the IDF launch)
[12:37] <ogra_cmpcng> so the center point of the keys is further apart
[12:38] <RichEd> is that better for bigger fingers ?
[12:38]  * RichEd also missed the right shift
[12:38] <RichEd> annoying at times
[12:38] <ogra_cmpcng> RichEd, its all fixed, i uploaded the fixed package for the installer this morning, it just takes its hours to get into the archive before i can go on
[12:38] <RichEd> so i can tell mr k that we can satisfy them
[12:38] <RichEd> ?
[12:38] <ogra_cmpcng> i saw some video lockups though
[12:39] <ogra_cmpcng> not sure what that is yet, but its nothing that happens constantly and we can blame the unreleased status of the image for now
[12:39] <RichEd> okay ... not critical though for now ... it is prerelease
[12:39] <ogra_cmpcng> in any case its installable with my next image build
[12:39] <RichEd> tell them to file a bug report if and when it happens
[12:39] <ogra_cmpcng> and the webcam works fine :)
[12:40] <RichEd> great ... they can chat to you live while you work ;)
[12:40] <ogra_cmpcng> well, i know when it happens .... i just dont know why yet and why it isnt realiably reproducable
[12:41] <ogra_cmpcng> RichEd, the ekiga videophone works out oif the box :)
[12:46]  * highvoltage is here
[12:46] <highvoltage> sorry, was in shower, somehow thought there was a late meeting
[12:46] <highvoltage> ogra_cmpcng: how is NG?
[12:47] <highvoltage> ogra_cmpcng: can you take a pic of the new clasmate dummy you have?
[12:47] <ogra_cmpcng> not sure i'm allowed to
[12:47] <ogra_cmpcng> its not public yet
[12:48] <highvoltage> ah ok.
[12:48] <ogra_cmpcng> oh, i missed to finish the meeting ...
[12:48] <highvoltage> nice that it has lots of RAM at least. is the 30GB hard disk also flash? or magnetic platters?
[12:49] <ogra_cmpcng> highvoltage, thats a real HD and it wont have the amount of ram in the released variant by default i think
[12:49] <ogra_cmpcng> anyway
[12:49] <ogra_cmpcng> need to close the meeting and do more tests
[12:49] <ogra_cmpcng> going once
[12:49] <ogra_cmpcng> twice ...
[12:49] <ogra_cmpcng> adjourned ... thanks everyone
[13:17] <Laney> @schedule london
[13:17] <ubotu> Schedule for Europe/London: 26 Mar 19:00: Xubuntu | 26 Mar 21:00: Server Team | 28 Mar 04:00: MOTU | 02 Apr 22:00: Server Team | 09 Apr 22:00: Server Team | 16 Apr 22:00: Server Team
[15:37]  * dtrask is away: Lunch time...leave a msg
[15:59]  * pedro_ waves
[15:59] <ogasawara> hi all
[15:59] <pedro_> hello ogasawara
[15:59] <pedro_> hey Iulian
[16:00] <heno> hey all!
[16:00]  * Iulian waves
[16:00]  * stgraber waves
[16:00] <stgraber> nand: ping
[16:00] <pedro_> hi heno
[16:01] <nand> hi!
[16:02] <heno> #startmeeting
[16:02] <MootBot> Meeting started at 17:02. The chair is heno.
[16:02] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[16:02] <heno> agenda: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/Meetings
[16:02] <heno> sorry for the late announcement!
[16:02] <pedro_> i'm loving the meeting schedule posted at the wiki page
[16:02] <pedro_> thanks for it ;-)
[16:03] <heno> yeah, I thought that might be useful :)
[16:03] <heno> (for when I make agendas very late ;-D )
[16:03] <Iulian> Actually it is ;)
[16:04] <heno> [TOPIC] QA-Website frontpage (nand and stgraber)
[16:04] <MootBot> New Topic:  QA-Website frontpage (nand and stgraber)
[16:04]  * heno still needs to reply to some of nand's emails about brainstorm
[16:05] <stgraber> that's something we have been discussing a bit with nand, qa.ubuntu.com looks really empty and useless as it's now and we thought we would really need to improve it
[16:05] <nand> yep!
[16:05] <heno> nand: I've not forgotten, it's just queed up ...
[16:05] <nand> heno: I guessed so
[16:05] <stgraber> so first thing, as this page will be linked from the QA bar you have at the top of all our websites, we'll need a name for it
[16:06] <stgraber> this page will act as a summary of all the other QA related websites (ISO tracker, Brainstorm, QA Blog, links to Hug days, ...)
[16:06] <heno> 'Home' ?
[16:06] <heno> does drupal have a blog plugin, btw?
[16:06] <stgraber> the problem I see with 'Home' is that people will expect to be brought back to the main page of the website they currently are on
[16:07] <stgraber> heno: yes, we are testing it on http://qablog.stgraber.org
[16:07] <heno> ooo, pretty
[16:07] <nand> Ideally there should be some feedback on Ubuntu dev on this blog
[16:07] <liw> oops, I forgot to /join the right channel
[16:08] <heno> nand: agreed
[16:08] <nand> to give some update to a good portion of users whose only portal to Ubuntu is brainstorm
[16:08] <heno> 'QA Home'?
[16:08] <liw> (if someone wants to paste me the backlog for this meeting, I'd be happy to catch up)
[16:08] <stgraber> liw: http://paste.stgraber.org/1989
[16:08] <liw> thanks
[16:09] <pedro_> I've already flood him by privmsg hehe
[16:09] <stgraber> 'QA Home' sounds better
[16:09] <liw> I have three copies of the backlog now, thanks everyone
[16:10] <stgraber> any other idea ?
[16:10] <heno> we should also consider setting up reports.qa.u.c or similar for bug lists, weather report, etc
[16:10] <stgraber> heno: that's my idea with qa.ubuntu.com
[16:10] <stgraber> let me copy/paste the planned content
[16:10] <stgraber>  - Summary tab (developer weather report, news from the blog, top-10 from Brainstorm, links to different tracker (iso, mozilla, ...))
[16:10] <stgraber>  - Testing tracker tab (status for ongoing testing, summary of user's subscriptions)
[16:10] <stgraber>  - Brainstorm tab (user's favourite ideas, top-10 most recent ideas, top-10 from frontpage)
[16:10] <stgraber>  - Resource tab (links to Wiki, LP, Hug days, Ubuntuwire, ...)
[16:10] <heno> ogasawara: could the weather report live on reports.qa.u.c/releasestatus ? or so
[16:11] <ogasawara> heno: I believe so - I actually have it at http://people.ubuntu.com/~ogasawara/weatherreport.html currently
[16:11] <stgraber> the default tab being the Summary which would have some kind of block base UI showing content from the various QA resources
[16:11] <heno> ogasawara: yeah, thanks for getting that back up!
[16:13] <stgraber> any other idea of what we should show on qa.ubuntu.com ?
[16:13] <nand> Ideally too, it should be noob-proof
[16:13] <davmor2> nand: :)
[16:14] <nand> meaning, a new user could actually learn things here about the processes
[16:14] <nand> and how to get involed
[16:14] <nand> ;)
[16:14] <nand> I see that page as a portal for noob to enter and discover Ubuntu dev
[16:14] <stgraber> we don't want our users to be sent to the ISO Tracker with no idea of what it's and how to use it, so we should disply the appropriate wiki link in the various tabs
[16:15] <heno> sort of a 'How can you help? layout
[16:15] <davmor2> pictures pictures everywhere.  It's easier to understand something when you can see it.
[16:15] <nand> davmor2: exactly
[16:15] <nand> You all remember I guess when you started contributing: The hardest part is to actually start
[16:16] <heno> least complex at the top: filing bugs, running unstable milestones, triage, structured testing
[16:16] <heno> getting increasing complicated
[16:16] <nand> And it would be good to take this opportunity (high popularity of brainstorm) to recruit new contributors!
[16:16] <davmor2> Wiki updates will be on going adding images where appropriate and hopefully simplifying where possible it's all in hand honest
[16:16] <nand> boss around :)
[16:17] <heno> shall we just do some layour mock-ups on a wiki page?
[16:17] <stgraber> good idea
[16:18] <stgraber> would be great to have different views of how this website will look like so we can discuss it a bit more at Prague
[16:18] <davmor2> heno: yes it'll be best then vote on it next meeting
[16:18] <stgraber> (assuming you guys will be at FOSSCamp)
[16:18] <heno> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/MainSiteHomePageScratch say
[16:18] <davmor2> stgraber: :(
[16:19]  * heno will be there
[16:19]  * nand too
[16:20] <davmor2> heno: page sounds good :)
[16:20] <heno> sounds like a plan
[16:20] <heno> [TOPIC] RC and final testing preparations
[16:20] <MootBot> New Topic:  RC and final testing preparations
[16:21] <heno> our team efforts on final release testing could do with some more structure
[16:21] <heno> -- an action item for me basically
[16:22] <heno> Several people have already stepped up to take ownership of various parts of it
[16:22] <heno> Thanks!
[16:22] <heno> davmor2: will be responsible for Windows-based testing
[16:23] <heno> liw will run a series of upgrade tests and netboot
[16:24] <heno> pedro_ will keep https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/ISO/FixValidation updated and track that
[16:25] <heno> I may still ping other team members and ask for help on bits of this
[16:25] <stgraber> I'll do LTSP and some other weird Alternate testing (manual + double encrypted LVM that sort of things)
[16:25]  * dtrask-away is away: I'm back!
[16:25]  * dtrask-away is back.
[16:25] <heno> I should write an overview of who'se doing what
[16:25] <heno> stgraber: excellent, thanks
[16:25] <davmor2> I'll move on to *buntu's once I get the windows stuff out the road.
[16:26] <ogasawara> heno: that would be good.  then we can sign up for responsibilities that aren't yet assigned
[16:26] <heno> yep
[16:26] <stgraber> heno: hmm, we should have that overview with user's subscription if they update them accordingly
[16:26] <davmor2> heno: with the RC are we going for full coverage at least once?
[16:26] <heno> ogasawara: I'll ask for some of your tracking page expertise as well :)
[16:27] <heno> davmor2: ideally more than single coverage
[16:27] <heno> stgraber: I mean a bit more general tasks
[16:28] <davmor2> I did say at least once :)
[16:28] <heno> thinks like keeping track of the fix verification isn't a test case
[16:28] <davmor2> stgraber: I updated mine as much as possible
[16:28] <stgraber> heno: right
[16:29] <heno> davmor2: indeed, you're right -- more than one tester and likely more than one iteration too
[16:29] <heno> I've been wondering if we should remove the updates cases from the tracker
[16:30] <davmor2> heno: what would also be useful would be a way to identify the least tested product so when general jobs are done the least tested can be nailed
[16:30] <heno> they way liw and mvo tests updates doesn't really fit with that
[16:30] <heno> thoughts?
[16:30] <liw> hmm
[16:31] <heno> also, davmor2 had requested feedback on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/Backing_Up
[16:31] <liw> I like the approach of having a list of tasks to be performed and being to click "pass" or "fail" for each
[16:31] <liw> even for upgrade testing
[16:31] <heno> ref http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker/build/upgrade/all
[16:32] <heno> liw does that fit the tests you plan to do?
[16:32] <heno> or should the cases be adjusted?
[16:32] <stgraber> I'm not sure if that was mvo or something else but someone asked for "Upgrade (cd-rom)" to be added to the Upgrade testcases
[16:32] <stgraber> so we'll have : Upgrade (internet) and Upgrade (cd-rom) instead of a single Upgrade testcase
[16:32] <heno> yep and we need Dapper->Hardy cases too
[16:33] <liw> heno, I think it's fine, at least currently; I assume that if I come up with improvements, they'll be easy to do
[16:33] <heno> (ok, so forget my first suggestion; let's look at ways of modifying the cases)
[16:34] <stgraber> so we currently have upgrade for : edubuntu, kubuntu, ubuntu, ubuntu server and xubuntu
[16:34] <stgraber> any other to add ?
[16:34] <heno> liw: there are no dapper upgrade tests listed for example
[16:34] <heno> do we still want Edubuntu as a separate case?
[16:34] <liw> heno, yeah, that's true; I'll make a list of all the scenarios I want to test, and make checklists for how to test each one
[16:35] <heno> liw: thanks
[16:35] <stgraber> heno: it's : current edubuntu -> ubuntu edu add-on
[16:35] <stgraber> heno: so we'll drop edubuntu with Intrepid
[16:35] <liw> heno, and offer them up for discussion on #ubuntu-testing (putting/keeping them on the wiki, obviously)
[16:35] <heno> ok, cool
[16:36] <heno> FYI: liw is setting up some massively package-overloaded install images to run upgrade from
[16:36] <heno> so it's more than just install+upgrade
[16:37] <heno> most packages and flavours are covered in a single upgrade test really
[16:38] <stgraber> my initial plan was to update the testcases for RC tonight as I'll be away next week. With the problems I had with my Dapper VM I'll likely do the sync only tomorrow evening
[16:38] <stgraber> so please tell me what you want changed by then
[16:38] <liw> stgraber, ack
[16:38] <heno> stgraber: great, thanks. We'll do that
[16:39] <davmor2> I'll probably poach the screenshots from here http://www.partimage.org/Screenshots rather than create new ones for the backup page
[16:39] <heno> so I'll take the action of setting up an overview page, and we'll take it from there
[16:40] <heno> [TOPIC] Beta bugs impact
[16:40] <MootBot> New Topic:  Beta bugs impact
[16:40] <heno> I just wanted to hear what the impact of the release has been. Doesn't look too bad AFAICS
[16:40] <heno> pedro_, ogasawara?
[16:40] <pedro_> yep it's looking good on the desktop side
[16:41] <pedro_> we indeed have more bugs which is good
[16:41] <ogasawara> same here, haven't noticed anything major
[16:41] <pedro_> but there's nothing we don't know already and the other ones are low impact (features, etc)
[16:41] <heno> pedro_: :)
[16:41] <davmor2> goodo :)
[16:41] <pedro_> so yeah everything looking pretty good
[16:42] <heno> excellent!
[16:42] <heno> and as usual, we had a bug day yesterday, and will have one tomorrow!
[16:42] <heno> any other items?
[16:42] <pedro_> yes sr! based on GDM and GNOME Screensaver so be there ;-)
[16:43] <pedro_> not from me
[16:43] <heno> and KDM as well I guess
[16:43] <heno> 3
[16:43] <heno> 2
[16:43] <heno> 1
[16:43] <heno> #endmeeting
[16:43] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 17:44.
[16:44] <heno> short and sweet. thanks all!
[16:44] <pedro_> thanks!
[16:46] <Iulian> heno: Nop, it's Konqueror IIRC
[16:46] <Iulian> Oh yes, see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuBugDay/20080327/KDE
[16:47] <heno> Iulian: ok, thanks
[16:48] <pedro_> ah yes it's konqueror, yuriy told me they don't have enough bugs on KDM so he was looking for another package that might help the hardy release
[16:49] <Iulian> Cool
[16:52] <pedro_> time to have something for eat, see you in a while
[16:55] <zoredache> what are the 4 truths that come before 'ask the simple questions first'?
[17:30] <Bobi> \msg NickServ Bobi
[17:38] <emgent> @schedule rome
[17:38] <ubotu> Schedule for Europe/Rome: 26 Mar 20:00: Xubuntu | 26 Mar 22:00: Server Team | 28 Mar 05:00: MOTU | 02 Apr 23:00: Server Team | 09 Apr 23:00: Server Team | 16 Apr 23:00: Server Team
[17:40] <Bobi> @schedule vienna
[17:40] <ubotu> Schedule for Europe/Vienna: 26 Mar 20:00: Xubuntu | 26 Mar 22:00: Server Team | 28 Mar 05:00: MOTU | 02 Apr 23:00: Server Team | 09 Apr 23:00: Server Team | 16 Apr 23:00: Server Team
[18:27] <Odd-rationale> xubuntu meeting is coming up in about a half hour?
[18:27] <zoredache> @schedule
[18:27] <ubotu> Schedule for Etc/UTC: 26 Mar 19:00: Xubuntu | 26 Mar 21:00: Server Team | 28 Mar 04:00: MOTU | 02 Apr 21:00: Server Team | 09 Apr 21:00: Server Team | 16 Apr 21:00: Server Team
[18:28] <zoredache> Odd-rationale: accourding to the schedule.
[18:28] <Odd-rationale> OK. Just making sure. Thanks!
[18:50] <keescook> er? xubuntu meeting vanished?
[18:52] <Riddell> "Current meeting: Xubuntu"
[18:52]  * keescook will learn to read some day.
[18:52] <heno> http://fridge.ubuntu.com/node/1385
[18:52] <meborc> in calendar, there is xubuntu and ubuntu securiti (or smth) both starting at 19:00
[18:53] <meborc> so which is starting now?
[18:53] <cody-somerville> :)
[18:53] <keescook> ubuntu security team meeting will be in #ubuntu-hardened.  xubuntu was here first.  :)
[18:53] <meborc> nice ;)
[18:53] <cody-somerville> Thanks :)
[18:55] <cody-somerville> \o/
[18:56] <sommer> hello
[18:56] <meborc> hi
[18:56] <vinze> Hi
[18:57] <cody-somerville> Heya jm1 :)
[18:57] <keescook> (ubuntu security team meeting: please join #ubuntu-hardened -- we've had a room conflict)
[18:57] <cody-somerville> Heya jgamio, vinze, TheSheep, etc. etc. :)
[18:57] <vinze> Hey cody-somerville :)
[18:57] <vinze> I've managed to make it :)
[18:57] <jgamio> hi cody-somerville
[18:58]  * cody-somerville cheers.
[18:58] <jgamio> hi everybody
[18:58] <bobi> hi
[18:58] <tomplast> Hello
[18:58] <cody-somerville> It looks like we've gotten a good turn out
[18:58] <jm1> hi cody-somerville
[18:58] <solar_george> hi
[18:59] <jono_> hi all! :)
[18:59]  * vorian waves
[18:59] <tomplast> Hello Jono
[18:59] <jono> hi vorian tomplast :)
[19:00]  * heno waves
[19:00] <keescook> (ubuntu security team meeting: please join #ubuntu-hardened -- we've had a room conflict)
[19:00] <vinze> keescook, perhaps that'd be useful in the topic?
[19:00] <highvoltage> hello jono
[19:01] <keescook> vinze: ubotu controls that.
[19:01] <jono> hey highvoltage
[19:01] <vinze> O ok
[19:02] <jono> right
[19:02] <jono> is everyone here?
[19:02] <tomplast> #define everyone ?
[19:02] <tomplast> ;)
[19:02] <cody-somerville> Jim isn't here.
[19:02] <zoredache> everyone = people who matter
[19:02] <jono> anyone  who wants to be involved in the xubuntu meeting :)
[19:03] <meborc> i'm here ;)
[19:03] <tomplast> Then at least I'm here :)
[19:03] <tomplast> And you ;)
[19:03] <vinze> cody-somerville, Jim did plan to be there didn't he?
[19:03] <vorian>  /me waves again :)
[19:03] <cody-somerville> Yup. He said he might be a few minutes late though, IIRC.
[19:04] <vinze> O OK
[19:04] <jono> ok, lets wait a few mins and then begin
[19:04]  * cody-somerville notes that he is at work and will have to leave for 15 minutes in an hour to go home. :)
[19:04]  * meborc makes food for everyone
[19:04] <cody-somerville> \o/
[19:04] <cody-somerville> Speak of the devil :)
[19:04] <jono> ok, all set?
[19:05] <jono> anyone else who should be here?
[19:05] <highvoltage> we could probably do some warm-up talk. who had enough time to properly think about the questions that cody-somerville asked?
[19:05] <j1mc> hi all.  i have 1 hour.  :)
[19:05] <jono> I have an hour too
[19:05] <jono> ok....
[19:05] <vinze> Hi j1mc
[19:05] <highvoltage> I found some of them a bit tough, but thought of it when I had a few gaps here and there :)
[19:05] <jono> for those who don't know me, I am Jono Bacon, I am the Ubuntu Community Manager
[19:05] <jono> and I generally try to help the community tick along as smoothly as possible
[19:05] <jono> while listening to very loud metal :)
[19:06] <cody-somerville> :)
[19:06] <heno> highvoltage: are these questions on a mailing list? Got URL?
[19:06] <vinze> Hehe
[19:06] <jono> cody-somerville came to me to raise a few of these problems in the community
[19:06] <vinze> heno, on the mailinglist
[19:06] <highvoltage> heno: yes, just a sec and I'll get you a link
[19:06] <jono> and the aim of this meeting is to raise the key issues and begin the road to solving them
[19:06] <heno> thx
[19:06] <highvoltage> heno: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/xubuntu-devel/2008-March/005242.html
[19:06] <highvoltage> everybody who hasn't read it yet, please do so before we get going.
[19:06] <jono> lets keep this meeting as cordial and happy as possible - it is about fixing problems, and we *can* fix these things
[19:07]  * cody-somerville nods.
[19:07] <jono> so cody-somerville,
[19:07] <jono> could you summarise the key issues in a few short sentances?
[19:07]  * cody-somerville nods.
[19:09] <cody-somerville> I believe the root issue for Xubuntu right now is that it lacks definition. There is no mission statement, no core objectives, no strategy, and no structure. This has resulted in a number of conflicts and has ultimately lead to several key contributors deciding that it isn't worth their time anymore.
[19:09] <vinze> Agreed
[19:09] <jono> right
[19:10] <jono> so this is something we should absolutely do - produce a mission statement, and a strategy for what you want to achieve with Xubuntu
[19:10] <jono> something that key contributors agree to
[19:10]  * cody-somerville nods.
[19:10] <_MMA_> Are those people even known?
[19:11] <_MMA_> "key contributors"
[19:11] <cody-somerville> Thats an excellent question.
[19:11] <jono> _MMA_: maybe not, but regular contributors may be
[19:11] <jono> I am not talking about importance
[19:11] <jono> I am talking about who does the work
[19:11] <bobi> is the decision of the key contributors definitive?
[19:11] <vinze> jono, beyond packagers I assume?
[19:11] <_MMA_> jono: Sure. In Ubuntu Studio we have those people on a list.
[19:12] <j1mc> with xubuntu we seem to have a small handful of people who do the packaging / seed work, and a few others who contribute in non-technical areas
[19:12] <jono> I think we need to approach this by first producing an approx strategy
[19:12] <j1mc> the conflict was on the technical side
[19:12] <jono> and then people going in and refining
[19:12]  * cody-somerville nods.
[19:12] <jono> I think it would be advisable for one person to drive these changes where possible
[19:12] <\sh> hi guys...sorry for being late...just got home
[19:12] <jono> is this some people would be happy cody-somerville doing - and would you be interested in doing this cody-somerville?
[19:13] <jono> it is not about just cody-somerville's view, but him fairly taking in feedback and adjusting the strategy
[19:13] <j1mc> i would be happy with cody drafting the strategy.  i think he has a good take on what xubuntu is about and could be about
[19:13] <vinze> I'm all for cody-somerville
[19:13]  * _MMA_ gives a +1 for Cody as he has been the most active and visible head of Xubuntu for a while.
[19:14] <jono> from my experience of cody, I would support him to do this too
[19:14] <jono> anyone else?
[19:14] <meborc> support on my side
[19:14] <highvoltage> well, cody has certainly taken initiative in getting things back on track again, by getting this meeting together and addressing the issues. no one else has. I think xubuntu needs cody-somerville to get things into shape a bit.
[19:14] <charlie-tca> I would support cody
[19:14] <highvoltage> so I support him too.
[19:14] <vinze> Btw, cody-somerville, are Lionel and/or Jerome here?
[19:14] <mr_pouit> +1 for cody too
[19:14] <jono> cody-somerville: would you be happy to do this work?
[19:14] <vinze> Ah
[19:14] <vinze> :)
[19:15] <cody-somerville> I'd be happy to. :)
[19:15] <jono> excellent
[19:15] <jono> so this is a great first step - someone to help drive this process
[19:15] <jono> I can also work with cody-somerville to assist him on getting a good strategy document together
[19:16]  * cody-somerville nods.
[19:16] <cody-somerville> I'd appreciate that.
[19:16] <jono> they key thing is that when this strategy document is in place, that the project can work to it - it will need broad acceptance
[19:16] <vinze> I think that should be no problem if community input is gathered
[19:16] <_MMA_> So then it's official, Cody is the lead on Xubuntu? I ask so there is a clear record.
[19:16] <meborc> ok
[19:17] <jono> ok, question for everyone now - please state one sentence aboiut what you feel the purpose of Xubuntu is - if someone else says what you think +1 them
[19:17] <jono> _MMA_: no, he is producing a strategy document, not neccessarly a lead
[19:17] <vinze> Producing a user-friendly desktop system, allowing for advanced configuration options without getting bloated
[19:17] <highvoltage> jono: could I provide a short reasoning for it?
[19:17] <jono> highvoltage: one sentance please
[19:17] <meborc> xubuntu is a LIGHTWEIGHT OS using xfce as a DE and lightweight applications
[19:17] <jono> we don't have a lot of time in this meeting
[19:18] <solar_george> +1 <vinze>
[19:18] <bobi> +1 vinze
[19:18] <tomplast> +1 vinze
[19:18] <highvoltage> "Xfce Distribution built on Ubuntu core values with usability as main focus."
[19:18] <charlie-tca> A desktop system for the older, slower systems that are not capable of running most GNOME and KDE
[19:18] <tomplast> ...and "a low memory footprint"i hope...
[19:18] <meborc> +1 charlie-tca
[19:18] <_MMA_> jono: I feel this needs to be established in this meeting. Otherwise, you get a continuation of the last cycle.
[19:18] <vorian> +1 highvoltage
[19:19] <jono> _MMA_: just give me some time
[19:19] <Odd-rationale> Xubuntu should aim to be a light and fast OS that uses xfce desktop and xfce/gtk apps as defaults as much as possible.
[19:19] <meborc> i believe the main fight was in either including or excluding some gnome applications... this should also be somehow said in the statement!
[19:19] <j1mc> +1 Odd-rationale
[19:19] <_MMA_> +1 highvoltage (even if it means GNOME apps)
[19:20] <mr_pouit> +1 Odd-rationale
[19:20] <meborc> +1 Odd-rationale
[19:20] <highvoltage> _MMA_: yes, that is one of the things I would've like to explain ;)
[19:20] <vinze> meborc, that should follow from the purpose
[19:20] <jono> anyone else?
[19:20] <charlie-tca> +1 _MMA_
[19:20] <jono> I am trying to amalgomate much of the key themes into a single mission here
[19:21] <vinze> I think that might become a big problem
[19:21] <meborc> vinze, yes, but if the purpose is a wide "political" talk, then anyone can misinterpret it
[19:21] <vinze> Two goals are quite conflicting
[19:21] <jono> would people agree with this:
[19:21] <jono> To produce an easy to use distirbution, based on Ubuntu, using Xfce as the graphical desktop, with a focus on integration, usability and performance, with a particular focus of running on lower powered computers. The integration in Xubuntu is at a configuration level, a toolkit level, and matching the underlying technology beneath the desktop in Ubuntu.
[19:21] <vinze> Hmm, true
[19:21] <vinze> No
[19:21] <j1mc> to me, the key issues are to decide on which side of the user-handholding of gnome and the lightness of gtk-only / xfce apps.
[19:21] <vinze> I don't think this would be a solution
[19:21] <bobi> i would see performance as the main of the three goals
[19:21] <jono> vinze: which bit?
[19:21] <_MMA_> And this conflict is why I believe there needs to be a clear lead who can say "THIS is what we're doing".
[19:22] <meborc> i agree with j1mc
[19:22] <jono> _MMA_: please...wait
[19:22] <j1mc> _MMA_: agreed
[19:22] <jono> _MMA_: we will get there
[19:22] <antares79> jono, i think a term like "lower-powered computer" is a little too vague these days.. just my 2¢
[19:22] <Odd-rationale> j1mc: I agree
[19:22] <_MMA_> SUre
[19:22] <charlie-tca> _MMA_ agreed
[19:22] <jono> ok, in the sentance I posted above, what is good and what is bad?
[19:22] <Seveas> antares79, $¢ or €¢?
[19:22] <vinze> jono, when you say "focus on integration, usability and performance", then you will still be having the discussions on whether to include heavier but user-friendly applications or not
[19:22] <vinze> Because usability and performance can conflict
[19:23] <Seveas> (oops, sorry, thought I was in -offtopic -- I'll be quiet)
[19:23] <jono> vinze: I agree - this is not about specifics, but general goals
[19:23] <bobi> jono: good is to set the focus on performance, usability and integration
[19:23] <vinze> Ah, then I think we can all agree on that
[19:23] <jono> ok
[19:23] <highvoltage> jono: I think you missed the ubuntu values part. not sure if that was intentional :)
[19:23] <jono> so do we all agree that the sentence I posted is a general goal
[19:23] <highvoltage> bobi++
[19:23] <vinze> +1 for highvoltage
[19:23] <posingaspopular> im worried about that performance bit jono
[19:23] <solar_george> jono yes
[19:24] <tomplast> Do we have to say "focus of running on lower powered computers" isn't "focus on making an effective and memory conservative system" better *-).
[19:24] <bobi> jono: yes, but we need to priorize priority, usability and integration
[19:24] <bobi> because they can conflict
[19:24] <j1mc> jono: i think that the "integration in Xubuntu is at a configuration level" requires some clarification, but i like the empahis on lower-powered computers.
[19:24] <jono> ok everyone, hold up
[19:24] <highvoltage> tomplast: indeed. and lots of people run Xubuntu on high-end computers too.
[19:24] <bobi> sorry, ment performance
[19:24] <jono> let me read
[19:24] <vinze> bobi, <jono> this is not about specifics, but general goals
[19:25] <jono> To produce an easy to use distribution, based on Ubuntu, using Xfce as the graphical desktop, with a focus on integration, usability and performance, with a particular focus on low memory footprint. The integration in Xubuntu is at a configuration level, a toolkit level, and matching the underlying technology beneath the desktop in Ubuntu. Xubuntu will be built and developed as part of the wider Ubuntu community, based around the
[19:25] <jono> ideals and values of Ubuntu.
[19:25] <jono> how about that?
[19:25] <bobi> sounds good
[19:25] <tomplast> Sound good to me as well :)
[19:25] <vinze> Same here
[19:25] <meborc> +1 :)
[19:25] <solar_george> +1
[19:25] <charlie-tca> +1
[19:25] <j1mc> jono: still don't understand the "the integration in Xubuntu is at a ..." but maybe i just don't get it because i'm not uber-technical.
[19:26] <j1mc> what is "the integration?"
[19:26] <jgamio> jono: i like change the easy with light
[19:26] <j1mc> in plain english
[19:26] <highvoltage> I agree too, is it necessary to say "easy to use" and "usibility" though? (I realise their a bit different, but I think it's the usability part that's actualy important)
[19:26] <Odd-rationale> when you say "with a focus on integration, usability and performance" is it in that order?
[19:26] <jono> j1mc: it basically means - xubuntu will be integrated and feel like a unit with configuration, the gui toolkit
[19:26] <vinze> Odd-rationale, <jono> this is not about specifics, but general goals
[19:27] <Odd-rationale> ok
[19:27] <j1mc> jono: ok. thank.
[19:27] <bobi> just a short general question: is there a place for new, unexperienced developers to help with xubuntu?
[19:27] <cody-somerville> For Xubuntu, I'd personally like Xubuntu be a powerful, useful desktop that is smart, concise, and usable.
[19:27] <jono> ok
[19:27] <vinze> bobi, I'd say a post to the xubuntu-devel mailinglist would be good to get you started
[19:27] <posingaspopular> bobi: yes, and it depends on where you want to start
[19:27] <jono> so would everyone agree that my sentence is a good general goal
[19:27] <vinze> bobi, and there's always xubuntu.org/devel
[19:27] <jono> does anything scream out as wrong?
[19:27] <vinze> Yup
[19:27] <vinze> No
[19:27] <bobi> jono: yes
[19:27] <antares79> jono, should this statement help to resolve conflicts between "integration and usability" (ie. feature-rich gnome apps) and "low memory footprint" (ie. gtk-only apps)?
[19:28] <antares79> if not, then +1 ;-)
[19:28] <jono> we are getting into specifics too much people
[19:28] <cody-somerville> jono, My only concern is making the primary emphasis a light memory footprint.
[19:28] <jono> I want _general_ concensus on _general_ goals
[19:28] <_MMA_> jono: To me, it doesnt settle to core conflict that has been going on over this dev cycle.
[19:28] <cody-somerville> I think Xubuntu should be useful before light.
[19:28] <antares79> alright, then +1
[19:28] <vinze> So nothing is emphasized yet
[19:28] <Odd-rationale> jono: Generally, good.
[19:28] <jono> _MMA_: listen...I am going to get to this
[19:28] <meborc> if general goal is for low memory, then i'm for it
[19:28] <jono> _MMA_: this is an iterative process
[19:28] <meborc> :)
[19:28] <_MMA_> jono: See my PM.
[19:29] <meborc> jono, sorry, this is a very painful topic for many of us
[19:29] <vinze> Xubuntu has a few goals, there has been a conflict on which has the highest priority, but atm we're just defining those goals, right?
[19:29]  * cody-somerville notes that almost half of the meeting is up for most people.
[19:29] <highvoltage> jono: to be honest, it's difficult to get general consensus when it affects big specific things that are important to many people, such as the gnome libs inclusion issue.
[19:30] <jono> all I am looking for before we discuss any specifics of leadership, or specific libraries or gnome inclusion, is a general viewpoint on what we are trying to achieve
[19:30] <jono> it seems that me in a nutshell you folks want to produce a sleek, usable distro with a focus on performance
[19:30]  * j1mc nods
[19:30] <Odd-rationale> jono: Correct. That is what I want.
[19:30] <cody-somerville> IMHO, I don't think we have the expertise to have a focus on performance.
[19:31] <cody-somerville> Although, I think we could certainly strive to be light weight.
[19:31] <solar_george> sounds about right
[19:31] <_MMA_> jono: What Xubuntu is trying to achieve is really up to the people involved.
[19:31] <jono> right - I am just looking for a general agreement on what the  high level goals are
[19:31] <\sh> jono: I think xubuntu has the very same problem as Kubuntu has, which is integration with the core part of ubuntu...so I think to get Xubuntu on track, you should focus on core OS integration level (hal, dbus et all)
[19:31] <jono> \sh: indeed this is _general_ goals
[19:32]  * meborc has to leave :( but i'm screaming on my way - MAKE XUBUNTU LIGHT AGAIN :) have a nice evening all...
[19:32] <jono> please folks, we will get to specifics, but before we can we need to understand what is the general goal of Xubuntu
[19:32] <jono> it seems that "To produce an easy to use distribution, based on Ubuntu, using Xfce as the graphical desktop, with a focus on integration, usability and performance, with a particular focus on low memory footprint. The integration in Xubuntu is at a configuration level, a toolkit level, and matching the underlying technology beneath the desktop in Ubuntu. Xubuntu will be built and developed as part of the wider Ubuntu community, ba
[19:32] <jono> sed around the ideals and values of Ubuntu." seems to cater for most general goals
[19:32] <highvoltage> jono: well, it seems that in _general_, people do actually agree with that general goal
[19:32] <jono> how those thngs are implemented is another discussion naturally
[19:33]  * j1mc nods
[19:33] <vinze> OK, so I think we all agree on that?
[19:33] <jono> so it seems the key themes are: usability, performance, integration, community processes
[19:33] <jono> agreed?
[19:33] <Odd-rationale> I agree with that goal statement.
[19:33] <vinze> +1
[19:33] <jono> ok cool
[19:33] <highvoltage> +1
[19:33] <_MMA_> +1
[19:33] <bobi> +1
[19:33] <solar_george> +1
[19:33] <tomplast> +1
[19:33] <cody-somerville> I think that statement is a good start, +1
[19:33] <j1mc> +1
[19:33] <posingaspopular> +1
[19:33] <jgamio> +1
[19:34] <jono> now what I think we need to do is to use that statement as a general mission statement for the project
[19:34] <jono> we can now begin discuss exactly how this is implemented
[19:34] <jono> now, I want to focus on what _MMA_ discussed
[19:34] <jono> leadership
[19:34] <jono> there seems to be a lot of faith in cody-somerville
[19:34] <jono> do you all feel there should be a leader, and if so, would it be cody-somerville?
[19:35] <bobi> yes
[19:35] <vinze> I think currently Lionel is project lead, right?
[19:35] <jono> (you don't have to say if you would want to be a leader, yet)
[19:35] <cody-somerville> vinze, Lionel has stopped contributing to Xubuntu for the time being
[19:35] <vinze> Ow, OK, thanks cody-somerville
[19:36] <jono> I personally feel cody-somerville is demonstrated good leadership skills from what I have seen
[19:36] <highvoltage> afaik, cody-somerville seems to be the only person who has made himself available to do it, and he seems capable to me.
[19:36] <jono> what does everyone else think?
[19:36] <_MMA_> I have watched Cody really step up. He is active in the Ubuntu development channels and looks to really want Xubuntu to shine again.
[19:36] <vinze> Agreed
[19:36] <j1mc> i get the feeling that, if we have a leader, that they will likely have the final say on some technical matters, and that everyone might not agree with their perspective, but that is part of having a leader.  i just think it's important to mention that.
[19:36] <Odd-rationale> +1 cody-somerville
[19:36] <tomplast> Has Lionel said anything about this?
[19:36] <bobi> +1 cody
[19:36] <j1mc> mr_pouit: ?
[19:36] <vinze> On the other hand, I think we should involve Lionel in this
[19:36] <j1mc> comments?
[19:36] <vinze> And mr_pouit
[19:36] <solar_george> +1 cody-somerville
[19:36] <cody-somerville> vinze, mr_pouit is Lionel :)
[19:36] <vinze> Ehm, wait
[19:36] <vinze> Yeah
[19:36] <_MMA_> I have had many talks with Cody and also looks to be able to devote the time needed.
[19:36] <vinze> Sorry, Jerome I meant >.<
[19:36] <mr_pouit> j1mc: I'm still ok with cody ;)
[19:36] <vinze> (What's his nick?)
[19:37] <smarter> jeromeg
[19:37] <jono> ok, next question:
[19:37] <vinze> Thanks smarter
[19:37] <j1mc> +1 for cody... :)  (had to get that in there)
[19:37] <cody-somerville> :) thanks.
[19:37] <jono> would you all be happy for cody-somerville to lead the project, based upon the general goal we agreed earlier?
[19:37] <posingaspopular> +1 cody
[19:37] <vinze> Yes
[19:37] <Odd-rationale> aye
[19:37] <jgamio> +1
[19:37] <j1mc> Yes
[19:37] <_MMA_> +1 Cody
[19:37] <vorian> +1
[19:37] <highvoltage> +1
[19:37] <solar_george> +1 cody-somerville
[19:38] <bobi> +1
[19:38] <jono> next question:
[19:38] <jono> do you think that Xubuntu would REALLY KICK ARSE with cody-somerville leading and based on that general goal earlier? :)
[19:38] <highvoltage> jono: for the record, Xubuntu already really kicks arse ;)
[19:38] <jm1> +1
[19:38] <highvoltage> (but yes, it would)
[19:39] <Odd-rationale> +
[19:39] <Odd-rationale> 1
[19:39] <tomplast> +1 from what I have seen so far
[19:39] <bobi> :) +1
[19:39] <vinze> +1 for highvoltage's comment :)
[19:39] <vinze> But yeah
[19:39] <jono> cody-somerville: would you be interested in leading the Xubuntu project?
[19:39] <cody-somerville> Yes, sir! :)
[19:39] <vinze> \0/
[19:40] <jono> in which case we have made three important steps forward here:
[19:40] <jono> 1) picked a leader
[19:40] <jono> 2) agreed on a general mission statement of goals
[19:40] <jono> 3) agreed that cody-somerville will develop a strategy based on that mission statement
[19:41] <Odd-rationale> now for specifics?
[19:41] <j1mc> i just want to reiterate that, part of having a leader is that we may not always agree with cody's gnome/non-gnome app choices, but that we need to make sure that we're respectful of each other in the decision-making processes, and that we still work together as a community.
[19:41] <cody-somerville> Well said j1mc
[19:41] <_MMA_> j1mc: +1
[19:41] <Odd-rationale> j1mc: +1
[19:42] <jono> I believe the next step is for cody-somerville to develop an initial strategy based on his experience of the project, and then we can use that as a basis for the next meeting
[19:42] <jono> we need something to work from to move forward effectively
[19:42] <jono> so I recommend cody-somerville works on this document and then presents it to the community for comment and we schedule another meeting
[19:42]  * cody-somerville nods.
[19:42] <posingaspopular> when would the next meeting be?
[19:43] <jono> posingaspopular: whenever cody-somerville has the document completed
[19:43] <jono> I recommend in a week or so
[19:43] <vinze> I think you can track xubuntu-devel for that
[19:43] <posingaspopular> i certainly dont want to rush cody-somerville
[19:43] <vinze> (Perhaps a notice on xubuntu.org?)
[19:43] <jono> I think cody-somerville is likely to be well aware of the key themes and concerns
[19:43] <jono> and his strategy should seek to satisfy the general goals we agreed earlier
[19:43] <jono> is everyone in favour of this step forward?
[19:44] <highvoltage> well, maybe there should be some kind of draft in about a week or so, and then there could be a request for comments.
[19:44] <cody-somerville> +1
[19:44] <vinze> +1
[19:44] <highvoltage> +1
[19:44] <jono> highvoltage:yep
[19:44] <tomplast> +1
[19:44] <Odd-rationale> +1
[19:44] <bobi> +1
[19:44] <j1mc> +1
[19:44] <solar_george> +1
[19:44] <jm1> +1
[19:44] <jono> great stuff
[19:44] <vinze> Thanks jono
[19:44] <jono> I think we made some good progress here folks :)
[19:44] <_MMA_> I'd also like to see some of this CC'e to the devel-discuss ML.
[19:44] <jono> I will help cody-somerville flesh something definitive out, and then lets meet again when the document is complete
[19:45] <bobi> at least, it's a very good first step
[19:45] <jono> I would recommend posting the meeting log
[19:45] <jono> thanks everyone for your participation
[19:45] <Odd-rationale> Thanks, jono.
[19:45] <jono> :)
[19:45] <Odd-rationale> Good luck, cody-somerville
[19:45] <cody-somerville> Thank you everyone for your kind words
[19:45]  * vinze thanks jono and our newly-apponted leader cody-somerville :)
[19:45] <cody-somerville> I appreciate your faith and I look forward to working with all of you
[19:45] <bobi> congratulations cody-somerville ;)
[19:45] <j1mc> :)
[19:45] <vinze> Congrats cody-somerville :)
[19:45] <jono> :)
[19:45] <cody-somerville> And a big thanks to jono for coming out to help us
[19:45] <highvoltage> and thanks cody-somerville
[19:45] <vorian> best of luck cody-somerville :)
[19:45] <solar_george> all hail cody-somerville
[19:45]  * _MMA_ wonders if Cody is old enough to get a pint in Prague? :P
[19:45] <jono> cody-somerville: your welcome :)
[19:46] <posingaspopular> congrats cody-somerville
[19:46] <highvoltage> and thanks to jono too. this might have been a very long meeting without him :)
[19:46] <posingaspopular> thanks jono
[19:46] <tomplast> Congrats cody-somerville
[19:46] <cody-somerville> _MMA_, I'm sure we'll share a few ;]
[19:46] <jono> no worries folks :)
[19:46] <_MMA_> ;)
[19:46] <vinze> highvoltage, we're no easy crows, eh? ;-)
[19:46] <charlie-tca_> good luck cody-somerville
[19:46] <vinze> s/crows/crowd
[19:46] <tomplast> you will need it :E. I vote for only KDE-apps in Xubuntu ;)
[19:46] <cody-somerville> I welcome everyone over to #xubuntu-devel for further chit chatting and brainstorming :)
[19:46] <vinze> +1 for tomplast :P

[19:46] <highvoltage> vinze: heh, yes.
[19:47] <jono> later all
[19:47] <jono> :)
[19:47] <vinze> Bye jono
[19:47] <tomplast> bye Jono, bring some bacon next time ;)
[19:47] <cody-somerville> I can write up a meeting summary and post it/send it out/etc. if nobody else absolutely wants to :)
[19:47] <bobi> bye jono, thanks
[19:47]  * highvoltage hits the end-of-meeting-gong
[19:47] <highvoltage> *gong*
[19:47] <jono> hehe
[19:47] <jono> bye all! :)
[19:47] <vinze> tomplast, I bet he never heard that one before :P
[19:47] <tomplast> vinze: Couldn't resist :p
[19:47] <vinze> cody-somerville, I can do it too if you'd like
[19:53] <michalski> question: im facing dst changes in my country, is the server team meeting now or in 1 hour?
[19:54] <sommer> michalski: an hour
[19:54] <Seveas> @now
[19:54] <michalski> ... lol :P
[19:54] <zoredache> it is currently 19:54 utc...
[19:54] <Seveas> argh, meeting in progress says ubotu
[19:54] <Seveas> michalski, /msg ubotu now
[19:54] <michalski> michalski, /msg ubotu now
[19:54] <Seveas> michalski, and /msg ubotu schedule
[19:54] <michalski> blah
[19:55] <james_w> #ubuntu-hardened I believe
[19:55] <sommer> !schedule
[19:55] <ubotu> Ubuntu releases a new version every 6 months. Each version is supported for 18 months to 5 years. More info at http://www.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/releases & http://wiki.ubuntu.com/TimeBasedReleases
[19:55] <zoredache> @schedule
[19:55] <michalski> ok woh woh, server team meeting is here, in 1 hour got it
[19:55] <michalski> :) thank you
[19:56] <michalski> i cant attend...
[19:56] <michalski> cadets is starting in an hour, sommer can you pass this on
[19:57] <sommer> michalski: sure, that you won't make it?
[19:58] <vinze> michalski, I'd check in #ubuntu-hardened, there was some message about that at the beginning of the Xubuntu meeting but I can't find it in my logs :(
[19:59] <michalski> thanks vinze but im not with the Xubuntu team :), server team
[19:59] <michalski> for me
[20:00] <michalski> yes sommer, cadets is starting at 21:00zulu, i could attend the meetings before daylight savings time but ugh darn it
[20:00] <michalski> zulu=gmt=utc :)
[20:01] <vinze> michalski, yes, but there was a message for those from the server team at the start of the Xubuntu meeting
[20:01] <vinze> michalski, because of an agenda conflict
[20:01] <michalski> oh realy?
[20:02] <vinze> Just check that room, I'm not sure :P
[20:02] <sommer> vinze: I think the announcement was for the security team, which is different than server :-)
[20:02] <vinze> sommer, ah, thanks :)
[20:03] <vinze> jeromeg, timezone error? :)
[20:03] <jeromeg> vinze: nope, lot of homework
[20:03] <michalski> :)
[20:03] <vinze> jeromeg, ah :)
[20:04] <jeromeg> i'm just staying here for a few minutes, then will have to leave :)
[20:05] <vinze> jeromeg, it's finished already :)
[20:05] <jeromeg> oh :)
[20:05] <jeromeg> that's why nothing happens :)
[20:05] <vinze> Hehe
[20:05] <vinze> I'm going to type up a summary in a sec
[20:05] <jeromeg> great
[20:09] <cody-somerville> jeromeg, discussion is still strong in #xubuntu-devel
[20:10] <dthacker-work> @now
[20:10] <ubotu> Current time in Etc/UTC: March 26 2008, 20:10:49 - Current meeting: Xubuntu
[20:24] <michalski> @tommorow
[20:29] <TuxCrafter> is the xubuntu-meeting still in process?
[20:29] <michalski> no
[20:30] <TuxCrafter> michalski: thanks
[20:30] <vinze> TuxCrafter, join #xubuntu-devel for more discussion
[20:58]  * mathiaz gets some popcorn for the upcoming server meeting
[20:59] <sommer> o//
[20:59]  * keescook waves "hi"
[20:59]  * owh sips coffee and waves after less than an hour sleep.
[20:59]  * faulkes- whistles innocently
[21:00] <soren> o/
[21:00]  * kirkland tips his hat
[21:00] <jdstrand>  \o
[21:00]  * dthacker-work silences his pager....again
[21:01] <mathiaz> alright - let's get started !
[21:01]  * nijaba waves
[21:01] <zul> hello
[21:01] <mathiaz> #startmeeting
[21:01] <MootBot> Meeting started at 22:01. The chair is mathiaz.
[21:01] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[21:01] <mathiaz> Today's agenda is located on this wiki page: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Meeting
[21:02] <mathiaz> If anyone would like to add point to be discussed, please update the wiki page
[21:02] <mathiaz> and I'll make sure your brilliant idea will be discussed during this meeting
[21:03] <mathiaz> [TOPIC] Review ACTION points from previous meeting.
[21:03] <MootBot> New Topic:  Review ACTION points from previous meeting.
[21:03] <soren> Uh, oh.
[21:03] <owh> :)
[21:03] <mathiaz> The previous meeting minutes: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/Server/20080319
[21:03] <mathiaz> [TOPIC] iscsi support
[21:03] <MootBot> New Topic:  iscsi support
[21:04] <soren> Right..
[21:04]  * michalski waves but must leave for cadets in 5 mins
[21:04] <soren> Erm... I forget if we covered this part of it, but slangasek said it'd be fine to do it even now that we're past beta.
[21:04] <soren> So we're doing it.
[21:04] <mathiaz> soren: yeah - we said that
[21:05] <soren> Ok.
[21:05] <mathiaz> faulkes-: did you manage to get access to your iSCSI hardware ?
[21:05] <soren> Ah, right last wednesday.
[21:05] <soren> WEll, I've been on holiday Thursday->Monday, so not a lot has happened since then.
[21:06] <soren> I'm still trying to wrap my head around what needs to be done to the installer, to make the resulting system figure out that it needs to mount stuff over the network.
[21:06] <mathiaz> soren: when do you think you'll get something ready for testing ?
[21:06] <soren> I'm probably going to ask someone with more experience in this area for pointers tomorrow or something.
[21:06] <soren> If we're lucky, by the end of this week.
[21:06] <mathiaz> soren: have you discussed with slangasek about a deadline to get it included ?
[21:07] <soren> Nope.
[21:07] <mathiaz> soren: I don't think we want to ship this just before RC
[21:07] <soren> I forget when that is.
[21:07] <mathiaz> soren: in two weeks and 1 day from now
[21:07] <soren> Ok. That should be plenty of time.
[21:07] <mathiaz> soren: RC is three weeks after beta, which was released last thursday
[21:08] <soren> Got it.
[21:09] <mathiaz> [TOPIC] status action for init script
[21:09] <MootBot> New Topic:  status action for init script
[21:09] <mathiaz> kirkland: I think you've updated the Roadmap
[21:09]  * michalski must go but will leave irc client on and review meeting afterwards
[21:09] <kirkland> mathiaz: yep.  in brief, we've abandoned this item for Hardy
[21:09] <michalski> sorry mathiaz, dst
[21:10] <mathiaz> this whole point was deferred for after Intrepid
[21:10] <mathiaz> michalski: np
[21:10] <mathiaz> hum - for Intrepid sorry
[21:10] <kirkland> mathiaz: will work on in Intrepid, with Keybuk and upstart, possibly a blueprint for UDS Prague
[21:10] <kirkland> mathiaz: goal remains noble and important!  :-)
[21:11] <owh> Is there any point in making the patches available for those admins wanting the functionality?
[21:11] <mathiaz> kirkland: great - we'll discuss that during UDS then
[21:11] <mathiaz> owh: I don't think so
[21:11] <mathiaz> owh: it's not worth taking the time to do it IMO
[21:11] <owh> mathiaz: They have already been written.
[21:11] <kirkland> owh: leave them attached to bugs in launchpad
[21:12] <kirkland> owh: if someone is so motivated, they should be able to find them there
[21:12] <mathiaz> kirkland: right - that's enough I think
[21:12] <kirkland> owh: and we may well revisit them come Intrepid
[21:12] <owh> kirkland: Should we add them all to the same lsb bug?
[21:12] <kirkland> owh: that, or link that one to the other bugs that contain such patches
[21:12] <mathiaz> kirkland: probably not - upstart doesn't use the system-v init script at all
[21:12] <kirkland> mathiaz: will the upstart conversion be COMPLETED in Intrepid?
[21:13] <owh> kirkland: Cool, we'll talk later.
[21:13] <kirkland> owh: fair 'nuff
[21:13] <mathiaz> owh: one thing you should do is send them to debian
[21:13] <owh> I'll action that for me for next week's meeting.
[21:13] <soren> kirkland: We need to to them all at once.
[21:13] <owh> mathiaz: And that too.
[21:13] <mathiaz> owh: if they're accepted there, we'll get them automatically during Intreprid
[21:13] <soren> kirkland: Well, that's not strictly true..
[21:13] <owh> mathiaz: Yup.
[21:13] <kirkland> mathiaz: good idea.
[21:14] <mathiaz> soren: all at once ?
[21:14] <mathiaz> soren: I thought it can be done a per package basis
[21:14] <soren> We need to start at one end and work our way to the other.
[21:14] <soren> We can't usefully just pick one init script, convert it, pick the next, convert it..
[21:14] <owh> mathiaz: Technically there is an lsb patch needed before the init script patches will work.
[21:14] <soren> We need to start at S01foo and work our way to S99 or the other way around.
[21:15] <kirkland> soren: we were thinking doing it massively in parallel, in that it's very small, compact work that a lot of minimally experienced developers can hack out
[21:15] <mathiaz> soren: hum - I see your point. Anyway that will be discussed during UDS
[21:15] <soren> Because from upstart's point of view, starting *all* of rc2.d/S* is just one event.
[21:15] <owh> soren: kirkland and I targetted those that are installed in hardy.
[21:15] <soren> So if we pick stuff out from the middle, we can't ensure the ordering.
[21:15] <mathiaz> [ACTION] owh to attach existing patches to bugs in LP and forward them to Debian
[21:16] <MootBot> ACTION received:  owh to attach existing patches to bugs in LP and forward them to Debian
[21:16] <soren> kirkland: Cool.
[21:16] <owh> Yup
[21:16] <mathiaz> Great - let's move on.
[21:16] <soren> kirkland: It's just not very obvious, so I wanted to point it out just to be sure.
[21:16] <mathiaz> [TOPIC] Server Survey and Brainstorm
[21:16] <MootBot> New Topic:  Server Survey and Brainstorm
[21:17] <nijaba> not much new on that subject
[21:17] <mathiaz> So I was wondering how these two things were integrating together
[21:17] <nijaba> faulkes fixed the last 2 bugs
[21:17] <nijaba> and I packaged limesurvey
[21:17] <mathiaz> could the survey leverage the brainstorm site ?
[21:17] <nijaba> what do you mean integrating the 2
[21:18] <nijaba> how?
[21:18] <mathiaz> or some of the question of the survey be also presented on brainstorm ?
[21:18] <keescook> apologies: I continue not to have time to audit limesurvey -- it is at the top of my audit TODO list now, though.
[21:18] <nijaba> I don't really see how we could link the 2...
[21:18] <zul> keescook: I did a quick lookthrough for nijaba I didnt go to deep though
[21:19] <kirkland> mathiaz: I'm not seeing this either...  you'd want to publish nijaba's survey questions as suggestions to brainstorm?
[21:19] <nijaba> zul: keescook is talking abut a secuorty audit
[21:19] <mathiaz> nijaba: I don't know how the survey is structured - can some questions be also posted to brainstorm ?
[21:19] <zul> nijaba: ah
[21:19] <mathiaz> kirkland: yes
[21:19] <mathiaz> I didn't mean link in a technical sense - more on the content
[21:20] <kirkland> mathiaz: the survey is more like "how do you use your linux server?  what kind are they?"  etc...
[21:20] <nijaba> mathiaz: really, brainstorm is totally different
[21:20] <kirkland> mathiaz: brainstorm is more like "i want a perpetual motion machine, can you please make ubuntu do one for me?"
[21:20] <nijaba> we don't ask and vote for ideas in the survey
[21:21] <mathiaz> nijaba: ok - so don't ask question such as "would you like to see better virtualization?" and so on
[21:21] <soren> Ooh! Oh! And a pony!
[21:21] <nijaba> mathiaz: no we don't
[21:21] <mathiaz> nijaba: it's more about what do you do with ubuntu server ? what is your environment... and so on.
[21:22] <owh> soren: No, the best one was: "I want Ubuntu to boot on an Apple TV without hacking."
[21:22] <nijaba> mathiaz: correct
[21:22] <mathiaz> nijaba: ok - thanks for the clarification.
[21:22] <mathiaz> I got a question from jono about that.
[21:22] <soren> owh: Fantastic.
[21:22] <nijaba> so invite jono to take a test drive of the survey
[21:23] <mathiaz> [TOPIC] integration of dovecot/postfix sasl
[21:23] <MootBot> New Topic:  integration of dovecot/postfix sasl
[21:23] <mathiaz> ivoks: so what's going on there ?
[21:24] <ivoks> mathiaz: i suggest creating new binary inside of dovecot source package
[21:24] <ivoks> which would depend on postfix and dovecot-common
[21:24] <ivoks> problematic part is; how to handle dovecot's configuration
[21:25] <mathiaz> ivoks: IIRC this was to get around the policy that a package cannot modify another package configuration files
[21:25] <ivoks> option one is to patch it so it doesn't fail when starting, if there's no postfix installed
[21:25] <ivoks> option two is to patch dovecot.conf with that new binary
[21:25] <ivoks> i'm not sure option two is leagal
[21:26] <soren> Why not?
[21:26] <owh> ivoks: What about shipping two configurations and launching with the appropriate one?
[21:26] <ivoks> owh: i was investigating if it is possible to include part of the configuration, but that is not possible
[21:26] <mathiaz> soren: well - you can't modify from postinst script the conffile of another package
[21:27] <owh> ivoks: I mean the init.d script can figure out how to start the application appropriately.
[21:27] <ivoks> mathiaz: well, we already do that in dovecot
[21:27] <soren> mathiaz: Another binary package? Sure you can.
[21:27] <ivoks> owh: but, what if user edits dovecot.conf?
[21:27] <soren> mathiaz: As long as:
[21:27] <mathiaz> ivoks: yes - that's write - we do that with -popd and -imap
[21:27] <soren> a) it's from the same source package
[21:27] <soren> or
[21:27] <soren> b) the owner package provides a tool to fiddle with it.
[21:28]  * faulkes- gets coffee
[21:28] <ivoks> soren: can you give me a solid reference for a)? :)
[21:28] <mathiaz> soren: in our case if would a)
[21:28] <mathiaz> ivoks: dovecot does that
[21:28] <owh> ivoks: You can combine the parts into a running config file and launch with that.
[21:28] <soren> The purpose of that particular part of the policy is to make sure that anything that happens to conffile foo is under control.
[21:28] <soren> Sorry.
[21:28] <soren> Not conffile.
[21:29] <soren> config file.
[21:29] <ivoks> right, dovecot.conf isn't a conffile
[21:29] <mathiaz> dovecot.conf is handled via ucf
[21:29] <ivoks> right
[21:29] <soren> Right.
[21:29] <soren> If you're not using conffiles, it's your responsibility to make sure upgrades are handled sanely etc., etc.
[21:29] <ivoks> owh: not very easy...
[21:30] <soren> That's impossible if you're not controlling the changes to it.
[21:30] <mathiaz> ivoks: I think your proposal to create a new package dovecot-postfix-sasl binary package makes sense
[21:30] <mathiaz> ivoks: we're already doing similar things in -pop and -imap
[21:30] <soren> You can do that by providing a tool to do it (think postconf) or if it's all done by packages from the same source package.
[21:30] <ivoks> mathiaz: right, trough postinst
[21:31] <mathiaz> ivoks: you can probably base your patch on the code from -pop or -imap
[21:31] <ivoks> so, everybody in favour of modifying dovecot.conf trough new-binary's postinst?
[21:31] <mathiaz> ivoks: it's a perl command IIRC
[21:31] <owh> I'm not convinced its too complicated this late in the game.
[21:31] <ivoks> mathiaz: well, you have only one 'protocols' in dovecot.conf, but lots of 'server' and 'client'
[21:31]  * soren dreams of dovecot providing a tool to do this sort of thing
[21:31] <mathiaz> ivoks: WFM - we're already doing it in the -pop and -imap packages
[21:32] <mathiaz> owh: good point - that was another issue I was about to raise
[21:32] <mathiaz> I'm not sure we'll get a FFe for that
[21:32]  * owh got slapped down with a simple init script patch :)
[21:32] <mathiaz> It may be too late in the release cycle for that.
[21:32] <ivoks> mathiaz: imho, that's caused by bad FF process
[21:33] <owh> ivoks: What happens if you do nothing?
[21:33] <ivoks> mathiaz: we had patch for tasksel, and it was rejected in the last minute
[21:33] <ivoks> while, it was available for months
[21:33] <owh> ivoks: That is, if you make no changes, what breaks?
[21:33] <mathiaz> ivoks: right.
[21:33] <mathiaz> owh: nothing
[21:33] <mathiaz> owh: it's just a new feature
[21:33] <owh> What about adding a paragraph to the README?
[21:34] <mathiaz> owh: so the question is whether it will be tested enough
[21:34] <owh> Non-invasive, simple, etc.
[21:34] <ivoks> owh: we want to provide out of the box super mail server
[21:34] <mathiaz> ivoks: I think we should talk to the release team anyway
[21:34] <owh> mathiaz: So, make the README point to a wiki page.
[21:34] <ivoks> mathiaz: i agree
[21:35] <owh> s/README/README paragraph/
[21:35] <mathiaz> ivoks: so either you can detail your new proposal in the bug and ask the release team about it
[21:35] <mathiaz> ivoks: or provide a debdiff and attach it to the LP bug and talk to the release team
[21:35] <ivoks> mathiaz: i'll provide debdiff
[21:36] <owh> In terms of config file changes, how much effort is involved for a system administrator to make this work?
[21:36] <mathiaz> ivoks: in the event of refusal, we'd have a debdiff ready for intrepid
[21:36] <mathiaz> owh: well - the procedure is straightforward
[21:36] <mathiaz> owh: this is why we want to provide a package to do it ;)
[21:36] <ivoks> right
[21:36] <owh> I would be in favour of documenting it, providing a sample config perhaps and moving on.
[21:37] <sommer> owh: it's documented
[21:37] <mathiaz> owh: ^^ - yes
[21:37] <ivoks> owh: feature is documented and well known
[21:37] <mathiaz> owh: this step is automate it
[21:37] <ivoks> owh: it's stupid not to provide it by default, when everybody does it manually afterwards :)
[21:37] <owh> I understand that, but its a new feature.
[21:37] <owh> What ever you call it :)
[21:37] <ivoks> s/everybody/everybody that's aware of it/
[21:38] <mathiaz> [ACTION] ivoks to attach a new debdiff to the LP bug and ask the release team about a FFe
[21:38] <MootBot> ACTION received:  ivoks to attach a new debdiff to the LP bug and ask the release team about a FFe
[21:38] <mathiaz> owh: yes.
[21:38] <owh> I'm not disagreeing with you, just putting up a fight that you're going to have in a few moments with the release team.
[21:38] <ivoks> deal
[21:38] <mathiaz> However, even if we don't get it in hardy, we'll get it into intrepid
[21:38]  * owh is trying to help you strengthen your argument ;)
[21:39] <ivoks> mathiaz: ok
[21:39] <mathiaz> ivoks: just keep in mind that it may be rejected for hardy
[21:39] <ivoks> i'm aware of that
[21:40] <mathiaz> [TOPIC] Documentation and the server guide
[21:40] <MootBot> New Topic:  Documentation and the server guide
[21:40] <mathiaz> sommer: Do you start to have feedback from the translators ?
[21:40] <sommer> mathiaz: yep, got a bunch of spelling mistakes fixed :-)
[21:40] <nealmcb> :-)
[21:40] <ivoks> :)
[21:41] <sommer> there's a bunch of ideas for intrepid in the server team idea pool as well
[21:41] <mathiaz> Now that the server guide is frozen for hardy, it may be worth spending some time on the wiki pages
[21:41] <sommer> mathiaz: yep, my plan is to work on the Samba sections I've been putting off... heh
[21:42] <mathiaz> sommer: is there any progress on the macros to be able to mark the release for which the wiki page is relevant ?
[21:42] <sommer> mathiaz: not sure, I can check on that though
[21:43] <sommer> I've heard rumors that the wiki install will be updated?
[21:43] <mathiaz> sommer: reading through the list of the wiki page on the roadmap, I'd suggest to start with AD integration
[21:43] <sommer> mathiaz: cool, will do
[21:43] <mathiaz> sommer: the arrival of likewise-open in hardy should make things much simpler to setup
[21:44] <sommer> that's been my experience :)
[21:44] <mathiaz> sommer: could you prioritize the list on the Roadmap and use numbered list instead of a bullet point list ?
[21:44] <sommer> mathiaz: sure
[21:44]  * sommer has a thing for bullets
[21:44] <zul> oh dear :)
[21:45] <mathiaz> [ACTION] sommer to start working on the wiki page related to samba and update the roadmap list
[21:45] <MootBot> ACTION received:  sommer to start working on the wiki page related to samba and update the roadmap list
[21:45] <mathiaz> [TOPIC] Virtualization
[21:45] <MootBot> New Topic:  Virtualization
[21:45] <mathiaz> soren: anything new on this front ?
[21:47]  * soren thinks
[21:47] <jdstrand> didn't a patch make it to allow for bridged networks to work right?
[21:47] <jdstrand> (and the wiki updated)
[21:47] <mathiaz> jdstrand: are you refering to hal's patch ?
[21:47] <keescook> bridged always worked okay (but was recently more well documented)
[21:47] <soren> Don't think so. Thursday->Monday holiday. Tuesday: Catch up on e-mail. Today: other stuff.
[21:47] <mathiaz> I was able to setup a bridge network for my server and it works well
[21:47] <keescook> the hal patch was for odd-ball interfaces (like my VLAN ifaces)
[21:47]  * jdstrand is not sure what he is referring to, as he hasn't used bridged networking with kvm yet ;)
[21:48] <mathiaz> soren: right - I've forgot about this..
[21:48] <soren> mathiaz: :) No worries.
[21:48] <keescook> on the general virtualization topic, I uploaded a fix so that virt-clone would actually work.  :)
[21:48] <sommer> keescook: sweet
[21:48] <jdstrand> keescook: oh and it works well! thanks!
[21:48] <soren> keescook: Ah, right. Thanks for that!
[21:48] <soren> keescook: Saved me the trouble :)
[21:49] <keescook> hehe :)
[21:49] <mathiaz> keescook: jdstrand so you guys are running all the security testing with kvm now ?
[21:49] <mathiaz> keescook: jdstrand it may be an interesting story to showcase somehow
[21:49] <mathiaz> nijaba: ^^
[21:49] <keescook> mathiaz: yup -- I used jdstrand's conversion tool and uninstalled vmware
[21:49] <nijaba> mathiaz: noted
[21:49] <jdstrand> yes
[21:49] <jdstrand> I have been fine tuning it
[21:50] <mathiaz> keescook: jdstrand and you're testing desktop apps with it
[21:50] <mathiaz> ie run with X
[21:50] <jdstrand> but I have i386 and amd64 and amd64/2 vcpus for all four releases and hardy
[21:50] <jdstrand> mathiaz: absolutely
[21:50] <jdstrand> I have ones with just 'ubuntu-standard' and others with 'ubuntu-desktop'
[21:51] <jdstrand> I now use virt-clone to clone one of my pristine vms so I can do development/patching
[21:51] <jdstrand> they are *very* handy
[21:51] <mathiaz> I think that is the main usage for of us, developers
[21:51] <mathiaz> so documenting it, the same way pbuilder and sbuild are, could be worth
[21:51] <keescook> mathiaz: yup, it's great.
[21:51] <jdstrand> and the combination of virt-clone, ubuntu-vm-builder and kvm is *awesome*
[21:52] <jdstrand> mathiaz: I think soren was woking on an sbuild-kvm
[21:52] <jdstrand> working
[21:52] <soren> jdstrand: "working" is a bit of an overstatement.
[21:52] <jdstrand> or at least thinking about it :)
[21:52] <soren> Precisely :)
[21:52]  * jdstrand 'thinks' it would be a good idea
[21:53] <soren> I have a few ideas, but they've yet to be translated into actual code.
[21:53] <soren> It's intrepid material.
[21:53] <soren> (if I do it the way, I'm thinking about doing it)
[21:53] <mathiaz> Ok - I think that's all for the Roadmap/ReportingPage review
[21:53] <nealmcb> will there be a jeos iso for hardy 64-bit?  or does vm-builder make the isos not that important?
[21:54] <mathiaz> nealmcb: jeos images are available for hardy IIRC
[21:54] <nijaba> nealmcb: no 64b -virtual kernel AFAIK
[21:54] <nealmcb> for i386, but not 64
[21:54] <jdstrand> ah yes-- iso testing in kvm worked great last week
[21:55] <mathiaz> nijaba: correct - I've asked for a amd64 flavour it was declined by the kernel team
[21:55] <mathiaz> nealmcb: yes - only i386 at the moment
[21:55] <nijaba> mathiaz: reasoning?
[21:55] <mathiaz> nealmcb: nothing will change for hardy
[21:55] <nealmcb> fine - I've always liked the vm-builder better
[21:55] <mathiaz> nijaba: too late in the release cycle
[21:55] <nijaba> mathiaz: ok
[21:56] <mathiaz> [TOPIC] Any other business
[21:56] <MootBot> New Topic:  Any other business
[21:56] <zul> nope
[21:56] <mathiaz> Anyone has come up with a great idea during this meeting ?
[21:56] <nijaba> nealmcb: but what we need is the 64b kernel, even with u-v-b
[21:56] <faulkes-> I'm still waiting on access to our colo to test our iscsi
[21:56] <kirkland> mathiaz: hmm, i had a thought....
[21:56] <faulkes-> I'm hoping for that to happen this week
[21:56] <owh> mathiaz: Just to note that the dovecot bug you asked me to look at I've handed back as it does not appear to relate to hardy.
[21:56] <nealmcb> nijaba: ooh - hmmm...
[21:57] <mathiaz> owh: yop - seen that. Thanks for the investigation
[21:57] <nealmcb> how important is 64 bit for virtualization?
[21:57] <mathiaz> owh: if you want to keep working on it, you'd have to figure out what's wrong in dapper
[21:57] <kirkland> mathiaz: with the 5-a-day push, and hardy beta testing ensuing, would it make sense for you or one of the other core members to bring forward a few high priority hardy server bugs in this meeting?
[21:57] <owh> mathiaz: In my spare life I'll think about it :)
[21:57] <kirkland> mathiaz: and look for volunteers to solve?
[21:58] <mathiaz> kirkland: good suggestion
[21:58] <kirkland> mathiaz: not making this a bug meeting, note.
[21:58] <mathiaz> kirkland: I'll try to compile a list of the high-profile bug for the server team
[21:58] <kirkland> mathiaz: but sift a few to the top, and throw out them out here
[21:58] <mathiaz> kirkland: I'll use the qa-server tag
[21:59] <mathiaz> kirkland: yes - I think it's important to have a new topic about high profile bug the close we get to release
[21:59] <owh> mathiaz: What about a general action point to review the hardy-qa bugs regularly.
[21:59] <mathiaz> owh: I'll update the meeting agenda
[22:00] <jdstrand> mathiaz, kirkland: here is one-- 155947
[22:00] <mathiaz> [ACTION] mathiaz to update the meeting agenda to make sure we review high-profile bugs until release
[22:00] <MootBot> ACTION received:  mathiaz to update the meeting agenda to make sure we review high-profile bugs until release
[22:00] <nealmcb> #155947
[22:00] <mathiaz> bug 155947
[22:00] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 155947 in libnss-ldap "ldap config  causes Ubuntu to hang at a reboot" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/155947
[22:01] <mathiaz> [ACTION] mathiaz to compile a list of high priority bugs for the server team
[22:01] <MootBot> ACTION received:  mathiaz to compile a list of high priority bugs for the server team
[22:01] <kirkland> jdstrand: yep, just that sort of thing
[22:02] <kirkland> without making this meeting a complete bug meeting :-)
[22:02] <mathiaz> [TOPIC] Agree on next meeting date and time.
[22:02] <MootBot> New Topic:  Agree on next meeting date and time.
[22:02] <mathiaz> Same time, same place, next week ?
[22:03] <nijaba> DST comes in next week in europe
[22:03] <nijaba> that will maje the meeting at 2300 CET
[22:03] <nijaba> a bit late...
[22:04] <owh> nijaba: If you make it any earlier, I'll be fast asleep.
[22:04] <mathiaz> nijaba: ok - so I guess can move back the meeting
[22:04]  * owh is at UTC+9
[22:04] <nijaba> argh...
[22:04] <nijaba> ok, then, let's not change anything
[22:04] <owh> Unless of course you don't want my scintillating contributions :)
[22:04] <mathiaz> soren: ^^ ?
[22:04]  * nijaba thinks we need owh 
[22:05]  * sommer likes things that scintillate
[22:06]  * owh gets ready to rub hands to generate some static :)
[22:06] <soren> Let's move it an hour.
[22:06] <soren> That's fine.
[22:06] <mathiaz> soren: 2300 CET for you works ?
[22:06] <mathiaz> soren: we wouldn't move the meeting time
[22:06] <nealmcb> soren: did you read about owh/au time also?
[22:06] <soren> That keeps it at the local time that most of us agreed on back in the day.
[22:07] <soren> nealmcb: No, sorry.
[22:07] <mathiaz> soren: It'd stay at 21:00 UTC
[22:07] <soren> Oh, ok.
[22:07] <soren> Erm... Well, 2300 CET is ok.
[22:07] <soren> I don't sleep anyway.
[22:07]  * nijaba wonders if soren *ever* sleep
[22:07] <soren> So does my wife.
[22:07] <nealmcb> soren is a bot
[22:07] <mathiaz> ok - so next week, same time - 21:00 UTC, same place
[22:08] <owh> nealmcb: A pretty smart one at that :)
[22:08]  * nealmcb nods vigorously
[22:08] <nealmcb> Data with a soul....
[22:08] <mathiaz> Thanks all and shake well Beta to find all the bugs
[22:09] <nijaba> thanks mathiaz
[22:09] <owh> Thanks mathiaz
[22:09] <sommer> later on all
[22:09] <jdstrand> thaks mathiaz!
[22:09] <ivoks> sorry, i fall a sleep
[22:09]  * nijaba signs off singing "shake it shake it, shake it good"
[22:09] <ivoks> bye all :)
[22:10] <mathiaz> #endmeeting
[22:10] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 23:10.
[22:10] <nealmcb> ivoks: nighty night :-)