[01:57] <bddebian> Heya gang
[01:57] <RAOF> Yo! bddebian !
[01:58] <bddebian> Hi RAOF
[01:59] <emgent> :)
[01:59] <bddebian> Hello emgent
[03:35] <kgoetz> is the maintainer of the ubuntu sugar packages here?
[03:37] <cody-somerville> Jani? No.
[03:37] <cody-somerville> He doesn't usually hang out on IRC
[03:38] <kgoetz> mm ok.
[03:38] <kgoetz> i was hoping to talk to him about making my install work ;)
[03:41] <cody-somerville> :)
[03:41] <cody-somerville> jani@ubuntu.com
[03:43] <kgoetz> i'll let him get to the bug when hes ready. just thought i might be able to pin him about it
[06:05] <jdong> ScottK: bug 209012 has an inappropriate status set, correct?
[06:05] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 209012 in monodevelop "[FFe] Merge monodevelop_1.0+dfsg-1 from Debian(Unstable)" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/209012
[06:53] <warp10> Good morning
[07:05] <dholbach> good morning
[07:07] <warp10> good morning dholbach
[07:08] <dholbach> hi warp10
[08:59] <elmargol> siretart, you there?
[09:12] <\sh> moins
[09:40] <emgent> heya
[09:43] <mok0> k
[09:43] <mok0> k
[09:57] <siretart> elmargol: at work, what's up?
[09:57] <siretart> elmargol: email is the safest way
[09:57] <elmargol> siretart, did you notice that xine is atm broken on hardy?
[09:58] <siretart> elmargol: oh, sorry, is there a bug nr yet?
[09:58] <elmargol> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/xine-lib/+bug/210510
[09:58] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 210510 in xine-lib "[Hardy Heron] Some formats including quicktime (.mov) and m4v stop playing with xine after upgrade" [Undecided,New]
[09:59] <siretart> ah, that one, I'm aware of it
[09:59] <siretart> I'll update the bugreport, thanks
[10:02] <siretart> elmargol: I frightened me. xine is not broken, a demuxer of xine is
[10:02] <emgent> heya siretart :)
[10:03] <siretart> hey emgent
[10:07] <dholbach> congratulations mok0
[10:07] <mok0> dholbach: It's a bit premature to congratulate, I think
[10:08] <mok0> dholbach: unless you know something that I don't :-)
[10:08] <dholbach> mok0: I don't think so :)
[10:10] <warp10> Congrats mok0! :-D
[10:10] <mok0> warp10: :-)
[10:11]  * mok0 is somewhat puzzled
[10:11] <soren> mok0: Yeah, congrats.
[10:12] <mok0> soren: ... and thanks for the +1  :-P
[10:12] <mok0> Ah, now I see my email :-D
[10:13] <mok0> Yay
[10:15] <siretart> elmargol: fix uploaded
[10:18] <james_w> congratulations mok0
[10:18] <mok0> Thanks james_w! I just saw the email a few moments ago!
[10:18] <mok0> Definitely cool
[10:18] <pochu> mok0: congrats :)
[10:19] <mok0> Thanks pochu! I can take care of xtide myself now :-D
[10:19] <pochu> :-)
[10:23] <james_w> who's next then?
[10:28] <\sh> mok0: congrats :)
[10:28] <mok0> Thanks \sh!
[10:30] <elmargol> siretart, thx
[10:50] <mok0> Is gcalctool a calendar??? https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/gcalctool
[10:50] <mok0> I would say calculator
[11:02] <\sh> mok0: hmmm
[11:02] <\sh> mok0: lol
[11:03] <mok0> \sh that package is so buggy it should be removed from hardy
[11:03] <mok0> We can't make a release with a buggy calculator!!
[11:05] <mok0> ... and there are plenty of others available
[11:18] <ScottK2> mok0: Congratulations.
[11:19] <mok0> ScottK2: Thanks! Wouldn't have happened without you!
[11:20] <mok0> ScottK2: Now I have to learn how to use my new powers ;-)
[11:20] <mok0> ScottK2: I'll likely be asking a lot
[11:20] <soren> mok0: Have you used a ppa before?
[11:20] <james_w> s/learn/abuse/ :-)
[11:20] <mok0> Yes, I have a ppa
[11:20] <soren> mok0: Then you'll feel right at home :)
[11:21] <soren> You just upload to upload.ubuntu.com/ instead of ppa.launchpad.net/~username/ubuntu
[11:21] <mok0> soren: and then the packages appear in the queue, I assume?
[11:22] <soren> mok0: Yeah, and get built and all that.
[11:22] <mok0> soren: ... while completely new packages still need an ack from the archive-admin, right?
[11:22] <soren> mok0: Right.
[11:23] <soren> Both binary and source packages.
[11:23] <soren> Which means:
[11:23] <soren> a) if an existing source package starts building an extra binary package, that new binary package needs to be accepted by an admin.
[11:23] <soren> and
[11:24] <soren> b) if you upload a new source package, first the source package needs to be accepted, then it gets built and then the resulting binaries need to be accepted.
[11:24] <mok0> soren: very reasonable
[11:25] <mok0> ... but noone actually checks to see if the application (say) in fact runs on a given platform? I do not have access to all supported platforms
[11:27] <mok0> soren: ^
[11:27] <soren> mok0: No, we rely on users for that.
[11:27] <broonie> Well, people testing the development version will and any testsuites run during the package build will have been run.
[11:28] <soren> mok0: Most arch-specific problems turn up at build time, though.
[11:28] <soren> I think.
[11:28] <soren> :)
[11:28] <mok0> soren: I've seen that happen :-)
[11:29] <soren> Oh, sure, I'm just not entirely sure that *most* arch-specific problems will reveal themselves at build time. I think so, though.
[11:30] <mok0> soren: you are probably right. If it builds, it runs, unless the application does something arch-specific that does not trigger a compile error or something
[11:30] <soren> Right. I just don't have any statistics to back me up, so I should probably be careful with words like "most" :)
[11:30] <mok0> heh
[11:30] <mok0> yes
[11:36] <broonie> A lot of arch-specific problems that don't stop the build will at least generate warnings during build.
[12:10] <tjaalton> Seveaz: hey, falcon 2.0.5 is not in hardy :)
[12:11] <Seveas> tjaalton, there are some issues
[12:11] <tjaalton> Seveas: really? 2.0.4 is broken for me, but .5 works
[12:19] <Hobbsee> boo
[12:19] <Iulian> Hey
[12:25] <RainCT> Hi
[12:25] <siretart> has anyone seen tepsipakki latey?
[12:25] <RainCT> mok0: that was fast, gratz! :)
[12:26] <mok0> Thanks RainCT! Yeah it was fast! I was taken by surprise :-)
[12:26]  * RainCT hadn't even time to answer :)
[12:31] <Hobbsee> siretart: good response, btw
[12:31] <siretart> to what?
[12:31] <Hobbsee> wait.  wrong one.
[12:31]  * Hobbsee meant sistpoty.
[12:31] <Hobbsee> i always get confused with your two name <--> irc nick conversions.
[12:32] <siretart> the stpoty == Stefan Potyra. my name is 'REinhard TARTler' :)
[12:47] <soren> siretart: tepsipakki == tjaalton
[12:47] <siretart> ah
[12:48] <soren> siretart: Just like shawarma == soren. Things change :)
[12:48]  * Hobbsee mumbles about canonical naming
[12:49] <soren> It was (almost) unrelated to my joining Canonical.
[12:49] <soren> It certainly wasn't mandated in any way.
[12:49] <Hobbsee> just the others all seem to do it
[12:50] <soren> At the first sprint I overheard someone say that if a nick wasn't used, you could hijack it. (on freenode)
[12:50] <Hobbsee> ....no?
[12:50] <Hobbsee> you can link to it, etc, though
[12:50] <Hobbsee> i fyou have it registered, you can ghost people off it
[12:50] <soren> I guess if I hadn't joined Canonical, I wouldn't have been at that sprint, and I wouldn't have known, and hence wouldn't have changed, so in a *very* îndirect way, it's because I joined Canonical :)
[12:51] <soren> Hobbsee: If a nick hasn't been used for more than 6 months, you can ask to take it over.
[12:51] <Hobbsee> oh, true
[12:51] <soren> That's what I meant.
[12:51] <Hobbsee> although i would expect that if the master nick was active, they'd say no
[12:51] <soren> It's not like it automatically frees up so that you can just take it over somehow.
[12:52] <soren> Hobbsee: Nope.
[12:52] <soren> Hobbsee: I'm *almost* sure the previous master nick of "soren" was active (not much, though), but "soren" itself hadn't been used for almost two years. It was waay easy taking it over.
[12:53] <Hobbsee> oh, strange
[12:53] <Hobbsee> then again, freenode rules seem to change on who you get, at times
[12:53] <soren> Lots easier than taking over #ubuntu-virt, for instance.
[12:54] <Hobbsee> yeah, well.  erk, channels.
[13:32]  * Hobbsee ponders what to say about till's core dev app
[13:37] <\sh> Hobbsee: I'm biased
[13:39] <\sh> Hobbsee: one the one hand, it would be good to have someone who has a lot of clue about printing to work in main...on the other hand, when you want to be a core-dev you need to be more careful even when you need packages in before FF badly
[13:40] <Hobbsee> well...yeah...
[13:40] <Hobbsee> so, i'm allowed to write that kind of thing?
[13:40] <\sh> Hobbsee: if this is your opinion, too why not :)
[13:41] <Hobbsee> \sh: i can't help wondering if these packages would still have been shoved through, in broken state, if till had *not* been working for canonical though.
[13:42] <Hobbsee> presumably the community devs would have been looking at the work done, and would have rejected it due to the errors it contained, had it been from a community member.
[13:43] <\sh> Hobbsee: well, motus can push packages without reviewing into ubuntus archive...I did that once, because I was really sure that I fixed all warnings, errors etc. from lintian and friends...but normally I go via revu...especially then when I need more then one pair of eyes to look at the package
[13:43] <Hobbsee> \sh: that's different, isn't it?  they've done enough packaging to know how it all works?
[13:43] <Hobbsee> oh wait, till was a MOTU
[13:44] <\sh> Hobbsee: TBH, everyone makes mistakes...e.g. sometimes the copyright stuff is really a problem
[13:44] <Hobbsee> oh, indeed.
[13:44] <Hobbsee> i'd forgotten he was a MOTU for a second there
[13:45] <Hobbsee> \sh: oh, rats.  MC makes the recommendation, then TB acts on their recommendation, right?
[13:45] <soren> Hobbsee: Allowed to write what kind of thing?
[13:46] <Hobbsee> soren: objections in general?
[13:46] <soren> Hobbsee: Why shouldn't you be allowed when Stefan clearly is?
[13:46] <Hobbsee> soren: because i'm hated by various people?
[13:47] <Hobbsee> soren: i don't feel like being told i'm overreacting, when respectfully stating objections again.
[13:47] <Hobbsee> hence, i'm fairly careful in what i write, when it comes to people, and them making questionable judgements.
[13:48] <soren> Well, if you think you're right, go ahead. If people disagree, that's their right, too, surely?
[13:48] <sladen> you don't have to be correct the first time, if it promotes a discussion
[13:49] <crimsun> huh.  I thought Till was already core.
[13:49] <zul> meh..
[13:50] <Hobbsee> sladen: no, they just grill me if they didn't like what i said.
[13:50] <\sh> grmpf
[13:50] <\sh> Hobbsee: sry..I didn't get your last statements..because totem thinks about letting my desktop die when I use strace on it with an .flv file
[13:53] <Hobbsee> \sh: http://pastebin.ca/967443
[13:55] <\sh> Hobbsee: I think when we are not allowed to write or say our valid objections anymore, then the community model of ubuntu in general failed
[13:56] <soren> Noone's barring anyone from saying anything.
[13:56] <\sh> Hobbsee: actually...tbh...we shouldn't make any diff between someone who is doing voluntary work or someone who is freelancing for the company which sponsors the project...
[13:56] <Hobbsee> \sh: we shouldn't, yes.  I'm just wondering if we are...
[13:57] <Hobbsee> as in, we collectively
[13:59] <\sh> Hobbsee: in 2006 it was my call that till went to UDS Paris and talked to pitti because of printing..(while he was still working for mandriva) so, I know he knows a lot of printing stuff and also packaging...(during our dinner he gave me a personal shock that till knew still the line numbers of special stuff inside cups' source, he scared me ;))
[13:59] <soren> It's only natural to consider that fact that we know that these people work on Ubuntu all day long.
[14:01] <Hobbsee> argh.  an envy-ng uvfe.
[14:01] <\sh> soren: regarding his status, he is working for the linuxprintingfoundation...or what the name is
[14:01] <soren> \sh: Right.
[14:02] <soren> Hobbsee: What exactly would you expect people to do if they disagreed with you?
[14:04] <Hobbsee> soren: dunno.  disagree politely, and not flame me to hell about it?  not discuss it in an office block, and then get multiple emails complaining about it, even from people who weren't even there?  Also, i'd appreciate people actually looking at the idea i'd put forth, rather than my actual manner of saying it, if they found that unpallatable.
[14:04] <Hobbsee> the latter part, in particular.
[14:05] <soren> Hobbsee: Er... So you want other people to disregard your tone, because you don't like *their* tone when they don't?
[14:06] <Hobbsee> soren: is it a problem to drop all tone from all mails, and feel that people are trying to do the best they can, and may well have credible ideas, on both sides?
[14:06] <Hobbsee> as in, pick the best possible interpretation, from all sides?
[14:06] <soren> Do you think so?
[14:07] <Hobbsee> i don't, no.
[14:07] <soren> So what's the problem?
[14:07] <Hobbsee> if i'm rude to people, then yes, call me on it.  if i've not done the mail with my rose coloured glasses firmly enough on, then look at what i mean, and don't flame me to hell.
[14:08] <Hobbsee> that's what i'd *like*
[14:09]  * soren is on the phone
[14:09] <crimsun> TBH, just about all of us are rude at some point.  (e.g., I'm a PITA)
[14:09] <Hobbsee> i find it crazy that if i say something with a glass-half-empty approach, people flame me for tone, and not being positive.  yet someone who says *exactly* the same thing, with their rose-coloured glasses on, glass half full, doesn't receive any censure at all, and people actually read the intent of their male.
[14:10] <Hobbsee> now, obviously, i should ensure that i do it with the rose-coloured glasses on, but in the case that i don't, is it *really* productive to ignore the entire mail, and not take anything from it?
[14:10] <soren> Not at all.
[14:11] <Hobbsee> so, why does it happen?
[14:11] <Hobbsee> and why do you think that i now don't speak much, because of that?
[14:11] <soren> Yet, I've certainly seen e-mails that were written in a tone that so thoroughly and consistently invited me to ignore it or act on that instead.
[14:11] <Hobbsee> all of them?
[14:12] <soren> Huh?
[14:12] <soren> No, I've seen e-mail that didn't. I get a *lot* of e-mail.
[14:13] <soren> At some point, if someone consistently sends e-mail in such a tone, I (bloody human as I am) get annoyed as soon as I see that person's name on an e-mail.
[14:13]  * \sh is an asshole from time to time, too...but it's just because you need to be one at certain times...even a CoC doesn't change that
[14:14] <Hobbsee> soren: which is exactly why i don't bother sending mails now, a lot of the time.
[14:14] <Hobbsee> what's done is done.
[14:14] <Hobbsee> i can't change it now, when people have gone into ignore mode.
[14:14] <soren> While being human, I also find myself to be rather reasonable.
[14:15] <soren> If one of those people started to be not quite as testy, I might very well start to reconsider.
[14:15] <Hobbsee> sometimes i wonder why i put effort into ubuntu at all, if everything gets ignored.
[14:15] <soren> It doesn't happen overnight (just like getting to this point didn't)
[14:16] <Hobbsee> no, but it appears to be a one way street, apparently.
[14:17] <soren> I don't know what you're basing that on.
[14:17] <soren> ..but I disagree.
[14:18] <Hobbsee> if you ignore mail, then of course you don't see any good stuff.
[14:19] <crimsun> OTOH, you also avoid a lot of flaming.
[14:20] <Lamego> Hobbsee, some people have a personal orientation in being more noisy blocking/opposing other people participation, that is usually labeled as negative, IMHO you are such kind of person, regardless of the great things you do
[14:21] <Hobbsee> crimsun: this is true.  i'm actually trying to stop that.  and wondering if it's worth it.
[14:22] <crimsun> Hobbsee: well, trying is worth it.  I wouldn't worry about drama much; anytime you put people together, you get it.
[14:22] <Hobbsee> crimsun: just that i don't get taken seriously at all anymore.
[14:23] <Hobbsee> although i'm greatful to see that stefan agreed with my mail, so people should take what i said into consideration, through him.
[14:24] <crimsun> Hobbsee: their seeming failures to accomodate your perspective should not drive you off, though
[14:24] <Hobbsee> crimsun: why?
[14:25] <Hobbsee> if i'm being unproductive, for various reasons, and can't seem to fix that, then what's the point in wasting everyone's time?
[14:25] <Hobbsee> it doesn't matter what i think, if people don't agree with it - it gets discounted.
[14:25] <Hobbsee> and if peopel do agree with it, they say it themselves.
[14:25] <soren> None. (Please note that I don't believe the conditions to be true)
[14:26] <Hobbsee> so unless i'm making uploads, i'ts pretty much worthless to be here, as it's proven that i'm not doing anything usfeul for the team.
[14:26] <crimsun> allow me to play devil's advocate.  If you're a whistle-blower and everyone else turns a blind eye, does it mean you're incorrect?  Does it mean you should stop saing things?
[14:26] <crimsun> saying *
[14:27] <Hobbsee> crimsun: doesn't say anything about correctness, but does say that i should shut up, yes, for the general good of the team.
[14:27] <Hobbsee> ther'es no point consistently fighting, no matter whehtehr you're fighting for something that is right, if the rest of the team has no intention of changing their mind.
[14:27] <Hobbsee> no matter what
[14:27] <soren> Hobbsee: If someone is unproductive beyond repair it's a waste of (everyone's) time (by definition). I'm not saying that you are indeed unproductive beyond repair, though. I'm merely confirming your hypothetical logical implication.
[14:28] <Hobbsee> soren: i'm failing to see, how if someone's contributions get put on an ignore list, how anyone might know if their contributions have turned useful or not, as they don't see it.
[14:28] <Hobbsee> am i missing something?
[14:28] <Hobbsee> or is it not a true ignore list?
[14:28] <soren> Hobbsee: Yes, you are.
[14:28] <Hobbsee> then please tell me what i'm missing
[14:29] <soren> That we're all humans?
[14:29] <soren> For instance: While I tend to try to ignore certain people, I sometimes fail to do so.
[14:29] <soren> Other times I give them a second chance to see if they've changed.
[14:30] <soren> Other times again, someone else tells me something to make me see things from a different perspective.
[14:30] <soren> We work with computers, yes, but we are not computers ourselves. Deal.
[14:30] <cody-somerville> Hobbsee, There seems to be a lot of parallels between a situation I was in with another ubuntu team about a year ago and yours.
[14:32] <Hobbsee> cody-somerville: oh?
[14:34] <soren> Hobbsee: I don't believe, by the way, that I ever mentioned any sort of filter. Every time I ignore someone, it's a conscious decision.
[14:35] <Hobbsee> soren: out of curiousity, hypothetically, how would you go about putting your thoughts about something that clearly doesn't work, into a mail, which would be accepted due to it's rose-coloured glasses.  if something's not working, then the world is *not* all fine and rosy, so trying to pretend it is isn't a great idea.
[14:35] <Hobbsee> right
[14:38] <Hobbsee> this is my great problem, you see.
[14:43] <james_w> it's not an easy one to solve
[14:49] <Hobbsee> soren: there's my attempt at a productive mail.  Take it as you will.
[14:55] <murrayc> protonchris: I just released another glom. 2.6.12. It has another fix for a postgres 8.3 change, so it would be great if it can get in to Hardy.
[15:01] <\sh> soren: we work with humans...the computer is just a tool like a hammer or screwdriver...if I'm shouting at my computer...he won't be pissed and works like expected...people don't
[15:01] <soren> Hobbsee: I try do deal with things constructively. Good or bad.
[15:02] <soren> \sh: Precisely.
[15:02] <pochu> hi RainCT, what do you think about Debian bug #455482? do you think we should keep it, remove it, or wait until someone (you?) writes it in PyGTK?
[15:02] <ubotu> Debian bug 455482 in pyzenity "Please motivate inclusion in Debian" [Serious,Open] http://bugs.debian.org/455482
[15:03] <\sh> the problem here is this: till made a mistake for the first time...the first time he judged by himself the good or bad of this upload..his solution (imho): I need to get the package in, without fixing the bugs, but I still have time to fix them..
[15:05] <\sh> the decision to be made is upon us motus/cores....if till thinks it's allright, then ok...he needs to deal with the questions at some point...which is good...and should go into the decision if he's becoming a core dev or not...if he made a wrong decision in universe/multiverse it's likely to happen that a similiar decision is going to be made for main. But the latter is not Till...Till learns quickly...and if he's not going to become a core dev now, h
[15:06] <Hobbsee> \sh: you got cut off
[15:07] <soren> At "if he's not going to become a core dev now,"
[15:07] <\sh>  he will become one in the near future
[15:08] <\sh> soren: the MOTU team is now more then 3 years old...most of the policies we developed in the last year
[15:08] <soren> \sh: My point exactly.
[15:09] <\sh> regarding other projects...yes, we are young...regarding ubuntu, we are just as old as ubuntu itself ;)
[15:10] <soren> Pretty much, yes. My statements hold true for most of Ubuntu.
[15:20] <mariuz> hello
[15:23] <mariuz> i have an dilemma about an bug that is fixed in LP but is still present when you install the package
[15:24] <mok0> In a watch file, how do I deal with a version that is present in both the directory and the tar file? E.g http://...../foo-1.2/foo-1.2.tar.gz
[15:24] <james_w> mariuz: what's the bug number?
[15:25] <jdong> hmm, where did my theme go?
[15:25] <mariuz> 135695
[15:25] <jdong> is there a known hardy bug where the theme disappears?
[15:25] <james_w> bug 135695
[15:25] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 135695 in php-interbase "FTBFS: depends on php4-dev, which has been removed" [Medium,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/135695
[15:25] <james_w> thanks ubotu
[15:26] <mariuz> the problem is fixed in hardy but in gutsy is still there i mean the php5-interbase package is not installable
[15:26] <mariuz> it depends on the php4 api , yes i know is horrible
[15:27] <james_w> mariuz: ok, you will need to apply for a stable release update, a.k.a. an SRU.
[15:27] <jdong> ah removal of murrine.
[15:28] <james_w> mariuz: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/StableReleaseUpdates
[15:28] <mariuz> ok thanks
[15:28] <jordi> hi
[15:29] <sebner> mok0: congratulations ;) a bit ealier than the 23th ^^
[15:29] <mok0> sebner: yes :-) I am surprised it went so fast!
[15:29] <jordi> I just uploaded OpenTTD's new major release to Debian, and I wonder if/how hard would it be to sneak it in hardy at this point. It'd be good to have compatible network games with the current version during while ubuntu 8.10 gets developed.
[15:31] <mok0> jordi: does it fix major bugs?
[15:34] <nxvl> mok0: congratilations!
[15:34] <jordi> mok0: *shrug*, the main changes are new features, it's not a bugfix release.
[15:34] <nxvl> congratulations*
[15:34] <jordi> but I'm having a look at the changelog
[15:34] <mok0> nxvl: Thanks! :-)
[15:35] <mok0> jordi: then it's a no-go
[15:35] <\sh> jcastro: mail send...I can't because linuxtag :)
[15:35] <pochu> mok0: see any gnome package, their watch file have versioned directories
[15:35] <jcastro> \sh: I appreciate the timely response, thanks!
[15:35] <mok0> pochu: thanks!
[15:35] <jordi> mok0: my biggest concern is people using the current version won't be able to play online with the servers, as they'll have outdated clients
[15:35] <\sh> jcastro: postpone the invitation for octobre ;)
[15:36] <mok0> jordi: the package might go in hardy-backports
[15:37] <mok0> jordi: although I don't know what the policy is for that to happen
[15:37] <mok0> jordi: you mean the servers have changed, so the current version doesn't run anymore?
[15:38] <jordi> mok0: aha, anyway, I just wondered if it'd be not too hard to get in
[15:38] <jordi> if it's a problem, I'm not going to push for it too hard
[15:38] <jordi> mok0: if the public servers at openttd.org run 0.6.0, which they will, 0.5.3 clients won't connect
[15:38] <mok0> .... and when is this upgrade going to happen?
[15:39] <mok0> jordi: ^
[15:41] <jordi> mok0: 0.6.0 was released yesterday, I assume it'll happen in the following weeks
[15:41] <jordi> mok0: this happens all the time with online games: frozen bubble, freeciv, etc.
[15:41] <mok0> Hmm. I'd say that is a bug
[15:41] <jordi> the timing for this release isn't too fortunate then
[15:41] <jordi> mok0: no, it's like trying to install a package compiled for glibc 2.7 on a glibc 2.3 system
[15:42] <jdong> do people really play f-b online?
[15:42] <jordi> the client lacks features the server wants to use in the game
[15:42] <mok0> jordi: you can try to file a bug at Launchpad, with all the facts you've given here, and subscribe the motu-release team. They will decide
[15:42] <jordi> jdong: is there any point playing solo? :)
[15:42] <jordi> jdong: I only play online
[15:42] <jdong> mok0: I think in the case of incompatible network games, a FFe should be attempted
[15:42] <jdong> jordi: thanks for making me feel antisocial ;-)
[15:42] <mok0> jdong: yeah
[15:42] <jordi> jdong: haha
[15:43] <mok0> jdong: jordi first said it was a new feature release
[15:43] <jordi> mok0: yeah, this is the biggest reason for my request; I mean, I come from Debian, there's a pretty tough culture to not allow freeze breaks :P
[15:43] <jordi> mok0: and the new features are a problem to old client users
[15:44] <mok0> jordi: but you need to present it as a bug that the older version will not work shortly
[15:44] <soren> Well, the thing is: You can't just file a sync request and expect it to be done. You need to file a feature freeze exception.
[15:44] <jdong> I think this is a case of "if nothing horribly breaks it's better than freezing the way it is"
[15:44] <jdong> but yeah without a doubt a FFe needs to be filed for this to happen
[15:44] <mok0> jdong: exactly
[15:45] <mok0> jordi: you know what to do?
[15:45] <jordi> I had a look at th wiki
[15:45] <jordi> ugh, changelog diffs
[15:46] <james_w> jordi: how long might it be until they release another incompatible version?
[15:46] <mok0> jordi: just cut'n paste upstream changelog from 0.5.3 to now
[15:47] <jordi> james_w: openttd's release schedule is long
[15:47] <jordi> let me check when 0.5.x was released
[15:48] <jordi> that's another reason I'm trying this
[15:48] <jordi> if they were going to release 0.7 in May it'd be pointless
[15:48] <jordi> openttd (0.5.3-1) unstable; urgency=low
[15:48] <jordi>  -- Jordi Mallach <jordi@debian.org>  Tue, 18 Sep 2007 12:05:28 +0200
[15:48] <james_w> jordi: yeah, that's what I was wondering.
[15:48] <jordi> er
[15:48] <jordi> that was 0.5.3
[15:48] <jordi>  -- Jordi Mallach <jordi@debian.org>  Thu,  8 Mar 2007 15:34:54 +0100
[15:49] <mok0> james_w: but that's not saying they change the protocol at every release
[15:49] <james_w> true
[15:49] <james_w> I think it's probably worthwhile, and the chance of breaking something else is low.
[15:50] <mok0> yes, and the application will apparently be partly broken anyway
[15:50] <mok0> jordi: will it work now? Or only after the upgrade of the servers
[15:51] <jordi> jesus
[15:51] <jordi> http://www.openttd.org/servers.php
[15:51] <jordi> everyone is running 0.6.0 already
[15:51] <jordi> and it was released yesterday
[15:51] <jordi> mok0: I guess it doesn't work anymore *today*
[15:52] <mok0> jordi: go ahead and make your case in a bug report. The release team will likely ask the same questions that we've done here on IRC, so put all that info there
[15:52] <jordi> should I report the bug against openttd, or what?
[15:52] <mok0> jordi: yes
[15:52] <mok0> jordi: Ubuntu -> openttd
[15:54] <mok0> jordi: openttd has ubuntu changes, so you need to ask for a merge
[15:56] <jordi> wtf
[15:56] <jordi> I had no idea
[15:56] <jordi> +  * Merge from Debian unstable (LP: #181738). Remaining Ubuntu changes:
[15:56] <jordi> +    - Add .desktop file.
[15:56] <mok0> jordi: it may just be dependencies or something
[15:57] <jordi> can be discarded, 0.6.0 includes one
[15:58] <mok0> jordi: if you can argue that a straight sync will work on Ubuntu, just do that in the bug comment
[15:58] <mok0> jordi: we want to get rid of as many ubuntu'isms as possible
[15:59] <james_w> jordi: why wtf?
[16:00] <jordi> james_w: I had no idea
[16:00] <jordi> but the added change made sense
[16:00] <jordi> I'm not sure if our desktop file came from the same person
[16:00] <jordi> it's not the same though
[16:00] <james_w> http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=460073
[16:00] <ubotu> Debian bug 460073 in openttd "Add .desktop file" [Minor,Fixed]
[16:01] <james_w> the person who made the change in Ubuntu reported that
[16:01] <jordi> ah, great
[16:01] <james_w> there's a couple of updates in the bug, so that may explain the difference.
[16:01] <james_w> jordi: do you know about the "derivatives" keyword in the PTS?
[16:02] <jordi> no, I don't know how it works
[16:02] <jordi> I regularly look for ubuntu diffs in the pts for some of my packages though
[16:03] <james_w> if you subsribe to that keyword on the PTS then you get a mail when an upload is made in Ubuntu for the package, with the diff attached.
[16:03] <jordi> mm, that's really interesting
[16:03] <jordi> I'll do that
[16:03] <jordi> because the ALSA diff is getting way too big
[16:04] <james_w> yeah, I was just about to say that we could probably use some help reducing that
[16:06] <jordi> I'd want the Ubuntu ALSA people to join the Debian ALSA team, which is suffering from lack of time
[16:07] <james_w> that would be good
[16:07] <james_w> I don't think there is an Ubuntu ALSA team though
[16:08] <james_w> crimsun: you appear to be the Ubuntu ALSA team, is that right?
[16:09] <james_w> jordi: I'd be happy to go through the patches with you some time to sort them out if you would like.
[16:13] <jordi> james_w: that'd be great
[16:14] <james_w> jordi: it's obviously not the best time right now, but after release when we look to merge with Debian again I'll get in touch, does that suit you?
[16:15] <jordi> james_w: totally
[16:15] <jordi> not the best time for me either :)
[16:15] <james_w> where would be the best place to find you?
[16:15] <jordi> I'll always be online in feenode and oftc, but pkg-alsa-devel@lists.alioth.debian.org should be the best place, so Elimar is also in the loop
[16:15] <jordi> he's doing most of the work lately
[16:16] <james_w> ah, ok. I'll note it down so I don't forget
[16:17] <jordi> it's the Maintianer for all the ALSA packages
[16:17] <jordi> hard to miss
[16:18] <james_w> yep, I meant more the fact that I have said I'll do it :-)
[16:21] <jordi> oh
[16:21] <jordi> :)
[16:21] <jordi> ok, so bug was filed
[16:22] <jordi> we'll see
[16:25] <james_w> jordi: thanks for taking an interest
[16:25] <jordi> james_w: no, you really
[16:25] <jordi> I see there are interesting ALSA fixes there
[16:25] <jordi> and minimising diffs is always good
[16:26] <james_w> yeah, I see there are a couple of things you may not want to take as they are pretty Ubuntu specific, and there are some things plucked from upstream, but yes, minimising them would be great.
[17:31] <jordi> james_w: yeah, I was aware some things will stay as diff
[17:31] <jordi> but much of it can be merged
[17:32] <james_w> I'm sure it can. It would be great if we could also come up with a strategy to keep the ubuntu diff easier to manage as well.
[17:32] <james_w> but that's our problem, not yours really.
[17:32] <jordi> yep
[17:32] <james_w> we can help you by discussing new patches though.
[17:33] <jordi> yeah
[17:33] <jordi> I need to go now
[17:33] <jordi> let's talk after hardy
[17:33] <james_w> yep, I'll be in touch.
[17:33] <jordi> good luck, and thanks for the earlier advice!
[17:33] <james_w> thanks :-)
[17:33] <jussio1> Could someone remind me how to check out a svn without the .svn folders?
[17:35] <james_w> jussi01: is it export?
[17:44] <jussio1> james_w: thats sounds right...
[17:48] <jussio1> james_w: thanks :)
[17:50] <james_w> jussi01: no problem
[18:55] <rockstar_> I've got a package from old debian that hasn't been maintained in a few years.  I've taken over maintenance of the project, and am trying to build an initial package for Ubuntu (as an experiment).  Are there any differences in the debian/ files I need to worry about?
[18:56] <woodwizzle_> Looks like there is a new beta of firefox out.
[18:56] <woodwizzle_> Can I update the package on my hardy machine?
[18:56] <Moniker42> another beta of firefox?
[18:56] <jdong> wait patiently for an update?
[18:56] <Moniker42> i simply can't WAIT for the blog posts ¬.¬
[18:57] <jeromeg> Moniker42: then grab it from mozilla.com
[18:57] <jeromeg> extract the tarball in your home directory, and double click on the executable to launch firefox
[18:58] <woodwizzle_> Yeah, but I don't want to have multiple installs of different betas :P
[18:58] <beuno> rockstar_, no differences in a technical sense, no. You might want to take a look at: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuForDebianDevelopers
[18:58] <Moniker42> i was being sarcastic... i'm fed up hearing joe blogg the blogger's opinions on the positioning of the bookmarks toolbar
[18:59] <jeromeg> Moniker42: yep sorry, I got confused between the two nicks
[18:59] <jeromeg> woodwizzle_: then wait for the update ;)
[18:59] <Moniker42> jeromeg, ah - okay. what two nicks did you mean? :)
[18:59] <Moniker42> (other than mine, i mean)
[19:00] <jeromeg> Moniker42: yours and woodwizzle_
[19:00] <jeromeg> sorry :)
[19:00] <Moniker42> np
[19:00] <woodwizzle_> jeromeg: Will there be a package? I thought hardy was in feature freeze and didn't get updates?
[19:01] <jeromeg> woodwizzle_: firefox won't stay in beta forever in hardy, so i guess it will be updated
[19:01] <jeromeg> could a motu upload a package for me in gutsy-proposed ?
[19:02] <jeromeg> the bug is bug 156432
[19:02] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 156432 in zim "Zim freeze when create a link" [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/156432
[19:02] <jeromeg> it has been approved by a memeber of motu-sru
[19:02] <jeromeg> the debdiff is available in the lats comments
[19:11] <jeromeg> please, anyone for my upload ?
[19:13] <sebner> jeromeg: you could also subscribe u-u-s. though it would take longer than asking ^^
[19:14] <jeromeg> sebner: ok, i'll, i was just asking because i was asked to :)
[19:15] <sebner> jeromeg: I read it. this wasn't specific to ask here. just to get a motu uploading it
[19:15] <jeromeg> ok
[19:15] <jeromeg> done :)
[19:15] <sebner> jeromeg: but maybe you keep asking if you don't want to wait too long ^^
[19:15] <jeromeg> :)
[19:19] <DktrKranz> jeromeg, re bug 156432, are there test cases for the other two bugs addressed?
[19:19] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 156432 in zim "Zim freeze when create a link" [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/156432
[19:20] <jeromeg> DktrKranz: for the second one, you just need to move the files in their respective folders
[19:20] <jeromeg> DktrKranz: the links do not get updated in the app for some people, thus leading to a crash
[19:21] <jeromeg> DktrKranz: for the third one, the trayicon becomes unusable for some persons, it does not bring zim back
[19:22] <jeromeg> DktrKranz: the three fixes are in hardy already
[19:22] <DktrKranz> jeromeg, thanks. I'll boot a gutsy box and test it, /me likes SRUs :)
[19:22] <jeromeg> :)
[19:23] <jeromeg> DktrKranz: the two last ones seem to be very architecture dependant, i could not reproduce them
[19:23] <DktrKranz> which arch are you on?
[19:23] <jeromeg> i386
[19:23] <DktrKranz> ah, me too :(
[19:23] <jeromeg> by arch i meant luck/hardware/something else :)
[19:23] <jeromeg> but it does crash for some people
[19:24] <jeromeg> and the aptch fixes it :)
[19:24] <jeromeg> *patch
[19:24] <jeromeg> sorry got to go
[19:24] <jeromeg> see you DktrKranz
[19:24] <DktrKranz> c u :)
[19:25] <slytherin> is midi file playing for anyone?
[19:36] <sebner> heya bddebian
[19:37] <bddebian> Hello sebner
[19:56] <\sh> re
[21:06] <norsetto> hyall
[21:21] <sebner> norsetto: heya :D
[21:21] <norsetto> sebner: gruss
[21:22] <sebner> norsetto: the funny thing is that I took conky from Debian incoming before I noticed your mail :D
[21:22] <norsetto> sebner: faster than light ....
[21:23] <sebner> norsetto: yeah. kapil rocks :D
[21:23] <DktrKranz> or faster than dinstall
[21:23] <DktrKranz> heya norsetto :)
[21:23] <norsetto> DktrKranz: Hola!
[21:24] <sebner> norsetto: in addition. Thanks for the two ACKs :)
[21:24] <norsetto> sebner: ack
[21:25] <sebner> ^^
[21:51] <jdong> ScottK: could we shove those ff3b4 backports through?
[21:52] <sebner> jdong: ffb5 is out. now official :D /me waves xD
[21:52] <jdong> sebner: yep, saw that. Hence why I wanted to shove ff3b4 through
[21:52] <sebner> ^^
[21:53] <jdong> the new one doesn't make the old one any less functional :)
[21:53] <sebner> jdong: but useless work!?
[21:53] <jdong> sebner: there's no work, just the upload of two source packages.
[21:53] <jdong> sebner: all the work has been done
[21:54] <sebner> jdong: ah. k
[21:54] <jdong> sebner: and if we want to validate 3b5 we'd have to go through the 3-4 ACKs and front-porting of patches all over again, which is a lot of work and risk for screwing something up
[21:54] <jdong> so I'd rather shove 3b4 through for now
[21:54] <Moniker42> that's what she said
[21:54] <Moniker42> if "three beta four" is a nickname for some sort of sexual object, anyway.
[21:55] <Moniker42> (a bit tenuous, i admit.)
[21:55] <sebner> hrhr
[21:55] <jdong> Moniker42: I don't know if you want your runtime heap size to not grow anymore ;-)
[21:55] <jdong> but they make pills for that.
[22:20] <sebner> gn8 folks
[22:58] <ScottK> jdong: Maybe tonight
[22:58] <norsetto> g'night all
[22:59] <emgent> hello people
[23:35] <cody-somerville> :/
[23:44] <Dossy> Hi.  What team is responsible for VNC?  the X Swat team?
[23:59] <tonyyarusso> Dossy: I'd guess Desktop, but not sure.