=== Andres_ is now known as RoAkSoAx
DPichere for the marketing team meeting?00:02
DPicawesome, anyone else arrived yet? we'll wait a few more minutes00:02
hostagexandoxhaven't been involved before so i may not say much...00:02
DPicno problem, but please don't hold back if you ever have an idea00:03
DPichow did you hear about this meeting?00:04
hostagexandoxbasically i googled "ubuntu marketing"00:05
DPicoh haha cool00:05
DPicare you already involved in a LoCo?00:05
hostagexandoxwell there's only one for the entire contry of australia that i know if00:06
DPicare you in it?00:07
DPici have no idea where everyone is. a reminder was sent out and everything00:11
tycheI am here00:14
DPicah, great00:15
beunoand here  :)00:15
tycheSo?  Where is everyone?00:15
beunolet me try something...00:15
DPicooh they're popping up like daisies in the spring!00:15
beunojenda?  :)00:15
DPictyche: late, i guess00:15
tychejohnc4510 may not make it.  Family problems.00:15
beunowhere there topics proposed for the meeting?00:16
beunonot much there  :)00:18
beunothe main idea behind these meetings is getting the team rolling again, right?00:18
DPicbeuno: that's correct00:19
beunoI'm sorry I missed the previous meetings00:19
DPicbeuno: no problem. glad to have you here now :)00:20
beunoIMHO, _the_ problem currently is that the team doesn't have a very well layed out purpose00:20
DPici think it does00:20
beunoand the team lead is MIA00:20
DPici've sort have been taking care of things lately00:20
beunoDPic, I've seen, and I'm glad you have00:21
DPici think we just need more delegates from locos00:21
DPicwe need to get more loco's involved so i was going to send out meeting alerts to the loco-contacts list00:21
beunoDPic, I think that to get the team active again we need 3 things:00:22
DPicabout out teams purpose, i think i outlined it pretty well on the wiki00:22
beuno1) Outline who we're aiming at. Canonical does a lot of marketing, and it doesn't make sense to overlap with them00:22
beuno2) Draw up very specific tasks and objectives and have people actively pursue them00:23
beuno3) Have a nice talk with the Canonical folks so we can find a way to work together00:23
DPicThe first and primary mission of the Ubuntu Marketing Team is to resolve  Bug #1 - We work to market Ubuntu to more people. We are the central marketing hub to provide resources and materials for individuals and LoCo teams. We coordinate and organize marketing efforts across teams around the world.00:23
DPic--from the wiki00:23
beunoDPic, right, but that's a bit too broad, as we don't, for example, but advertisement in billboards00:24
beunoas an example00:24
beunoit should be discussed00:24
beunobut I believe the team should be the main coordinator for all marketing material, and coordinate LoCos to pass on information00:25
DPicwell i envisioned us as organizing marketing effots like projects and campaigns00:25
DPicbeuno: yes, that's one of the main jobs of the team00:25
beunoI think we have previously failed in reaching out to the LoCos00:26
beunoand organizing the currently available marketing material00:26
beunoin part, due to tecnical limitations on where and how to store it00:26
DPicit was mroe of a free for all before where people organized their own independent projects00:26
DPicthere's now a materials page and resources page on out wiki00:27
beunoright, and it worked pretty well for a while00:27
DPicfor a while? they're fairly new00:27
beunoDPic, what is?00:28
DPicthe materials and resources pages on the wiki00:28
beunoDPic, the page is, not the material00:29
DPicwith the exception of the hardy flyer00:29
beunoah, right00:29
beunoI also think we should finish separating the -news team00:29
DPici've requested a forum for us so we'll need a moderator00:30
beunoand coordinate both teams as to be as effective as possible00:30
DPicanyone here think they would be up for the job?00:30
DPicthe -news team?00:30
beunoDPic, yes, UWN, Fridge, Full Circle, etc00:30
beunothose are virtually split up into a new team00:30
DPicoh yeah it would make sense for them to have their own team00:30
beunowho's objective is to inform the community at large00:31
beunothey used to be part of -marketing00:31
tycheAnd wouldn't the CC need to pass on the change?00:31
DPicwould they?00:31
beunotyche, not really, no. We've discussed it to death already, and even have a mailing list/channel/group00:32
DPici don't think so00:32
beunohello cody-somerville  :)00:32
DPici can fix up the new team wiki00:32
beunoanyway, cody-somerville was in -marketing way before me, so he might have some insight too00:32
tycheWhat would a moderator have to do?00:32
* cody-somerville wonders what we're discussing.00:32
* cody-somerville apologizes for coming in late.00:33
DPiccody-somerville: no problem00:34
beunocody-somerville, mainly, how to get the team back up and running00:34
cody-somervilleOoo... Excellent :)00:34
DPici think just asking for at least one person from each loco would be great00:34
beunofor which I tried to describe why I thought it slowly died away00:34
cody-somervilleI was having a discussion about this just the other day with Persia.00:34
beunocody-somerville, and I proposed:00:35
beuno1) Outline who we're aiming at. Canonical does a lot of marketing, and it doesn't make sense to overlap with them00:35
beuno2) Draw up very specific tasks and objectives and have people actively pursue them00:35
beuno3) Have a nice talk with the Canonical folks so we can find a way to work together00:35
* cody-somerville nods.00:35
DPici like out independence from canonical00:35
cody-somervilleWho is the current team lead?00:35
beunocody-somerville, Corey, which is MIA00:35
* cody-somerville nods.00:36
cody-somervilleSo besides Corey, is there anyone everyone would feel comfortable with leading the project?00:36
* beuno thinks it over00:37
* cody-somerville wonders if beuno should nominate himself :)00:37
DPiclol everyone nominates themself00:37
* DPic was thinking the same thing00:38
* beuno wonders if he will have the time/energy00:38
beunocody-somerville, I think we should drag Corey into a meeting and/or email thread about this first00:38
DPicbeuno: that would probably be the best idea00:38
cody-somervillebeuno, What would be the purpose of that dialogue?00:39
cody-somerville /goal00:39
beunocody-somerville, to get some of his insight on the issue, and to not step over him rudly  :)00:39
DPicask him whether he will continue to lead the team00:40
cody-somervilleOh, trust me, Corey is burnt out and has admitted it several times.00:40
cody-somervilleAlthough I don't think we need to "pick" a leader today, I think we do need to identify the core contributors and ask them to champion this revival.00:40
beunocody-somerville, I do, and I know, it just seems like he should be included in this, unless he explicitly doesn't want to00:41
DPicdo we really need a leader? i have myself as a contact on the contact us page00:41
DPicbeuno: you may add yourself as well if you like00:41
cody-somervilleWell, I'm currently an administrator of the team myself but as you know I'm pretty tied up with Xubuntu.00:41
beunoDPic, I'm not sure yet, and, on the other hand, you have been actively pushing this when all I've done is drop into this meeting  :)00:41
cody-somervilleHowever, I think we have enough "authority" at this meeting to make some moving forward decisions :)00:42
DPiccody-somerville: agreed00:42
DPici'll work on setting up the NewsTeam and also to get more teams involved with us00:43
* cody-somerville nods.00:43
DPicdoes anybody have any ideas for hardy or should we move on to discussion about our next project?00:43
beunoI'd personally like to have a nice conversation with some of the Canonical folks to see how we can work *together*, and I'm willing to poke the right people to get that going00:43
beunoDPic, boredandblogging is heading that up, so talk to him first please00:43
DPicheading what up?00:43
beunothe -news team00:44
DPicoh okay i'll talk to him then00:44
cody-somervillebeuno, Is there a contact page to show who is responsible currently for what?00:44
beunoor, at the very least, UWN, which is the biggest burden00:44
DPicwhat would canonical provide for us?00:44
beunocody-somerville, not really, it never got formalised due to lack of interest in -marketing00:44
beunoDPic, I don't know, I just want to make sure we get in sync, as opposed to what used to happen00:45
DPici personally don't think we need acnonical but it sure wouldn't hurt to get in contact with them00:45
beunoit might be what can *we* do for *them*, which, benefits all of us in the end00:45
beunoDPic, it's not about needing, it's about coordinating00:45
DPici see00:45
DPicwould you be able to contact them?00:46
beunothey have marketing campaigns going, and we duplicate a lot of effort if we overlap00:46
beunoDPic, I have half a draft already, I talked to Gerry in london a month or so ago about it00:46
beuno(that's a yes)00:46
cody-somervilleI think one of the best ways we could help market Ubuntu is by producing material to help DIY marketers.00:47
cody-somervilleWe constantly get requests for slideshows and the what not00:47
DPiccody-somerville: that's the purpose of our materials page00:47
beunocody-somerville, yes, and, if we lack people to do so, just gather whatever is around and get it on one place, translated, and publisize where it is00:48
* cody-somerville nods.00:48
cody-somervilleIt seems we need what I'm currently working on for Xubuntu00:49
cody-somervilleA strategy document00:49
beunocody-somerville, do you remember the DIY website?  That would of been what we're wanting today00:49
DPicwhat kind of strategy do we need?00:49
* cody-somerville nods at beuno 00:50
beunocody-somerville, that would be #1 on the list for me today00:50
cody-somervilleLets ask ourselves some questions.00:51
cody-somervilleWhat is our primary goal?00:51
cody-somervilleWhat do we want to accomplish?00:52
cody-somervilleWhere do we want to market Ubuntu?00:52
cody-somervilleWhy do we want to market Ubuntu?00:52
cody-somervilleWhen do we want to market Ubuntu?00:52
beunoI believe we don't actually want to market anything ourselves, that would be the LoCos job, as they have a much better reach then we ever will. We should be the support structure for them to easily market Ubuntu00:53
cody-somervilleDoes everyone agree with that statement?00:53
beunoso, besides providing enough material, we should also coordinate project-wide efforts00:53
DPici think the statement on out wiki covers this00:53
tycheEducation would be helpful, too00:53
cody-somervilleOkay, so it seems like we've already developed a strong sense of what we want to do.00:54
cody-somervilleSo, how do we do that - specifically?00:55
hostagexandoxhaving a "Mission Statement" is one thing00:55
DPicwell i said i'd get more people involved from other loco's00:56
DPicthat wil mean we'll have more people to work with00:56
DPicmore stuff getting on out materials page00:56
DPicand more of those materials being used00:56
beunoIMHO, setup some system to add/search for marketing content easily (DIY Website), and setup a procedure con how to promote specific efforts around the community00:56
* cody-somerville nods.00:56
cody-somervilleOkay, so lets agree that the current project priorities are:00:57
cody-somerville1) Create a DIY website00:57
tycheOne limitation I've run into is posting something to a forum, etc.00:57
cody-somerville2) Develop clear documentation/procedures on how LoCo Teams can market Ubuntu effectively00:58
cody-somerville3) Promote the Ubuntu Marketing team to get more people involved.00:58
DPiccody-somerville: have you seen the LoCoActivism pages i created?00:58
tycheSub head to #3 is to tell them how they can contribute.00:59
cody-somervilleDPic, I haven't. Link?00:59
DPicthey mostly aren't marketing but they have some useful stuff00:59
cody-somervilleLoCoActivisim seems to be the marketing team01:00
cody-somervilleIt pretty much covers point 2 from what I can see.01:00
beunoI agree that 1/2/3 sums it up01:01
DPicwhat do you all think of this idea? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MarketingTeam/Projects/DigitalFreedomFlicks01:02
cody-somervilleDPic, I dunno if it is in the scope of the Ubuntu Marketing Team at this time.01:02
cody-somervilleIt seems we have a hard enough time maintaining the core projects.01:02
DPicokay it seems like it would be a difficult project01:03
DPicwell, i was thinking we could start a campaign to get ubuntu sold in stored01:03
DPicand this was a blog post i was working on for it http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=ajdqhbdzgsdj_1002d86b2kc701:04
cody-somervilleOk, lets drop the current projects listed except for Spread Ubuntu01:04
DPicwould SpreadUbuntu be out DIY website?01:05
beunoDPic, no01:05
beunocould be01:05
beunowasn't the original idea, but I suppose we should merge those projects01:06
DPicseems like it would make more sense if we merged them01:06
beunoDIY was suppose to be a part of spreadubuntu01:06
beunoso DIY was the first step01:06
cody-somerville"website to provide resources for grassroots advocacy"01:06
beunoand spreadubuntu had a much larger aim01:06
DPici see01:07
cody-somervilleOkay. Understood.01:07
DPicwell i'd like to see a site that could be used for any free software project and to promote free software in general01:07
cody-somervilleThat would be nice but out of our scope.01:07
tycheI think that's further on down the road01:07
beunowe wanted to emulate what spreadfirefox had done01:08
DPicwell i don't think it would hurt to start it with that aim even if all of our content is ubuntu in the beginning01:08
=== L1pe_ is now known as lipe
=== lipe is now known as L1pe
beunoDPic, agreed01:09
DPicso could we think of a name that would encompass more than just ubuntu?01:10
DPici've always liked the term "digital freedom"01:10
beunoDPic, I'd rather not get in that deep01:11
cody-somervilleI'm sure we could make the source code available01:11
cody-somervilleand it wouldn't be hard to hard to link to other installations in the future01:11
cody-somervilleHowever, we need to set appropriate goals that are obtainable in our _current_ situation.01:12
* beuno has to run :(01:14
DPicbeuno: alright, thanks so much for coming!01:15
cody-somervilleI need to go to bed as well01:15
cody-somervilleHowever, I think we've made progress01:15
beunome too, we should ping Corey and have a new meeting01:16
DPicthis was a good meeting01:16
cody-somervilleWe've all agreed that getting more user contributed content is important and that we need to make it easier to do just that.01:16
L1pe:( and I missedi it. I couldn't get here erlier01:16
beunocody-somerville, yeap, absolutely01:17
cody-somervilleOnce we get this one big project taken care (DIY), we can then decide on our next big project (maybe some sort of campaign).01:17
DPici think we can handle a letter writing campaign01:17
cody-somervilleDPic, Excellent idea :)01:17
DPici'd appreciate some people's feedback on my blog postt before i publish it though01:18
cody-somervilleSo I assume someone that isn't going to bed can take care of updating the wiki, posting the logs and minutes, etc. etc.?01:18
L1pethat's me01:19
beunoDPic, if you email me the draft, I'll take a look at it in a few hours01:19
L1pecody-somerville: before you wake up, at least.01:20
cody-somervilleL1pe, :)01:20
tycheFYI, -news site is https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NewsTeam01:20
L1pecody-somerville:  np, I would have like to come later and take part of the meeting, but i couldn't.01:21
DPicbeuno: where can i find you email?01:22
beunoDPic, beuno@ubuntu.com01:22
beunoDPic, I'll look now then01:23
L1pewell, is meeting over?01:25
DPicif nobody has anything to add01:25
DPicany last thoughts?01:25
L1pejust to close the log :)01:26
DPic- meeting adjourned -01:26
L1peI will perform my duties in a coupel of hours :)01:26
DPicL1pe: i'll copy the log over since you got here late01:27
beunoDPic, the draft looks awesome :)01:30
beunoI'd punch in a mention on how Photoshop CS3 worhs with wine nowadays01:31
beunoas it's a _major_ step forward for many people01:31
beunobut the rest looks great01:31
DPicis the ending compelling enough to get people involved?01:31
beunoDPic, yes, I think so. I'd also add "support companies who currently offer Ubuntu"01:32
beunoya' know, encourage em to keep on investing01:32
DPiclike who?01:33
beunoDell, System76, anyone else I can't think of  :)01:33
beunoanyway, I'm off for now01:35
beunobut feel free to ping me/email for anything I can help you with  :)01:35
pleaseandthankyois there a good diet softwares? like for a diabetes guy or a healthy living diet software for person who has heart d eases?04:02
lifelessask in #ubuntu please04:05
=== never|mobi is now known as neversfelde|mobi
=== asac_ is now known as asac
* ogra_cmpc yawns 06:58
bryceheya ogra06:58
* asac waves06:58
ogra_cmpchey hey06:58
asachi all06:58
* slangasek moos06:59
* ArneGoetje wipes sweat off his forehead06:59
* TheMuso looks out the window at possibly more rain.06:59
* evand looks out the window into darkness.07:00
Hobbseeah yes, that's why i should leave soonish.07:00
* Hobbsee sees fire out the window.07:00
Hobbseeat least, i wish i did.  It would make things more interesting.07:01
dokogood morning07:01
Hobbseemorning doko07:01
* Hobbsee has done more bug squishing.07:01
james_wmorning all07:01
* ogra_cmpc has done less sleeping07:01
bryceHobbsee: I was going to say, do you live in los angeles or something?07:02
* bryce waves to all07:02
Hobbseebryce: not unless i've moved continents without noticing, no...07:02
Hobbseeand in the unlikely event of that, id' prefer to see Europe, not the US.07:02
bryceHobbsee: not much fire out the window in Europe, but in the US we have either the damnation and brimstone kind on the right coast, or the torching your SUV kind on the left07:04
* slangasek hehs07:04
dokohmm, am I 1h too early?07:05
slangasekI don't think so... :)07:05
ogra_cmpcdoko, i think colin slept in :)07:05
slangasekwell, let's make use of the time, eh?  How's everybody's hardy bugs doing? :)07:05
ArneGoetjemaybe he forgot to switch DST on... :D07:05
slangasekdon't think so, it's the second week of DST for him :)07:06
Hobbseebryce: tasty.07:06
james_wooh, I've got one for ya.07:06
ogra_cmpche was around until 2am (whichis 6h ago)07:06
evandthings look OK, though I have a fair amount that I need to get done later today to be happy going into FinalFreeze.07:06
james_wbug 15362507:06
ubotuLaunchpad bug 153625 in ca-certificates "update-ca-certificates error. ca-certificates.crt empty (with pt_BR locale)" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/15362507:06
slangasekjames_w: "for us"?  Are we still not done with that? :)07:07
james_wpitti was helping with me with it, but as he is away collaborating this week he asked me to find another sponsor.07:07
james_wslangasek: I wish we were.07:07
bryceI put prev/next buttons on http://people.ubuntu.com/~bryce/Xorg/status_current.html, and flipping through the pages, things are definitely going in the right direction for X, but still a few more left to go07:07
* bryce is very thankful for actively involved community members07:10
TheMusoStill got users with pulseaudio issues... Tracking svn to see if there any more useful fixes we may want, and going to see what is being done for fedora 9.07:10
asacTheMuso: firefox + flash-nonfree crashes frequently because of this pulseaudio thing. i suspect that its related to libflashsupport.07:13
asacmaybe there is a libflashsupport update? or fedora has patches?07:13
TheMusoasac: Yeah possibly...07:13
asacTheMuso: without pulseaudio it works great - which is why i never noticed it07:14
TheMusoasac: I'll have a look later. I'll add it to my TODO list.07:14
ogra_cmpcasac, libflashsupport is only needed for networked connections07:14
TheMusoogra_cmpc: How so?07:14
ogra_cmpcpulse works fine without it if you run it locally07:14
asacogra_cmpc: without libflashsupport sound doesn't work ... at least that was reported before someone added it as hard dependency07:14
ogra_cmpcits a workaround for a bug where pulse leaves filehandles open on networked connections that have an alsa endpoint07:15
ArneGoetjeasac: got my message about flash and scim?07:15
asacArneGoetje: yeah.07:15
asacArneGoetje: so the free implementations don't work?07:15
ArneGoetjeasac: correct07:15
ogra_cmpc(have qa look at  the package description, i linked the bug in it)07:16
ArneGoetjeasac: and I suspect that's not a scim problem.07:16
asacogra_cmpc: ogra_cmpc what does "networked connections" meanin this context?07:16
ogra_cmpcasac, non local :)07:16
asacogra_cmpc: i understand what networked means ;)07:17
ogra_cmpcat least thats how i learned about libflashsupport two releases ago ... we should at least run a test without it, i dont think it does anything useful on local connections07:17
cjwatsonugh, apologies I'm late - the alarm clock said it was 6:55 :-/07:17
cjwatsonthanks for starting without me07:17
* ogra_cmpc had his mobile ready to call at :3007:18
james_whi cjwatson07:18
bryceheya cjwatson07:18
asachi cjwatson07:18
cjwatsonjames_w: ouch at 153625 still being active07:18
james_wcjwatson: yep, every time I touch it it seems to get worse, so I'm going to stop poking it so much.07:19
cjwatsonoh, just the double question thing07:20
cjwatsonI think you're doing fine07:20
ogra_cmpcasac, my prob  is that i never tried it outside of ltsp befiore hardy and someone pulled it in as a dep because we use it in ltsp ... but i'm really not sure its relevant if pulse isnt running on localhost07:20
asacogra_cmpc: well ... i had several complains before it was a dep that sound didn't work without it07:21
cjwatsonon my side, there are still quite a few installer bugs on https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/hardy/+bugs which I've been trying to attack07:21
ogra_cmpcasac, well, if you can relate it to that then i think its fine ...07:22
ogra_cmpc(i dont think it does any harm either, it just closes stale filehandles )07:22
asacogra_cmpc: it caues frequent crashes07:22
asacogra_cmpc: just go to youtube and play like 10 files07:23
ogra_cmpcthast what i'm doing every day to test the classmate07:23
ogra_cmpcit doesnt crash here07:23
TheMusoasac: I'll try it later and see what I get.07:23
asacogra_cmpc: maybe its a race you don't see on your system ;)07:23
ogra_cmpcthe OEM team is pretty focused on flash :)07:23
asacTheMuso: yeah ... its reported to happen if you hit back while playing and then forward again . do that until you get a crash07:24
TheMusoasac: Ok.07:25
cjwatsonDo we need to install libflashsupport by default?07:26
asacthats the question07:26
TheMusoI think its only used for flash-nonfree.07:26
cjwatsonor is it the converse, that things get worse when it *is* installed?07:26
asacyeah ... its not installed by default, but its installed whenever you install flashplugin-nonfree07:26
ogra_cmpccjwatson, thast what we're discussing07:26
TheMusoThe only way we'll really know is to play something through pulse while using flash without libflashsupport07:26
cjwatsonah, right, I'd missed the rdepends07:27
asacTheMuso: right. thats the use case that was broken before libflashsupport07:27
TheMusoasac: Right.07:27
ogra_cmpcthe question is, do we *need* to route flash through pulse at all07:27
TheMusoogra_cmpc: If users are playing music and want to play a flash game for example, yes.07:27
ogra_cmpcalsa should handle it directly just fine07:27
TheMusoogra_cmpc: Unless pulse is busy doing something with the alsa device.07:28
TheMusoAnd, pulse talks directly to the hardware, and not through dmix.07:28
asacogra_cmpc: then why do we need pulse? :)07:28
ogra_cmpcTheMuso, i thought we have the dmix backend active anyway07:28
TheMusoogra_cmpc: No. Pulse uses hal to detect sound devices, then interfaces with them directly.07:28
ogra_cmpcasac, for the ding and doing sounds of your desktop07:28
ogra_cmpcright, but pulse is also able to use dmix in the backend07:29
TheMusoogra_cmpc: Yes, but not if you use the hal module, which requires manual configuration.07:29
TheMusoThis is also why some sound cards don't work with pulse. Either because they use a different sample format to what pulse uses, or they have non-standard mixer element n ames.07:30
ogra_cmpcasac, pulse is there because the libgnome devs dont manage to get a gestreamer backend working for libgnome07:30
ogra_cmpcthats the only real reason for it07:30
asacogra_cmpc: damn. and now everyone has to suffer :/07:30
ogra_cmpcthere were patches for libgnome->gstreamer ... i have no idea what they decided for pulse07:31
TheMusoogra_cmpc: Pulse is much more useful than that, but it still has teething problems.07:31
asacactually until pulse appeared i thought that sound servers were scheduled to die :/07:31
TheMusoogra_cmpc: GNOME still doesn't use pulse directly. It uses the esound compatibility layer.07:31
ogra_cmpcTheMuso, it does a job most soundcards can do themselves ...07:32
TheMusoogra_cmpc: Correctino, it does a job that dmix does. Most sound cards can't play more than one sample stream simultaneously.07:32
TheMusoAnyway, we're getting OT.07:32
asacyeah ... -> -devel07:32
cjwatsonRight; are there any other fires people would like to point out in terms of Hardy bug-fixing at the moment?07:33
asacanyway, i think we should consider to drop libflashsupport from depends of flashplugin-nonfree07:33
ogra_cmpcmake it a recommends07:33
TheMusoIs the config file prompt with bash-completion on upgrades known about?07:34
asacogra_cmpc: suggests ;)07:34
ogra_cmpcor that :)07:34
* TheMuso checks for a bug.07:34
cjwatsondamn, I just noticed that but assumed that I had actually edited the file and forgotten about it07:34
slangasekTheMuso: sure, bug #21001307:34
ubotuLaunchpad bug 210013 in bash "bash-completion config replacement prompt on upgrade from gutsy to hardy" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/21001307:34
slangasekhmm, currently unassigned; I think I can squeeze that one onto my schedule later this week if need be07:35
dokoyes, can do this today or tomorrow07:35
slangasekdoko: ok, I'll assign it to you instead then?07:36
brycecjwatson: kees and I noticed a variety of HAL/USB breakages (cameras, scanners, et al) lately.  Maybe this is already known?07:36
TheMusoWell I can reproduce bug 91814, but simply lowering the priority of the question doesn't help, and I don't yet have any ideas at this point... Still looking however.07:36
dokobut where do we want to put the old file, if the upgrade conflicts?07:36
ubotuLaunchpad bug 91814 in openssl "libssl0.9.8 config asking me 'which services should be restarted to make them use the new lbraries?'" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/9181407:36
cjwatsonbryce: do you have any references?07:36
dokoslangasek: I don't care, I'll ping you tonight07:37
slangasekdoko: I believe the customary procedure, if the user has modified the file before it was transferred to the new package, is to let the conffile prompt happen07:37
brycecjwatson: I've one for the scanner (moment), but am just curious in general if there are widespread USB issues or if I'm just special07:38
cjwatsonit isn't something I've heard about, but Ubuntu is too big for me to have heard of everything :)07:38
slangasekbryce: there've been recent (milestoned) bugs regarding scanner detection and permissions, does that sound familiar?07:38
cjwatsonpitti might be better-informed in this case07:38
bryceslangasek: yep!07:38
slangasekyes, pitti's been actively working on scanner-related bugs in hal07:39
cjwatsonthe scanner group was taken out of the system at installation time07:39
* slangasek nods07:39
cjwatsonas in, we used to add the user to the scanner group, but don't any more07:39
slangasekin favor of polkit07:39
brycehere we go, bug #21156907:39
ubotuLaunchpad bug 211569 in hal "xsane won't start unless run as root (Epson Perfection 1240)" [Medium,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/21156907:39
cjwatsonif it's too hard to fix the rest of the system, we could revert that07:39
cjwatsonthough it would need a release note at least07:40
cjwatson(for upgrades from beta)07:40
slangasekthis may fall into the realm of bugs we can't get all the feedback we need in time for release07:40
cjwatsonthat bug was filed from an upgraded system07:40
cjwatsonso surely the scanner group would still have been there07:40
slangasekbecause of the need to identify individual USB IDs that need to be added07:40
slangasekcjwatson: scanner group is still there, but is no longer used for setting the device ownership, so...07:41
bryceI just ran as root and got my tax forms scanned and all is good.  but it surprised me to have that issue.  then I saw my camera also didn't work (which has _always_ worked with ubuntu), which made me think it might be worth bringing up.07:41
cjwatsonright, I was just referring to the installer change07:41
cjwatsonperhaps other people could check whether their cameras still work? I should check mine07:42
TheMusoI should check my scanner also.07:42
slangasekbryce: right, best to discuss this with pitti in the morning (since I believe he's still on US/Central time)07:42
cjwatsonI'll flag it with Keybuk to make sure he's aware07:42
* bryce nods07:42
cjwatsonI agree that releasing with busted scanning and camera support would be pretty embarrassing07:43
cjwatsonok, before we finish, I sent out a link to https://wiki.canonical.com/DistroTeam/Platform/8.10, which has a few general preliminary themes for the 8.10 UDS, and various other bits and pieces I'd like to get cleared up07:44
cjwatsonJorge is going to be contacting participants soon with a summary of the issues we plan to raise, and something akin to a call for papers07:45
cjwatsonDoes anyone have anything else substantial that they'd like to put on that list from the start?07:46
TheMusoI've been pondering doing an a11y review of all our desktop tools, but not sure if it could be done in a cycle...07:46
TheMusoAs in all the tools we've added/written.07:46
dokodropping i486 & i586 support07:47
cjwatsonTheMuso: happy to start somewhere07:47
TheMusocjwatson: Yeah, likely theres not much to be done, but I think it could do us no harm.07:48
evandubiquity visual refresh? (artwork and slideshow), more work towards finishing the espresso spec.07:48
TheMusoAnd theres also changing speech backend for orca, but I don't think thats big/important enough for that page. I will be specing that in any case.07:50
cjwatsonoh, I should say a brief word on how we're doing scheduling for the next UDS07:50
cjwatsonto avoid all the general confusion around it, we aren't going to be using the auto-scheduler07:51
cjwatsonwe will have manually scheduled tracks, as we did the last time07:51
cjwatsonwe will also have a few rooms (I think 2-4 depending on the day) which will be available for whiteboard scheduling07:52
cjwatsona bit like FOSSCamp last time07:52
cjwatsonof course the output should still be recorded in Launchpad, and it does no harm to register a spec in advance in order to set the scope of the discussion you want to have07:52
dokoI'll put python3 on this list, hopefully getting more than one person in this room ...07:58
cjwatsonI'd be interested to know what its performance characteristics are like07:59
dokonot worse than 2.x07:59
cjwatsonok, thanks, I've added the above to the list08:00
cjwatsonand it's time08:00
cjwatsonsorry again I was late, and thanks all08:00
dokoahh, and maybe the whole security related toolchain stuff, but I'll have to talk with infinity08:00
james_wthanks all.08:00
cjwatsondoko: things like PIE you mean?08:00
dokocjwatson: yes, coming with a 10% performance penalty08:01
Keybukcjwatson: hmm?09:48
=== mrevell__ is now known as mrevell
Keybukcjwatson: cameras and scanners permissions should be handled by HAL now09:56
Keybukit'll add ACLs for users based on a PolicyKit that says users on active console sessions (ConsoleKit) get permission09:57
slangasekKeybuk: yes, but currently it doesn't correctly detect all scanners, and evidently there may be issues with some cameras as well09:57
slangaseklooks like bug #195782 is marked as fixed, so at least HP multifunction scanners are supposed to work now09:59
ubotuLaunchpad bug 195782 in hplip "Users not automatically added to "scanner" group: No scanning functions of HP multi-function in Hardy" [Medium,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/19578209:59
slangasekbut bryce mentioned bug #211569, which is an Epson...10:00
ubotuLaunchpad bug 211569 in hal "xsane won't start unless run as root (Epson Perfection 1240)" [Medium,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/21156910:00
=== mrevell_ is now known as mrevell
Keybukslangasek: it detects the list of scanners that sane knows about?10:40
Keybukwe've *ALWAYS* had a huge list of scanners that didn't work10:40
Keybukthe new stuff fixes multi-function at least, since it can have ACLs for both the scanner and printer bits -- instead of needing to be simultaneously in the scanner and printer groups :p10:41
Keybukpitti is the man to speak to, anyway10:42
* slangasek nods10:43
Keybukanother reason for the HAL switch, other than fixing multi-function and it's just the right way10:43
Keybukis that udev matching libusb devices is hard now10:44
Keybuksince depending which kernel you're running, you need different rules10:44
Keybukso it's very hard to have a huge list of matches that work with multiple kernel versions10:44
Keybukwhereas HAL just handled that opaquely10:44
RichEdeducation meeting starts in 2 mins ... get your coffee now !13:01
=== cjwatson_ is now known as cjwatson
stgraberogra_cmpc: What's the name of the option when you insert the Add-on CD to start g-a-i ?13:03
stgraberogra_cmpc: I'm working on the testcase for RC/Final and don't have the add-on CD around13:03
ogra_cmpcinstal extensions or so13:03
ogra_cmpci'm just rsyncing mine13:03
RichEdstgraber: you put a link up the other day re italc in #edubuntu ... lost it due to local power failures13:07
RichEdcan you pop it up again if it is still relevant13:07
RichEdogra_cmpc: regarding the chat earlier about specs for UDS ... and the moving of many of our "education needs" across into the server team ...13:08
stgraberiTalc using the avahi launcher so you don't need to manually add the computers. Note that the key transfer is still required though13:08
ogra_cmpcwe should have a spec for the key stuff13:09
RichEdhow do we handle how do we handle requests from our target audience that fall into that category ?13:09
ogra_cmpcto develop a small gui or so13:09
stgraberindeed, a key transfer UI would be great13:09
ogra_cmpcanyway, background:13:09
ogra_cmpcmy duties are education only now13:09
RichEddo we make a request to the other team(s) ? and manage our target audience expectations and keep them informed ?13:09
ogra_cmpcthat limits my work to be not ltsp,network auth or so ...13:10
ogra_cmpci.e. plain edu stuff13:10
RichEdyep ... noted ... but we are still the interface to our target audience ...13:10
ogra_cmpcthe things i can come up with as specs here are edubuntu-menus and enhancing italc13:10
RichEdjust saying ... oh that is not our department is perhaps not the best way to win them over ...13:10
ogra_cmpcso i need input from the community side on more13:10
ogra_cmpcno, indeed, my job is also to provide a communication path13:11
RichEdso i know you will not do the work on server stuff ... but should we not still be the interface to "our people"13:11
RichEdno answer needed now, but as we get a request that falls into that sort of hand-over, let's come up with a way to manage that communication13:11
ogra_cmpcwe (me) should be the interface to get an initial connection up13:11
ogra_cmpcbut working will be more effective for the server team if they communicate directly13:12
RichEdsome quick education news snippets for those who are interested:13:12
ogra_cmpcso aqll i will do is give guidance and if people need it i'll handhold them13:12
RichEd"9000 computers in Swiss schools have been dual-booting Windows and and Ubuntu for some time now in anticipation of guidelines from the Switzerland’s Department of Public Instruction, whose motto is “Long Live Free Software.”"13:12
RichEd"Beginning this September, all 9000 computers will run only Ubuntu and free and open source software. "13:13
ogra_cmpcstgraber, so any idea for some sweet edu specs ?13:13
ogra_cmpc(dont worry that i wont have enough to work on though, my job has lots of new duties nowadays :) )13:13
stgraberhmm, not a lot being non-ltsp related. iTalc of course will need improvement as it'll be used not only on LTSP setups13:14
stgraberI'm looking forward to the plugin system it will get soon (according to upstream)13:14
stgraberso we will be able to increated things like avahi or LDAP easily inside iTalc itself13:15
ogra_cmpcnice :)13:16
stgraberI'll probably be a bit more busy than I currently am during the end of this school year, final exams and stuff like that (also the reason why I can't stay for UDS)13:16
RichEdhey pips1 :)13:17
stgraberhi pips113:17
RichEdhows the offspring ??13:17
pips1he is very well, thanks :-)13:17
RichEdpips1: see ^ http://education.zdnet.com/?p=161513:17
pips1first tooth13:17
RichEdwow ... that's early ... hope he is not niggling & keeping you up at night13:17
pips1he is niggling a bit, but not much, he is such a nice fella13:18
RichEdpips1: current topic f.y.i. -> propose specs for UDS13:19
RichEdsuggestions ?13:19
pips1re 9000 PCs in swiss schools going ubuntu... great news !13:19
RichEdread the whole article and links ... government mandate to push linux into schools with the view that open source = education13:19
Hobbseetake over the world.13:20
RichEdnot cost saving ... but mindset of a better system13:20
RichEdHobbsee: we already are :)13:20
HobbseeRichEd: any eta?13:20
HobbseeRichEd: (on when it's done)13:20
RichEdsee this also from zdnet13:20
RichEd<RichEd> " However, one thing stands out from all the conversations - the number of people who seem to confuse Ubuntu for Linux.  I can tell because they will either use both terms interchangeably or be using the name Ubuntu in a generic sense.  Moreover, it seems to be confined to Ubuntu.  I’ve not seen the name of another distro used in the same way.13:20
pips1I know folks in the government of geneva who are behind this... we did the trip in silicon valley together, after the ubuntu developer summit in seville...13:21
RichEd^ http://blogs.zdnet.com/hardware/?p=1641&tag=nl.e62213:21
pips1the theme of our trip was "open standards"... they said "Last year's tour was also extremely helpful to shape ideas and give a13:22
pips1positive push."13:22
RichEdpips1: if you can help get a relationship going with them ... that would be great ... we can assist them (like UDS etc.) and they can give us great references and case study13:22
RichEda government level one ... not ground up school by school13:23
pips1sure, I'm happy to make the connection13:23
pips1I'll be spending a whole week with one of the two guys in silicon valley again... in may.13:24
stgraberlet's hope other cantons will follow the learn from Geneva .. for example Neuchâtel :)13:24
* ogra_cmpc sent a request for spec input to the ML13:24
RichEdpips1: Manuel Grandjean, director of the Media Service Schools <- any knowledge of this chap or his department ?13:25
pips1stgraber: fingers crossed :-)13:25
pips1RichEd: nope13:25
RichEdoh also news re Spain ... the guadalinex development company is pitching for molinux ... and proposing ubuntu13:26
RichEdfingers crossed on that one as well13:26
Hobbseeany chance you can get their default channel in their irc clients as #ubuntu-es, not #ubuntu?13:27
Hobbseeditto guadalinex.13:27
ogra_cmpcHobbsee, why would we do that while we're just trying to join up all the communities ?13:28
Hobbseeogra_cmpc: that's a serious question?13:29
ogra_cmpcwe're working towards exactly the opposite13:29
ogra_cmpc(one of the main reasons for edubuntu to become an addon)13:29
ogra_cmpc(with the hope that others follow that path for their derivatives)13:29
Hobbseeogra_cmpc: mainly, because they come in, say 'ola', don't speak english much, demand that we speak spanish instead, and then, once we do get spanish translators, they ask for people's msn addresses to chat.13:30
Hobbseeogra_cmpc: #ubuntu is an english support channel.13:30
Hobbseeit's *not* a multilanguage channel, and I hope it never will be - it's too big as it is.13:30
ogra_cmpcHobbsee, guadalinex users are in the majority kids ...13:30
Hobbseeogra_cmpc: i've got no problem with that, i'm just saying that the default channel choice for it is therefore unsuitable, and if you've got contacts in that area, it would be great to get it changed.13:31
ogra_cmpcso indeed they behave a little "younger"13:31
stgraberHobbsee: an idea would be to have the language-switcher tool change the default IRC channel (if the user has never started xchat)13:31
stgraberHobbsee: not sure how easy that's though (you'd need a list of active support channel for each languages)13:31
Hobbseestgraber: yeah.  that has been thought about, but no one's implemented it in current state.13:31
ogra_cmpcwe lack the infrastructure atm for such automation13:32
Hobbseeogra_cmpc: again, i've got absolutely no problem with the age of the people - it's just that they're speaking spanish, offtopic stuff, in an english, support-only channel.13:32
ogra_cmpcHobbsee, and how do you distinguish them from "other" ubuntu users ?13:32
ogra_cmpc(how do ypou know its only guadalinex users)13:33
ogra_cmpcwe're massively offtopic btw :)13:33
Hobbseeogra_cmpc: all from the same subnet.  whois says that it's in spain, and there are various articles about guadalinex's uptake in internet cafe's, etc, in spain.13:34
Hobbseeogra_cmpc: therefore, it's *likely* to be guadalinex.13:34
ogra_cmpcwell, guessing on IP range or newspapaers isnt really accurate13:34
Hobbseeogra_cmpc: and the 'ola' with no english words after that kinda gives it away...13:34
ogra_cmpci think its simply a general spoanish habit13:34
RichEdrespectfully agree with ogra_cmpc that we are off topic ...13:35
Hobbseethen we'll just forward that entire subnet to -es from our side.  Thanks for your help.13:35
RichEdcan we save this for later ?13:35
HobbseeRichEd: apologies.13:35
RichEdspec's discussion first13:35
RichEdHobbsee: no problem :)13:35
RichEdalso we do not have much control over the ubuntu set-up ... so your request straight to ubuntu peops may be more effective13:36
RichEdogra_cmpc now builds an add on on top of the ubuntu base13:36
RichEdso we're the education desktop only13:36
ogra_cmpcs/control over the ubuntu set-up/control over the guadalinex set-up/ i guess13:36
ogra_cmpcoh, thats what you mean13:36
RichEdand cjwatson manages the relationship with guadalinex and other derivatives13:37
* Hobbsee scratches head over how changing it for ubuntu, not guadalinex, will solve the problem.13:37
Hobbseeright, OK.13:37
ogra_cmpcwell, i see the point Hobbsee has and its fixable in ubuntu (totally not edu related though and just pointiong at guadalinex is wrong here as well)13:37
ogra_cmpcgenerally i agree with her :)13:37
RichEdHobbsee: guadalinex take ubuntu and add on to that ... not edubuntu ...13:37
RichEdbesides off the record ... most of the schools in andalucia run ubuntu native on their desktops13:38
ogra_cmpcsame goes for other parts of spain13:38
RichEdthe guadalinex is deployed more in libraries / public access kiosks / pensioner portals etc.13:39
nixternalwell well well13:39
RichEdgovt civic responsibility13:39
nixternalI woke up early and look what I see :)13:39
HobbseeRichEd: right, i was unaware.13:39
stgraberhi nixternal13:39
RichEdHobbsee: that point is not good to bandy about due to political sensitivities ... but f.y.i.13:39
ogra_cmpcRichEd, so any spec suggestions from the marketing side we should put down ?13:39
RichEdmr nixternal sir ... how's the ubuntu bible ?13:40
RichEdogra_cmpc: i'll scratch around and see what i can come up with ... there are some people i can query13:40
nixternalnext edition is getting a rewrite with possibly separating LTSP into its own chapter13:40
ogra_cmpclets see what i get as return fro the ML request13:41
RichEd\o? <- looks like ogra_cmpc holding up a hand to ask a question and scratching his head13:41
ogra_cmpcnixternal, that would be great, ltsp really needs to be a separate chapter in the future13:41
RichEdogra_cmpc: can we consider "new processes for education requests" as a spec for discussion ?13:42
ogra_cmpcoh, before i forget RichEd can you extend my edubuntu-members membership ?13:42
RichEdlike how users submit & and how we manage requests for new s/w package inclusion ?13:42
ogra_cmpcit runs out tomorrow and even though i'm admin i seem not to be able to extend it for myself13:42
RichEdi know we have processes ... but we need a "follow the yellow footsteps" level for edu people who are non-tech and busy teachers13:43
ogra_cmpcRichEd, brqainstorm.ubuntu.com  covers a lot of that13:43
* RichEd will check ...13:43
ogra_cmpcnot sure how moch wee need extra13:43
stgraberoh, hang on a sec I have a page with some ideas from brainstorm13:44
cjwatsonI do need to get top-level education requests in quite soon, so that we can integrate them into the tracks13:44
ogra_cmpccjwatson, RichEd is aware of the timeframe i gave you13:44
stgraberhmm, it seems to be mainly marketing stuff though13:45
ogra_cmpcweekend is deadline for the initial list13:45
RichEdcjwatson: yep ... we're aware ... i'll propose some generic topics that can be refined if we do not have detail by monday13:45
ogra_cmpc"Encourage Ubuntu preloads in university computer stores "13:45
RichEdmany of the things from my side will be user process related ... not dev specs13:45
* ogra_cmpc wonders what exactly that shal mean13:45
cjwatsonright, which is fine13:45
RichEdthere are existing dev processes to handle requirements ... we need to get our audience understanding how to get things into that pipeline13:46
RichEdlike new packages for main inclusion etc.13:46
RichEdand what that entails from their side when proposing13:46
RichEdone thing sabdfl has been asking for (for a while) is that we build a core group of "teacher test & review & feedback" people13:47
* ogra_cmpc glares at "Default Screensaver Advertising "13:47
RichEdpeople who are more teacher than tech ... and who use the s/w for classroom / learner interaction13:47
RichEdwhat they like and do not like ... and what they would love to have13:47
RichEdthat's a user layer above the usual "how do i authenticate my 100 w/s against XXX and LDAP"13:48
stgraberhttp://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/category/14 seems mainly marketing or community related, not much software inclusion proposal or tech stuff13:48
RichEdsabdfl feels that will win us pull from the educators and not just the push from the admin side13:48
* RichEd agrees13:48
ogra_cmpc"Open Office Extras " seems like something for the addon13:49
RichEdogra_cmpc: any ideas on how we can provide easy links to education resources ... that sort of stuff ?13:50
RichEdnot just as a wiki page link, but somehow direct from the desktop / menu ?13:50
* ogra_cmpc cant belive http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/106/13:51
stgraberRichEd: maybe on the About edubuntu page ?13:51
ogra_cmpcwe surely dont advertise ltsp enough13:51
cjwatsonget things into that pipeline> we would like that to be through developer mediation13:51
cjwatsonbrainstorm is the ideal place for this13:51
ogra_cmpcabout edubuntu and on the edubuntu browser page13:51
RichEdstgraber: well we do not want to blur the line between *buntu and external resources ... so i'd say no at first though13:51
cjwatsonwe don't want to encourage users to write and submit feature specifications directly13:52
cjwatsonthe reason is that feature specifications are detailed software design documents, which fundamentally require development skill and experience to write13:52
RichEdmore like links to education content & education projects ...13:52
ogra_cmpcRichEd, the default browser page is the place13:52
cjwatson(this may be obvious; the reason I stress it is that it has not been obvious in the past)13:53
RichEdwhich we have reviewed, but which are not neccessarily associated with or linked to13:53
ogra_cmpcnot in your face like a first run wizard and not to hidden to miss it13:53
RichEdogra_cmpc & stgraber ... i'm thinking about things that are useful for teachers, and which encourage the teachers to network amongst themselves13:54
ogra_cmpcRichEd, having a like wioth "educational suggestions" in there that points to a page on edubuntu.org13:54
ogra_cmpcso we're not bound to a release with that13:54
RichEdogra_cmpc: yep ... something like that ... and also pointing them to #ubuntu-education13:54
RichEdso that when they install, they feel like they are now part of a community of education people with the same needs & goals13:55
RichEdwhich is quite different to the ubuntu community who build s/w13:55
ogra_cmpcare there actually people in #ubuntu-education at all ?13:55
stgraberthey all are in #edubuntu too :)13:56
ogra_cmpcseems not really used13:56
RichEdogra_cmpc: it goes up and down, but simonanibal and kgoetz always answer people who pop in there13:56
ogra_cmpcwhat about merging edubuntu and ubuntu-education Z?13:56
RichEdthe idea there is that it is about topics above the desktop13:56
RichEdogra_cmpc: that will happen with the name change ...]13:56
ogra_cmpcwith a redirect that moves people to #edubuntu13:56
ogra_cmpc(since there is actually audience)13:56
ogra_cmpc(and knowledge)13:57
RichEdwhich brings me to a spec for 8.10 "what naming & references need to migrate for the Ubuntu Education changes"13:57
ogra_cmpci though that was finalized already13:57
RichEdthere are many in the desktop, & help ... and the whole edubuntu.org & #edubuntu need to be discussed13:58
* ogra_cmpc doesnt understand the last sentence13:58
HobbseeRichEd: forwarding channels is simple enough13:58
ogra_cmpcoh you mean you want to let edubuntu die compeltely ?13:58
RichEdabout edubuntu needs to move to about ubuntu education ... as an example ...13:59
ogra_cmpcnot as long as we install it from the edubuntu-desktop package13:59
RichEdogra_cmpc: nope ... we will keep edubuntu and not just walk away from it ...13:59
ogra_cmpcso keep its docs as well :)13:59
RichEdbut we need to discuss all of this ... not make decisions on behalf of the community\13:59
RichEdso that's why we need a spec for fair and honest debate14:00
ogra_cmpcsounds good14:00
RichEdthere is potential for confusion ...14:00
RichEdthe new audiences we reach out to from now on will be exposed to ubuntu education as the "brand"14:00
ogra_cmpci would object to drop the term edubuntu from the actual edubuntu deoumentation as long as we keep it as a desktop14:00
RichEdwe need to ensure that the edubuntu side is not confusing for them14:00
stgraberindeed, the changes that were introduced with Hardy seem to be quite confusing for a lot of people (CD changes being the main problem of course)14:00
ogra_cmpci'm fine adding stuff for an ubuntu-education edition though14:01
RichEdogra_cmpc: pro's and cons of both ... we need to debate and consider and propose14:01
RichEdhence the need for a spec ... i'll draft and call for comment on a wiki page ...14:01
ogra_cmpceven worse is that people read that http://www.ubuntu.com/products/whatisubuntu/serveredition and try to install ltsp off the server CD sinvce the CD change14:02
ogra_cmpcthe ltsp statements there urgently need to go14:03
ogra_cmpcsince it kleaves you with a totally broken setup14:03
ogra_cmpcwhich generates a sh*tload of support14:03
stgraberI have to go for 20min or so, just wanted to mention : https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/Cases/EdubuntuAddOnCD14:05
stgraberplease fix/update/improve :)14:05
ogra_cmpcheno already  mailed me, i'll go over it before the weekend14:06
* RichEd is back in 5 min ...14:07
ogra_cmpccould we adjourn if everybody leaves ?14:08
Hobbseelooks like you've only got one channel to forward14:09
Hobbseeno others are registered in the edubuntu namespace.14:09
ogra_cmpcwe dont hav eany to forward atm, that was just a suggestion :)14:09
ogra_cmpci thought there were edubuntu-es and -de14:10
Hobbseeif they are, they're not registered, or they're not showing up14:10
ogra_cmpcyeah, -de is there14:10
ogra_cmpci think -de wqas registered through the loco team14:11
RichEdogra_cmpc: i've got no more issues for today ... so adjourning is fine ...14:11
RichEdwill renew your membership in a short while14:12
* ogra_cmpc wonders if RichEd saw his request for extending his edubuntu-members menmbership14:12
ogra_cmpcheh, snap14:12
Hobbseeogra_cmpc: please turn secret mode off, then.14:12
RichEdcrackle & pop ... bang the gong when you are ready14:12
ogra_cmpcjust dont forget it, else i'm no edubuntu member tomorrow14:12
ogra_cmpcgoing once14:12
ogra_cmpcgoing twice14:12
=== ubotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 09 Apr 21:00 UTC: Server Team | 10 Apr 20:00 UTC: Security Team | 11 Apr 12:00 UTC: MOTU | 16 Apr 21:00 UTC: Server Team | 23 Apr 21:00 UTC: Server Team | 30 Apr 21:00 UTC: Server Team
=== beuno_ is now known as beuno
Hobbsee@schedule sydney15:45
ubotuSchedule for Australia/Sydney: 10 Apr 07:00: Server Team | 11 Apr 06:00: Security Team | 11 Apr 22:00: MOTU | 17 Apr 07:00: Server Team | 24 Apr 07:00: Server Team | 01 May 07:00: Server Team15:45
Hobbseehmm, won't make that MOTU meeting.15:45
zulHobbsee: god hates you :)15:45
Hobbseeor australia15:46
* Hobbsee doens't usually have work on fri nights, but does this week15:46
RichEdHobbsee: nope ... that's south african's that hate australia ;)15:46
RichEd(sports joke)15:47
RichEdzul: a game played by men with oddly shaped balls15:48
Hobbseerugby.  bah humbug.15:48
zulRichEd: haha15:49
=== nand is now known as nand_at_work
davmor2hello heno16:57
pedro_hey hey16:57
henohey davmor2, pedro_16:58
bdmurrayhi there16:59
davmor2hello bdmurray, pedro_17:00
henoogasawara_, liw, cgregan, stgraber, jcastro, nand - meeting ping17:01
* ogasawara_ waves17:01
=== ogasawara_ is now known as ogasawara
henoWelcome everyone!17:01
MootBotMeeting started at 18:02. The chair is heno.17:02
MootBotCommands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]17:02
henoAgenda at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/Meetings17:02
heno[TOPIC] ISO smoke testing17:02
MootBotNew Topic:  ISO smoke testing17:02
henoI wrote an email to the QA list about this earlier17:03
henowe'll probably start smoke testing on Friday and those of us who are around on the weekend can continue then17:03
henovolunteers are welcome!17:04
henothese results are not tracked on iso.qa.u.c and are a bit less formal in nature17:04
* davmor2 waves I'll be around friday and some of the weekend 17:04
henobasically try to hammer away at commonly used stuff to shake out bugs early17:05
henoI'll blog and post in the forum as well after the meeting17:06
stgraberheno: you could blog about it on blog.qa.ubuntu.com17:06
davmor2sound like a good plan17:06
henoany other obvious test points we should add to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/ISO/Smoke ?17:06
davmor2stgraber: planet ubuntu would get more coverage17:07
pedro_is the blog.qa.ubuntu.com on p.u.c ?17:07
henothat would be good17:07
stgraberheno: OpenOffice ?17:07
cgreganheno: How about multimedia?17:07
bdmurrayShouldn't Wubi be in the "install" table?17:08
stgraberpedro_: not yet, I'm not sure I can simply add it to planet without asking the sysadmins ...17:08
henoboth good ideas17:08
davmor2heno: I think the only issue I see is with the AD testing I'm pretty sure not many, if at all, have an active directory at home.17:08
henobdmurray: probably, yes17:08
pedro_stgraber: ok17:09
davmor2heno: evolution/thunderbird17:09
henoIs AD a server or desktop team topic?17:09
henoI guess we are looking to test the Gnome support, right?17:10
davmor2pass open likewise isn't that specific17:10
henoOOo, evolution, etc.> major apps do get tested by the community though in daily use17:11
MootBotLINK received:  http://likewisesoftware.com/products/likewise_open/17:11
henothough testing these with empty profiles might reveal issues17:11
davmor2heno: looks like desktop as it joins Linux etc to ad17:12
henook, thanks for the feedback. I'll tweak the page a bit17:13
heno[TOPIC] Taking Brainstorm ideas to UDS17:13
MootBotNew Topic:  Taking Brainstorm ideas to UDS17:13
henojcastro: are you here?17:13
henoI know jcastro sent out an email yesterday to everyone who is signed up to attend UDS, asking them to look at brainstorm and find topics for UDS17:14
stgrabernot only those attending UDS, those attending FOSSCamp too it seems :)17:15
henostgraber: ok, even better :)17:15
henohe set up this page with suggested topics https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UDS-Intrepid/Brainstorm17:15
henobut other topics can be picked too of course17:16
henostgraber, nand_at_work: does this approach seem sensible to you?17:16
henoAre there other things we should be doing in this respect?17:17
stgraberseems to be a good idea, don't know what the result will be at UDS though. I heard of some FOSSCamp like room with a whiteboard for scheduling17:18
emgent@schedule rome17:20
ubotuSchedule for Europe/Rome: 09 Apr 23:00: Server Team | 10 Apr 22:00: Security Team | 11 Apr 14:00: MOTU | 16 Apr 23:00: Server Team | 23 Apr 23:00: Server Team | 30 Apr 23:00: Server Team17:20
henoright, UDS will mix scheduled sessions with on-the-fly scheduling on whiteboards17:20
stgraberWould be good to have some kind of flag on brainstorm so the users know it'll be discussed at UDS (or has been proposed for discussion)17:20
henoWe can add a notice to the devel comment section17:21
davmor2stgraber: it might be better to have a flag for after uds17:21
henowe should also add links to blog posts or mailing list discussions about a topic17:21
henoperhaps a link section that devs and admins can set17:22
henowhich is more general than the spec and bug links17:22
stgrabernote: you can put links in the devel comment17:23
henoyep, we should just institute that as common practice17:23
henook, so that seems on track17:24
heno[TOPIC] Introducing mobile test cases17:24
MootBotNew Topic:  Introducing mobile test cases17:24
henocgregan and davmor2 have been adding and refining UME test cases17:25
henoe.g. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/Cases/UMEdesktop17:25
henoSo now is the time to join in with some cutting edge mobile testing17:26
henoThe interface can be tested in Xephyr and virtual machines17:26
stgraberheno: are they considering using the QA tracker in the future ?17:27
cgreganheno: correction...VM is still a work in progress17:27
henoit's actually very important to do so because since there isn't much mobile HW out there, this stuff gets almost no testing17:27
henocgregan: ah, getting ahead of myself17:27
cgreganheno: Hopefully next week we will have VM17:28
henoI thought you could boot an ISO, but you did mention some X issues17:28
davmor2Xephyr works relatively well currently although not perfectly :(17:28
henostgraber: indeed, probably for Intrepid Alpha 1 or 217:28
cgreganheno: ISO fails to load X so you stop at rc script execution17:29
henostgraber will be at FOSSCamp and cgregan at UDS - I'm hoping there might be a few hours of overlap so you can meet and talk about this17:29
cgreganSounds good17:29
stgraberheno: ok, then we'll probably use another sub-domain for them as I don't think they have exactly the same milestone as we do for ISO17:30
stgrabercgregan, heno: I'm leaving Prague end of afternoon on Sunday17:30
henostgraber: we might want to add a section like mobile.qa.u.c or add a derivative to iso.qa.u.c17:30
henoor perhaps we'll need both17:30
davmor2stgraber: I think the big issue will be that the test is so very different too17:30
henostgraber: the plan is that they will for Intrepid AFAIK17:31
cgreganstgraber: I fly in Sunday morning.17:31
stgraberok, so if they have the same milestones as we do and also use cdimage (which is currently the case) it's possible to use the ISO tracker for UME testing17:32
stgrabercgregan: ok, so it should be possible to have a talk with you :)17:33
henostgraber: mobile has only just gotten bug tracking set up properly (thanks cgregan) and test tracking is next17:34
henothere is also a use case for private test tracking here actually17:34
henofor people doing custom mobile builds17:35
henostgraber, cgregan: we can take the details of this to email and hopefully Prague17:35
stgraberheno: sure17:36
cgreganheno: Definitely17:36
henoin the meantime, everyone is encouraged to play with the mobile builds!17:36
henoany other topics for the meeting?17:36
pedro_not from me17:37
stgraberwe launched http://blog.qa.ubuntu.com, so everyone in the QA team (the Drupal group) can now post blog posts here17:38
stgraberthose have to be related to Ubuntu QA testing or the Brainstorm website though17:38
stgraberI'll ping the sysadmins to see if I can add it to Planet17:38
henoExcellent, I'll try that!17:38
pedro_stgraber: that'd be great ;-)17:38
* pedro_ subscribing to the rss feed in the meantime17:39
henoif it has an RSS feed you can probably add it directly17:39
henoif it's the right format17:39
henothere is already a few non-person feeds like package-of-the-week and LP news17:40
heno*there are17:40
stgraberok, I'll add it to Planet then17:40
henohello liw :)17:40
liwI shoudln't work, I start missing meetings17:41
henook, I think we're done17:41
nand_at_workhmm... me too :/17:41
* nand_at_work is back, too late17:41
pedro_haha i almost miss the last desktop one, I'm hating the DST17:41
MootBotMeeting finished at 18:41.17:41
* nand_at_work 's going home17:42
SyntuxThere is a server meeting after one hour, right ?19:44
gclericthe server meeting is in 1 hour 14min19:46
Syntuxgreat, thank you :-)19:47
nijabaSyntux: actually the server meeting is in 2h10m from now19:50
ubotuCurrent time in Etc/UTC: April 09 2008, 18:51:00 - Next meeting: Server Team in 2 hours 8 minutes19:51
Syntuxoh hmm, I wonder why they picked such timing, 6UTC would be wonderful for most of human beings19:54
=== ubotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Current meeting: Server Team Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 10 Apr 20:00 UTC: Security Team | 11 Apr 12:00 UTC: MOTU | 16 Apr 21:00 UTC: Server Team | 23 Apr 21:00 UTC: Server Team | 30 Apr 21:00 UTC: Server Team
* mathiaz waves21:58
* Koon waves21:59
owhGreetings and salutations fellow travelers.21:59
sommerhey all22:01
zulhi Koon22:01
mathiazSo - let's get started22:02
MootBotMeeting started at 23:02. The chair is mathiaz.22:02
MootBotCommands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]22:02
* mathiaz waves at MootBot :)22:02
mathiazToday's agenda: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Meeting22:03
mathiazPrevious meeting minutes: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/Server/2008040222:03
mathiazowh: I've noticed you've attached the patches22:04
owhYup, though I suspect they won't ever actually get used :)22:05
mathiaznijaba: did you get a chance the talk with bdmurray about the Ubuntu Server Bug contact page ?22:05
nijabamathiaz: yes I did22:05
nijabamathiaz: zul an I are listed as contacts for bug triagger now22:05
mathiaznijaba: great - so the purpose of the page is to list people that can be referred to online, via irc22:06
mathiaznijaba: if there are any questions related to a package specific to the server are ?22:07
nijabamathiaz: yes, when a triagger does not know what to do with a big, they contact us22:07
nijabaa bug even22:07
mathiaznijaba: seems great - thanks nijaba and zul for taking up this role :)22:07
mathiazI think that's all from last week meeting22:07
mathiaz[TOPIC] Bug milestoned for Hardy22:08
MootBotNew Topic:  Bug milestoned for Hardy22:08
mathiazAs you may have noticed, we're approaching the release date of hardy22:08
mathiazThere is a list of bug milestone for hardy: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+milestone/ubuntu-8.0422:09
mathiazI went through the list and here are some bugs that are relevant to us:22:10
mathiazbug 21348222:10
ubotuLaunchpad bug 213482 in openldap2.3 "Dapper to Hardy upgrade fails with slapd" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/21348222:10
mathiazI think mvo is working on it22:11
mvomathiaz: I just posted a possible fix22:11
mvorequires renaming libsasl2-modules to libsasl2-2-modules22:11
mvothat is a bit unfortunate as the rdepends needs transitioning too22:11
mvothere are not that many but its not ideal timing22:11
mvothe fix works for me (and my kvm auto-upgrade tester)22:12
slangasekI always knew that libsasl2 rename was a bad idea, I just didn't know why :)22:12
mathiazmvo: should this be considered as a blocker for the release of hardy ?22:12
nijaba(yeah, mvo too uses kvm!)22:12
mvodefinitely, slapd breaks for everybody on dapper->hardy upgrades, that is not acceptable :)22:12
mvobut the authorative answer can only come from a release-manager on this of course :)22:13
mathiazwell - I guess we'll have to figure which packages are impacted by the rename22:14
mvothere may be more ways to fix it too, but its good that we have a working solution22:15
mvosomeone with good understand on sasl should probably have a additional look on it22:16
mathiazAnyone wants to have a look into this sasl/ldap problem ?22:17
sommermathiaz: I'm interested, but am far from a packaging guru :)22:18
* sommer can definitely help test22:18
mathiazsommer: right - testing will be welcomed once we have a fix22:19
mathiazbon - if someone wants to take a shot at it, you have the bug number ;)22:19
mathiazlet's move on22:19
mathiazbug 8124222:19
ubotuLaunchpad bug 81242 in postfix "postfix-ldap is linked against gnuTLS" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/8124222:19
mathiazSo slangasek gave some pointers that needs more investigation22:22
mathiazlamont: do you have any comments on this GnuTLS vs Postfix issue ?22:23
mathiazlet's move on to bug 15594722:24
ubotuLaunchpad bug 155947 in libnss-ldap "ldap config  causes Ubuntu to hang at a reboot" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/15594722:24
mathiazkirkland: did you fix it ?22:24
kirklandmathiaz: :-)  nope22:24
nxvlsorry for being late, i have had work problems22:25
nijabamathiaz: I think this bug has difficulty to be reproduced...22:25
kirklandmathiaz: but there are two points to be made about it22:25
kirklandmathiaz: the first, is that we now have significant evidence that the failure path of this bug involves a system which has been upgraded from Feisty -> Gutsy -> Hardy22:25
kirklandmathiaz: in that users are talking about a pam_ldap.conf config file that ceased to exist after Gutsy22:26
* kirkland points at dendrobates 22:26
kirklandmathiaz: the second point is that at least one user confirmed a suspicion...22:26
kirklandmathiaz: "hang on boot" in the title may not in fact be an accurate description of this bug22:26
kirklandmathiaz: "hang on login" when no ldap server present is probably a more accurate description22:26
kirklandmathiaz: at least one commenter recently agreed with this analysis22:27
slangasekthat sounds to me like a separate bug than the one originally being reported22:27
kirklandmathiaz: in which case I think me, zul, jdstrand, dendrobates, and others have reproduced that behavior22:27
mathiazkirkland: right - hang on login makes sense to me22:27
jdstrandkirkland: I seem to remember a comment on this happening in dapper, and not fixed in etch either22:27
kirklandmathiaz: i'd say hang on login is "functions as designed" in my opinion22:27
slangasek"hang on boot" is explainable in terms of the network not being up yet and nss_ldap being !clever22:27
kirklandin any case, i have never hung a system on booting trying to reproduce this, and i've tried at least a dozen installations of feisty -> hardy22:28
jdstrandkirkland: I also seem to remember (maybe in a duplicate) that people described the problem in the same way as the missing nvram bug, which *was* a hang on boot22:28
kirklandjdstrand: i did not go back to dapper/edgy22:28
mathiazkirkland: re pam_ldap.conf - does it mean that upgrades are not handled properly ?22:28
kirklandmathiaz: that is possible22:29
jdstrand(the nvram bug was fixed btw)22:29
kirklandmathiaz: users are saying that they're "fixing" this by adding a "soft bind policy" to the ldap.conf22:29
kirklandmathiaz: if any fix for this bug is required, i think that may be it, for it, in the upgrading case22:30
nijabakirkland: how would you explain it only happening in cas of an upgrade?22:30
kirklandnijaba: configuration that's not properly ported out of pam_ldap.conf ?22:31
mathiaznijaba: we changed libnss-ldap to use one configuration file22:31
* kirkland was not around for that change, yields to mathiaz & dendrobates 22:31
mathiaznijaba: in feisty, there used to be to files to configure ldap info - one for pam and one for libnss22:31
jdstrandkirkland: not ported properly would indeed happen, as there wasn't any porting IIRC22:31
jdstrandkirkland: let me check, but I think it was just a debconf note saying 'you have to do this manually'22:32
nijabaand is softbind the default now on a new install?22:32
mathiaznijaba: dendrobates changed it in gutsy, so that pam and libnss use one configuration file (/etc/ldap.conf)22:32
mathiazjdstrand: I think he put some logic to migrate the files22:33
mathiazjdstrand: at least if the two configuration files were the same22:33
mathiazjdstrand: the issue is when libnssldap and pam_ldap aren't using the same configuration22:33
jdstrandI worked on that a bit myself, I am digging into it now22:33
jdstrandmathiaz: no migration-- ldap-auth-config/move-to-debconf22:34
mathiazjdstrand: ok22:35
jdstrand"You MUST either reconfigure your settings with debconf, or manually migrate your settings into ldap.conf and verify your configuration before logging out."22:35
kirklandjdstrand: please link to that somehow as a comment in the bug?22:35
kirklandmathiaz: how should we proceed on this bug at this point, for Hardy?22:35
* kirkland looks for guidance22:36
mathiazthat would explain why we see this problem only on an feisty -> gutsy upgrade22:36
jdstrandkirkland: it's in the ldap-auth-client source for debconf22:36
mathiazwell - the problem is that users don't read what debconf is telling them22:36
jdstrandthat happens if either or both of /etc/libnss-ldap.conf and /etc/pam-ldap.conf exist on upgrade22:37
dendrobatesinitally we were going to disallow upgrade if the seperate files still existed, but it was decided that was a bad plan.22:37
jdstrandthere is no sane way to migrate them as it is possible to actually use both on the same system (which was one of the driving forces behind dendrobates' merging to /etc/ldap.conf to begin, IIRC)22:39
jdstrandreason being it was too complicated and error prone22:39
jdstrand(but I'll let him speak to that if desired)22:40
mathiazkirkland: I don't think we can really say we know what's going on in this bug22:40
kirklandmathiaz: okay, back at the grinding wheel again22:40
mathiazkirkland: it's still not reproducable22:40
kirklandmathiaz: right22:41
mathiazkirkland: the comments are also long22:41
kirklandmathiaz: should I focus more on dapper -> hardy upgrades, as that might be the more popular upgrade path in the future?22:41
mathiazkirkland: oh yeah - definelty22:41
mathiazkirkland: is there someone on the bug thread that is able to reproduce the problem now ?22:41
kirklandmathiaz: yeah, a lot of comments, though, are autoresponders from someone's annoying vacation responder :-S22:42
mathiazkirkland: if not - we don't have any choice but to wait for someone that runs in the same problem22:42
mathiazkirkland: and then we can start debugging it22:42
kirklandmathiaz: no one whose been willing to either (a) share their configs, or (b) meet me in IRC or on private email22:42
mathiazkirkland: right - that happends often in long running bugs22:43
kirklandmathiaz: there is a single user who claims he's seen this on Hardy beta, when I asked for logs/configs, he couldn't get them to me/Launchpad22:43
jdstrandkirkland: how about an ssh root session into there system?22:43
mathiazkirkland: some of the commenter are just adding a me too -while it's not the same problem22:43
slangasekkirkland: mark the bug as incomplete to force the issue?22:43
kirklandslangasek: good plan, I'll go that route.22:43
slangasek(and be clear about what config files you need :)22:44
kirklandif this is a boot hang, i want /var/log/syslog, and some ldap/nss configs out of /etc22:44
jdstrandkirkland: someone mentioned etch being broken in the same way, might be worthwhile to look at Debian BTS22:44
mathiazbug 18961622:44
ubotuLaunchpad bug 189616 in dovecot "connection problems under load with hardy dovecot" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/18961622:44
kirklandjdstrand: okay22:44
=== encryptz_ is now known as encryptz
mathiazI've started to look into that bug - but I've found nothing up to now22:45
nijabaanother: "yet to be reproduced" bug...22:45
nijabamathiaz: could we convince elmo to give it another shot with a network sniffer on?22:46
mathiaznijaba: hum - I don't think that he'll be happy with the network sniffer part...22:46
nijabamathiaz: we are talking about ssl traces...22:47
jdstrandI don't think he'd be happy with the 'another shot' part22:47
nxvli can sniff some packages on a test suite22:47
nxvlusing virtual machines22:47
nijabajdstrand: this, I can imagine, but I'd like to know if he can reproduce on hardy, not on a backported to dapper dovecot22:47
mathiaznijaba: I've tried to use a backported to dapper dovecot version and wasn't able to reproduce the bug22:48
nijabamathiaz: with simulated ssl imap client and all?22:48
jdstrandnijaba: absolutely, if it's not hardy test then it's not valid. I was just being 'realistic'22:49
mathiaznijaba: with a real imap ssl client (a python script)22:49
mathiaznijaba: I've run 60 concurent clients login/logging out22:49
nijabamathiaz: good.... so --> incomplete?22:49
mathiaznijaba: yeah - I'll talk to elmo to figure out what the configuration is22:50
jdstrandif --> incomplete, document *everything*22:50
mathiaznijaba: there may be some weird setup somewhere.22:50
nijabamathiaz: yep, that is one part we have not been good at on this bug.22:50
nxvldo we support backported packages?22:50
nxvli think it can be broken by the dapper configuration22:50
mathiaznxvl: depends how you define "we" and "support"22:51
nijabanxvl: no, but elmo, if you do not know, is our IS guy22:51
nxvl"we" as in server team and "support" as in fix bugs that includes and old still supported release and new packages22:51
nxvlnijaba: yep i knew he was our sysadmin22:52
dendrobatesnxvl: we have to try and fix this,22:52
mathiaznxvl: generally no22:52
dendrobatesor rather try and find out if it exists.22:52
nxvldendrobates: so we do care about them22:52
mathiaznxvl: in this particular case, we'd better try to investigate the issue a little bit22:52
dendrobateswe care about this one.22:52
owhJust an observation, but so far both his and other virtual testing seems not to show the issue. Could it be related to his hardware?22:53
nxvloh ok22:53
nxvli will try to make a test suite later today or tomorrow and try to reproduce it22:53
nxvlconfiguring a postfix on dapper22:53
nxvland then backport it22:53
dendrobatesnxvl: because this could be a problem in production environments and becuase we absolutely trust the source.22:53
nijabanxvl: in fact, we would hate seing this bug occuring on hardy in a live user config22:53
mathiazowh: well - dovecot on dapper works correctly22:53
mathiazowh: switch backported dovecot and it fails22:54
dendrobatesthe best case, is tn reproduce it in dapper using the backport, and then have it not exist in hardy22:54
owhmathiaz: But on the other side of that is that his own load testing and that done by you does not show the problem. Unless of course we're not simulating enough load.22:55
mathiazowh: yes.22:55
jdstrandmathiaz: do you have his backported packages, 'dpkg -l' and dovecot configuration?22:55
nxvli have just asked for more information about the bug to try to reproduce it22:55
mathiazowh: the issue was seen on a production system22:55
mathiazjdstrand: not yet - I was going to ask about it.22:56
owhmathiaz: We're (ubuntu-server) not really setup for testing load are we?22:56
jdstrandmathiaz: I'd be curious about the installed packages too (hence the dpkg -l)22:56
owhmathiaz: Yeah, not really a nice place to find bugs at the best of times.22:56
owhSo, gather more information basically jdstrand.22:56
jdstrandyes, the bug is 'terse'22:57
mathiazowh: agreed - I'l talk with elmo about the setup22:57
owhThat's a good word :)22:57
mathiazThat's was all for the bugs milestoned for the release.22:57
mathiaz[TOPIC] RC/Final testing of server isos22:57
MootBotNew Topic:  RC/Final testing of server isos22:57
nijabamathiaz: isn't bug #199144 milestoned?22:58
ubotuLaunchpad bug 199144 in apache2 "Apache2 with mpm_worker times out with many concurrent requests" [Undecided,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/19914422:58
mathiaznijaba: hum... true22:58
mathiaznijaba: zul wasn't able to reproduce the bug22:58
zulabout that one I wasnt able to reproduce the bug I ran the command a hundread times through the loop and still wasnt able to reproduce it22:59
slangasekalso, a reminder that https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/hardy/+bugs aren't milestoned, but they are targets of opportunity... if you exhaust the milestoned bugs, or if anyone wants something that might be easier to tackle, that's a place to look22:59
zulit doesnt help what yaddayadda is in the bug report22:59
nijabazul: at least the reporter responds to our queries23:00
mathiazzul: could it be a hardware problem ?23:00
mathiazzul: like faulty memory ?23:00
zulmathiaz: it could be faulty network card not sure23:00
zulthere was a bug about in apache's bug tracker but that was from 3 years ago23:01
owhUh, what about a PHP issue, that is, PHP is hogging all the children?23:02
owhI know the report says it isn't related, but I've seen it happen often on crap PHP code.23:03
mathiazzul: is the root of the website a php script ?23:03
nijabaowh: I guess that is what zul meant when he said "it doesnt help what yaddayadda is in the bug report"23:03
zulmathiaz: he doesnt say23:04
mathiazzul: you may wanna ask more information about the setup23:04
nijabamathiaz: would be a good question to ask23:04
slangasekif the content he's testing against is PHP, that could very well be the cause, yes :)23:04
owhnijaba: That's possible I suppose.23:04
zulI will do so as soon as I finish what Im working on :)23:05
mathiazzul: great23:05
mathiazso to go back to the topic23:05
mathiaz[TOPIC] RC/Final testing of server isos23:06
MootBotNew Topic:  RC/Final testing of server isos23:06
mathiazheno started to organize -server iso testing for RC and Final23:06
owhmathiaz: Sorry to intrude but do we need a time check?23:06
ubotuSchedule for Etc/UTC: Current meeting: Server Team 10 Apr 20:00: Security Team | 11 Apr 12:00: MOTU | 16 Apr 21:00: Server Team | 23 Apr 21:00: Server Team | 30 Apr 21:00: Server Team23:07
mathiazowh: well - there isn't any meeting now23:08
owhAll good.23:08
mathiazowh: but I think we're almost finished now23:08
mathiazso tomorrow is the archive freeze until Final release23:08
mathiazwe'll have an RC of Hardy next week23:08
mathiazand final in two weeks23:09
zulthats freaking scarey23:09
sommermathiaz: are there going to be sparc iso's?23:09
mathiazslangasek: ^^23:09
nijabasommer: yes, but not officially maintained23:09
slangasekthere will be sparc isos, on the same level with hppa/powerpc/ia64...23:09
owhzul: I was just thinking that :)23:10
sommerso should they be tested?23:10
mathiazsommer: if you have the hardware, yes23:10
slangaseksparc is being moved to "ports", it's not a Canonical-supported release anymore, including for server23:10
slangasekbut that doesn't mean it shouldn't be tested23:10
mathiazsommer: I don't know if the isotesting tracker will track sparc tests though23:11
owhmathiaz: So, are there any specific testing requirements for U-S for the .iso's ?23:11
owhI mean, booting and installing is fine, but that's hardly "testing" an .iso is it?23:11
mathiazowh: owh https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/Cases/ServerInstall23:12
mathiazowh: we have a list of 9 test cases23:12
mathiazowh: the testing procude is outlined on the wiki page.23:12
owhmathiaz: I'm reading it as you type :)23:12
mathiazowh: if you're interested in helping out, you should check out http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/23:13
mathiazowh: it's the iso testing tracker23:13
mathiazowh: when the release team has new isos to test, they will be published there23:13
nijabaowh: feel free to register yourself for  some tests ;)23:13
owhmathiaz: As I'm reading this, it's hardly beyond "tick" a box installation is it.23:13
nijabaowh: right23:14
mathiazowh: a little bit more23:14
owhAre there any actual testing suites?23:14
mathiazowh: there are some tests to be done depending on the installation profile23:14
mathiazowh: for ex, make sure that postgres is running on reboot, etc...23:14
owhmathiaz: Yeah, check if you can create a database, but basically, trust the installer. That's pretty trivial IMO.23:14
slangasekowh: there are test cases to follow to ensure that the packages are installed correctly by default; the ISO testing isn't intended to be a replacement for the much longer period of beta testing that's been ongoing23:14
nxvli will give a try to iso's when i work on the postfix bug23:14
mathiazowh: everything is outlined in the test description23:14
nxvlusing a VM23:14
owhslangasek: Cool. I just thought I'd ask.23:15
mathiazowh: trivial is better than nothing ;)23:15
owhmathiaz: There is that.23:15
* owh has to head off to breakfast.23:15
sommerwhoa... thought he said beerfest for a second :-)23:16
mathiazall right - that's all I wanted to mention for the meeting23:16
mathiaz[TOPIC] Any Other Business23:16
MootBotNew Topic:  Any Other Business23:16
mathiazslangasek: do you want to add something related to the incoming release ?23:17
slangasekI have one particular bug I'd like to request attention on :)23:17
slangasekbug #20841923:17
ubotuLaunchpad bug 208419 in auth-client-config "Integrate samba password in PAM" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/20841923:18
jdstrandthe patch is forth-coming, I promise! :)23:18
slangasekthis is a pretty late "feature", but it's pretty trivial to enable23:18
* jdstrand wishes auth-client-config didn't start with 'a' now23:18
slangasekso I'd like the server team to comment on pulling libpam-smbpass into the samba-server seed by default23:18
mathiazconsidering that the samba-server task is targeted at new comers, I think it'd make sense23:20
* nijaba dreams of rediecting both to slapd once and for all...23:20
* slangasek twitch23:20
mathiazI think that most of the samba deployments in the server world don't require libpam-smbpass23:21
slangasekmathiaz: I think they don't /use/ it, but do you think that's what people /want/?23:21
slangasekdo admins not want password sync by default between Unix and Samba23:21
sommerI wouldn't, by default23:21
mathiazslangasek: hum... depends on the use case23:22
mathiazslangasek: and the environment23:22
* mathiaz ponders23:22
mathiazIMO adding to the samba-server seed makes sense to me23:23
mathiazconsidering the target audience23:23
nijabadendrobates: any impact for likewise?23:24
mathiazslangasek: so for me, it's a +1 for the samba-server seed modification23:26
dendrobatesnijaba: no23:28
nijabagood, thanks23:28
dendrobatesnijaba: wait, let me read the bug first.23:28
dendrobatesnijaba: no, it does not apply.23:29
dendrobatesslangasek: +123:29
slangasekk, cheers :)23:30
=== ubotu changed the topic of #ubuntu-meeting to: Calendar: http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event | Logs: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/ | 10 Apr 20:00 UTC: Security Team | 11 Apr 12:00 UTC: MOTU | 16 Apr 21:00 UTC: Server Team | 23 Apr 21:00 UTC: Server Team | 30 Apr 21:00 UTC: Server Team
mathiazslangasek: I can take a look at modify the seeds23:31
slangasekcool, thanks23:31
owhJust an aside, how is the survey coming along?23:32
nijabaowh: their were a few security issues uncovered by kees in limesurvey.  we are waiting for upstream to fix those before it can be hosted on u.c23:32
owhIs there any way to speed that up - I mean, waiting for someone else to do something might take years :)23:33
nijabaowh: I am in touch with their lead dev almost daily23:33
nijabaowh: I he gave me good assurance it is going to be fixed soon23:34
owhnijaba: Is there a time line?23:34
nijabaowh: ASAP23:34
owhSo, if that is sorted out, are we ready to roll?23:34
nijabaowh: I believe so, yes23:35
owhDo we need to do another #U-S - wide testing run?23:35
nijabaowh: not sure but if you feel like it, I can set one up easy enough23:36
owhWhat do others think about this?23:36
owhJust to be clear, I'm talking about a test-run sent to the ubuntu-server list.23:36
* sommer thought the last one looked good23:37
mathiazowh: a test-run ? Has anything changed ?23:37
owhmathiaz: At the moment, there have only been a select few who have run it.23:37
nijabamathiaz: we fixed about ten "bugs" since last test23:37
=== mc44_ is now known as mc44
owhI'm just wondering if it needed a wider audience before release.23:37
nijabaowh: I think it should be fine23:38
* mathiaz agrees23:38
owhAll good then :)23:38
nijabaowh: we did 4 iteration, with an average of 5 testers23:38
mathiaz[TOPIC] #23:38
mathiazAgree on next meeting date and time.23:38
MootBotNew Topic:  #23:38
owhHmm, is there anything else I should be doing about the init.d scripts?23:38
mathiaz[TOPIC] Agree on next meeting date and time.23:38
MootBotNew Topic:  Agree on next meeting date and time.23:38
mathiazowh: nope - it's all good for now :)23:39
mathiazNext week, same time, same place ?23:39
* owh jumps for joy :)23:39
* owh could do with more sleep as well...23:39
owhJust out of interest, what TZ's are people in? For me it's UTC+823:40
mathiazGreat - so see ya all next week, here at the same time23:40
nijabaUTC+2 here23:40
owhSo this meeting starts at 5am.23:40
mathiazhappy testing23:40
mathiazthanks for attending :)23:40
sommerthanks mathiaz23:40
nijabathanks mathiaz23:40
sommerowh: UTC -423:40
owhthanks mathiaz for your tireless typing :)23:41
jdstrandthanks mathiaz!23:41
owhSo, nijaba is really screwwed :|23:41
nxvlUTC -  here23:41
mathiazowh: our TZ range from UTC+8 to UTC-923:41
mathiazowh: hum - UTC-7 to be correct23:41
sommerer, I think I'm 5 as well :)23:41
MootBotMeeting finished at 00:41.23:41
sommerlater on all23:42
owhmathiaz: So much for finding a better time then :)23:42
mathiazowh: right - that's alway the problem when you have people all over the world23:43
mathiazowh: the other solution is to rotate the meeting times23:43
owhI was just thinking that.23:43
owhIt's not really fair to screw the same person(s) all the time.23:43
owhI feel for nijaba though.23:44
nijabadon't worry, we're not just at my usual bed time23:44
owhOf course it's possible that nijaba is a night owl :)23:45
nijabaowh: I am a bit of that...23:45
mathiaznijaba: right - but you're not the only one in Europe23:45
nijabamathiaz: soren is worse than me ;)23:45
mathiaznijaba: soren is also a nigh owl23:45
owhWhat's soren at?23:45
mathiazbut we have other people in Europe23:45
nijabasoren= utc+2 as well23:45
mathiazsommer: UTC+2 - he is usually in Denmark23:46
mathiazowh: ^^23:46
mathiazowh: and we also have people on the west coast23:46
owhI wonder if we run the risk of burning people out if we keep the same times, or do we make it worse by rotating?23:46
mathiazowh: rotating == we need to keep track of the meeting time23:47
owhLot's of late arrivals with "Sorry, forgot the time."23:47
mathiazowh: and people are really bad it this23:47
mathiazowh: yeah - look at what DST generated...23:47
mathiazowh: yeat it -> at23:48
owhI'm noticing that there is a lot of work behind the scenes. Many Ubuntu users would not be aware of any of it. Is there a benefit to holding an "open day"?23:49
owhA day in the life of a ubuntu-server developer kind of thing?23:49
mathiazowh: like this ? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/Prep23:50
owhI'm fixing bugs and attending meetings, but I'm only scratching the surface.23:50
* owh looks.23:50
owhIs the intent to do that on IRC, or another platform?23:51
mathiazowh: we always do it on IRC23:51
owhHow is it publicised?23:51
owhShould we as a group offer some sessions?23:52
mathiazowh: there a plan to offer some sessions23:52
mathiazowh: I'll probably run a session on the server team23:52
owhmathiaz: Do you want to add it to the next meeting agenda?23:52
* owh guesses there may be others.23:53
mathiazowh: well - I've already done it once23:53
mathiazowh: so I already have a skeleton for the IRC session23:53
mathiazowh: during the DeveloperWeek in January23:53
mathiazowh: or February23:53
mathiazowh: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/devweek0802/SeverTeam23:54
owhI'm just thinking that single-person representation is subject to the "hit by a bus" scenario.23:54
mathiazowh: well - the content of my last irc session is online23:55
owhAlso, in sessions like that, if other team members were there they could help.23:55
owhmathiaz: I'm talking more about a "group-knowledge". It shouldn't always fall to the same person.23:56
nxvlmathiaz: february23:56
nxvlowh: if we all "talk" ( write ? ) it will be a complete disaster and there will we no order23:57
nxvlowh: so we have mathiaz that talk for us23:57
* nxvl HUG mathiaz 23:57
owhmathiaz: This OpenDay seems more targeted at developers rather than users.23:57
owhnxvl: I understand that. I'm not trying to surplant mathiaz, I'm saying there are other team members who can assist.23:58
nxvloh yes23:58
owhI suspect there are many end-users who would love to know more about Ubuntu's magical workings.23:58
nxvli always take the questions23:58
owhI saw your paw in that log nxvl :)23:59

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