xtknightfor Bug 62230 ... how is the video driver autodetected?  i'd like to force certain problematic cards to go to vesa.  this bug has been here for at laest the past three releases00:48
ubotuLaunchpad bug 62230 in xserver-xorg-video-nv "Corrupt graphics on boot with 7800GT/nv" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/6223000:48
xtknightsafe graphics mode works sure but when you alternate install you get a frozen system00:49
xtknightactually even when you regular install you do00:49
slangasektjaalton: well, I do see /two/ new binaries added by vdr... :)01:26
ScottKHe must want you to leave the other one ;-)01:28
CaesarIt seems that when gnome-keyring acts as the SSH agent, it can't cope with loading an RSA1 key01:31
=== evalles_ is now known as effie_jayx
Hobbseejdong: already back, it looks like03:09
jdongHobbsee: magical03:10
jdongHobbsee: err, on gutsy-backports?03:10
Hobbseejdong: oh, meh.03:28
emgentheya Hobbsee :)03:29
Hobbseejdong: i'll actually have to use the LP UI for that :(03:31
jdongHobbsee: aww so it'll take 10 minutes of your time waiting for LP to load?03:32
Hobbseejdong: given back03:34
jdongand if it FTBFSes again, can I get an Ubuntu brown paper bag?03:34
ScottKFlaming?  On a doorstep?03:35
emgentanteater 1.0 beta is out! :)03:40
bddebianScottK: :)03:41
ScottKI knew someone would get it.  I should've figured you'd be the someone.03:41
Hobbseejdong: why does it die?03:46
jdongHobbsee: it should build-dep on bzrtools >= 1.303:47
jdongHobbsee: but Debian didn't do it, I didn't want to diverge to do it, a rebuild would fix it at worst..03:47
jdongHobbsee: this particular FTBFS results when the archive has new bzr, old bzrtools, and tries to build new bzr-builddeb03:48
jdongthat leaves new bzr + old bzrtools in uninstallable state03:48
Hobbseeso you'll need to rebuild bzrtools too, then.03:48
jdongno, bzrtools built fine03:48
jdongit just built a matter of MINUTES after bzr-builddeb tried to build03:49
Hobbseehang on, i thought you said it all died again.03:49
jdongHobbsee: no I said if!03:49
jdonghypothetical :)03:49
Hobbseeoh, right.03:49
Hobbseei'm confused, apparently03:49
* Hobbsee has been dealing with far too much other shit, apparently.03:49
* jdong gives Hobbsee a hug03:51
* Hobbsee hugs jdong back. And you're unfortunate enough to know what a great section of it is about, too.03:51
jdong:( yeah03:53
RAOFHm.  SIGXCPU strikes again.  And it's not banshee-trunk-specific, I've just had rhythmbox do it.03:55
RAOFMaybe it only occurs on battery - I couldn't reproduce yesterday afternoon, and I think the difference was I plugged the lappy in.03:55
jdongRAOF: isn't SIGXCPU used by mono, specifically, the Boehm GC, to signal collection?03:56
jdongcould there be some bug at that level?03:56
RAOFjdong: Except that neither pulse nor rhythmbox are mono apps?03:57
jdongRAOF: oh sorry. you mentioned banshee03:57
RAOFHm.  Rhythmbox _really_ doesn't like pulse dying on it.  1.1GB of memory is not a nice mem usage ;)03:57
RAOFjdong: I think you're right about mono's usage of XCPU.  At least, debugging banshee suggests that you make gdb pass XCPU through.03:59
pleaseandthankyois there a good diet softwares? like for a diabetes guy or a healthy living diet software for person who has heart d eases?04:02
jdongnot the right place to ask.... Please use #ubuntu04:04
lifelesshe just asked in at least channels04:05
tedgpleaseandthankyo: While this isn't the place to ask, the only diet software I know for Linux is "Shrinkingman" -- but I don't believe it is maintained anymore.04:10
tedgpleaseandthankyo: http://debain.org/software/shrinkingman/04:11
=== elkbuntu_ is now known as elkbuntu
=== golddragon24 is now known as golddragon24_
=== golddragon24_ is now known as golddragon24
RAOFFor those playing at home, pulse being killed with SIGXCPU?  Not a on-battery problem.05:38
lamontmeh.  dapper-backports upload of git-core is blocked on cvsps being in universe in dapper.05:50
jdongLaserJock: lovely06:01
jdongerr lamont06:01
jdonglamont: do you have closer connections with the soyuz folks than us?06:01
jdongplease I beg of you or someone, do something about it06:01
jdongI've simply fallen upon deaf ears to fix this several-month-old regression06:01
lamontdoes it have a bug?06:01
lamontnumber that is06:01
lamontjdong: because a bug number would be a major step towards escalating the fix.. esp if said bug was several months old...06:03
jdonglamont: yes it does06:03
ubotuLaunchpad bug 198936 in soyuz "Regression: Backports should ignore main-universe split" [Undecided,New]06:04
jdongnote the lovely lack of any activity or acknowledgement it exists06:04
lamontjdong: I have a couple of things ahead of it (not just pleading for the sync of bind9.4.2-10 (after I upload it...)).  I'll poke someone or 3 about it this week06:05
jdonglamont: thank you so much06:05
lamontjdong: I mean, nfc if it'll have any more effect that your efforts...06:05
=== asac_ is now known as asac
lamonthrm... so do I mark a bug 'fix released' when I upload to debian, or when it's synced into hardy?06:20
RAOFWhen it's sync'd, surely.  You could mark it as 'fix committed' when you upload to Debian, probably :)06:21
lamontnah, it get's "fix committed" when the fix is, uh, committed.  (to the vcs)06:22
LaserJocklamont: well, I suppose the LP ideal would be that it would be Fix Released on a Debian task and probably Fix Committed on an Ubuntu task06:23
slangaseklamont: you put the LP: line in the Debian changelog, and let the sync close the bug ;)06:25
lamontslangasek: did that. :)06:25
slangasekthen let LP take care of the rest?06:25
lamontslangasek: yeah - that was my plan.. the only thing it doesn't take care of is figuring out how to trigger the sync. :-)06:26
lamontbut I'll worry about that after dinstall tomorrow06:26
slangasekah, heh06:26
lamontthe upload is 2 ubuntu bugs, zar0 debian bugs. \o/06:27
LaserJockslangasek: do you think you could push flashplugin-nonfree from the gutsy unapproved queue?06:27
slangasekLaserJock: can you tag the archive admin on duty, please? :)06:32
LaserJockI guess06:33
LaserJockI was just trying to be as quick as possible06:34
LaserJockbut I can sub ubuntu-archive06:34
LaserJockactually I won't, that'd be mean06:36
LaserJockI'll poke in the morning if it's not done06:36
LaserJocknight all06:36
* lamont -> sleep06:37
Hobbseesleep is banned06:38
tjaaltonslangasek: oh right, vdr-plugin-pictures.. totally harmless, it seems :)06:42
dholbachgood morning07:11
warp10Good morning07:14
=== kagou_ is now known as kagou
kagouGood morning07:22
xtknightis there supposed to be a konqueror-kde4-dbgsym package?  i don't see one.  ditto for konqueror-nsplugins-kde4-dbgsym07:31
slangasekkagou: bug #208419> did you ever install libpam-smbpass?07:46
ubotuLaunchpad bug 208419 in pam "Integrate samba password in PAM" [Wishlist,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/20841907:46
slangasekah, apparently not07:46
kagouslangasek, i finally installed libpam-smbpass07:46
xtknightdid it ever work?07:46
slangasekkagou: right - the pam change makes it optional, so that PAM itself continues to work with or without libpam-smbpass installed07:47
kagoubut now i'm having problems with samba share...07:47
kagouso i'm investigating07:47
slangasekkagou: and making libpam-smbpass be installed by default is an additional change to make in support of this, but I want to be darned sure the PAM changes are right first07:48
kagoummm apparently, since i'v installed libpam-smbpasswd i can not enter in my PC from a windows client. An authentification is needed07:50
slangasekwhat do you mean by "enter"?07:51
mdkeBalaamsMiracle: I'm planning to import translations for ubuntu-docs in the next 2 days, time permitting07:53
kagoufrom windows, i browse PC, and when I enter (double-click)  in my PC name (to see shared folders), now an athentification is required07:53
kagoui purge my system and recheck all07:54
mdkeslangasek: is it going to be ok if the final ubuntu-docs upload with imported translations is ready by this weekend (i.e. a couple of days later than the freeze)?07:57
slangasekmdke: yes07:57
mdkeslangasek: thanks07:57
kagouslangasek, i suspect patched pam packages to interfer with samba server08:06
kagoui'm installing a fresh daily image (to ensure that all is clean).08:07
slangasekkagou: with or without libpam-smbpass installed?08:07
slangasekI'd want to see the share config08:09
kagouslangasek, it's the default, installed by samba package08:09
slangasekthe samba package doesn't ship with any shares enabled by default...08:09
kagouindeed, i making share using usershare system (nautilus-share). This way smb.conf is not modified08:10
slangasekok, and is it set to allow anonymous access?08:10
kagouwhat ? smb.conf or usershare folders ?08:11
slangasekthe usershare folder08:11
kagouno, set to authentification08:12
slangasekso where's the bug?08:12
kagouslangasek, i can not enter in my PC (from windows samba browser) to see shares (printer/filders)08:13
kagousorry i must go for 10min08:14
slangasekok, I don't see why you expect this to work currently.  You've said that libpam-smbpass wasn't installed, so no Samba password entry was set up... so why would you expect it to work yet?08:14
kagouseb128, lut. do you have problem on launching gdmsetup. Here it tkae long time to launch, an harddrive have a lot of activity08:44
seb128kagou: hi, no, but we have several report about it being slow on the first run after installation, the harddrive activity is interesting, could you strace it?08:45
kagouslangasek, to resume. On a fresh/clean install/with samba/a folder shared for guest with nautilus-share (usershare). Browsing samba from a windows XP client is done like this : Enter workgroup/see PC/enter PC/see shares/ enter shares. Now that i'v played with pam pached/libpam-smbpass, ica n do browse/entre workgroup/see PC/CAN NOT entre PC08:47
kagouseb128, sure, i'm finishing a fresh install08:47
kagouseb128, a "strace gdmsetup > info" is enough for you ?08:48
Hobbseekagou: erm.  if the folder(s) that you're sharing require authentication, and you're getting a prompt to authenticate....what, exactly, is the problem?08:48
Hobbseekagou: you appear to think that you should not have to authenticate, even though you've set it up so it requires authentication.08:48
kagouHobbsee, i'm getting a prompt to enter in the PC, not in the share08:48
kagouthis is the problem, as i can't see pdf/folder shares08:49
kagouthis is the problem, as i can't see printers/folder shares08:49
Hobbseeyou're trying to connect to a windows box, i assume?08:49
slangasekfrom a windows box, to a Samba server08:50
kagoufrom a windows XP client08:50
Hobbseeoh right08:50
Hobbseekagou: why would you expect to have to have to put in your password at the physical samba share, then?08:51
slangasekkagou: that sounds perfectly normal to me that you would be asked to authenticate when connecting to the server08:51
Hobbseehaving to bash down the server room door, so you can type in a password, so you can pull files from the server room back to your windows machine seems...backwards.08:53
Hobbseewhich appears to be what kagou is saying?08:55
* Hobbsee gives up08:55
xtknighthe just wants to see what shares are broadcast08:55
xtknightinstead of actually getting into a share08:55
xtknightnot sure if you need to auth to do that08:55
slangasekI believe he's saying that he gets a password prompt trying to browse the host from windows08:55
slangasekwhich is normal08:55
Hobbseewell, yes...08:55
kagouslangasek, no it's not normal08:55
Hobbseeah, right.  so that's what he's saying.08:55
slangaseker, but it is...08:56
* mvo waves to xtknight08:56
kagousorry but my english is poor and sometimes i'v difficulty to explain well08:56
xtknightmvo, oh yeah i had another bug to talk to you about08:56
xtknightBug 21254208:56
ubotuLaunchpad bug 212542 in compiz-fusion-plugins-main "Drop type=Utility from 01-animation-defaults.patch" [Low,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/21254208:56
xtknightget my earlier messages?08:57
slangasekkagou: when you try to connect to an SMB server, the server will request credentials from the client even if all you're doing is browsing it - and different shares may be visible depending on the credentials used08:58
slangasekso yes, you will get a password prompt when browsing the host, unless your Windows client already knows credentials to use08:58
kagouslangasek, since today, connecting SMB server do not requier password prompt, and so i can see shares (printers/shared folders)09:00
mvoxtknight: yeah, that one is scheduled for today09:03
xtknightmvo, oh ok i didn't even bother to check the page.  looks like you've got that taken care of, then09:05
xtknighti'm off to get sleep, laer09:05
slangasekkagou: by "since today", do you mean "before today"?09:06
mvothanks xtknight09:06
xtknightmvo, thanks for dealing w/ the bugs, your job seems heftier than mine09:06
kagouslangasek, indeed09:08
slangasekkagou: what's the value of 'map to guest' in /etc/samba/smb.conf?09:09
kagouslangasek, i can't say this now. Let me finish install :)09:11
ogra_cmpcasac, if i dont use dhcp, can it be that NM doesnt show the network at all ?09:20
ogra_cmpc(the wlan i mean)09:20
slytherinogra_cmpc: yes, when you use static ip, NM will pretend as if it doe snot know what the status is. :-)09:21
asacogra_cmpc: if you have a config in interfaces, NM will not manage that device09:22
ogra_cmpcasac, no, thats different09:22
asacogra_cmpc: it will instead assume that you are online (so apps don't come up in offline mode)09:22
ogra_cmpcasac, RichEd doesnt have a dhcp server in his network ... seems he doesnt see his wlan on the cdlassmate09:22
asacogra_cmpc: if the interface is managed, network manager cannot know about dhcp or not dhcp before it actually associates. so its unrelated for sure09:23
asacogra_cmpc: maybe he has a hidden SSID09:23
ogra_cmpcno, he said he doesnt09:23
asacsudo iwlist scan09:23
ogra_cmpc(was my first question as well :) )09:23
kagouslangasek, i'v a meeting. I'll be back in 1 hour09:24
asacogra_cmpc: if manually scanning doesn't show the network its a driver or AP issue09:24
asacbut since the cmpc works in general, i'd guess that its an AP issue for him09:25
ogra_cmpcasac, i would guess APv since i havent seen the cmpc break on wlan at all with hardy yet09:25
asacogra_cmpc: maybe he uses a standard not supported by the cmpc driver?09:25
asaclike abg09:25
ogra_cmpcand had no reports from others either09:25
ogra_cmpcasac, <RichEd> abg ? wtf ?09:27
ogra_cmpcif he does, he doesnt know i guess :)09:28
asacogra_cmpc: my router provides options to select modus "g or b"09:29
asacogra_cmpc: maybe some chipsets do not yet support one of abg09:30
asacthats the only idea i currently have09:30
ogra_cmpci dumped all of that on him ... lets see what comes out09:30
=== davmor2 is now known as davmor2_away
=== ubiq_ is now known as lucid
kagouslangasek, still here ?10:23
slangasekkagou: only barely10:23
kagouslangasek, with a fresh clean install+samba, browsing from a windows client let me see shares on my ubuntu samba server without password10:23
kagoui see "PDF" + "Printers..."10:24
slangasekkagou: this is with 'map to guest = bad user' in /etc/samba/smb.conf?10:24
kagouyes, this is the default in smb.conf10:24
kagounow i will install patched pam + libpam and try if this is changing something10:25
slangasekso the username you've used to log in to the Windows client is one that doesn't exist on the server, right?10:25
slangasekok; in that case, this is the expected behavior.  Yes, please let me know if something changes just by installing the new pam package10:26
kagouslangasek, is there files to save before installing patched pam and libpam-smbpass ?10:26
slangasekthe only files that will be changed are /etc/pam.d/common-auth and /etc/pam.d/common-password10:27
slangasekplease install *just* the patched pam first10:27
slangasekand test10:27
slangasekand then install libpam-smbpass, and test again10:27
kagou3 packages to upgrade...10:28
slangasekI have a more complicated PAM configuration on my own machine rather than the proposed default, but I believe that the tests I've done with the local samba are consistent and correct10:29
kagouslangasek, works the same10:31
slytherincalc: pitti: Does anyone of you mind if I reopen the bug 205923?10:31
ubotuLaunchpad bug 205923 in openoffice.org "openoffice in hardy doesn't build on powerpc" [Critical,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/20592310:31
kagoui install libpam-smbpass10:31
slangasekslytherin: how does that differ from bug #214042?10:34
ubotuLaunchpad bug 214042 in openoffice.org "[Ubuntu] [hardy] OOo FTBFS on powerpc due to timeout" [Critical,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/21404210:34
slytherinslangasek: I didn't log any of those two. The timeout ones seems to be logged yesterday only.10:36
kagouslangasek, seems ok too.10:37
slytherinslangasek: and timeout is the reason I was going to reopen first one. But anyway since calc himself logged another bug and looking into it, I will not intervene. :-)10:37
kagoui add a usershare for guest now10:37
BalaamsMiraclemdke: Thanks for the info. But is there an official schedule after which the translations for all documentation are imported? Like once a month, one every 3 months, once a release?10:38
kagouslangasek, damn seems to work now10:40
kagouslangasek, i wil add new user, use it to share a folder with password10:40
cjwatsonanyone here in the Ubuntu German translators team? I need somebody to approve the typo correction (Standardspache -> Standardsprache) in https://translations.launchpad.net/ubuntu/hardy/+source/debian-installer/+pots/debian-installer/de/61/+translate for bug 19507510:42
ubotuLaunchpad bug 195075 in ubiquity "Typo in german translation of installer" [Low,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/19507510:42
kagouargll, windows have password+user in cache i must find how to empty this10:43
lagai think i've applied twice for the german translators team but i havent been approved yet.. i guess i need to bug them in their irc channel10:43
cjwatsonthe Launchpad translations team tell me that the translator teams are really supposed to be translation moderator teams, and that casual translators should just use suggestions10:45
cjwatsonthe UI isn't clear at the moment10:45
kagouslangasek, i found my bug !10:46
lagaah. ok.10:46
lagacjwatson: how are "suggestions" then merged? by the moderator teams?10:46
cjwatsonI'm told that that's the idea10:46
kagouslangasek, all seems to work great, before i change my password for the first user. After that i can not more see shares10:46
ogra_cmpcjust out of curiosity, does anyone know why installing xfonts-* packages wants to have /lib/modules/$kvers/modules.dep in place ?10:46
cjwatsonI suspect that a number of translator teams don't actually work this way in practice at the moment, though10:46
ogra_cmpcFATAL: Could not load /lib/modules/2.6.24-8-generic/modules.dep: No such file or directory10:47
lagacjwatson: well, i was going to translate a few of "my" apps in rosetta to my native language.. i guess i'll resort to vim then and let rosetta handle other languages10:47
HobbseeTheMuso: looks like the launchpad-integration stuff is broken - conflicting file bewteen liblaunchpad-integration0 and liblaunchpad-integration1.  Please fix.10:47
cjwatsonlaga: don't let me discourage you10:48
cjwatsonif you're doing serious chunks of translation, it's probably more effective to be in the moderator team anyway10:48
HobbseeTheMuso: wait, never mind.  mirror is out of date.10:48
lagacjwatson: no worries, it's just a different choice of UI for me, the translation will end up in the repos anyways.10:49
ogra_cmpcLAGA !10:51
ogra_cmpclaga,        # do not start ltsp-client-core10:51
ogra_cmpc        chroot $ROOT update-rc.d -f ltsp-client-core remove || true10:51
lagai guess i broke something.10:51
ogra_cmpclaga, could you move that and the following update-rc.d commands inside the if statement ?10:52
lagaogra_cmpc: yes. sorry :/10:52
ogra_cmpcso it doesnt get executed on normal ltsp ... its somewhat fatal to not have ltsp-client-core starting :)10:52
kagouslangasek, bring back the "old" password, and all is ok10:53
slangasekkagou: what "first user"?  At this point, I don't think this has anything at all to do with the pam changes; either your expectations for Samba are at odds with the intended behavior, or there's a bug in Samba, either way it doesn't correlate with the PAM change10:53
ogra_cmpcsorry, i should have spotted that the fi sits to far up10:53
kagoufirst user ->user created on hardy installation10:53
stgraberogra_cmpc: is that bug 214481 ?10:54
ubotuLaunchpad bug 214481 in ltsp "[hardy] ltsp-build-client builds incomplete filesystem" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/21448110:54
lagaogra_cmpc: just a debdiff this time? easier for you :)10:54
ogra_cmpclaga, sure10:54
ogra_cmpcstgraber, right, looks like it10:54
ogra_cmpclaga, ^^^10:55
slangaseklaga, ogra_cmpc: could you not use update-rc.d -f, which will be completely undone by any upgrades to the ltsp-client-core package? :)10:55
kagouslangasek, should I  report this bug to samba10:55
slangasekkagou: if you think there's a bug, yes.10:55
lagaslangasek: what do you suggest?10:55
slangasekkagou: in the meantime, I'm off to bed10:56
lagaslangasek: deleting the init script?10:56
ogra_cmpcslangasek, well, thst the mythbuntu plugin doing that, i.d actually appreciate to have ltsp-client-core starting on ltsp :) but i'm sure laga will take it into account10:56
slangaseklaga: I don't think there's really a proper way to do that to another package's init script10:56
lagaslangasek: echo "exit 0" >> /etc/init.d/ltsp-client-core ;)10:57
kagouslangasek, thank you for your time, i will remove pam patched and libpam-smb to test if this bug i sstill here. cya10:57
ogra_cmpclaga, move it to K10:57
cjwatsonlaga: the system is designed so that you must get the other package to cooperate, rather than non-consensually fiddling with its bits10:57
lagacjwatson: that's planned for +110:58
ogra_cmpcupcdate-rc.d of the package will do nothing if a K link exists, just dont remove it10:58
lagaogra_cmpc: so i just remove the S links. i guess for +1, i should write a blacklist function similar to the whitelist one10:59
ogra_cmpcIf  any  files  /etc/rcrunlevel.d/[SK]??name already exist then update-10:59
ogra_cmpc       rc.d does nothing.  The program was written this way so  that  it  will10:59
ogra_cmpc       never  change an existing configuration, which may have been customized10:59
ogra_cmpc       by the system administrator.  The program will only  install  links  if10:59
ogra_cmpc       none  are  present, i.e., if it appears that the service has never been10:59
ogra_cmpc       installed before.10:59
ogra_cmpcfrom man ...10:59
=== davmor2_away is now known as davmor2
ogra_cmpclaga, oh, btw,why did you disable nbd-client ? it wont do any harm (will just fail silently if there is no configuration)11:15
lagaogra_cmpc: i'm not worried about starting it, i'm worried about it getting killed when the box is shut down11:15
asacogra_cmpc: whatfor would libflashsupport require SSL?11:16
ogra_cmpcah, right, you should move it11:16
lagahum, is it "for i in $@; do" or "for i in "$@"; do" - i wonder if i these quotation marks will affect semantics11:17
ogra_cmpcasac, hmm, i knew that once ... its so long ago that i had to do with actual code there, let me look11:18
Mithrandirlaga: use "$@" or just for i; do ... ; done11:19
asaccommunication with sound server? over ssl?11:19
lagaMithrandir: thanks11:19
asacogra_cmpc: please fix it ;)11:19
ogra_cmpcasac, whats wrong with it ?11:19
asacogra_cmpc: from the strace it looks like it invalidates file descriptors and finally crashes firefox/youtube11:19
asacogra_cmpc: go to youtube ... select a video with sound ... and push backwards and forwards ... wait till sounds start. repeat11:20
ogra_cmpcasac, aha11:20
ion_laga: sh -c 'set -- "foo bar" "baz x"; printf "%s\n" "$@"' and sh -c 'set -- "foo bar" "baz x"; printf "%s\n" $@'11:20
ogra_cmpc  * built with tls support patch from Daniel T. Chen <crimsun@fungus.sh.nu>11:20
ogra_cmpc    https://code.edge.launchpad.net/~crimsun/libflashsupport-pulse/devel11:20
asacogra_cmpc: yeah i disabled that already11:20
asacby default it uses OPENSSL11:20
ion_laga: And yeah, as Mithrandir said, plain “for i” is sufficient.11:21
ogra_cmpcasac, originally it used libssl11:21
asacthat patch switches to gnutls11:21
asacyeah ... but that didn'thelp11:21
ogra_cmpcwell, then its not ssl related i'd say11:21
asaci even switched from PULSEAUDIO to ALSA ... in that way the crashes are even more frequent11:21
ogra_cmpcyeah, flashsupport shouldnt be hooked between flash and alsa11:21
lagaion_: thanks11:21
asacogra_cmpc: well. it was just to evaluate11:22
ogra_cmpcits really only to work around pulse not closing its handles11:22
ogra_cmpcerr flash11:22
ogra_cmpcnot pulse11:22
asacogra_cmpc: and see where the problem might be. so given that neither SSL nor the sound output is responsible i guess that its really in the core of flashsupport11:22
asacthey have a worker thread for instance.11:22
asacmaybe that tries to access filedescriptors after firefox already closed the page or something11:23
ogra_cmpcdid you check the urls listed in the package description ?11:23
asacogra_cmpc: i don't see that purpose in the code11:23
asacogra_cmpc: for updates? Luke did. there is no new code11:23
ogra_cmpcbut probably info we dont know yet :)11:23
* ogra_cmpc looks11:24
asacogra_cmpc: #225  Deadlock/crash in flashsupport closing stream11:25
asacmaybe that ticket11:25
ogra_cmpchmm, the only git checkin is a version change to support pulse 0.9.511:26
cjwatsonlaga: as a general rule, double-quote all parameter expansions in shell unless you know that you have an explicit reason not to do so11:26
asacogra_cmpc: yeah. thats what luke told me11:27
asacdamn. now gdb crashes if you run firefox from within11:27
asacdoko: ^^11:28
ogra_cmpcso that looks like there a partial fix already11:30
ogra_cmpc6 lines is not that much, but seems there is more to fix ...11:31
asacogra_cmpc: where?11:33
asacin the ticket?11:33
asacoh in the mids of the long pastes there is indeed something11:33
* asac reading11:33
asaclet me try that11:34
ogra_cmpcbut apparently that doesnt fix it completely yet11:34
ogra_cmpcworks ?11:38
asacogra_cmpc: no, but i had a hacked version trying a clean one now11:39
cjwatsonlaga: (cases where you would generally not want to double-quote parameter expansions are when they're the operand to 'case', or when you want to deliberately word-split something)11:39
asacogra_cmpc: how is that supposed to fix a dead lock?11:39
lagacjwatson: i once read a good explanation of all that, but i forgot half of it, hence my question :) thanks for the explanation11:40
cjwatsonlaga: http://www.greenend.org.uk/rjk/2001/04/shell.html is a good article by a friend of mine on the subject11:41
asacogra_cmpc: now it crashes firefox when playing the video for first time11:42
lagacjwatson: thanks, bookmarked11:42
ogra_cmpcasac, as i understand it he tries to kill the thread before it can lock up11:44
dokoasac: architecture specific?11:45
ogra_cmpcasac, http://www.pulseaudio.org/ticket/225#comment:4 is the relevant info here i think11:49
asacdoko: i don't think so.11:50
asacdoko: can you try to start gdb /usr/lib/firefox-3.0b5/firefox11:51
asacwith dbgsym for xulrunner-1.9 and firefox-3.0 installed?11:51
asacmaybe flashplugin-nonfree and libflashsupport-dbgsym as well11:51
asacogra_cmpc: hmm. we could use a timed mutex then in shutdown11:52
ogra_cmpci wonder if there is simply siomething missing in FPX_SoundOutput_Close11:54
ogra_cmpcwhere the heck is p DEFINED11:54
asacogra_cmpc: pulse doesn't provide such a timeout lock11:55
asacogra_cmpc: unlikely that p is not allocated :)11:55
ogra_cmpcno, i mean not freed correctly11:55
asacogra_cmpc: zeroing is done in line 94311:56
ogra_cmpcFPX_SoundOutput_Close frees p->mainloop, ->context and ->stream11:56
asacand alloc in the line before11:56
asacogra_cmpc: i think its created in init and then only kept as user_data in the callback11:58
asacogra_cmpc: pa_context_set_state_callback(p->context, context_state_cb, p);11:58
ogra_cmpchmm, what about p->first ?11:59
asacwelll and a few more callbacks get that12:00
asacso maybe we really get a call with that as data after free12:00
=== smarter_ is now known as smarter
asacfor instance _write_callback might be  a candidate12:00
asacmaybe we can cancel those explicitly on free?12:01
ogra_cmpcwrite_data breaks oif p->first is 1 and then sets it to 0 ... but it doesnt get freed12:01
ogra_cmpcat least not explicitly anywhere12:01
asacso what is first?12:03
asacjust a bool thing?12:03
cjwatsontjaalton: do you know if there's been any progress on bug 184651, or if it needs help? It's assigned to you12:04
ogra_cmpcit indicates that there is a connection to flash as i understand it12:04
ubotuLaunchpad bug 184651 in xorg-server "Crash when starting gnome-settings-daemon, in SrvXkbFreeGeomRows()" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/18465112:04
cjwatsontjaalton: setxkbmap (to Brazilian and back) might be an easier way to test it than messing with gnome-settings-daemon12:05
asacogra_cmpc: also maybe interesting that we goto fail; instead of goto unlock_and_fail in line 693 even though we have a lock12:05
tjaaltoncjwatson: I'm about to upload it :)12:05
asacogra_cmpc: first == no connection to flash?12:05
asaci cannot map that ;)12:06
cjwatsontjaalton: hooray :-)12:06
ogra_cmpcasac, if (!p->first && !pa_stream_get_timing_info(p->stream))12:06
asacogra_cmpc: maybe it indicates if its the first write_data ?12:06
* cjwatson blats yet another dup of it12:06
asaccall after _Open?12:06
ogra_cmpcline 890: p->first = 0; /* So, we write the first block noch, remember that */12:07
asacogra_cmpc: let me try to null out the callbacks before freeing the context12:08
ogra_cmpcso p->first seems to indicate the first data blck12:08
cjwatsondoes anyone happen to know if there's an appropriate GTK style for warning text that would render it as red? I don't really feel good about hardcoding the colour. Bug 20405312:10
asaci think first isok12:10
ubotuLaunchpad bug 204053 in ubiquity "Make warning text in Ubiquity red" [Wishlist,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/20405312:10
Riddellevand: erk, ubiquity has stopped being able to change the mount point12:26
cjwatsonRiddell: in bzr?12:28
Riddellcjwatson: today's daily CD12:28
cjwatsonI expect that's my fault12:28
cjwatsonyou said my changes worked ;-)12:28
Riddellcjwatson: yeah, I can't remember if I tested setting the mountpoint12:28
RiddellI'd have thought I would, but maybe not12:28
cjwatsonI'm syncing the Kubuntu daily now and will check once I've got it12:28
cjwatsonor I can help you fix it if that would be quicker12:29
cjwatsonRiddell: is this while creating a partition, or while editing a partition?12:29
cjwatsonRiddell: and is it by selecting from the dropdown, or by typing it in?12:30
Riddellcjwatson: selecting the dropdown12:33
Riddellwhile editing a partitio12:33
cjwatsonRiddell: and presumably the symptoms are that it accepts it in the dialog, but then doesn't actually change it when you press OK?12:34
Riddellcjwatson: yes12:35
cjwatsondamn, it's working in gtk and that bit's basically the same12:36
cjwatsoncan I have syslog just in case it's a stupid crash or something?12:36
cjwatson(and /var/log/installer/debug)12:36
Riddellhang on, jockey seems to have frozen the entire machine while installing broadcom firmware12:37
Riddellcjwatson: http://kubuntu.org/~jriddell/tmp/syslog12:39
Riddellrunning on my installed machine12:39
Riddellexception near the bottom12:40
cjwatsonRiddell: whoopsie12:44
Riddellcjwatson: http://kubuntu.org/~jriddell/tmp/kde_ui.diff12:44
Riddellseems to sort it12:44
Riddellcjwatson: committed12:53
ion_mvo: Has there been any progress with the apt+zsync thing, btw?12:58
=== cjwatson_ is now known as cjwatson
cjwatsonRiddell: thanks, I was on the phone so you beat me to it13:03
seb128$ dpkg --compare-versions 2.22.1 gt 2.22.01; echo $?13:04
Riddellpitti: after using jockey to install broadcom firmware on a live CD session, any process using the network freezes13:11
Riddelloh, pitti's away13:13
Riddellcody-somerville: possibly this was intended to go to you https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/abiword/+bug/202174/comments/3013:15
ubotuLaunchpad bug 202174 in abiword "Please update to version 2.6" [Undecided,New]13:15
cody-somervilleRiddell, thanks. It was.13:16
cjwatsonlamont: in case you don't read bug mail, could you have a look at bug 206113, please?13:23
ubotuLaunchpad bug 206113 in util-linux "Wubi install cannot create swap space (8.04 Beta) [Regression from alpha 6]" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/20611313:23
lamontcjwatson: I don't read bug mail generally, thanks13:25
lamonthrm... although that does leave me wondering where I auto-filed the mail...13:26
lamontcjwatson: it'll be this afternoon latish sometime, and I'll work on that.  (after 2200UTC)13:27
lamontgo ahead and assign it to me if you want - either way, it's top of the list when I get my core-dev hat back on.13:29
seb128asac, pochu: what was this firefox font issue happening when using the xrandr capplet?13:35
pochuseb128: bug 17855813:37
ubotuLaunchpad bug 178558 in xulrunner-1.9 "Firefox 3.0 makes everything annoyingly huge" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/17855813:37
seb128xrandr1.2 seems quite broken13:38
seb128xorg detects the dpi correctly13:38
seb128but as soon as you use the new capplet on an intel965 card you get broken dpi values13:38
seb128ie, xpdyinfo lists 1x1 for example13:39
ogra_cmpcthats tiny :)13:40
ScottKmvo: I see you updated my pyspf package for Dapper -> Hardy upgrades.  I'm pretty sure python-dns will also need doing.  I'll take care of that one so you can mark it off your list.13:45
=== Lure_ is now known as Lure
cjwatsonlamont: ok, done13:48
lamontdear firefox.  please stop stealing focus and let the window manager do its job.  kthx13:56
mvoScottK: great, thanks14:01
ScottKmvo: Actually looking at it now.  The python-dns we have in Dapper was so unmaintained it didn't actually provide python version specific binaries14:02
ScottKSo it looks like due to poor maintenance two years ago we get off easy now.14:02
jdongasac: what's the least messy way for me to make firefox "open with" a single app for everything?14:03
rrittenhouseI went to upgrade hardy this morning to grab the latest packages and I'm just wanting to see if this was a problem on my end or your end. When updating it tries to install ia32-libs (im running 64bit hardy) I get an error msg stating that the ia32-libs package is trying to overwrite /usr/lib32/gtk-2.0/2.10.0/loaders/svg_loader.so which is also in package vmware-server14:04
cjwatsonthat's a vmware-server bug14:04
rrittenhouseah ok14:05
cjwatsonit shouldn't be shipping files in that directory14:05
mvoScottK: heh :) good, python-dns dosen't show up in my scanner for the missing conflicts/replaces so that is good news14:05
cjwatsonif it needs to ship them itself for whatever reason (but really, it shouldn't), then it should use a private directory14:05
lamontdear firefox. when picking a window to use for a "open in browser" thang, please prefer the ONE IN THE CURRENT WORKSPACE14:07
Hobbseelamont: it picks the last used one instead?14:07
lamontand drags it across several workspaces to get here.14:08
Hobbseeyeah.  i don't think firefox groks workspaces - or focus.14:08
lamontnot a regression though14:08
lamontfor either14:08
lamontsimply pain14:08
mvolamont: are you running the latest metacity? or compiz?14:08
Hobbseewith kde you could fix that.14:08
Hobbseebut i don't remember it being a problem (it changing work spaces) with compiz for a long while either.14:08
lamontmvo: on this machine, I have yet to have compiz come up....  what do I need to tweak where (restarted gdm and X after (re)installing compiz, still no compiz love)14:09
mvolamont: click on system/preferences/apperance/desktop effects14:09
lamontHobbsee: it doesn't change workspaces, it drags a ffox window from another workspace to here.14:09
Hobbseelamont: sorry, that's what i meant.14:09
Hobbsee(was unclear that it == firefox, in my statement)14:10
rrittenhouseI'm also getting "no space left on device errors" is that something with hardy?14:11
lamontmeh.  "please reboot so we canz have the closed nv driver, kthx"14:11
lamontmvo: thanks - I'll reboot later today then14:11
mvolamont: yeah, the joy of binary-only drivers14:12
cjwatsonogra_cmpc: could you reassign bug 207634 to the proper place? I doubt it belongs on ubiquity14:16
ubotuLaunchpad bug 207634 in ubiquity "LTSP amd64 installs 64bit clients software" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/20763414:16
ogra_cmpcheh, i wonder how it ended up there first place :)14:16
stgraberhmm, LTSP assigned to ubiquity ? :)14:17
\shcjwatson, TB devices are working14:19
=== cpro1 is now known as cprov
cjwatson\sh: excellent14:20
cjwatson\sh: though I hope that's >2TB?14:20
cody-somervilleslangasek, As I suspected, those errors yesterday were just intermittent.14:21
\shcjwatson, you can bet on it :)14:21
asacjdong: hmm14:34
cjwatsonRiddell: bug 203626 looks very ugly; does it show up that way by default?14:36
ubotuLaunchpad bug 203626 in ubiquity "Kubuntu installer: Edit partition dialog rendering error" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/20362614:36
cjwatsonRiddell: can we just remove all the sizeHints from the .ui files? :-P qt4-designer seems to like to add them from time to time14:36
TheMusoIf anybody happens to be running hardy on a PowerPC, if you could please try this new yaboot package, to fix G5 SATA issues. http://www.themuso.id.au/ubuntu/yaboot_1.3.13a-1ubuntu5_powerpc.deb Works for me on my G4, and the author tested on a few machines, but the more it is known to work on other machines the better. If all is favourable, please ping/message me, and I can then get it uplaoded. Thanks in advance.14:42
Riddellcjwatson: yes, that would probably work14:43
ogra_cmpcasac, do we have a bug open for the libflashsupport issue ? i'm just talking to warren in #ltsp (libflashsupport maintainer in fedora)14:51
asacogra_cmpc: no, because we cannot get a good backtrace14:51
asaci have a upstream crash report though14:51
asac(so its not only us)14:52
ogra_cmpcdo you know when it broke ?14:52
asacogra_cmpc: http://crash-stats.mozilla.com/report/index/49e43885-e464-11dc-8f26-001a4bd43e5c14:52
ogra_cmpc(or do you mind coming over to #ltsp so i dont need to proxy warren :) )14:53
asacogra_cmpc: i think it either was always broken (e.g. we didn't use pulseaudio + flashsupport combo)14:53
ogra_cmpci think flash changed14:53
asacogra_cmpc: yes. probably wasn't the problem when flash didn't use xembed14:53
ogra_cmpcltsp users used that setup in gutsy14:53
asacwhich was about 2 flash releases away14:53
ogra_cmpc(we didnt have it buy default though)14:54
asacogra_cmpc: but you said that you cannot reproduce it in ltsp ... so maybe you just didn't see it14:54
ogra_cmpcasac, well, i had plenty other firefox issues in gutsys ltsp it probably just was hidden behind the ram problems14:56
asacogra_cmpc: question is: can you reproduce it now?14:57
asacanyone still has a rotting old flash on his disk? (something older than 6 month?)14:57
asaci'd really like to see if this is a flash regression14:58
\shslangasek, any reasons why we didn't sync/merge php 5.2.5 for hardy?14:58
ogra_cmpcasac, not atm, i'm testing flash on the classmate a lot and the browser runs stable .... i havent tested on ltsp14:58
asacogra_cmpc: classmate uses flashsupport + pulse?14:58
asacthat would really go together with the caused-by deadlock thing14:59
asacmost likely classmate has a different thread scheduling due to its constraints :)14:59
lamontcjwatson: I want an escape in ControlPath for 'source IP' address or some other easy-to-control thing14:59
asacogra_cmpc: http://crash-stats.mozilla.com/report/index/49e43885-e464-11dc-8f26-001a4bd43e5c15:00
asacogra_cmpc: oh sorry. alrady posted that above15:00
ogra_cmpcasac, indeed it uses whatever we have by default15:00
cjwatsonlamont: %l for local host name not good enough?15:00
ogra_cmpcasac, warren asks if you could come over for a sec (#ltsp)15:01
lamontcjwatson: I have a big-fat-routing hack where there's an additional IP on the host, and packets from that IP get routed/SNATed out a diff ISP...15:06
cjwatsonlamont: bugzilla.mindrot.org would be the best place to ask, then15:06
cjwatsonif I add it locally they'll just do it with a different option letter later ;)15:06
Riddellcjwatson: today's kubuntu desktop CD has universe disabled in sources.list15:08
lamontcjwatson: very true15:10
cjwatsonRiddell: the live CD itself always has, AFAIK; shouldn't affect what's in place after installation15:11
cjwatsonif you want to change that, livecd-rootfs is the place, but you should probably take care to do that only after installing everything15:11
cjwatsonRiddell: is there time to fix bug 203660 by creating a QMessageBox by hand as described in http://doc.trolltech.com/4.3/qmessagebox.html? I agree with Celeste that the current display is confusing15:16
ubotuLaunchpad bug 203660 in ubiquity "Partition formatting message unclear" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/20366015:17
ogra_cmpccjwatson, hmm, is the d-i question for the installer language asked on purpose ?15:21
ogra_cmpc(i dont mean the gfxboot one)15:21
cjwatsonogra_cmpc: only if you select English in gfxboot; and yes, that's on purpose in case people just take the default15:21
ogra_cmpci selected german15:22
cjwatsonah, I know, this is because I haven't uploaded debian-installer recently15:23
cjwatsonso it's still using the localechooser without that feature15:23
cjwatson(I changed how this stuff works in response to bug 8516215:23
ubotuLaunchpad bug 85162 in localechooser "installer doesn't permit to set little countries" [High,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/8516215:23
ogra_cmpcnice description :)15:24
Riddellcjwatson: yes that dialogue should be fairly easy to fix, I think it just wasn't possible or I couldn't see how when I first ported it to qt415:24
* Riddell adds to TODO15:24
cjwatsonogra_cmpc: uploading15:26
ogra_cmpci'll test with the next build if its gone ...15:26
TheMusoKeybuk: Do you have a minute to discuss some initramfs/mdadm stuff?15:29
KeybukTheMuso: sure, what's up?15:29
TheMusoKeybuk: Re the initramfs error handling spec at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HardyInitramfsErrorHandling, I'm trying to get a mount root failure hook to execute for mdadm if a RAID array cannot be brought up. The hook gets executed from the panic function, however this does not happen because the md device node exists even if the array cannot be brought up.15:30
TheMusoKeybuk: What I'm thinking of doing is making the panic while loop get executed if either the root device node doesn't exist, or vol_id can't identify the device/volume. However I am wondering if there is a better solution, or whether this might break something else.15:31
kagoupitti, around ?15:31
KeybukI'm not entirely sure I follow15:31
Keybukthe mountroot() function in the initramfs runs alongside udev15:32
Keybukwhich itself runs alongside the kernel which is busy poking and probing for things15:32
Keybukso device nodes may show up at any time inside mountroot(), not when you're expecting them15:32
Keybukthis is why mountroot() has a while loop that waits for the device node to exist15:32
Keybuksince that's a good indication that the block device has been detected15:32
Keybukfor mdadm devices, the device node is created when the array is detected15:32
Keybukthis does not mean that the array is functional15:33
Keybuksince the array can be detected if metadata is found on another drive about it15:33
Keybukor if just one drive of the set has turned up15:33
TheMusoKeybuk: I gathered as much.15:33
TheMusore mdadm15:33
Keybukso mountroot() also tests the root device with vol_id15:33
ogra_cmpcdont you have a uuid you can wait for ?15:33
Keybukwhich actually examines the filesystem on the root device15:33
TheMusoWaiting for a device is not the issue.15:33
Keybukas ogra says, if you have UUID= this is largely irrelevant since you won't have the target filesystem UUID until the array is functioning *anyway*15:34
Keybukthis is for ROOT=/dev/md115:34
TheMusoI'm talking about the point where the script gives up, and panics.15:34
Keybukso after a while, the script gives up and panics15:34
Keybukif they're using ROOT=UUID=... you're pretty buggered, since you don't know it's on a RAID device15:34
Keybukif the UUID has shown up, you wouldn't be panicking15:35
TheMusoYep, that I also know. The issue here, is the above spec outlined details of some information being given to the user in the form of a mountroot failure hook, that gets executed before the script drops you to a shell.15:35
ogra_cmpclong term the panic function should be enhanced imho15:35
Keybukin which case, you have several cases15:35
Keybuk1) the $ROOT device doesn't exist15:35
Keybuk2) the $ROOT device exists, but vol_id fails15:35
Keybukfor (2), if $ROOT looks like an md device, you can assume the array is broken in some way15:36
TheMusoRight. At the moment, these hooks are executed in the panic function, if panic is passed an extra argument. However since the md device node exists, the panic doesn't occur, and the script crashes out later anyway.15:36
Keybukactually that's only really two cases, not several ;)15:36
Keybukthe panic should occur?15:37
Keybukmountroot() will panic if the array exists, but hasn't been activated15:37
Keybukso [ -e $ROOT ] is true15:37
Keybukbut /lib/udev/vol_id $ROOT will be false15:37
Keybukie. array node exists, but filesystem on it cannot be found15:37
TheMusoYes thats right.15:37
Keybukat that point, if $ROOT is /dev/md*, you can just use mdadm to probe it and provide useful feedback15:37
KeybukI see15:38
Keybukthere's a bug in the initramfs script ;)15:38
Keybukit loops while the device doesn't exist, or vol_id fails15:38
Keybukbut only panics if the device doesn't exist15:38
Keybukthus your problem15:38
KeybukI honestly think that's just a bug in the initramfs script15:38
Keybukvol_id was added later, so was obviously missed on the third point it was needed15:39
TheMusoRight, I was thinking of adding it to that lop anyway, so panic gets triggered and still gives the user meaningful info.15:39
Keybukthat second while should match the first while, and the if15:39
Keybukthat is what I would do15:39
=== beuno_ is now known as beuno
TheMusoOk. Was just wonderng if that would be likely to break anything else.15:40
Keybukshouldn't think so15:40
TheMusoI've already tested these changes locally, and they work 100%.15:40
TheMusoKeybuk: Ok thanks for your time.15:40
Keybukcould you do me a favour while you're in there?15:41
TheMusoKeybuk: Sure.15:41
Keybukthe init script in initramfs15:41
Keybukthe very last line is exec run-init15:41
Keybukit could do with a 2>&1 on the end ;)15:41
TheMusoOf the whole line?15:41
Keybukshould be15:41
Keybukexec run-init ${rootmnt} ${init} "$@" <${rootmnt}/dev/console >${rootmnt}/dev/console 2>&115:41
TheMusoYep I can do that. What is this supposed to be fixing?15:42
Keybukfixes the long-standing bug that init has no stderr :-)15:42
TheMusohaha right.15:42
pwnguinthe more i look at initramfs scripts, the more i understand why they're not fixed =(15:42
TheMusopwnguin: The whole initramfs infrastructure is not too bad actually, once you get your head around it.15:42
TheMusoKeybuk: Ok, will do that. Thanks again.15:43
pwnguinTheMuso: then feel free to have a look at bug #20342915:43
ubotuLaunchpad bug 203429 in initramfs-tools "resume script missing functions" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/20342915:43
TheMusopwnguin: Ok...15:44
KeybukTheMuso: patch looks good to me15:44
TheMusoKeybuk: Ok, will throw it in as well.15:45
ogra_cmpcinitramfs ... <315:46
pwnguinso is initramfs really the kernel team's purvue?15:46
pheldare there any hardy locale-packages for FF3 somewhere?  or updated locale for FF2?15:47
Keybukpwnguin: not really, it's one of those things that doesn't really belong to the kernel or to userspace15:47
Keybukone of my long-term goals is to make it just an extension of userspace15:47
pwnguinoh, btw Keybuk. i haven't been able to reproduce it lately, but thinkfinger in hardy is occasionally triggering an infinite look in hal-input-addon or something. if i can ever get it again, i'll make sure to document it well15:49
pwnguini tried having a look at the package for interesting changes, but the diff.gz includes most/all of upstream svn15:50
KeybukI'm not entirely happy with thinkfinger in general15:50
KeybukI managed to find all sorts of little threading issues with it15:50
pwnguini dont think anyone is15:50
Keybukfprint is much better, but nowhere near complete enough15:50
RiddellArneGoetje, freeflying: kubuntu-kde4 CDs have started being built again, scim-bridge-client-qt4 seems pretty broken for people who don't use scim.  if you don't have scim installed it delays startup by several seconds and if you do it insists on starting scim-gtk (not skim) and won't let you kill it15:55
freeflyingRiddell: do u have any extra space for scim in cd?15:56
Riddellfreeflying: not really, but it shouldn't force people to run an app they don't need15:57
freeflyingRiddell: if not, I prefer to drop skim scim-bridge out, cause without scim and corresponding IMe, they really useless15:58
Riddellscim-bridge-client-qt (qt3) has no such problems, if you don't have scim installed it doesn't complain or delay apps starting15:58
ScottKdoko: For python-central I think we are done with fixing everything.  For python-xml, it looks like zsi and pyslide need some additional work.  I'm out of bandwidth to deal with it.16:15
dokoScottK: thanks, these are still on my list16:17
dokoScottK: hmm, I did upload zsi ...16:17
ScottKdoko: Yes, but there was some additional feedback on zsi.  I think either the feedback was invalid or additional change was needed.  I haven't have time to investigate.16:18
ScottKdoko: For zsi see https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/elisa/+bug/199014/comments/9416:20
ubotuLaunchpad bug 199014 in pyslide "python-xml removal: please drop/replace (build) dependencies" [Undecided,In progress]16:20
dokoScottK: uploaded16:30
ArneGoetjeRiddell: I told you before that you will need 4 packages installed: scim, scim-bridge-agent, scim-bridge-client-qt4, scim-bridge-client-qt.16:32
ArneGoetjeRiddell: otherwise it doesn't work!16:32
TheMusoOk, new initramfs-tools uploaded, and I'm off to bed.16:32
RiddellArneGoetje: right, but even with scim installed (and we don't like gtk apps in kubuntu of course) it causes problems for non-scim users16:33
Riddellsince it insists on starting scim and won't let you quit16:33
ArneGoetjeRiddell: well, now you cannot use CJK.16:33
Riddellyes :(16:34
ArneGoetjeRiddell: start skim and select it to be the gui for scim.16:34
ArneGoetjeRiddell: you will need scim running in the background anyways. Skim is the KDE frontend to connect to the scim backend daemon.16:36
RiddellArneGoetje: do you know why scim-bridge-client-qt4 insists on starting scim while qt/gtk clients do not?16:39
ArneGoetjeRiddell: scim will always be running and is normally started with the X session. im-switch takes care of that.16:43
ScottKdoko: Cool.  I guess we can mark that off as done then.16:45
geserkeescook, jdstrand: as bug #214194 is marked security, I wanted to ask you if it's ok to set the bug to invalid based on my comment16:47
ubotuLaunchpad bug 214194 in gnupg "GnuPG allows remote attackers to cause a denial of service" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/21419416:47
jdstrandgeser: yes-- this was also confirmed (as noted in ubuntu-cve-tracker)16:50
emgenthi jdstrand16:51
jdstrandhi emgent16:52
keescookgeser: yeah, please do.16:55
freeflyingArneGoetje: Riddell also need scim-modules-socket16:55
ScottKfreeflying: Riddell is going to upload the qt3 asian languages patch you pointed me at yesterday.16:57
freeflyingScottK: have u tested it already?16:58
ScottKNo.  He was looking into it.16:58
Riddellfreeflying: makes chinese characters in konqueror nicely16:58
ScottKMy Kubuntu bandwidth is consumed by kde-guidance at the moment.16:59
freeflyingRiddell: but can not handle it under en_US locale16:59
freeflyingRiddell: oh, u mean ur patch?16:59
Riddellfreeflying: yes, adding the patch fixes chinese characters in konqueror for me17:00
emgentkeescook: have you saw anteater beta?17:00
emgenthi, btw :)17:00
freeflyingRiddell: cool17:01
=== ogasawara_ is now known as ogasawara
dokoRiddell: what is a standard image viewer installed by default on Kubuntu?17:04
Riddelldoko: gwenview17:06
dokoRiddell: thanks17:09
keescookemgent: hi, took a brief look, seems nice.  :)17:13
emgentcool :)17:13
dokoRiddell: hmm, but there's nothing like an alternative for a generic image viewer?17:14
Riddelldoko: I don't understand17:17
Riddelldoko: konqueror too of course (using gwenview's kpart)17:18
crevettewho is Soren Hansen ?17:22
crevettehey I found :)17:23
crevettesoren: around ?17:23
cjwatsonRiddell: I think he means an alternative as in update-alternatives17:26
cjwatsonisn't there an XDG way to spawn an image viewer given a file?17:26
cjwatsonlike xdg-open <filename>17:26
ogra_cmpccjwatson, do you still se the hang in kvm when the X focus is gone ? apparently my virtualbox decided to behave similar17:27
LaserJockcjwatson: yep17:27
cjwatsonogra_cmpc: it was only when switching using Ctrl-Alt-<cursor>, so now I just press/release Ctrl-Alt and use the workspace switcher widget17:27
ogra_cmpcah, k17:27
ogra_cmpci have it with alt-tab my installs all failed at different points today17:28
ogra_cmpcits a bit tricky to put windows side by side on the classmate ... so i cant really avoid dropping the focus ...17:28
cjwatsonmy kvms are usually maximised17:31
emgentheya tseliot :)17:38
tseliotemgent: hi17:38
LaserJockwho's archive day is it today?17:39
cjwatsonLaserJock: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/ArchiveAdministration17:39
LaserJockseb128: can you accept flashplugin-nonfree into gutsy-proposed for me, thanks?17:41
seb128LaserJock: I technically can but it has to be approved by ubuntu-sru first no?17:43
LaserJockseb128: I approved it17:43
seb128bug number?17:43
LaserJockseb128: I just didn't want to sub you guys from a massive bug17:43
seb128sorry I've to go in a minute and I don't know enough about this update to feel comfortable to push it to stable17:44
seb128try to grab slangasek or pitti otherwise I'll have a look when I'm back17:44
LaserJockit's bug #17389017:45
ubotuLaunchpad bug 173890 in flashplugin-nonfree "flashplugin-nonfree fails to install due to md5sum mismatch" [High,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/17389017:45
LaserJockit's just a md5sum update going to -proposed17:45
LaserJocknot -updates yet17:45
cody-somervilleWhich subdirectory of ~ubuntu-archive on p.u.c shows the diffs between what was pulled in yesterday and today to build the cd?17:46
cjwatsoncody-somerville: that's buried in the appropriate CD build log under http://people.ubuntu.com/~ubuntu-archive/cd-build-logs/17:47
jdongcan an archive admin open flood gates on backports binary NEW?17:47
jdongin particular nexuiz is uninstallable in gutsy-backports because -data passed and the binaries are in NEW17:47
SveinungWhat is the correct procedure to report that I have modified a source package that currently won't build (according to its page in Launchpad) so it builds (at least on my system)? I have filed a bug against it, but if that is the wrong way to do it pleace tell me.17:53
Sveinungthe bug: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/dbus-java/+bug/20470417:53
ubotuLaunchpad bug 204704 in dbus-java "dbus-java should work with IcedTea" [Undecided,New]17:53
ScottKThat's the right way.17:53
Sveinungthanks :)17:53
ScottKSveinung: Even better, if you haven't, make a debdiff and attach it to the bug.17:53
cjwatson(or just an ordinary diff is usually fine.)17:54
Sveinunghow is that different from a normal diff?17:54
ScottKWhich is actually in there already.17:54
infinitySveinung: After you "dpkg-buildpackage -S", you can "debdiff old_ver.dsc new_ver.dsc" and get a diff of the source packages.17:54
ScottKSveinung: Since it's a multiverse package, #ubuntu-motu is a better channel.17:54
SveinungThe diff removes the dependency on unfree packages too17:55
LaserJockpitti: if you have a sec can you allow flashplugin-nonfree into gutsy-proposed?17:55
ScottKWhich means it could be promoted to Universe (and #ubuntu-motu is still the right channel).17:55
cjwatsonFor some reason there is an idea floating around that debdiffs are much easier for sponsors to deal with. In practice it makes almost no difference and sometimes introduces extra work since you might well have to rewrite the changelog anyway.17:55
Sveinungok. Thank you. I am new to Ubuntu17:55
ScottKNo problem.  Glad to have you.17:56
infinitycjwatson: I'm 50-50 on changelog diffs, but debdiffing tends to provide more clean diffs than "diff tree-1 tree-2", since one of the trees might accidentally be uncleaned, etc.17:56
ogra_cmpcLaserJock, dunno if you noticed, i dropped the math, teaching and light desktop categories from edubuntu addon17:56
CaesarI submitted a bug with the wrong title17:57
toresbesubmit a bug17:57
cjwatsonCaesar: "Edit description/tags"17:57
Caesarcjwatson: yeah, just saw it17:57
infinitySveinung: A minor nitpick, if you're changing it to build-dep on openjdk-6-jdk, you might want to put the openjdk-6-jre dependency first in the ORed list, not last.17:57
toresbe"Bug #34235 has the wrong description"17:57
ubotuLaunchpad bug 34235 in malone "+editstatus oopses if you clear out the source package name" [Medium,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/3423517:57
toresbeand then file a bug against the erroneous description bug when the bug is fixed17:57
cjwatsoninfinity: It annoys me when somebody attaches a diff to a bug that's perfectly good, and then some jobsworth comes along and asks them to attach a debdiff instead. That's an excellent way to give contributors the impression that we care more about form than substance.17:58
infinitySveinung: (Which also makes it more obviously correct to say "it no longer depends on multiverse packages")17:58
infinitycjwatson: Oh, yes, I'm not going to insist on "ur diff is teh wrong formatz!!" or anything, I just recommend debdiff to those who aren't supplying useful patches at all.17:58
Sveinunginfinity: thank you17:58
\shguys, do we have an up2date software package for controlling powernow or speedstep cpus like athcool or powersaved in main? I wonder if we can get rid of old crap in universe17:59
cjwatsoninfinity: sure17:59
cjwatsonI've just been railing against bits of our process that seem to be excessive, lately17:59
infinitycjwatson: Heh.17:59
LaserJockogra_cmpc: yeah,saw something about it, didn't know about math and teaching though18:00
LaserJockogra_cmpc: what'd we lose?18:00
johanbr\sh: That's mostly controlled with kernel governors now, I believe. That control happens in the powernowd package.18:00
\shinfinity, any update on wine for lpia and p-a-s?18:00
ogra_cmpcLaserJock, empty categories18:00
ogra_cmpcwe didnt lose any packages18:01
\shjohanbr, so actually tools like athcool and friends are obsolete? (me doesn't use normally such things ;))18:01
LaserJockogra_cmpc: we don't have any math apps?18:01
infinity\sh: Err, could the update be in the form of "doh, forgot, I'll do it right now"?18:01
ScottKcjwatson: For me, if I get a debdiff, it's their name in the changelog/their upload that I'm sponsoring.  If I have to write debian/changelog, then it's my name with thanks to.  I'd rather give them credit for the upload if they've done all the work.  That's why I prefer the debdiff.18:01
ogra_cmpcLaserJock, none in the cd menu at least18:01
ogra_cmpcwhat should be there ?18:01
LaserJockthe KDE Edu math apps apps should be in there18:02
cjwatsonScottK: Nonsense. You can perfectly well edit the changelog trailer to include their name, or put their name in a "[ Happy Contributor ]"-type prefix.18:02
ScottKI could.18:02
infinityScottK: That works for an upload that fixes one thing, but if their patch is being integrated into an upload with many fixes (as is more common for Debian packages, or stuff in main), it's more effort.18:02
cjwatsonScottK: This takes approximately two extra seconds.18:02
\shinfinity, i think you need to come to berlin @ linuxtag after UDS to relax a bit :) I know that feeling about forgetting some things, too :) then I need to reset my brain :)18:02
cjwatsonand also what infinity said.18:03
infinityScottK: I can see both sides, and I also care approximately 0% about it all, as long as there's SOME sort of usable patch. :)18:03
\shinfinity, but thx a lot :)18:03
cjwatsonI care deeply about the fact that friends of mine have been put off contributing to Ubuntu because the first patch they send is ignored for months and then they get a request to resubmit it as a debdiff from somebody who clearly doesn't know anything about the software involved.18:04
cjwatsonIt doesn't give us a good impression at all.18:04
ScottKI definitely agree that getting the usable patch is 99% of it.  I guess we can argue about the 1%.18:04
ScottKAgreed on that.18:04
LaserJockcjwatson: well, we did have contributors getting upset that their name wasn't in the changelog18:04
johanbr\sh: I haven't heard of people using athcool nowadays. I'm not even sure it runs on modern AMD processors.18:04
LaserJockI think that was some of the motivation of trying to get them to do a debdiff we can sponsor straight off18:04
ScottKSo maybe we need a clearer set of sponsoring guidelines.18:04
cjwatsonLaserJock: I have no sympathy for sponsors who fail to credit contributors appropriately. It's not the contributor's fault for using the "wrong format".18:04
infinityThe only other time I kinda like to see a "debdiff" (or, rather, changelog entries in the diff) is if the patch is so mind-numbingly complex and intrusive that I want some verbosity explaining WTF it does, but that can just as easily be done in a bug comment too.18:05
cjwatsonThe work should be the sponsor's, not fobbed off onto contributors.18:05
\shjohanbr, well yeah...debian just updated it for a single line of source change...since feisty imho18:05
LaserJockcjwatson: it's not failing to credit18:05
LaserJockcjwatson: it's that they don't show up in -changes or on their Launchpad pages if you don't18:05
cjwatsonLaserJock: That's just dubious expectations, and we should probably reset those. As infinity said, if it had been rolled into a bigger upload they wouldn't have got that either.18:06
LaserJockand so if they eventually want to apply for MOTU they end up with an underestimate of their work18:06
LaserJockcjwatson: sure, we just don't have a lot of those in Universe/Multiverse18:06
cjwatsonI think it's a much bigger issue that we're putting off people who might apply for MOTU later on.18:06
LaserJockcjwatson: most uploads are by a single person18:06
cjwatsonor even who might be useful sources of patches even if they never choose to become developers18:07
infinityThe point here is that unnecessary process is off-putting.18:07
LaserJockcjwatson: well, I agree but we do have a damned if we do, damned if we don't situation at times18:07
infinityI can't count the number of times I've reported a very clear bug, with obvious testcases, and had someone respond with "can we see lspci -vvv and dmesg output, please?"18:07
cjwatsonUnnecessary process also slows us down, and in this business agility is pretty critical18:07
infinityAnd the same for patches, people insist on debdiffs, diffstats, etc.18:07
cjwatsondiffstats! That was the other thing I was complaining about18:08
LaserJockI agree guys18:08
cjwatsonWhat a totally useless metric for anything18:08
LaserJockbut that's policy18:08
\shLaserJock, depends....when you are working on a package with several fixes...I think I tend more to "Thx" or "Patch provided by <insert dude here>" ... just because, even if there is another name on the upload...if it breaks somehow, the sponsor get hit by some stone or will be crucified...18:08
cjwatsonBroken policy should be changed.18:08
infinityThe only thing diffstat tells me is "you didn't include 1.5MB of accidentally duplicated source in your patch".18:08
infinityWhich is nice to know, and all, but...18:08
LaserJockcjwatson: agreed, just we keep changing policy all the time and it confuses people18:09
cjwatsonyou can't fall back on "but that's policy" to defend a criticism of policy18:09
cjwatsonit doesn't make sense :-)18:09
LaserJockwell sure it does18:09
LaserJockif your the MOTU18:10
cjwatsonbut I'm not18:10
LaserJockand can't just change policy18:10
* _MMA_ smells a good UDS topic.18:10
LaserJock_MMA_: been, there, done that, still stinks18:10
cjwatsonwell, I can't "just change policy", that's why I'm complaining about it18:10
cjwatsonor rather I suppose I could but you'd all shout at me :-)18:10
LaserJock*I* wouldn't ;-)18:10
infinityChanging policy doesn't change behaviour.18:10
LaserJockbut some people might18:10
infinityThis is a matter of education, not policy.18:11
LaserJockinfinity: well, policy is to attach diffstat18:11
infinityEducating people that "a good patch is a good patch, don't just parrot 'no debdiff, you lose!'"18:11
ScottKI think what we really need are more sponsors.18:11
cjwatsonThat said, I *would* like (after discussion) to make it very clear that debdiffs and diffstats are not hard requirements for uploads to main18:11
cjwatsonand then we'll be in the frankly bizarre situation that universe's requirements are stricter18:11
LaserJockcjwatson: Universe is often stricter18:11
infinityAnd educating people that if they really don't understand a patch, they should ask someone else to help them look at it, not ask for it in 3 more formats. :P18:11
cjwatsonLaserJock: which is daft18:11
LaserJockwe can't rely on common sense in Universe18:12
LaserJockso we need strict policies18:12
cjwatsonbut the consequences of failure are much less18:12
ScottKcjwatson: True, but the experience level of the contributors is much lower in many cases.18:12
cjwatsonand increasing strictness does not improve quality, in general18:12
cjwatsonstrictness in itself is not a goal to be aimed for18:13
LaserJockwell, the strictness is a reaction, IMO18:13
cjwatsonreactions are often overcompensatory, and in such cases a counter-reaction is called for18:13
infinity\sh: Committed.18:14
LaserJockcjwatson: we've been doing counter-reactions since dapper18:14
LaserJockone Xorg upload and we've been swinging back and forth on SRUs ever since18:14
cjwatsonlook, I nominally own the stable release updates process, I know what excessive strictness does18:14
cjwatsonand no, we actually haven't been swinging back and forth as far as main SRUs are concerned18:14
LaserJockI'm talking about Universe18:14
cody-somervilleMaybe the strictness is necessary since the group of people working on universe are generally less skilled and have less experience. The strictness forces them to slow down and think and gain that experience to be able to work without such strictness. Just a thought.18:14
cjwatsonthe policy has been constant since dapper, with a few minor tweaks18:15
LaserJockas that seems to be what you are complaining about, correct?18:15
cjwatsonand it's only recently that we're realising that we probably need to simplify it18:15
ScottKUniverse has not been constant.18:15
cjwatsonLaserJock: people apply the debdiff/diffstat madness to my packages in main, if I don't get to them first18:15
cjwatsonso no, it's not just that that I'm complaining about18:15
LaserJockUniverse has had something like 4 "SRU policy revisited" I think18:15
cjwatsoncody-somerville: excessive strictness is not a good thing in itself. Every piece of bureaucracy should be justified18:16
ScottKWe've gone from motu-sru must approve before upload to all MOTUs can upload, and back to motu-sru must approve before upload in Universe18:16
_MMA_This is also a manpower issue. There's often just not the people to help. So processes get put in place which put the work on new contributors.18:16
LaserJockcjwatson: ok, well then sorry for being Universe-specific there18:16
cjwatsonwhat MOTU can do is actually sort of a different issue18:16
cjwatsonI care more about what we're presenting to random drive-by contributors18:16
cjwatsonsince those are the people least likely to be interested in putting the effort in to cope with extra bureaucracy18:16
LaserJockI agree18:17
cjwatsonin almost all cases they'll just give up and go away18:17
LaserJocklook at Planet Gnome or Planet KDE for instance18:17
LaserJockthere are increasingly more "Ubuntu bureaucracy is nuts"18:17
Keybuk_MMA_: isn't that a self-fulfilling doom?18:17
Keybukwe don't have enough people to review changes, so we make it harder for people to make them, and thus have even fewer people joining than before18:18
LaserJockdo we have an alternative18:18
cjwatsoncommit-then-review and review-then-commit is a fairly long-established dichotomy; the problem is when it gets to (iterate-through-several-different-spurious-requirements)-then-review-then-review-then-commit-then-review18:18
infinityOr, to bring this home slightly more.  If I didn't have full ubuntu-{core-,}dev rights, I doubt I'd contribute to the distro at all, not because I don't like it, but because sending in a good patch with a good explanation, and being told it's "wrong" because the format is incorrect, or I missed a hoop to jump through is disheartening.18:18
_MMA_Keybuk: Just an observation since getting into development.18:18
LaserJockwe don't have manpower so somebody else has to do it18:18
\shinfinity, thx :) when you meet lool in praque, please tell him: greetings from \sh, you owe me a drink , kthx :)18:18
KeybukLaserJock: why does it have to be done at all?18:18
_MMA_Keybuk: There's just not a "best" solution. So processes get put in place and here we are.18:19
cjwatsonLaserJock: we are not the only project of our size. Other projects of our size do not have the same requirements. Therefore there are alternatives, QED. :-)18:19
LaserJockKeybuk: what's the "it" there18:19
KeybukLaserJock: I think that was what I was attempting to ask you ;)18:19
LaserJockKeybuk: well, some "it"s do need to be done18:20
LaserJockwe have a big list of fixed Debian RC bugs that *aren't* going into Hardy18:20
Keybukit's not as if people are sending hand-written instructions to change the code18:20
Keybuka patch either applies or doesn't18:20
LaserJockwe have a list of FTBFS, uninstallable packages, etc.18:20
LaserJockevery release we get hammered for not getting fixes in18:21
elmoKeybuk: there are people who send kernel patches, with mathematical proofs of the change, it's great18:21
LaserJockso there's quite a bit of pressure to get things in18:21
cjwatson_MMA_: saying "it's all fixed, might as well live with what we've got" is a pretty defeatist attitude; I think we're smart developers in an interesting and worthwhile project, and should be striving to make it the best we can even if that involves substantial changes18:21
saivannmjg59 : Do you know the answer to that? https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/usplash/+bug/205990/comments/2818:21
ubotuLaunchpad bug 205990 in usplash "[hardy] splash screen disappears after a few seconds" [Medium,Confirmed]18:21
_MMA_cjwatson: Sorry to sound like a dick but are the 'drive by" people really the type of people we want to spend time on? Hell. Looks like Universe has a hard enough time keeping people who have gone through the process around. :)18:21
cjwatson_MMA_: yes18:21
Keybukmost of core-dev are what I would consider "drive by" people ;)18:22
cjwatson_MMA_: only a relatively small number of people actually want to be long-standing contributors to an operating system; but my experience is that there are lots of intelligent and useful contributors outside that fanatical subset18:22
_MMA_And sure. I've gotten a little jaded. :P18:22
cjwatson(also, I wouldn't be bringing this up if I weren't repeatedly seeing real examples of intelligent contributors driven away by process)18:22
LaserJockcjwatson: I think most MOTU appreciate the situation18:23
Keybukthose processes we have should be to ensure that any contribution, no matter how small or irregular, can make it into the distro18:23
LaserJockmost Ubuntu Developers, period18:23
cjwatsonLaserJock: _MMA_ challenged it, so I responded18:23
\shLaserJock, tbh, actually you as contributor should do what you are willing to do...no one forces anyone to do things...if we don't get RC bugs fixed for universe, hell, we don't have the manpower...we are just people and most of us have a real life which is more important sometimes (only sometimes ;))18:23
cjwatsonKeybuk: I'd modify that; we do need to ensure that there is quality control18:23
cjwatsonbut process in itself does not produce quality18:24
cjwatsonit just ensures that the people you have are the type who are willing to endure process18:24
LaserJock\sh: which absolutely doesn't matter to upstreams/users/reviewers18:24
LaserJockKeybuk: they can18:24
Keybukcjwatson: I'm a greater believer in "it's better to ask for forgiveness than permission"18:24
_MMA_Sure. At least in Universe, the "long-standing contributors" are a finite bunch with much work to do. The processes and barriers to "'drive by contributors" IMO have come out a lack of man-power.18:24
Keybuk(ie. review after upload)18:24
cjwatsonKeybuk: to take it to extremes, I wouldn't want an automatic system that applied any patch it saw and rolled it into the distro18:24
Keybukcjwatson: I know someone who does want that ;-)18:25
_MMA_*out of a18:25
KeybukLaserJock: I don't think that they can.  I think that the amount of effort required to get a patch in is sufficiently great that most people don't bother18:25
\shLaserJock, yes, but upstreams don't care about distributions...users don't care about people, and reviewers well, depends what review you want? I'm actually using ubuntu for business...and really, I'm proud about what we produced every release, with less power18:25
Keybuk(from my own talking to people, especially upstreams)18:26
cjwatsonbut review should be based on a developer's brain, not on form; and what we're currently doing is absolutely based on form. It would be better to ignore a patch for years (and that's not good!) than to ignore it for half that time and then bounce back to the contributor with a comment that proves that the commenter isn't qualified to deal with the patch18:27
LaserJockI'm just saying we aren't throwing away patches18:27
\shLaserJock, and if users and upstreams want something badly, I think we can invite them to work on what they want regarding ubuntu :) I don't chase them away :)18:27
cody-somervilleI personally don't see the barrier that high.18:27
cjwatsonpeople who contribute to free software projects are generally realistic; they know that they might sit there for ages until somebody gets round to them, and that's fine. What they hate is their patch ending up with somebody who knows even less about the code than they do18:27
cjwatsonLaserJock: pretty sure I've seen examples of patches bouncing through process and eventually getting marked Invalid for lack of response by the contributor, without a real developer having time to get involved at any stage18:28
LaserJockcjwatson: well, that's the way Ubuntu works though18:28
cjwatsonwhen it would have been better to just leave the patch alone18:28
cjwatsonLaserJock: it shouldn't be!18:28
LaserJockcjwatson: most MOTU know much less about the software than contributors18:28
james_wIs there a list that gets notified when any bug has a patch attached?18:28
cody-somervillecjwatson, Then maybe the issue is the bug team?18:28
LaserJockwe have like 20 people for 4k packages18:28
cjwatsonMOTUs are generally smart and able to learn18:29
cjwatsonthat's part of the process18:29
cjwatsonsure, they don't know a lot about it going in18:29
LaserJockthey don't have time to learn18:29
cjwatsonbut in the process of dealing with a patch they should learn enough to be able to cope18:29
LaserJockMOTU is about pushing paperwork18:29
cjwatsoncome on, I'm not speaking without experience here18:29
LaserJockI know18:29
LaserJockbut realistically I'm saying that many of the MOTU don't even know how to test the uploads their doing18:30
cjwatsonbeing a distribution developer is about integrating other people's code, sure, but when you come to integrate a patch you teach yourself enough about the thing you're working on in order to do it18:30
cjwatsonthat's half of what makes it fun18:30
cjwatsonand in any case I wasn't really talking about MOTUs, who from what I've seen generally do a decent job of patches once they're in their hands18:31
LaserJocka big problem seems to be bug triage18:31
Keybukwhere I used to work, we had an interview test where you were given the code to a network daemon and had to add a "ping" command to it which replied "pong" when received18:31
cjwatsoncody-somerville is right to some extent that it's a triage problem, but the policies on what's needed before a bug with a patch attached is triaged are set by MOTU18:31
Keybukthe idea being to test how well you could understand code you'd never seen before and how quickly you could modify it as requested18:32
LaserJockcjwatson: actually they really aren't18:32
Keybukit always struck me that the kinds of people who do well as a distribution developer are the kinds that complete that test very quickly indeed18:32
cjwatsonLaserJock: a better job than the problems I'm referring to, at least18:32
LaserJockcjwatson: bug work policies are mostly set by the QA team18:32
cjwatsonI'm pretty certain the QA team would take advice from MOTU on bugs with patches if it were offered :-)18:32
cody-somervillePeople who don't know what they're doing are often triaging bugs and just give "programmed" responses.18:32
cody-somervilleie. The whole "No one has touched this bug in awhile, wanna see if it still happens just for the sake of it?"18:33
\shcody-somerville, which is bad, too18:33
cody-somervilleWhy do they do that? Because they're lazy? I dunno.18:33
LaserJockcody-somerville: or "I'm closing this bug as it's had 30 days of no activity" even if it hasn't had anything from a dev18:33
lagacody-somerville: well, some/many bug reports can often be triaged by people who just paste canned responses like "what version of ubuntu are you using?" etc.. unfortunately.18:34
zyx386what is happning with my BUG?18:34
broonielaga: That sort of triage does tend to create an unfavourible impression in users if it's done without reading the bug.18:34
saivannDo you have so many examples of bug which are not correctly triaged?18:34
\shlaga, which is a bug in the "reporting bug mask in LP" we have many old bug reports with patches attached, which are already fixed upstream...which were reported during dapper times...18:34
KeybukLaserJock: I get those18:35
Keybukmy reply varies from just reopening it again to livid hatred18:35
lagabroonie: that's true.18:35
\shlaga, problem with those bugs, actually motu needs to take care about deciding if this is worth an SRU...but this means, more work on SRU, less work on latest devel release18:35
Keybukor drive-by duppers18:35
Keybukmy *friends*(18:35
zyx386i report BUG about usb modem and hardy heron??18:36
laga\sh: yeah, i hear SRUs are a lot of paperwork.18:36
\shlaga, yepp...so, what to do? working on latest devel release is fun, and working on SRU is responsibility to not break working releases18:37
\shlaga, decide for yourself, where the prio will be set by a contributor :)18:37
saivannWell the ubuntu bug triage wiki documentation is pretty clear, but there is no information about bug that have patches, why not update it?18:37
laga\sh: especially if you don't get paid :) i'm working a lot with mythtv where there was a new upstream release after about 1.5 years.. all you can do with old bugs is asking if they're still showing up with the latest release because upstream won't support old releases anymore. (and i personally don't care either ;))18:38
zyx386saivann: that is my bug18:38
ubotuLaunchpad bug 212980 in gnome-ppp "HuaWei E220 and is unknow!?" [Undecided,New]18:38
awalton__laga, we've got years and years of bugs like that in nautilus.18:39
lagaawalton__: auto expiry for the win.18:39
\shlaga, see, we have a lack of people for security updates in universe (sometimes, it's less painful then SRUs but many of times, it's even harder) just because you need to know how to reproduce the bugger or sec issue...it's work for people with responsibility and who are taking care...it's difficult, we have special policies..and it's not fun to fix a sec issue in a release from 2006, but it needs to be done...and you always have to fear, that your18:40
\sh update is breaking someone else installation...18:40
\shlaga, and money is not my motivation18:41
zyx386wel be fixed or not? this bug18:42
laga\sh: longer releases cycles (and longer feature freezes) would be a nice thing. it's hard to achieve that feeling of polish and shiny with SRUs :)18:43
zyx386because i have just usb modem to internet connection18:43
saivannzyx386 : maybe you can speak about this in #ubuntu-bugs18:44
RainCTzyx386: I've the same thing. I can explain you how to workaround that if you want. (In Gutsy it worked, btw)18:44
cody-somervilleRainCT, Maybe you should post your workaround in the bug report for everyone to find?18:45
zyx386RainCT: i gutsy worked perfect, with ppp  or gnome-ppp or with vodafone driver for linux18:45
\shlaga, time doesn't matter18:45
laga\sh: with regard to what?18:45
\shlaga, release cycles...18:46
zyx386cody-somerville: :)18:46
laga\sh: you get more time to fix bugs18:46
\shlaga, yes, but for every bug you fix, there will be two new bugs  :)18:47
RainCTcody-somerville: well, it involves a bash script, wvdial and binary thing. I might create a package for it18:47
zyx386RainCT: i know that is worked not on hardy18:48
laga\sh: does that also mean you have less bugs if your release cycle is shorter? ;)18:48
cody-somervilleRainCT, it would be nice if you could do what is required to fix it for Hardy. Is that your intention?18:48
\shlaga, no..that's what I meant with "time doesn't matter" :) manpower is what matters...and people who are tending to be hidden masochistics ;)18:49
laga\sh: yeah, that too18:49
zyx386RainCT: this dont worked on hardy http://wwwu.uni-klu.ac.at/agebhard/HuaweiE220/18:49
RainCTcody-somerville: I've no idea how to fix it, it seems to be a regression in network-admin (they added GRPS/UMTS support but actually what they did is break it, at least for us poor USB modem users :P)18:49
RainCT(how to fix it as in how to fix it properly)18:50
\shRainCT, hmmm? in hardy?18:50
RainCT\sh: yes18:50
\shRainCT, friend of mine is using his umts card with usb-modem quiet nicely...or are you taking about nozomi stuff?18:50
james_wI've just sent a mail to the bugsquad list to hopefully get the ball rolling on getting the first step improved, that is getting patches under the eyes of someone who can have a stab at judging it's suitability.18:50
cjwatsonjames_w: thanks!18:50
cjwatsonLet me tell you a story about contribution18:51
RainCT\sh: well, dunno if other models work, but at least the Huawei E220 isn't working anymore18:51
* ogra_cmpc gets the popcorn18:51
\shRainCT, hmm...qualcomm works18:51
cjwatsonAbout eight or nine years ago, before I was a free software developer to speak of, I was investigating a bug in tar that I'd been bitten by18:51
RainCTzyx386: run this in a terminal:  cd ~ && wget http://utils.eurion.net/hosted/huaweiAktBbo-i386.out && sudo mv ~/Desktop/huaweiAktBbo-i386.out /usr/local/etc/huaweiAktBbo-i386.out && sudo chmod +x /usr/local/etc/huaweiAktBbo-i386.out18:51
cjwatsonIt turned out that this was actually a bug in glibc. I rolled my sleeves up, figured it out, and posted a long explanation with a patch to the glibc bugs mailing list.18:52
zyx386RainCT: usb modem is now popular modem in sweden danmark norway, because you have more speed 7,2 Mbit download and 1,5 Mbit upload, and i well never change that because ubuntu not suport them, i well change my OS for my Hardware :)18:52
cjwatsonThe reply I got didn't consider the patch at all. I was told "if this were a real issue in tar, then why hasn't the tar maintainer told me about it?"18:52
zyx386RainCT: thanx that is not the answer is very old solution, itr it18:52
cjwatsonThe tar maintainer happened to be reading this, and forwarded my mail word-for-word to the same mailing list.18:53
RainCTzyx386: yeh I know, but that works18:53
cjwatsonThe glibc maintainer then applied my patch.18:53
infinitycjwatson: "glibc doesn't have bugs, unless you're in the small set of known contributors allowed to say so".18:53
cjwatsonHave I contributed to glibc since? Have I heck.18:53
infinitycjwatson: I ran into that same pushback the one and only time I found a legit upstream glibc bug.18:53
zyx386you can put you solution to the bug report18:53
cjwatsonNow, lots of people can tell the same kind of story about glibc. But do you see how this is form over substance?18:53
cjwatsonI wouldn't actually have minded if the glibc maintainer had ignored my patch to this day if he didn't have time to read it. (Well, I'd have minded a bit, but not nearly so much.)18:54
cjwatson(FWIW, if you're ghoulish enough to want to read an eight-year-old flamewar, the log is in http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=59829)18:56
ubotuDebian bug 59829 in libc6 "libc6: [PATCH] fnmatch() behaves oddly with *s and FNM_LEADING_DIR" [Fixed,Open]18:56
Keybukcjwatson: nice Ulrichism there18:58
Keybuk"I won't even look at this"18:58
cjwatsonmy point wasn't to get into an Ulrich-bash-fest, but to point out the analogy of excessive makework in patch review putting off contributors18:59
cjwatsonanyway, I've probably beaten this horse to death for now, and will go and do other things :-)19:00
Keybukthe trouble with using Ulrich as an analogy is that too many other people have Ulrich stories they wish to share at the bar19:01
zyx386saivann: what you talking about? https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/gnome-ppp/+bug/21298019:01
ubotuLaunchpad bug 212980 in gnome-ppp "HuaWei E220 and is unknow!?" [Undecided,New]19:01
cjwatsonKeybuk: ... and a growing number of people have Ubuntu stories they wish to share at the bar :-(19:01
micahcowanSomeone mind reminding me what the "patching system" where the source package rules consist of actually extracting a tarball and patching that (I know Vim uses it, for example)?19:01
qensewikipedia: "Drepper is known within the free software community for his confrontational style"19:01
Keybukcjwatson: indeed19:01
KeybukI think we're reaching Max Mosley levels of un-necessary red tape bondage at this point19:02
cjwatsonmicahcowan: there are a number of them, including dbs, at least one of the ones in cdbs, and a variety of semi-hand-rolled systems19:02
cjwatsonvim only build-depends on quilt, but IIRC it has a hand-rolled system based on it19:02
brooniemicahcowan: Are you thinking of dbs?19:02
micahcowandbs... perhaps that's the one.19:02
cjwatsonI don't think vim uses anything stock19:03
RainCTzyx386: I explained how to get it working on the bug (bug 212980)19:03
ubotuLaunchpad bug 212980 in gnome-ppp "HuaWei E220 and is unknow!?" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/21298019:03
micahcowancjwatson, hand-rolled... maybe. But it had a name, and was used in at least one more package, IIRC.19:03
cjwatsondbs may well be what you're thinking of19:03
micahcowanprolly. Thanks!19:03
qenseis bug 214622 a bug?19:04
ubotuLaunchpad bug 214622 in gnome-system-tools "Can not change username in users-admin" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/21462219:04
qensebecause changing your username would require a lot of changes19:04
RainCTqense: a bug surely not, at most a feature request19:05
qenseyeah, we thought that too, but we wanted to check it with the developers19:05
qensebecause a lot of files will need a change19:05
qenseand $HOME19:06
saivannzyx286 : Nevermind, RainCT knows this device more than I do and found what necessary piece of software was needed19:06
saivannzyx386 : Nevermind, RainCT knows this device more than I do and found what necessary piece of software was needed19:06
qenseI'll close the bug and forward him to brainstorm? ;)19:07
james_wqense: you could file a feature request upstream perhaps.19:08
qenseso that would make it wishlist and add a bug watch19:08
james_wqense: yeah, wishlist is the easy part :-)19:09
qensebut what about user rights?19:10
qenseIs the ownership per ID or per username?19:10
james_won the filesystem?19:11
RainCTqense: by id19:12
qenseok, thx19:12
qensean interesting thought about this bug just popped up when I commented it19:15
qenseit could be a bug caused by policykit19:16
zyx386RainCT: thanx for your answer i test it. thanx all19:16
cody-somervilleqense, Why not check the upstream changelog?19:18
cody-somervilleqense, Then you'd know if it was done on purpose or not.19:18
qensesomeone found this: gtk_widget_set_sensitive (widget, (login == NULL));19:18
qense(james_w's work)19:18
qenseit means that is only editable when not set19:18
qensebut we're not sure if that has been added recently or is new19:19
qenseit was disabled in revision 4018!19:22
qense        * user-settings.c (user_settings_dialog_new)19:22
qense        (user_settings_dialog_get_data): disallow changing login name.19:22
qense        * group-settings.c (group_settings_dialog_new)19:22
qense        (group_settings_dialog_get_data): ditto for group name.19:22
qenseI thought the link was still at cliboard19:22
RainCTthen it's a "I want that feature back"-request ^^19:25
qenseI'm going to mail the developer to ask why it has been removed and decide afterwards if it deserves a feature request19:27
slangasekkeescook: I need a paranoid's opinion19:53
calchello :)19:54
keescookslangasek: haha.  I'm honored/offended.  ;)19:55
emgentheya calc :)19:57
slangasekkeescook: :)19:57
slangasekkeescook: we're converging on being able to have authenticated filesharing enabled out of the box for hardy after all, but the trade-off is of course that you have to have something creating and keeping NTLM hashes up-to-date19:57
slangasekkeescook: so you now have not one, but two password hashes for each user, weakest link, etc., etc.19:58
keescookNTLM? ewwwww.  isn't that unsalted md4?19:58
slangasekkeescook: from a security standpoint, is it acceptable to you that we do this by default?19:58
slangasekno, that's LanMan19:58
keescookokay, less panic.19:58
slangasekwhich, with the current samba package settings, we don't create at all by default19:58
slangasek(even though smbpasswd supports it)19:58
keescookwhat is the underlying hashing system for NTLM?19:59
slangasekhrm, it's the same as whatever that AD-specific krb5 enctype was... let me check :)20:00
slangasekI believe it's arcfour-hmac-md520:00
slangasekso, "md5"20:00
keescookthe shadow file is currently 2-byte salted sha1, IIRC20:01
slangasekit is? when did it change from md5?20:02
* keescook checks... it's been a while since I really looked at this20:03
slangasekall the passwords I have on hand still use the $1$ signature that was supposed to denote md5 passwords20:03
jdstrandkeescook, slangasek: NTLM is md4 and NTLMv2 is md5 according to: http://www.ubiqx.org/cifs/SMB.html#SMB.820:03
keescookyeah, I'm trying to find the $N$ table...20:03
keescookjdstrand: oh, hm20:03
keescookslangasek: ah, yeah, you're right, $1$ is md5.20:03
slangasekjdstrand: that refers to differences in the wire protocol; there are no different NTLM vs. NTLMv2 hashes20:03
keescookso, shadow is 2byte salted md520:03
slangasekI'm still looking for the salting info20:04
jdstrand(I see that in that link as well-- further down)20:05
slangasekkeescook: right, I don't see any evidence that NTLM is salted20:05
slangasekkeescook: so yes, it's weaker20:06
keescookslangasek: yeah, I'm not happy with that.  (e.g. I'm currently almost done generating a rainbow table that can crack all alphanumeric (with some special characters) md5 strings 7 or fewer characters.)20:06
keescookonly root would have read-access to it, I assume?20:07
slangasekthe alternative is that we can install libpam-smbpass the same time we install samba if someone wants to enable filesharing, but that's not as seamless because someone has to go back and populate the hashes for any users they want tou se for sharing20:07
slangasekcorrect, root-only20:07
slangasek(not even group shadow)20:07
LaserJockis pitti on vacation?20:07
keescookLaserJock: he's at a conference in US timezone.20:07
=== thegodfather is now known as fabbione
LaserJockdoh, right20:08
LaserJockhe's in Texas20:08
slangasekkeescook: so, "not happy", but if the desktop team said it was the right thing to do...?20:08
lagacjwatson: you havent looked at the mythbuntu seeds by any chance?20:09
slangasekand btw, the reason it's not salted is because the passwords are hashed by the client before being sent across the wire with a separate, unique server-provided salt20:09
keescookslangasek: so, my basic objection here is that by providing default interoperability to what are fundamentally a proprietary systems, we reduce the security of Ubuntu as a whole, for everyone, even those that stick entirely to networks of free software systems.20:10
slangasekit's also the only way to be able to browse from one Ubuntu system to another using Places -> Network :)20:11
keescookI realize samba is used by Free systems, too, but to force a lowered standard of password protection as a whole due to limitations imposed to remain compatible with windows makes my skin crawl.20:11
keescookI mean, I don't want to be difficult, it's clearly a great feature, but making it the default is unpleasant.20:12
slangasekbut, if anyone installs the samba package, we're ok to pull in the automatic password sync stuff?20:12
slangasek(i.e., pulls it in via nautilus-share or installs the filesharing task on a server install)20:13
keescookI think that's a reasonable trade-off, but I'd like to to be noted somewhere non-obscure.20:13
lamontApr  9 09:20:20 mix nagios2: Warning: A system time change of 1 seconds (backwards in time) has been detected.  Compensating...20:13
lamonthow very, um, odd.20:13
lamontI keep seeing those.20:13
lamontthank you hardy.... NOT20:13
ion_lamont: cat /var/lib/ntp/ntp.drift20:13
keescookslangasek: i.e. "installing this reduces the security of your on-disk password storage".20:13
keescookthough, of course, that's just another "Ok" box that people click without reading, so maybe not20:14
slangasekkeescook: right, plus users have always had to do that anyway (and we /know/ no one's setting separate Unix and Samba passwords for their users... :), it was just harder to get to that point20:14
keescookslangasek: perhaps a note saying "Since NTLM password storage is less secure than Linux passwords, you will need to reset passwords for any uesrs that you want to share files from."20:15
keescookso, by default, "no, please", and on-install, "okay, ew"20:16
slangasekbut yeah, I realize it's a bit unpleasant to have to have a second password hash on the system, I just wanted to gauge your feel for the unpleasantness since I have a long-running bias :)20:16
slangasekheh, but that's not true, it's not *because* it's less secure that you have to reset them... :-)20:16
keescookslangasek: heh.  what's your opinion about it?20:16
lamontion_: -95.73720:16
slangasekalso, it's not true because I'm so evil that users won't have to have their passwords reset, they'll just have to log back in. >:)20:17
keescookslangasek: true, but some note about it would be handy since it won't work for them until they change their password20:17
lamontinterestingly, they are new to hardy AFAIK20:17
keescookslangasek: ah, cool.20:17
* keescook uninstalls samba20:17
slangasekkeescook: my opinion is that the usability of having it work out-of-the-box outweighs the security risks of having the additional root-only password store, weaker passwords or not20:18
slangasekkeescook: I mean, I've been known to speculate about *replacing* /etc/shadow with /var/lib/samba/passdb.tdb, so :)20:18
ion_lamont: That's not a very small drift, so ntpd has to compensate quite a bit. Perhaps nagios has just began to track that.20:18
slangasekkeescook: heh, uninstalling samba because I'm evil or because you're done poking at this? :-)20:18
lamontI supposee20:19
keescookslangasek: evil evil!  ;)20:19
slangasekcjwatson: ping20:20
slangasekjdstrand: also ping20:20
keescookslangasek: yeah, my paranoia doesn't agree -- I can't currently crack an /etc/shadow entry in 2 minutes, but I could do it for an otherwise "relatively safe" NTLM password20:20
ion_lamont: That's >4 minutes of drift per month.20:20
jdstrandslangasek: pong20:20
keescookslangasek: though it has taken a team of 6 people 2 months to generate the 500G worth of rainbow tables.  ;)20:20
jdstrandkeescook: but once done, they are 'done'20:21
lamontion_: yeah, 4:08.8 min/30 days20:21
jdstrand(and thus handy)20:21
slangasekjdstrand: hi, if I'm changing the default contents of /etc/pam.d/common-{auth,password}, does auth-client-config need any changes to cope?20:21
keescookjdstrand: right.  and it's not outside the realm of possibilities for botnets to have a central "look up this md5" server.20:21
jdstrandslangasek: no20:22
lamontOTOH, ntp used to not step unless time got kinda really wacko20:22
slangasekjdstrand: ok20:22
lamontintarwebs FTL20:22
jdstrandslangasek: it just looks in those files and sees if it has ever managed them20:22
jdstrandslangasek: if it hasn't it does one thing, if it has, another20:23
slangasekjdstrand: ok.  if it has managed them, it replaces them wholesale though, right?  so if there were "recommended" changes to the set of default modules, those /should/ be reflected in the alternate configs provided by auth-client-config...?20:23
jdstrandkeescook: and might I say that your 'skin crawl' statement was rather eloquent?20:23
ion_lamont: Are there "ntpd.*time reset" messages in daemon.log?20:24
lamontion_: there's a "oops the intarwebs went splat and so I resynced when they came back" entry. :(20:24
jdstrandslangasek: if a-c-c has never been run on the files, then it comments out the existing entry in a way that can be undone, and then puts in its changes20:24
awen_if anybody is using kubuntu hardy and have time for it... please test kde-guidance-powermanager from https://launchpad.net/~andreas-wenning/+archive , it has added support for showing power consumption when on battery; please tell if it works for you (or not)20:25
slangasekjdstrand: my point is that it would be advisable for the "changes" that a-c-c puts in to also have the "optional smbpass" support..20:25
jdstrandslangasek: if a-c-c has touched the files, then the commented section would not be touched, and changing the profile updates the uncommented parts20:25
keescookjdstrand: heh, thanks.20:25
* awen_ go hiding ... wrong channel, sorry20:26
jdstrandslangasek: a-c-c ships a cracklib profile for pam_password, and an ldap example and kerberos example20:27
jdstrandslangasek: are you saying you would like this updated?20:27
mdkeBalaamsMiracle: once a release, normally.20:27
mdkeBalaamsMiracle: anything more than that is a bonus20:28
slangasekjdstrand: if we're going to include pam_smbpass as an optional module by default, then using a-a-c shouldn't regress that integration, right?20:28
mdkeBalaamsMiracle: we will do at least one import after release in -updates though20:28
jdstrandslangasek: let me put it this way-- you update the pam files, user runs a-c-c, there is not problem.20:29
jdstrandslangasek: a-c-c only ships 2 example profiles and the cracklib profile20:29
jdstrandslangasek: if pam_password is changing in the default, then I think that profile should be adjusted20:30
jdstrand(that's the cracklib one)20:30
jdstrandslangasek: can smb_pass be used with cracklib?20:30
slangasekjdstrand: er, it is a problem, because the default is going to support pam_smbpass syncing and none of your profiles will... :)20:30
slangasekyes, pam_smbpass is entirely stackable20:31
jdstrandslangasek: then like I said-- the cracklib one should change20:31
slangasekwhy shouldn't *all* of them change?20:31
jdstrandslangasek: the other are clearly noted as examples, but I wouldn't mind changing them accordingly20:31
jdstrandslangasek: I think we were talking about different things20:32
jdstrandslangasek: but I now know what you want20:32
jdstrandslangasek: just tell me what you want and I'll do it20:33
jdstrand(how is that for easy-to-work-with ?)20:34
slangasekjdstrand: to port the patch from bug #208419 to the a-a-c profiles :)20:34
ubotuLaunchpad bug 208419 in pam "Integrate samba password in PAM" [Wishlist,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/20841920:34
jdstrandslangasek: I don't see that common-password has an updated 'Alternate strength checking for password'20:38
jdstrandslangasek: (ie the cracklib part)20:38
jdstrandslangasek: I assume 'requisite' is fine there as well?20:38
jdstrandslangasek: I take that back20:39
jdstrandslangasek: this should be ok:20:39
jdstrandpam_password=password required       pam_cracklib.so retry=3 minlen=8 difok=320:39
jdstrandpassword requisite       pam_unix.so use_authtok nullok md520:39
slangasekfollowed by "password optional pam_smbpass.so [...]", yes?20:40
jdstrandoh right, yes of course20:40
slangasekthen it looks correct to me, yes20:42
jdstrandok, I'll make the adjustments20:42
jdstrandslangasek: the ldap_example and kerberos_example are a bit more involved: http://paste.ubuntu-nl.org/62673/20:44
BalaamsMiraclemdke: Thanks for the info. I think i've got all my questions answered (although if i could have had my way, the documentation translations would be updated once a month or so :-) )20:44
jdstrandslangasek: I'd just assume not change them20:44
slangasekmvo: 213482 isn't fixable in slapd, the issue is that slapd's dependencies have been removed before the preinst of the new package runs, making it impossible to get a reliable dump of the old db...20:45
jdstrandslangasek: they are meant to be jumping off points anyway and I know that they work in at least one configuration-- if I add pam_smbpass, I won't know that this is still true :)20:45
mvoslangasek: yeah, I figured that20:46
slangasekjdstrand: fair enough, I'll kill those off in intrepid with the reorged pam support then :)20:46
slangasekmvo: before or after you assigned the bug to slapd? :-)20:46
jdstrandslangasek: I look forward to it20:46
mvoslangasek: slightly after that, I just checked the chroot to see what fails. do you have a plan already how this can be fixed?20:47
slangasekmvo: I have no idea, is there some way that update-manager can fix it by upgrading slapd earlier?20:48
slangasek(before the libs get pulled out from under it)20:49
mvoslangasek: unfortunately not, it can not modify the ordering that libapt calculates20:49
cjwatsonlaga: I think I thought I had finished the review. What were you still waiting for from me? (Hm, a tasksel upload maybe?)20:50
cjwatsonslangasek: yo20:50
cjwatsonRiddell: ubiquity r2619 seems like the wrong approach. Why would we want to *add* explicit sizes (that will break with font changes, different languages, etc.)?20:51
cjwatsonRiddell: if the widget set isn't making it big enough, surely that's a widget bug20:51
cjwatsonRiddell: or else there are *too many* explicit sizes constraining it to be smaller20:51
slangasekcjwatson: hi, would you mind eyeballing the patch in bug #208419 so I can be assured I'm not overlooking anything due to crossed hats?  Tried to grab pitti for it, but Texas isn't doing much for his availability :)20:52
ubotuLaunchpad bug 208419 in pam "Integrate samba password in PAM" [Wishlist,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/20841920:52
cjwatsonRiddell: the use of gettext _("Next") in r2620 isn't great either - it should be using the debconf translation for that20:52
cjwatsonRiddell: maybe the messagebox in question_dialog should have set_icon done on it to give it the question icon?20:53
cjwatsonslangasek: ok, queueing up20:53
cjwatsonoh god, do I have to remember what the difference between required and requisite is?20:53
slangasekrequisite = terminate the stack on failure :)20:54
cjwatsonworst naming ever20:54
mvoslangasek: so the problem is that the database format changed and that is why the database needs to be dumped/reloaded? and the new slapcat can not read the old format?20:54
slangasekmvo: correct; we've always relied on the preinst being able to use the binaries from the previous version, and there've never been issues with this before now20:55
cjwatsonslangasek: it'll cause some log noise if pam_smbpass.so is missing, won't it? (minor)20:57
LaserJockslangasek: are you gonna have any time today to look at flashplugin-nonfree sitting in gutsy unaccepted queue?20:58
cjwatsonslangasek: so the change to requisite is so that pam_smbpass is invoked even on failure? Is there any possibility that this might cause unexpected things to happen in other auth stacks, which might now have later modules invoked when they weren't previously?20:58
slangasekcjwatson: surprisingly no noise if pam_smbpass is missing; I had assumed the same before, Petter Reinholdsen pointed out that it doesn't21:00
cjwatsonhmm, sure I remember that in the past; ok then21:00
slangasekLaserJock: questionable; is it something another archive admin could poke?21:00
slangasekcjwatson: the change to requisite is so that pam_smbpass is *not* invoked when the previous module fails21:01
slangasekthe behavior of 'required' is to continue processing the stack, which we don't want because that would set wrong passwords21:01
LaserJockslangasek: well, I asked seb128 and he said he didn't really want to do and suggested you or pitti21:01
cjwatsonslangasek: apparently I can't read21:01
cjwatsonok then21:01
infinityslangasek: Looks correct to me, FWIW.21:01
infinityslangasek: (I used to do something similar at an old place of employ)21:01
cjwatsonthe ordering in /usr/share/doc/libpam-doc/html/sag-configuration-file.html is confusing. I'd have got it right had requisite been above required, since it's a "harder" failure.21:02
slangasekLaserJock: rats; understandable, but inconvenient timing21:02
LaserJockit's just after the disaster last time with flash I thought I'd try to get a 0-day SRU through21:02
lagacjwatson: i was basically wondering how to get the stuff in 'common' included on the alternate disk w/o installing it with the other tasks i've added.21:02
LaserJockbut it's gonna take at least 1 day just to get it into -proposed21:02
cjwatsonslangasek: and yeah, assuming that the pam_smbpass.so options do the right thing, it looks good to me21:02
seb128LaserJock: I'm back, but I'm still not comfortable accepting a new version into stable21:02
slangasekcjwatson: thanks, throwing it into the real world then :)21:02
LaserJockseb128: no problem, I understand21:02
LaserJockI just need *somebody* that is comfortable :-)21:03
seb128LaserJock: usually we don't get new version there and it's not clear to me it's a good idea21:03
LaserJockseb128: it's a new version in name only21:03
LaserJockall we did is update the md5sums21:03
slangasekseb128: it's flashplugin-nonfree, there are no good ideas :)21:03
seb128slangasek: right, better to not touch this thing ;-021:03
LaserJockit's got a new upstream version because the version reflects the version of flash that's being downloaded21:04
cjwatsonlaga: should be included on your alternates already by virtue of ship inheriting from common21:04
seb128I could just accept the thing, but I don't want take responsability for whatever regression it can introduce21:04
LaserJockseb128: for proposed it's not the archive admins responsability21:04
seb128the bug going on a zillion pages doesn't make thing easier21:04
seb128LaserJock: not really true, it's somewhat the responsability of whoever approve the update21:05
LaserJockand I approved the update21:05
seb128whoever press the button if you prefer rather ;-)21:05
LaserJockbut for -proposed? I don't see any risk21:06
seb128it's still something pushed to some users21:06
seb128it should not be obviously broken21:06
LaserJockand that's why I can understand the objection21:06
seb128and I don't know how to judge the changes between what gutsy has now and the update21:06
LaserJockseb128: did you look at the debdiff?21:06
mario_limonciellslangasek, i was just discussing this with cjwatson, it would appear that dvds suddenly aren't including all the lang packs in the livefs.  compare http://cdimages.ubuntu.com/dvd/20080409/hardy-dvd-i386.manifest and http://cdimages.ubuntu.com/dvd/20080408.1/hardy-dvd-i386.manifest21:06
seb128so I don't feel comfortable pushing that to users21:07
seb128LaserJock: the debdiff doesn't tell a lot about what changed in the new flash version21:07
seb128and no I didn't yet21:07
seb128but I expect the debdiff not being an issue21:07
seb128that's rather the closed source version update which is21:07
slangasekmario_limonciell: I'll bet that's my fault21:07
LaserJockseb128: well, there's not much you can do about that21:08
mario_limonciellslangasek, well was it "intended" to go that way?21:08
LaserJockI don't think anybody expects the archive admin to test the flash version21:08
mario_limonciellor accidental then21:08
seb128I can decide to not accept an updated version to stable ;-)21:08
slangasekmario_limonciell: oh, which lang packs do you see as missing though?  the diff shows me version differences, mostly?21:08
LaserJockseb128: I'm saying you can't look at the flash source to see what changed21:08
slangasekmario_limonciell: ah, language-support-*21:08
seb128that's why I'm not comfortable accepting it21:08
slangasekmario_limonciell: check the bzr log for the seed, there's a glowing arrow pointing at my mistake :-)21:09
mdkeBalaamsMiracle: I'm afraid that's impossible - too much work is required to correct all the translations21:09
LaserJockseb128: I had multiple people test it in Firefox and Konqueror before uploading it21:09
mdkeBalaamsMiracle: maybe in the future21:09
LaserJockseb128: but I understand your objection certainly21:09
LaserJockbut we *do* need to get somebody who can approve it21:10
slangasekseb128: under the circumstances, I would tend to favor getting it into -proposed sooner rather than later, but I'm also not jumping up to push the button myself :)21:10
mario_limonciellslangasek, ah rev no 1255.  just taking all the language-support- packages isn't a good idea :)21:10
seb128LaserJock: why do we need it in the first place?21:11
seb128LaserJock: I would read the bug if there was not enough to spend one hour reading it21:11
LaserJockseb128: flash install is broken for Gutsy users21:11
LaserJockwe check the md5sum of the dowloaded flash package21:12
LaserJockevery time Adobe does a new release we have to update the md5sum to check21:12
LaserJockotherwise postinst bails21:12
BalaamsMiraclemdke: I didn't realize that after the translations were submitted, more work was needed to correct those again.21:12
seb128they don't keep the previous version available?21:12
LaserJockseb128: nope21:13
seb128somebody should fix the package to display a "version not available" and not break21:13
mdkeBalaamsMiracle: yeah21:13
LaserJockthere's only a "current"21:13
LaserJockseb128: uh, yeah21:13
LaserJockbut as this is a stable release we haven't done that21:13
seb128and in hardy? ;-)21:14
mario_limonciellI personally think a nice warning "this version isn't available", do you want to install it anyway and explain the possible security implications is the way to go21:14
BalaamsMiraclemdke: Woulkdn't it be a good idea to have the admins of the respective translation teams do the correcting?21:14
LaserJockseb128: well, nobody's fixed it in hardy so we had to update the md5sum same way21:14
seb128let me accept the gutsy proposed one21:14
LaserJockseb128: you're more than welcome to submit a patch ;-)21:14
seb128I'm going to be not happy if that breaks21:15
seb128be warned ;-)21:15
mdkeBalaamsMiracle: it's quite difficult to organise that, generally only a few teams are that well organised21:15
LaserJockwell, all I can say is I had 4 people test it before uploadin21:15
_MMA_seb128: Cant be any more broken. It doesn't work now.21:15
LaserJockI'm not going to be happy if it breaks either21:15
slangasekmario_limonciell: a surprising number of DVD builds over the past couple of days, someone tweaking something?21:15
seb128_MMA_: that is not true, crashing the machine is broken where not installing is not really21:15
mario_limonciellslangasek, they kept not being buildable21:16
mario_limonciellslangasek, due to failures of the livefs generation21:16
mario_limoncielldifferent failures each time around21:16
seb128_MMA_: right now it seems to not be installable, which at least doesn't break thing at runtime21:16
seb128_MMA_: no?21:16
mario_limonciellbut they were all transient21:16
_MMA_seb128: That's just being overly cautious and paranoid.21:16
mario_limonciellslangasek, you can purge anything than the last one though, those other ones aren't useful with the old livefs21:16
slangasekmario_limonciell: hmm, but something must've succeeded if there were manifest differences21:17
_MMA_seb128: If this untrust of Flash is so huge we should just just get rid of the package all together.21:17
mario_limonciellslangasek, well look at anything before the last one, it uses the livefs from 04-05-0821:17
mario_limoncielland that older manifest consequently21:18
seb128_MMA_: I would not be against that but I guess users would not agree ;-)21:18
mario_limonciellso it was just the very last one that finally had a good livefs21:18
slangasekmario_limonciell: fair enough21:18
_MMA_seb128: Then we should give them a working Flash in a timely manner. It's been tested by a trusted member. I just dont see why the need for resistance.21:19
seb128_MMA_: because working for one person is different of non broken21:20
slangasek_MMA_: browbeating him for his concerns, /after/ he's already agreed to accept the package, isn't very productive21:21
mvoslangasek: I added some info to the bugreport for the slapd thing. it seems to me that if the libsasl2-modules-$foo would be called libsasl2-2-modules-foo for libsasl2-2 the problem should go away. but I have no idea about sasl so I leave that to the server team21:21
_MMA_slangasek: We're all friends here. :) This goes to deeper issues also.21:21
LaserJockseb128: it worked for like 4 people at least with a variety of browsers21:22
LaserJockbut after last time with the konqueror issue it is good to test flash for sure21:22
slangasekmvo: great, thanks21:22
_MMA_It's stunning to me that we've let this wildly important/popular package continue to say broken.21:23
slangasek_MMA_: er, "continue"?  AIUI it's *newly* broken, because adobe has again overwritten the tarball on their website with a new security update?21:23
_MMA_I just feel a little bad every time I have to point people to Medibuntu for a working package.21:23
seb128LaserJock: it could be working for one thousand user it would not mean it's not broken for some others21:23
LaserJockseb128: no but that's the whole point of -proposed21:24
_MMA_slangasek: We should stay up on it then. Issue a new update when they do.21:24
slangasekseb128: but requiring 1001 testers before accepting it into -proposed is not a reasonable barrier :)21:24
Nafallopulseaudio doesn't emulate the microphone or something? my mother can't hear me :-/21:24
slangasek_MMA_: does medibuntu use the same overall packaging?21:24
seb128slangasek: no, but having a diff to read make things easier ;-)21:24
NafalloI would say that's quite a regression in that case.21:24
_MMA_slangasek: Best I can say it works. But I would *think* it would be simular yes.21:25
seb128LaserJock, _MMA_: update accepted now21:27
seb128jdong: around?21:27
LaserJockseb128: thanks a ton21:28
seb128LaserJock: you are welcome21:28
phaeronmmm where did I see you before seb128 .. anyway it was suggested on bug 211252 that I express my concerns here21:29
ubotuLaunchpad bug 211252 in obex-data-server "Cannot recieve files using bluetooth" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/21125221:29
slangasek_MMA_: the flashplugin-nonfree packaging in Ubuntu is lousy, and adobe's policy of overwriting their existing releases is also lousy.  So there's a limit to how much de-lousing can be done here even in theory, but I thought maybe medibuntu had something better rather than just having a policy of blindly applying any upstream updates immediately.21:30
* Caesar hates the name medibuntu, he always thinks "medical" before "media"21:31
_MMA_DOnt know.21:31
slangasekCaesar: I associate it with being "half of a buntu" :)21:31
seb128phaeron: no idea about that one, did you comment on the bug?21:32
phaeronseb128: nevermind that, about the bug , I reported it. I commented on the bug and was very frustrated so I might have sounded rude. Maybe I was sent here to get punished :P21:33
CaesarAny chance I can score a bit of sponsorship for #214770 ?21:33
seb128phaeron: to reply to your question on the bug, ubuntu updated because gvfs and other gnome components required the new obex-data-server21:34
Lutinslangasek: not sure what you're talking about...medibuntu doesn't have flashplugin-nonfree (haven't read the backlog)21:34
seb128phaeron: the issue not fixed, the team is small, overworked, and nobody is looking really at bluetooth issue, you are welcome to send patches though21:34
slangasekLutin: oh, well, ask _MMA_ then21:34
* _MMA_ looks.21:35
seb128phaeron: I can't look at this one I've to bluetooth device to do testing and I've already too much to do on GNOME21:35
phaeronseb128: well everything seems to work with the old version and gnome-obex-server , and yes I'd love to send patches , but I can't seem to find the problem . I asked on #bluez and they said the hcidump means that no services are being offered.21:36
phaeronseb128: although I am sure that all four servers were running.21:36
seb128did you try sending a  bug upstream?21:36
phaeronseb128: and I tried to find any permission denied errors using dbus-monitor because I suspected a policykit issue but didn't find any.21:37
phaeronseb128: yes I did , one sec21:37
seb128does gvfs bluetooth browsing works?21:38
phaeronseb128: yes21:38
phaeronseb128: last time I tried it does.21:38
seb128I'm not going to be really useful there, I've no bluetooth experience, no knowledge of this stack and no device to try21:39
seb128but maybe somebody else has an idea21:39
phaeronseb128: the new hidd replacement bluetooth input server crashes dbus with an out of memory error21:39
phaeronseb128: http://bugs.muiline.com/view.php?id=7021:39
seb128hum, upstream is not responsive either21:40
saivannis it normal that konqueror-kde4 does not have any dbg or dbgsym packages?21:43
mario_limonciellslangasek, how often is the regular DVD cron job supposed to be running?  is it weekly?21:44
slangasekmario_limonciell: bi-weekly21:45
slangasekmario_limonciell: but I'm running another now after (I think) fixing the seed21:45
jdongseb128: yes, sir21:45
=== DreamThief is now known as dreamthief
mario_limonciellon what days then?21:45
seb128jdong: do you plan to get transmission update in hardy?21:46
slangasekmario_limonciell: on days "2" and "6"21:46
slangasekI can never remember cron's base for weekdays :)21:46
=== dreamthief is now known as DreamThief
seb128jdong: the menu item needs to be update to the new upstream version one and we were waiting on you to get an update since you said you would either do that or backport changes21:46
mario_limonciellslangasek, did you already queue that new dvd imm, or you were "about" to?21:46
seb128jdong: if you are not going to, could you get the menu items changed and notify translators? ;-)21:47
slangasekmario_limonciell: already building21:47
mario_limonciellslangasek, er o okay.21:47
jdongseb128: I don't plan the update; I plan on backporting the changes pending when charles_ gets back to me on splitting out his big-glob patch into individual ones21:47
slangasekmario_limonciell: if you have other changes, we can always try again later :)21:47
seb128jdong: could you get the menu item change backport now so translators can work on it?21:48
mario_limonciellslangasek, yeah just ubiquity's noninteractive frontend broke, but i'll just hold off until evand is ready to do another ubiquity upload for now21:48
jdongseb128: is there a bugno for that?21:49
jdongseb128: I assume bug 184238?21:49
seb128jdong: bug #18423821:49
ubotuLaunchpad bug 184238 in transmission "Menu entry should be named "Transmission BitTorrent Client" Instead of only the unclear "Transmission"" [Undecided,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/18423821:49
jdongseb128: ok lemme prep a debdiff21:50
seb128jdong: thanks21:50
seb128jdong: subscribe the main sponsors too ;-)21:50
seb128jdong: other thing, you were asking about NEW approval before?21:50
* jdong wonders why on earth "VF" set it to fix committed 3 months ago21:50
jdongseb128: yeah for backports21:50
seb128jdong: which ones?21:51
jdongseb128: mainly the nexuiz binaries21:51
seb128what distro is that, gutsy?21:52
seb128ok, looking to that21:52
jdongseb128: does the translation team care if I use a patchsys to deal with debian/transmission-gtk.menu? I'm going to need to add a patchsys for the backported patches anyway21:56
slangasekseb128: so, pam is all pimped out now to handle smbpasswd integration; do you want to have a look at bug #208419 as it relates to nautilus-share?21:56
ubotuLaunchpad bug 208419 in ubuntu-meta "Integrate samba password in PAM" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/20841921:56
seb128jdong: the only thing the translation team care about it to have the strings listed in the template and imported in rosetta so not really ;-)21:57
seb128jdong: which means you should make sure that whatever has the _Name and _Comment is changed21:58
slangasekmathiaz: and do you want to weigh in on the proposed change to the samba-server task? (again, bug #208419)21:58
ubotuLaunchpad bug 208419 in ubuntu-meta "Integrate samba password in PAM" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/20841921:58
jdongseb128: it uses debian/transmission-gtk.{menu,mime}... lemme see if the changes have applied logically :)21:59
seb128jdong: no, the must be a .desktop somewhere, GNOME doesn't use those22:00
jdongseb128: oh oops I found it. So those two files don't matter?22:00
seb128jdong: they do for the debian menu and maybe some other environments22:01
jdongseb128: ah, so change both. Got it :)22:01
jdongorig: "Transfer files via Peer to Peer". Does "Transfer files via the BitTorrent Peer to Peer Protocol" sound better or worse?22:02
jdongI think the key word to mention is BitTorrent though this may be redundant22:02
jdong_Comment=Download and share files over BitTorrent22:03
jdongah there we go, upstream's wording22:03
seb128slangasek: what is to change, make nautilus-share install libpam-smbpass and display a warning about the need to restart the session?22:04
slangasekseb128: I believe so, yes22:04
slangasekseb128: do you think this is adequate from a UI perspective?22:04
slangasek(is anyone else doing this kind of thing with nautilus-share yet, or is hardy going to be the awesomest?)22:05
seb128I'm wondering if we should display an extra dialog or just add a warning in the current one about the need to restart the session after the installation22:05
seb128(somebody told me that novell is using nautilus-share but I've no idea if they have pam integration)22:06
slangasekmy feeling is that it should be a dialog displayed after samba is installed22:07
seb128right, that's my opinion too22:08
jdongseb128: ok ums subscribed22:18
seb128jdong: thanks22:18
jdongsure. thanks for your help :)22:19
slangasekmvo: just glancing at the package, it looks to me like re-adding a libsasl2 transition package should be enough to fix this?22:22
mvoslangasek: hm, possible, let me check. I was thinking of this too, but for some reason I discarded it (maybe because it was too easy :P)22:23
slangasekmvo: heh :)22:23
slangasekmvo: well, libsasl2 -> libsasl2-2 was a gratuitous rename, so I think it should be sufficient22:24
mvolet me test, if that is sufficient, I will just upload (change is simple enough)22:26
mvoslangasek: that seems to be indeed enough, the upgrade works with it, I upload now, someone will have to NEW it22:38
slangasekno problem :)22:38
mvothanks slangasek!22:38
=== kitterma is now known as ScottK2
saivanntedg : Since you are actually assigned to bug 201626 and that Hardy RC will be ready in a few days, can you look if you can upgrade xscreensaver, and if you can't please demote braid from the xscreensaver package since it cause serious crash with the majority of the graphic cards23:05
ubotuLaunchpad bug 201626 in xscreensaver "please merge xscreensaver 5.04-4 from Debian unstable main" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/20162623:05
saivanntedg : Don't hesitate to ask if I can do something to assist you in this task, thanks for your work23:05
cody-somervilleHobbsee, ping23:12
tedgsaivann: Yes, I'll do it tonight.23:12
saivanntedg : Thank you very much for this23:13
mario_limonciellslangasek, actually it looks like that livefs build didn't pass: http://people.ubuntu.com/~ubuntu-archive/livefs-build-logs/hardy/ubuntu-dvd/20080409.1/livecd-20080409.1-i386.out23:16
cody-somervilleslangasek, I'm pretty sure that Martin and Sarah approved the Abiword FFe in our discussion.23:19
slangasekmario_limonciell: ah, fun.  well, that's tracked on http://people.ubuntu.com/~ubuntu-archive/testing/hardy_probs.html then23:20
slangasekcody-somerville: the place for a release team member to approve an FFe is in the bug log, which wasn't done23:20
mario_limonciellslangasek, ah didn't realize it existed23:20
cjwatsonany chance that somebody could look at http://revu.tauware.de/details.py?upid=2177 ? (ttf-ubuntu-title, pulling together the divergent work that's been happening for ages)23:51
Siliciumwww.opensnom.org - the Open Snom Implementation23:52
azeemSilicium: are you spamming?23:55
Siliciumiam search interessting peoples :)23:56
azeemyou pasted that link in both #debian and here, I've notified the network ops to kline you23:56

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