[00:01] <hostagexandox> hello
[00:02] <DPic> here for the marketing team meeting?
[00:02] <hostagexandox> yeah
[00:02] <DPic> awesome, anyone else arrived yet? we'll wait a few more minutes
[00:02] <hostagexandox> haven't been involved before so i may not say much...
[00:03] <DPic> no problem, but please don't hold back if you ever have an idea
[00:04] <DPic> how did you hear about this meeting?
[00:05] <hostagexandox> basically i googled "ubuntu marketing"
[00:05] <DPic> oh haha cool
[00:05] <DPic> are you already involved in a LoCo?
[00:06] <hostagexandox> well there's only one for the entire contry of australia that i know if
[00:06] <hostagexandox> *pf
[00:06] <hostagexandox> *of
[00:07] <DPic> are you in it?
[00:09] <hostagexandox> yeah
[00:11] <DPic> cool
[00:11] <DPic> i have no idea where everyone is. a reminder was sent out and everything
[00:14] <tyche> I am here
[00:15] <DPic> ah, great
[00:15] <DPic> hello
[00:15] <beuno> and here  :)
[00:15] <tyche> So?  Where is everyone?
[00:15] <beuno> let me try something...
[00:15] <DPic> ooh they're popping up like daisies in the spring!
[00:15] <beuno> jenda?  :)
[00:15] <DPic> tyche: late, i guess
[00:15] <tyche> johnc4510 may not make it.  Family problems.
[00:16] <beuno> where there topics proposed for the meeting?
[00:16] <DPic> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MarketingTeam/Meetings/Minutes/2008-04-08
[00:18] <beuno> not much there  :)
[00:18] <beuno> the main idea behind these meetings is getting the team rolling again, right?
[00:19] <DPic> beuno: that's correct
[00:19] <beuno> I'm sorry I missed the previous meetings
[00:20] <DPic> beuno: no problem. glad to have you here now :)
[00:20] <beuno> IMHO, _the_ problem currently is that the team doesn't have a very well layed out purpose
[00:20] <DPic> i think it does
[00:20] <beuno> and the team lead is MIA
[00:20] <beuno> (Corey)
[00:20] <DPic> i've sort have been taking care of things lately
[00:21] <beuno> DPic, I've seen, and I'm glad you have
[00:21] <DPic> i think we just need more delegates from locos
[00:21] <DPic> we need to get more loco's involved so i was going to send out meeting alerts to the loco-contacts list
[00:22] <beuno> DPic, I think that to get the team active again we need 3 things:
[00:22] <DPic> about out teams purpose, i think i outlined it pretty well on the wiki
[00:22] <DPic> our*
[00:22] <beuno> 1) Outline who we're aiming at. Canonical does a lot of marketing, and it doesn't make sense to overlap with them
[00:23] <beuno> 2) Draw up very specific tasks and objectives and have people actively pursue them
[00:23] <beuno> 3) Have a nice talk with the Canonical folks so we can find a way to work together
[00:23] <DPic> The first and primary mission of the Ubuntu Marketing Team is to resolve  Bug #1 - We work to market Ubuntu to more people. We are the central marketing hub to provide resources and materials for individuals and LoCo teams. We coordinate and organize marketing efforts across teams around the world.
[00:23] <DPic> --from the wiki
[00:24] <beuno> DPic, right, but that's a bit too broad, as we don't, for example, but advertisement in billboards
[00:24] <beuno> as an example
[00:24] <beuno> it should be discussed
[00:25] <beuno> but I believe the team should be the main coordinator for all marketing material, and coordinate LoCos to pass on information
[00:25] <DPic> well i envisioned us as organizing marketing effots like projects and campaigns
[00:25] <DPic> beuno: yes, that's one of the main jobs of the team
[00:26] <beuno> I think we have previously failed in reaching out to the LoCos
[00:26] <beuno> and organizing the currently available marketing material
[00:26] <beuno> in part, due to tecnical limitations on where and how to store it
[00:26] <DPic> it was mroe of a free for all before where people organized their own independent projects
[00:27] <DPic> there's now a materials page and resources page on out wiki
[00:27] <beuno> right, and it worked pretty well for a while
[00:27] <DPic> for a while? they're fairly new
[00:28] <beuno> DPic, what is?
[00:28] <DPic> the materials and resources pages on the wiki
[00:29] <beuno> DPic, the page is, not the material
[00:29] <DPic> yeah
[00:29] <DPic> with the exception of the hardy flyer
[00:29] <beuno> ah, right
[00:29] <beuno> I also think we should finish separating the -news team
[00:30] <DPic> i've requested a forum for us so we'll need a moderator
[00:30] <beuno> and coordinate both teams as to be as effective as possible
[00:30] <DPic> anyone here think they would be up for the job?
[00:30] <DPic> the -news team?
[00:30] <beuno> DPic, yes, UWN, Fridge, Full Circle, etc
[00:30] <beuno> those are virtually split up into a new team
[00:30] <DPic> oh yeah it would make sense for them to have their own team
[00:31] <beuno> who's objective is to inform the community at large
[00:31] <beuno> they used to be part of -marketing
[00:31] <DPic> yeah
[00:31] <tyche> And wouldn't the CC need to pass on the change?
[00:31] <DPic> would they?
[00:32] <beuno> tyche, not really, no. We've discussed it to death already, and even have a mailing list/channel/group
[00:32] <DPic> i don't think so
[00:32] <beuno> hello cody-somerville  :)
[00:32] <DPic> i can fix up the new team wiki
[00:32] <beuno> anyway, cody-somerville was in -marketing way before me, so he might have some insight too
[00:32] <tyche> What would a moderator have to do?
[00:32]  * cody-somerville wonders what we're discussing.
[00:33]  * cody-somerville apologizes for coming in late.
[00:34] <DPic> cody-somerville: no problem
[00:34] <beuno> cody-somerville, mainly, how to get the team back up and running
[00:34] <cody-somerville> Ooo... Excellent :)
[00:34] <DPic> i think just asking for at least one person from each loco would be great
[00:34] <beuno> for which I tried to describe why I thought it slowly died away
[00:34] <cody-somerville> I was having a discussion about this just the other day with Persia.
[00:35] <beuno> cody-somerville, and I proposed:
[00:35] <beuno> 1) Outline who we're aiming at. Canonical does a lot of marketing, and it doesn't make sense to overlap with them
[00:35] <beuno> 2) Draw up very specific tasks and objectives and have people actively pursue them
[00:35] <beuno> 3) Have a nice talk with the Canonical folks so we can find a way to work together
[00:35]  * cody-somerville nods.
[00:35] <DPic> i like out independence from canonical
[00:35] <cody-somerville> Who is the current team lead?
[00:35] <beuno> cody-somerville, Corey, which is MIA
[00:36]  * cody-somerville nods.
[00:36] <cody-somerville> So besides Corey, is there anyone everyone would feel comfortable with leading the project?
[00:37]  * beuno thinks it over
[00:37]  * cody-somerville wonders if beuno should nominate himself :)
[00:37] <DPic> lol everyone nominates themself
[00:38]  * DPic was thinking the same thing
[00:38]  * beuno wonders if he will have the time/energy
[00:38] <beuno> cody-somerville, I think we should drag Corey into a meeting and/or email thread about this first
[00:38] <DPic> beuno: that would probably be the best idea
[00:39] <cody-somerville> beuno, What would be the purpose of that dialogue?
[00:39] <cody-somerville>  /goal
[00:39] <beuno> cody-somerville, to get some of his insight on the issue, and to not step over him rudly  :)
[00:40] <DPic> ask him whether he will continue to lead the team
[00:40] <cody-somerville> Oh, trust me, Corey is burnt out and has admitted it several times.
[00:40] <cody-somerville> Although I don't think we need to "pick" a leader today, I think we do need to identify the core contributors and ask them to champion this revival.
[00:41] <beuno> cody-somerville, I do, and I know, it just seems like he should be included in this, unless he explicitly doesn't want to
[00:41] <DPic> do we really need a leader? i have myself as a contact on the contact us page
[00:41] <DPic> beuno: you may add yourself as well if you like
[00:41] <cody-somerville> Well, I'm currently an administrator of the team myself but as you know I'm pretty tied up with Xubuntu.
[00:41] <beuno> DPic, I'm not sure yet, and, on the other hand, you have been actively pushing this when all I've done is drop into this meeting  :)
[00:42] <cody-somerville> However, I think we have enough "authority" at this meeting to make some moving forward decisions :)
[00:42] <DPic> cody-somerville: agreed
[00:43] <DPic> i'll work on setting up the NewsTeam and also to get more teams involved with us
[00:43]  * cody-somerville nods.
[00:43] <DPic> does anybody have any ideas for hardy or should we move on to discussion about our next project?
[00:43] <beuno> I'd personally like to have a nice conversation with some of the Canonical folks to see how we can work *together*, and I'm willing to poke the right people to get that going
[00:43] <beuno> DPic, boredandblogging is heading that up, so talk to him first please
[00:43] <DPic> heading what up?
[00:44] <beuno> the -news team
[00:44] <DPic> oh okay i'll talk to him then
[00:44] <cody-somerville> beuno, Is there a contact page to show who is responsible currently for what?
[00:44] <beuno> or, at the very least, UWN, which is the biggest burden
[00:44] <DPic> what would canonical provide for us?
[00:44] <beuno> cody-somerville, not really, it never got formalised due to lack of interest in -marketing
[00:45] <beuno> DPic, I don't know, I just want to make sure we get in sync, as opposed to what used to happen
[00:45] <DPic> i personally don't think we need acnonical but it sure wouldn't hurt to get in contact with them
[00:45] <beuno> it might be what can *we* do for *them*, which, benefits all of us in the end
[00:45] <beuno> DPic, it's not about needing, it's about coordinating
[00:45] <DPic> i see
[00:46] <DPic> would you be able to contact them?
[00:46] <beuno> they have marketing campaigns going, and we duplicate a lot of effort if we overlap
[00:46] <beuno> DPic, I have half a draft already, I talked to Gerry in london a month or so ago about it
[00:46] <beuno> (that's a yes)
[00:47] <cody-somerville> I think one of the best ways we could help market Ubuntu is by producing material to help DIY marketers.
[00:47] <cody-somerville> We constantly get requests for slideshows and the what not
[00:47] <DPic> cody-somerville: that's the purpose of our materials page
[00:48] <beuno> cody-somerville, yes, and, if we lack people to do so, just gather whatever is around and get it on one place, translated, and publisize where it is
[00:48]  * cody-somerville nods.
[00:49] <cody-somerville> It seems we need what I'm currently working on for Xubuntu
[00:49] <cody-somerville> A strategy document
[00:49] <beuno> cody-somerville, do you remember the DIY website?  That would of been what we're wanting today
[00:49] <DPic> what kind of strategy do we need?
[00:50]  * cody-somerville nods at beuno 
[00:50] <beuno> cody-somerville, that would be #1 on the list for me today
[00:51] <cody-somerville> Lets ask ourselves some questions.
[00:51] <cody-somerville> What is our primary goal?
[00:52] <cody-somerville> What do we want to accomplish?
[00:52] <cody-somerville> Where do we want to market Ubuntu?
[00:52] <cody-somerville> Why do we want to market Ubuntu?
[00:52] <cody-somerville> When do we want to market Ubuntu?
[00:53] <beuno> I believe we don't actually want to market anything ourselves, that would be the LoCos job, as they have a much better reach then we ever will. We should be the support structure for them to easily market Ubuntu
[00:53] <cody-somerville> Does everyone agree with that statement?
[00:53] <beuno> so, besides providing enough material, we should also coordinate project-wide efforts
[00:53] <DPic> i think the statement on out wiki covers this
[00:53] <tyche> Education would be helpful, too
[00:54] <cody-somerville> Okay, so it seems like we've already developed a strong sense of what we want to do.
[00:55] <cody-somerville> So, how do we do that - specifically?
[00:55] <hostagexandox> having a "Mission Statement" is one thing
[00:56] <DPic> well i said i'd get more people involved from other loco's
[00:56] <DPic> that wil mean we'll have more people to work with
[00:56] <DPic> more stuff getting on out materials page
[00:56] <DPic> and more of those materials being used
[00:56] <DPic> etc.
[00:56] <beuno> IMHO, setup some system to add/search for marketing content easily (DIY Website), and setup a procedure con how to promote specific efforts around the community
[00:56]  * cody-somerville nods.
[00:57] <cody-somerville> Okay, so lets agree that the current project priorities are:
[00:57] <cody-somerville> 1) Create a DIY website
[00:57] <tyche> One limitation I've run into is posting something to a forum, etc.
[00:58] <cody-somerville> 2) Develop clear documentation/procedures on how LoCo Teams can market Ubuntu effectively
[00:58] <cody-somerville> 3) Promote the Ubuntu Marketing team to get more people involved.
[00:58] <DPic> cody-somerville: have you seen the LoCoActivism pages i created?
[00:59] <tyche> Sub head to #3 is to tell them how they can contribute.
[00:59] <cody-somerville> DPic, I haven't. Link?
[00:59] <DPic> they mostly aren't marketing but they have some useful stuff
[00:59] <DPic> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoActivism
[01:00] <cody-somerville> LoCoActivisim seems to be the marketing team
[01:00] <cody-somerville> It pretty much covers point 2 from what I can see.
[01:01] <beuno> I agree that 1/2/3 sums it up
[01:02] <DPic> what do you all think of this idea? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MarketingTeam/Projects/DigitalFreedomFlicks
[01:02] <cody-somerville> DPic, I dunno if it is in the scope of the Ubuntu Marketing Team at this time.
[01:02] <cody-somerville> It seems we have a hard enough time maintaining the core projects.
[01:03] <DPic> okay it seems like it would be a difficult project
[01:03] <DPic> well, i was thinking we could start a campaign to get ubuntu sold in stored
[01:03] <DPic> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MarketingTeam/Campaigns/UbuntuInStores
[01:04] <DPic> and this was a blog post i was working on for it http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=ajdqhbdzgsdj_1002d86b2kc7
[01:04] <cody-somerville> Ok, lets drop the current projects listed except for Spread Ubuntu
[01:05] <DPic> would SpreadUbuntu be out DIY website?
[01:05] <DPic> our*
[01:05] <cody-somerville> Yes
[01:05] <beuno> DPic, no
[01:05] <beuno> :p
[01:05] <beuno> bah
[01:05] <beuno> could be
[01:06] <beuno> wasn't the original idea, but I suppose we should merge those projects
[01:06] <DPic> seems like it would make more sense if we merged them
[01:06] <beuno> DIY was suppose to be a part of spreadubuntu
[01:06] <beuno> so DIY was the first step
[01:06] <cody-somerville> "website to provide resources for grassroots advocacy"
[01:06] <beuno> and spreadubuntu had a much larger aim
[01:07] <DPic> i see
[01:07] <cody-somerville> Okay. Understood.
[01:07] <DPic> well i'd like to see a site that could be used for any free software project and to promote free software in general
[01:07] <cody-somerville> That would be nice but out of our scope.
[01:07] <tyche> I think that's further on down the road
[01:08] <beuno> we wanted to emulate what spreadfirefox had done
[01:08] <DPic> well i don't think it would hurt to start it with that aim even if all of our content is ubuntu in the beginning
[01:09] <beuno> DPic, agreed
[01:10] <DPic> so could we think of a name that would encompass more than just ubuntu?
[01:10] <DPic> i've always liked the term "digital freedom"
[01:11] <beuno> DPic, I'd rather not get in that deep
[01:11] <cody-somerville> I'm sure we could make the source code available
[01:11] <cody-somerville> and it wouldn't be hard to hard to link to other installations in the future
[01:12] <cody-somerville> However, we need to set appropriate goals that are obtainable in our _current_ situation.
[01:14]  * beuno has to run  :(
[01:15] <DPic> beuno: alright, thanks so much for coming!
[01:15] <cody-somerville> I need to go to bed as well
[01:15] <cody-somerville> However, I think we've made progress
[01:16] <DPic> yes
[01:16] <beuno> me too, we should ping Corey and have a new meeting
[01:16] <DPic> this was a good meeting
[01:16] <cody-somerville> We've all agreed that getting more user contributed content is important and that we need to make it easier to do just that.
[01:16] <DPic> yeah
[01:16] <L1pe> :( and I missedi it. I couldn't get here erlier
[01:17] <beuno> cody-somerville, yeap, absolutely
[01:17] <cody-somerville> Once we get this one big project taken care (DIY), we can then decide on our next big project (maybe some sort of campaign).
[01:17] <DPic> i think we can handle a letter writing campaign
[01:17] <cody-somerville> DPic, Excellent idea :)
[01:18] <DPic> i'd appreciate some people's feedback on my blog postt before i publish it though
[01:18] <cody-somerville> So I assume someone that isn't going to bed can take care of updating the wiki, posting the logs and minutes, etc. etc.?
[01:19] <L1pe> that's me
[01:19] <beuno> DPic, if you email me the draft, I'll take a look at it in a few hours
[01:20] <L1pe> cody-somerville: before you wake up, at least.
[01:20] <cody-somerville> L1pe, :)
[01:20] <cody-somerville> thanks
[01:20] <tyche> FYI, -news site is https://wiki.ubuntu.com/NewsTeam
[01:21] <L1pe> cody-somerville:  np, I would have like to come later and take part of the meeting, but i couldn't.
[01:21] <L1pe> *erlier
[01:22] <DPic> beuno: where can i find you email?
[01:22] <beuno> DPic, beuno@ubuntu.com
[01:22] <DPic> sent
[01:23] <beuno> DPic, I'll look now then
[01:25] <L1pe> well, is meeting over?
[01:25] <DPic> if nobody has anything to add
[01:25] <DPic> any last thoughts?
[01:26] <L1pe> just to close the log :)
[01:26] <DPic> - meeting adjourned -
[01:26] <L1pe> k
[01:26] <L1pe> I will perform my duties in a coupel of hours :)
[01:27] <DPic> L1pe: i'll copy the log over since you got here late
[01:30] <beuno> DPic, the draft looks awesome :)
[01:31] <beuno> I'd punch in a mention on how Photoshop CS3 worhs with wine nowadays
[01:31] <beuno> as it's a _major_ step forward for many people
[01:31] <beuno> but the rest looks great
[01:31] <DPic> is the ending compelling enough to get people involved?
[01:32] <beuno> DPic, yes, I think so. I'd also add "support companies who currently offer Ubuntu"
[01:32] <beuno> ya' know, encourage em to keep on investing
[01:33] <DPic> like who?
[01:33] <beuno> Dell, System76, anyone else I can't think of  :)
[01:35] <beuno> anyway, I'm off for now
[01:35] <beuno> but feel free to ping me/email for anything I can help you with  :)
[04:02] <pleaseandthankyo> is there a good diet softwares? like for a diabetes guy or a healthy living diet software for person who has heart d eases?
[04:05] <lifeless> ask in #ubuntu please
[06:58]  * ogra_cmpc yawns 
[06:58] <bryce> heya ogra
[06:58]  * asac waves
[06:58] <ogra_cmpc> hey hey
[06:58] <asac> hi all
[06:59]  * slangasek moos
[06:59] <evand> hi
[06:59]  * ArneGoetje wipes sweat off his forehead
[06:59] <TheMuso> Greetings.
[06:59]  * TheMuso looks out the window at possibly more rain.
[07:00]  * evand looks out the window into darkness.
[07:00] <Hobbsee> ah yes, that's why i should leave soonish.
[07:00]  * Hobbsee sees fire out the window.
[07:01] <evand> fire?
[07:01] <Hobbsee> at least, i wish i did.  It would make things more interesting.
[07:01] <doko> good morning
[07:01] <evand> haha
[07:01] <Hobbsee> morning doko
[07:01]  * Hobbsee has done more bug squishing.
[07:01] <james_w> morning all
[07:01]  * ogra_cmpc has done less sleeping
[07:02] <bryce> Hobbsee: I was going to say, do you live in los angeles or something?
[07:02]  * bryce waves to all
[07:02] <Hobbsee> bryce: not unless i've moved continents without noticing, no...
[07:02] <Hobbsee> and in the unlikely event of that, id' prefer to see Europe, not the US.
[07:04] <bryce> Hobbsee: not much fire out the window in Europe, but in the US we have either the damnation and brimstone kind on the right coast, or the torching your SUV kind on the left
[07:04]  * slangasek hehs
[07:05] <doko> hmm, am I 1h too early?
[07:05] <slangasek> I don't think so... :)
[07:05] <ogra_cmpc> doko, i think colin slept in :)
[07:05] <slangasek> well, let's make use of the time, eh?  How's everybody's hardy bugs doing? :)
[07:05] <ArneGoetje> maybe he forgot to switch DST on... :D
[07:06] <slangasek> don't think so, it's the second week of DST for him :)
[07:06] <Hobbsee> bryce: tasty.
[07:06] <james_w> ooh, I've got one for ya.
[07:06] <ogra_cmpc> he was around until 2am (whichis 6h ago)
[07:06] <evand> things look OK, though I have a fair amount that I need to get done later today to be happy going into FinalFreeze.
[07:06] <james_w> bug 153625
[07:06] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 153625 in ca-certificates "update-ca-certificates error. ca-certificates.crt empty (with pt_BR locale)" [High,Fix committed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/153625
[07:07] <slangasek> james_w: "for us"?  Are we still not done with that? :)
[07:07] <james_w> pitti was helping with me with it, but as he is away collaborating this week he asked me to find another sponsor.
[07:07] <james_w> slangasek: I wish we were.
[07:07] <bryce> I put prev/next buttons on http://people.ubuntu.com/~bryce/Xorg/status_current.html, and flipping through the pages, things are definitely going in the right direction for X, but still a few more left to go
[07:10]  * bryce is very thankful for actively involved community members
[07:10] <TheMuso> Still got users with pulseaudio issues... Tracking svn to see if there any more useful fixes we may want, and going to see what is being done for fedora 9.
[07:13] <asac> TheMuso: firefox + flash-nonfree crashes frequently because of this pulseaudio thing. i suspect that its related to libflashsupport.
[07:13] <asac> maybe there is a libflashsupport update? or fedora has patches?
[07:13] <TheMuso> asac: Yeah possibly...
[07:14] <asac> TheMuso: without pulseaudio it works great - which is why i never noticed it
[07:14] <TheMuso> asac: I'll have a look later. I'll add it to my TODO list.
[07:14] <ogra_cmpc> asac, libflashsupport is only needed for networked connections
[07:14] <TheMuso> ogra_cmpc: How so?
[07:14] <ogra_cmpc> pulse works fine without it if you run it locally
[07:14] <asac> ogra_cmpc: without libflashsupport sound doesn't work ... at least that was reported before someone added it as hard dependency
[07:15] <ogra_cmpc> its a workaround for a bug where pulse leaves filehandles open on networked connections that have an alsa endpoint
[07:15] <ArneGoetje> asac: got my message about flash and scim?
[07:15] <asac> ArneGoetje: yeah.
[07:15] <asac> ArneGoetje: so the free implementations don't work?
[07:15] <ArneGoetje> asac: correct
[07:16] <ogra_cmpc> (have qa look at  the package description, i linked the bug in it)
[07:16] <ArneGoetje> asac: and I suspect that's not a scim problem.
[07:16] <asac> ogra_cmpc: ogra_cmpc what does "networked connections" meanin this context?
[07:16] <ogra_cmpc> asac, non local :)
[07:17] <asac> ogra_cmpc: i understand what networked means ;)
[07:17] <ogra_cmpc> at least thats how i learned about libflashsupport two releases ago ... we should at least run a test without it, i dont think it does anything useful on local connections
[07:17] <cjwatson> ugh, apologies I'm late - the alarm clock said it was 6:55 :-/
[07:17] <cjwatson> thanks for starting without me
[07:18]  * ogra_cmpc had his mobile ready to call at :30
[07:18] <james_w> hi cjwatson
[07:18] <bryce> heya cjwatson
[07:18] <asac> hi cjwatson
[07:18] <cjwatson> james_w: ouch at 153625 still being active
[07:19] <james_w> cjwatson: yep, every time I touch it it seems to get worse, so I'm going to stop poking it so much.
[07:20] <cjwatson> oh, just the double question thing
[07:20] <cjwatson> I think you're doing fine
[07:20] <ogra_cmpc> asac, my prob  is that i never tried it outside of ltsp befiore hardy and someone pulled it in as a dep because we use it in ltsp ... but i'm really not sure its relevant if pulse isnt running on localhost
[07:20] <asac> ouch
[07:20] <ogra_cmpc> s/isnt/is/
[07:21] <asac> ogra_cmpc: well ... i had several complains before it was a dep that sound didn't work without it
[07:21] <cjwatson> on my side, there are still quite a few installer bugs on https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/hardy/+bugs which I've been trying to attack
[07:22] <ogra_cmpc> asac, well, if you can relate it to that then i think its fine ...
[07:22] <ogra_cmpc> (i dont think it does any harm either, it just closes stale filehandles )
[07:22] <asac> ogra_cmpc: it caues frequent crashes
[07:23] <asac> ogra_cmpc: just go to youtube and play like 10 files
[07:23] <ogra_cmpc> thast what i'm doing every day to test the classmate
[07:23] <ogra_cmpc> it doesnt crash here
[07:23] <TheMuso> asac: I'll try it later and see what I get.
[07:23] <asac> ogra_cmpc: maybe its a race you don't see on your system ;)
[07:23] <ogra_cmpc> the OEM team is pretty focused on flash :)
[07:24] <asac> TheMuso: yeah ... its reported to happen if you hit back while playing and then forward again . do that until you get a crash
[07:25] <TheMuso> asac: Ok.
[07:26] <cjwatson> Do we need to install libflashsupport by default?
[07:26] <asac> thats the question
[07:26] <TheMuso> I think its only used for flash-nonfree.
[07:26] <cjwatson> or is it the converse, that things get worse when it *is* installed?
[07:26] <asac> yeah ... its not installed by default, but its installed whenever you install flashplugin-nonfree
[07:26] <ogra_cmpc> cjwatson, thast what we're discussing
[07:26] <TheMuso> The only way we'll really know is to play something through pulse while using flash without libflashsupport
[07:27] <cjwatson> ah, right, I'd missed the rdepends
[07:27] <asac> TheMuso: right. thats the use case that was broken before libflashsupport
[07:27] <TheMuso> asac: Right.
[07:27] <ogra_cmpc> the question is, do we *need* to route flash through pulse at all
[07:27] <TheMuso> ogra_cmpc: If users are playing music and want to play a flash game for example, yes.
[07:27] <ogra_cmpc> alsa should handle it directly just fine
[07:28] <TheMuso> ogra_cmpc: Unless pulse is busy doing something with the alsa device.
[07:28] <TheMuso> And, pulse talks directly to the hardware, and not through dmix.
[07:28] <asac> ogra_cmpc: then why do we need pulse? :)
[07:28] <ogra_cmpc> TheMuso, i thought we have the dmix backend active anyway
[07:28] <TheMuso> ogra_cmpc: No. Pulse uses hal to detect sound devices, then interfaces with them directly.
[07:28] <ogra_cmpc> asac, for the ding and doing sounds of your desktop
[07:29] <ogra_cmpc> right, but pulse is also able to use dmix in the backend
[07:29] <TheMuso> ogra_cmpc: Yes, but not if you use the hal module, which requires manual configuration.
[07:29] <ogra_cmpc> meh
[07:30] <TheMuso> This is also why some sound cards don't work with pulse. Either because they use a different sample format to what pulse uses, or they have non-standard mixer element n ames.
[07:30] <ogra_cmpc> asac, pulse is there because the libgnome devs dont manage to get a gestreamer backend working for libgnome
[07:30] <ogra_cmpc> thats the only real reason for it
[07:30] <asac> ogra_cmpc: damn. and now everyone has to suffer :/
[07:31] <ogra_cmpc> there were patches for libgnome->gstreamer ... i have no idea what they decided for pulse
[07:31] <TheMuso> ogra_cmpc: Pulse is much more useful than that, but it still has teething problems.
[07:31] <ogra_cmpc> s/what/why
[07:31] <asac> actually until pulse appeared i thought that sound servers were scheduled to die :/
[07:31] <TheMuso> ogra_cmpc: GNOME still doesn't use pulse directly. It uses the esound compatibility layer.
[07:32] <ogra_cmpc> TheMuso, it does a job most soundcards can do themselves ...
[07:32] <TheMuso> ogra_cmpc: Correctino, it does a job that dmix does. Most sound cards can't play more than one sample stream simultaneously.
[07:32] <TheMuso> correction
[07:32] <TheMuso> Anyway, we're getting OT.
[07:32] <ogra_cmpc> yeah
[07:32] <asac> yeah ... -> -devel
[07:33] <cjwatson> Right; are there any other fires people would like to point out in terms of Hardy bug-fixing at the moment?
[07:33] <asac> anyway, i think we should consider to drop libflashsupport from depends of flashplugin-nonfree
[07:33] <ogra_cmpc> make it a recommends
[07:34] <TheMuso> Is the config file prompt with bash-completion on upgrades known about?
[07:34] <asac> ogra_cmpc: suggests ;)
[07:34] <ogra_cmpc> or that :)
[07:34]  * TheMuso checks for a bug.
[07:34] <cjwatson> damn, I just noticed that but assumed that I had actually edited the file and forgotten about it
[07:34] <slangasek> TheMuso: sure, bug #210013
[07:34] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 210013 in bash "bash-completion config replacement prompt on upgrade from gutsy to hardy" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/210013
[07:35] <TheMuso> Right.
[07:35] <slangasek> hmm, currently unassigned; I think I can squeeze that one onto my schedule later this week if need be
[07:35] <doko> yes, can do this today or tomorrow
[07:36] <slangasek> doko: ok, I'll assign it to you instead then?
[07:36] <bryce> cjwatson: kees and I noticed a variety of HAL/USB breakages (cameras, scanners, et al) lately.  Maybe this is already known?
[07:36] <TheMuso> Well I can reproduce bug 91814, but simply lowering the priority of the question doesn't help, and I don't yet have any ideas at this point... Still looking however.
[07:36] <doko> but where do we want to put the old file, if the upgrade conflicts?
[07:36] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 91814 in openssl "libssl0.9.8 config asking me 'which services should be restarted to make them use the new lbraries?'" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/91814
[07:36] <cjwatson> bryce: do you have any references?
[07:37] <doko> slangasek: I don't care, I'll ping you tonight
[07:37] <slangasek> doko: I believe the customary procedure, if the user has modified the file before it was transferred to the new package, is to let the conffile prompt happen
[07:38] <bryce> cjwatson: I've one for the scanner (moment), but am just curious in general if there are widespread USB issues or if I'm just special
[07:38] <cjwatson> it isn't something I've heard about, but Ubuntu is too big for me to have heard of everything :)
[07:38] <slangasek> bryce: there've been recent (milestoned) bugs regarding scanner detection and permissions, does that sound familiar?
[07:38] <cjwatson> pitti might be better-informed in this case
[07:38] <bryce> slangasek: yep!
[07:39] <slangasek> yes, pitti's been actively working on scanner-related bugs in hal
[07:39] <cjwatson> the scanner group was taken out of the system at installation time
[07:39]  * slangasek nods
[07:39] <cjwatson> as in, we used to add the user to the scanner group, but don't any more
[07:39] <slangasek> in favor of polkit
[07:39] <bryce> here we go, bug #211569
[07:39] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 211569 in hal "xsane won't start unless run as root (Epson Perfection 1240)" [Medium,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/211569
[07:39] <cjwatson> if it's too hard to fix the rest of the system, we could revert that
[07:40] <cjwatson> though it would need a release note at least
[07:40] <cjwatson> (for upgrades from beta)
[07:40] <slangasek> this may fall into the realm of bugs we can't get all the feedback we need in time for release
[07:40] <cjwatson> that bug was filed from an upgraded system
[07:40] <cjwatson> so surely the scanner group would still have been there
[07:40] <slangasek> because of the need to identify individual USB IDs that need to be added
[07:41] <slangasek> cjwatson: scanner group is still there, but is no longer used for setting the device ownership, so...
[07:41] <bryce> I just ran as root and got my tax forms scanned and all is good.  but it surprised me to have that issue.  then I saw my camera also didn't work (which has _always_ worked with ubuntu), which made me think it might be worth bringing up.
[07:41] <cjwatson> right, I was just referring to the installer change
[07:42] <cjwatson> perhaps other people could check whether their cameras still work? I should check mine
[07:42] <TheMuso> I should check my scanner also.
[07:42] <slangasek> bryce: right, best to discuss this with pitti in the morning (since I believe he's still on US/Central time)
[07:42] <cjwatson> I'll flag it with Keybuk to make sure he's aware
[07:42]  * bryce nods
[07:43] <cjwatson> I agree that releasing with busted scanning and camera support would be pretty embarrassing
[07:44] <cjwatson> ok, before we finish, I sent out a link to https://wiki.canonical.com/DistroTeam/Platform/8.10, which has a few general preliminary themes for the 8.10 UDS, and various other bits and pieces I'd like to get cleared up
[07:45] <cjwatson> Jorge is going to be contacting participants soon with a summary of the issues we plan to raise, and something akin to a call for papers
[07:46] <cjwatson> Does anyone have anything else substantial that they'd like to put on that list from the start?
[07:46] <TheMuso> I've been pondering doing an a11y review of all our desktop tools, but not sure if it could be done in a cycle...
[07:46] <TheMuso> As in all the tools we've added/written.
[07:47] <doko> dropping i486 & i586 support
[07:47] <cjwatson> TheMuso: happy to start somewhere
[07:48] <TheMuso> cjwatson: Yeah, likely theres not much to be done, but I think it could do us no harm.
[07:48] <evand> ubiquity visual refresh? (artwork and slideshow), more work towards finishing the espresso spec.
[07:50] <TheMuso> And theres also changing speech backend for orca, but I don't think thats big/important enough for that page. I will be specing that in any case.
[07:50] <cjwatson> oh, I should say a brief word on how we're doing scheduling for the next UDS
[07:51] <cjwatson> to avoid all the general confusion around it, we aren't going to be using the auto-scheduler
[07:51] <cjwatson> we will have manually scheduled tracks, as we did the last time
[07:52] <cjwatson> we will also have a few rooms (I think 2-4 depending on the day) which will be available for whiteboard scheduling
[07:52] <cjwatson> a bit like FOSSCamp last time
[07:52] <cjwatson> of course the output should still be recorded in Launchpad, and it does no harm to register a spec in advance in order to set the scope of the discussion you want to have
[07:58] <doko> I'll put python3 on this list, hopefully getting more than one person in this room ...
[07:59] <cjwatson> I'd be interested to know what its performance characteristics are like
[07:59] <doko> not worse than 2.x
[08:00] <cjwatson> ok, thanks, I've added the above to the list
[08:00] <cjwatson> and it's time
[08:00] <cjwatson> sorry again I was late, and thanks all
[08:00] <TheMuso> thanks.
[08:00] <doko> ahh, and maybe the whole security related toolchain stuff, but I'll have to talk with infinity
[08:00] <ogra_cmpc> thanks
[08:00] <asac> thanks!
[08:00] <evand> thanks
[08:00] <james_w> thanks all.
[08:00] <cjwatson> doko: things like PIE you mean?
[08:01] <doko> cjwatson: yes, coming with a 10% performance penalty
[08:01] <slangasek> thanks!
[08:01] <bryce> thanks
[08:02] <ArneGoetje> thanks
[09:48] <Keybuk> cjwatson: hmm?
[09:56] <Keybuk> cjwatson: cameras and scanners permissions should be handled by HAL now
[09:57] <Keybuk> it'll add ACLs for users based on a PolicyKit that says users on active console sessions (ConsoleKit) get permission
[09:57] <slangasek> Keybuk: yes, but currently it doesn't correctly detect all scanners, and evidently there may be issues with some cameras as well
[09:59] <slangasek> looks like bug #195782 is marked as fixed, so at least HP multifunction scanners are supposed to work now
[09:59] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 195782 in hplip "Users not automatically added to "scanner" group: No scanning functions of HP multi-function in Hardy" [Medium,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/195782
[10:00] <slangasek> but bryce mentioned bug #211569, which is an Epson...
[10:00] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 211569 in hal "xsane won't start unless run as root (Epson Perfection 1240)" [Medium,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/211569
[10:40] <Keybuk> slangasek: it detects the list of scanners that sane knows about?
[10:40] <Keybuk> we've *ALWAYS* had a huge list of scanners that didn't work
[10:41] <Keybuk> the new stuff fixes multi-function at least, since it can have ACLs for both the scanner and printer bits -- instead of needing to be simultaneously in the scanner and printer groups :p
[10:42] <Keybuk> pitti is the man to speak to, anyway
[10:43]  * slangasek nods
[10:43] <Keybuk> another reason for the HAL switch, other than fixing multi-function and it's just the right way
[10:44] <Keybuk> is that udev matching libusb devices is hard now
[10:44] <Keybuk> since depending which kernel you're running, you need different rules
[10:44] <Keybuk> so it's very hard to have a huge list of matches that work with multiple kernel versions
[10:44] <Keybuk> whereas HAL just handled that opaquely
[13:01] <RichEd> education meeting starts in 2 mins ... get your coffee now !
[13:02] <ogra_cmpc> moo
[13:03] <stgraber> ogra_cmpc: What's the name of the option when you insert the Add-on CD to start g-a-i ?
[13:03] <stgraber> ogra_cmpc: I'm working on the testcase for RC/Final and don't have the add-on CD around
[13:03] <ogra_cmpc> instal extensions or so
[13:03] <ogra_cmpc> i'm just rsyncing mine
[13:07] <RichEd> stgraber: you put a link up the other day re italc in #edubuntu ... lost it due to local power failures
[13:07] <RichEd> can you pop it up again if it is still relevant
[13:08] <stgraber> https://edge.launchpad.net/~edubuntu-italc-devel/+archive
[13:08] <RichEd> ogra_cmpc: regarding the chat earlier about specs for UDS ... and the moving of many of our "education needs" across into the server team ...
[13:08] <stgraber> iTalc using the avahi launcher so you don't need to manually add the computers. Note that the key transfer is still required though
[13:09] <ogra_cmpc> yeah
[13:09] <ogra_cmpc> we should have a spec for the key stuff
[13:09] <RichEd> how do we handle how do we handle requests from our target audience that fall into that category ?
[13:09] <ogra_cmpc> to develop a small gui or so
[13:09] <stgraber> indeed, a key transfer UI would be great
[13:09] <ogra_cmpc> anyway, background:
[13:09] <ogra_cmpc> my duties are education only now
[13:09] <RichEd> do we make a request to the other team(s) ? and manage our target audience expectations and keep them informed ?
[13:10] <ogra_cmpc> that limits my work to be not ltsp,network auth or so ...
[13:10] <ogra_cmpc> i.e. plain edu stuff
[13:10] <RichEd> yep ... noted ... but we are still the interface to our target audience ...
[13:10] <ogra_cmpc> the things i can come up with as specs here are edubuntu-menus and enhancing italc
[13:10] <RichEd> just saying ... oh that is not our department is perhaps not the best way to win them over ...
[13:10] <RichEd> :)
[13:10] <ogra_cmpc> so i need input from the community side on more
[13:11] <ogra_cmpc> no, indeed, my job is also to provide a communication path
[13:11] <RichEd> so i know you will not do the work on server stuff ... but should we not still be the interface to "our people"
[13:11] <RichEd> no answer needed now, but as we get a request that falls into that sort of hand-over, let's come up with a way to manage that communication
[13:11] <ogra_cmpc> we (me) should be the interface to get an initial connection up
[13:12] <ogra_cmpc> but working will be more effective for the server team if they communicate directly
[13:12] <RichEd> some quick education news snippets for those who are interested:
[13:12] <RichEd> http://education.zdnet.com/?p=1615
[13:12] <ogra_cmpc> so aqll i will do is give guidance and if people need it i'll handhold them
[13:12] <RichEd> "9000 computers in Swiss schools have been dual-booting Windows and and Ubuntu for some time now in anticipation of guidelines from the Switzerland’s Department of Public Instruction, whose motto is “Long Live Free Software.”"
[13:13] <RichEd> "Beginning this September, all 9000 computers will run only Ubuntu and free and open source software. "
[13:13] <RichEd> ---
[13:13] <ogra_cmpc> stgraber, so any idea for some sweet edu specs ?
[13:13] <ogra_cmpc> (dont worry that i wont have enough to work on though, my job has lots of new duties nowadays :) )
[13:14] <stgraber> hmm, not a lot being non-ltsp related. iTalc of course will need improvement as it'll be used not only on LTSP setups
[13:14] <ogra_cmpc> yeah
[13:14] <stgraber> I'm looking forward to the plugin system it will get soon (according to upstream)
[13:15] <stgraber> so we will be able to increated things like avahi or LDAP easily inside iTalc itself
[13:16] <ogra_cmpc> nice :)
[13:16] <stgraber> I'll probably be a bit more busy than I currently am during the end of this school year, final exams and stuff like that (also the reason why I can't stay for UDS)
[13:17] <RichEd> hey pips1 :)
[13:17] <stgraber> hi pips1
[13:17] <pips1> hi
[13:17] <RichEd> hows the offspring ??
[13:17] <pips1> he is very well, thanks :-)
[13:17] <RichEd> pips1: see ^ http://education.zdnet.com/?p=1615
[13:17] <pips1> first tooth
[13:17] <RichEd> wow ... that's early ... hope he is not niggling & keeping you up at night
[13:17] <pips1> *click*
[13:18] <pips1> he is niggling a bit, but not much, he is such a nice fella
[13:19] <RichEd> pips1: current topic f.y.i. -> propose specs for UDS
[13:19] <RichEd> suggestions ?
[13:19] <pips1> re 9000 PCs in swiss schools going ubuntu... great news !
[13:19] <RichEd> read the whole article and links ... government mandate to push linux into schools with the view that open source = education
[13:20] <Hobbsee> take over the world.
[13:20] <RichEd> not cost saving ... but mindset of a better system
[13:20] <RichEd> Hobbsee: we already are :)
[13:20] <Hobbsee> RichEd: any eta?
[13:20] <Hobbsee> RichEd: (on when it's done)
[13:20] <RichEd> see this also from zdnet
 " However, one thing stands out from all the conversations - the number of people who seem to confuse Ubuntu for Linux.  I can tell because they will either use both terms interchangeably or be using the name Ubuntu in a generic sense.  Moreover, it seems to be confined to Ubuntu.  I’ve not seen the name of another distro used in the same way.
[13:21] <pips1> I know folks in the government of geneva who are behind this... we did the trip in silicon valley together, after the ubuntu developer summit in seville...
[13:21] <RichEd> ^ http://blogs.zdnet.com/hardware/?p=1641&tag=nl.e622
[13:22] <pips1> the theme of our trip was "open standards"... they said "Last year's tour was also extremely helpful to shape ideas and give a
[13:22] <pips1> positive push."
[13:22] <RichEd> pips1: if you can help get a relationship going with them ... that would be great ... we can assist them (like UDS etc.) and they can give us great references and case study
[13:23] <RichEd> a government level one ... not ground up school by school
[13:23] <pips1> right
[13:23] <pips1> sure, I'm happy to make the connection
[13:24] <pips1> I'll be spending a whole week with one of the two guys in silicon valley again... in may.
[13:24] <stgraber> let's hope other cantons will follow the learn from Geneva .. for example Neuchâtel :)
[13:24]  * ogra_cmpc sent a request for spec input to the ML
[13:25] <RichEd> pips1: Manuel Grandjean, director of the Media Service Schools <- any knowledge of this chap or his department ?
[13:25] <pips1> stgraber: fingers crossed :-)
[13:25] <pips1> RichEd: nope
[13:26] <RichEd> oh also news re Spain ... the guadalinex development company is pitching for molinux ... and proposing ubuntu
[13:26] <RichEd> fingers crossed on that one as well
[13:27] <Hobbsee> any chance you can get their default channel in their irc clients as #ubuntu-es, not #ubuntu?
[13:27] <Hobbsee> ditto guadalinex.
[13:28] <ogra_cmpc> Hobbsee, why would we do that while we're just trying to join up all the communities ?
[13:29] <Hobbsee> ogra_cmpc: that's a serious question?
[13:29] <ogra_cmpc> yes
[13:29] <ogra_cmpc> we're working towards exactly the opposite
[13:29] <ogra_cmpc> (one of the main reasons for edubuntu to become an addon)
[13:29] <ogra_cmpc> (with the hope that others follow that path for their derivatives)
[13:30] <Hobbsee> ogra_cmpc: mainly, because they come in, say 'ola', don't speak english much, demand that we speak spanish instead, and then, once we do get spanish translators, they ask for people's msn addresses to chat.
[13:30] <Hobbsee> ogra_cmpc: #ubuntu is an english support channel.
[13:30] <Hobbsee> it's *not* a multilanguage channel, and I hope it never will be - it's too big as it is.
[13:30] <ogra_cmpc> Hobbsee, guadalinex users are in the majority kids ...
[13:31] <Hobbsee> ogra_cmpc: i've got no problem with that, i'm just saying that the default channel choice for it is therefore unsuitable, and if you've got contacts in that area, it would be great to get it changed.
[13:31] <ogra_cmpc> so indeed they behave a little "younger"
[13:31] <stgraber> Hobbsee: an idea would be to have the language-switcher tool change the default IRC channel (if the user has never started xchat)
[13:31] <stgraber> Hobbsee: not sure how easy that's though (you'd need a list of active support channel for each languages)
[13:31] <Hobbsee> stgraber: yeah.  that has been thought about, but no one's implemented it in current state.
[13:31] <ogra_cmpc> right
[13:32] <ogra_cmpc> we lack the infrastructure atm for such automation
[13:32] <Hobbsee> ogra_cmpc: again, i've got absolutely no problem with the age of the people - it's just that they're speaking spanish, offtopic stuff, in an english, support-only channel.
[13:32] <ogra_cmpc> Hobbsee, and how do you distinguish them from "other" ubuntu users ?
[13:33] <ogra_cmpc> (how do ypou know its only guadalinex users)
[13:33] <ogra_cmpc> we're massively offtopic btw :)
[13:34] <Hobbsee> ogra_cmpc: all from the same subnet.  whois says that it's in spain, and there are various articles about guadalinex's uptake in internet cafe's, etc, in spain.
[13:34] <Hobbsee> ogra_cmpc: therefore, it's *likely* to be guadalinex.
[13:34] <ogra_cmpc> well, guessing on IP range or newspapaers isnt really accurate
[13:34] <Hobbsee> ogra_cmpc: and the 'ola' with no english words after that kinda gives it away...
[13:34] <ogra_cmpc> i think its simply a general spoanish habit
[13:35] <RichEd> respectfully agree with ogra_cmpc that we are off topic ...
[13:35] <Hobbsee> then we'll just forward that entire subnet to -es from our side.  Thanks for your help.
[13:35] <RichEd> can we save this for later ?
[13:35] <Hobbsee> RichEd: apologies.
[13:35] <RichEd> spec's discussion first
[13:35] <RichEd> Hobbsee: no problem :)
[13:36] <RichEd> also we do not have much control over the ubuntu set-up ... so your request straight to ubuntu peops may be more effective
[13:36] <RichEd> ogra_cmpc now builds an add on on top of the ubuntu base
[13:36] <RichEd> so we're the education desktop only
[13:36] <ogra_cmpc> s/control over the ubuntu set-up/control over the guadalinex set-up/ i guess
[13:36] <ogra_cmpc> oh, thats what you mean
[13:37] <RichEd> and cjwatson manages the relationship with guadalinex and other derivatives
[13:37] <RichEd> :)
[13:37]  * Hobbsee scratches head over how changing it for ubuntu, not guadalinex, will solve the problem.
[13:37] <Hobbsee> right, OK.
[13:37] <ogra_cmpc> well, i see the point Hobbsee has and its fixable in ubuntu (totally not edu related though and just pointiong at guadalinex is wrong here as well)
[13:37] <ogra_cmpc> generally i agree with her :)
[13:37] <RichEd> Hobbsee: guadalinex take ubuntu and add on to that ... not edubuntu ...
[13:38] <RichEd> besides off the record ... most of the schools in andalucia run ubuntu native on their desktops
[13:38] <ogra_cmpc> same goes for other parts of spain
[13:39] <RichEd> the guadalinex is deployed more in libraries / public access kiosks / pensioner portals etc.
[13:39] <nixternal> well well well
[13:39] <RichEd> govt civic responsibility
[13:39] <nixternal> I woke up early and look what I see :)
[13:39] <Hobbsee> RichEd: right, i was unaware.
[13:39] <stgraber> hi nixternal
[13:39] <nixternal> howdy
[13:39] <RichEd> Hobbsee: that point is not good to bandy about due to political sensitivities ... but f.y.i.
[13:39] <ogra_cmpc> RichEd, so any spec suggestions from the marketing side we should put down ?
[13:40] <RichEd> mr nixternal sir ... how's the ubuntu bible ?
[13:40] <nixternal> done!
[13:40] <ogra_cmpc> \o?
[13:40] <ogra_cmpc> err
[13:40] <ogra_cmpc> \o/
[13:40] <RichEd> ogra_cmpc: i'll scratch around and see what i can come up with ... there are some people i can query
[13:40] <ogra_cmpc> good
[13:40] <nixternal> next edition is getting a rewrite with possibly separating LTSP into its own chapter
[13:41] <ogra_cmpc> lets see what i get as return fro the ML request
[13:41] <RichEd> \o? <- looks like ogra_cmpc holding up a hand to ask a question and scratching his head
[13:41] <ogra_cmpc> yeah
[13:41] <ogra_cmpc> nixternal, that would be great, ltsp really needs to be a separate chapter in the future
[13:42] <RichEd> ogra_cmpc: can we consider "new processes for education requests" as a spec for discussion ?
[13:42] <ogra_cmpc> oh, before i forget RichEd can you extend my edubuntu-members membership ?
[13:42] <RichEd> like how users submit & and how we manage requests for new s/w package inclusion ?
[13:42] <ogra_cmpc> it runs out tomorrow and even though i'm admin i seem not to be able to extend it for myself
[13:43] <RichEd> i know we have processes ... but we need a "follow the yellow footsteps" level for edu people who are non-tech and busy teachers
[13:43] <ogra_cmpc> RichEd, brqainstorm.ubuntu.com  covers a lot of that
[13:43] <ogra_cmpc> brainstorm.ubuntu.com
[13:43]  * RichEd will check ...
[13:43] <ogra_cmpc> not sure how moch wee need extra
[13:44] <stgraber> oh, hang on a sec I have a page with some ideas from brainstorm
[13:44] <cjwatson> I do need to get top-level education requests in quite soon, so that we can integrate them into the tracks
[13:44] <stgraber> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UDS-Intrepid/Brainstorm
[13:44] <ogra_cmpc> cjwatson, RichEd is aware of the timeframe i gave you
[13:45] <stgraber> hmm, it seems to be mainly marketing stuff though
[13:45] <ogra_cmpc> weekend is deadline for the initial list
[13:45] <RichEd> cjwatson: yep ... we're aware ... i'll propose some generic topics that can be refined if we do not have detail by monday
[13:45] <ogra_cmpc> "Encourage Ubuntu preloads in university computer stores "
[13:45] <RichEd> many of the things from my side will be user process related ... not dev specs
[13:45]  * ogra_cmpc wonders what exactly that shal mean
[13:45] <cjwatson> right, which is fine
[13:46] <RichEd> there are existing dev processes to handle requirements ... we need to get our audience understanding how to get things into that pipeline
[13:46] <RichEd> like new packages for main inclusion etc.
[13:46] <RichEd> and what that entails from their side when proposing
[13:47] <RichEd> one thing sabdfl has been asking for (for a while) is that we build a core group of "teacher test & review & feedback" people
[13:47]  * ogra_cmpc glares at "Default Screensaver Advertising "
[13:47] <ogra_cmpc> *shudder*
[13:47] <RichEd> people who are more teacher than tech ... and who use the s/w for classroom / learner interaction
[13:47] <RichEd> what they like and do not like ... and what they would love to have
[13:48] <RichEd> that's a user layer above the usual "how do i authenticate my 100 w/s against XXX and LDAP"
[13:48] <stgraber> http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/category/14 seems mainly marketing or community related, not much software inclusion proposal or tech stuff
[13:48] <RichEd> sabdfl feels that will win us pull from the educators and not just the push from the admin side
[13:48]  * RichEd agrees
[13:49] <ogra_cmpc> "Open Office Extras " seems like something for the addon
[13:50] <RichEd> ogra_cmpc: any ideas on how we can provide easy links to education resources ... that sort of stuff ?
[13:50] <RichEd> not just as a wiki page link, but somehow direct from the desktop / menu ?
[13:51]  * ogra_cmpc cant belive http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/idea/106/
[13:51] <stgraber> RichEd: maybe on the About edubuntu page ?
[13:51] <ogra_cmpc> we surely dont advertise ltsp enough
[13:51] <cjwatson> get things into that pipeline> we would like that to be through developer mediation
[13:51] <cjwatson> brainstorm is the ideal place for this
[13:51] <ogra_cmpc> about edubuntu and on the edubuntu browser page
[13:51] <RichEd> stgraber: well we do not want to blur the line between *buntu and external resources ... so i'd say no at first though
[13:52] <RichEd> *though
[13:52] <RichEd> *thought
[13:52] <cjwatson> we don't want to encourage users to write and submit feature specifications directly
[13:52] <cjwatson> the reason is that feature specifications are detailed software design documents, which fundamentally require development skill and experience to write
[13:52] <RichEd> more like links to education content & education projects ...
[13:52] <ogra_cmpc> RichEd, the default browser page is the place
[13:53] <cjwatson> (this may be obvious; the reason I stress it is that it has not been obvious in the past)
[13:53] <RichEd> which we have reviewed, but which are not neccessarily associated with or linked to
[13:53] <ogra_cmpc> not in your face like a first run wizard and not to hidden to miss it
[13:54] <RichEd> ogra_cmpc & stgraber ... i'm thinking about things that are useful for teachers, and which encourage the teachers to network amongst themselves
[13:54] <ogra_cmpc> RichEd, having a like wioth "educational suggestions" in there that points to a page on edubuntu.org
[13:54] <ogra_cmpc> so we're not bound to a release with that
[13:54] <RichEd> ogra_cmpc: yep ... something like that ... and also pointing them to #ubuntu-education
[13:55] <RichEd> so that when they install, they feel like they are now part of a community of education people with the same needs & goals
[13:55] <RichEd> which is quite different to the ubuntu community who build s/w
[13:55] <ogra_cmpc> are there actually people in #ubuntu-education at all ?
[13:55] <ogra_cmpc> heh
[13:56] <stgraber> they all are in #edubuntu too :)
[13:56] <ogra_cmpc> seems not really used
[13:56] <RichEd> ogra_cmpc: it goes up and down, but simonanibal and kgoetz always answer people who pop in there
[13:56] <ogra_cmpc> what about merging edubuntu and ubuntu-education Z?
[13:56] <RichEd> the idea there is that it is about topics above the desktop
[13:56] <RichEd> ogra_cmpc: that will happen with the name change ...]
[13:56] <ogra_cmpc> with a redirect that moves people to #edubuntu
[13:56] <ogra_cmpc> (since there is actually audience)
[13:57] <ogra_cmpc> (and knowledge)
[13:57] <RichEd> which brings me to a spec for 8.10 "what naming & references need to migrate for the Ubuntu Education changes"
[13:57] <ogra_cmpc> i though that was finalized already
[13:58] <RichEd> there are many in the desktop, & help ... and the whole edubuntu.org & #edubuntu need to be discussed
[13:58]  * ogra_cmpc doesnt understand the last sentence
[13:58] <Hobbsee> RichEd: forwarding channels is simple enough
[13:58] <ogra_cmpc> oh you mean you want to let edubuntu die compeltely ?
[13:59] <RichEd> about edubuntu needs to move to about ubuntu education ... as an example ...
[13:59] <ogra_cmpc> no
[13:59] <ogra_cmpc> not as long as we install it from the edubuntu-desktop package
[13:59] <RichEd> ogra_cmpc: nope ... we will keep edubuntu and not just walk away from it ...
[13:59] <ogra_cmpc> right
[13:59] <ogra_cmpc> so keep its docs as well :)
[13:59] <RichEd> but we need to discuss all of this ... not make decisions on behalf of the community\
[14:00] <ogra_cmpc> right
[14:00] <RichEd> so that's why we need a spec for fair and honest debate
[14:00] <ogra_cmpc> sounds good
[14:00] <RichEd> there is potential for confusion ...
[14:00] <RichEd> the new audiences we reach out to from now on will be exposed to ubuntu education as the "brand"
[14:00] <ogra_cmpc> i would object to drop the term edubuntu from the actual edubuntu deoumentation as long as we keep it as a desktop
[14:00] <RichEd> we need to ensure that the edubuntu side is not confusing for them
[14:00] <stgraber> indeed, the changes that were introduced with Hardy seem to be quite confusing for a lot of people (CD changes being the main problem of course)
[14:01] <ogra_cmpc> i'm fine adding stuff for an ubuntu-education edition though
[14:01] <ogra_cmpc> yeah
[14:01] <RichEd> ogra_cmpc: pro's and cons of both ... we need to debate and consider and propose
[14:01] <RichEd> hence the need for a spec ... i'll draft and call for comment on a wiki page ...
[14:02] <ogra_cmpc> even worse is that people read that http://www.ubuntu.com/products/whatisubuntu/serveredition and try to install ltsp off the server CD sinvce the CD change
[14:03] <ogra_cmpc> the ltsp statements there urgently need to go
[14:03] <ogra_cmpc> since it kleaves you with a totally broken setup
[14:03] <ogra_cmpc> which generates a sh*tload of support
[14:05] <stgraber> I have to go for 20min or so, just wanted to mention : https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/Cases/EdubuntuAddOnCD
[14:05] <stgraber> please fix/update/improve :)
[14:06] <ogra_cmpc> heno already  mailed me, i'll go over it before the weekend
[14:07]  * RichEd is back in 5 min ...
[14:08] <ogra_cmpc> could we adjourn if everybody leaves ?
[14:09] <Hobbsee> looks like you've only got one channel to forward
[14:09] <Hobbsee> no others are registered in the edubuntu namespace.
[14:09] <ogra_cmpc> we dont hav eany to forward atm, that was just a suggestion :)
[14:10] <ogra_cmpc> i thought there were edubuntu-es and -de
[14:10] <Hobbsee> if they are, they're not registered, or they're not showing up
[14:10] <ogra_cmpc> yeah, -de is there
[14:11] <ogra_cmpc> i think -de wqas registered through the loco team
[14:11] <RichEd> ogra_cmpc: i've got no more issues for today ... so adjourning is fine ...
[14:12] <RichEd> will renew your membership in a short while
[14:12]  * ogra_cmpc wonders if RichEd saw his request for extending his edubuntu-members menmbership
[14:12] <ogra_cmpc> heh, snap
[14:12] <ogra_cmpc> thanks
[14:12] <Hobbsee> ogra_cmpc: please turn secret mode off, then.
[14:12] <RichEd> crackle & pop ... bang the gong when you are ready
[14:12] <ogra_cmpc> just dont forget it, else i'm no edubuntu member tomorrow
[14:12] <ogra_cmpc> going once
[14:12] <ogra_cmpc> going twice
[14:13] <ogra_cmpc> adjourned
[14:13] <ogra_cmpc> hah
[15:45] <Hobbsee> @schedule sydney
[15:45] <ubotu> Schedule for Australia/Sydney: 10 Apr 07:00: Server Team | 11 Apr 06:00: Security Team | 11 Apr 22:00: MOTU | 17 Apr 07:00: Server Team | 24 Apr 07:00: Server Team | 01 May 07:00: Server Team
[15:45] <Hobbsee> hmm, won't make that MOTU meeting.
[15:45] <zul> Hobbsee: god hates you :)
[15:46] <Hobbsee> heh
[15:46] <Hobbsee> or australia
[15:46]  * Hobbsee doens't usually have work on fri nights, but does this week
[15:46] <RichEd> Hobbsee: nope ... that's south african's that hate australia ;)
[15:47] <RichEd> (sports joke)
[15:47] <zul> meh...rugby...
[15:48] <RichEd> zul: a game played by men with oddly shaped balls
[15:48] <Hobbsee> heh
[15:48] <Hobbsee> rugby.  bah humbug.
[15:49] <zul> RichEd: haha
[16:57] <davmor2> hello heno
[16:57] <pedro_> hey hey
[16:58] <heno> hey davmor2, pedro_
[16:59] <bdmurray> hi there
[17:00] <davmor2> hello bdmurray, pedro_
[17:01] <heno> ogasawara_, liw, cgregan, stgraber, jcastro, nand - meeting ping
[17:01] <cgregan> here
[17:01]  * ogasawara_ waves
[17:01] <heno> Welcome everyone!
[17:01] <nand_at_work> hi
[17:02] <heno> #startmeeting
[17:02] <MootBot> Meeting started at 18:02. The chair is heno.
[17:02] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[17:02] <heno> Agenda at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/Meetings
[17:02] <heno> [TOPIC] ISO smoke testing
[17:02] <MootBot> New Topic:  ISO smoke testing
[17:03] <heno> I wrote an email to the QA list about this earlier
[17:03] <heno> we'll probably start smoke testing on Friday and those of us who are around on the weekend can continue then
[17:03] <stgraber> hello
[17:04] <heno> volunteers are welcome!
[17:04] <heno> these results are not tracked on iso.qa.u.c and are a bit less formal in nature
[17:04]  * davmor2 waves I'll be around friday and some of the weekend 
[17:05] <heno> basically try to hammer away at commonly used stuff to shake out bugs early
[17:06] <heno> I'll blog and post in the forum as well after the meeting
[17:06] <stgraber> heno: you could blog about it on blog.qa.ubuntu.com
[17:06] <davmor2> sound like a good plan
[17:06] <heno> any other obvious test points we should add to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/ISO/Smoke ?
[17:07] <davmor2> stgraber: planet ubuntu would get more coverage
[17:07] <pedro_> is the blog.qa.ubuntu.com on p.u.c ?
[17:07] <heno> that would be good
[17:07] <stgraber> heno: OpenOffice ?
[17:07] <cgregan> heno: How about multimedia?
[17:08] <bdmurray> Shouldn't Wubi be in the "install" table?
[17:08] <stgraber> pedro_: not yet, I'm not sure I can simply add it to planet without asking the sysadmins ...
[17:08] <heno> both good ideas
[17:08] <davmor2> heno: I think the only issue I see is with the AD testing I'm pretty sure not many, if at all, have an active directory at home.
[17:08] <heno> bdmurray: probably, yes
[17:09] <pedro_> stgraber: ok
[17:09] <davmor2> heno: evolution/thunderbird
[17:09] <heno> Is AD a server or desktop team topic?
[17:10] <heno> I guess we are looking to test the Gnome support, right?
[17:10] <davmor2> pass open likewise isn't that specific
[17:10] <davmor2> hangon
[17:11] <heno> OOo, evolution, etc.> major apps do get tested by the community though in daily use
[17:11] <davmor2> http://likewisesoftware.com/products/likewise_open/
[17:11] <MootBot> LINK received:  http://likewisesoftware.com/products/likewise_open/
[17:11] <heno> though testing these with empty profiles might reveal issues
[17:12] <davmor2> heno: looks like desktop as it joins Linux etc to ad
[17:13] <heno> ok, thanks for the feedback. I'll tweak the page a bit
[17:13] <heno> next
[17:13] <heno> [TOPIC] Taking Brainstorm ideas to UDS
[17:13] <MootBot> New Topic:  Taking Brainstorm ideas to UDS
[17:13] <heno> jcastro: are you here?
[17:14] <heno> I know jcastro sent out an email yesterday to everyone who is signed up to attend UDS, asking them to look at brainstorm and find topics for UDS
[17:15] <stgraber> not only those attending UDS, those attending FOSSCamp too it seems :)
[17:15] <heno> stgraber: ok, even better :)
[17:15] <heno> he set up this page with suggested topics https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UDS-Intrepid/Brainstorm
[17:16] <heno> but other topics can be picked too of course
[17:16] <heno> stgraber, nand_at_work: does this approach seem sensible to you?
[17:17] <heno> Are there other things we should be doing in this respect?
[17:18] <stgraber> seems to be a good idea, don't know what the result will be at UDS though. I heard of some FOSSCamp like room with a whiteboard for scheduling
[17:20] <emgent> @schedule rome
[17:20] <ubotu> Schedule for Europe/Rome: 09 Apr 23:00: Server Team | 10 Apr 22:00: Security Team | 11 Apr 14:00: MOTU | 16 Apr 23:00: Server Team | 23 Apr 23:00: Server Team | 30 Apr 23:00: Server Team
[17:20] <heno> right, UDS will mix scheduled sessions with on-the-fly scheduling on whiteboards
[17:20] <stgraber> Would be good to have some kind of flag on brainstorm so the users know it'll be discussed at UDS (or has been proposed for discussion)
[17:21] <heno> We can add a notice to the devel comment section
[17:21] <davmor2> stgraber: it might be better to have a flag for after uds
[17:21] <heno> we should also add links to blog posts or mailing list discussions about a topic
[17:22] <heno> perhaps a link section that devs and admins can set
[17:22] <heno> which is more general than the spec and bug links
[17:23] <stgraber> note: you can put links in the devel comment
[17:23] <heno> yep, we should just institute that as common practice
[17:24] <heno> ok, so that seems on track
[17:24] <heno> [TOPIC] Introducing mobile test cases
[17:24] <MootBot> New Topic:  Introducing mobile test cases
[17:25] <heno> cgregan and davmor2 have been adding and refining UME test cases
[17:25] <heno> lots!
[17:25] <heno> e.g. https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/Cases/UMEdesktop
[17:26] <heno> So now is the time to join in with some cutting edge mobile testing
[17:26] <heno> The interface can be tested in Xephyr and virtual machines
[17:27] <stgraber> heno: are they considering using the QA tracker in the future ?
[17:27] <cgregan> heno: correction...VM is still a work in progress
[17:27] <heno> it's actually very important to do so because since there isn't much mobile HW out there, this stuff gets almost no testing
[17:27] <heno> cgregan: ah, getting ahead of myself
[17:28] <cgregan> heno: Hopefully next week we will have VM
[17:28] <heno> I thought you could boot an ISO, but you did mention some X issues
[17:28] <davmor2> Xephyr works relatively well currently although not perfectly :(
[17:28] <heno> stgraber: indeed, probably for Intrepid Alpha 1 or 2
[17:29] <cgregan> heno: ISO fails to load X so you stop at rc script execution
[17:29] <heno> stgraber will be at FOSSCamp and cgregan at UDS - I'm hoping there might be a few hours of overlap so you can meet and talk about this
[17:29] <cgregan> Sounds good
[17:30] <stgraber> heno: ok, then we'll probably use another sub-domain for them as I don't think they have exactly the same milestone as we do for ISO
[17:30] <stgraber> cgregan, heno: I'm leaving Prague end of afternoon on Sunday
[17:30] <heno> stgraber: we might want to add a section like mobile.qa.u.c or add a derivative to iso.qa.u.c
[17:30] <heno> or perhaps we'll need both
[17:30] <davmor2> stgraber: I think the big issue will be that the test is so very different too
[17:31] <heno> stgraber: the plan is that they will for Intrepid AFAIK
[17:31] <cgregan> stgraber: I fly in Sunday morning.
[17:32] <stgraber> ok, so if they have the same milestones as we do and also use cdimage (which is currently the case) it's possible to use the ISO tracker for UME testing
[17:33] <stgraber> cgregan: ok, so it should be possible to have a talk with you :)
[17:34] <heno> stgraber: mobile has only just gotten bug tracking set up properly (thanks cgregan) and test tracking is next
[17:34] <heno> there is also a use case for private test tracking here actually
[17:35] <heno> for people doing custom mobile builds
[17:35] <heno> stgraber, cgregan: we can take the details of this to email and hopefully Prague
[17:36] <stgraber> heno: sure
[17:36] <cgregan> heno: Definitely
[17:36] <heno> in the meantime, everyone is encouraged to play with the mobile builds!
[17:36] <heno> any other topics for the meeting?
[17:37] <davmor2> no
[17:37] <pedro_> not from me
[17:38] <stgraber> we launched http://blog.qa.ubuntu.com, so everyone in the QA team (the Drupal group) can now post blog posts here
[17:38] <stgraber> those have to be related to Ubuntu QA testing or the Brainstorm website though
[17:38] <stgraber> I'll ping the sysadmins to see if I can add it to Planet
[17:38] <heno> Excellent, I'll try that!
[17:38] <pedro_> stgraber: that'd be great ;-)
[17:39]  * pedro_ subscribing to the rss feed in the meantime
[17:39] <heno> if it has an RSS feed you can probably add it directly
[17:39] <heno> if it's the right format
[17:40] <heno> there is already a few non-person feeds like package-of-the-week and LP news
[17:40] <heno> *there are
[17:40] <stgraber> ok, I'll add it to Planet then
[17:40] <heno> cool
[17:40] <heno> hello liw :)
[17:41] <liw> I shoudln't work, I start missing meetings
[17:41] <heno> ok, I think we're done
[17:41] <nand_at_work> hmm... me too :/
[17:41]  * nand_at_work is back, too late
[17:41] <pedro_> haha i almost miss the last desktop one, I'm hating the DST
[17:41] <heno> #endmeeting
[17:41] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 18:41.
[17:42]  * nand_at_work 's going home
[19:44] <Syntux> There is a server meeting after one hour, right ?
[19:46] <gcleric> the server meeting is in 1 hour 14min
[19:47] <Syntux> great, thank you :-)
[19:50] <nijaba> Syntux: actually the server meeting is in 2h10m from now
[19:51] <nijaba> @now
[19:51] <ubotu> Current time in Etc/UTC: April 09 2008, 18:51:00 - Next meeting: Server Team in 2 hours 8 minutes
[19:54] <Syntux> oh hmm, I wonder why they picked such timing, 6UTC would be wonderful for most of human beings
[21:58] <zul> evening..
[21:58]  * mathiaz waves
[21:58] <jdstrand> o/
[21:59] <nijaba> o/
[21:59]  * Koon waves
[21:59] <owh> Greetings and salutations fellow travelers.
[22:00] <kirkland> [o]
[22:01] <sommer> hey all
[22:01] <zul> hi Koon
[22:02] <mathiaz> So - let's get started
[22:02] <mathiaz> #startmeeting
[22:02] <MootBot> Meeting started at 23:02. The chair is mathiaz.
[22:02] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[22:02]  * mathiaz waves at MootBot :)
[22:03] <mathiaz> Today's agenda: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Meeting
[22:03] <mathiaz> Previous meeting minutes: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/Server/20080402
[22:04] <mathiaz> owh: I've noticed you've attached the patches
[22:05] <owh> Yup, though I suspect they won't ever actually get used :)
[22:05] <mathiaz> nijaba: did you get a chance the talk with bdmurray about the Ubuntu Server Bug contact page ?
[22:05] <nijaba> mathiaz: yes I did
[22:05] <nijaba> mathiaz: zul an I are listed as contacts for bug triagger now
[22:06] <mathiaz> nijaba: great - so the purpose of the page is to list people that can be referred to online, via irc
[22:07] <mathiaz> nijaba: if there are any questions related to a package specific to the server are ?
[22:07] <nijaba> mathiaz: yes, when a triagger does not know what to do with a big, they contact us
[22:07] <nijaba> a bug even
[22:07] <mathiaz> nijaba: seems great - thanks nijaba and zul for taking up this role :)
[22:07] <mathiaz> I think that's all from last week meeting
[22:08] <mathiaz> [TOPIC] Bug milestoned for Hardy
[22:08] <MootBot> New Topic:  Bug milestoned for Hardy
[22:08] <mathiaz> As you may have noticed, we're approaching the release date of hardy
[22:09] <mathiaz> There is a list of bug milestone for hardy: https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+milestone/ubuntu-8.04
[22:10] <mathiaz> I went through the list and here are some bugs that are relevant to us:
[22:10] <mathiaz> bug 213482
[22:10] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 213482 in openldap2.3 "Dapper to Hardy upgrade fails with slapd" [High,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/213482
[22:11] <mathiaz> I think mvo is working on it
[22:11] <mvo> mathiaz: I just posted a possible fix
[22:11] <mvo> requires renaming libsasl2-modules to libsasl2-2-modules
[22:11] <mvo> that is a bit unfortunate as the rdepends needs transitioning too
[22:11] <mvo> there are not that many but its not ideal timing
[22:12] <mvo> the fix works for me (and my kvm auto-upgrade tester)
[22:12] <slangasek> I always knew that libsasl2 rename was a bad idea, I just didn't know why :)
[22:12] <mathiaz> mvo: should this be considered as a blocker for the release of hardy ?
[22:12] <nijaba> (yeah, mvo too uses kvm!)
[22:12] <mvo> definitely, slapd breaks for everybody on dapper->hardy upgrades, that is not acceptable :)
[22:13] <mvo> but the authorative answer can only come from a release-manager on this of course :)
[22:14] <mathiaz> well - I guess we'll have to figure which packages are impacted by the rename
[22:15] <mvo> there may be more ways to fix it too, but its good that we have a working solution
[22:16] <mvo> someone with good understand on sasl should probably have a additional look on it
[22:17] <mathiaz> Anyone wants to have a look into this sasl/ldap problem ?
[22:18] <sommer> mathiaz: I'm interested, but am far from a packaging guru :)
[22:18]  * sommer can definitely help test
[22:19] <mathiaz> sommer: right - testing will be welcomed once we have a fix
[22:19] <mathiaz> bon - if someone wants to take a shot at it, you have the bug number ;)
[22:19] <mathiaz> let's move on
[22:19] <mathiaz> bug 81242
[22:19] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 81242 in postfix "postfix-ldap is linked against gnuTLS" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/81242
[22:22] <mathiaz> So slangasek gave some pointers that needs more investigation
[22:23] <mathiaz> lamont: do you have any comments on this GnuTLS vs Postfix issue ?
[22:24] <mathiaz> let's move on to bug 155947
[22:24] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 155947 in libnss-ldap "ldap config  causes Ubuntu to hang at a reboot" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/155947
[22:24] <mathiaz> kirkland: did you fix it ?
[22:24] <kirkland> mathiaz: :-)  nope
[22:25] <nxvl> sorry for being late, i have had work problems
[22:25] <nijaba> mathiaz: I think this bug has difficulty to be reproduced...
[22:25] <kirkland> mathiaz: but there are two points to be made about it
[22:25] <kirkland> mathiaz: the first, is that we now have significant evidence that the failure path of this bug involves a system which has been upgraded from Feisty -> Gutsy -> Hardy
[22:26] <kirkland> mathiaz: in that users are talking about a pam_ldap.conf config file that ceased to exist after Gutsy
[22:26]  * kirkland points at dendrobates 
[22:26] <kirkland> mathiaz: the second point is that at least one user confirmed a suspicion...
[22:26] <kirkland> mathiaz: "hang on boot" in the title may not in fact be an accurate description of this bug
[22:26] <kirkland> mathiaz: "hang on login" when no ldap server present is probably a more accurate description
[22:27] <kirkland> mathiaz: at least one commenter recently agreed with this analysis
[22:27] <slangasek> that sounds to me like a separate bug than the one originally being reported
[22:27] <kirkland> mathiaz: in which case I think me, zul, jdstrand, dendrobates, and others have reproduced that behavior
[22:27] <mathiaz> kirkland: right - hang on login makes sense to me
[22:27] <jdstrand> kirkland: I seem to remember a comment on this happening in dapper, and not fixed in etch either
[22:27] <kirkland> mathiaz: i'd say hang on login is "functions as designed" in my opinion
[22:27] <slangasek> "hang on boot" is explainable in terms of the network not being up yet and nss_ldap being !clever
[22:28] <kirkland> in any case, i have never hung a system on booting trying to reproduce this, and i've tried at least a dozen installations of feisty -> hardy
[22:28] <jdstrand> kirkland: I also seem to remember (maybe in a duplicate) that people described the problem in the same way as the missing nvram bug, which *was* a hang on boot
[22:28] <kirkland> jdstrand: i did not go back to dapper/edgy
[22:28] <mathiaz> kirkland: re pam_ldap.conf - does it mean that upgrades are not handled properly ?
[22:29] <kirkland> mathiaz: that is possible
[22:29] <jdstrand> (the nvram bug was fixed btw)
[22:29] <kirkland> mathiaz: users are saying that they're "fixing" this by adding a "soft bind policy" to the ldap.conf
[22:30] <kirkland> mathiaz: if any fix for this bug is required, i think that may be it, for it, in the upgrading case
[22:30] <nijaba> kirkland: how would you explain it only happening in cas of an upgrade?
[22:31] <kirkland> nijaba: configuration that's not properly ported out of pam_ldap.conf ?
[22:31] <mathiaz> nijaba: we changed libnss-ldap to use one configuration file
[22:31]  * kirkland was not around for that change, yields to mathiaz & dendrobates 
[22:31] <mathiaz> nijaba: in feisty, there used to be to files to configure ldap info - one for pam and one for libnss
[22:31] <jdstrand> kirkland: not ported properly would indeed happen, as there wasn't any porting IIRC
[22:32] <jdstrand> kirkland: let me check, but I think it was just a debconf note saying 'you have to do this manually'
[22:32] <nijaba> and is softbind the default now on a new install?
[22:32] <mathiaz> nijaba: dendrobates changed it in gutsy, so that pam and libnss use one configuration file (/etc/ldap.conf)
[22:33] <mathiaz> jdstrand: I think he put some logic to migrate the files
[22:33] <mathiaz> jdstrand: at least if the two configuration files were the same
[22:33] <mathiaz> jdstrand: the issue is when libnssldap and pam_ldap aren't using the same configuration
[22:33] <jdstrand> I worked on that a bit myself, I am digging into it now
[22:34] <jdstrand> mathiaz: no migration-- ldap-auth-config/move-to-debconf
[22:35] <mathiaz> jdstrand: ok
[22:35] <jdstrand> "You MUST either reconfigure your settings with debconf, or manually migrate your settings into ldap.conf and verify your configuration before logging out."
[22:35] <kirkland> jdstrand: please link to that somehow as a comment in the bug?
[22:35] <kirkland> mathiaz: how should we proceed on this bug at this point, for Hardy?
[22:36]  * kirkland looks for guidance
[22:36] <mathiaz> that would explain why we see this problem only on an feisty -> gutsy upgrade
[22:36] <jdstrand> kirkland: it's in the ldap-auth-client source for debconf
[22:36] <jdstrand> configuration
[22:36] <mathiaz> well - the problem is that users don't read what debconf is telling them
[22:37] <jdstrand> that happens if either or both of /etc/libnss-ldap.conf and /etc/pam-ldap.conf exist on upgrade
[22:37] <dendrobates> initally we were going to disallow upgrade if the seperate files still existed, but it was decided that was a bad plan.
[22:39] <jdstrand> there is no sane way to migrate them as it is possible to actually use both on the same system (which was one of the driving forces behind dendrobates' merging to /etc/ldap.conf to begin, IIRC)
[22:39] <jdstrand> reason being it was too complicated and error prone
[22:40] <jdstrand> (but I'll let him speak to that if desired)
[22:40] <mathiaz> kirkland: I don't think we can really say we know what's going on in this bug
[22:40] <kirkland> mathiaz: okay, back at the grinding wheel again
[22:40] <mathiaz> kirkland: it's still not reproducable
[22:41] <kirkland> mathiaz: right
[22:41] <mathiaz> kirkland: the comments are also long
[22:41] <kirkland> mathiaz: should I focus more on dapper -> hardy upgrades, as that might be the more popular upgrade path in the future?
[22:41] <mathiaz> kirkland: oh yeah - definelty
[22:41] <mathiaz> kirkland: is there someone on the bug thread that is able to reproduce the problem now ?
[22:42] <kirkland> mathiaz: yeah, a lot of comments, though, are autoresponders from someone's annoying vacation responder :-S
[22:42] <mathiaz> kirkland: if not - we don't have any choice but to wait for someone that runs in the same problem
[22:42] <mathiaz> kirkland: and then we can start debugging it
[22:42] <kirkland> mathiaz: no one whose been willing to either (a) share their configs, or (b) meet me in IRC or on private email
[22:43] <mathiaz> kirkland: right - that happends often in long running bugs
[22:43] <kirkland> mathiaz: there is a single user who claims he's seen this on Hardy beta, when I asked for logs/configs, he couldn't get them to me/Launchpad
[22:43] <jdstrand> kirkland: how about an ssh root session into there system?
[22:43] <mathiaz> kirkland: some of the commenter are just adding a me too -while it's not the same problem
[22:43] <jdstrand> ;P
[22:43] <slangasek> kirkland: mark the bug as incomplete to force the issue?
[22:43] <jdstrand> s/there/their/
[22:43] <kirkland> slangasek: good plan, I'll go that route.
[22:44] <slangasek> (and be clear about what config files you need :)
[22:44] <kirkland> if this is a boot hang, i want /var/log/syslog, and some ldap/nss configs out of /etc
[22:44] <jdstrand> kirkland: someone mentioned etch being broken in the same way, might be worthwhile to look at Debian BTS
[22:44] <mathiaz> bug 189616
[22:44] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 189616 in dovecot "connection problems under load with hardy dovecot" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/189616
[22:44] <kirkland> jdstrand: okay
[22:45] <mathiaz> I've started to look into that bug - but I've found nothing up to now
[22:45] <nijaba> another: "yet to be reproduced" bug...
[22:46] <nijaba> mathiaz: could we convince elmo to give it another shot with a network sniffer on?
[22:46] <mathiaz> nijaba: hum - I don't think that he'll be happy with the network sniffer part...
[22:47] <nijaba> mathiaz: we are talking about ssl traces...
[22:47] <jdstrand> I don't think he'd be happy with the 'another shot' part
[22:47] <nxvl> i can sniff some packages on a test suite
[22:47] <nxvl> using virtual machines
[22:47] <nijaba> jdstrand: this, I can imagine, but I'd like to know if he can reproduce on hardy, not on a backported to dapper dovecot
[22:48] <mathiaz> nijaba: I've tried to use a backported to dapper dovecot version and wasn't able to reproduce the bug
[22:48] <nijaba> mathiaz: with simulated ssl imap client and all?
[22:49] <jdstrand> nijaba: absolutely, if it's not hardy test then it's not valid. I was just being 'realistic'
[22:49] <mathiaz> nijaba: with a real imap ssl client (a python script)
[22:49] <mathiaz> nijaba: I've run 60 concurent clients login/logging out
[22:49] <nijaba> mathiaz: good.... so --> incomplete?
[22:50] <mathiaz> nijaba: yeah - I'll talk to elmo to figure out what the configuration is
[22:50] <jdstrand> if --> incomplete, document *everything*
[22:50] <mathiaz> nijaba: there may be some weird setup somewhere.
[22:50] <nijaba> mathiaz: yep, that is one part we have not been good at on this bug.
[22:50] <nxvl> btw
[22:50] <nxvl> do we support backported packages?
[22:50] <nxvl> i think it can be broken by the dapper configuration
[22:51] <mathiaz> nxvl: depends how you define "we" and "support"
[22:51] <nijaba> nxvl: no, but elmo, if you do not know, is our IS guy
[22:51] <nxvl> "we" as in server team and "support" as in fix bugs that includes and old still supported release and new packages
[22:52] <nxvl> nijaba: yep i knew he was our sysadmin
[22:52] <dendrobates> nxvl: we have to try and fix this,
[22:52] <mathiaz> nxvl: generally no
[22:52] <dendrobates> or rather try and find out if it exists.
[22:52] <nxvl> dendrobates: so we do care about them
[22:52] <mathiaz> nxvl: in this particular case, we'd better try to investigate the issue a little bit
[22:52] <dendrobates> we care about this one.
[22:53] <owh> Just an observation, but so far both his and other virtual testing seems not to show the issue. Could it be related to his hardware?
[22:53] <nxvl> oh ok
[22:53] <nxvl> i will try to make a test suite later today or tomorrow and try to reproduce it
[22:53] <nxvl> configuring a postfix on dapper
[22:53] <nxvl> and then backport it
[22:53] <dendrobates> nxvl: because this could be a problem in production environments and becuase we absolutely trust the source.
[22:53] <nijaba> nxvl: in fact, we would hate seing this bug occuring on hardy in a live user config
[22:53] <mathiaz> owh: well - dovecot on dapper works correctly
[22:54] <mathiaz> owh: switch backported dovecot and it fails
[22:54] <dendrobates> the best case, is tn reproduce it in dapper using the backport, and then have it not exist in hardy
[22:55] <owh> mathiaz: But on the other side of that is that his own load testing and that done by you does not show the problem. Unless of course we're not simulating enough load.
[22:55] <mathiaz> owh: yes.
[22:55] <jdstrand> mathiaz: do you have his backported packages, 'dpkg -l' and dovecot configuration?
[22:55] <nxvl> i have just asked for more information about the bug to try to reproduce it
[22:55] <mathiaz> owh: the issue was seen on a production system
[22:56] <mathiaz> jdstrand: not yet - I was going to ask about it.
[22:56] <owh> mathiaz: We're (ubuntu-server) not really setup for testing load are we?
[22:56] <jdstrand> mathiaz: I'd be curious about the installed packages too (hence the dpkg -l)
[22:56] <owh> mathiaz: Yeah, not really a nice place to find bugs at the best of times.
[22:56] <owh> So, gather more information basically jdstrand.
[22:57] <jdstrand> yes, the bug is 'terse'
[22:57] <owh> s/./?/
[22:57] <mathiaz> owh: agreed - I'l talk with elmo about the setup
[22:57] <owh> That's a good word :)
[22:57] <mathiaz> That's was all for the bugs milestoned for the release.
[22:57] <mathiaz> [TOPIC] RC/Final testing of server isos
[22:57] <MootBot> New Topic:  RC/Final testing of server isos
[22:58] <nijaba> mathiaz: isn't bug #199144 milestoned?
[22:58] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 199144 in apache2 "Apache2 with mpm_worker times out with many concurrent requests" [Undecided,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/199144
[22:58] <mathiaz> nijaba: hum... true
[22:58] <mathiaz> nijaba: zul wasn't able to reproduce the bug
[22:59] <zul> about that one I wasnt able to reproduce the bug I ran the command a hundread times through the loop and still wasnt able to reproduce it
[22:59] <slangasek> also, a reminder that https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/hardy/+bugs aren't milestoned, but they are targets of opportunity... if you exhaust the milestoned bugs, or if anyone wants something that might be easier to tackle, that's a place to look
[22:59] <zul> it doesnt help what yaddayadda is in the bug report
[23:00] <nijaba> zul: at least the reporter responds to our queries
[23:00] <zul> yep
[23:00] <mathiaz> zul: could it be a hardware problem ?
[23:00] <mathiaz> zul: like faulty memory ?
[23:00] <zul> mathiaz: it could be faulty network card not sure
[23:01] <zul> there was a bug about in apache's bug tracker but that was from 3 years ago
[23:02] <owh> Uh, what about a PHP issue, that is, PHP is hogging all the children?
[23:03] <owh> I know the report says it isn't related, but I've seen it happen often on crap PHP code.
[23:03] <mathiaz> zul: is the root of the website a php script ?
[23:03] <nijaba> owh: I guess that is what zul meant when he said "it doesnt help what yaddayadda is in the bug report"
[23:04] <zul> mathiaz: he doesnt say
[23:04] <mathiaz> zul: you may wanna ask more information about the setup
[23:04] <nijaba> mathiaz: would be a good question to ask
[23:04] <slangasek> if the content he's testing against is PHP, that could very well be the cause, yes :)
[23:04] <owh> nijaba: That's possible I suppose.
[23:04] <zul> yep...
[23:05] <zul> I will do so as soon as I finish what Im working on :)
[23:05] <mathiaz> zul: great
[23:05] <mathiaz> so to go back to the topic
[23:06] <mathiaz> [TOPIC] RC/Final testing of server isos
[23:06] <MootBot> New Topic:  RC/Final testing of server isos
[23:06] <mathiaz> heno started to organize -server iso testing for RC and Final
[23:06] <owh> mathiaz: Sorry to intrude but do we need a time check?
[23:07] <mathiaz> @schedule
[23:07] <ubotu> Schedule for Etc/UTC: Current meeting: Server Team 10 Apr 20:00: Security Team | 11 Apr 12:00: MOTU | 16 Apr 21:00: Server Team | 23 Apr 21:00: Server Team | 30 Apr 21:00: Server Team
[23:08] <mathiaz> owh: well - there isn't any meeting now
[23:08] <owh> All good.
[23:08] <mathiaz> owh: but I think we're almost finished now
[23:08] <mathiaz> so tomorrow is the archive freeze until Final release
[23:08] <mathiaz> we'll have an RC of Hardy next week
[23:09] <mathiaz> and final in two weeks
[23:09] <zul> thats freaking scarey
[23:09] <sommer> mathiaz: are there going to be sparc iso's?
[23:09] <mathiaz> slangasek: ^^
[23:09] <nijaba> sommer: yes, but not officially maintained
[23:09] <slangasek> there will be sparc isos, on the same level with hppa/powerpc/ia64...
[23:10] <owh> zul: I was just thinking that :)
[23:10] <sommer> so should they be tested?
[23:10] <mathiaz> sommer: if you have the hardware, yes
[23:10] <sommer> cool
[23:10] <slangasek> sparc is being moved to "ports", it's not a Canonical-supported release anymore, including for server
[23:10] <slangasek> but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be tested
[23:11] <mathiaz> sommer: I don't know if the isotesting tracker will track sparc tests though
[23:11] <owh> mathiaz: So, are there any specific testing requirements for U-S for the .iso's ?
[23:11] <owh> I mean, booting and installing is fine, but that's hardly "testing" an .iso is it?
[23:12] <mathiaz> owh: owh https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/Cases/ServerInstall
[23:12] <mathiaz> owh: we have a list of 9 test cases
[23:12] <mathiaz> owh: the testing procude is outlined on the wiki page.
[23:12] <owh> mathiaz: I'm reading it as you type :)
[23:13] <mathiaz> owh: if you're interested in helping out, you should check out http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/
[23:13] <mathiaz> owh: it's the iso testing tracker
[23:13] <mathiaz> owh: when the release team has new isos to test, they will be published there
[23:13] <nijaba> owh: feel free to register yourself for  some tests ;)
[23:13] <owh> mathiaz: As I'm reading this, it's hardly beyond "tick" a box installation is it.
[23:14] <nijaba> owh: right
[23:14] <mathiaz> owh: a little bit more
[23:14] <owh> Are there any actual testing suites?
[23:14] <mathiaz> owh: there are some tests to be done depending on the installation profile
[23:14] <mathiaz> owh: for ex, make sure that postgres is running on reboot, etc...
[23:14] <owh> mathiaz: Yeah, check if you can create a database, but basically, trust the installer. That's pretty trivial IMO.
[23:14] <slangasek> owh: there are test cases to follow to ensure that the packages are installed correctly by default; the ISO testing isn't intended to be a replacement for the much longer period of beta testing that's been ongoing
[23:14] <nxvl> i will give a try to iso's when i work on the postfix bug
[23:14] <mathiaz> owh: everything is outlined in the test description
[23:14] <nxvl> using a VM
[23:15] <owh> slangasek: Cool. I just thought I'd ask.
[23:15] <mathiaz> owh: trivial is better than nothing ;)
[23:15] <owh> mathiaz: There is that.
[23:15]  * owh has to head off to breakfast.
[23:16] <sommer> whoa... thought he said beerfest for a second :-)
[23:16] <mathiaz> all right - that's all I wanted to mention for the meeting
[23:16] <mathiaz> [TOPIC] Any Other Business
[23:16] <MootBot> New Topic:  Any Other Business
[23:17] <mathiaz> slangasek: do you want to add something related to the incoming release ?
[23:17] <slangasek> I have one particular bug I'd like to request attention on :)
[23:17] <slangasek> bug #208419
[23:18] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 208419 in auth-client-config "Integrate samba password in PAM" [Undecided,In progress] https://launchpad.net/bugs/208419
[23:18] <jdstrand> the patch is forth-coming, I promise! :)
[23:18] <slangasek> this is a pretty late "feature", but it's pretty trivial to enable
[23:18]  * jdstrand wishes auth-client-config didn't start with 'a' now
[23:18] <slangasek> so I'd like the server team to comment on pulling libpam-smbpass into the samba-server seed by default
[23:20] <mathiaz> considering that the samba-server task is targeted at new comers, I think it'd make sense
[23:20]  * nijaba dreams of rediecting both to slapd once and for all...
[23:20]  * slangasek twitch
[23:21] <mathiaz> I think that most of the samba deployments in the server world don't require libpam-smbpass
[23:21] <slangasek> mathiaz: I think they don't /use/ it, but do you think that's what people /want/?
[23:21] <slangasek> do admins not want password sync by default between Unix and Samba
[23:21] <slangasek> ?
[23:21] <sommer> I wouldn't, by default
[23:22] <mathiaz> slangasek: hum... depends on the use case
[23:22] <mathiaz> slangasek: and the environment
[23:22]  * mathiaz ponders
[23:23] <mathiaz> IMO adding to the samba-server seed makes sense to me
[23:23] <mathiaz> considering the target audience
[23:24] <nijaba> dendrobates: any impact for likewise?
[23:26] <mathiaz> slangasek: so for me, it's a +1 for the samba-server seed modification
[23:28] <dendrobates> nijaba: no
[23:28] <nijaba> good, thanks
[23:28] <dendrobates> nijaba: wait, let me read the bug first.
[23:29] <dendrobates> nijaba: no, it does not apply.
[23:29] <dendrobates> slangasek: +1
[23:30] <slangasek> k, cheers :)
[23:31] <mathiaz> slangasek: I can take a look at modify the seeds
[23:31] <slangasek> cool, thanks
[23:32] <owh> Just an aside, how is the survey coming along?
[23:32] <nijaba> owh: their were a few security issues uncovered by kees in limesurvey.  we are waiting for upstream to fix those before it can be hosted on u.c
[23:33] <owh> Is there any way to speed that up - I mean, waiting for someone else to do something might take years :)
[23:33] <nijaba> owh: I am in touch with their lead dev almost daily
[23:34] <nijaba> owh: I he gave me good assurance it is going to be fixed soon
[23:34] <owh> nijaba: Is there a time line?
[23:34] <nijaba> owh: ASAP
[23:34] <owh> :)
[23:34] <owh> So, if that is sorted out, are we ready to roll?
[23:35] <nijaba> owh: I believe so, yes
[23:35] <owh> Do we need to do another #U-S - wide testing run?
[23:35] <owh> s/another/a/
[23:36] <nijaba> owh: not sure but if you feel like it, I can set one up easy enough
[23:36] <owh> What do others think about this?
[23:36] <owh> Just to be clear, I'm talking about a test-run sent to the ubuntu-server list.
[23:37]  * sommer thought the last one looked good
[23:37] <mathiaz> owh: a test-run ? Has anything changed ?
[23:37] <owh> mathiaz: At the moment, there have only been a select few who have run it.
[23:37] <nijaba> mathiaz: we fixed about ten "bugs" since last test
[23:37] <owh> I'm just wondering if it needed a wider audience before release.
[23:38] <nijaba> owh: I think it should be fine
[23:38]  * mathiaz agrees
[23:38] <owh> All good then :)
[23:38] <nijaba> owh: we did 4 iteration, with an average of 5 testers
[23:38] <mathiaz> [TOPIC] #
[23:38] <mathiaz> Agree on next meeting date and time.
[23:38] <MootBot> New Topic:  #
[23:38] <owh> Hmm, is there anything else I should be doing about the init.d scripts?
[23:38] <mathiaz> [TOPIC] Agree on next meeting date and time.
[23:38] <MootBot> New Topic:  Agree on next meeting date and time.
[23:39] <mathiaz> owh: nope - it's all good for now :)
[23:39] <mathiaz> Next week, same time, same place ?
[23:39] <owh> WFM
[23:39] <sommer> o./
[23:39] <nijaba> +0.9
[23:39]  * owh jumps for joy :)
[23:39]  * owh could do with more sleep as well...
[23:40] <owh> Just out of interest, what TZ's are people in? For me it's UTC+8
[23:40] <mathiaz> Great - so see ya all next week, here at the same time
[23:40] <nijaba> UTC+2 here
[23:40] <owh> So this meeting starts at 5am.
[23:40] <mathiaz> happy testing
[23:40] <mathiaz> thanks for attending :)
[23:40] <sommer> thanks mathiaz
[23:40] <nijaba> thanks mathiaz
[23:40] <sommer> owh: UTC -4
[23:41] <owh> thanks mathiaz for your tireless typing :)
[23:41] <jdstrand> thanks mathiaz!
[23:41] <owh> So, nijaba is really screwwed :|
[23:41] <nxvl> UTC -  here
[23:41] <mathiaz> owh: our TZ range from UTC+8 to UTC-9
[23:41] <nxvl> 5*
[23:41] <mathiaz> owh: hum - UTC-7 to be correct
[23:41] <sommer> er, I think I'm 5 as well :)
[23:41] <mathiaz> #endmeeting
[23:41] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 00:41.
[23:42] <sommer> later on all
[23:42] <nijaba> 'night
[23:42] <owh> mathiaz: So much for finding a better time then :)
[23:43] <mathiaz> owh: right - that's alway the problem when you have people all over the world
[23:43] <mathiaz> owh: the other solution is to rotate the meeting times
[23:43] <owh> I was just thinking that.
[23:43] <owh> It's not really fair to screw the same person(s) all the time.
[23:44] <owh> I feel for nijaba though.
[23:44] <nijaba> don't worry, we're not just at my usual bed time
[23:45] <owh> Of course it's possible that nijaba is a night owl :)
[23:45] <nijaba> owh: I am a bit of that...
[23:45] <mathiaz> nijaba: right - but you're not the only one in Europe
[23:45] <nijaba> mathiaz: soren is worse than me ;)
[23:45] <mathiaz> nijaba: soren is also a nigh owl
[23:45] <owh> What's soren at?
[23:45] <mathiaz> but we have other people in Europe
[23:45] <nijaba> soren= utc+2 as well
[23:46] <mathiaz> sommer: UTC+2 - he is usually in Denmark
[23:46] <mathiaz> owh: ^^
[23:46] <mathiaz> owh: and we also have people on the west coast
[23:46] <owh> I wonder if we run the risk of burning people out if we keep the same times, or do we make it worse by rotating?
[23:47] <mathiaz> owh: rotating == we need to keep track of the meeting time
[23:47] <owh> Lot's of late arrivals with "Sorry, forgot the time."
[23:47] <mathiaz> owh: and people are really bad it this
[23:47] <owh> s/it/at/?
[23:47] <mathiaz> owh: yeah - look at what DST generated...
[23:48] <mathiaz> owh: yeat it -> at
[23:49] <owh> I'm noticing that there is a lot of work behind the scenes. Many Ubuntu users would not be aware of any of it. Is there a benefit to holding an "open day"?
[23:49] <owh> A day in the life of a ubuntu-server developer kind of thing?
[23:50] <mathiaz> owh: like this ? https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/Prep
[23:50] <owh> I'm fixing bugs and attending meetings, but I'm only scratching the surface.
[23:50]  * owh looks.
[23:51] <owh> Is the intent to do that on IRC, or another platform?
[23:51] <mathiaz> owh: we always do it on IRC
[23:51] <owh> How is it publicised?
[23:52] <owh> Should we as a group offer some sessions?
[23:52] <mathiaz> owh: there a plan to offer some sessions
[23:52] <mathiaz> owh: I'll probably run a session on the server team
[23:52] <owh> mathiaz: Do you want to add it to the next meeting agenda?
[23:53]  * owh guesses there may be others.
[23:53] <mathiaz> owh: well - I've already done it once
[23:53] <owh> When?
[23:53] <mathiaz> owh: so I already have a skeleton for the IRC session
[23:53] <mathiaz> owh: during the DeveloperWeek in January
[23:53] <mathiaz> owh: or February
[23:54] <mathiaz> owh: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/devweek0802/SeverTeam
[23:54] <owh> I'm just thinking that single-person representation is subject to the "hit by a bus" scenario.
[23:55] <mathiaz> owh: well - the content of my last irc session is online
[23:55] <owh> Also, in sessions like that, if other team members were there they could help.
[23:56] <owh> mathiaz: I'm talking more about a "group-knowledge". It shouldn't always fall to the same person.
[23:56] <nxvl> mathiaz: february
[23:57] <nxvl> owh: if we all "talk" ( write ? ) it will be a complete disaster and there will we no order
[23:57] <nxvl> owh: so we have mathiaz that talk for us
[23:57] <nxvl> :D
[23:57]  * nxvl HUG mathiaz 
[23:57] <owh> mathiaz: This OpenDay seems more targeted at developers rather than users.
[23:58] <owh> nxvl: I understand that. I'm not trying to surplant mathiaz, I'm saying there are other team members who can assist.
[23:58] <nxvl> oh yes
[23:58] <owh> I suspect there are many end-users who would love to know more about Ubuntu's magical workings.
[23:58] <nxvl> i always take the questions
[23:58] <nxvl> :D
[23:59] <owh> I saw your paw in that log nxvl :)