[06:28] <DanaG> Who decided to change the GDM theme?
[06:28] <DanaG> Oh, and is there now a wiki page about it?
[06:28] <DanaG> And has the latest wallpaper been wiki'd?
[07:26] <DanaG> http://troy-sobotka.blogspot.com/2008/03/hardy-heron-wallpaper-fela-kuti-botch.html
[11:54] <afflux> morning. Is this the right place to ask why the murrine theme was removed?
[11:56] <kwwii> afflux: yes it is
[11:57] <kwwii> although first you might want to know that it is included in the default selection (just update your hardy system)
[11:58] <afflux> huh
[11:58] <afflux> I currently have no updates, but I have gnome-default theme (you know, the grey one) because I had human-murrine enabled and the ubuntu-artwork update took it away again
[11:59] <kwwii> there was an update today which has it again
[11:59] <afflux> ah, cool!
[12:00] <afflux> okay, that's all I wanted to know, thank you!
[12:00] <kwwii> np
[14:47] <_MMA_> kwwii: Did you try that make file script?
[14:47] <_MMA_> *makefile
[15:00] <kwwii> _MMA_: no because it us much more than just the one script
[15:00] <kwwii> I tried to run it and then I saw that there are lots of other files I needed to have
[15:00] <kwwii> lots= a few
[15:03] <_MMA_> Well you could always adapt it. Really does make things easy with large edits.
[15:07] <kwwii> yeah, I would like to include it eventually, but yesterday I just wanted to get the package done :p
[15:07] <kwwii> hehe, here is a good bug
[15:07] <kwwii> https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/211740
[15:07] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 211740 in ubuntu-gdm-themes "Hardy: Ubuntu login screen art has brightnes increased" [Undecided,New]
[15:09] <_MMA_> Oh FFS.
[15:09] <_MMA_> kwwii: Oh. And our daily today has the friggin' GDM issue right off the bat.
[15:09] <kwwii> I like quotes like this "which I've seen many people call the best of any Ubuntu release"
[15:10] <kwwii> _MMA_: I am telling you, gdm hates you
[15:10] <kwwii> just accept it and sacrifice a virgin to the gdm god
[15:11] <_MMA_> Naa... I can't even laugh about it atm.
[15:12] <kwwii> the wierd thing is that it is not clear what the problem is
[15:14] <_MMA_> Well Im gonna remove the gtkrc from the GDM theme. That change should hit the next disk. If it doesnt clear up, it's *NOT* a themes gtkrc.
[15:14] <_MMA_> But we'll see.
[15:14] <kwwii> well, it could still be a problem with the one it gets from the desktop
[15:15] <kwwii> I think it is some wierd bug in gdm itself, not the theme
[15:15] <kwwii> what else have you changed in your theme since gutsy?
[15:16] <_MMA_> Its not the desktop one either because that's a constant between the other GNOME themes as they don't have gtkrc's ant the issue would pop there as well.
[15:16] <_MMA_> Not just with 1 or 2 themes.
[15:16] <_MMA_> kwwii: Everything but the gtkrc.
[15:17] <_MMA_> I'm really thinking its how GDM sets an alternative theme.
[15:17] <_MMA_> Some odd combination of issues.
[15:38] <DanaG> http://troy-sobotka.blogspot.com/2008/03/hardy-heron-wallpaper-fela-kuti-botch.html
[15:50] <kwwii> _MMA_: yeah, I thikn it does have something to do with the theme changing mechanism
[15:51] <kwwii> oh man
[15:51] <kwwii> troy_s: give me a break
[15:51] <kwwii> do you take negative pills?
[15:51] <kwwii> I won't even get into it
[15:51] <kwwii> wait a mounumental waste of time
[15:51] <_MMA_> Just got sand in his... Well. You know. ;)
[15:53] <kwwii> no, bitching and complaining and acting superior is easy, actually stepping up and doing something would just be too much - it's so easy to make an excuse
[16:37] <troy_s> Waaaahhhhh
[16:38] <troy_s> Cry me a fucking river.  It's a classic hack job.
[16:44] <kwwii> troy_s: you should/could have mentioned this critic to me early and things would have been worked on
[16:44] <kwwii> in fact, we can still change things although time is short
[16:45] <troy_s> kwwii: I uh... tried.
[16:45] <troy_s> kwwii: In fact, I believe I was quite vocal about it.
[16:45] <kwwii> troy_s: when did you talk to me? this is the first I have heard of it
[16:45] <troy_s> kwwii: As I was with the Gutsy choice.  I have always been straight up in those discussions.
[16:45] <kwwii> in fact, I talked to you about gdm
[16:46] <kwwii> I did not even know you had a blog until now
[16:46] <kwwii> btw. all I am talking about here is the wallpaper and hardy art
[16:47] <troy_s> kwwii:  Shuttleworth and GDM are what they are.  We have already been over that ground.
[16:48] <kwwii> what does that have to do with your wallpaper comments?
[16:48] <troy_s> kwwii: And besides, my shit is pure rubbish.  No one cares.  I just voice my opinion (as has been said here more than once).
[16:49] <kwwii> it would have been really helpful to have known your ideas earlier
[16:49] <troy_s> kwwii: Let me trace the log... hold on.
 yeah, I need to edit the pic to remove the bloody neck and tweak the background a bit to be more monochromatic
 kwwii: Oh fuck
 kwwii: Like uh...
 kwwii: Monochromatic is just plain naff.  I have no idea how to say that any clearer _again_.  Shuttlebutt's _really_ needs to get off that fucking monochromatic binging.
 (its sad that we didn't get the forward on the whole thing to be able to actually do the pattern along paths to round out the whole image.  It would seem less 'lazy', but such is the nature of the last minute.)
[16:49] <kwwii> yes, and I agreed with you
[16:50] <troy_s> kwwii: I _do not_ know what to do.  I get email and try to listen to the new and fresh users.  That's all.
[16:50] <troy_s> kwwii: Unfortunately our little clique still believes it knows better.
[16:50] <kwwii> well, I do not log the channel so I cannot come up with anything I said....anyway
[16:51] <troy_s> kwwii: I was straight up.  I think it was an absolutely idiotic decision (as you can see from the log).
[16:51] <kwwii> I think that being positive and working towards a better future is the way to go, not just harshly criticizing the work of others without doing it directly to their face
[16:51] <troy_s> kwwii: The biggest stumbling point is this hey throw the shit against the wall, wait for the arcane meeting to take place on a whim, then poof -- it happens.
[16:51] <kwwii> and there will never be a case where everyone is totally happy
[16:52] <troy_s> kwwii: You should know that I have chanted not worrying about making everyone happy countless times.
[16:52] <troy_s> kwwii: That isn't the issue.
[16:52] <kwwii> yeah, well, maybe I just don't understand you and never will - that's life
[16:52] <troy_s> kwwii: And you also know that I don't backpeddle.  I was vocal on the choice of walls for Gutsy, and that is straight up.
[16:52] <DanaG> hmm, here's something interesting -- I stuck the Heron on top of one of HP's wallpapers:
[16:53] <DanaG> http://users.csc.calpoly.edu/~dgoyette/hp%20kuti%20heron%20tweaked.png
[16:53] <DanaG> There are scaling artifacts due to me downscaling the background.
[16:53] <DanaG> But I think that looks pretty snazzy.
[16:54] <DanaG> I do like the red on the head a bit better -- it looks like some real birds that have red crest feathers.
[16:54] <_MMA_> Wow. Nice and original. :P
[16:54] <kwwii> I think that troy_s version of the non-red neck is better as well
[16:55] <kwwii> DanaG: that HP background does not fit at all with the heron in my opinion
[16:55] <_MMA_> Not at all.
[16:55] <DanaG> You're right there.
[16:56] <DanaG> Oh yeah, another note:  in the recent changes to the gdm theme -- it went from looking pretty nice to looking washed out.  I joked:  "/me takes his notebook outside and watches the GDM theme get a sunburn"
[16:57] <kwwii> yeah, I will be reducing the whiteness quite a bit
[16:57] <DanaG> Cool.
[16:57] <DanaG> You could probably put it back where it was about 2 package versions ago.
[16:58] <troy_s> DanaG: Powers that be love the status quo.
[16:59] <DanaG> Dang, that's irritating -- when people above you make decisions you consider ugly.
[17:00] <_MMA_> Hahahaha. We all have bosses.
[17:01] <DanaG> Hmm, I just had an idea: take the current wallpaper, replace the heron with the better red-crested one, and make the background semitransparent so users can specify their own main colors for it.
[17:01] <DanaG> It'd have a clear area, with little accents.
[17:01] <troy_s> DanaG: Goal being?
[17:02] <troy_s> DanaG: Please tell me this isn't heading down the 'The problem is brown.' path.
[17:02] <DanaG> It'd let users choose their own background colors.
[17:02] <_MMA_> There's _nothing_ stopping _anyone_ from creating alternative themes for Ubuntu and gettin' them in.
[17:02] <DanaG> It's not brown, per se, but two things: the specific color used, and the contrast between the background and the accents.
[17:02] <kwwii> I bet the orange-yellow-red would look great on a bright teal to pink gradient!
[17:03] <kwwii> :p
[17:03] <DanaG> Eek!
[17:03] <thorwil> more green!
[17:04] <DanaG> I use a bright-orange theme, myself.
[17:04] <troy_s> DanaG: 1) Brown is _massively_ in vogue right now.  2) Brown in Ubuntu has almost always been sub-standard due to monochromaticism and a distinct lack of communication / motif / etc.  See OpenSUSE for an extreme example of the same tripe.
[17:05] <DanaG> I haven't seen {,Open}SuSE lately.  The last I used was 10.1 or 10.2.
[17:05] <DanaG> My mom had described the previous wallpaper (with the copied herons) as looking like "baby puke".
[17:05] <kwwii> I left SUSE after 10 :-)
[17:06] <DanaG> But the Gutsy wallpaper is a nicer shade of brown.
[17:06] <troy_s> DanaG: Go look.  Its monochromatic / green / and worse, suffers from a complete lack of audience and communication.
[17:06] <DanaG> Oh yeah, I remember.... I put 10.3 in a VM for about a day, then killed it.  It was quite bland.
[17:06] <DanaG> Everything up until then was far better.
[17:07] <troy_s> DanaG: Compare with Diana's most excellent work in F7. (F8 back to utter tripe -- the kind of look that our vacuous crowd loves to idolize.)
[17:07] <DanaG> Fedora 7? The hot air balloons?
[17:08] <troy_s> DanaG: Yes.
[17:08] <DanaG> That gives me a mental image of the Cal Poly lab computers -- so much software missing.... like SANE backends for hte scanners they have there.
[17:08] <DanaG> But hot air balloons did give a nice theme.
[17:09] <DanaG> Oh yeah, I do actually use the Nodoka engine, but with a way different gtkrc and metacity:  http://users.csc.calpoly.edu/~dgoyette/screenshot-orange-nodoka.png
[17:10] <troy_s> nodoka works for me.  _MMA_ isn't Nodoka the engine that was causing Cimi fuss?
[17:10] <DanaG> Yeah.
[17:11] <DanaG> I think so.  You could probably (almost) recreate it with the svn Murrine, but I don't have the right .gtkrc for it.
[17:11] <_MMA_> Yeah. Kinda a unneeded fork.
[17:11] <DanaG> s/almost/almost?/
[17:12] <DanaG> The windeco is Tropic without the red button.
[17:14] <troy_s> Tropic!  Long live Viper.
[17:14] <kwwii> LOL
[17:14] <troy_s> Nodoka lessens the heavy outline affliction.  That wins for me.
[17:14] <troy_s> kwwii: AHA YOU REMEMBER.
[17:15] <kwwii> Viper actually told me that he liked some of the stuff I did
[17:15] <kwwii> at which point I got a bit worried
[17:15] <kwwii> :p
[17:15] <troy_s> The most serious blight in most of our FOSS stuff is something that Oxygen avoided last time I saw it -- that nasty 'usable' outline on every icon / interface element.
[17:16] <troy_s> kwwii: Now _that_ is some funny shit.
[17:16] <kwwii> hehe, you like something I did!
[17:16] <nothlit> i don't mind that tango let me uses dark themes, personally, that spec allows everybody to get an icon in and have it 'together'
[17:16] <kwwii> :p
[17:17] <nothlit> beyond that tons of icon artists do their own thing and recreate a huuge spectrum, so :)
[17:17]  * DanaG just had an idea to try the heron on the Tropic wallpaper.
[17:17] <DanaG> Though desaturated.
[17:17]  * kwwii gives DanaG permission
[17:17] <kwwii> and then runs out to get dinner
[17:17] <DanaG> Eeh, color is too different from the orange I now have.
[17:17] <_MMA_> DanaG: Why not try something from scratch?
[17:17] <troy_s> nothlit: But at which point are we going to stop worrying about the utopian pursuit of everything and everyone.  One of the strengths of our culture should be specificity.
[17:17] <thorwil> DanaG: desaturated? try adding an outline
[17:18] <_MMA_> hahahahhaah
[17:18] <andreasn> troy_s: why so much hate all the time?
[17:18] <DanaG> I mean I'd be desaturating the orange.
[17:18] <troy_s> DanaG: Honestly -- go play with some good palette tools first.  Once you have a scheme, adjust the tones accordingly via SVG.
[17:18] <andreasn> give me some love from time to time ;)
[17:18]  * andreasn goes back to work
[17:18] <nothlit> well, i imagine oxygen is quite 'in' atm, if we have enough artists beyond those with the project that have the capability, i'd say we're pretty set
[17:18] <DanaG> I'll have to try it some time, then.
[17:19] <troy_s> andreasn: Why is it that when one tries to actually discuss some of our aesthetic issues on point people start talking hate crimes?
[17:19] <nothlit> but really, creating your own look is most likely going to be a distro project rather than one of tango/oxygen style
[17:20] <andreasn> because I want hugs and free beer of course
[17:20] <thorwil> yes. oxygen uses too many colours for an "own look". but maybe running it through a green and an oarnge filter would make it suitable for suse and ubuntu
[17:20] <DanaG> Have you ever seen the red HP dv6700 series at Best Buy, with their color-matched wallpaper.
[17:20] <DanaG> s/[.]/?/
[17:20] <nothlit> i don't think any sort of group can speak for the 'entire' community
[17:21] <DanaG> It looks cool -- it creates coherence between the wallpaper and the laptop lid.
[17:21] <nothlit> no, but i didn't like that felakuti on hp at all
[17:21] <thorwil> the community is much like anonymous
[17:21] <DanaG> Eeh, now that you mention it, those two (bluegrey and heron) do clash.
[17:21] <troy_s> andreasn: You will easily get free beer from me when we meet in person.  Free beer has nothing to do with the debate.  Your beer will _not_ have an outline however.
[17:22] <andreasn> haha
[17:22] <troy_s> Woo -- look at this.  Chatter in #ubuntu artwork.  That is amazing.  Now we need coz_ to show up.
[17:22] <thorwil> troy_s: it will be brown-orangish, though
[17:22] <troy_s> thorwil: Maybe in a green bottle.
[17:22] <DanaG> Oh yeah, would the color of beer itself look good?
[17:23] <thorwil> DanaG: a beer background might make quite a number of people happy. with little bubbels and foam at top
[17:23] <DanaG> Heh, I just saw my new-message icon in the screenshot, and went to check for a new message... silly me.
[17:25] <_MMA_> troy_s: "Chatter" we obviously have in spades. It's getting people to work together and stick around that's the problem.
[17:26] <DanaG> Hmm, I wonder how this sort of thing would look in brown or orange:  http://www.flickr.com/photos/longzheng/1412301374/sizes/o/in/set-72157602082194372/
[17:26] <DanaG> Eeh.
[17:26] <_MMA_> DanaG: Do you have any original work?
[17:27] <DanaG> I haven't created anything myself, so far.  I've just experimented tweaking random stuff.
[17:27] <DanaG> I don't know what original thing I'd make.
[17:27] <nothlit> lol
[17:27] <nothlit> get out there and just do it :P
[17:27] <_MMA_> (tm)
[17:27] <troy_s> Speaking of which... nothlit how come the Fela Kuti first post to the wiki was regg'd under your handle?
[17:28] <nothlit> probably because lasse and i did some moving
[17:28] <troy_s> Ahh.
[17:28] <troy_s> That makes sense.
[17:29] <troy_s> nothlit: Are you going to the UDS?
[17:30] <nothlit> yes
[17:31] <troy_s> nothlit: Ahh good stuff!
[17:31] <nothlit> have to get a new laptop for it, apparently my folks need the laptop we've got and my tablet's screen is dead so
[17:33] <DanaG> Interesting thing: you can get desktop LCDs with built-in Wacom tablets.
[17:34] <nothlit> cintiqs have been around for like half a decade
[17:34] <nothlit> you can hack one together yourself as well
[17:34] <nothlit> theres instructions on the net and even youtube videos of it
[17:35] <nothlit> tbh, a regular nonscreened tablet is a lot more gestural, but for those with 14+ hour workdays i've read that it lightens fatigue
[17:36] <nothlit> it helps that its just so huge and its there though, always setup
[17:36] <nothlit> kk bbl
[18:31] <savvas> DanaG: something like this? ;)  http://img367.imageshack.us/my.php?image=brownishlw0.png
[18:32] <DanaG> That's kinda' interesting.
[18:32] <savvas> gimp's colourising rules hehe
[18:34] <DanaG> Hmm, it doesn't quite fit with my orange, though -- but then again, I've chosen an orange that perhaps nothing will "go with".
[18:35] <DanaG> It definitely reminds me of a beer bottle, or something, though -- with odd spiky things you wouldn't want in a real bottle.
[18:37]  * DanaG goes off to roam.
[18:37] <DanaG> I'll be back later.
[19:49] <nothlit> interesting, blender doesn't like to start windowed in compiz
[19:50] <_MMA_> nothlit: No. Always goes fullscreen here.
[19:51] <_MMA_> Kinda odd. Noticed it a while ago.
[19:51] <_MMA_> Personally I wouldn't use then both together anyway.
[19:51] <nothlit> if you disable the fullscreen legacy support in the workarounds, or use the -p option it will
[19:52] <nothlit> i wouldn't, but i was just trying to take a quick look through some old files, didn't bother/forgot