Seveas | Seeker`, ? | 00:08 |
---|---|---|
Seeker` | Seveas: Mootbot had disappeared, just wnted to check it was ok to restart it | 00:38 |
=== Jucato_ is now known as Jucato | ||
Hobbsee | greetings | 02:41 |
Pici | Hi | 02:45 |
no0tic | hi | 02:46 |
tonyyarusso | moo | 02:47 |
Seveas | Seeker`, it is | 08:39 |
Seveas | had a spontaneous reboot on that machine | 08:39 |
PriceChild | Most sparse conversation ever. | 08:44 |
ubotu | bazhang called the ops in #ubuntu (Pierro) | 09:30 |
ubotu | Pierro called the ops in #ubuntu (bazhang) | 09:30 |
PriceChild | incoming | 09:45 |
PriceChild | Seveas: Piero_Scaruffi | 09:45 |
Seveas | PriceChild, fun | 09:46 |
Piero_Scaruffi | I am sorry Seveas | 09:46 |
PriceChild | the bantracker has changed.. | 09:48 |
Piero_Scaruffi | bantracker? | 09:48 |
PriceChild | nm, was looking at factoids | 09:48 |
Piero_Scaruffi | so how long are channelbans for? | 09:49 |
Piero_Scaruffi | you guys most have some kind of guidelines but i can't find them on freenode | 09:50 |
PriceChild | !guidelines | Piero_Scaruffi | 09:50 |
ubotu | Piero_Scaruffi: The people here are volunteers, your attitude should reflect that. Answers are not always available. See http://wiki.ubuntu.com/IrcGuidelines | 09:50 |
PriceChild | Piero_Scaruffi: (one moment while I catch up) | 09:50 |
Piero_Scaruffi | ok | 09:50 |
Piero_Scaruffi | i understand the first ban but the second is ackward | 09:51 |
PriceChild | Piero_Scaruffi: you called "!ot | persons_name" -why? | 09:51 |
Piero_Scaruffi | because bazhang called ot for me while i didnt do that much wrong really | 09:51 |
Piero_Scaruffi | but talk offtopic | 09:51 |
PriceChild | right.... | 09:52 |
PriceChild | you call !ot, when someone is offtopic. | 09:52 |
PriceChild | You don't call it because they called it on you because you were offtopic...? | 09:52 |
Piero_Scaruffi | oh sorry ot well he doesnt have a clue about the ubuntu philosophy of tolerance | 09:52 |
Piero_Scaruffi | thats why | 09:52 |
PriceChild | Ubuntu has a philosophy on tolerance? | 09:53 |
Piero_Scaruffi | i got emotional i apologize the first ban was justified for that reason | 09:53 |
Piero_Scaruffi | but the second ban was ackward | 09:53 |
elkbuntu | Piero_Scaruffi, something useful to know is the /topic command, it'll show the channel's topic to you... it usually has useful information in it | 09:53 |
PriceChild | and someone not knowing of a philosophy of tolerance.... isn't being offtopic, so im still sure why you repeatedly called !ot? | 09:54 |
Piero_Scaruffi | i did it 2x maybe 2x | 09:54 |
Piero_Scaruffi | 3x* | 09:54 |
Piero_Scaruffi | ok well | 09:54 |
PriceChild | Piero_Scaruffi: how did you find #ubuntu-nl? Why did you join? | 09:54 |
Piero_Scaruffi | thats all wrong i suppose | 09:54 |
Piero_Scaruffi | i always join there | 09:54 |
Piero_Scaruffi | after the first ban i went in there | 09:55 |
Piero_Scaruffi | i was banned for the behavior in ubuntu | 09:55 |
Piero_Scaruffi | in ubuntu-nl | 09:55 |
Piero_Scaruffi | bit werd though | 09:55 |
PriceChild | Piero_Scaruffi: You say you always join there, when was the last time you joined #ubuntu-nl, before today? | 09:55 |
Piero_Scaruffi | couple of days ago | 09:56 |
Piero_Scaruffi | dont remember exactly | 09:56 |
Piero_Scaruffi | never had any problems there | 09:56 |
Piero_Scaruffi | just my bad luck Seveas is an op there also | 09:56 |
PriceChild | Hmm you do indeed. | 09:57 |
PriceChild | Piero_Scaruffi: So anyway, why do you think you were banned in #ubuntu? | 09:57 |
Piero_Scaruffi | double jeopardy doesnt apply on IRC i suppose | 09:57 |
PriceChild | or do you not mind about being banned there and only want to discuss #ubuntu-nl? | 09:57 |
Piero_Scaruffi | a reason wasnt specified | 09:57 |
Piero_Scaruffi | offtopic with some lame jokes i suppose | 09:58 |
Piero_Scaruffi | and an admin who isnt willing to look into the good of people but bans blindly | 09:58 |
Piero_Scaruffi | immediatly | 09:58 |
Piero_Scaruffi | i am not evil | 09:58 |
Piero_Scaruffi | i can speak dutch there | 09:59 |
PriceChild | Piero_Scaruffi: 'immediately', you don't think you were given warning that you shouldn't be offtopic in #ubuntu? | 09:59 |
Piero_Scaruffi | sometimes i need to ask for help in dutch when my english falls short | 09:59 |
Piero_Scaruffi | he did his job | 09:59 |
Piero_Scaruffi | i mean immediatly he didnt care wether it was a correct ban or not | 09:59 |
Piero_Scaruffi | without hesitation | 10:00 |
PriceChild | Do you ever answer the questions that are asked? | 10:00 |
Piero_Scaruffi | i mean this case he might be right | 10:00 |
Piero_Scaruffi | but it cant be the same for every case | 10:00 |
Piero_Scaruffi | i am trying to answer | 10:00 |
Piero_Scaruffi | like i said i have no problems with the #ubuntu ban its the admins call but the second ban feels dishonest | 10:01 |
PriceChild | that wasn't an answer to the question that was asked.. | 10:01 |
Piero_Scaruffi | warning well yes | 10:01 |
Piero_Scaruffi | a couple | 10:02 |
Piero_Scaruffi | but the guy giving them was very blunt | 10:02 |
PriceChild | lets stop debating the #ubuntu ban then if you "have no problems with" it. | 10:02 |
Piero_Scaruffi | #ubuntu-nl is the ban i feel sad about | 10:02 |
Piero_Scaruffi | now i am totally shut out from any help | 10:03 |
Piero_Scaruffi | and i am a novice user | 10:03 |
PriceChild | This channel doesn't really deal with LoCo channels. However perhaps I can still help. Do you have any clue why you were banned there, can you guess? | 10:03 |
Piero_Scaruffi | so the community thing is something i am not so great at i can better myself and learn if people give me the chance to learn from my mistakes | 10:03 |
PriceChild | Do you feel you have a right to support then, and it is unfair to be shut out? | 10:03 |
Seeker` | Piero_Scaruffi: you can find help on the forums and information on the wiki | 10:03 |
Piero_Scaruffi | i feel i have a right to be part of the community yes | 10:03 |
Piero_Scaruffi | support is voluntary so no i dont have a right on support | 10:04 |
PriceChild | This channel doesn't really deal with LoCo channels. However perhaps I can still help. Do you have any clue why you were banned there, can you guess? | 10:06 |
Piero_Scaruffi | ok thank you for your help PriceChild | 10:06 |
PriceChild | (i have logs) | 10:06 |
Piero_Scaruffi | i was banned there for no specific reason other than the dumbluck that the operator that banned me in #ubuntu is an operator in #ubuntu-nl also | 10:07 |
Piero_Scaruffi | goo | 10:07 |
Piero_Scaruffi | d | 10:07 |
PriceChild | that's not a reason, simply a coincidence | 10:08 |
Seveas | not really a coincidence | 10:08 |
Piero_Scaruffi | i guess the dutch never need to explain there actions sadly this is something i learned from studying the history about the things they did on their colonies they never do explain themselves and just buried the past... sorry i am getting emotional again i better leave now before i make matters worse | 10:08 |
Seveas | first thing he did in that channel was call my nick | 10:09 |
Piero_Scaruffi | thank you again for your help PriceChild | 10:09 |
Seveas | bad way to avoid ops | 10:09 |
PriceChild | Piero_Scaruffi: bye then, have fun. | 10:09 |
Piero_Scaruffi | bye | 10:09 |
Seeker` | that was...odd | 10:09 |
PriceChild | I don't think what he did in #ubuntu-nl deserved it. | 10:09 |
Seveas | 'twas | 10:09 |
PriceChild | I think he deserved it. | 10:09 |
Seveas | the ban in -nl was an extension of the one in #ubuntu | 10:10 |
Seveas | he's been trouble before | 10:10 |
PriceChild | That comment by him just then was shocking. | 10:10 |
Seveas | yeah | 10:10 |
PriceChild | The whole time talking to him, I'm thinking I'm wasting my time as he was blatantly trolling #ubuntu. | 10:12 |
PriceChild | I guess he was just trying to stay on the right side of the edge, get away with a little bit more. | 10:13 |
ubotu | DJones called the ops in #ubuntu (Hurre) | 13:41 |
=== Dave3 is now known as Dave1 | ||
Pici | okay then | 13:42 |
PriceChild | LjL: are those same nicks coming back again and again? | 14:17 |
LjL | PriceChild: PM | 14:18 |
Adys | Not sure its the right place for that, but could someone take care of http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/2279/ ? | 15:07 |
Adys | If theres anyone with deletion power on Brainstorm | 15:08 |
Pici | Adys: This isn't really the right place. You may have better luck asking in #ubuntu-testing | 15:12 |
Adys | aight | 15:12 |
Adys | thanks :) | 15:12 |
Hobbsee | hum. i don't have admin powers for that | 15:12 |
Pici | The about page on the site mentions #ubuntu-testing. | 15:14 |
* Hobbsee was hoping that, as the logins were the same, the admin group would be the same. | 15:14 | |
Hobbsee | either that, or i can't find any admin-ey options | 15:14 |
ubotu | Pici called the ops in #ubuntu-bugs (_Czessi excess flooding) | 15:24 |
Pici | LjL: thank you | 15:27 |
LjL | Pici: as murphy would have it though, he just stopped excess flooding :| | 15:29 |
Pici | -_- | 15:30 |
Seeker` | what is the syntax for redirecting factoids to PM? | 15:54 |
Daviey | Seeker`: seriously? | 15:55 |
Pici | !foo > bar | 15:55 |
jdong | !CoC > Seeker` | 15:55 |
Pici | !usage > Seeker` | 15:55 |
jdong | sorry, you get violated for asking dumb questions ;-) | 15:55 |
Daviey | !violate > Seeker` | 15:55 |
Seeker` | thanks | 15:56 |
Daviey | !np > Seeker` | 15:56 |
Seeker` | The ops call in -uk needs changing I think | 15:56 |
Daviey | Then suggest a change.. :) | 15:57 |
Seeker` | !ops-uk is Ompaul, Mez, jono, popey, Gary, Seeker`, Daviey, PriceChild, X3N | 15:58 |
ubotu | In #ubuntu-ops, Seeker` said: !ops-uk is Ompaul, Mez, jono, popey, Gary, Seeker`, Daviey, PriceChild, X3N | 15:58 |
Seeker` | I'm not sure how to do it channel specific | 15:58 |
stdin | you can do "/msg ubotu ops-#ubuntu-uk is <reply> ...." to get the request forwarded here | 15:58 |
ubotu | In ubotu, Seeker` said: ops-#ubuntu-uk is <reply> Ompaul, Mez, jono, popey, Gary, Seeker`, Daviey, PriceChild, X3N | 15:59 |
Pici | And thus you ping all of those people when you do it. | 16:00 |
Daviey | Seeker`: oi! Alphabetical plz! | 16:00 |
Seeker` | Daviey: Thats the order they appear in the chanserv list | 16:00 |
Seeker` | Pici: Is there any other way of doing it that doesn't ping them? | 16:01 |
Daviey | Seeker`: only if you morph the text so it doesn't fire hilight rules | 16:02 |
Daviey | maybe S33ker`, as a suggestion :) | 16:02 |
LjL | you know what i'd like - and what would probably make me more willing to give GUI help rather than console help | 16:17 |
LjL | something that could track which buttons/menus i click on, and automatically store a list in the clipboard, like "file -> save -> ok" | 16:18 |
LjL | 'cause when i do things in a shell, i can just copy and paste what i've done, while if i need to give GUI advice, i need to look at each button i press, select another window, and type in the name of what i've clicked on | 16:19 |
Pici | I suspect that wouldnt be too tough to do, things like xwininfo exist already. | 16:19 |
LjL | Pici, not quite the same thing... xwininfo takes information from the X server, while what i'm saying needs to know about the *toolkit* you're using (GTK, Qt, etc) | 16:21 |
Pici | hmm | 16:21 |
LjL | Pici: basically, if the toolkit has been designed with the ability to create macros in mind, then it can probably be done, otherwise hm | 16:22 |
LjL | Pici: by the way, you wouldn't know of something like xwininfo which could tell you which *process* owns a window? | 16:22 |
LjL | (i guess xwininfo would do that if the information was available at all, though...) | 16:23 |
LjL | Pici: although to have something toolkit-independent, you can always OCR each thing you click on :) sounds crazy, but it can actually work, it's what Babylon on Windows does to give you dictionary entries for anything you click on (including words in images) | 16:24 |
Pici | LjL: Or for accessability in mind, for screen readers | 16:24 |
LjL | except, we don't quite have decent OCR (even less screen-based OCR) on linux | 16:24 |
* Pici keeps losing ssh connection | 16:24 | |
LjL | Pici: yes. | 16:24 |
=== TheSheep_ is now known as TheSheep | ||
Seeker` | Pici: You should write a note telling you where you put it | 16:26 |
Pici | Ironically, I'm in the middle of submitting a bug about screen hanging when the ssh connection is lost. | 16:26 |
LjL | i've just finished submitting http://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=160370 myself | 16:35 |
ubotu | KDE bug 160370 in general ""Automatic User Information Look Up" can cause lag and excess flood" [Normal,Unconfirmed] | 16:35 |
LjL | (czessi, and me too) | 16:35 |
Pici | bug 211842 | 16:35 |
ubotu | Launchpad bug 211842 in screen "Screen hangs when reattaching after lost ssh connection" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/211842 | 16:35 |
Pici | also: debian 157873 | 16:36 |
ubotu | Debian bug 157873 in screen "screen: Reproducible key sequence causes hard lock" [Important,Open] http://bugs.debian.org/157873 | 16:36 |
LjL | i think i'll report the konversation bug on ubuntu too - it can be made less severe by changing the defaults | 16:36 |
Pici | Hopefully having it open in LP will push someone to get some fixes commited. | 16:36 |
LjL | uhm, either the d-liners have changed nicknames, or it's other folks | 16:37 |
LjL | but no, it's the turks | 16:37 |
Seeker` | Pici: I think I have experienced that screen bug before | 16:39 |
Pici | Seeker`: It happens to me almost every day. | 16:40 |
Seeker` | Pici: I dont drop SSH connections that often :) | 16:41 |
Pici | My isp sucks, I need to call them *again* and complain | 16:41 |
LjL | Pici: how exactly do i do what you did in that bug - i.e. link it to the bug upstream? | 16:42 |
Pici | LjL: find the '+also affects' button | 16:42 |
Pici | Its under the Assigned to header in the table | 16:43 |
LjL | Pici: and given it also affects konversation, i should select "project" or "package/distribution"? | 16:43 |
Pici | LjL: It only appears to let you also affect 1) Projects hosted at LP 2) Distribution Bugtrackers | 16:45 |
LjL | Pici: unsure... see this one for instance (it's exactly the way i'd want to make it) https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/konversation/+bug/60681 - it affects "Konversation (Ubuntu)" but also plain "Konversation", and in this case links to the relevant bug on KDE-bugs | 16:46 |
ubotu | Launchpad bug 60681 in konversation "konversation does not show what is actually sent" [Medium,Confirmed] | 16:46 |
Pici | hn | 16:47 |
Pici | hm rather | 16:47 |
LjL | i think it's a "project" known as "KDE's Konversation" | 16:47 |
Pici | weird | 16:48 |
LjL | Pici: oh, ok, in this case i just had to select "project" and it automatically would link to the right project, and simply asked me the URL to the upstream bugtracker | 16:49 |
LjL | although when i tried that before on another bug, it wouldn't select the right project for me | 16:49 |
LjL | https://bugs.launchpad.net/konversation/+bug/67200 (bug had already been reported in lp) | 16:49 |
ubotu | Launchpad bug 67200 in konversation "[Edgy] v1.0.1 Excess Flood due to /WHO on connect" [Undecided,Fix released] | 16:49 |
LjL | although... they mark it as "fix released", don't they. | 16:50 |
Pici | heh | 16:50 |
Pici | LjL: Thanks, I didnt know that worked. | 16:50 |
Pici | I added the savannah bug # to my bug | 16:50 |
LjL | well perhaps they have already changed the defaults... my ~/.kde is pretty old by now | 16:50 |
LjL | Pici: we should pay more attention to the bug classes in the open week :P | 16:51 |
LjL | but they're boooring | 16:51 |
LjL | bug/lp classes | 16:51 |
stdin | well, looks like vit is getting around the forward, kunbutu (n=vit@190.77.170.192) has joined #kubuntu | 17:03 |
Pici | stdin: yeah, LjL noticed that the other day. | 17:03 |
LjL | stdin: i was wondering if it was the same vit. he certainly flooded, last time. | 17:04 |
LjL | and last time, the nickname was vit too | 17:04 |
LjL | but i didn't ban, just mute during the flood | 17:04 |
stdin | the IP changes, but it's always from the same ISP "CANTV Servicios, Venezuela" | 17:05 |
stdin | "/who n=vit" looks interesting too | 17:05 |
LjL | well the last two of them are in ##unavailable as per the ban | 17:06 |
LjL | [Thu Apr 3 2008] [23:58:58] Join vit has joined this channel (n=vit@190.77.170.192). | 17:06 |
LjL | [Fri Apr 4 2008] [00:25:27] Mode LjL sets mode: +zb %vit!*@* | 17:06 |
LjL | this is the one who flooded and that i muted | 17:07 |
stdin | ini (n=vit@190.74.2.136) has joined #kubuntu < now I'm starting to get annoyed | 17:11 |
LjL | different realnames, only thing in common is the ident and a small part of the IP for now | 17:12 |
LjL | and not even always | 17:12 |
LjL | anyway, i'll ban that. | 17:12 |
stdin | the ISP is always the same, seems like too much of a coincidence to me | 17:13 |
LjL | "usuario" too | 17:14 |
LjL | it's not a coincidence, although they might be zombies rather than a single user | 17:14 |
=== LjL-Temp is now known as LjL | ||
Pici | bitten by that bug again. | 18:08 |
LjL | any konversation users who're already using SVN - upgrade to latest, and in Server::ctcpReply, add a ", LowPriority" parameter to the queue() call. then have fun playing with /queuetuner (maybe you want the "normal" queue to be a bit more aggressive, to get +o and such things fast), and you won't be lagged by CTCP attacks again. | 18:27 |
ubotu | In ubotu, PriceChild said: no ops-#ubuntu-uk is <reply> Help! Ompaul, Mez, jono, popey, Gary, Seeker`, Daviey, PriceChild or X3N | 18:27 |
PriceChild | be quiet ubotu | 18:27 |
PriceChild | done | 18:28 |
LjL | @lart PriceChild | 18:28 |
Seeker` | PriceChild: thanks | 18:29 |
Seeker` | @btlogin | 18:44 |
* Pici headdesks | 18:44 | |
Seeker` | ? | 18:45 |
Pici | Cyborg in #ubuntu | 18:45 |
bringbackblastio | Hello. | 20:48 |
ompaul | bringbackblastio, what can we do for you | 20:48 |
bringbackblastio | hi I would like to pay someone to do something for me. | 20:49 |
ompaul | I think you are in the wrong channel | 20:49 |
LjL | me me! | 20:49 |
LjL | oh. | 20:49 |
ompaul | ohh seems not | 20:49 |
* Seveas pays LjL to shaddap :p | 20:49 | |
* LjL goes back to his corner | 20:49 | |
* ompaul pays Seveas for paying LjL | 20:49 | |
bringbackblastio | i need someone to edit this for me. | 20:50 |
bringbackblastio | http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761558727/Lead.html#bottom | 20:50 |
ompaul | not a hope | 20:50 |
LjL | hmmm lead | 20:51 |
ubotu | In #ubuntu-offtopic, Seveas said: !forget kirby | 20:57 |
ubotu | In #ubuntu-offtopic, noodlesgc said: !noodlesgc is "The Xmoto Master" | 21:08 |
=== Seeker` is now known as not_Seeker` | ||
=== not_Seeker` is now known as Seeker` | ||
saltedlight | hi. i wold like to have an Ubuntu cloak. what are the requirements? | 22:57 |
ompaul | !member | 23:01 |
ubotu | Want to become an Ubuntu member? Look at http://www.ubuntu.com/community/processes/newmember | 23:01 |
ompaul | saltedlight, ^^ that is it | 23:01 |
ompaul | anything else? | 23:01 |
saltedlight | i wuld like to have an Ubuntu cloak... | 23:02 |
ompaul | saltedlight, cloaks are only available to members, sorry I should have siad | 23:02 |
ompaul | said even | 23:02 |
saltedlight | i am a member | 23:02 |
ompaul | now there is a thing | 23:02 |
saltedlight | :) | 23:02 |
ompaul | lp id please | 23:03 |
saltedlight | saltedlight | 23:03 |
ompaul | saltedlight, you have a lp id but you do not have team membership status | 23:05 |
ompaul | please read this http://www.ubuntu.com/community/processes/newmember | 23:05 |
saltedlight | ok. thank's. bye :) | 23:05 |
stdin | can someone 's/2/3/g' on !kde4 | 23:08 |
ompaul | !kde4 | 23:09 |
ubotu | KDE 4.0.2 is the latest major release of the K Desktop Environment. KDE 4.0.2 packages can be found at http://kubuntu.org/announcements/kde-4.0.2.php - More information can be found at http://www.kde.org/announcements/announce-4.0.2.php - Support in #kubuntu-kde4 | 23:09 |
Jucato | !no kde4 is <reply> KDE 4.0.3 is the latest major release of the K Desktop Environment. KDE 4.0.3 packages can be found at http://kubuntu.org/announcements/kde-4.0.3.php - More information can be found at http://www.kde.org/announcements/announce-4.0.3.php - Support in #kubuntu-kde4 | 23:10 |
ubotu | In #ubuntu-ops, Jucato said: !no kde4 is <reply> KDE 4.0.3 is the latest major release of the K Desktop Environment. KDE 4.0.3 packages can be found at http://kubuntu.org/announcements/kde-4.0.3.php - More information can be found at http://www.kde.org/announcements/announce-4.0.3.php - Support in #kubuntu-kde4 | 23:10 |
Jucato | bah! | 23:10 |
ompaul | !no kde4 is <reply> KDE 4.0.3 is the latest major release of the K Desktop Environment. KDE 4.0.3 packages can be found at http://kubuntu.org/announcements/kde-4.0.3.php - More information can be found at http://www.kde.org/announcements/announce-4.0.3.php - Support in #kubuntu-kde4 | 23:10 |
ubotu | I'll remember that ompaul | 23:10 |
Jucato | !no kde4 is <reply> KDE 4.0.3 is the latest major release of the K Desktop Environment. KDE 4.0.3 packages can be found at http://kubuntu.org/announcements/kde-4.0.3.php - More information can be found at http://www.kde.org/announcements/announce-4.0.3.php - Support in #kubuntu-kde4 | 23:10 |
ubotu | I'll remember that Jucato | 23:10 |
Jucato | pfft :P | 23:10 |
ompaul | hhahaha | 23:10 |
ompaul | gotcha | 23:10 |
Jucato | I just forgot to login :) | 23:10 |
ompaul | yeap | 23:16 |
* mneptok bops around to the new B-52's album | 23:28 | |
Seeker` | aren't the B-52's ancient | 23:28 |
mneptok | yeah, and so am i | 23:30 |
mneptok | so get off my lawn! | 23:30 |
mneptok | damn kids. | 23:30 |
Seeker` | mneptok: fair enough :) | 23:31 |
ompaul | mneptok, you would have gotten away with it if it wern't for the pesky kids and that dog ... | 23:33 |
Seeker` | when I was younger | 23:34 |
Seeker` | mneptok: did you have to get up 30 mins before you went to bed, spend 36 hours a day working in t' mine, and pay the owner for the privilege of working there... | 23:35 |
ompaul | Seeker`, you had it handy | 23:37 |
mneptok | when i was your age, any sucroplasm we harvested had to be regurgitated for the queen. | 23:47 |
* nikrud pulls up pant legs before tiptoeing through | 23:53 |
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