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cjwatsongood morning06:50
TheMusoGreetings all.06:50
* asac waves06:51
calcopenoffice.org 2.4.0-3ubuntu1 is in hardy now :)06:53
calcwaiting on translate-toolkit to be sync'd06:54
james_wmorning all06:55
dokogood morning06:57
* cjwatson counts on his fingers07:00
cjwatsonI think that's everyone07:00
cjwatsonso good morning everyone; hope you all had a good week while I was on holiday07:00
slangasekmorning :)07:01
cjwatsonthis week, I largely want to do a checkup to ensure that we're on track for release, as there isn't all that long to go07:01
cjwatsonthough before we start, a quick reminder: please can everyone have another look at Daniel's sponsoring overview and make sure you're up to date there07:02
cjwatson(I have a few items myself)07:02
cjwatsonhttps://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+milestone/ubuntu-8.04 is slightly alarmingly long07:03
* calc has quite a few bugs to work on still but didn't milestone them07:04
slangasekyes; even discounting the bugs that are already fix-released07:04
cjwatsonI'm going to go through and make a few assignments there, so that the page sorts by person better07:04
cjwatson(even for cases where it's obvious due to package)07:04
* calc wishes the list had source packages listed07:04
TheMusocalc: Same here. Filtering out fix released bugs would also be nice.07:05
calcTheMuso: yea07:05
cjwatsonasac: there are a lot of firefox bugs on that list; are you on top of them?07:05
slangasekit does seem that people are using the milestone for "everything I'm planning to work on between now and the release", rather than "bugs that are critical to resolve for 8.04" - indeed, I've even seen people make comments in the bugs to this effect when setting the milestone :)  Don't forget that we also have https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/hardy/+bugs as a pool of release-nominated bugs, it would be helpful if bugs that are targets07:07
asaccjwatson: i use milestones to keep everything on radar that would be nice to still fix. most important ones should be done already or fix committed though07:07
calcslangasek: i just moved all of my bugs up to critical instead of milestoning them since i knew that might give you a heart attack ;-)07:08
slangasekasac: can "would be nice" bugs be moved to release nominations + assigned to you?  that leaves them somewhere trackable, while helping to make it clear which bugs are to be considered blockers07:09
calcby the way as far as release-nominated bugs go, is there a way to see all bugs release-nominated or not?07:09
calceg if a bug is nominated for eg dapper but closed in hardy it doesn't appear in the current bug list07:09
asacslangasek: i am lame in using launchpad. i will go through the list and move things that are unlikely to get fixed in time to .107:10
asacis that ok?07:10
calcslangasek: i meant more of is there a way to see all bugs open on a particular package regardless of where they are open07:10
asacslangasek: in general everything that is importance "high" or more is a blocker i'd consider bad to push forward - if that info helps you07:12
slangasekasac: please use release nominations instead of the milestones for bugs that are not obviously blockers for that milestone; it's more practical for release management purposes to escalate bugs from the pool of release-targetted bugs than to work out whether a given bug that's been targetted is a blocker for a non-obvious reason07:13
slangasekasac: do you know about https://bugs.launchpad.net/~asac/+assignedbugs, btw?07:13
slangasekcalc: I don't know of anything along those lines, sorry07:14
calcslangasek: ok07:14
cjwatsonso the milestone list is a bit of a wash (I should have had a look before the meeting and done assignments!), but please also have a look at https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/hardy/+bugs, which is a bit more digestible07:17
cjwatsonasac: bug 162609: as far as hardy's concerned, does that just need ubufox's dependency on apturl to be made versioned?07:18
ubotuLaunchpad bug 162609 in ubufox "plugin finder wizard and apturl don't use the same http proxy" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/16260907:18
asaccjwatson: i think thats already fixed07:20
asaccjwatson: ill check that07:20
cjwatsonevand: there are still quite a few ubiquity bugs in /ubuntu/hardy/+bugs; do we need to draft in some help?07:20
cjwatsonasac: the dependency isn't versioned in the current archive (I checked first)07:20
evandIf we have the help available, it's welcome.  I think I can handle the major bugs though (tzmap remaining issues, miscalculation on size check, neverending ok button when resizing, preseeding keymap not working in ubiquity)07:24
cjwatsonArneGoetje: I noticed a couple of scim bugs on /ubuntu/hardy/+bugs. Do we dodge bug 66104 by using scim-bridge? Is any help needed on bug 199592?07:24
ubotuLaunchpad bug 66104 in scim "[Gutsy] scim: input freezes in various applications under XIM mode" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/6610407:24
ubotuLaunchpad bug 199592 in scim-bridge "scim-bridge crashed with SIGSEGV in scim::Module::unload()" [Medium,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/19959207:24
dokoI uploaded a XIM fix yesterday (but apparently this was for something seen for the java awt bindings)07:25
evandand I think we're quite close on the accessibility issues with ubiquity07:25
ArneGoetjecjwatson: for 66104, yes, we dodge that with scim-bridge... although libX11 has been patched recently... still need to confirm if the bug is now really fixed or not.07:25
brycelooks like most of the remaining milestoned xorg bugs are just "bug clots", where someone posted a generic sounding symptom and everyone with any issue sounding vaguely similar piled on.  I've been keeping an eye on them for a while to see if useful info like backtraces or whatever come up, but guess not.  They are too chaotic to be milestoned really.  I'll take another look and probably ask people to file new bugs if their iss07:25
bryceues still exist.07:25
slangasekbryce: in that case, should/could the bugs be un-milestoned?07:26
TheMusoevand: I am happy to start early tomorrow if it means we can squash the a11y issues more easily.07:26
ArneGoetjecjwatson: for 199592, I still need some help to find out what's going on. The crash happens only once after a new install and then never again...07:26
evandbryce: have you seen bug 194848 yet?07:27
ubotuLaunchpad bug 194848 in xorg-server "hardy alpha 5 closes session after choose keyboard (dup-of: 184651)" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/19484807:27
ubotuLaunchpad bug 184651 in xorg-server "Crash when starting gnome-settings-daemon" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/18465107:27
dokothe scim-bridge SIGSEGV still needs to be reproduced07:27
ArneGoetjecjwatson: and reportedly for a new user account... so maybe something is wrong with the ~/.scim directory or so...07:27
bryceslangasek: yup, or even just closed as fixed, if the original issue was seen to be fixed.07:27
evandTheMuso: ok, I'll work on that fix now.  Got caught up in other bugs.07:27
bryceevand: no I hadn't07:28
bryceoh wait, that's a dupe of 18465107:28
TheMusoevand: Ok whenever, but it still doesn't help solve the orca zombification issues...07:28
evandah, I forgot about that :/07:28
cjwatsondoko: could you help out with the segv? there's what appears to be a partial repro recipe in the bug07:29
bryceevand: ok hadn't seen that one either.  I can talk to timo about it; sounds like he already looked into it07:29
slangasekbryce: if they shouldn't actually be blockers, it's helpful to unmilestone them in the event that there's something in the bug description (or metadata in the forums...) that causes people to congregate around those bugs07:30
cjwatsonbryce: 184651 definitely needs to be a blocker due to the installer impact07:30
dokocjwatson: yes07:30
slangasekotherwise they have a tendency to be reopened and show up on the milestone list :)07:30
cjwatsondoko: thanks07:30
bryceevand: there were a couple gnome-settings-daemon crashes I'd been working on earlier, but this one looks unrelated (Xkb rather than Xrandr).  But I'll look into it.07:30
bryceslangasek: good idea07:31
evandmuch appreciated07:31
cjwatsonArneGoetje: have you seen bug 153521? (it's a rather confused bug, as Steve has pointed out ...)07:32
ubotuLaunchpad bug 153521 in fontconfig "fonts are blurred with subpixel rendering" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/15352107:32
ArneGoetjecjwatson: yes, I've seen that...07:32
ArneGoetjecjwatson: however, the fonts blurring is expected IMHO, because of subpixel redering being turned on... that's what it's all about, isn't it?07:33
ogra_cmpc_isnt that depending on your output ?07:34
ogra_cmpc_s/output/output device/07:34
slangasekArneGoetje: unfortunately since I don't have a 150 dpi display, I've been unable to figure out whether it's an aesthetic question, or a real problem with the display07:34
slangasekif the fonts are really being rendered as we want them to be, then "wontfix" may be appropriate anyway07:34
ArneGoetjeslangasek: you will get that effect on any display with a lower dpi setting.07:35
slangasekArneGoetje: what's "lower dpi" here?07:35
ogra_cmpc_as i learned it, subpixel rendering will look blurry on tubes but make LCDs more crisp07:35
ArneGoetjeslangasek: our default setting is to turn that feature off. if the user want's it he can turn it on by himself.07:35
slangasekArneGoetje: er, no?07:35
slangasekour default setting is that subpixel smoothing is on for LCDs, I thought?07:36
ArneGoetjeslangasek: not on my machine... it uses greyscale by default07:36
dokohmm, these screenshots are neither gnomish or kdeish07:36
ArneGoetjeslangasek: our default dpi setting is 96dpi as opposed to highend displays with >150dpi07:37
slangasekok, confirmed with a blank account, subpixel rendering isn't on by default07:38
slangasekat least according to System -> Preferences -> Appearance -> fonts07:38
ArneGoetjeslangasek: yes, that's what I mean.07:38
slangasekArneGoetje: "our default dpi setting" - so this is still being overridden somewhere in the desktop, rather than using the real dpi value?07:39
ArneGoetjeslangasek: and my recent fontconfig patch will enforce the same setting on the whole system by default.07:39
slangasekI mean, that would explain why someone with a 150 dpi display would consider all fonts <= 12pt to be "small"...07:39
ogra_cmpc_slangasek, xdpyinfo |grep dots07:39
ArneGoetjeslangasek: System -> Preferences -> Appearance -> fonts07:40
ogra_cmpc_check yourself :)07:40
bryceslangasek: once someone has nominated a bug for a release, is there a way to un-nominate it?  I see that long long ago someone nominated bug 34590, but it's a wishlist for DRI on some ancient card that's probably never going to get solved.  It seems to have gotten stuck in "nomination hell" and keeps getting bumped forward releases.07:40
ubotuLaunchpad bug 34590 in xserver-xorg-video-ati "DRI not Automatically Enabled for ATI Rage Mobility P/M - Mach64" [Wishlist,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/3459007:40
slangasekogra_cmpc_: er, that only tells me what the X server thinks, not what fontconfig et al. think07:40
ogra_cmpc_for me that reports an odd value iof 96x77 px07:40
slangasekbryce: there's a hackish way to un-target, yes; remind me about that after the meeting?07:40
ogra_cmpc_fontconfoig is supposed to use what X offers it i though07:40
bryceok will do07:40
cjwatsonslangasek: can you remind me of the rune for that? I encountered another bug that could do with untargetting last night07:41
slangasekcjwatson: it involves marking the bug as either 'invalid' or 'wontfix' (don't remember which) on the release task07:42
cjwatsonugh! does it then come back somewhere else?07:42
ArneGoetjeI'm not how fontconfig is involved in the dpi game though...07:42
slangasekwhich then lets you track it again outside the release, yes :)07:42
cjwatsonwow, you weren't kidding07:42
bryceaha, wontfix does it07:43
Hobbseeslangasek: that doesn't actually remove the nomination, does it?07:43
cjwatsonok, the last thing I wanted people to glance through was http://people.ubuntu.com/~ogasawara/qa-hardy-list-archive/sort-by-package/platform-buglist.html07:43
cjwatsonthis is a *lot* better than it was before I went on holiday07:43
asaci think i know why i tried to not use the confusing nomination feature ;)07:43
cjwatsonif there's anything there that shouldn't be for hardy, please remove the 'qa-hardy-platform' tag from the bug (and explain why in a comment) and it'll go away07:43
slangasekasac: tsss :)07:44
slangasekHobbsee: the nomination doesn't disappear entirely, but since it's "wontfix"ed it falls off any relevant lists07:45
Hobbseeah right07:45
slangasekHobbsee: while also letting you track it again outside the release stream07:45
asac(the flash crashers on that qa list are not in my hands btw)07:45
cjwatsonasac: are they in anyone's hands?07:46
ogra_cmpc_adobes ?07:46
cjwatsonogra_cmpc_: gnash, dude07:46
* ogra_cmpc_ hides his sleepy head07:46
cjwatsonoh, maybe not all gnash07:47
cjwatsonthere are some libflashplayer.so-related bugs, maybe that's what asac was referring to07:47
asacyeah sorry ... that comment was about adobe flash07:48
slangasekhmm, maybe one of those is the bug that's currently preventing me from watching April Fool's videos, perhaps I should look and claim it ;)07:48
asacslangasek: does it crash?07:49
ogra_cmpc_if the joke isnt that there is no video behind theselinks indeed :)07:49
slangasekasac: it doesn't even show up in about:plugins (64-bit w/ nspluginwrapper)07:50
cjwatsonok, sorry ogra07:50
ogra_cmpc_cjwatson, nm07:50
cjwatsonok, any other business beyond bug lists? I'm going to continue looking through those and assigning07:50
asacslangasek: *cough*07:50
slangasekother business - yes07:51
slangasekbefore everybody scatters, I'd like to highlight bug #21060707:51
ubotuLaunchpad bug 210607 in tzdata "Sydney timezone is wrong when set by tzselect, right when set by $TZ (dup-of: 209429)" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/21060707:51
ubotuLaunchpad bug 209429 in tzdata "/etc/timezone does not exist" [Medium,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/20942907:51
calcbug 209783 needs syncing asap also :)07:51
ogra_cmpc_erm, btw these flash bugs are a year old07:51
ubotuLaunchpad bug 209783 in translate-toolkit "UVF exception / sync request for translate-toolkit" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/20978307:51
bryce(bug 197673 is my top priority but have made good progress on it of late and hope to have it closed soonish)07:51
ubotuLaunchpad bug 197673 in gnome-control-center "gnome-display-properties should revert change automatically if not acknowledged" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/19767307:51
asacslangasek: can you check if there is a libflashplayer-alternative.so setup in /usr/lib/xulrunner-addons/plugins?07:52
slangaseker, I mean bug #209429. it's been reasonably unmilestoned because it's not reproducible, but it's possible that this affects many more systems than are currently reporting it because you only notice it when the rules for your TZ change07:52
TheMusoslangasek: I had no problem on my hardy systems over the weekend when us Sydneysiders were previously supposed to change...07:52
slangasekso currently Australia is complaining, but in a few months it'll be some other country, etc. - please check your own systems to verify whether you have an /etc/timezone file07:52
TheMusoI'll keep an eye out for this weekend however, when are are changing.07:52
slangasekand if you don't, please talk to me so that we can try to ferret out the common thread among the affected systems07:53
* asac has /etc/timezone07:53
dokobryce: will there be change with the compiz blacklisting of ati cards?07:53
james_wme too07:53
cjwatsonslangasek: (209783 is in your/release-team's court again, I think)07:53
calci have one07:53
brycedoko, not sure; I'm looking at that one again now07:53
* ogra_cmpc_ too ( on last night classmate image as well as on the installed one that did the DST change fine)07:53
slangasekcjwatson: correct, next on my todo list07:53
calcof course i might have a timezone file because i was messing with it when gnome clock decided to go insane a while back07:54
slangasekasac: nope, no /usr/lib/xulrunner-addons/plugins/libflashplayer-alternative.so - so this is the bug, I guess? :)07:54
brycedoko, looks like there is a patch; it's up to the compiz folks but I'd guess this to be a high priority for hardy07:54
slangasekcalc: right... :)07:55
calcslangasek: has anyone verified if this problem exists just on upgrades, etc?07:55
brycedoko, aha, the compiz folks have already committed it to bzr, so yeah looks like it's on the path to be included already07:55
asacslangasek: sorry, its flashplugin-alternative.so07:55
calcah it looks like it is hard problem to track down07:55
ogra_cmpc_bryce, any idea about the status of the geode breakage ?07:56
slangasekcalc: it's really not "verified" at all at this point, unfortunately - the users who are seeing the bug upgraded from a previous release, but we don't know yet what might have happened in between to cause the file to go missing07:56
calcoh btw i want to let everyone know about this: http://live.gnome.org/GnomeGoals/XDGConfigFolders ;-)07:56
bryceogra_cmpc_: wha?  geode is broke too?07:56
calcslangasek: ah ok07:56
* slangasek runs far away from XDGConfigFolders07:56
ogra_cmpc_bryce, well, the general amd driver breakage07:56
bryceogra_cmpc_: no, we just did a new upload for them (still called -ati) the other week, I hadn't heard anything of problems07:56
ogra_cmpc_ati ?07:56
bryceogra_cmpc_: they plan for another release soon.07:56
bryceer, -amd, sorry07:57
* cjwatson joins slangasek in running away; I think that's a horrible meme we shouldn't assist07:57
calcbasedir FTW! >:-)07:57
ogra_cmpc_ah :)07:57
ogra_cmpc_bryce, great, i just noticed that debian refused to add the fixes needed in xserver-xorg07:57
cjwatson(upstreams can do what they like, but distros moving stuff like that around is bad mojo)07:57
calcthe main problem (i think?) is migrating prefs/data07:57
slangasekasac: oh, haha, I have that file, which points at the alternative, which points to gnash which isn't installed :)07:57
brycethe -amd -> -geode rename is going to save me so many typos ;-)07:57
asacslangasek: hmm07:57
slangasekasac: so that may be a gnash bug for failing to clear the alternative?07:57
ogra_cmpc_heh :)07:57
calccjwatson: yea we shouldn't move it ourselves that would be a large amount of work for little gain07:58
asacslangasek: yes. though i think we --remove-all when no alternative is left07:58
cjwatsonI think GNOME are wasting their time too, but hey ;-)07:58
cjwatson.cache is a decent enough idea, but not the rest IMAO07:58
slangasekasac: but there is an alternative left, I have flashplugin-nonfree installed07:58
slangasekasac: but the symlink is pointing wrong07:58
asacslangasek: is that alternative set to manual mode?07:58
slangasekasac: yes07:59
asacslangasek: how old is your install?07:59
slangasekasac: I don't /think/ it was set by me...07:59
slangasekasac: originated as gutsy prerelease07:59
asacslangasek: if you --remove the last alternative the alternative ends up in manual mode (no idea if that is a bug)08:00
asaci think really old packages didn't do --remove-all in that case08:00
asacbut gnash does it from what i can see ... lets llok at flashplugin-nonfree08:00
slangasekI don't think packages are *supposed* to do --remove-all08:00
slangasekthis is not a bug I've ever heard of before in u-a08:00
slangasekand doesn't match the documentation of --remove in the manpage08:01
slangasekanyway, my flash curiosities needn't be fodder for #u-meeting08:01
cjwatsonI was about to say, we're at time and I need more coffee. :)08:01
asacslangasek: ;)08:02
cjwatsonlooks like other business has mostly dried up, anything else -> #ubuntu-devel; thanks all, adjourned08:02
asacthank you!08:02
brycecjwatson: for next meeting's agenda can you talk about post-release LTS support tasks?08:02
cjwatsonbryce: good idea08:02
james_wthank you08:02
slangasekthanks :)08:03
tjaaltonogra_cmpc_: the patches that are needed for -amd are already in ubuntu, and debian has added them yesterday08:07
ogra_cmpc_oh, great08:07
ogra_cmpc_i had heard the debian maintainer didnt want to apply them at all08:07
ogra_cmpc_good that he changed his mind08:08
tjaaltonhe wanted to wait until it was merged upstream08:09
tjaaltonand now that most of the blockers for xserver 1.4 are fixed it, it can enter testing08:10
tjaaltonand not wait for 1.508:10
ogra_cmpc_given that debian still has half a year or so for the proposed release i found that attitude a bit silly, but well ...08:10
tjaaltonwell, q-funk didn't actually help there..08:11
slangasekpatches applied to which package?08:11
tjaaltonkept pushing all the time and the maintainers got provoked08:12
ogra_cmpc_a set of three patches was needed to make the amd driver work at all08:12
slangasekah, ok08:12
tjaaltonslangasek: yes, those have been in for some time now08:12
ogra_cmpc_he accepted one of the three (which didnt help at all)08:12
slangasekfwiw, I was confused by the references to "the debian maintainer", since xserver-xorg is team-maintained in Debian :)08:13
tjaaltonslangasek: also, I'd like to merge xorg-server with debian when the current version is released, since they've pulled stuff from the upstream 1.4-branch and us, so we could drop 10+ patches from our branch08:13
ogra_cmpc_but yeah, q-funk has massive interest in getting that wor,k, his company lives from selling thin clients that all use geode08:13
slangasek(... and telling me that they were provoked by q-funk also doesn't narrow it down much...)08:13
ogra_cmpc_he couldnt use gutsy because of that breakage08:14
ogra_cmpc_(or etch/lenny)08:14
slangasektjaalton: you can merge it however you like for intrepid, but don't look at me for a freeze exception for what amounts to a rebase ;)08:14
ogra_cmpc_many people in the thin client world are angry with us (even its not our fault, its upstream breakage) because of that08:15
tjaaltonslangasek: ok, so I'll just pull the upstream fixes then?08:15
slangasektjaalton: yes, please08:15
tjaaltonwill do08:15
ogra_cmpc_we should probably not clutter the channel logs here btw and move over to -devel :)08:15
tjaaltonheh yeah08:16
tjaaltonif there's anything left :)08:16
ogra_cmpc_if geode works i'm as happy as i can be :)08:17
tjaaltonI haven't seen q-funk complaining in weeks08:17
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* ogasawara_ waves19:04
pedro_hi hi19:05
henohm, no bot today?19:05
henoanyway, welcome all!19:05
henojcastro: here?19:06
davmor2sorry I'm late :)19:06
bdmurrayHello!  Is it 1900?19:06
pedro_bdmurray: i'm wondering the same...19:07
pedro_probably that's why evolution didn't tell me anything19:07
henowhy didn't anyone stop me? :)19:07
nandoh yeah, we switched time19:07
henodavmor2: but not UTC19:08
nandnow is 20 UTC, right?19:08
* liw starts recruiting people to the Alliance Against DST19:08
henothe meeting page clearly says UTC (and I wrote it ...)19:08
liwso we already had the meeting an hour ago, right19:08
henono, it's an hour from now19:09
bdmurrayThat's what I'd thought.19:09
pedro_it's 18 UTC now19:09
henoseeing that we're all here, shall we go ahead?19:09
liwI'm fine with now19:10
pedro_yeah go for it19:10
henoapologies to those who miss it and are reading this in logs ...19:10
heno[TOPIC] New team member introduction: Chris Gregan, Mobile QA19:11
henoeveryone wave to cgregan!19:11
cgreganHello team19:11
liwcgregan, hi19:11
pedro_welcome cgregan!19:11
davmor2I thought UTC was bst19:11
ogasawara_hi cregan!19:11
IulianHello cgregan19:11
henoChris has been keeping busy getting up to speed with the mobile team19:11
henoHe'll be doing bug management and testing on mobile19:12
davmor2brave man well done :)19:12
pedro_rock on!19:12
henocgregan: you can find QA team members in #ubuntu-bugs and #ubuntu-testing usually19:13
cgreganheno: good to know...I will add them to my, growing, list of irc channels19:13
davmor2cgregan: it only gets bigger :)19:13
henoI don't see jcastro here just yet, so let's take topic #3 for now19:14
heno[TOPIC] Test plan review for RC/Final19:14
henodavmor2: has been updating the Xubuntu and KDE4 plans with nice graphics :)19:15
davmor2I got a boat load to upload to the kde4 one once that is out of the way I'll start up-dating the others now we have nice layout :)19:15
henoI'd like everyone to look over the test plans if you have a chance and fix obvious errors and out-of-dateness19:15
henodavmor2: rock!19:16
cgregandavmor2: Can you send link to plans?19:16
liwcgregan, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/Cases is that what you mean?19:16
cgreganliw: perfect19:16
henocgregan comes from a backgound in mostly proprietary software QA19:17
davmor2https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/Cases/XubuntuDesktop is likely to be the general layout making it easy to see what the desktop should look like and the apps we're describing also.19:17
henocgregan: I'd appreciate your take on these plans19:17
cgreganheno: sure...I'll review and update the team19:18
liwdavmor2, awesome work19:18
davmor2liw: the kde4 was the other layout but we agreed it was easier with images :)19:19
davmor2kde4 is mostly text layout hightlighting things that are important19:19
davmor2to many t's in highlighting :)19:19
henoI think jcastro may have fallen victim to my scheduling gaffe :(19:20
bdmurrayShould have a test case for ubiquity-only?19:21
henolet's cover the upstream bug topic now and I can have a phone call with him later19:21
henobdmurray: is it very different from Live -> ubiquity?19:22
henoWe should make sure both paths get tested indeed19:22
bdmurrayOnly in terms of accessing it.19:22
davmor2bdmurray: you can't really do that with ease because there are several versions of ubiquity each slightly different19:22
henoand it's important to exercise both code paths19:22
henodavmor2: but on a given CD is there much difference in running ubiquity with 'Install only' and Live -> Install?19:24
bdmurrayThe installation process does not change but the amount of memory required for ubiquity only is much less.19:24
henoI'm hesitant about adding a test case for every variation because we quickly get too many19:25
liwheno, I was thinking the same thing19:25
henothough this may be a valid case19:25
davmor2heno: with you no I don't believe so only the differences that are there anyway.  that is that, Xubuntu pulls in the language packs, Kubuntu's is different in the way the map works  etc19:26
bdmurrayPerhaps checking with cjwatson or evand would be best then.19:26
henoa stop-gat might be to ask people to add a tracker comment about which path they used19:26
henowe generally have a fair number of people testing desktop i386 images at least - we should just make sure people use different methods19:27
* heno makes a note for subscription tracking19:28
davmor2heno: I think it would be more prudent to stick ubiquity in it's own section at the top of each live cd case listing the fact that it can be accessed via the menu directly and any differences in the versions19:28
davmor2that covers every aspect then19:29
henoyep, people usually have 3 or so partitioning methods assigned on a given CD and should spread that over start paths19:30
henodavmor2: can you add that?19:30
henobdmurray: thanks for pointing that out19:30
heno[TOPIC] Upstreaming bugs; wiki guides and bugdays19:31
davmor2I'll add it to the list :)  I can throw together some SS of it in action and then upload those as well it shouldn't be too hard.19:31
henoI understand there were some mixed views of the value of the upstream linking yesterday19:31
bdmurrayBy the way https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/Cases/Wubi isn't linked to on the main page.19:32
henobdmurray: it is at the bottom ;)19:32
henoI want to refresh that landing page actually19:32
henoit's not very inviting19:32
bdmurrayOh, I was just looking at the top section.19:32
henoIt should be added, you are right19:33
* heno takes an action to tidy that page up19:33
bdmurrayheno: Do you know what the negative opinions are? I haven't heard them.19:33
davmor2bdmurray: it's on the list we will probably lose winfoss19:33
bdmurraydavmor2: cool, thanks!19:34
pedro_bdmurray: basically seb128 and i were talking that the bugday caused us more noise than anything19:34
pedro_and it'd be nice if it happens during another time of the release process19:34
henoI think the problem is that the upstreaming on gnome bugs was already quite good19:35
bdmurraynoise in what sense? more bugmail or something else?19:35
pedro_yeah lot of bugmail19:35
henoand it's difficult to improve on that for people with less experience19:35
pedro_we already have a lot daily ;-)19:35
henoI think some of the added links may not have been correct19:36
pedro_yeah and then we have to correct them19:37
bdmurrayOkay, both of those points make sense to me.  Are the bug watches useful though?19:37
bdmurrayOr rather bug watches in general useful?19:37
henoI'm also wondering if picking this low hanging fruit isn't really just sidestepping the issue19:37
henofiling bugs upstream well is hard and requires insight into that upstream's bug landscape and culture19:38
henowe should probably rather focus on packages with very few bugs filed/linked upstream19:39
henostart fling/linking those and gaining the experience and connections19:39
bdmurrayI think there are 2 separate issues though. 1) filing bugs upstream and 2) linking bugs upstream.19:39
henobdmurray: you mean link bugs that someone else has already marked as an upstream issue?19:40
bdmurrayfor point 2 I mean adding a bug watch for an existing upstream bug report19:41
henoIMO when you look at a bug with a view to link it upstream you first search the upstream tracker and link if it's found and file if not19:41
bdmurrayWhile it still requires a fair bit of knowledge - it can require less than actually filing it upstream.19:41
henobut both should be part of the same workflow right?19:42
henothe difficult of filing upstream depends a bit on the cost of doing a bad job at it19:42
henoIOW - how upset does upstream get if you file a poor bug or dupe?19:43
bdmurrayYou said "filing bugs upstream well is hard".  I'm just saying that linking is different than filing and isn't as hard.19:43
bdmurraySo while they are part of the same workflow they have different degrees of difficulty.19:44
henoIf they are helpful in correcting you and helping you learn, then nothing is lost by trying, but if it pisses them off it's more tricky19:44
henothis will depend on the upstream and our approach19:44
henobdmurray: I mostly agree. but how many of the linkable bugs are there? is it worth focusing on as an approach19:46
henothe number with links in the comments is one thing; the number that already exist upstream but nobody has pointed out is likely much larger19:47
henobdmurray: do you think we should do more 'upstreaming' bug days, or should we make it a component of bug days generally?19:48
bdmurrayheno: I'm still looking at the numbers as to how many linkable bugs there are.19:48
henobtw, has everyone seen https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+upstreamreport ?19:49
bdmurrayI agree with pedro than now isn't really the right time in the development cycle.  It'd be best done after Hardy releases.19:49
henoa view of how many bugs are filed/linked upstream by package19:49
henobdmurray: I agree, that's a good point19:50
henoperhaps we should do some themes one looking for severe release blocking bugs and escalating those?19:51
bdmurrayI think identifying and documenting how to find the right upstream bug is best and then adding that as a component to bug days makes sense.19:51
henoit would be good to get more eyes on the fresh bugs leading up to release19:51
henook, cool19:52
henofor now though - perhaps we can do a day looking at iso-testing bugs?19:52
bdmurrayIn regards to bug days I think revisiting bugs w/o a package would be a good idea as there may be something critical hiding there.19:52
bdmurrayThat too would be good.19:52
henosounds like a plan19:53
henoany other topic today?19:53
bdmurrayOne thing19:53
bdmurrayOr 2 maybe19:54
jcastrohi guys19:54
jcastrosorry I am late, personal emergency19:54
davmor2no but I would like to say that I'll add the ubiquity images to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/Cases/LiveCDInstall as it seems the most sensible place for it :)19:54
bdmurrayI've started a list of triaging specialities at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BugSquad/Contacts - please add yourself i you aren't already there.19:54
henojcastro: actually, we are early ...19:54
henojcastro: I'll phone you in a few minutes and catch you up19:55
henoPackages/Area of Specialty - bdmurrary - Everything :)19:56
bdmurraygeez! I didn't even write that.19:56
davmor2heno: one thing also what is happening about the LP testing team?19:56
henothe page looks good19:57
henook, I think we're done19:58
henothanks everyone!19:58
cgreganheno: is this the regular time each week?19:58
liwcgregan, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/Meetings has the times19:58
pedro_cgregan: the schedule is at wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/Meetings19:58
henocgregan: except we started an hour early by mistake this week ...19:58
henomy mistake for the record19:59
cgreganliw,pedro_, hino: thanks19:59
pedro_you're welcome19:59
henogoogle calendar is not helping though20:00
jcastroDST wrecks more ubuntu productivity!20:00
heno(yeah I know there is not bot, but it's reflex now)20:00
stgraber_heno: oh, I wondered why you were finishing the meeting :) So my schedule was right20:01
davmor2stgraber_ indeed I thought I was late till I got here an hour early :)20:01
henowe made very good time today though, finished just before start20:03
stgraber_heno: anything important I missed ?20:04
liwstgraber, I can e-mail you the channel log for the meeting, ifyou give me an e-mail address20:04
stgraber_liw: stgraber@ubuntu.com20:05
henostgraber_: we looked at the test cases a bit20:05
henowe will all look them over for up-to-dateness before RC20:05
stgraber_heno: yes, I saw quite a lot of update on the wiki. I'll update the LTSP and Edubuntu ones soon20:06
liwstgraber, sent20:06
stgraber_liw: thanks20:06
=== ubotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 02 Apr 21:00 UTC: Server Team | 09 Apr 21:00 UTC: Server Team | 16 Apr 21:00 UTC: Server Team | 23 Apr 21:00 UTC: Server Team | 30 Apr 21:00 UTC: Server Team
nxvlubotu: ping20:20
ubotuCurrent time in Etc/UTC: April 02 2008, 19:20:27 - Next meeting: Server Team in 1 hour 39 minutes20:21
ubotuSchedule for Etc/UTC: 02 Apr 21:00: Server Team | 09 Apr 21:00: Server Team | 16 Apr 21:00: Server Team | 23 Apr 21:00: Server Team | 30 Apr 21:00: Server Team20:21
nxvl@schedule Lima20:21
ubotuping yourself ;-) really the diodes all down my left side are sore20:21
ubotuSchedule for America/Lima: 02 Apr 16:00: Server Team | 09 Apr 16:00: Server Team | 16 Apr 16:00: Server Team | 23 Apr 16:00: Server Team | 30 Apr 16:00: Server Team20:21
Rinchen==> we're having some issues with the Fridge's event calendar which feeds this channel. Not all meetings may show up until it's fixed.20:30
zul@schedule montreal20:37
ubotuSchedule for America/Montreal: 02 Apr 17:00: Server Team | 09 Apr 17:00: Server Team | 16 Apr 17:00: Server Team | 23 Apr 17:00: Server Team | 30 Apr 17:00: Server Team20:37
=== ubotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Server Team Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 09 Apr 21:00 UTC: Server Team | 16 Apr 21:00 UTC: Server Team | 23 Apr 21:00 UTC: Server Team | 30 Apr 21:00 UTC: Server Team
sommerhey all21:57
nealmcbsommer: sounds like hay fever....21:57
* mathiaz waves and smiles :)21:57
zulno its my coooold21:57
sommerheh, I feel fine21:58
ajmitchah, it's that time of the week21:59
zulhey ajmitch21:59
zuli thought groundhog day was last week ;)21:59
* jdstrand waves22:00
sorenkirkland: That's a new one :)22:01
kirklandsoren: muscles!22:01
mathiazall - right - let's get started22:02
sorenOh, I thought it was a robotic kind of thing.22:02
owhWaking up at 5am for a meeting - blah.22:02
sorenNo mootbot?22:03
mathiazhum... mootbot is still sleeping...22:03
owhI feel the same way :)22:03
sorenWell have to live without it.22:03
mathiaz[TOPIC] #22:03
mathiazReview ACTION points from previous meeting.22:03
mathiazlast week meeting logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/Server/2008032622:03
mathiazowh: status action init script ?22:04
owhYes. No action done. I'll wake up some and action it today.22:04
mathiazowh: great.22:05
owhMy intent is to add the init.d scripts to the existing bug and add that to the debian list.22:05
kirklandmathiaz: I have something to add....22:05
owhOnly so others can have the benefit of them.22:05
owhBring it on.22:06
kirklandmathiaz: I'm attending the Linux Summit in Austin, TX next week, and there's a track on LSB (Linux Standards Base) which is the ISO standard that describes the init scripts (among many other things)22:06
kirklandmathiaz: I'll take some notes, and I'd like to use some of that to seed a discussion for what we can do for Ubuntu Server in that space, potentially as a UDS Prague topic22:06
mathiazkirkland: great22:07
owhThe more I hear about the future of the init scripts, the more I wonder if there is any point in pursuing our current solution.22:07
kirklandmathiaz: i'll report back here either next week, or more probably the next with the highlights22:07
nealmcbbut knowing what it means for lsb compliance is important - thanks kirkland22:07
kirklandowh: i definitely think there's value in pushing patches to debian22:07
mathiazowh: well - the futur of init scripts in ubuntu is probably going to upstart integration22:07
owhAre there others that agree with kirkland?22:08
mathiazowh: I'd say to push current patches, but not develop new ones22:08
owhIs it appropriate to vote on it?22:09
owhI mean, I've done the work, but continuing is going to create work for others.22:09
mathiazowh: well - that's up to them to accept it or not22:09
mathiazowh: the patches are there , just send them22:10
owhWill do.22:10
mathiazowh: and the debian maintainers will decide what they wanna do with it22:10
mathiaz[TOPIC] Wiki pages from help.ubuntu.com22:10
mathiazsommer: did you have a look at the samba wiki pages ?22:11
sommeryep, I've started updating a few, but haven't gotten that far22:11
sommershould have more time toward the end of the week though22:11
sommeralso created a page to link the others by category22:12
sommerit's cruisen22:12
mathiazsommer: great22:13
mathiaz[TOPIC] Review high priority bugs related to the Server Team.22:13
mathiazI haven't had time to compile such a list22:13
mathiazSo anyone has seen of such show-stopper bugs ?22:13
sommerwe could focus no the one brought up last week22:14
sommerthe ldap boot issue22:14
mathiazsommer: I think zul and kirkland are working on it22:14
nijabaNot a show stopper, but would be nice to see the MOTD bug fixed...22:14
mathiaznijaba: I think slangasek is assigned to it22:14
sommeroh, that's cool then22:14
kirklandmathiaz: i am working on it22:15
kirklandmathiaz: i've not been able to precisely reproduce it yet22:15
kirklandbut i am actively multitasking on a vm right now on it ;-)22:15
nijabamathiaz: nope, ubuntu-server-team still is assigned to #15937122:15
mathiaznijaba: right22:16
sorenDo we assign bugs to the team?22:17
mathiazsoren: no - I don't think it's a good idea22:17
sorenMe neither.22:17
mathiazsoren: individual assigment may be better22:17
sorenYEah. Otherwise -- somewhat ironically -- noone will do it.22:17
owhsoren: I suppose subscribing a bug to the team makes us aware of it, but to actually fix it needs an individual.22:18
sorenowh: Right. That's what almost every other teams does.22:18
nealmcbteam effort - I'll do the first byte - a "#" !22:18
nealmcbwho's next?22:19
sorenIIRC the kernel team does it differently.22:19
mathiaznijaba: I'll make the upload22:19
nijabanealmcb: the debdiff is already there22:19
zulsoren: not really22:19
sorenI'll bitch and moan about it.22:19
* nijaba hugs mathiaz22:19
mathiazapart from the ldap bug, anything else ?22:20
mathiazI think the postgresql bug in the installer is fixed22:20
zulthere are some weird apcahe sigsegv when upgrading from gutsy->hardy on amd64 but Im not sure why nor have the hardware22:20
nijabathere is a stupid bash_completion issue that kees and I stumbled upon22:21
sorenbug no.?22:21
mathiaznijaba: yes - I came across that one too22:21
zulsoren: #21056922:21
nijababug #21001322:21
ubotuLaunchpad bug 210013 in bash "bash-completion config replacement prompt on upgrade from gutsy to hardy" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/21001322:21
mathiaznijaba: right - it's a problem with the new bash package and handling in ucf22:23
mathiaznijaba: we have the same issue with samba22:23
mathiazallright - that's all for high-priority bugs22:24
nijabaalso, there is a potential issue with iscsi (see last comment of Bug #192080) not sure soren has seen it.22:25
ubotuLaunchpad bug 192080 in open-iscsi "shutdown fails.. nfs" [Undecided,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/19208022:25
mathiazI'll try to compile a list with the bugs22:25
mathiazOr at least come up with a way to track them22:25
nealmcbis there a report on bugs with lots of duplicates?22:25
sorennijaba: Yeah, I've seen it.22:25
mathiazzul: did you go through some of the bug and milestone them ?22:25
nijabasoren: good :)  I feel better now ;)22:26
mathiaznealmcb: not really - the qa team is marking these22:26
zulmathiaz: I did some but I have to continue22:26
mathiazzul: great - marking bug for the next hardy milestone seems like the way to proceed to keep track of important profile22:26
zulill move it up my todo list22:28
mathiaztalking about bug triagging, I'd like to mention an email sent by brian murray a few minutes ago22:28
mathiazI think we should put one of us as a contact for server related software22:29
owhmathiaz: What about just the bug list email address?22:29
nijabamathiaz: do we need a dev for this?22:30
owhThat would mean more eyeballs.22:30
mathiazowh: which one do you refer to ? ubuntu-server or ubuntu-server-bugs ?22:30
mathiaznijaba: no necessarly22:30
owhThe latter mathiaz22:30
mathiazbrian mentionned in his email:Our thought was it22:31
mathiazwould be a useful guide of who talk to if you need help debugging a22:31
mathiazparticular package or part of Ubuntu.22:31
owhmathiaz: It means that those who are subscribed - arguably already in the bug business - see a request.22:31
mathiazowh: it's more about contacting someone in person22:31
owhmathiaz: But I suspect that it will attract specific support requests from individuals, rather than triagers.22:32
nijabamathiaz: if nobody wants to do it /me raises his hand22:32
zulmathiaz: so like a receptionist?22:32
mathiazowh: well - I don't know what would be the outcome22:33
nijabazul: right...22:33
zulfor the lack of a better term22:33
mathiazzul: probably - I don't exactly what brian is up to with this list22:33
owhmathiaz: I figure that the ubuntu-server-bugs is monitored 24/7, individuals sleep.22:33
sorenThey do?22:33
* nijaba now knows that soren *never* sleeps22:34
owhmathiaz: At the moment that address only gets automatic mail, so requests will stick out.22:34
mathiazBut I think we should have a row that says "Server related software" talk to ...22:34
owhsoren: We're not talking about you :-)22:34
sorenAh :)22:34
mathiazowh: yes - u-s-b is only set to receive bugs from LP22:34
owhmathiaz: Talk to the ubuntu-server team.22:34
zulsoren: go back to sleep ;)22:34
nealmcbwe could refer them to #ubuntu-server22:34
owhYes, the would also work.22:35
kirklandmathiaz: hmm, using a list would change the model from the way it's currently used in https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BugSquad/Contacts22:35
sorenzul: I don't sleep. I idle or wait or something.22:35
owhnealmcb: Our coverage is a little spotty though.22:35
mathiazkirkland: right22:35
kirklandmathiaz: i'm not disagreeing, just pointing it out22:35
mathiazowh: it seems that it's more about individuals22:35
mathiazowh: this is not for a 24/7 support line22:35
nijabaas we said before: distributed responsability = no responsability22:35
nealmcbowh: true, but less spotty than an individual irc nick22:36
zulI guess if its too much for one person then nijaba and I could do it22:36
owhnijaba: The flip side of that is that one individual gets overwhelmed.22:36
owhnealmcb: Yes.22:36
nijabaowh: we'll talk about it when it happens22:36
mathiazzul: well - I don't know if it really takes a lot of time22:36
owhIs there a way to identify U-S team members in #U-S?22:36
zulmore coverage if people do it22:36
zuler...two people do it22:36
mathiazI think someone should talk to bdmurray to know what he is up to22:37
mathiazzul: I'm not sure that coverage is to point of this22:37
nijabamathiaz: you can action me on that point22:37
mathiaz[ACTION] nijaba to talk to bdmurray to figure out what the BugSquad/Contacts wiki page is about22:38
mathiazWell - that's all I have for now22:40
mathiaz[TOPIC] Any other Business22:40
mathiazsomebody wants to add something ?22:40
owhWhat happened to the iscsi testing stuff?22:40
mathiaz^^ has a section about it22:41
nijabalimesurvey: Kees found a few sec issue on it. so we'll be waiting for them to be fixed before being able to host it somewhere22:41
* kirkland waves22:41
kirklandumm, is the meeting still happening?22:43
sorenI don't see it.22:43
sommerI'm still meeting, heh22:43
sorenHeh :)22:43
mathiazjust wondering if someone wants to add  something22:43
* nealmcb cheers22:43
owhOne moment I'm in a room with 117 people, then 113 of them run away :)22:44
sorennealmcb: Wow, you guys missed the coolest part of the meeting. It as awesome!22:44
owhsoren: Was it the bit where you woke up?22:44
nealmcbyou all finished up with the ibex?22:44
sorenowh: iz sekrit.22:44
ajmitchno, the bit where soren promised to fix all outstanding bugs22:44
owhnealmcb: Release is next week :)22:44
zulyou missed it bug #1 was fixed and there was much celebration22:45
ubotuLaunchpad bug 1 in ubuntu "Microsoft has a majority market share" [Critical,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/122:45
ajmitchzul: thanks to jdong...22:45
sorenowh: Not funny.22:45
* owh is sleep deprived. The alarm didn't go off as expected :(22:45
mathiazso - seems that none has anything else to add22:46
mathiaz[TOPIC] #22:46
mathiazAgree on next meeting date and time.22:46
mathiaznext week, same time, same place ?22:46
owhmathiaz: That can't be right, a meeting that finishes early?22:46
owhmathiaz: WFM, Summer Time is over, now I'm UTC+8 :(22:46
nijabathat's because soren fixed all the bugs...22:46
owhCool, that gives me 14 minutes to complete my action point for this meeting :)22:48
mathiazok - next meeting: next week, same time, same place22:48
nealmcband soren fixed all the bugs because he wasn't interrupted on irc for 2 whole minutes!22:48
mathiazthanks all for participating22:48
mathiazand happy beta testing !22:48
nijabathanks mathiaz22:48
sorennealmcb: Sounds like a dream :)22:48
owhThanks for hosting our get together again mathiaz22:49
sommerthanks mathiaz, later all22:49
=== ubotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Server Team Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 09 Apr 21:00 UTC: Server Team | 10 Apr 20:00 UTC: Security Team | 16 Apr 21:00 UTC: Server Team | 23 Apr 21:00 UTC: Server Team | 30 Apr 21:00 UTC: Server Team
=== ubotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 09 Apr 21:00 UTC: Server Team | 10 Apr 20:00 UTC: Security Team | 16 Apr 21:00 UTC: Server Team | 23 Apr 21:00 UTC: Server Team | 30 Apr 21:00 UTC: Server Team

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