mathiazslangasek: so for the libpam-smbpass seed change, I need to bzr branch ~ubuntu-core-dev/ubuntu-seeds/ubuntu.hardy/, modify samba-server, ci and push.00:10
mathiazslangasek: and then I also need to upload a new version of ubuntu-meta00:10
wasabiI'm curious. During a upgrade, a lot of the time, a daemon will be stopped, before popping up the configuration file thing. For instance, in this case... upgrading has stopped apache, and then presented me with a choice to deal with /etc/syslog.conf conflicts.00:22
TheMusocjwatson: I'm assuming the package on revu you pointed to is needed... While I'm not up on font packages, I can certainly have a look in terms of general packaging.00:22
wasabiDoes anybody think it should be possible, and preferable, to ask these questions before stopping a service in some fashion?00:22
slangasekpreferable, sure, but there's no good way to predict which packages are going to generate conffile prompts00:23
wasabiI personally would prefer upgrades to keep services stopped and in a non functional state for a very short time.00:23
wasabiWhy doesn't the service restart happen near the end of the process?00:23
wasabiFor instance, postinst.00:23
slangasekfundamentally, to keep the package prerm script as simple as possible00:23
TheMusoOh, ttf-ubuntu-title is already in the archive.00:24
Riddellcjwatson: I found a better fix for the edit dialogue sizing issue, setting word wrap on text labels seems to change their properties somewhat so I set it to have a minimum sizehint policy rather than the dialogue00:25
cjwatsonTheMuso: it's not absolutely critical, but we've been working with the (new) upstream to get everything merged and it would be nice to have the final result in hardy; a not-installed-by-default font should be fairly non-risky00:26
cjwatsonRiddell: have you tried it with various languages?00:26
TheMusocjwatson: Right, it looks like the version in the archive and the version in revu are the same, in terms of version number, minus a few 0s.00:26
cjwatsonI suspect they're actually very different inside00:27
Riddellcjwatson: the messagebox in question_dialog has a question icon already, that's set by QMessageBox.Question00:27
cjwatsonthe version number is bizarre, but it does collapse to 2.0 rather than 0.200:27
cjwatsonRiddell: ah, ok00:27
Riddellcjwatson: yes that Next text is wrong, how do I find out what the debconf translation is called?00:27
cjwatsonRiddell: it's the ubiquity/imported/go-forward template00:28
cjwatson(likewise go-back, etc.; see translate_widgets in gtk_ui.py)00:28
cjwatsonRiddell: in fact, if you just do self.get_string('next') that should do it00:29
cjwatsonRiddell: so your usual translation code ought to take care of it if you just leave it alone, unless you've also set that button to read something else00:29
TheMusocjwatson: Right I understand what you're getting at, I'll have a look at that today.00:30
* TheMuso gets breakfast.00:30
xtknightis msgid usually the english US version of something?00:45
xtknighti don't see a po/en US00:45
slangasekthat's customary, yes, in part because historically using English msgids meant you were assured the source string was ascii00:47
slangasekand therefore upwards-compatible with any other national encodings00:47
mathiazslangasek: are you sure a new version of ubuntu-meta needs to be uploaded to take into account the samba-server task change ?00:47
slangasekmathiaz: hmm, now that you ask the question, no :)00:47
xtknightso fixing an english problem means changing all the po/ files00:47
xtknighthow convenient lol.00:47
mathiazslangasek: I've built a new version of ubuntu-meta, and there isn't change between .99 and .10000:47
slangasekxtknight: preferably done with a global find-and-replace, yes :)00:48
slangasekmathiaz: then I guess you don't need to upload it \o/ :)00:48
mathiazslangasek: ok - but I think a new version of tasksel should be uploaded00:48
slangasekpossibly correct00:48
Riddellcjwatson: the edit dialogue doesn't seem to be tranlated at all, a job for tomorrow i think along with the buttons00:56
cjwatsonRiddell: are you using bzr?01:08
cjwatsonRiddell: 'cos that was a long-standing bug up to 1.8.2, but I fixed it in bzr01:08
cjwatsonmathiaz: I'll do tasksel now01:09
Riddellcjwatson: I'm not, I'll try that01:09
cjwatsonmathiaz: tasksel only needs to be uploaded when *structural* changes are made to the seeds. Simply adding a package to a seed never requires a tasksel upload.01:14
mathiazcjwatson: right - that's what I was thinking.01:14
cjwatsonwhen you said "but I think a new version of tasksel should be uploaded"? :-)01:15
mathiazcjwatson: so I don't need to upload any new package ?01:15
cjwatsonno, you do not01:15
cjwatsonsamba-server doesn't have an associated metapackage; Launchpad will update Task fields by itself, which is all you need01:15
mathiazcjwatson: oh... awesome :)01:15
emgenthi mathiaz :)01:16
mathiazcjwatson: I've just pushed my commit to the ubuntu-core-dev branch and all the rest is taken care automatically01:16
mathiazhi emgent01:16
cjwatsonmathiaz: yep01:17
cjwatsonuploaded tasksel anyway for mythbuntu's benefit01:17
* slangasek waves02:15
pittiRiddell: bcm freeze> can you please create a bug report about that? It's probaly not something I can fix in jockey itself, but we can at least investigate it02:17
emgentcody-somerville: ping02:17
emgenthi pitti02:17
pittiLaserJock: looking at -proposed02:18
cody-somervilleemgent, pong02:18
pitti LaserJock: I don't see flashplugin in -proposed02:23
LaserJockpitti: seb128 got if for me02:32
LaserJockpitti: however, the verification is done so can we move it to -updates?02:33
pittiLaserJock: oh, is it? great, yes, I can do that; what was the bug#?02:33
LaserJockpitti: bug #17389002:34
ubotuLaunchpad bug 173890 in flashplugin-nonfree "flashplugin-nonfree fails to install due to md5sum mismatch" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/17389002:34
LaserJocknext time I'm going to use a new bug, that one is a mess02:34
pittiapparently you did not specify a bug# in the changelo?02:34
pittithat's baad :/02:34
pittiand my clever SRU script doesn't see it that way :)02:34
LaserJockwell, with as messy as it is I didn't want it02:34
LaserJockpitti: ah, sorry about that02:35
pittiLaserJock: btw, is someone looking at the previous releases?02:35
LaserJocknot yet02:35
pittiwe can probably stop caring about edgy, but dapper/feisty would be nice02:35
LaserJockI'll try to rope somebody into it02:35
LaserJockit's a trivial thing02:35
LaserJockawesome, thank you02:37
cody-somervillepitti, You approved the Abiword FFe, correct?02:37
pittithanks belong to you :)02:37
pitticody-somerville: no, I said that it's worth considering if there is a tested package for it02:37
pittibut it's getting really tight02:37
pittihow does the package in the PPA perform?02:38
pittiany good/back feedback about it?02:38
pitti(sorry, I'm pretty much out of the loop at the conf here)02:38
cody-somervilleI've heard good things but I haven't tested it myself yet.02:39
pittiI just wonder about why nobody seemed to care/notice for 5 months, and suddenly it's generating so much fuss02:39
LaserJockpitti: 5 months?02:40
LaserJock2.6 was just released a couple weeks ago02:40
pittiI mean tracking 2.5 in hardy, etc.02:41
pittiif it's really that fresh, it's quite natural that we didn't get it?02:41
LaserJockof course it's our fault for not tracking all our upstreams :-)02:42
pittiLaserJock: sorry, I put that badly: I meant, I was interested why it suddenly created so much fuss: whether we ignored 2.6 for so long, or because it is actually so fresh02:43
LaserJockit was actually fresh02:43
cody-somervilleI think lazyness02:43
cody-somervilleThe split up the source packages in the next release from whats in the archive now02:44
LaserJockcody-somerville: huh?02:44
cody-somervilleLaserJock, They split up the source package02:44
cody-somervilleAnd change how it is packaged all about02:44
LaserJockpitti: upstream also had a blog post on Planet Gnome titled "Ubuntu Sclerosis" which has something to do with it as well02:45
LaserJocksqueaky wheel and all that02:45
LaserJockbut 2.4 is now long longer maintained, is 2 years old02:46
LaserJockand 2.6 fixes something like 7 or so LP bugs and has lots of goodies02:46
slangasekyes, apparently asking for a description of the upstream changes in this new version that no one in Ubuntu has seen prior to 2 weeks from the RC is "OMG bureaucracy"02:46
cody-somervilleI'm pretty sure the changes are listed in the description02:47
LaserJockslangasek: yeah, I had a talk with #abiword about that02:47
LaserJockcody-somerville: they don't maintain a changelog, which is also helpful :-)02:47
cody-somervilleslangasek, I'm going to upload some experimental changes for the xubuntu seeds in regards to language packages, fyi.02:48
LaserJockslangasek: I especially like that 2.6 didn't even exist when you made your first comment02:48
LaserJockslangasek: I'm glad we have mind-reading release managers ;-)02:49
keescookI hate the ff3 type-ahead matching so much.  isn't there anything to be done to make it ONLY search in urls?  geeh02:49
slangasekcody-somerville: feel free, just be sure to make them un-experimental by the beginning of next week :-)02:49
StevenKpitti: Could I bug you to do a sync while you're around?02:50
* cody-somerville needs several syncs done. :)02:50
pittiStevenK: well, try :)02:50
pittikeescook: really? I think it's sooo great02:51
StevenKpitti: Bug #214434 . Puuhhhhlease :-)02:51
ubotuLaunchpad bug 214434 in sapwood "Please sync sapwood 3.0.0.debian.1-2  (universe) from Debian unstable (main)" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/21443402:51
keescookpitti: I'm sure it's good for many people, but I don't type page titles into my urlbar.  I type URLs, so I want it to match URLs.  :P02:52
* pitti turns the sync crank02:53
keescookand there doesn't seem to be any config options for it.  :(02:54
StevenKkeescook: And it tries to match the URL against page titles?02:54
keescookStevenK: if I type "f", I have "facebook.com" listed first, and "mattroloff.com" listed second even though clearly it does not start with an "f".02:55
keescookI want completion, not searching, basically.02:56
pitticody-somerville: if you need an urgent sync, toss it to me02:56
LaserJockI was gonna say, urls work fine here02:56
LaserJockbut yeah, searching, not completion02:56
StevenKmattroloff.com starts with a silent f. So silent it isn't written. :-P02:56
cody-somervillebug #214306 is important and bug #214302 would be nice02:58
ubotuLaunchpad bug 214306 in ristretto "Sync ristretto 0.18-1 from debian unstable (main)" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/21430602:58
ubotuLaunchpad bug 214302 in xfce4-mpc-plugin "Sync xfce4-mpc-plugin 0.3.3-1 from debian unstable (main)." [Wishlist,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/21430202:58
StevenKkeescook: Maybe you have to set the config option in that cesspool of files firefox calls a configuration system.02:59
keescookStevenK: according to upstream bug reports, there is no such option.  :(03:00
StevenKThose nasty people03:00
cody-somervilleAlso, if a core-dev could take care of https://code.edge.launchpad.net/~xubuntu-dev/ubuntu-seeds/xubuntu.hardy/+merge/202 :)03:00
StevenKAre those the experimental changes you warned slangasek about?03:01
StevenKJust curious03:01
cody-somervilleThe code browser doesn't show the blue lines for some reason, weird.03:03
emgentit`s 4.04 AM i go to sleep. night people :)03:04
* cody-somerville waves.03:04
Hobbseecody-somerville: You sent me a contentless ping.  This is a contentless pong.  Please provide a bit of information about what you want and I will respond when I am around.03:05
cody-somervilleHobbsee, I'm good now, thanks anyhow ;]03:05
StevenKcody-somerville: You do know that's a script that replies?03:06
cody-somervilleStevenK, I'm pretty sure she uses @msg or w/e it is called03:07
pitticody-somerville: too bad that xfce.mk will go away; it made things soo nice and consistent03:10
* Hobbsee looks in03:10
* Hobbsee sends pitti to bed.03:10
pitticody-somerville: 214302 needs ack from ~ubuntu-release03:10
pittisince it's a new upstream version03:10
keescookHobbsee: it's only 9pm for him.  ;)03:11
pittiHobbsee: huh? it's ten past nine03:11
cody-somervillepitti, I think I'm a delegate or w/e it is called :S03:11
cody-somervilleand it is mostly a bugfix release anyhow03:11
pitticody-somerville: ah, that makes sense03:11
pitticody-somerville: zzzzynced03:15
* cody-somerville hugs pitti.03:15
* pitti hugs cody back03:15
Hobbseecjwatson: universe is stricter in a lot of cases, yes.  I've also found this rather backwards.  However, the degree of clue, thoughtfulness, and general responsibility for core-dev and motu are very different.  :(03:15
cody-somervilleAlso, I was wondering, why isn't it possible to force syncs where upstream has a different original tarball?03:15
Hobbseecjwatson: it's one of the reasons i'm quite inactive.03:16
pitticody-somerville: because we can't replace files in the archive, only add new ones and obsolete older ones03:16
pitticody-somerville: otherwise you'd potentially modify sources in stable releases, etc.03:16
Hobbseecody-somerville: the fact that we have to use strictness to make motu's actually think about what we're doing says a lot about the types of people we're giving upload rights to, and that that probably neesd a rethink.03:17
cody-somervillepitti, As for xfce.mk, I'm hoping I can get debian to adopt it :)03:18
cody-somervilleIn the mean time, best to reduce delta due to lack of Xubuntu manpower.03:18
cody-somervilleStevenK, Were you going to do that merge or were you just curious?03:19
HobbseeLaserJock: at some point, relevant, clueful people, would do well to sit down and hash this all out, before MOTU falls to the ground.  What are your thoughts on using the infrastructure from UDS to do so?03:19
StevenKcody-somerville: The latter.03:19
LaserJockHobbsee: I don't much like UDSs for this sort of thing unless theres good pre- and post-UDS work03:20
LaserJockHobbsee: james_w and I had some thoughts in -motu03:20
* cody-somerville needs a core dev to do merge #202 on lp :)03:20
Hobbseekeescook: oh, timezone screwage again.  I thought it was 2am or something.03:21
LaserJockHobbsee: also I think he sent an email to ubuntu-bugsquad about patch/debdiff handling03:21
HobbseeLaserJock: neither, but i'm meaning the infrastructure - ie, the VOIP and possibly gobby.03:22
LaserJockgobby is useful, VOIP is not03:22
HobbseeLaserJock: then again, if the powers that be decide that there is no problem, then the issue is moot.03:22
Hobbseereal time chat tends to help.03:22
cody-somervilleUbuntustudio reports great success with VOIP03:22
cody-somerville_MMA_, has gotten me into it ;]03:23
_MMA_Just for the team anyway.03:23
LaserJockthe VOIP at UDSs is really nasty03:23
LaserJockyou can't hear what half the people are saying, people often switch rooms, etc.03:23
HobbseeLaserJock: i'm assuming it would be after it.  Or before it.03:23
HobbseeLaserJock: everyone on headsets, around the world.03:23
LaserJockI personally don't like any type of voice communication, but I might be alone in that03:24
* cody-somerville would be up for trying atleast. :)03:24
HobbseeLaserJock: heh.03:24
HobbseeLaserJock: you're not alone - i hate it too - voice is too high.  But i know it tends to work better.03:24
* LaserJock works in lab all day with no windows, voices scare me :-)03:25
_MMA_cody-somerville: You'll see UDS VOIP nastiness soon enough. ;) Not as good as Skype unfortunately.03:25
Hobbseeeach time it seems to get better.  So i'll live in hope :P03:27
LaserJocklike I said in -motu earlier, I think we need to 1) list our developer bug processes 2) figure out what the developer, contributor, and triager should do in each case 3) design processes and policies correspondingly03:27
LaserJock1) can be pre-UDS 2) at UDS and 3) post-UDS03:28
* _MMA_ remembers Hobbsee in Boston. Wasn't too bad.03:28
HobbseeLaserJock: first, i think  you need to ascertain if people actually care - particularly those in authority.03:28
LaserJockHobbsee: I don't actually03:29
HobbseeLaserJock: no?03:29
LaserJocknot particularly03:29
LaserJockMOTU decide there policies for the most part03:29
HobbseeLaserJock: if you've got no traction with those in authority, then you can either fight to get it fixed with them, or raise people up from underneath.  You have to see if thsoe people care, too.03:30
LaserJockCore devs, well good ideas are usually pretty straightfoward there03:30
Hobbseecore dev, sure.  I believe our problem is with MOTU, is it not?03:30
LaserJocknot sure03:30
LaserJockbut honestly there isn't much "authority" per se03:30
LaserJockwe just do what we decided to do, not much to it03:30
Hobbseeif you attempt to raise people up, and stir them up into some form of change, you can pay a pretty high personal price for that - so people think you're overreacting, all the time, for eg.03:31
LaserJockI'm more concerned with getting enough developers involved03:31
Hobbseethere's the MC.03:31
LaserJockthe MC isn't really all that relavent here03:31
Hobbseeafaik, they're still the governing body - they have no pwoer, but you can't actually bypass them for new processes either.03:31
LaserJockthe MC doesn't determine MOTU Policy03:31
Hobbseei thougth they could still veto it?03:31
LaserJockmmm, doubtful03:32
LaserJockand even if they could I doubt they would03:32
HobbseeLaserJock: i hope you suceed where i haven't, and don't crash and burn.03:32
LaserJockwell, there's a difference though, honestly03:32
LaserJockit's not about what *I'm* doing, it's about what MOTU (and developers in general) is doing03:32
Hobbsee12:32 autofocus_new_items = OFF03:33
Hobbseetrue.  But it's not anarchy.  That's what they keep telling me, anyway.03:33
LaserJockthat's why we have MOTU meetings, the TB, etc.03:33
LaserJockwhat I'm saying is that we are not dependent on the MC here03:34
Hobbseeso policy can change according to the whims of whoever turns up.  Yeah :(03:34
LaserJockthey are there to make sure we "fight fair" more or less and to give useful suggestions03:34
LaserJockyes, so people should show up, right? :-)03:34
HobbseeThe fact that they don't is a sign that it may not be the most effective place for policy decisions.  Of course, that's a catch 2203:35
Hobbseepeople whine on mailing lists that it should have been at a MOTU meeting, yet don't show up to the meeting.03:35
LaserJockthat's why I'm saying to have pre-UDS,UDS, and post-UDS involvement03:35
* Hobbsee nods03:35
HobbseeLaserJock: so, your thoughts for hwo to proceed are to discuss and vote on things at MOTU meetings, and hope that no one tells you that there is no problem?03:36
LaserJockpeople can tell me there is no problem all they want03:36
LaserJockif enough people feel otherwise it doesn't matter03:37
LaserJockin generally, for obvious stuff we can just do it and if people complain figure it out03:37
Hobbseefeel otherwise and turn up to do something, yeah.03:37
LaserJockfor stuff that needs voting or more discussion, use MOTU Meeting03:37
LaserJockand if there's a conflict we can't resolve as MC/TB for guidance03:38
HobbseeLaserJock: i'm interested in solving the core problems.  Patching the outside bits, while temporarily helpful, is not the long turn solution, and tends to just lead to more beuocracy, and procedures changing each time.03:38
Hobbseeof course, it's hard to do tha twhen at least 2 members of the MC tell me that there *is* no problem.03:39
LaserJockwe need a comprehensive look at this stuff03:39
LaserJockwell, why should that stop you?03:39
Hobbseeso presumably it's better to talk to those who are enlightened on the problem, assuming there is one, and i'm not mad,03:39
Hobbseeand get them to show up and deal with it.03:40
LaserJockI often come across problems I see that in reality are not a big deal03:40
Hobbseewell, i migth attribute it to that too, but the fact that cjwatson and slangasek and such are complaining about the end results of the problem suggest that i'm really not mad, and the problem does exist.03:40
LaserJockyou gotta be realistic, open to the other side, but if you think you have a good basis for what you're thinking go for it03:40
Hobbseeand presumably that it's big enough it needs to actually be sorted out, rather than swept under the carpet.03:41
HobbseeLaserJock: hwo many people do you think will speak, if members of the perceived "authority" shoot the idea down?03:41
LaserJockfirst, you're making this a "us and them" deal03:42
LaserJockand second, you're assuming "authority" can shoot us down03:42
HobbseeLaserJock: as soon as they say "$person is overreacting", the discussion dies, and no one looks at what person actually said.03:42
LaserJockumm, not really03:42
LaserJockI've seen more often than not encouragement from the MC to get things done03:42
Hobbseeat least, the mailing list posts tend to suggest that.03:42
Hobbseeglobally, yes.03:42
LaserJockI've talked to I think all members of the MC and beyond about issues I'm seeing03:43
LaserJockand pretty much everybody agrees that there are issues we should look at03:43
Hobbseecertainly, the autority can't shoot things down - but by saying "i don't think this is a problem", then most people will be inclined to believe them.03:43
Hobbseeheh, you got all of the MC to agree to that?  wow03:43
LaserJocknot if those people also see the issue03:43
HobbseeLaserJock: right, so all the issues stuff needs to come from you and others, then.03:45
Hobbseethat works.03:45
LaserJockso, in general, keep it open, keep it civil, and if it's something that needs to be done it will get done03:45
Hobbseei fail to see hwo my last mailing list post wasn't, and i still got called as overreacting.03:46
Hobbseebut, whatever.03:46
Hobbseeso i clearly need to go thru you guys, to avoid that.03:46
LaserJockwell, to be brutally honest, I think you're tending to exagerate stuff a bit to make sure it's getting attention03:47
LaserJockthere are clearly issues, but the sky is not falling and MOTU will survive03:47
LaserJockdespite what I sometimes think myself03:47
Hobbseei'd hope MOTU will survive.03:47
Hobbseeand i think that it will survive in some form.03:48
HobbseeBut i don't think the form will be overly useful, as it'll be filled with beuarocracy, and it will be very hard to get things done.03:48
LaserJocknobody likes beuarocracy03:48
LaserJockwe just don't know always how to fix it03:49
Hobbseewhether that actually translates to that the sky has fallen, if MOTU can't effectively get stuff done...that's an exercise for the reader.03:49
LaserJockI worry far more about apathy than I do authority03:50
Hobbseei find that due to the apathy, the majority of the decisions get left to the authority.03:50
HobbseeWhich is usually bad and wrong, but it happens.03:51
LaserJockthough authority is often a nice thing to have, it does tend to create "us and them" scenarios that aren't all that good for a community like ours03:51
LaserJockso, we have no one to blame but ourselves, no?03:52
LaserJockif our apathy leads down a road we'd rather not go03:52
LaserJockbut all is not lost certainly :-)03:53
Hobbseealthough i don't think the blame game is helpful03:53
Hobbseewell, all is lost if we keep not caring.03:53
Hobbseeor at least, close to lost03:53
LaserJockno, but what it *does* mean is that we are also the solution, right?03:53
Hobbseeyou guys are the solution, sure.03:54
LaserJockand you, if you like03:54
TheMusoHobbsee: Yes, you too if you want to be.03:56
cody-somervilleThis _feels_ like a scene out of the movie when the bad guys corner the good guy and try to convince the good guy to join them, ;]03:57
TheMusoYeah but there is no evil intent here.03:58
Hobbseecody-somerville: heh03:58
LaserJock"Come to the dark side Sarah"03:58
LaserJockperhaps we need some sort of MOTU or Developer CoC03:59
LaserJocka bit more technical like03:59
Hobbsee"you shall employ thought before uploading"?04:00
LaserJocksomething like that04:00
LaserJockthough perhaps better phrasing ;-)04:00
TheMusohaha yeah.04:00
StevenK"You shall not peddle crack at your fellow developers"04:00
* StevenK looks at jtisme 04:01
* StevenK looks at jdong 04:01
LaserJockonce upon a time I started writing a MOTU Manifesto, perhaps I should finish that04:02
cody-somervilleI think a first good step would be for us to write down the perceived problems in a wiki problem with solid examples.04:04
* cody-somerville is having a hard time identifying what exactly the issue is. :/04:04
LaserJockyikes, that can get a bit messy04:05
LaserJock"problems" are generally general :-)04:05
LaserJockit's hard to pull out specifics a lot of the time, especially if it's social issues04:05
LaserJockcody-somerville: but I do agree we need to probably do some of that04:06
cody-somervilleMaybe we need to employ CPS?04:06
LaserJockI just don't think a "Everything that's wrong with MOTU" wiki page is going to end well ;-)04:06
LaserJockI think we can get a long ways by not asking "what are we doing wrong" but rather "how do we want to work" and "what are we doing right?"04:07
cody-somervilleI don't necessarily disagree with you.04:07
LaserJockI'm just saying that because I think I've been involved in at least like 2 or 3 "what's wrong with MOTU" wiki pages ;-)04:09
LaserJockand by the time your done hashing out the problems you don't have any energy for the solution and you feel depressed :-)04:09
LaserJockat least that's how it is for me04:09
cody-somervilleI think maybe the problem is the lack of application of creative problem solving skills (TM).04:10
cody-somervilleThere was a book I started reading once that described a number of CPS techniques that I think would be helpful to us.04:10
cody-somervilleI'll make a note to stop at the library for it.04:10
LaserJockI think the two top social issues are apathy and distrust04:10
cody-somervilleSo the objective is absolving that apathy and distrust?04:11
LaserJockwhich leads to sloppiness and beaurocracy04:11
* cody-somerville nods.04:11
LaserJockwell, somewhat04:12
cody-somervilleSo, maybe some team building exercises would be helpful?04:12
LaserJockwe certainly don't want technical things like workflows, processes, policies to make things worse04:12
cody-somervilleBut how do you plan to measure success?04:12
LaserJockbut rather better04:12
LaserJockwell, in some ways it's a bit more fundamental, IMO04:13
LaserJockhow can you do a team building exercise when 3/4 of the team doesn't show up?04:13
cody-somervilleSo the problem is getting people to show up?04:14
LaserJockI tried to get some MOTU Hug Days going so we could do a last minute team QA blitz and we got 0 responses to the -motu email04:14
LaserJockas far as people signing up, nixternal did reply with some suggestions04:15
* cody-somerville wonders why he didn't reply :/04:16
LaserJockyou were probably too busy04:16
LaserJockI kinda feel like we have too much going on04:17
LaserJockwe have a bazillon teams and "programs", etc.04:17
* cody-somerville is pretty heavily loaded with work + leading Xubuntu.04:17
* TheMuso would have likely been one who replied to that, if he was still only a community member.04:18
LaserJockright, lots of reasons not to04:19
LaserJockso my thinking is perhaps, using a sports phrase, we need to get back to fundamentals04:19
LaserJocklook at what *has* to be done and work out good workflows/policies/processes for them04:20
LaserJockin particular looking at developers04:20
LaserJocklook at things that are working and things that aren't04:21
LaserJockif they aren't then we can drop them until we can make them work04:21
cody-somervilleWhat do you feel currently isn't working?04:21
LaserJocksponsorship to some degree04:22
LaserJockand the "red tape" part is a lot of it04:22
LaserJockdevelopers don't want to be paper pushers, right?04:23
LaserJockthey want to work on fun stuff04:23
TheMusoI've never had a problem having to do red tape, as it keeps me on my toes, thinking about why I am doing what I'm doing.04:23
TheMusoAnd it makes me look more carefully at anything I sponsor, and makes me think about how careful I must be with my own work.04:24
LaserJockI agree04:24
TheMusoFor me, anything to keep me aware of how careful we as developers need to be is a good thing.04:24
LaserJockbut there's a line04:24
LaserJockwe don't want more than necessary04:24
TheMusoYes I agree, but we need to keep all developers, whether MOTU or not, to be thinking about just what they are doing, and what damage could result as a result.04:25
LaserJockfor sure04:25
LaserJockbut it's kinda like those popup dialog boxes04:25
cody-somervilleI don't find that my work is inhibited by the current processes.04:25
LaserJockpeople can either give up or just click through04:25
LaserJockcody-somerville: you were just complaining about seed changes ;-)04:26
cody-somervilleWell, that'll be changed soon04:26
cody-somervilleI do need someone to still do that merge for me04:26
* TheMuso will.04:27
cody-somervilleThanks TheMuso :)04:28
bryceLaserJock: is the issue more about not having enough contributors, or about contributions not being high enough quality?04:29
LaserJockwell, both04:30
LaserJockmy more immediate concern is consistency04:31
LaserJockI need to know that the developers around me are working to the same standards and are being held to the same standards04:32
LaserJockI need to know that the bug triagers are going to do things the way I expect them to04:32
LaserJockI need to know that what I do matters04:33
LaserJockI'm guessing those are key elements04:33
* cody-somerville nods.04:33
LaserJockso I think the problem is in a lot of ways, not about the specific processes (they by-and-large work well) but that we're all on the same page04:34
TheMusocody-somerville: I have a text conflict in supported...04:34
LaserJockone thing I've thought about doing is having cheatsheets04:34
brycewell, it's good that you don't feel lack of contributors is a big issue - you have some muscle (maybe not as much as you want), but it needs better training to be effective04:34
LaserJocka developer cheatsheet, a triager cheatsheet, etc.04:34
LaserJockwhere you can see at a glance what you need to do04:35
* bryce nods04:35
LaserJockbecause frankly I spend more time looking up the current wiki page standards than I do actually doing the work04:35
bryceI have had similar problems with both X bug reporting and triaging, so have been adopting the documentation/training approach, which seems to have had some good results so far04:35
cody-somervilleTheMuso, It won't merge cleanly?04:36
LaserJockbryce: yeah, we've done quite a bit of that and it's helped04:36
bryceI put some triager docs and bug reporter docs at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/X, and refer people to those regularly.  I notice people have started catching on04:36
LaserJockbut I think we're maybe trying to bite of more than we can chew a lot of times04:36
LaserJockUniverse especially is tricky04:36
TheMusocody-somerville: No. I did a bzr pull from the core-dev tree and then merged yours, and there is a conflict.04:36
LaserJockbecause of the shear numbers of packages and upstreams04:37
bryceI'm trying to turn "When reporting an X bug, *always* attach your Xorg.0.log" into an adage that everyone knows without thinking.  ;-)  That alone would save me *soo* much time.04:37
cody-somervilleTheMuso, I imagine it has to do with emacs?04:37
bryceLaserJock: yeah I got the impression from the discussion scrollback that "needs to be more fun" and "needs to be less overwhelming" are also issues04:37
TheMusocody-somerville: Yes.04:37
LaserJockbryce: I agree completely04:38
cody-somervilleTheMuso, One moment please.04:38
TheMusocody-somerville: Sure.04:38
bryceyeah, I can sympathize with the overwelming amounts of work - I think it's true for us all.  Certainly with X alone there seems to be no end of bugs.  But I look at firefox or openoffice and things don't seem quite so bad.  ;-)04:39
LaserJockbryce: there are something around 200 pages on the wiki for development04:39
LaserJockbetween MOTU and UbuntuDevelopment related pages04:40
wasabithe launchpad integration for bug reporting should make all of that automatic.04:40
brycethere are a lot of helpful books and so for dealing with overwhelming workloads, that generally recommend some combination of prioritizing, limiting scope of commitments/responsibilities, etc.04:41
LaserJockbryce: that's basically what I'm getting at04:41
wasabiI'd like to be able to go to the control panel area, and hit Report a Bug or something... and have it automatically attach all files that might even be remotely relevent.04:41
bryceLaserJock: information overload?04:41
LaserJockfigure out what we *have* to do, prioritize it, and then have fun working on it04:41
brycewasabi: I would love to see that too04:41
temugenwasabi: I was JUST thinking the same thing!04:42
bryceLaserJock: for volunteer projects especially, morale and fun are the most precious resource04:42
LaserJockone thing I think we can do is to develop more pushing of certain things to Debian04:42
LaserJocklike the low priority stuff04:42
wasabiWell, the crash report tool does most of it. Just need a way to file arbitrary bugs using it... and then include the X config/log.04:42
temugenI think a bug reporting feature should be added to every distro; it will collect relevant info based on the error you're reporting04:42
wasabiAnd maybe dmesg output, the last hours logs, except security stuff.04:42
bryceLaserJock: a good plan, lots of people, useful docs, and plenty of morale can do just about anything ;-)04:42
wasabiapport perhaps can be extended to accomplish it.04:43
wasabiHeck, I'd like to be able to hit Report a Bug in a running application, and have a core dump attached, even if it's not crashed.04:43
LaserJockminimizing divergence from Debian I think is also a key for MOTU04:43
wasabiOh hey, apport is launched for Report a Problem now. Didn't know that.04:44
LaserJockthe more we have Debian maintain stuff the better off it is for both Debian and Ubuntu04:44
cody-somervilleHas anyone else experienced bug #214898? lol04:44
ubotuLaunchpad bug 214898 in ubuntu "latest batch of updates deleted all user docs, pics, music and vids?" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/21489804:44
wasabiHeck, somebody just needs to add X logs to apport files.04:44
cody-somervilleTheMuso, Try now :)04:45
LaserJockbryce: what do you think of the idea of having like cheatsheets for developers and bug workers?04:45
TheMusocody-somerville: Ok jus a sec04:45
temugenApport is nice for bugs related to crashes... but there's a lot of bugs NOT related to crashes that require the same info04:45
bryceLaserJock: I think it's a *great* idea04:45
wasabitemugen: hit Report a Problem, from any launchpad integrated application.04:45
LaserJockbryce: I think we tend to use the same documentation for learning as for reference, which is tiresome04:46
bryceLaserJock: I did what I guess could be described as a cheatsheet here - https://wiki.ubuntu.com/X/Reporting04:46
LaserJockI don't want to wade through how to make a debdiff, I want to just remember which flags/tags/subs to flip :-)04:46
TheMusocody-somerville: Much better, committed.04:47
wasabiThe Gnome Main Menu, under System, needs Report a Problem as a link.04:47
wasabiHas this been brought up?04:47
bryceLaserJock: I don't know how many bug reporters actually read that (I wish I could make them all read it), but it's proven useful for newbie / occasional Xorg bug triagers.  Gives them a paint-by-numbers way of making sure the bug report has the needed info.04:47
Hobbseei'm sure there's something relevant about pitti's mega-killall script.04:47
wasabiDude. apport already does all this. This problem is already solved.04:48
bryceLaserJock: yeah I also have my own packaging "cheatsheet" for how to do everything from rolling packages, to doing SRU's, sponsoring other people's uploads, etc.  I refer to it a lot.04:48
wasabiX11 needs to put a file in /usr/share/apport/general-hooks that attachs the X logs.04:48
wasabiThat's all.04:48
LaserJockbryce: in wiki page format?04:49
bryceLaserJock: nah, just a text file04:49
LaserJockI was wondering if I could grab one of those LaTeX cheatsheets of the net and make PDFs04:49
bryceLaserJock: it started as just my personal notes when learning packaging, and grew...04:50
wasabibryce: ... in fact you already have a hook for displayconfig. You know this right? :)04:50
brycewasabi: indeed04:50
wasabiMove it to general-hooks.04:50
wasabiAnd we can just add a Report a Bug option to the main menu, which should be there anyways. Use that to promote bug filing.04:51
brycewasabi: I think the issue is that I stuck it against xorg-server but needs to be against xorg-server-core or something.  pitti gave me a suggestion, I just haven't had time to do it04:51
LaserJockwell, there was concern about using apport for general bug reporting in stable releases04:51
bryce(and yes, I've probably spent 10x that time asking people to attach stuff in the meantime...)04:51
LaserJockgetting flooded, etc.04:51
wasabiLaserJock: Is that a real concern? Does that really happen?04:52
LaserJockthat's why it was turned off for Gutsy04:52
bryceto be honest, I kind of wonder if the bug flood from apport is part of what did in displayconfig-gtk04:52
LaserJockwe use it while in development, but turned it off right before release04:52
cody-somervilleWhen we ship such buggy apps...04:52
brycejust staying on top of the bug reports was consuming most of the development energy, so other important and necessary coding never got done04:52
wasabiSomehow I think that needs to be solveable in other ways.04:52
* cody-somerville coughs something about displayconfig-gtk.04:52
LaserJockcody-somerville: obviously we just nee perfect code04:52
wasabiI'm not sure what those other ways might be.04:52
wasabiMS probably has a department handling the automatic error reporting in Vista/XP04:53
ubotuBy default, only registered users can send private messages - Information about registering your nickname: http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#userregistration - Type « /nick <nickname> » to select your nickname.04:54
wasabiIf you're worried about crash reports, do we not have anyway to do automatic duplicate detection?04:54
wasabiIf you'r worried about everybody leaving messages in easy to make bug reports... that's different.04:54
brycesometimes I find with bugs reported via apport, the user is kind of doing a "fire and forget", and it can be hard to get followup for any additional info, or to test fixes or whatever04:55
wasabicrashes should be easily duplicate checkable.04:55
bryce(I would sort of like it if apport-reported bugs could be kept separate from "regular" bugs.  But anyway.)04:55
wasabiThey are tagged, no?04:55
LaserJockbryce: the fire-and-forget issue would be huge if we had apport on for stable releases04:56
LaserJockthat's one thing I don't like about it04:56
LaserJockI have a heck of a time getting responses from reporters04:56
xtknightyou dont even need a LP acct to report with apport do you?04:56
bryceif they could be auto-duped they might be more useful, since it'd give you a measure of the "intensity" of a given crash bug.04:57
cody-somervilleTheMuso, What do you think of me adding ps3pf-utils to the desktop seeds for PowerPC archs (since it is commonly used on the PS3)?04:57
LaserJockI thought so, but I've never actually used it so I don't know04:57
wasabiI'd say just ignore no responses. Is it that big of a deal?04:57
wasabi"Sorry, need more info."  Forget about it.04:58
LaserJockwasabi: well, it certainly can be04:58
wasabiFor the 50 you do that for, maybe 3 actually are obvious from the stack trace.04:58
TheMusocody-somerville: Its up to you, but I don't see a problem in doing so.04:58
wasabiand that's 3 bugs solved.04:58
LaserJockwe are drowning in bugs already04:58
cody-somervilleTheMuso, Will you merge my seeds again once I push it?04:58
wasabiWell, I'd rather have the information recorded than not at all... I guess.04:58
bryceyeah, it's not hard to deal with non-responders, but it's a time thing... time I could spend doing other stuff04:58
LaserJockwasabi: well, ideally I would to04:59
LaserJockbut when 90% of my bugs are usless apport reports and I can't get a response from anybody (worst case scenario) then it is a problem04:59
wasabiABout the dupe detection, is there any solution for that? I mean, if 10,000 people hit the same exact crash, the stack trace is going to be pretty much exactly the same.04:59
wasabiAt least among some very small number of them04:59
superm1slangasek, would you please merge debian-cd w/ http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~mythbuntu/debian-cd/mythbuntu-debiancd/ ? It contains updated artwork.  Thnaks04:59
LaserJockwasabi: I believe that is being worked on05:00
superm1Thanks even05:00
LaserJockwasabi: like once a bug has so many dupes then it gets turned into a real bug report05:00
wasabiAhh, yeah. That  seems reasonable.05:00
LaserJockrather than getting a report for any little crash05:00
wasabiMaybe if the dupe detection just automatically works, it' sjust a matter of sort order.05:00
cody-somervilleTheMuso, Actually, I'll get back to you on it.05:01
wasabiSort by dupe count desc/apport desc05:01
brycewasabi: I think bdmurray uses bug-buddy to help identify apport dupes05:01
wasabiAnd work from the top, maybe never getting to the bottom. ;)05:01
wasabiCould automatically mark apport bugs with superceeded packages as 'obsolete', in a way that htey drop off the default list when a new version is released.05:02
TheMusocody-somerville: ok05:03
slangasekHobbsee: what end result am I complaining about?05:09
slangaseksuperm1: merged, thanks05:16
lamonthrm... so I rebooted and got compiz...  and metacity is no longer my windowmanager???05:19
lamonthrm.. how do I tell what my window manager is, I wonder?05:21
TheMusowoops wrong tab05:27
LaserJockbryce: how about something like http://laserjock.us/files/ubuntu/uqrc.pdf05:27
LaserJockbut you know, filled in with stuff :-)05:28
lamont** (ck-list-sessions:12271): WARNING **: Failed to get list of seats: Failed to execute program /usr/lib/dbus-1.0/dbus-daemon-launch-helper: Success05:28
lamonthow very, um, annoying05:28
StevenKFailed to execute program <>: Success ? How very curious05:31
slangasekthat just means it's trying to print errno05:39
slangasekand expecting it to be non-zero when, evidently, it isn't05:39
=== fabbione is now known as fabbione-away
tjaaltonhumm, noticed a rather disturbing bug while resizing my disk using the livecd.. somehow sda1 got mounted during the gparted operations, which obviously meant that resize failed06:03
tjaaltonI guess there's no way for gparted to prevent that?06:04
=== asac_ is now known as asac
superm1perhaps the same workarounds employed in ubiquity need to be in a gparted wrapper06:07
tjaaltonright, also the swap partitions had to be swapoff'ed06:08
cody-somervilleCan someone give me a bit of sed magic that will append a string after a certain string in a group of files?06:25
cody-somervilleor better yet, just one file :)06:25
TheMusocody-somerville: SOmething like 's/orig string/orig string and new string/g'06:27
TheMusoThe g at the end may not be needed.06:28
TheMusoDepending on whether the original string occurs more than once, and whether you want to replace more than one occurance.06:28
cody-somervillewould this work?: sed -i 's/<!-- <include type="file" src="menu2.xml"/> -->/<!-- <include type="file" src="menu2.xml"/> -->\n\n<separator/>\n<app name="Add/Remove..." cmd="gnome-app-install" icon="gnome-app-install"/>'06:31
StevenKcody-somerville: You'd need to litter that with escapes06:32
StevenKsed -e 's^<!-- <include06:32
* cody-somerville sends it through the StevenK preprocessor ;]06:33
StevenKsed -e 's^\(<!-- <include type="file" src="menu2.xml"/> -->\)^\1\n\n<separator/>\n<app name="Add/Remove..." cmd="gnome-app-install" icon="gnome-app-install"/>^'06:33
* jdong notes to self: ask StevenK all sed questions06:34
StevenKI'm not sure at all if sed will respect and expand the \n's. It made add literal \n's.06:34
* cody-somerville will test.06:35
cody-somervillewoot woot06:36
dholbachgood morning06:49
warp10good morning07:08
kagouGood morning07:14
xtknightwhat package initially creates the Documents, Pictures, Music folders?07:38
xtknighti'm seeing a Bug 214898 stating that all his default folders  contain no files anymore07:38
TheMusoxtknight: xdg-user-dirs I think./07:39
xtknightTheMuso, thanks07:45
xtknightthat's it im pretty sure07:45
awen_the writing support for the danish language is broken due to the following bug 214969 ... any ideas on the best solution for this? ... probably either the depend on myspell-da or hunspell-da should be removed; is any of those dictionary-types more used than the other?08:33
ubotuLaunchpad bug 214969 in language-support-writing-da "language-support-writing-da depends on conflicting packages" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/21496908:33
moyogoI was wondering if it would be possible to go pass feature freeze and update support in 8.04 to Unicode 5.1 that came out last week?08:49
neftunemoyogo, have the changes in 5.1 been reflected in code yet?08:52
moyogoneftune: update to 5.1 would just mean changing the unicode data files in general08:53
neftunemoyogo, which ones are you talking about specifically?08:55
moyogogucharmap, glib and probably data files perl or python use08:56
asactjaalton: there? can you explain me why you decided to make a hard depends out of libflashsupport? because of the bug?09:03
asacbug 18394309:03
ubotuLaunchpad bug 183943 in flashplugin-nonfree "flashplugin-nonfree should include libflashsupport as a dependency" [Medium,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/18394309:03
tjaaltonasac: yes, so it should work without that now?09:08
asactjaalton: w definitly cannot keep it anymore ... it causes crashes like hell :(09:08
asactjaalton: i am just trying to figure for whom it breaks.09:08
asactjaalton: so far it works for everyone09:08
asaci asked09:08
asactjaalton: could you try what i asked on the bug?09:09
tjaaltonasac: ok.. I had some problems with it back then, so I'll try without the lib now09:09
asactjaalton: thanks09:09
neftunemoyogo, it looks like glib 2.16.3 just added 5.1 support and is already in hardy. python's "unicodedata" module has lagged considerably in the past09:10
moyogoneftune: yeah I just realized glib has :-), so I guess it leaves only some apps and libraries09:13
moyogoneftune: gucharmap would get 5.1 if the unicode data was regenerated when build09:13
stgraberseb128: Are you aware that your last totem upload breaks youtube playing (I get the no plugin for youtube warning) where it used to work just before the update ?09:15
seb128stgraber: yes, there is several comments about that on launchpad, I doubt I'll have time to look at it before hardy though, youtube plugin require universe plugins anyway, would be nice if somebody checked upstream if they know about the issue09:16
neftunemoyogo, http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=52723809:21
\shasac, the problem is just: without libflashsupport flashplugin will  only play sound via alsa , so someone need to setup .asoundrc correctly...and stop pulseaudio, when it's enabled by default (via esd sound mixing)...or with flashsupport you need to adjust your PA stuff to let the flash plugin stream play on your default device...which is hard to accomplish without padevchooser installed by default09:24
asac\sh: yeah, but libflashsupport causes crashes ... and those are not rare09:25
\shasac, I'm running now with flashsupport and pulse since I found out how pulse actually worked...and since then no problems anymore09:25
asac\sh: all the people i asked today had no problems with keeping pulseaudio enabled09:25
asac\sh: go to youtube video ... wait till sound plays, hit browser back ... hit browser forward, wait till sound plays and repeat09:26
asacyou will see a crash09:26
\sh(on i386 that is...I have to recheck the situation on amd64 still)09:26
\shasac, ahhhh09:26
asacoften it happens after the second time ... sometimes it needs 1009:26
\shasac, yes...this i see with latest flashplugin too...I wondered if that was because of the new flashplugin09:27
asacno thats flashsupport09:27
asac\sh: can you test if moving away libflashsupport.so really breaks sound for you again09:27
\shasac, give me a sec09:27
asaceveryone i asked had problems earlier in this cycle but don't have sissues now09:27
asac\sh: i think fixing asoundrc for some users is ok, requiring to disable pulseaudio would be a bad trade :(09:29
\shwell, moving flashsupport out of the way, restarted firefox, gives me no sound in the moment, because .asoundrc is set to use pulse09:30
\shI would need to set asoundconf back to alsa device != pulse09:31
\shwhich I will do now09:31
Amaranth\sh: and then you need hardware mixing09:33
\shAmaranth, yepp.09:33
\shand this is not working, I'll restart the session to be sure...09:33
Amaranthno one has hardware mixing :)09:33
Amaranthunless they have an X-Fi or something09:33
\shAmaranth, nope it worked before without pulse..so it should work now, too09:33
kagoumvo around ?09:34
Amaranthyou have a high-end sound card then09:34
asac\sh: try plain default setup and at best without your funky bluetooth thing ;)09:34
asac(for now)09:34
mvokagou: yes09:35
asacAmaranth: straber could play multiple streams in flash without flashsupport ... and has no hardware mixing according to him09:35
asacstgraber that is09:35
Amaranthin flash, sure09:35
Amaranthbecause pulseaudio will release the device after being idle for a bit09:36
Amaranththen dmix takes over09:36
kagoumvo, can i assign you to Bug #208419 specially the nautilus-share problem. We need to add/or modify a patch to install libpam-smbpass in the same time that samba09:36
ubotuLaunchpad bug 208419 in nautilus-share "Integrate samba password in PAM" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/20841909:36
asacthen where is the problem?09:36
asacand ... is that problem worse than crashing firefox :/09:36
\shasac, layer 8;)09:37
\shasac, asoundconf is not enough...I had the change the default sound card in gnome settings09:37
\shnow I have sound09:37
Amaranthasac: you can't play a sound in anything else at the same time as flash09:37
asacAmaranth: stgraber could use mplayer at the same time iirc09:37
\shpressing back button, pressing forward...no crash and sound09:37
\shbut only via alsa09:37
Amaranthbecause if flash is playing pulseaudio can't get its exclusive grab of the card and if pulseaudio is playing flash is blocked09:38
* \sh can use rhythmbox at the same time too :) via usb headset mixer09:38
stgraberhttp://www.stgraber.org/download/pulse.png, that's firefox without libflashsupport + mplayer using esd + mplayer using pulse09:38
Amaranth\sh: that's a different device, cheater :P09:38
\shAmaranth, nope...I have both sounds on my headset09:38
mvokagou: ok, I will check the bug out09:39
Amaranthstgraber: err, that says flash is going through pulse09:39
Amaranthso either asoundrc or libflashsupport09:39
stgraberAmaranth: I don't have a .asoundrc09:39
Amaranthperhaps it is the default then09:39
asacand he doesn't have flashsupport.09:39
asacmaybe latest flash update uses pulse now?09:40
Amaranthbut flash is going through pulse which means either flash grew pulse support without telling about it or alsa is routing things through pulse09:40
\shanyways...i have alsa now, and I can listen to two different sounds from two different apps at the same time09:40
* asac digging in the dark09:40
\shno PA daemon running, esd totally shut down in sound settings09:40
kagouthanks mvo09:40
asac\sh: can you see if you can get it working without soundrc?09:40
Amaranth\sh: then you are not using pulse at all09:40
asacbut with pulse enabled?09:41
Amaranth\sh: so that doesn't count either :P09:41
asaclike what stgraber has?09:41
stgrabermaybe flash can use ESD and Pulse has its ESD compatibility stuff ?09:41
tjaaltonasac: uh, my ff3-session got busted somehow, it just keeps on loading new windows.. is this something new with beta5?-)09:41
\shok now pulse started...09:41
\shasoundrc is set to use my usb headset09:41
\sh(which I need, I don#t have speakers on my pc here)09:41
asactjaalton: not sure what you describe :)09:42
\shso...ff3+flash is using still alsa...09:42
\shnow setting back to pulse output09:43
tjaaltonasac: started ff, it first loads the session ok (~10 windows with a lot of tabs), then a second later it loads it again, and again until the machine is so slow that the process slows down :)09:43
Amaranth\sh: close firefox and rhythmbox, set to pulse, open rhythmbox, open firefox09:43
\shAmaranth, I did :)09:44
Amarantheither flash will magically be going through pulse now or you get no sound09:44
asacstgraber: can you test this as well ^^09:44
Amaranthugh, last penguin.swf post was in december09:44
\shmy usbheadset device disappeared now while switching to pulse09:45
\shgrmpf..restarting session09:45
asacwould starting firefox with esd wrapper help if we detect pulse?09:45
Amaranthand no changelog09:45
Amaranthasac: isn't flash a separate process now?09:46
Amaranthi thought it used XEmbed09:46
asacisn't wrapper inherited to child processes?09:46
sorenslangasek: I'd like to get and ACK on bug 213991 before I upload.09:47
ubotuLaunchpad bug 213991 in libvirt "libvirt should allow for 'model' of nic" [Wishlist,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/21399109:47
stgraberasac: working09:47
* soren goes to bed09:47
Amaranthasac: the esd wrapper is for things using /dev/dsp, not alsa09:47
stgraberasac: rhythmbox + firefox, both going through pulse09:47
asacright ;)09:47
* Amaranth wishes adobe published a changelog somewhere09:47
asac(but without flashsupport i guess)09:47
stgraberno flashsupport indeed09:48
asacactually i think if we find that flash goes through pulse i don't see why flashsupport would be required09:48
\shAmaranth, ok...back to pulse...flash tries to connect to pulse but is not establishing the connection or crashes...you can see that with padevchooser -> volume control09:48
Amaranthmaybe you have a system config to route alsa through pulse and flash is less stupid now09:48
\sh(without flashsupport in /usr/lib)09:48
Amaranthif you don't have a system config to route alsa through pulse i'd say hardy is pretty broken, actually :P09:49
asac\sh: please be sure that everything is clean and you can still reproduce. maybe pulse server was busted after playing around that much.09:49
stgraberAmaranth: mplayer -ao alsa fails so I guess I don't09:49
asac(i don't trust pulse that much)09:49
AmaranthI guess we'd rather preconfigure everything with support to use pulse and leave everything else nonworking09:50
asacAmaranth: if that means no sound in flash its a pretty tough decision09:53
asactjaalton: do you use a special extension to restore your session?09:56
\shasac, nope...I restarted pulse09:57
\shasac, rhythmbox goes through pulse now09:57
\shand flash tries to establish a connection on pulse...but doesn't succeed...and flashsupport is now in /root and not in /usr/lib anymore09:58
tjaaltonasac: no, it's built-in09:58
tjaaltonasac: I think ff2 already had the feature, before you needed an extension for it09:59
asac\sh: but if flash tries to establish a connetion to pulse it isn't it a pulse bug?09:59
\shasac, nope09:59
tjaalton"before that.."10:00
asac\sh: why? i mean it tries to use pulse10:00
\shasac, I wonder what magic adobe implemented now to try at least a pulse connection10:00
\shasac, yes...but I think somethings changed in flashplugin without knowing it...I didn't see that behaviour with 115 but now with 12810:01
\shaeh 12710:01
asacyeah. but why doesn't pulse accept the connection. thats what bothers me10:01
asacstgraber: does it work for you?10:01
\shasac, because something's wrong in flashplugin...it's not pulse10:01
asac\sh: maybe you tweaked pulse in some way?10:01
\shasac, nope10:02
stgraberasac: yep, that's why I get the "Adobe Flash: Flash Animation" in pavucontrol10:02
\shasac, I need flash at work :) so I'm not a friend of breaking my working environment10:02
stgraber\sh: i386 or amd64 ?10:02
\shstgraber, i386 right now...I test with amd64 this evening10:02
stgraberI'm running 6410:02
tjaaltonasac: I know what it's doing.. it opened all the windows that I had opened at some time during the last session. it loaded 87 windows in total :)10:02
\shstgraber, do you see this flashing connection thingy in volume-control of padevchooser?10:03
asactjaalton: ah. so not a bug?10:03
\shstgraber, for application streams?10:03
asactjaalton: ah now i read what you mean10:03
tjaaltonasac: it is, it should load what I had when I closed firefox10:03
asactjaalton: can you reproduce?10:03
tjaaltonasac: I'll try to reproduce with a clean profile10:03
asactjaalton: maybe that happened when the upgrade was pushed underneath while running firefox?10:04
stgraber\sh: no, I have "Adobe Flash: Flash Animation" there while watching something on youtube10:04
tjaaltonasac: well, then I had to kill it since "file - quit" didn't work. it loaded fine with beta5 then, but this is probably the first time I've restarted since the update10:05
\shstgraber, well, not here..I moved libflashsupport.so out of the way, as discussed, and now I have a flashy thingy...10:05
\shI'm trying to record that now10:05
\shgive me some mins10:05
ogra_cmpctjaalton, did your vdr upload fix the xine frontend ? (i recently got a dvb-t stick, when i tried vdr it didnt wnat to work with xine)10:05
asactjaalton: ok. i'd file it under the "all kind of obscure things can happen if you don't close firefox while upgrading"10:05
stgraber\sh: the only difference I see between your flash and mine is that I'm using nspluginwrapper10:05
tjaaltonogra_cmpc: I don't know, never used that myself. It probably needs some fiddling because 64bit FTBFS'd10:07
tjaaltonogra_cmpc: I'll check what debian has now10:07
ogra_cmpcah, k, i'll wait then, no pressure or something :)10:08
Amaranthasac: I wonder why that is10:08
AmaranthDoes firefox not keep its own resources in memory?10:08
asacAmaranth: it loads things lazily10:09
asacAmaranth: so if you don't use a module (mostly chrome files), then upgrade and then try a previously not used feature it will either pull in incompatible modules (like in firefox2) or nothing (like now)10:09
\shstgraber, asac : http://archive.linux-server.org/flashproblem.ogg10:10
asacnote: this is not really about shared libs, but about the chrome/*.jar files10:10
asac\sh: strange. but i don't see why this is not a pulse bug10:12
\shasac, because with the old flashplugin this didn't happen...10:12
asacwell ... the old plash plugin apparnetly didn't try pulse at all10:12
\shasac, so something changed during the update from 115 to 12410:12
\shasac, right :)10:12
stgraber\sh: yours is "alsa playback" mine isn't ...10:13
asacthat still doesn't tell me that its a flash bug. maybe flash could workaround a bug in pulse.10:13
\shstgraber, again...everthing is setback to pulse..10:13
Amaranthasac: I'm be much more likely to blame flash than pulse10:14
\shstgraber, only libflashsupport.so is moved away10:14
Amaranthflash doesn't do _anything_ right10:14
asacAmaranth: why?10:14
asacbut pulse does?10:14
Amaranth"hmm, lets see how many alsa connections we can open"10:14
tjaaltonasac: seems that sessionstore.js is reducing in size now that I let firefox start without killing it, so no urgent need to do anything :)10:14
\shstgraber, the alsa playback is triggerd from flash, not from anything else :)10:14
stgraberhere I have no mention of alsa in pavucontrol, like if flash is trying to connect using ESD or Pulse and not alsa10:15
asactjaalton: ok thanks.10:15
tjaalton(reducing when I close windows)10:15
\shstgraber, yepp...esd is not running, only PA10:15
\shstgraber, which is somehow the default when you click on sound settings, esd mixing10:15
\shstgraber, and this evening I'll have to see how my amd64 is behaving10:16
asacAmaranth: if we have an idea what flash does wrong, we could raise that with adobe. but i can't go there claiming that they are broken if we are not sure whats going on on pulse side.10:16
stgraberit seems that flash is using ESD here and my pulse is listening to ESD connection (first time I use pulse, so I assume it's the default)10:16
asac(well ill do anyway, but i want to know as much details as possible)10:17
Amaranthstgraber: ah, right10:17
stgraberasac: looks like flash can use ESD instead of alsa, then it works with pulse using the ESD compatibility of pulse10:17
Amaranthit tries alsa, fails, tries oss, fails, tries esd, gets pulse10:17
asacstgraber: ok. so how does it work?10:17
stgraberasac: as Amaranth said10:17
asacstgraber: would we need to change anything to make everything work?10:17
Amaranth_but_ if pulse is configured to release the device on idle then flash can snag it and break pulse10:18
stgraberasac: I never changed my pulse config, so I'd assume listening on ESD port/socket is default10:18
asacAmaranth: ah. so you say flash would end up in alsa if pulse releases it?10:18
asac\sh: tweaked that?10:18
AmaranthI'm not sure if we have pulse configured to hold on to the device, the default is to release it after 10 seconds or so10:19
stgraber\sh: can you try : mplayer -ao esd something-here ?10:19
\shasac, no...this alsa playback is bugging me...why does pulse catch that...10:19
\shstgraber, yepp10:19
asac\sh: this means that esd released your device (like Amaranth said)10:19
asaclets figure if thats the default10:19
\shstgraber, it's connecting to pulse10:20
\shstgraber, I can see the stream normally...without flashing10:20
asacwe have:10:20
asac### Automatically suspend sinks/sources that become idle for too long10:20
asacload-module module-suspend-on-idle10:20
asacis that the config?10:20
stgraberasac: I don't think having pulse locking the device is a good idea (most games won't work if we do so) but flash shouldn't try alsa/oss first and start with pulse (if we can change this behaviour)10:20
asacstgraber: ok. but can we reproduce \sh flashing?10:20
stgraberasac: without the ESD part of PA I think so10:21
Amaranthasac: Right, we either need to not load that module or somehow make flash use esd first10:21
asacstgraber: what do you mean? how did you enable the ESD part?10:21
stgraberI just tried on a newly installed computer and PA is listening for ESD connection by default (ie. mplayer -ao esd /usr/share/sounds/login.wav works)10:21
Amaranthhe has pulse active and has that module installed :)10:22
stgraberAmaranth: seems to be the default ...10:22
asac\sh: ^^ ??10:22
\shmplayer -ao esd /usr/share/sounds/login.wav <- works :) via pulse10:22
Amaranthah, ubuntu-desktop depends on that package :)10:23
\shii  pulseaudio-esound-compat                                                    0.9.10-1ubuntu1                             PulseAudio ESD compatibility layer10:23
asacsorry, i don't get why \sh doesn't have that default even though he didn't change any pulse config. what am i missing?10:23
Amaranthbut flash can't connect to pulse using the esd compat stuff10:23
Amaranththat seems to be the problem for \sh10:23
Amaranthbut not a problem for stgraber10:23
asacAmaranth: why does he use compat stuff and stgraber not?10:23
AmaranthThey both do10:24
\shasac, diff in amd64 and i386?10:24
\shasac, nspluginwrapper e.g.?10:24
asacok, so its nspluginwraper vs. not nspluginwrapper?10:24
asaci can't imagine why10:24
AmaranthThey both have the compat stuff and it works with mplayer but doesn't seem to work for \sh with flash10:24
AmaranthI can't imagine nspluginwrapper breaking a wire protocol10:24
Riddellevand, cjwatson: small fix to gtk_ui.py committed, please check for sanity10:24
AmaranthBut I have seen stranger things10:25
asacAmaranth: actually in this case it would not be "breaking", but "fixing"10:25
asacstgraber: uses nspluginwrapper10:25
AmaranthOh, \sh is the one with x86?10:25
asacthats even more crazy10:25
\shAmaranth, right10:25
stgraber\sh: can you run "pacmd"10:25
stgraber\sh: then : list-modules10:25
stgraber\sh: and look for : module-esound-protocol-unix10:26
\sh index: 610:26
\sh        name: <module-esound-protocol-unix>10:26
\sh        argument: <>10:26
\sh        used: -110:26
\sh        auto unload: no10:26
Amaranththat's what i get too10:26
stgraber\sh: same here ...10:26
Amaranthused is weird but it is -1 for everything :P10:26
Amaranthcrap don't run 'exit' in there10:27
Amaranthit doesn't exit the shell, it exits pulseaudio10:27
stgraberAmaranth: list-modules is : List loaded modules so ...10:27
stgraberuse ctrl+d to exit the shell10:27
asacAmaranth: maybe i missed it, but does it work for you? (in ephy obviously :))10:30
Amaranthi don't have ephy installed :P10:30
Amaranthi was just about to test this10:30
* asac bows down10:30
Amaranthi still have flash 124 :/10:31
Amaranthephy will be cool again when it uses webkit, right now i don't see a use :)10:31
pwnguinTheMuso: then feel free to have a look at bug #20342910:31
tjaaltonok, so how should I test this pulse/ff/flash -madness?10:31
ubotuLaunchpad bug 203429 in initramfs-tools "resume script missing functions" [Undecided,Fix released] https://launchpad.net/bugs/20342910:31
pwnguin11538 jldugger  20   0  687m  72m  22m S  190  7.2  13:21.50 pluginappletvie10:31
Amaranthok, what version of flash should i have?10:32
Amaranthdoesn't matter, works with the one i have10:32
Amaranthoh, i need to move libflashsupport aside10:32
stgraberAmaranth: 12410:33
asactjaalton: use the latest, use default setting for everything pulse related ... then see if rhythmbox works together with flash sound10:33
AmaranthALSA lib pcm_dmix.c:874:(snd_pcm_dmix_open) unable to open slave10:34
Amaranthabout a bazillion times10:34
Amaranthno sound, obviously...10:34
stgraberyou probably already have an alsa software running (rhythmbox ?)10:34
ogra_cmpcAmaranth, thats exactly the error libflsashsupport works around :)10:34
Amaranthogra_cmpc: I know :P10:34
Amaranthstgraber: No, I have pulse running10:35
AmaranthThe whole point is to get flash talking to pulse :P10:35
ogra_cmpcwont work without libflashsupport10:35
asacogra_cmpc: yesterday you said that flashssuport just cares for open file descriptors ;)10:35
Amaranthogra_cmpc: stgraber's system apparently says otherwise10:35
ogra_cmpcasac, exactly ... and the message above is one of the symptoms10:35
Amaranthand libflashsupport causes crashes10:36
Amaranthso 3 systems, 3 different outcomes10:36
Amaranththis sucks :P10:36
asacwell, flashsupport crashes for everyone ;)10:36
stgraberogra_cmpc: here flash just uses ESD and everything works fine (tm)10:36
ogra_cmpcAmaranth, libflashsupport worked fine for three releases in ltsp10:36
ogra_cmpcstgraber, yeah, thst indeed different10:37
Amaranth\sh gets a pulse connection error, I get an alsa connection error, stgraber gets everything working10:37
asacogra_cmpc: that doesn't matter. and its likely that its due to a race/deadlock so you might just not have seen this10:37
Amaranthi think there is an env variable to make it choose which to use by default10:37
tjaaltonasac: ok, not using any .asoundrc tricks, "software sound mixing" is on, and the rest should be default as well. If I start firefox/flash first all is well, but if I leave RB running and restart ff, the flash clips stay grey10:37
ogra_cmpcasac, how about setting the good old DSP environment variable in /etc  ?10:37
ogra_cmpcand poiint that to esd10:37
asacogra_cmpc: the wrapper only works for oss according to Amaranth10:38
ogra_cmpciwj took that out a while ago, how about trying if it works now :)10:38
Amaranthi thought, anyway :/10:38
ogra_cmpcwell, how did stgraber then get flash talk to esd ?10:38
asacyou can test it i guess, by manually running firefox wrapped10:38
asacif that works id consider to wrap firefox i ncase i can detect pulse enabled10:39
Amaranthpadsp certainly doesn't help10:39
Amaranthwhat is the esd one?10:39
asacthats what i don't know and nobody could tell me :( ... maybe just esd /usr/lib/firefox-3.0b5/firefox ?10:39
Amaranthrhythmbox is playing 'mad' music :P10:40
asacogra_cmpc: i have no esddsp10:40
ogra_cmpcesddsp is corret10:40
Amaranthfits the mood10:40
asacdo i need a package for that?10:40
Amaranthasac: esound-clients10:40
stgraberoh, I just noticed, I'm not running PA using the init.d script but it's gnome that's starting it ... not sure it makes any difference though10:40
asacok ... \sh does it work to run firefox as above?10:40
ogra_cmpcasac, esound-clients10:41
asactjaalton: and you?10:41
\shhmm...via esd?10:41
ogra_cmpcbut i dont know how trhe dependency chain is here, it might conflict10:41
stgraberso it's running as myself and not as "pulse"10:41
Amaranthbut esddsp is broken, it tries to preload non-existent files10:41
tjaaltonasac: sorry, what?10:41
asacERROR: ld.so: object '/usr/lib/libesddsp.so.0' from LD_PRELOAD cannot be preloaded: ignored.10:41
asacthats what i get10:41
ogra_cmpceek, indeed10:41
asactjaalton: nevermind ... esddsp is broken too :(10:42
asacthat lib doesn't exist at all10:42
asacwhere is it?10:42
Amaranthit moved to /usr/lib/esound/libesddsp.so.010:42
Amaranthchange the script10:42
\shasac, what do I need to do? sry..didn't catch it..doing some real life work too here;)10:42
asacrun esddsp /usr/lib/firefox-3.0b5/firefox10:43
asac\sh: ^^10:43
ogra_cmpcmv .asoundrc.asoundconf  .asoundrc.asoundconf.old && asoundconf set-pulseaudio10:43
Amaranthno help10:43
ogra_cmpcdoes that chzage something ^^^^10:43
* \sh needs to install that first10:43
Amaranthogra_cmpc: that's not what we want :P10:43
ogra_cmpcAmaranth, that should be exactly what you want10:43
asaccan't we fix human beings not caring about sound?10:43
\shasac, sound and linux is evil...and I wonder when we can fix that10:43
ogra_cmpccant we just fix libflashsupport ?10:44
asacogra_cmpc: feel free. i tried, but didn't succeed10:44
asacand warren didn't want to take a look apparently10:44
Amaranthogra_cmpc: no, that breaks pulse10:44
\shasac, no change with flash thingy on padevchooser volume control10:44
Amaranthbecause it doesn't handle flash opening 1024 connections10:45
\shsame with padsk10:45
\shpadsp even10:45
asacAmaranth: can't pulse close idle connections :) ?10:45
Amaranththat being asoundconf change10:45
ogra_cmpcAmaranth, indeed you need libflashsupport for the handles10:46
ogra_cmpcbut in that setup it works stable since feisty for ltsp10:46
\shogra_cmpc, libflashsupport is not nearly alpha stage regarding adobes comments ,->10:46
asacok. so our bug is that flash doesn't close asound handles?10:46
ogra_cmpc\sh, libflashsupport was abandoned by adobe over a year ago10:46
asac\sh: i doubt that adobe really considers flashsupport a solution at all10:46
ogra_cmpcits maintained in the pulseaudio source since 6monthjs10:47
\shwell, what I don't understand is, what flash is doing since new version...the old 115 didn't try to connect to pulse somehow...and never showed this behaviour10:47
* \sh tries to find the damn changelog for flash linux10:47
Amaranth\sh: new flash doesn't try for me either10:47
Amaranththere is some flash specific env variable to make it prefer esd, i swear10:48
asacstgraber: can you dump your envs?10:48
asacAmaranth: can't you block the other options somehow? so it ends up trying esd?10:48
Amaranththat's what i'm saying10:49
asacno i mean to test, block them outside of flsah ;)10:49
Amaranthalthough the more i think about it the more i think that might be been a feature of the original (horrible) libflashsupport10:49
* asac runs strings on the binary10:49
\shAmaranth, no env var for me here...10:49
Amaranthno, there is no way to block10:49
ogra_cmpcasac, you didnt ask in #pulseaudio about http://www.pulseaudio.org/ticket/225 yesterday, right ?10:49
Amaranthbecause it is already blocked, it tries until it isn't blocked :P10:50
\shand firefoxrc tells me that dsp is none10:50
ogra_cmpcasac, i pinged the channel with a question bout it, lets see what the actual maintainer say :)10:50
asac\sh: firefoxrc is not considered10:50
asacshould be removed10:50
stgraberasac: ^10:50
\shasac, I'm just checking what could lead to something which makes sense10:51
ogra_cmpc\sh, all we need is a fix for http://www.pulseaudio.org/ticket/22510:51
asacyeah. what firefoxrc did was to tell firefox start script to start with a wrapper10:52
ogra_cmpcfiddling around with esd and other stuff doesnt really get us anywhere10:52
asacno luck parsing the strings output of flashplugin binary so far (searching for ESD env)10:52
ogra_cmpcasac, forget it, flash alsways used libesd directly, i doubt they fixed that when they switched to alsa support10:53
Amaranthasac: apparently we are the first to find that, whatever it may be10:54
dholbachthekorn: does launchpadbugs.commentsbase.attachments work for you?10:54
Amaranthgoogle knows nothing10:55
dholbachthekorn: I tried it on https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/acidbase/+bug/135425/comments/1 and the set is empty10:55
ubotuLaunchpad bug 135425 in acidbase "Attack names not shown on default install" [Undecided,New]10:55
ogra_cmpcAmaranth, not really, else there wouldnt be a bug abo8ut it upstream10:55
Amaranthogra_cmpc: err, i meant FLASH_ALSA_DEVICE10:56
ogra_cmpcAmaranth, ah10:56
asacAmaranth: the reason why nobody saw that is because the backtrace gives no info about that10:56
asacwe found the way to reproduce by accident10:56
asacand maybe its only uncovered in ffox 3 (which is not yet that wide spread)10:56
Amaranthasac: err, i meant FLASH_ALSA_DEVICE10:56
asacoh ;)10:56
\shwhat could be the value...export FLASH_ALSA_DEVICE=pulse doesn't fix it ,->10:57
asacthere is also a string: SOUND_COMPLETE :)10:57
dholbachthekorn: and it crashes with the HTML connector: http://paste.ubuntu.com/6692/ :-(10:57
ogra_cmpc\sh, padsp ?10:58
Amaranth\sh: i imagine it is something like 'hw:0'10:58
\shAmaranth, I wonder if we can work around it when introducing a monitor device or something :)10:58
\shI mean I can reroute a PA monitor device to a pcm.monitor device :)10:59
\shwhich then can be used for recording software not capable of pulse10:59
ogra_cmpc\sh, did you try with padsp as device ?10:59
\shogra_cmpc, padsp /usr/lib/ff-3.0b5/firefox doesn't change anything....10:59
ogra_cmpcif you route it through various monitors it very likely that yous sound gets async over time10:59
\shogra_cmpc, or you mean export FLASH_ALSA_DEVICE=padsp ?11:00
\shno change11:00
\shsame behaviour...flashing in pulse but no sound11:00
MacSlowI get "unsupported version 0 of Verneed record" for svn's /usr/lib/libsvn_wc-1.so.111:05
MacSlowAnybody with a clue what that means?11:05
asacogra_cmpc: i think i joined the pa channel late. what was the outcome?11:09
thekorndholbach: bug.comments[x].attachments is always empty in the text mode, because LP's +text does not link an attachment to a comment11:12
dholbachthekorn: ah ok - I just wondered if there was a way to figure out how old a patch is11:12
Riddellcjwatson: how come partition_button_undo is a special case for translations?  just because there was an existing string for it and not for the others?11:12
thekorndholbach: can you please file bug bugreport on the crash in the html-mode, this should work,11:13
mvokagou: nautilus-share should be fixed11:13
dholbachthekorn: will do11:13
thekornyou should be able to workaround this by calling b.attachments before b.comments[x].attachemnts11:13
Riddellcjwatson: the partitioner has lost the default mountpoints and partition types, is that deliberate?  http://kubuntu.org/~jriddell/tmp/partition-buttons.png11:15
tjaaltonasac: heh, seems that enabling libflashsupport again didn't change my situation. the flash-videos get hung almost like they did without the lib (when RB is playing in the background)11:23
tjaaltonasac: hum, refresh sorted that out11:23
ogra_cmpcasac, that pulse bug sounds suspiciously like we could just fix it by dropping the second pthread_mutex_lock() from FPI_SoundOutput_FillBuffer11:29
asacogra_cmpc: is it guarded by a !same_thread NOR ui-thread ?11:29
ogra_cmpccould we drop the FF side here ?11:31
asacogra_cmpc: firefox side? what do yo umean?11:31
ogra_cmpcwell, there is a pthread_mutex_lock() as well as one issued by libflashsupport11:31
ogra_cmpcwe only want one, right (at least to teh same mutex)11:32
asacogra_cmpc: which line do you refer to in flashsupport?11:33
ogra_cmpci didnt look at the code, just followed the logic in the bug11:33
ogra_cmpci was unbder the impression FPI_SoundOutput_FillBuffer comes from libflashsupport11:35
ogra_cmpcseems its not11:35
ogra_cmpcasac, did anyone try with libflashsupport connected directly to alsa ?11:37
ogra_cmpc(needs a recompile of libflashsupport with alsa dep added)11:38
asacogra_cmpc: i tried it11:38
ogra_cmpcah, k11:38
asacit crashes even easier11:38
asacbut in general the same11:38
ogra_cmpcyeah, one layer less :(11:38
amitkogra_cmpc: had a chance to try the kernel I posted yesterday?12:02
Nghmm, I just applied the last day or two's worth of hardy updates and my theme (darklooks) started showing black on black tooltips. the colour options in Appearances let me fix it, but what could have reset that? (or at they options that I couldn' previously override?)12:09
munckfishcjwatson: is it a convenient moment to chat about ps3 port stuff?12:12
ogra_cmpcamitk, looks good so far ... (beyond tha fact that the kernel takes 5 min to boot (guessiong thats through debug stuff you enabled tohough) and usplash being totally broken)12:30
* ogra_cmpc hugs amitk 12:30
ogra_cmpcoh, wait, now it got stuck12:31
* ogra_cmpc tries agign12:32
amitkogra_cmpc: don't enable wireless for now, when n-m asks for access, deny it12:35
ogra_cmpcright, i had the keyring question12:35
Hobbseeslangasek: i thought it was you, anyway12:37
ogra_cmpcamitk, bah, nm as a whole seems broken ... even making a new connection breaks12:39
kagouthank you mvo :)12:43
ogra_cmpcamitk, beyond that its just beautiful :D12:43
amitkogra_cmpc: also try the -13 kernel that I am uploading to rookery, it should allow wireless to work too.12:44
ogra_cmpcamitk, any idea what causes the NM breakage ? anything i can work on to take load off you ?12:44
ogra_cmpcah, ok12:44
ogra_cmpcits funny, your kernel seems to become fster with every boot12:46
amitkogra_cmpc: it learns its way around ;)12:46
ogra_cmpcthe first one took nearly 10 mins ... the subsequent ones about 5 ... now its less than one12:46
ogra_cmpci.e. as fzast as mine12:46
amitkogra_cmpc: could be garbage collection on the flash FS?12:47
\share the buildds already on manual?12:48
Hobbseeshould'nt be12:49
ogra_cmpcamitk, hmm, right12:52
ogra_cmpcamitk, i'm at my 20th successfull suspend cycle now, i guess we can consider that part working :)13:04
amitkogra_cmpc: heh, now to figure out which one of our 1000 patches is breaking it in the Ubuntu kernel ;)13:05
Mithrandiramitk: "git bisect" :-)13:06
ion_amitk: git-bisect or the equivalent for whatever VCS you're using should help a lot.13:06
amitkogra_cmpc: the -13 kernel i sent is a patch on top of stock, so atleast we have it working on 2.6.2413:07
amitkMithrandir: yeah... already prepping for git bisect13:07
cody-somervilleslangasek, Once my push mirrors on launchpad, will you merge the xubuntu seeds and rebuild please (with a cherry on top)? :)13:24
jeromegcody-somerville: hello13:26
cody-somervilleHello jeromeg13:27
jeromegi was thinking of something the other day13:27
* cody-somerville nods.13:27
jeromegshouldn't the xfce about dialog in the menu display the version of xfce and ubuntu the system is using ?13:27
lagacjwatson: i hate to be wasting your time, but the mythbuntu.hardy seeds don't work with germinate: http://www.pastebin.ca/979505 maybe you can take a look? http://bazaar.launchpad.net/%7Emythbuntu/ubuntu-seeds/mythbuntu.hardy/ is current13:29
cody-somervillejeromeg, Good point. It already displays the version of Xfce but not Xubuntu.13:30
jeromegcody-somerville: oh ok13:30
cody-somervillejeromeg, Would you be kind enough to file a bug against xfce4-utils (source package)?13:31
kagoumvo still around ?! :)13:31
jeromegcody-somerville: i'll13:31
jeromegcody-somerville: i could propose a patch, but i've no idea on how to localize the string13:32
cody-somervillejeromeg, We only use the numbers after release.13:33
jeromegcody-somerville: sorry, by localize i meant, make it display in french in a french environment, in english, in german in ...13:34
jeromegso that it fits all languages13:34
cody-somerville"Xubuntu 8.04" is pretty universal :)13:34
jeromegoh ok :)13:34
jeromegi thought something like "Your system runs Xubuntu 8.04."13:35
mvokagou: why13:35
jeromegbut yours is fine and does not need translating :)13:35
mvokagou: yes :)13:35
cody-somervillejeromeg, Well, how is the current text translated? If it isn't already translated, I wouldn't worry about it.13:35
jeromegi've no idea13:35
cody-somervillejeromeg, and it is too late to add new strings anyhow even if we wanted it translated13:35
kagoumvo, as you know nautilus-share, we need to solve Bug #212098 and may be you can create a patch13:35
ubotuLaunchpad bug 212098 in nautilus-share ""easy" file sharing not notifying about logout/restart" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/21209813:35
jeromegcody-somerville: i think it was translated in launchpad, but now that xfce moved to universe...13:36
mvokagou: I will have a look13:36
kagoumvo, great. I was thinking about a popup notification (dbus ?!!)13:36
jeromegcody-somerville: for example the logout dialog is not translated anymore, because there is xubuntu patch to add a suspend button13:36
cody-somervillejeromeg, We should see about tackling that issue for Intrepid.13:37
jeromegcody-somerville: yep13:37
kagoumvo, your last patch for nautilus-share working great :) Thanks you13:38
mvokagou: great, thanks13:38
ogra_cmpcamitk, ok, nm working again ... sound is MIA now :)13:40
Keybuk^ slangasek will explode with joy13:48
cody-somervillejeromeg, As for now, you can just pull the info from /etc/lsb-release and slap it on the top of the paragraph :)13:48
asac\sh: http://paste.ubuntu.com/6697/14:08
asaci guess thats what you are seeing14:08
asacogra_cmpc: stgraber: Amaranth: maybe read this as well ^^14:09
ogra_cmpcsounds familiar14:09
asacso \sh probably had the plugin loaded14:10
asacogra_cmpc: which lock did you suspect?14:13
Riddellevand: I've implemented the resize widget in kde_ui, see also 21513114:45
Riddellbug 21513114:45
ubotuLaunchpad bug 215131 in ubiquity "resize widget changes for clarity" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/21513114:45
=== Sebast1an is now known as Sebastian
=== thekorn_ is now known as thekorn
evandRiddell: fantastic!  Thanks a bunch.  Do you think it is ready for Hardy, or should it wait for Intrepid?15:00
\shasac, what plugin?15:02
asac\sh: from what i understand thats about the PA plugin for alsa15:02
asac\sh: "Opened 3 months ago15:03
asac\sh: http://paste.ubuntu.com/6697/15:03
\shasac, when it means: pcm.!default { type pulse }15:03
\shctl.!default { type pulse }15:03
\sh then yes15:03
ogra_cmpcthats what we use in ltsp15:03
ogra_cmpc(which works fine apparently)15:04
\shyou need to, when you have apps which are not running with pulse natively15:04
\sh(as I need to run, e.g. recordmydesktop ;))15:04
\shasac, will it be fixed, when removing this alsa plugin, or will flash+flashsupport still crash?15:05
asac\sh: thats about how flash tries to work without flashsupport15:05
asacapparently it works for some though ... which is interesting at least15:05
asac\sh: flashsupport is rather inheritantly broken15:06
\shas I said, sound + linux is sometimes really crappy ;)15:06
asacyeah, thats no news :)15:06
asacfor all of us i guess15:06
ogra_cmpcasac, thats very likely HW specific15:06
ogra_cmpccards that can do dmix might provide a free channel for direct flash access aside of pulse15:07
\shogra_cmpc, no..I think the HW problems are somewhat solved, the problems are the different sound architectures introduced over time15:07
ogra_cmpc\sh, i meant the fact that it works for some15:07
\shogra_cmpc,oh, ok :)15:07
ogra_cmpcif alsa can do dmix because you have HW that can, it will be possible to run pulse and flash native on alsa alongside15:08
ogra_cmpcsadly the cheap cards cant do dmix15:08
ogra_cmpcand indeed cheap == majority :P15:08
ogra_cmpcif all cards would have dmix support we could get rid of soundservers altogether15:09
\shwell, I would say: integrated cards == majority...15:09
tjaaltondmix == software mixing?15:09
tjaaltonat least that's how I've understood it..15:10
kagouhey slangasek15:11
ogra_cmpcasac, come on, its only three layers15:12
\shogra_cmpc, two layers too much :)15:13
apachelogger_mvo: pling15:14
ogra_cmpc\sh, fully agreed15:14
\shogra_cmpc, let's fix it for intrepid ;)15:14
ogra_cmpceven though you wont get around kernel vs userspace15:14
\shogra_cmpc, of course...use the technique we used when we were young...two tins with a nylon fiber...to transmit soundwaves from a to b ;)15:16
Riddellevand: yeah, it's mostly a copy of the gtk code15:17
ogra_cmpc\sh, nowadays you need four cans and two strings ... stereo, you know ... :)15:17
evandRiddell: ah, indeed.  Just pulled.  Mind if I subscribe ubuntu-release to the bug, or can you approve it?15:18
Riddellevand: approve?15:18
Riddellsubscribe away15:18
evandRiddell: It needs a UI freeze exception, no?15:18
asacwhy does alsa need such cryptic things like asoundrc ... it should just work, shouldn't it?15:18
\shogra_cmpc, oh damn...yes :)15:18
ogra_cmpcasac, its should, yes ... asoundrc is a wrokaround and fine tuning tool15:19
asacyeah ... still everywhere i look i see "use this or that asoundrc" ... and i don't understand any of those15:19
ogra_cmpcbut you have working sound ... you jusy introduce an unstable layer through adding pulse15:19
asaci still don't get why we did that without checking for regressions in all major apps15:20
asaci mean esd was not enabled by default in gutsy?15:20
\shasac, the problem starts, when you use e.g. a headset via usb...it's add a new soundcard actually...and then you need to point alsa to the correct soundcard to use15:20
\shasac, with pulse enabled it's a bit easier...now you click and point ;)15:21
ogra_cmpcasac, i dont think anyone actually had assigned a task for sound15:21
ogra_cmpcwhich is odd15:21
asacogra_cmpc: so where did this come from?15:21
ogra_cmpcafaik gnome defaults to pulse15:22
ogra_cmpcso we did the switch too15:22
asacyes, but why is it enabled by default now?15:22
ogra_cmpcit always was15:22
ogra_cmpclogin and logout sound depend on it15:22
asacoh. so things have just improved that much that we now notice that somethign like firefox is broken with esd :)15:22
Ngasac: do you know if it's deliberate that network manager doesn't do the equivalent of "iwconfig wlan0 ap off" when it switches from wireless to wired?15:23
asacand thus weadded flashssupport )15:23
asacNg: the driver should do the same for wlan0 essid off15:23
ogra_cmpcupstream added pulse15:23
asacNg: i think network manager does that15:23
ogra_cmpcwe followed15:23
Ngasac: ah interesting, because it's not doing that here on 4965 and so after I switch to wired, the wireless chip is in a loop trying to get on the AP15:24
asacogra_cmpc: but before it was esd. and with esd everything was broken for me all the time15:24
asacNg: yeah. try the linux-backports module for iwl15:24
Ngasac: I've tried lbm and lum15:24
Nghmm, "iwconfig wlan0 essid off" has associated me with a nearby Belkin AP15:25
NgI've definitely never associated with that before15:25
asacNg: thats a driver issue for sure15:25
asacNg: check if the module is set to "auto-associate" ... if there is such a parm at all15:25
asacNg: is the bheaviour any different if you turn of wireless completely in applet?15:26
Ngno such parameter i can see for iwl496515:26
NgI'll test shortly15:26
asacNg: parm:           disable_hw_scan:disable hardware scanning (default 0) (int)15:28
asacno idea if that will make you loopy15:28
Ngasac: I'd rather give up wired than have to specify all my wireless networks by hand ;)15:34
asacNg: he? does that really stop network manager from finding networks?15:42
Ngasac: oh, I don't actually know, I was guessing based on the description15:43
asacNg: try. for me these HW_XXX things read more like: let the driver do some magic that nobody wants anyway ;)15:48
Ngasac: hey, I want lots of magic! ;)15:50
Ngbut I will explore more options15:50
=== cody-somerville_ is now known as cody-somerville
cody-somervilleslangasek, I got disconnected. Did you see my request?15:59
\shheading for home...cu later16:00
emgentbye \sh16:02
affluxmvo: bug 206866 is ubuntu-only since the crash was introduced in compiz' patch 037_fullscreen_stacking_fixes.patch. I heard you're packaging a new upstream release, could you please add a check to the call in plugins/move.c whether "w" is actually valid? This should fix this bug.16:02
ubotuLaunchpad bug 206866 in compiz "compiz.real crashed with SIGSEGV in updateWindowAttributes()" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/20686616:02
mvoafflux: let me have a look16:04
affluxmvo: another thing is bug 209216, do you think we should set it to wontfix?16:28
ubotuLaunchpad bug 209216 in compiz "Attempted to unregister path (path[0] = org path[1] = freedesktop) which isn't registered" [Low,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/20921616:28
asaclamont: any idea why firefox 3 translation tarball didn't appear in http://people.ubuntu.com/~lamont/translations/ ... though its in .changes?16:42
asaclamont: http://launchpadlibrarian.net/13136097/firefox-3.0_3.0~b5%2Bnobinonly-0ubuntu1_i386.changes16:42
lamontasac: are translations still being pushed through my people account?16:42
lamontand no, no clue without going to look.16:43
asaclamont: according to carlos yes.16:43
asaclamont: xulrunner-1.9 worked, firefox-3.0 didn't for whatever reason.16:43
carloslamont: as far as I know, yes16:43
asaclamont: would be really cool to get this sorted before i upload the next update ( so we can test if everything works now)16:43
asaclamont: or at least an idea why this isn't working ;)16:44
asacpitti is unfortunately away this week16:44
ogra_cmpcseb128, where does get gnome the info about screensize from ? my panels seem to think the screen is only 1024x768 while i have 1280x800 atm16:46
seb128ogra_cmpc: it has no guessed value16:47
seb128ogra_cmpc: that usually happens when you have multiple screens16:47
seb128ogra_cmpc: ie a projector connected to a laptop16:47
ogra_cmpchmm, i only have one LCD panel16:47
seb128the panel will adapt to the projector resolution16:47
ogra_cmpcseb128, thanks, lots of hugs for you16:48
seb128np ;-)16:48
ogra_cmpcit hs an external output and obviously changing the resolution for that from 1024x768 to off fixes it16:49
ogra_cmpceven though there is nothing connected to it ... weird16:49
=== davmor2 is now known as davmor2_away
infinitycarlos: Err, we've been uploading translation tarballs with package uploads for years now... Are you serious that you (or someone) still fetches stuff from lamont's home on rookery?16:55
carlosinfinity: we keep them for debugging purposes16:56
carlosinfinity: that's why we only keep last 9-10 days16:56
mjg59slangasek: Hm. Can one fix to hotkey-setup be made?16:56
mjg59slangasek: The init script should be "echo -n 7", not "echo -n 4"16:56
mjg59slangasek: (breaks lid closing on various HP machines)16:56
lagamjg59: "lid closing"? resulting in crashes?16:57
infinitycarlos: Kay, well I can look into why broke in this case, but I assume that the actual translation workflow (which is, I hope, done via the soyuz upload queue) has not been harmed by this?16:58
lagai guess i should try that, because i'm getting these crashes. there's also a bug report somewhere.16:58
carlosinfinity: no, we had a bug there16:58
carlosand we are trying to confirm that we got those translations16:58
carlosinfinity: if you did any change that may explain the lack of firefox tarball16:59
carlosyou don't need to do anything16:59
infinitycarlos: I can't explain the lack of tarball, no.  I'm going to look into it shortlyish.17:00
carlosinfinity: ok, thanks17:00
lagamjg59: are you referring to this bug? https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/acpid/+bug/157691/17:02
ubotuLaunchpad bug 157691 in acpid "Hardy/Gutsy crashes when the lid is closed on a HP 6710b, HP 6510b and HP 2510p" [Undecided,Confirmed]17:02
mjg59Yeah, that'd be it17:03
mjg59No clue why it's filed against acpid17:04
lagano clue either. i had a workaround on my normal install, but it'd always freeze when testing LTSP. glad that it gets fixed, though :)17:05
Keybukhalf of vmware is missing from my disk17:07
mjg59slangasek: #157691 has a debdiff attached now17:07
LaserJockan important half? :-)17:07
KeybukLaserJock: the init script, and stuff in /etc17:08
ted1A sign you should start using virtual manager :)17:08
Keybukted1: is that that thing that requires processor features I don't have? :p17:09
ted1Oh, it still runs (mostly) without those :)17:09
Keybukvmware works fine for me17:10
Keybuksince I have a real, genuine, licence :p17:10
ted1VMWare never worked for me, and virt-manager has worked well once soren sat down and made me actually read the documentation and follow ALL of the steps instead of the ones that looked like fun.17:10
LaserJockI've had the most luck with vmware but I'd love to get something faster (as always)17:11
lagated1: what does virt-manager use? kvm?17:11
ted1laga: Yeah, kvm.17:11
lagai usually use virtualbox, but sometimes i have odd problems with it.. mostly pebkac, though ;)17:11
Riddellevand: I think that's my ubiquity hacking for the day done, I made a small change to gtk_ui you might want to check for sanity17:19
Mithrandirvmware is so tedious and proprietary.  It might become slightly more uninteresting if they get their modules into mainline. :-)17:19
slangaseksoren: I'm not sure I understand what's being proposed in 213991 - just getting libvirt to support passing an additional option to kvm?17:25
megabyte405Wondering what the deal is with having some of the boost packages in universe, specifically libboost-regex-dev and libboost-date-time-dev17:26
sorenslangasek: Pretty much. To be perfectly honest, it's slightly more involved than that, but essentially you're right. There'll be a small change to virtinst as well to actually make use of it.17:26
evandRiddell: looks ok, though I modified your fix for the crash when .disk/info doesn't exist slightly.17:27
Riddellevand: ta17:29
kagouslangasek, , i'v talk to mvo about Bug #21209817:29
ubotuLaunchpad bug 212098 in nautilus-share ""easy" file sharing not notifying about logout/login" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/21209817:29
ted1megabyte405: No one has requested to move them?17:29
ted1megabyte405: But, I'm pretty sure with the ASIO MIR approved on getting the Abiword one finalized, they'd come into main too as they're dependencies of ASIO17:30
evandRiddell: thanks for the fixes, much appreciated.17:30
megabyte405ted1: OK - we got a tentative "ok" on libasio-dev (Depends on abiword getting updated, which seems pretty likely at this point) which depends on those, does that mean tey'd come in?17:30
kagoui don't know if we should patch nautilus-share or if we should patch samba+libpam-smbpass for nautification17:30
megabyte405ted1: ah, great, you answered my question before I finished typing it :)17:30
ted1megabyte405: Heh, yeah.  How are the Abiword packages coming along?17:31
megabyte405ted1: great, I am about to upload a new one that has the tcp backend (read: libasio-dev) enabled, which should put them basically in release form17:31
LaserJockmegabyte405: what about that scrolling issue?17:32
megabyte405Just put up the MIR for libwv-1.2 which I'm hoping should be straightforward, since it's just a library we stopped copying and pasting into the source tarball17:32
LaserJockI get something quite similar in Firefox soemtimes17:32
megabyte405LaserJock:  I am thinking that is abiword showing a bug in Ubuntu (uneducated guess is X), since Martin, another Abi dev, doesn't get it in Fedora, I didn't patch that part of the code in the package, and I don't see it in Windows either17:32
slangasekcody-somerville: merged, and rebuild started17:33
megabyte405LaserJock: and your comment adds credence to my suspicion.  For what it's worth, I had to scroll quite fast to trigger it - certainly annoying, but not a show stopper.17:33
slangasekKeybuk: yes, I was tickled to see the dolt announcement :)17:34
slangasekKeybuk: unfortunately, so far it only handles "compile", not "link", so the better part of the work is still to be done :)17:34
slangasekkagou: that wasn't me, just the network bouncing my connection, but hello :)17:35
Keybukslangasek: heh17:38
ograYou might want to run `apt-get -f install' to correct these.17:39
ograThe following packages have unmet dependencies:17:39
ogra  udev: Conflicts: volumeid but 117-4ubuntu2 is installed17:39
ograE: Unmet dependencies. Try using -f.17:39
* ogra just tried to set up a pbuilder17:40
mjg59slangasek: Did you see my poke?17:40
Keybukogra: hmm, I saw that in my early testing17:40
Keybukif you were setting up a pbuilder, why would volumeid be installed?17:41
ograno idea17:41
ograi installed pbuilder and ran sudo pbuilder create17:42
ograno fancy settings or so17:42
Keybukit's Priority: important17:42
Keybukand Task: minimal17:42
KeybukI wonder whether that means debootstrap drags it in?17:42
ograthat would be it17:42
slangasekmjg59: patch in #157691> this is definitely correct for all intel/ati/radeon systems?17:43
sorenIf you don't pass --variant=buildd to debootstrap, yes, it grabs Priority: important.17:44
slangaseksoren: yeah, the libvirt change looks ok then17:44
mjg59slangasek: It's what I actually meant to do the first time, I misread the spec17:44
* ogra wonders how to configure this funny touchpad on teh new lappie 17:44
sorenslangasek: Thanks very much.17:44
Keybukogra: should fix itself next time the publisher thuds then17:44
megabyte405Is Martin Pitt here?17:45
ograKeybuk, i have ülenty other pbuilders so i personally dont mind ...17:45
slangasekmjg59: oh, well, if it's the /spec/, then no possible harm can come from following it, right? ;)17:45
mjg59megabyte405: He's at a conference today17:45
ogramegabyte405, he's at a conference17:45
mjg59slangasek: Oh, potential for failure and misery, but in principle it's the safest of the options17:45
megabyte405ah - well he just commented on an MIR we need for abiword :)17:45
slangasekmjg59: ok, let's get it in and keep an eye out for regressions17:46
mjg59slangasek: If you could upload that, that would be great17:46
slangasekright, grabbing17:47
ogrageez vbox on this new laptop is faster than native ubuntu on my old one17:48
=== Mez is now known as Floodbot5
slangasekmjg59: uploaded17:51
=== Floodbot5 is now known as Mez
mjg59slangasek: Thanks!17:53
\shasac, well, I could reproduce the crash of flash this morning on the i386 desktop, but I tried it now with amd64 .. and this works like a charm, using pulse17:57
infinityasac / carlos : translation mirror stuff fixed-ish.  Should be able to find firefox-3.0 in 20080410 now.17:58
carlosinfinity: cool, thanks17:59
infinitycarlos: So, to be clear, that's not used by rosetta anywhere, right?  You just use it as a backup/verification source?18:00
infinitycarlos: Actual imports are done via soyuz uploads, I hope...?18:00
carlosinfinity: right18:00
carlosinfinity: yeah18:00
infinitycarlos: Kay.  Is there still value in having the backup/verification?18:00
carloswell, in this case was useful ;-)18:00
infinitycarlos: If there is, we should get it moved to ~ubuntu-archive, so poor lamont can stop owning it. :)18:00
carlosbut I think that I'm the only one using it18:01
infinitycarlos: Well, I'm happy to either ask the distro guys to take ownership of it in ~ubuntu-archive, or kill it off completely, I just don't want lamont maintaining it for another 3 years. :)18:02
=== ogasawara__ is now known as ogasawara
lamontinfinity: I don't maintain it. :-)18:02
\shinfinity, rock...thx for the wine p-a-s entry...looks like that YokoZar and I will get more bug reports for wine on lpia now :)18:02
carlosinfinity: let me check with jtv and danilo and I will tell you what to do18:03
infinitylamont: That was kinda my point. :)18:03
lamontit's currently maintained through the process of "malevolent neglect"18:03
Nafallohello everyone I didn't say hi to :-)18:04
cody-somervilleslangasek, It appears the cds are still obese!18:12
=== slangasek changed the topic of #ubuntu-devel to: Archive: frozen like a penguin paradise | Ubuntu 8.04 LTS Beta released | Development of Ubuntu (not support, not application development on Ubuntu) | #ubuntu for support and general discussion for dapper/edgy/feisty/gutsy, #ubuntu+1 for hardy | #ubuntu-motu for getting involved in development | http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment | See #ubuntu-bugs for http://wiki.ubuntu.com/HelpingWithBugs
cody-somervilleAh, the alternative cds are fine but the live cds are not.18:13
slangasekcody-somerville: due to the same package set as before?  I may have failed to account for propagation delays18:13
cody-somervilleslangasek, let me check18:18
cody-somervilleslangasek, right. No change between manifests.18:19
xhakermjg59: Help me out. I got /sys/devices/virtual/backlight/acpi_video{0,1}18:32
xhakermjg59: i guess there was supposed to be only one there. I am investigating why my dell changes brightness 2 steps at a time18:33
bobboShould fixes for bugs like Bug #184084 be left to Intrepid seeing as we are in Final Freeze now?18:47
ubotuLaunchpad bug 184084 in checky "Extension description mentions Iceweasel/Icedove/Iceape" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/18408418:47
lamontjdstrand/kees: Apr 10 08:15:39 mix kernel: [36454.520112] audit(1207836939.319:6): type=1503 operation="inode_permission" requested_mask="::rw" denied_mask="::rw" name="/dev/tty" pid=3491 profile="/usr/sbin/cupsd" namespace="default"18:49
lamontoh, wait.  my bad.18:49
lamontI think that means it's not asking for mmap anymore18:49
=== davmor2_away is now known as davmor2
keescooklamont: righto!  it just wants to spew to the tty.18:54
* lamont looks at the actual logfile to make sure that was all18:54
slytherinhi, is the 'gnome panel freezes when clock applet is clicked' occurring again for anyone?18:55
slangaseklamont: hey, has anyone prodded you about helping to get more info for bug #81242?18:55
ubotuLaunchpad bug 81242 in postfix "postfix-ldap is linked against gnuTLS" [Medium,Triaged] https://launchpad.net/bugs/8124218:55
lamontkeescook: yep.18:55
lamontslangasek: I've been waiting for someone to tell me what to do with it...18:56
lamontI just link against libldap218:56
slangaseklamont: how about what I wrote in the last comment? :)18:57
lamonthappy to switch to another lib...18:57
lamont(since turning off ldap support would be more likely to get me shot...)18:57
asacinfinity: thanks a lot!18:57
slangaseklamont: i.e., "please give me stderr from this failing command"18:57
slangaseklamont: actually, a) you link against libldap-2.4-2, b) there is no other lib kthx18:57
slangasekhaving postfix be the only thing in main linking to a different LDAP implementation would be more likely to get you shot by *me* ;)18:58
lamontthe comment from upstream is more upstream bitching about the exit()s in the code existing at all - the code should really report an error back to the caller.18:58
lamontand, as you say, there are very few exit() calls in the library today, so triggering such a failure could be problematic18:59
slangasekbut I need to know /which/ one postfix is triggering, because I don't have time to convert all the uses of exit() before release ... :)18:59
lamontdepending on the user, I expect any of those fatal logs could be it...19:00
lamontthat is, I rather doubt that there is a test case, and that upstream would say "all"19:00
* Caesar wishes Adobe would learn something about release mangement and versioning for their Linux Flash plugin19:00
lamontOTOH, what about making gnutls and ssl just be friends?19:00
lamontgnutls and ldap.19:00
lamontsort of like making it so that db4.2 and db4.3 can be linked in the same app.....19:01
slangasekthis is *not* an issue with gnutls and ssl being loaded at the same time19:02
slangasekor if it is, we need a test case to show why19:02
slangasekother apps are able to get by with both loaded; c.f. apache19:02
slangasekit's definitely not a symbol conflict error - it may be a resource contention error over entropy, but in that case I still need to see the stderr to figure out where the contention is happening19:03
Riddellevand: really my last commit to ubiquity today, might be time to ask slangasek about that map patch you had earlier and upload :)19:08
evandRiddell: thanks, and whoops.  I hadn't noticed that the change needed to be made in the KDE ui.  I actually have one last thing I'd like to try to get in :/, but I should be done with that within the hour.19:11
sorenI've been a bit disconnected (being at the LF summit, traveling, etc.)... What's the current policy for uploading? Do we ask permission for even critical bugfixes or how does it work right now?19:12
mjg59xhaker: The patch to fix that breaks other things. I'll investigate it at some point, but it's likely to require major restucturing19:12
slangaseksoren: 1) read ubuntu-devel-announce, 2) profit? :)19:12
xhakermjg59: ok, so it is known to behave like that. thanks.19:13
sorenslangasek: Reading e-mail over this sorry excuse for an internet connection makes me cry, but ok, I'll see what I can squeeze throguh. :)19:14
slangaseksoren: maybe just https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel-announce/2008-April/ then? :)19:15
sorenThat's what I'm doing :)19:15
sorenSo I need to "get in touch with ubuntu-release" or do I need to milestone a bug?19:18
slangasekin regards to what?19:19
slangasekyou don't need to do either of those things to be able to upload19:19
slangasekthough presumably if you're uploading, the bug should be milestoned in its own right?19:19
sorenThat sounds reasonable. :)19:20
Keybuksoren: I find that bribing slangasek helps19:20
Keybuk"If you approve this upload, This milestoned bug will be fixed"19:20
sorenDoes it count if I have to milestone a bug first?19:20
* slangasek hehs19:20
KeybukI think that vorlon knows about "Activity Log"19:21
sorenI was afraid that might be the case.19:21
Keybukslangasek: I will obviously have a pending udev upload soon19:21
Keybuknow that I've got vmware working19:21
Keybukand that I've beaten evand for various issues, I can test my fix properly19:22
slangasekKeybuk: great! :)19:22
* evand rubs the lumps on his head from the abuse.19:22
Keybuk(the 117-5 fixed just about everything else, I decided not to wait since volumeid had to go)19:22
Keybukevand: you love it19:22
sorenslangasek: In this particular case, I have an upload that fixes some things, that *should* have been reported and milestoned, but weren't. You want me to file the bug first to have some sort of virtual paper trail?19:24
slangaseksoren: if the bug isn't filed yet, don't go to the extra effort until the release team has had a chance to look at it in the queue19:25
slangaseksoren: if we need a paperwork trail we can come back to you19:25
sorenslangasek: Cool. That's what I wanted to know, I suppose. Thanks.19:25
Griffon26How long would it approximately take for Ubuntu to have the latest versions of libxml2 & libxslt that were released this week available somewhere (like universe maybe)? I'm a Gnome Planner developer and I am wondering if making those versions required deps would cause much delay in availability of Planner on Ubuntu (because of testing and such).19:34
KeybukGriffon26: at this point, we're pretty much entirely frozen for our release19:37
Keybukthey'll be in 8.10 for sure19:37
jcastroGriffon26: until then you might consider having a team PPA for Planner19:38
* Griffon26 grabs a dictionary19:38
jcastroGriffon26: basically a seperate repository. I can help you go through it if you want.19:38
Griffon26I'm an upstream dev. I don't know much about Ubuntu =)19:38
Griffon26I was just looking for a ballpark figure. I'm not running Ubuntu myself.19:39
jcastroGriffon26: It's my job to help upstream devs like yourself get squared away on ubuntu19:39
jcastroGriffon26: I'm on my way to lugradio live tomorrow but if you send me a mail (jorge@ubuntu.com) I can answer any questions you might have about ubuntu. I can give you the quick version of everything you might need to know about ubuntu19:40
Keybukslangasek: if I smack a package upload through the queue myself, is that naughty? :p19:41
slangasekKeybuk: probably :)19:41
Keybukie. readahead-list19:41
=== cprov is now known as cprov-out
Griffon26jcastro: I may only need an answer to the following question, otherwise I'll send you mail. Is there a reasonably easy way for users to get upgrades to packages in between releases?19:42
jcastroGriffon26: a PPA would be the best bet (personal package archive), otherwise between releases you have -updates which is for security and major bugfixes, and -backports.19:43
Griffon26I see19:43
lagaGriffon26: does the user have to build something from source if he wants to use the new version of planner?19:44
jcastroGriffon26: the downside to PPAs is users need to know about them and add them manually.19:44
Griffon26laga: I'm assuming they will until you have a binary version of the release that I'll do this weekend.19:45
keescookwell, -security is for security.  :P19:45
jdstrand-updates will have security and SRU (stable release updates)19:45
jdstrandhi keescook!19:45
keescookwe confused ourselves.  ;)19:45
LaserJock-updates doesn't have security19:45
* keescook hugs jdstrand19:45
LaserJock-security has security19:46
lagaGriffon26: well, that binary version will happen in 8.10 then which will also have the dependencies. so i guess your new version of planner will also have to go to a PPA19:46
Griffon26laga: it's just that if I dep on the new libxml2/libxslt versions, people who build from source on Ubuntu may suddenly need to upgrade libxml2/libxslt as well19:46
jdstrand-updates does have security, whenever there is a sync19:46
lagaGriffon26: unless people build it themselves19:46
jdstrandLaserJock: ^19:46
jcastroGriffon26: yeah, you can also put those deps in the same PPA if you want.19:46
ogramjg59, do you happen to know anything about "IDEACO IDC 6680" touchscreens ?19:46
LaserJockjdstrand: well, that's kinda iffy19:46
jdstrandLaserJock: we ask for a sync of -security to -updates for large packages like the kernel, firefox, etc19:46
jdstrandLaserJock: this is to reduce the load on security.ubuntu.com19:47
lagaGriffon26: i understand the problem.. i guess the PPA is the best thing you can do. i assume that libxml2 and libxslt are rather important packages, so building them from source might not be a good idea19:47
LaserJockjdstrand: so there are exceptions ;-)19:47
jdstrandLaserJock: IIRC, the admins will periodically sync -security to -updates without us explicitly requesting it also19:47
mjg59ogra: Nope19:47
mjg59ogra: What does it present as?19:47
lagakeescook: -security also gets new hardware support sometimes ;)19:48
ogramjg59, simple input event device, it even works just not in sync with my finger or the stylus19:48
jdstrandthis just happened recently actually-- I requested a sync for firefox, but they just sync'd it all19:48
ogra /dev/input/event9 atm19:48
LaserJockjdstrand: all of what?19:49
Griffon26jcastro: laga: I think I have a good idea of what's possible now. I'll recommend on our list that whoever builds it in Ubuntu also publish a PPA with libxml2/libxslt.19:49
jdstrandwhatever we uploaded to -security that wasn't in -updates yet (eg mysql)19:49
jcastroGriffon26: ideally, you'd want someone who us a planner enthusiast who is willing to maintain your package in ubuntu, then he/she goes through our developer process.19:49
jcastrobut that is rare. :D19:49
jdstrandLaserJock: rmadison mysql-server-5.0 | grep gutsy19:50
Griffon26yeah, people building Planner from source are rare. Somehow the cross-section between project managers and software engineers is not that large. I wonder why ;-)19:50
jdstrandLaserJock: I didn't ask for mysql to be sync'd, yet, there it is19:50
jcastroGriffon26: if someone is interested send them my way and I'll go through the process with them19:51
Griffon26jcastro: will do. Thanks for your help. Both of you.19:51
LaserJockjdstrand: odd, I don't think that's policy but they probably had a reason19:51
jdstrandLaserJock: pretty sure it all gets back to the load on security.u.c19:51
LaserJocksure, but that would be only exceptions to the rul, not the rul19:52
jdstrandthis is something that has probably evolved over time, I don't make those decisions ;)19:52
LaserJockin any case, security goes to -security and SRUs go to -updates19:53
LaserJockwhatever the archive admins do aftward I don't much care :-)19:53
keescookslangasek: do universe things ever make it into the release notes?  it might be nice to mention the selinux work.19:55
jcastrokeescook: I think a "tour of the universe" might be useful come to think of it19:57
jdstrandjcastro: I like the sound of that19:57
jdstrand"tour of the universe"19:57
jcastrothat was pre-dapper when I did that.19:59
jcastroI'll ping corey and/or mgunes, see if they're interested in doing another tour20:01
slangasekright, if we have a "tour" type page, that would be suitable; obviously selinux wouldn't fall under errata though, and I don't imagine it would go in the press release20:02
keescookslangasek: yeah, I'd like to find a place for it since it's been a long-standing gripe ("but Ubuntu can't use SELinux") that's fixed now.20:03
jdstrandmaybe if the release notes linked to the tour page?20:04
jcastroburgundavia once did a universe tour, one thing a day for a week, which is also a pretty good idea to get sustained interest20:05
_MMA_jcastro: mgunes has been MIA. He's had some personal issues. An email sould get a responce. Though it might be delayed.20:08
Keybukslangasek: ok to accept readahead-list?  ok, great!21:01
slangasekKeybuk: bwuh?  has it even been uploaded yet?21:04
=== Jonbo_ is now known as Jonbo
Keybukslangasek: yes :-)21:05
slangasekI haven't seen it in the unapproved queue...21:05
Keybukit didn't spend very long there <g>21:05
slangasekbryce: is bug #137234 covered by your projector work?21:29
ubotuLaunchpad bug 137234 in xserver-xorg-video-intel "[gutsy] Second display not enabled with "intel" video driver" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/13723421:29
ted1Is there a place to get an old debian package?21:30
ted1It doesn't seem to be in the pool anymore.21:31
bryceslangasek: btw, there is a sync request that's been in for -amd, that didn't make it in before the cut off (we've been testing the fix, but unfortunately whomever does syncs didn't get to it in time).21:32
slangasekbryce: I'll have a look at all those goodies today/tomorrow21:33
bryceslangasek: cool thanks.  It apparently is very strongly desired by the LTSP guys, and upstream.21:35
bryce(and ogra for edubuntu)21:36
slangasekah, that one :)21:36
* slangasek waves to calc21:36
=== IR3404 is now known as Xyzzy
=== Xyzzy is now known as Xyzyyz
slangasekbryce: so I didn't see that you answered wrt bug #137234?21:39
ubotuLaunchpad bug 137234 in xserver-xorg-video-intel "[gutsy] Second display not enabled with "intel" video driver" [High,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/13723421:39
bryceoh sorry, looking21:40
ograbryce, btw, i have a new laptop with intel card ... apparently the external output ws enabled by default which caused gnome to think it is on a 1024x768 display21:41
ogra(screen size is 1280x800, i had a floating bottom panel)21:41
bryceslangasek: I'll reply - that bug seems to be a mix of S-Video not working, plus VGA-projector troubles; sounds like things have improved in Hardy for him, but still having some trouble.21:43
slangasekbryce: ok, thanks21:43
bryceslangasek: a lot has improved in the couple months since the last comment, so it's quite possible the issue got fixed with one of our patches; I've asked him to retest21:48
slangasekbryce: ok.  it came to my attention because he brought it up (on u-d-discuss) in response to my call for bugs that should be critical; but yes, this only proves that he /thinks/ the bug is still there :)21:49
brycepeople find X crashes/corruption so scary that I hear that a lot21:50
bryceof course, they also extrapolate that the crash they see must affect all Ubuntu users (sometimes they're right, but usually not)21:53
Nafallohehe. I wonder why :-P21:53
brycethen I ask for a ''full backtrace'' and I think that completely pushes them over the edge of sanity21:53
slangasekwell, yes, this particular bug submitter also believes that "the most likely environment to use ubuntu is academia" (?) :)21:55
Nafalloslangasek: :-)22:00
bryceslangasek: btw the sync request is bug #21138522:01
ubotuLaunchpad bug 211385 in xserver-xorg-video-amd "please sync xserver-xorg-video-geode (main) from Debian (main)" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/21138522:01
calci'm so tired, i'm going to be dead tomorrow due to this crappy jetlag :(22:03
Nafallocalc: changed to summertime recently? :-)22:04
calcNafallo: change from -5 to +1 today22:05
calcer -5 to +2 maybe22:05
calc7 hours difference22:06
Nafallocalc: where are you? :-)22:06
calcI was in Houston yesterday22:06
Nafallosounds more like +2 indeed :-)22:06
calcgot on the plane at Wed 3:30PM got to the hotel at Thu 12:00PM, heh22:07
Nafallous Londoners stole +1 ;-)22:07
calcah yea22:07
mario_limonciellArneGoetje, ping.  I was checking to see if you were aware of breakage in terms of language packs?22:09
mario_limonciellArneGoetje, see http://cdimages.ubuntu.com/dvd/20080410/report.html or http://people.ubuntu.com/~ubuntu-archive/livefs-build-logs/hardy/ubuntu-dvd/20080410/livecd-20080410-i386.out for information22:09
mario_limonciellslangasek, it looks like the issue is actually that openoffice.org-hyphenation-en-us got moved to universe for some reason or another?22:11
mario_limonciellslangasek, were you aware of whether that was intended?22:12
slangasekmario_limonciell: it wasn't moved, it was never /in/ main22:12
slangasekwe've worked this out, the dependency has been moved back to openoffice.org-hyphenation22:12
mario_limonciellin the very near past you worked it out?  that dvd was just queued a few hours ago22:12
ted1So, seriously, is there no Debian archive somewhere?22:14
slangasekted1: sounds like you're looking for snapshot.debian.net?22:15
=== ogra_ is now known as ogra
mario_limonciellslangasek, so should all pending language issues be fixed at this point if another DVD is made (we've been trying to get a good one the last few days)22:17
ted1slangasek: Yes, yes I am.  Thank you.22:18
ograhmm, f-spot segfaults on a fresh install22:19
slangasekmario_limonciell: looks like it, yes22:19
slangasekmario_limonciell: want me to fire one off?22:19
Nafalloogra: I get a SIGSEGV after I Quit via the menu :-)22:21
ograwith f-spot ?22:22
Nafalloogra: yes. not fresh install though.22:22
mario_limonciellslangasek, yeah if you can22:22
Nafalloogra: upgraded gutsy.22:22
ograit looks like that are two errors ...22:22
Nafalloogra: at least :-)22:23
slangasekmario_limonciell: running a livefs build only22:23
ograone is a missing sqlite db and the other is that it cant connect to dbus22:23
mario_limonciellslangasek, yeah probably a good idea (waste of space to make dvds when that livefs is what keeps failing)22:23
stratusogra: the missing sqlite db is well known issue22:24
ograstratus, any idea if thats fixed in debian ?22:25
slangasekmario_limonciell: can I just leave it running and wait for feedback from you if there are still failures?22:25
mario_limoncielli'll check on it in an hour or two22:25
slangasek(or if you want me to follow through with an ISO build)22:25
slangasekhmm, takes longer than an hour to finish, doesn't it? :)22:25
slangasekif it succeeds anyway22:26
stratusogra: see 81905 in lp22:26
mario_limonciellwell it will fail within an hour at least :)22:26
slangasekok :)22:26
stratusogra: it seems that f-spot have no idea where the sqlite db is and guesses that the table tags is missing22:26
stratusogra: did f-spot setup .gnome2/f-spot/photos.db ?22:29
stratusis it a really fresh install, right? I assume you didn't copy your home directory there.22:30
cellofellow!bug 20614922:30
ubotuLaunchpad bug 206149 in ubuntu "The system doesn't recognize my Realtek RTL8185 wireless card." [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/20614922:30
stratusthen sqlite .gnome2/f-spot/photos.db and check if the missing table is there22:30
ograand -b ./ solves it22:30
stratusoh cool22:31
stratusprobably a bug during the build, f-spot has no base dir set or a wrong one22:31
ograsmells like that22:31
ograi still have a segfault on exit though22:32
ograbut it starts and runs fine22:32
cellofellowany idea what's up with that bug?22:32
stratusat least no d-bus related bug too22:32
LaserJockslangasek: is it ok if I upload a translation update of edubuntu-docs?22:38
slangasekLaserJock: yes22:40
Keybukslangasek: ping?23:37
slangasekKeybuk: pong23:39
Keybukslangasek: proposed udev patch23:41
Keybukwell, patch/er/23:41
tjaaltonslangasek: uploaded new lrm for the latest ABI. it also fixed faulty dh_strip which was supposed to skip stripping nvidia, but didn't since the versioning was changed23:41
slangasekKeybuk: looks sane to me... :)23:47
slangasektjaalton: thanks, will process it23:47
tjaaltonslangasek: thanks23:47
Keybukslangasek: I've tested it in every crazy situation I can replicate23:47
slangasekKeybuk: let's go for it then :)23:49
slangasektjaalton: I note there's an open bug report for the nvidia stripping thing, and it's not mentioned in the changelog, so please close by hand23:50
Keybukslangasek: uploaded23:51
tjaaltonslangasek: right, will do23:51

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