[19:34] <Serega> !now
[19:34] <ubotu> Sorry, I don't know anything about now - try searching on http://ubotu.ubuntu-nl.org/factoids.cgi
[20:00]  * ogasawara_ waves
[20:00] <pedro_> hello hello!
[20:00] <Iulian> Heya
[20:00] <bdmurray> Hi
[20:00]  * jcastro waves
[20:01] <cgregan> hello
[20:01] <davmor2> hello
[20:01] <liw> heippatirallaa
[20:01] <bdmurray> I call no fair
[20:03]  * stgraber waves
[20:03] <liw> heno, hejsan svejsan
[20:03] <heno> hei paa deg liw!
[20:03] <davmor2> hello everybody :)
[20:04]  * ogasawara waves again
[20:04]  * liw stops speaking in weird languages
[20:05] <pedro_> liw: you can talk in Spanish and make me happy ;-)
[20:05] <liw> pedro_, alas, it is not one of the languages I can speak
[20:05] <heno> so today we'll focus on RC matters
[20:05] <heno> #startmeeting
[20:05] <davmor2> cool
[20:05] <MootBot> Meeting started at 21:05. The chair is heno.
[20:05] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[20:05] <heno> agenda: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/Meetings
[20:06] <heno> I believe the RC *candidate* images are being rolled as we speak
[20:06] <heno> with OOo having finally built
[20:06] <davmor2> cool is this OO.o ubuntu5 or 4 still
[20:07] <heno> so now would be the time to start image validation testing
[20:07] <stgraber> davmor2: I have ubuntu5 installed here so I guess it's 5
[20:07] <pedro_> should be 5
[20:07] <heno> but that's agenda point #2
[20:07] <davmor2> stgraber: cool
[20:08] <cgregan> I've got an XP and Win2k machine lined up for ISO now
[20:08] <heno> [topic] Targeting bugs for testing with RC/Final
[20:08] <MootBot> New Topic:  Targeting bugs for testing with RC/Final
[20:08] <heno> we have a few items under RC on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Testing/ISO/FixValidation
[20:08] <heno> but we should add more
[20:09] <davmor2> birmingham is still an issue for number 1
[20:09] <heno> what changes since the freeze should we test extra well?
[20:09] <heno> davmor2: as in poor usability?
[20:10] <davmor2> sorry thinking of the wrong thing
[20:11] <heno> ogasawara: any kernel changes that are generally testable? when was the last kernel upload actually?
[20:11] <ogasawara> heno:  it's harder to test some of the kernel bugs b/c they're hardware specific
[20:12] <heno> right
[20:12] <heno> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/hardy-changes/2008-April/thread.html should be a good place to find things to test
[20:12] <heno> It's rather a long list ...
[20:13] <davmor2> afk
[20:13] <pedro_> https://edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/hardy/+queue?queue_state=3 <- could be a good place to look at it too
[20:14] <bdmurray> and https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/hardy/+bugs?field.searchtext=&orderby=-importance&search=Search&field.status%3Alist=FIXRELEASED&assignee_option=any&field.assignee=&field.bug_reporter=&field.bug_contact=&field.bug_commenter=&field.subscriber=&field.milestone%3Alist=829&field.component-empty-marker=1&field.status_upstream-empty-marker=1&field.omit_dupes.used=&field.omit_dupes=on&field.has_patch.used=&field.has_cve.used=&field.tag=&field.t
[20:15] <heno> finally a manageable list!
[20:15] <bdmurray> but an unmanageable url
[20:16]  * liw votes for lzma compression for urls
[20:16] <heno> I see gvfs has been updated - any good test cases to stress test that?
[20:17] <heno> you have to click through to see when it was fixed though
[20:18] <heno> pedro_: can you look at these links a bit and fish out testable items?
[20:18] <pedro_> heno: ok will do it
[20:19] <heno> everyone: please add key changes that you are aware of that need testing to that list as well
[20:19] <heno> [topic] RC test coordination
[20:19] <MootBot> New Topic:  RC test coordination
[20:20] <heno> as the images turn up shortly I'll be tracking down testers from http://iso.qa.ubuntu.com/qatracker/subscriptions to test
[20:21] <heno> ogasawara, I might ask you to give me a hand as well
[20:21] <ogasawara> heno:  np, let me know
[20:21] <heno> we have been keeping a list of Canonical folks who have signed up for testing
[20:22] <heno> this coordination is of course on-going in #ubuntu-testing
[20:22]  * liw intends to show up in the morning and start testing on anything that no-one else is
[20:22] <heno> [topic] RC and final bug watch
[20:22] <MootBot> New Topic:  RC and final bug watch
[20:23] <heno> bdmurray: do you have the pulse on bugs coming in via iso-testing?
[20:24] <heno> I think triage efforts this week should focus on looking at new bugs to spot release-critical breakage
[20:24] <bdmurray> heno: sounds good
[20:24] <heno> I take it bug days are on hold for a while
[20:25] <bdmurray> ogasawara and I have an idea for the 24th or 25th but yes on hold until then
[20:25] <heno> can we ask the usual bug day participants to help with testing and critical bug watch instead?
[20:26] <bdmurray> Yes, I was just thinking that and will do
[20:26] <heno> ok, what would be the theme on 24th/25th?
[20:27] <bdmurray> Looking at 2.6.17 (Edgy kernel bugs) since it goes EOL around then and we don't want them just closed
[20:27] <heno> we may have a few bugs in from final, but also clearing decks for intrepid I guess
[20:27] <heno> sounds good
[20:28]  * heno looks at http://people.ubuntu.com/~bryce/Plots/
[20:28] <heno> about 426 open
[20:29] <bdmurray> open what?
[20:29] <heno> open 2.6.17 bugs
[20:29] <bdmurray> right, duh
[20:30] <bdmurray> we should be able to script some states but the "New" ones require real eyeballs
[20:30] <heno> I wonder how many have later 'linux' tasks as well. those would be the easiest to 'close' (the task)
[20:30] <bdmurray> Right, that's on my list of things to look at
[20:31] <heno> great
[20:31] <heno> [topic] Next meeting day/time - the scheduled meeting falls right in the release crunch
[20:31] <MootBot> New Topic:  Next meeting day/time - the scheduled meeting falls right in the release crunch
[20:32] <heno> we should have a Final Release QA staus meeting, but the day before might be better
[20:33] <heno> there isn't much more we can do on the Wednesday
[20:33] <heno> nor is it out, so we cannot really take stock either
[20:33] <liw> I'm fine with a meeting on Tuesday
[20:34] <heno> any views on moving the meeting to Tuesday same time?
[20:34] <stgraber> fine for me
[20:34] <ogasawara> fine with me
[20:34]  * jcastro nods
[20:34] <pedro_> yep it's ok for me too
[20:34] <heno> ok, we'll do that then
[20:35] <heno> hey jcastro. did you want to ask about https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/Prep here?
[20:35] <jcastro> heno: yep
[20:35] <heno> I see you asked me about it
[20:35] <jcastro> I have plenty of slots open for sessions, so if anyone is interested please let me know
[20:35] <jcastro> and I can schedule you for a time slot
[20:36] <liw> I already have a session!
[20:36] <bdmurray> liw: just one?
[20:36] <liw> I guess I could do another, if anyone wants to hear me rant heavily about software freedom and meatball recipes
[20:36] <heno> cgregan: introduction to mobile testing?
[20:37] <liw> cgregan, I encourage you to do that session, it is good for you (and fun)
[20:37] <heno> 'good for you' doesn't sound pleasant :)
[20:38]  * liw won't be doing a session on motivational speaking, then
[20:38] <jcastro> heh
[20:39] <heno> cgregan seems to have stepped out, but I'm sure he'll agree ;) davmor2, perhaps you'll help out with that session as well?
[20:39] <heno> it often works well to have two teachers in a tutorial
[20:39] <jcastro> I can pencil it in under "planned" and then track them down for a specific time if you want.
[20:40] <heno> jcastro: yep, fine
[20:40] <bdmurray> I'd been thinking an SRU verification how to session would be interesting
[20:40] <bdmurray> However, I'm pretty swamped
[20:41] <heno> we are hiring a full time SRU QA person (see Ubuntu employment page)
[20:41] <cgregan> works for me
[20:41] <heno> but I doubt that person will have started by then
[20:41] <bdmurray> heno: I'd didn't think they be prepared to give a class in 2 weeks.
[20:42] <heno> we could use the session for a candidate shoot-out though ;)
[20:42] <jcastro> "QA SRU Deathmatch"
[20:42] <pedro_> haha
[20:42] <bdmurray> I thought the class might help generate interest in performing verification for any Hardy updates
[20:43] <cgregan> heno: my connection is slow for some reason
[20:43] <heno> I did that with GSoC applicants on the mailing list -- it worked very well :)
[20:43] <pedro_> who is doing Universe SRU verifications?
[20:44] <bdmurray> dktrkranz does some
[20:44] <pedro_> we can ask them in case they want to do the session since we already have a few
[20:44] <cgregan> please send info on the sessions...I would be glad to help
[20:44] <heno> is there a specific team?
[20:44] <jcastro> cgregan: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/Prep
[20:44] <pedro_> i think they'd need more help doing it
[20:44] <jcastro> cgregan: just pick an empty time slot and I'll write you in
[20:44] <heno> ok, any other topics today?
[20:44] <cgregan> Mobile intro?
[20:45] <bdmurray> 'making the mobile device you've always wanted'
[20:45] <heno> Mobile QA intro?
[20:45] <cgregan> heno: yes
[20:45] <heno> there is a general mobile intro session already
[20:45] <jcastro> note that aoliveira already has a "An introduction and Q+A" for UME.
[20:45] <heno> by Adilson
[20:46] <cgregan> excellent
[20:46] <heno> if there is nothing else, let's get back to testing images ...
[20:47] <heno> ah, this just in https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel-announce/2008-April/000419.html
[20:48] <heno> but I think candidate image testing starts nowish
[20:49] <davmor2> back
[20:49] <heno> #endmeeting
[20:49] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 21:49.
[21:05] <RichEd> stgraber: hi
[21:05] <stgraber> hi RichEd
[21:05] <RichEd> is ogra around ?
[21:06] <RichEd> cbx33: yo dude ? are you here in person or is that an unattended session ?
[21:06] <stgraber> RichEd: he was an hour ago at least
[21:06] <cbx33> I'm here
[21:06] <juliux> evening RichEd stgraber
[21:06] <RichEd> hi juliux
[21:06] <stgraber> hi juliux
[21:06] <juliux> hey cbx33
[21:06] <cbx33> hi guys
[21:06] <cbx33> long time
[21:07] <RichEd> stgraber: was ogra around as ogra ... or ogra-cmpc ?
[21:07] <stgraber> RichEd: as ogra
[21:08] <juliux> RichEd, stgraber do you want a edubuntu coffee mug? i will be at uds so i can bring them to prague;)
[21:09] <stgraber> juliux: will you be at FOSSCamp ? I won't be at UDS
[21:09] <juliux> stgraber, no
[21:09] <juliux> stgraber, ist FOSSCamp befor or after uds?
[21:09] <stgraber> before
[21:10] <juliux> hmm
[21:10] <RichEd> juliux: that would be great ... milk + spoons of sugar please
[21:10] <juliux> RichEd, hehe
[21:10] <juliux> RichEd, you can get is a the bar at the hotel;9
[21:10] <stgraber> juliux: 16th and 17th
[21:10] <juliux> stgraber, you are in ch right?
[21:10] <stgraber> yep
[21:11] <juliux> stgraber, i know some people coming from ch to the linuxtag perhaps somebody of them can bring you the mug;9
[21:11] <stgraber> juliux: who ?
[21:11] <juliux> stgraber, nightrose for example
[21:11] <juliux> stgraber, emonkey also
[21:12] <stgraber> ok, I'll probably see Carlos and the others on the 24th
[21:12] <juliux> hm taht is befor linuxtag;)
[21:12] <stgraber> argh :)
[21:12] <stgraber> I'm really not lucky :)
[21:12] <juliux> i will find a way
[21:13] <juliux> RichEd, can i give you the mugs for highvoltage?
[21:14] <RichEd> juliux: indeed ... he lives in my town
[21:14] <RichEd> we are a beer meeting behind so i should see him soon
[21:14] <juliux> RichEd, good
[21:14] <nixternal> woo!
[21:14] <nixternal> howdy you educational nut jobs! :p
[21:14] <RichEd> calling ogra ... calling ogra ... are you here ?
[21:15] <RichEd> who is that nixternal fellow ? some mad american ?
[21:15] <nixternal> mad? I make mad look happy!
[21:16] <RichEd> howdy ... is that some sort of john wayne imitation ...
[21:16] <RichEd> or woody ?
[21:16] <nixternal> either or I guess :)
[21:16] <nixternal> they are still both my heros :)
[21:17] <RichEd> okay ... better kick off the meeting while we wait for ogra
[21:17] <RichEd> anyone with general news / questions ... UDS or otherwise ?
[21:17] <nixternal> CHAPTER 9 HAS GONE TO THE PRESSES!
[21:17] <juliux> https://launchpad.net/~edubuntu-school-support
[21:17] <juliux> is there sombody who cares about this team?
[21:17]  * juliux hasn't time for that the last month
[21:19] <RichEd> juliux: cbx33 is listed as owner ... pete ?
[21:20] <juliux> cbx33, ?
[21:20] <RichEd> i know that Jim Hutchinson was full of enthusiasm last year ... he may add some life
[21:20]  * highvoltage is here
[21:20] <RichEd> hey highvoltage ...
[21:20] <juliux> hey highvoltage
[21:20] <highvoltage> hey RichEd, juliux and nixternal
[21:20] <nixternal> howdy highvoltage
[21:21] <RichEd> you'll be pleased to know that a screenshot used in the CMPC brochure has Jonathan Carter as the learner in grade 3
[21:21] <nixternal> heh, groovy!
[21:21] <RichEd> you can add that to your CV
[21:21] <highvoltage> what a co-incidence! I once was in grade 3!
[21:21] <RichEd> best 4 years of your life ;)
[21:22] <highvoltage> heh
[21:22] <nixternal> hahaha
[21:22] <RichEd> nixternal: are you happy with the chapter you put into the book ?
[21:22] <highvoltage> where's ograkins?
[21:22] <nealmcb> juliux, RichEd - yeah - Jim is still very active in general.  odd that that group has so many unapproved applicants....
[21:22] <RichEd> will it be available for us to use on the web sites / wiki etc or is it copyright and for profit
[21:22] <nixternal> not 100%, but it is cleaner....next edition == Chapter 9 rewrite and split LTSP from the chapter into its own chapter
[21:23] <juliux> nealmcb, i can fix that;)
[21:23] <nealmcb> \o/
[21:23] <RichEd> nixternal: jim may be a good proof reader for the LTSP rewrite / revision
[21:23] <juliux> cbx33, can we give nealmcb adminrights?
[21:24] <juliux> if yes i will step down from that team
[21:24] <nealmcb> I'd suggest Jim first....
[21:24] <RichEd> he did a presentation session for Edubuntu LTSP stateside last year ... and is a teacher ... so he's a good target reader
[21:24] <nixternal> RichEd: groovy...I am working with a local school on setting up an LTSP lab...so that will help with the writing as well
[21:24] <juliux> nealmcb, all approved;)
[21:25] <nealmcb> !!
[21:25] <RichEd> nixternal: the presention was a lab creation in front of a live audience ... workshop them all (personal notebooks) onto the server in the session
[21:25]  * RichEd will dig out the loco team news link
[21:26] <nixternal> RichEd: that LTSP presentation was at Ubuntu Live right?
[21:26] <nixternal> I either saw video, slides, or something about that
[21:26] <RichEd> nixternal: nope ... colorado teacher / edu conference
[21:26] <RichEd> gimme a min ...
[21:27] <juliux> highvoltage, RichEd will get your edubuntu mugs at uds
[21:27] <cbx33> juliux, sure
[21:27] <nixternal> RichEd: OK, I remember something about it...no rush on that
[21:27] <nixternal> hola pete!
[21:27] <cbx33> hey nixternal
[21:27] <nealmcb> next one is coming up this summer: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/TIEColorado08
[21:27] <juliux> nealmcb, what is your launchpad id?
[21:28] <nealmcb> nealmcb
[21:28] <RichEd> http://coloco.ubuntu-rocks.org/2007/06/04/ubucon-boulder-it-isnt-hard-to-run-an-ubuntu-conference/
[21:28] <nixternal> oh ya, ubucon, thanks
[21:28] <nealmcb> :-)
[21:28] <juliux> there will be also a ubucon in germany again;9
[21:28] <juliux> and this time ogra has to come;)
[21:29] <highvoltage> juliux: great. thank you!
[21:30] <juliux> cbx33, i can't give somebody admin rights:(
[21:36]  * RichEd tries again ... ogra .... ogra ... calling all ogras
[21:37] <nixternal> Sorry, but ogra is currently unable to answer the IRC, please leave your name and number and ogra will ensure to delete this message and never return your cries. Thank you!
[21:38] <highvoltage> heh
[21:38] <RichEd> it's the final run down towards release ... he may be catching up on sleep after some long coding / debugging sessions
[21:38] <RichEd> highvoltage: does your cmpc tend to hang a lot ?
[21:39] <highvoltage> RichEd: nope, haven't seen that happening yet.
[21:39] <RichEd> i'm running the april 02/03 dev release ... get a freeze more times than not
[21:39] <RichEd> ogra suspected some bad ram
[21:39] <highvoltage> RichEd: admittingly, I haven't used it while I was on holiday
[21:41] <RichEd> Seveas: you guys on in 19 mins for a server meeting ?
[21:41] <Seveas> RichEd, I'm not part of that team
[21:41] <highvoltage> I think I'll catch up on some sleep. No news from my side, I can't believe it's release time already, time goes by too quickly for me :)
[21:41] <Seveas> @now
[21:41] <ubotu> Current time in Etc/UTC: April 16 2008, 20:41:45 - Next meeting: Server Team in 18 minutes
[21:42] <RichEd> ... it was every second week or once a month or something ... i see it is now on the fridge as weekly
[21:43] <Seveas> @schedule Amsterdam
[21:43] <ubotu> Schedule for Europe/Amsterdam: 16 Apr 23:00: Server Team | 17 Apr 00:00: Kubuntu Developers | 23 Apr 23:00: Server Team | 30 Apr 23:00: Server Team
[21:43] <Seveas> server team seems to do weekly meetings
[21:44] <nealmcb> yup - in 15 min
[21:45] <Serega> /me slightly jumps
[21:45] <juliux> hey Seveas
[21:45] <Seveas> hey
[21:45] <RichEd> damn ... not much time for ogra to appear & give us a tech update
[21:45] <juliux> Seveas, btw how can i add an extra meeting for this channel?
[21:45] <Seveas> juliux, mail the fridge editors
[21:46] <nealmcb> hmmm - not at 23:00 utc - but at 21:00 utc now (was 20:00....)
[21:46] <RichEd> juliux: there is a fridge channel as well
[21:46] <juliux> Seveas, thxs,
[21:46] <cbx33> juliux, who do you want me to give admin rights to?
[21:46] <juliux> cbx33, nealmcb ;)
[21:46] <juliux> cbx33, if he wants it
[21:46] <Seveas> cbx33 as admin?
[21:46] <Seveas> oh noes
[21:46] <cbx33> what's his name
[21:46] <juliux> RichEd, thxs, i will ask there because we need a regualr meeting time;9
[21:46] <nealmcb> musashi?
[21:46] <nealmcb> == jim henderson
[21:47] <cbx33> hmmm
[21:47] <juliux> cbx33, https://launchpad.net/~nealmcb
[21:47] <nealmcb> he would be better than me for it - I just help there from time to time
[21:47] <cbx33> nealmcb, are you a member?
[21:47] <nealmcb> nope
[21:47] <cbx33> I don't see you in the list
[21:47] <cbx33> can you join
[21:47] <cbx33> and I'll give yo uadmin
[21:47] <RichEd> nealmcb: jin hutchinson ? jim henderson was mr muppet no ?
[21:47] <nealmcb> oops - yes - hutchinson :-O
[21:48] <cbx33> so you guys want admin to Jim Hnderson
[21:48] <cbx33> right?
[21:48] <nealmcb> cbx33: I'm not a member, and am stretched pretty thin already....
[21:48] <nealmcb> correct - jim
[21:48] <RichEd> cbx33: hutchinson
[21:48] <nealmcb> :-)
[21:48] <juliux> RichEd, next week edubuntu meeting is at lunch time right?
[21:48] <nealmcb> https://launchpad.net/~jimhutchinson
[21:48] <RichEd> juliux: depending on location ... but for you ... yes
[21:48] <RichEd> 12:00 UTC
[21:49] <nealmcb> oops - maybe he changed it...
[21:49] <RichEd> https://launchpad.net/~jphutch
[21:49] <juliux> RichEd, thxs, so we can hijack this channel next wednesday 20:00utc;)
[21:49] <nealmcb> https://edge.launchpad.net/~jphutch
[21:49]  * nealmcb is beaten to the punch
[21:51] <RichEd> anyone with questions or issues i need to get across to ogra when i see him /
[21:53] <stgraber> RichEd: at this point I don't think we can still change much before final release, so focusing on ISO testing is probably a good idea
[21:56] <zul> evening
[21:56] <kirkland> howdy
[21:57] <sommer> yo
[21:57] <owh> Salutations
[21:58]  * mvo waves
[21:58] <nijaba> o/
[21:58] <jdstrand>  \o
[21:58]  * mathiaz waves
[21:58]  * faulkes- waves
[21:58] <kirkland> [o]
[21:58] <cbx33> set as admin nealmcb RichEd
[21:59] <cbx33> juliux,
[21:59] <Serega> hi there
[21:59] <RichEd> well we are out of time & serious topics ... so see edu peops in the channel
[21:59] <juliux> cbx33, thxs, then i will leave the team now
[21:59]  * RichEd hands the channel over to the server guys
[22:00] <RichEd> --- thanks ---
[22:00] <nijaba> thanks RichEd
[22:00]  * mathiaz thanks RichEd :)
[22:00] <soren> o/
[22:00] <nijaba> the server guys will have to be quick today, other meeting in 1h...
[22:00] <mathiaz> Hellowww Server Team ! :)
[22:00] <nijaba> bonjour mathiaz (((
[22:01]  * owh suspects that came with an accent right mathiaz?
[22:01] <mathiaz> #startmeeting
[22:01] <MootBot> Meeting started at 23:01. The chair is mathiaz.
[22:01] <MootBot> Commands Available: [TOPIC], [IDEA], [ACTION], [AGREED], [LINK], [VOTE]
[22:01] <mathiaz> Today's agenda: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Meeting
[22:01] <owh> It's always good to know we're loved by the bot :)
[22:02] <mathiaz> [TOPIC] Review ACTION points from previous meeting
[22:02] <MootBot> New Topic:  Review ACTION points from previous meeting
[22:02] <mathiaz> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/Server/20080409
[22:02] <mathiaz> There was one action - and I completed it
[22:02] <ajmitch> ah, another meeting
[22:02] <zul> hey ajmitch
[22:03] <mathiaz> the samba-server task will install libpam-smbpass
[22:03] <mathiaz> which will keep the user password synced between samba and the system
[22:04] <mathiaz> [TOPIC] server upgrader run with --force-overwrite
[22:04] <MootBot> New Topic:  server upgrader run with --force-overwrite
[22:04] <soren> ...how does it install itself into pam?
[22:04] <mathiaz> mvo: could you give an overview of your request ?
[22:04] <jdstrand> soren: pam itself is updated
[22:05] <mathiaz> soren: there is an optional pam_smpass in pam
[22:05] <jdstrand> soren: password   optional   pam_smbpass.so nullok use_authtok use_first_pass
[22:05] <soren> Oh, really? That was easy :)
[22:05] <jdstrand> soren: that is by default
[22:05] <mvo> mathiaz: sure
[22:05] <soren> jdstrand: Clever.
[22:05] <mvo> this is about if we should run the upgrader with dpkg --force-overwrite by default or not
[22:06] <mvo> the desktop runs with --force-overwrite, the server does not (currently)
[22:06] <jdstrand> soren: well, and pam_unix.so is now requisite
[22:06] <mvo> --force-overwrite will make dpkg ignore errors about missing Replaces: when files from one package travel into another one for exmaple. its unfortunately pretty common
[22:06] <mvo> currently a overwrite problem makes the upgrade abort and the admin needs to clean it up manually
[22:07] <jdstrand> mvo: how common is 'pretty common'?
[22:07] <soren> Seems reasonable enough to me.
[22:07] <mvo> I'm not sure if that is woth it, most admins will clean up by running --force-overwrite by hand and continue the upgrade, there is not too much that can be done else
[22:07] <nealmcb> what is an example of a package conflict like this?
[22:07] <mvo> jdstrand: our current ubuntu-desktop -> ubuntu-desktop upgrade from dapper->hardy has two file conflicts
[22:08] <mvo> we are fixing them, but I'm sure there are plenty in universe left
[22:08]  * jdstrand nods
[22:08] <soren> mvo: What are the possible dangers?
[22:08] <jdstrand> mvo: it seems reasonable to have consistent behavior between desktop and server
[22:09] <soren> mvo: It's only really a problem if a file didn't actually move, but is in both packages, correct?
[22:09] <mathiaz> mvo: right - so the question is whether server users should see an upgrade fail when they installed packages that are problematic
[22:09] <mvo> soren: when we enable it? I don't see any real dangers, the file overwrite thing is recorded in the logs
[22:09] <mvo> soren: yes, that is a real error then, I don't think we have a lot of those, most I have seen are transitional ones
[22:09] <nealmcb> and people may need to get it from backup?
[22:09] <mvo> mathiaz: exactly
[22:09] <mathiaz> mvo: the reason to enable it on desktop is to avoid leaving end users in a state where the upgrade failed ?
[22:09] <soren> mvo: Yeah, that's my feeling, too. IMO --force-overwrite is fine.
[22:10] <mvo> mathiaz: yes, the reason is that on the desktop it may stop in the middle of a X upgrade and when the user panics and reboots his machine will not come up with X anymore
[22:10] <mvo> and because it is silly to stop a upgrade because of this IMHO
[22:11] <owh> Can we ask the user during upgrade?
[22:11] <nealmcb> how does the script determine that it is a "server"?
[22:11] <jdstrand> well, dpkg is careful so as not to destroy one's system
[22:11] <owh> I mean it's not like a server is running X?
[22:11] <mvo> seriously, there is not too much that can be done to fix it other than to either remove the package (problematic in a lot of cases) or to fix it manually with --force-overwrite
[22:11] <mathiaz> mvo: I agree - I just want to make sure that --force-overwrite will only deal with missing Replaces
[22:11] <mvo> nealmcb: we have a special mode flag in the upgrader, the server upgrade behaves traditionally slightly different
[22:11] <nealmcb> and how do we expect the packages to be fixed?
[22:11] <jdstrand> mvo: is it possible to have --force-overwrite by default, but have the option to disable it?
[22:12] <mathiaz> mvo: At first, force-overwrite seemed more generic - it may overwrite anything...
[22:12] <mvo> owh: unfortunately we have not the means for asking currently
[22:12] <nealmcb> mvo: based on kernel version or something?
[22:12] <nealmcb> or command-line vs gui usage?
[22:13] <mvo> jdstrand: it can be added (and is probably a good idea). I have no switch readily available though (need to add code)
[22:13]  * jdstrand nods
[22:13] <zul> mvo: what if the users have x installed with apache and the likes?
[22:13] <mvo> nealmcb: do-release-upgrade will default to server, update-manager will default to desktop, both have a --mode switch to overwrite
[22:13] <nealmcb> ahh - got it
[22:13] <mvo> zul: if he runs update-manager he gets the desktop, if he runs do-release-upgrade he gets the server one
[22:13] <zul> mvo: ok
[22:14] <jdstrand> mvo: IMO I agree --force-overwrite is a good default, but on a server it seems reasonable that someone may have customized packages/configurations/etc where they would not want --force-overwrite by default
[22:14] <owh> mvo: That's not very intuitive I'd have to say.
[22:14] <mathiaz> jdstrand: well - configuration files should not be overwritten with --force-overwritte
[22:14] <owh> mvo: Does the user/admin get fair warning that they are doing a server or desktop upgrade?
[22:14] <mvo> owh: I'm happy about suggestens to improve that for intrepid (too late for hardy, sorry)
[22:15] <nealmcb> Can packages be automatically audited for these conflicts, or are they sometimes set dynamically?
[22:15] <jdstrand> mathiaz: on no, force-overwrite doesn't deal with that AFAIK
[22:15] <mvo> jdstrand: right, I will look into what we can do about a switch for this
[22:16] <owh> Hold on, we're not talking about overwriting config files with --force-overwrite -- so the files that we're overwriting are poorly created packages - am I understanding this correctly?
[22:16] <jdstrand> I was more thinking of a 3rd party or inhouse deb
[22:16] <mathiaz> jdstrand: ah - so you think about someone that has a custom-build apache2 and then suddendly on an upgrade files are overwritten ?
[22:16] <mvo> nealmcb: there is a conflicts-checker script in development
[22:16] <nealmcb> :-)
[22:16] <jdstrand> mathiaz: exactly
[22:16] <soren> mvo: I'm not sure what --force-overwrite should force other than missing Replaces: ?
[22:16] <mathiaz> jdstrand: ok - I'd say that if you build your own apache2 deb , then you'd probably test the upgrade
[22:17] <mathiaz> jdstrand: and not blindly dist-upgrade
[22:17] <jdstrand> ideally, yes
[22:17] <soren> mvo: You seem to be suggesting there's another situation that that switch makes dpkg override (or force or whatever you want to call it)?
[22:17] <jdstrand> I am just erring on the side of caution-- I agree it is a good default
[22:17] <mvo> soren: you are the dpkg maintainer ;) I don't know of anything else too
[22:17] <soren> mvo: Ok, good. I was trying to think of one, but couldn't :)
[22:17] <zul> jdstrand: if you compile your own stuff then you should know to rebuild your own stuff
[22:18] <mvo> soren: sorry if I gave this impression
[22:18] <owh> zul: Exactly.
[22:18] <jdstrand> that was just one example
[22:18] <soren> mvo: No worries :)
[22:18] <owh> zul: Some warning that your package got butchered would be good though.
[22:18] <nealmcb> it all seems scary but I defer to the experts....
[22:18] <owh> zul: s/package/files/
[22:18] <soren> mvo: If there indeed was another I would have just made a new switch to dpkg to only force this situation.
[22:18] <zul> owh: probably too late for hardy :)
[22:18] <soren> mvo: That's why I was asking.
[22:18] <mathiaz> mvo: ok - so if force-override is just about Replaces, it makes sense to enable it on server too
[22:19] <owh> mvo: So, if you do the --force-override, is there a log to show you what happened?
[22:20] <mvo> owh: yes, theere is /var/log/dist-ugprade/apt-term.log that shoudl show exactly what happend
[22:20] <mvo> including the warnings from dpkg aobut file overwrite problems
[22:20] <mathiaz> mvo: so it's a +1 for me
[22:20] <owh> mvo: Well, then we can support them when they run into problems. +1
[22:20] <nealmcb> this is force-overwrite, right?  not force-override?
[22:20] <nijaba> I think +1 if we document this in the release notes
[22:20] <owh> I agree with nijaba
[22:21] <mvo> *cough* yes, --force-overwrite
[22:21]  * faulkes- does as well
[22:21] <soren> mvo: I think this is kind of like apport in some sense. We keep it enabled for most of the dev cycle to iron out the creases and disable it for the final release to reduce noise we can't do much about anyway.
[22:21]  * mvo nods
[22:21] <mvo> ok, thanks a lot for the feedback!
[22:21] <soren> THanks for upgrading our servers!
[22:21] <soren> :)
[22:21] <mathiaz> you're welcome mvo :)
[22:21] <owh> mvo: Thanks for the work :)
[22:21]  * nijaba hugs mvo
[22:22] <mathiaz> Let's move on
[22:22] <mathiaz> [TOPIC] Review high priority bugs related to the Server Team
[22:22] <MootBot> New Topic:  Review high priority bugs related to the Server Team
[22:22]  * nealmcb hopes the editors can overwrite the override with overwrites ....
[22:22] <mathiaz> so - rc is around the corner
[22:22]  * faulkes- underwrites nealmcb
[22:22] <mathiaz> ie - tomorrow :D
[22:22] <nijaba> mathiaz: no, delayed to friday
[22:22] <zul> mathiaz: friday now
[22:23] <mathiaz> and final will be there next week
[22:23] <mathiaz> nijaba: ok
[22:23] <mathiaz> dendrobates wants to know if anyone came across bugs that should be targeted for 8.04
[22:23] <mathiaz> make sure that they're milestoned in LP
[22:24]  * soren goes to file bugs..
[22:24] <owh> ROTFL
[22:24] <nijaba> there are a few people reporting issues with kvm under heavy load.  Did we test this enough?
[22:25] <mathiaz> nijaba: well - I'm using kvm to do my iso testing
[22:25] <kirkland> nijaba: issues with vm clients, or the server?
[22:25] <mathiaz> I ran into a couple of issue
[22:25] <soren> nijaba: Hard to say, really.
[22:25] <nijaba> server getting a lot of traffic
[22:25] <mathiaz> soren: sometimes when the guest reboots kvm dies
[22:25] <soren> nijaba: I have a few instances running "stress --hdd 3 --io 3 --cpu 3" and they're all happy.
[22:26] <nijaba> soren: what about testing with apache for example?
[22:26] <soren> nijaba: I'm not so much as it's slowing my machine down, but hey... that's what you get for torturing your dev box like that.
[22:26] <jdstrand> mathiaz: really? I have never seen that
[22:27] <soren> mathiaz: Sounds rather suboptimal. I trust you have a bug number for me? :)
[22:27] <mathiaz> jdstrand: yop - happened a couple of times today
[22:27] <mathiaz> soren: I was about to ask where I should look for more information
[22:27] <owh> mathiaz: LP :_)
[22:27] <nijaba> mathiaz: the test you did with dovecot, they were under kvm?
[22:27] <mathiaz> and right now three of my guests are sutck on 'Booting from hard drive'
[22:28] <mathiaz> after the install
[22:28] <mathiaz> nijaba: at first they were under kvm
[22:28] <mathiaz> nijaba: then I moved to real hardware
[22:28] <nijaba> mathiaz: so I guess this qualifies to kvm stress testing...
[22:29] <mathiaz> I've also come accross some issue with networking - when I add six guests running at the same time, bringing a 7th up - its networking would not work
[22:29] <mathiaz> nijaba: right - that's one sort of stress testing
[22:29] <kirkland> mathiaz: what are their netmasks?
[22:29] <mathiaz> kirkland: /24
[22:30] <jdstrand> mathiaz: we talked about the networking-- it may be bridge related
[22:30] <jdstrand> I've not seen it
[22:30] <kirkland> mathiaz: hrm, that's not it then ;-)
[22:30] <mathiaz> I ran in these issues over the last weeks - but was chasing down other bugs - so I haven't taken the time to debug the issue
[22:30] <jdstrand> mathiaz, soren: that said, I believe kees uses a bridged network, and he had 10 vms running concurrently yesterday
[22:30] <mathiaz> soren: I've also seen libvirtd dying when I tried to load 5-10 guests at the same time IIRC
[22:31] <mathiaz> jdstrand: OTOH the networking issue may be related to a dhcp configuration I've fixed today on my network
[22:32] <owh> mathiaz: There would be some logs for the DHCP server to show that perhaps?
[22:32] <mathiaz> so - make sure that bugs that are important are milestoned for hardy
[22:33] <mathiaz> and if don't have permission to milestone them, msg me or dendrobates or another member of ubuntu-dev so that we can take a look at it
[22:33] <mathiaz> we'd better spend some time looking at a bug rather than having one splipping unoticed in final
[22:33] <soren> mathiaz: Dude, you need to tell me these things! :)
[22:34] <soren> jdstrand: Yeah, I've had ~10 running at the same time too. :/
[22:34] <mathiaz> soren: yes - I just hadn't taken the time to start debugging it
[22:35] <nealmcb> soren: we thought the virtualization specialist was already virtually present on all machines....
[22:35] <soren> nealmcb: I may very well be..
[22:35] <nealmcb> lol
[22:35] <soren> But admitting to it would blow my cover.
[22:35] <faulkes-> sudo apt-get install soren
[22:36] <owh> For those interested, I just jumped through the roof with a thunderclap right outside my window.
[22:36] <soren> boom!
[22:36] <nijaba> soren is watching you
[22:36]  * jdstrand peeks inside his vms looking for soren
[22:36] <mathiaz> so let's stop chasing soren in ours vms and move on
[22:36] <owh> jdstrand: You know the little man with the hammer? - it's soren :)
[22:36] <nealmcb> deep, below the microcode....
[22:36]  * jdstrand actually likes thinking soren is inside my vms-- just a click away!
[22:36] <mathiaz> [TOPIC] Ubuntu Documentation Portal
[22:37] <MootBot> New Topic:  Ubuntu Documentation Portal
[22:37] <soren> This is getting out of hand..
[22:37] <mathiaz> kirkland: what's your brilliant idea ?
[22:37] <soren> :)
[22:37] <faulkes-> the stalker becomes the stalkee
[22:37] <kirkland> mathiaz: http://people.ubuntu.com/~kirkland/
[22:37] <kirkland> mathiaz: it's using Google's Custom Search Engine technology
[22:37] <nijaba> This is great stuff !
[22:37] <kirkland> mathiaz: I've listed about a dozen ubuntu/launchpad/etc related websites which are given priority when doing a global Google search of the web
[22:38] <kirkland> mathiaz: furthermore, once you have hits, you can refine your results
[22:38] <owh> kirkland: I like when you search for 'samba', you get some google ads on the side :)
[22:38] <kirkland> owh: for $100/year, you can pay google to remove the ads
[22:38] <kirkland> owh: i'd think Canonical might do so, if we decide this is generally useful
[22:38] <owh> kirkland: Me personally, or the search provider?
[22:39] <kirkland> i thought about coughing it up myself
[22:39] <kirkland> but figured i'd see if Canonical might first ;-)
[22:39] <kirkland> mathiaz: now the cool part....
[22:39] <kirkland> mathiaz: is in the "Refinements"
[22:39] <faulkes-> I should note, I'm about half-way through a rewrite of the forum code so it provides dropdown -> jump to ability for the forum-stats stuff
[22:39] <kirkland> mathiaz: once you have hits, you can click the little links over the hits and only search certain documentation providers
[22:39] <owh> Ooh, nice.
[22:39]  * faulkes- has been swamped with work lately though
[22:39] <sommer> that is sweet!
[22:40] <kirkland> there's a logical order that i've defined there
[22:40] <kirkland> which is what I believe to be ordered from most-authoritative/informative
[22:40] <kirkland> acutally, "authoritative" isn't the right word....
[22:40] <kirkland> Manuals > Official Docs > Wiki Docs > Answers > Forums > Lists > Bugs > Code
[22:40] <owh> WFM
[22:40] <kirkland> i generally start with manpages/infopages
[22:40] <kirkland> then official documentation
[22:41] <kirkland> then wikis/community docs
[22:41] <kirkland> then Launchpad answers
[22:41] <kirkland> then forums
[22:41] <kirkland> then mailing lists
[22:41] <kirkland> at which point, Launchpad Bugs are probably next
[22:41] <kirkland> and finally, down into the Source Code
[22:41] <nealmcb> cool - seems like bugs might be higher
[22:41] <kirkland> there are two weaknesses, currently, as I see it....
[22:41] <owh> kirkland: Can you add packages as such a link?
[22:41] <mathiaz> kirkland: that's great stuff !
[22:42] <jdstrand> kirkland: cool!
[22:42] <owh> +1
[22:42] <kirkland> first, there is no authoritative site that indexes all Ubuntu Manpages that I know of
[22:42] <kirkland> if anyone knows, pray tell
[22:42] <owh> kirkland: No, but there is a debian package that does.
[22:42] <kirkland> linuxmanpages.com seems to show SUSE (or maybe RH) manpages
[22:42]  * owh forgets its name.
[22:42] <kirkland> and yes, there is manpages.debian.net
[22:42] <nijaba> goobuntu.com
[22:42] <kirkland> so I'm working with cjwatson to put together a site of manpages
[22:43] <nijaba> but not as nice
[22:43] <kirkland> for starters, I built this: http://ubuntu.dustinkirkland.com/manpages/
[22:43] <owh> kirkland: No, I mean, a .deb that indexes installed man pages and makes them into a website.
[22:43] <kirkland> which contains flat text files of all manpages in Dapper - Hardy
[22:43] <kirkland> owh: ah, cool.  we need that for Ubuntu
[22:43] <kirkland> mathiaz: todo?  research that magic deb?
[22:43]  * owh is just looking for it.
[22:44] <kirkland> cjwatson had the idea to use richer text/html markup for the manpages, which would be quite nice
[22:44] <kirkland> mathiaz: and then hopefully get it hosted on help.ubuntu.com somewhere
[22:44] <owh> kirkland: man2html
[22:44] <kirkland> mathiaz: and automatically kept uptodate
[22:44] <kirkland> owh: nice
[22:44] <kirkland> I'll rerun my script using that
[22:44] <nijaba> search.ubuntu.com would be nice
[22:44] <owh> Yes
[22:44] <kirkland> it takes about 6 hours to do all of the distros
[22:45] <cjwatson> man2html is a bit curious
[22:45] <kirkland> i'll rerun with man2html tonight, thanks owh
[22:45] <mathiaz> kirkland: that seems like a good plan
[22:45] <kirkland> cjwatson had some more troffy ideas, i think
[22:45] <cjwatson> as the groff maintainer I'm kind of leery of schemes to parse manual pages without using groff
[22:45] <owh> kirkland: It's not the actual app that I was looking for. I'll see what I can dig up from my archive.
[22:45] <kirkland> pardon me, groffy :-)
[22:45] <cjwatson> but, I recognise that it might be a decent short-term solution
[22:45] <nijaba> kirkland: so we should send you our improvement requests, right?
[22:45] <mathiaz> kirkland: once the man page in html are online, google will pick them up and they should be searchable
[22:46] <kirkland> nijaba: yes, please do
[22:46] <kirkland> oh, internationalization is the other shortcoming
[22:46] <mathiaz> kirkland: right - so that is a great idea IMO
[22:46] <mathiaz> kirkland: you should get in touch with the documentation team
[22:46] <cjwatson> manual pages are localisable ...?
[22:46] <jdstrand> kirkland: this is really excellent idea
[22:46] <kirkland> mathiaz: yes, you have to tell google to index your site
[22:46] <nijaba> well, if your index.html is available, loco could set it up
[22:46] <mathiaz> kirkland: I'm sure you'll find a lot of interested people there.
[22:47] <kirkland> mathiaz: hwere?
[22:47] <nealmcb> kirkland: and what about all the code - is it in one place?
[22:47] <nijaba> kirkland: actually, it will go faster if google finds a link to it
[22:47] <kirkland> nealmcb: the code is one small HTML file
[22:47] <kirkland> nealmcb: and the rest is in a Google Gadget
[22:47] <nealmcb> sorry - I mean all the code to all the packages...
[22:47] <kirkland> kirkland: i can add others to the project
[22:47] <mathiaz> kirkland: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DocumentationTeam
[22:47] <kirkland> nealmcb: oh
[22:47] <nijaba> kirkland: talking to yourself?
[22:48] <mathiaz> so let's move on
[22:48] <kirkland> mathiaz: okay, thanks.
[22:48]  * nealmcb cheers for kirkland
[22:48] <owh> kirkland: Dunno if you saw my question earlier. Can you add a link to "Packages" there too?
[22:48] <mathiaz> kirkland: great work BTW ! :)
[22:48] <mathiaz> [TOPIC] White paper proposal
[22:48] <MootBot> New Topic:  White paper proposal
[22:48] <owh> That's very nice.
[22:48] <cjwatson> (with regard to localised manual pages, one of my specific concerns is that I've done a lot of work over the last year to cope with character encodings in manual pages correctly - it's quite a thorny issue for historical reasons - and I suspect tools that don't involve groff/man will get it wrong for non-English pages)
[22:48] <kirkland> owh: sure, msg me private
[22:48] <mathiaz> nijaba: ?
[22:49] <nijaba> soren, I'd like to submit the idea to turn wiki howto into wp
[22:49] <nijaba> so that they are more appealig to corporate types
[22:49] <nijaba> s/soren/so
[22:50] <nijaba> it would be a nice way to define that it has been validated by us
[22:50] <sommer> do you have a list of topics?
[22:51] <nijaba> well, my suggestion was to go to help.ubuntu.com and sort out which one would be fitting
[22:51] <nealmcb> nijaba: what sort of workflow?  i.e. how to sync when further editing is done on either the wiki pages or the whitepapers
[22:52] <nijaba> nealmcb: wp are not docs, they are just a way to tell people about great features and how to implement them.
[22:52]  * sommer needs to read more white papers
[22:52] <nijaba> so I would think that what counts is not how up to date they are, but how wide a coverage they provide
[22:53] <faulkes-> I would have to agree with nijaba
[22:53] <faulkes-> I can talk all day to manglement here, point them at docs but what gets hammered home most, is a good white paper, short, sweet, informative
[22:53] <nijaba> but I think it would be a nice way to elevate some of the great how to we have and give them some public light
[22:54]  * faulkes- nods
[22:54] <mathiaz> nijaba: right - the idea is interesting
[22:54] <faulkes-> exposure to drive adoption
[22:54] <mathiaz> nijaba: I'm not sure if the content you'd like to see would be the same as how-to
[22:54] <nealmcb> [reminder - kubuntu in 5 minutes....]
[22:54] <mathiaz> nijaba: I'd suggest to contact the documentation team (again) ;)
[22:54] <nijaba> mathiaz: it will have to be adapted to alway provide a high level overview
[22:55] <kirkland> nijaba: i've some experience with this, i'll ping you later
[22:55] <mathiaz> nijaba: and as nealmcb just said, we're running out of time :)
[22:55]  * faulkes- has to head out
[22:55] <mathiaz> nijaba: right - so I think we should define what would be the content of a "whitepaper"
[22:55] <sommer> nijaba: I'm also interested in helping, just let me know :)
[22:55] <nealmcb> is this a good uds topic?
[22:55] <mathiaz> nijaba: I'm not sure it'd be as techinical as a how-to
[22:56] <mathiaz> nealmcb: I think so
[22:56] <nijaba> mathiaz: It needs to be two fold
[22:56] <mathiaz> nijaba: agreed - that's why we should discuss what would the puprose of a white paper
[22:57] <mathiaz> nijaba: I'd defer that to the mailing-list or a uds topic
[22:57] <mathiaz> nijaba: but I think the idea is a good one
[22:57] <mathiaz> [TOPIC] #
[22:57] <mathiaz> Agree on next meeting date and time.
[22:57] <MootBot> New Topic:  #
[22:57] <nealmcb> I agree that a good set of white papers would be great
[22:57] <nijaba> ok, so I'll try to push it forward
[22:57] <mathiaz> [TOPIC] Agree on next meeting date and time.
[22:57] <MootBot> New Topic:  Agree on next meeting date and time.
[22:57] <owh> faulkes-: I once wrote an article in 2003 about how to get Fortune 1000 companies to adopt Linux: http://itmaze.com.au/articles/cio/
[22:57] <mathiaz> Same place, same time, next week ?
[22:57] <owh> mathiaz: How did the bug for elmo go that we discussed last week? Bug 189616
[22:57] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 189616 in dovecot "connection problems under load with hardy dovecot" [Undecided,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/189616
[22:57] <mathiaz> owh: I'm still looking into it - haven't reproduced yet
[22:58] <owh> mathiaz: Was elmo able to provide more information?
[22:58] <mathiaz> owh: not a lot
[22:58] <mathiaz> owh: let's discuss that in #u-server
[22:58] <owh> Yup.
[22:59] <mathiaz> so next week, same place, same time ?
[22:59] <sommer> +1
[22:59] <owh> cjwatson: FYI: The other applications I was looking at for the man page to html were: man2html, dwww, info2www
[22:59] <owh> mathiaz: +1
[22:59] <mathiaz> alright - see ya next week and happy rc testing !
[22:59] <mathiaz> #endmeeting
[22:59] <MootBot> Meeting finished at 23:59.
[22:59] <nealmcb> thanks all!
[22:59] <nijaba> thanks mathiaz
[23:00] <sommer> later on all
[23:02] <Riddell> Good Evening Friends
[23:02] <Riddell> anyone here for a kubuntu meeting?
[23:02]  * apachelogger_ waves
[23:02]  * Serega waves
[23:02]  * Jucato is
[23:02] <neversfelde|mobi> evening
[23:02] <etretyak> Hey!
[23:02]  * jcastro waves
[23:02] <nixternal> hola
[23:02] <awen_> hey everyone
[23:02]  * seele waves
[23:03] <Riddell> seems like we have a quorum of council members
[23:03] <Tonio_> hi everyone
[23:03]  * Nightrose waves
[23:03] <kwwii> hi
[23:03] <nixternal> whoa, even kwwii! howdy kwwii!
[23:03] <Riddell> agenda is at https://wiki.kubuntu.org/Kubuntu/Meetings
[23:03] <Riddell> let's start with membership
[23:03] <Riddell> Serega: want to tell us about yourself?
[23:03] <coreymon77> hiya people
[23:04] <Serega> Riddell:  I can briefly
[23:04]  * claydoh is here
[23:04] <kwwii> nixternal: hey man
[23:04] <Riddell> Serega: give us a couple sentenses on what you do and why you like us
[23:06] <yuriy> hi
[23:06] <JontheEchidna> Hi
[23:06]  * apachelogger_ waves at yuriy
[23:06] <Riddell> Serega: poke poke
[23:06]  * apachelogger_ also waves at JontheEchidna
[23:07] <Serega> I am software developer at QArea. I love programming. I am linux addict since 2000. Very inspired by community development and especially kubuntu project.
[23:07] <Serega> I hope I will be helpful for it, because I want to thank community for this great OS
[23:08] <Riddell> well, you already have been useful
[23:09] <Riddell> Serega: where did we get to on the gdebi-kde changes?
[23:09] <nixternal> Serega: what are you plans for future work within the Kubuntu community?
[23:10] <Serega> Riddell: I'm stuck now on InstallProgressDialog. Looks like waitChild method is called to late for us, so GUI isn't redrawed.
[23:10] <nixternal> also, thank you for the Kaffeine codecs btw...many people are enjoying that with Hardy, so great job!
[23:10] <Serega> nixternal: to make kubuntu #1 OS
[23:10] <Serega> :)
[23:10] <apachelogger_> agreed, though I don't use kaffeine ;-)
[23:10] <apachelogger_> Serega: why do you think kubuntu is awesome?
[23:10] <Serega> nixternal: ah... that was a little bit
[23:12] <Serega> apachelogger_: I have tried many distros during GNU/Linux usage and I can bravely say that "Kubuntu is the best KDE-based one". I enjoy it.
[23:12] <apachelogger_> :)
[23:12] <nixternal> Serega: what are those Ukranian painted eggs called? I had neighbors who made me some many years ago and I am tired of telling people they are Ukranian Painted Eggs :)
[23:12] <Tonio_> Serega: what would you like to do for Kubuntu in the future, do you have plans ?
[23:13] <etretyak> nixternal: Also ask about pigs fat in chocolate :-D
[23:13] <etretyak> standard question for Ukrainians :-))
[23:13] <nixternal> etretyak: I know all about that from a previous Kubuntu member :p
[23:13] <nixternal> can't remember who it was though
[23:14] <Serega> nixternal: :))) it's "Krashanky". There is a tradition to paint eggs on Easter
[23:14] <apachelogger_> nixternal: you have to proove he said the truth :P
[23:14] <etretyak> nixternal: it was me :)
[23:14] <nixternal> oh ya, Krashanky! thanks :)
[23:14] <nixternal> etretyak: ahhh
[23:15] <Serega> Tonio_: I would like to apply my C++ skills, especially I love Qt/KDE api
[23:15] <sahin_h> Serega: We have the same tradition (egg painting) in Hungary too. ;-)
[23:15] <nixternal> heh, look what I started :)
[23:15] <Riddell> getting off topic I think
[23:15] <Serega> Tonio_: however I found pyqt is beatiful
[23:16] <neversfelde|mobi> everybody is painting eggs ;)
[23:16] <Riddell> I vote +1 for useful new feature hacking
[23:16] <apachelogger_> Serega: will you eventually try to help upstream implement a generic codec installation for phonon in KDE 4?
[23:16] <Tonio_> +1 for me too, based on great work on kaffeine ;)
[23:16] <Serega> apachelogger_: lovely
[23:16] <Serega> :)
[23:16] <nixternal> +1
[23:16] <kwwii> +1 from me as well, sounds like a very motivated person
[23:16] <nixternal> no doubt
[23:16] <Tonio_> Serega: we lack good coders so I really hope you'll continue the effort on hacking :)
[23:17] <apachelogger_> hacking++
[23:17] <Riddell> congratulations Serega
[23:17] <nixternal> CONGRATULATIONS! Welcome to Kubuntu hacking Serega :)
[23:17] <kwwii> and if you can do artwork, let me know
[23:17]  * Serega blushes
[23:17]  * apachelogger_ gives Serega a cookie
[23:17] <Serega> thank you, guys!
[23:17] <apachelogger_> welcome to the cookie receivers ;-)
[23:17] <nixternal> ahh, just looked at davmor2's LP page...he looks like my uncle!
[23:17]  * Jucato shakes Serega's hand vigorously until it comes off
[23:17]  * Serega hugs apachelogger_
[23:17] <Riddell> I believe davmor2 is next for membership, could you briefly tell us what you do in the ubuntu world and why you like us?
[23:18] <davmor2> I like the *buntu family as a whole but for different reasons.
[23:18] <davmor2> Kubuntu for maturity of apps
[23:18] <davmor2> Ubuntu for continuity and easse
[23:19] <davmor2> Xubunty for small footprint
[23:19] <davmor2> KDE4 just for the ballsy new move.
[23:19] <coreymon77> so, why do you want to be part of kubuntu exactly?
[23:19] <balzac> i'm going to get an eee 900 and put ubuntu on it.
[23:19] <Riddell> davmor2: pst, tell us what you do too!
[23:20] <davmor2> I am one of the main iso testers so I try and pick fault with every cd that gets released across the board
[23:20] <Riddell> he does more install testing than everyone else put together!
[23:20] <davmor2> this means that Kubuntu's bug get tracked before the public get them hopefully
[23:21] <nixternal> Riddell: I was going to say that
[23:22] <Riddell> questions people?
[23:22] <davmor2> coreymon77: I want the work I do to have some sort of permanence so becoming a member kinda seals it
[23:22] <apachelogger_> hm, always this question pressure here
[23:22] <apachelogger_> davmor2: what, in your opinion, makes kubuntu different from other KDE based distros?
[23:22] <nixternal> davmor2: do you plan on venturing out from ISO hell and getting your hands dirty with anything else
[23:22] <Tonio_> no need for me :) we need motivated cd testers, as very few cares and that's very important
[23:23] <nixternal> I meant to add a ;) to my last line :)
[23:24] <davmor2> Kubuntu is a pleasure to use the defaults seem nice.  I still think the Kde has too many bells and whistles for my liking over all but I wouldn't want to see it go away any time soon
[23:24] <Tonio_> if no questions, let's vote no ? +1 for me based on great work on cd testing
[23:24] <davmor2> so if I can help make it better that's all for the good
[23:24] <Riddell> +1 on lots of install testing and knowing where to get the best pies in England
[23:25] <nixternal> +1
[23:25] <davmor2> nixternal maybe when I know more but testing 28 iso of cd and dvd takes alot of time :)
[23:25] <Riddell> kwwii?
[23:26] <Riddell> kwwii's asleep, we have enough votes anyway, congratulations davmor2
[23:26] <nixternal> CONGRATULATIONS! Welcome to Kubuntu ISO hell davmor2! :)
[23:26] <davmor2> :)
[23:26]  * apachelogger_ gives davmor2 also a cookie
[23:26] <apachelogger_> *hug*
[23:26] <Jucato> hehe congrats davmor2
[23:26] <apachelogger_> welcome
[23:26] <nixternal> ya, I don't think anyone would have given a -1 :)
[23:26] <seele> has anyone gotten a -1?
[23:26]  * Serega handshakes davmor2
[23:27] <yuriy> congratulations Serega and davmor2!!
[23:27] <emma> Congratulations guys!
[23:27]  * davmor2 handshakes all round :)
[23:27] <apachelogger_> seele: don't think so
[23:27] <neversfelde|mobi> congrats
[23:27] <kwwii> Riddell: about right on that, just came out of the WC
[23:27] <Serega> thanks a lot, friends!
[23:27] <Riddell> people who aren't ready for membership yet are usually fairly obvious
[23:27] <claydoh> +1 to both davmor2 and Serega
[23:27] <kwwii> congrats davmor2 and Serega
[23:27] <Riddell> so, agenda
[23:28] <claydoh> oop :) congrats
[23:28] <nixternal> I was in the wrong channel asking what the next item to cover was :p
[23:28] <Riddell> "Post Hardy Plan"
[23:28] <Riddell> we release next week, then merges are before UDS happens
[23:29] <nixternal> Serega: ya, people have been denied years ago...but everyone in Kubuntu is small so it is easy to keep track of their work and recommend them to go for membership
[23:29] <Riddell> so we need to decide on how to merge
[23:29] <nixternal> if you are in Chicago, we are having a release party the 26th at Goose Island :)
[23:29] <Riddell> notably do we keep KDE 3 as we currently do
[23:29] <seele> for intrepid you mean?
[23:30] <apachelogger_> Riddell: you mean in /usr?
[23:30] <Riddell> I suggest we put kde 4 into /usr and replace KDE 3 apps with KDE 4 ones where available
[23:30] <Riddell> yep, intrepid
[23:30] <davmor2> Riddell: merging easy use one of the big painted eggs ;)
[23:30] <seele> is kde4 going to ship default or are we going to have another remix?
[23:30] <apachelogger_> I think, we should have a look at the developments in KDE 4.1 first
[23:30] <Riddell> seele: well that's what we should decide
[23:30] <yuriy> so pretty much remove kde3 packages where possible and don't ship any by default?
[23:30] <seele> (i dont know if we can make that decision until July anyway)
[23:30] <Tonio_> Riddell: there is also a hudge bunch of kde4 apps to package
[23:30] <seele> Riddell: when do we need to make the decision?
[23:30] <apachelogger_> if KDE 4.1 is going to messure up to the functionality of KDE 3 we should probably move it to /usr and make it default
[23:31] <Tonio_> Riddell: that was what I was considering working on before the UDS
[23:31] <Riddell> seele: since it affects how we do the package merges in two weeks time, soon
[23:31] <awen_> when is kde 4.1 scheduled to be released?
[23:31] <seele> considering there are no more updates for 3.5.9 we almost have to otherwise the distro looks stagnant
[23:31] <seele> awen_: july
[23:31] <JontheEchidna> July 29th
[23:31] <Riddell> I think hardy should be our last KDE 3 release
[23:31] <apachelogger_> Tonio_: we should get a squad for that
[23:31] <Tonio_> apachelogger_: I wouldn't consider kde4 as default desktop before 4.1 is here and we can compare the functionnalities
[23:31] <seele> i agree, but going for 4.1 without seeing it first makes me kindof nervous :)
[23:32] <apachelogger_> yeah
[23:32] <Tonio_> apachelogger_: what about bluetooth ? what about multimedia apps ? will k3b be there and ready ?
[23:32]  * Jucato is mostly concerned about migrating/compatibility of config files between KDE 3 and KDE 4
[23:32] <Tonio_> we are not sure at all
[23:32] <yuriy> Tonio_: but 4.1 feature freeze is pretty soon so i think it's fair to compare pretty soon
[23:32] <Riddell> Tonio_: kde3libs will still be there for apps with no kde 4 version
[23:32] <Tonio_> yuriy: true that
[23:32] <apachelogger_> yeah
[23:32] <seele> Tonio_: 4.1 is in july and there will be 2 patches before intrepid
[23:32] <Riddell> Jucato: that should just work, we'd move to using .kde for KDE 4
[23:32] <apachelogger_> KDE 4 using KDE 3 apps where necessary
[23:32] <JontheEchidna> 4.1 by default would certainly be an Intrepid move
[23:32] <seele> or point releases.. whatever they call x.x.x
[23:33] <Tonio_> Riddell: true, but I think we need to wait for at least feature freeze to be sure we can replace the default desktop
[23:33]  * apachelogger_ agrees with Tonio_
[23:33] <seele> wasn't feature freeze for 4.1 in march?
[23:33]  * Jucato agrees with seele
[23:33] <Jucato> er.. with Tonio_
[23:33] <Tonio_> I was thinking about guidance too, we should get it replaced with pardus tools
[23:33] <Riddell> Tonio_: Sunday?
[23:33] <JontheEchidna> Hard freeze is May 19th for 4.1
[23:33] <nosrednaekim> Tonio_: pardus tools?
[23:33] <awen_> how do the configuration files match ... have anyone tried copying their .kde to .kde4 and booting?
[23:34] <Tonio_> Riddell: what sunday ?
[23:34] <seele> ah
[23:34] <nixternal> awen_: works fine
[23:34] <nixternal> oh wait
[23:34] <yuriy> Tonio_: you're saying if a couple applications are missing we should keep the entire desktop to the old kde 3?
[23:34] <nixternal> no, config files do not match
[23:34] <Riddell> Tonio_: next sunday is 4.1 feature freeze
[23:34] <Jucato> Tonio_: but isn't guidance being heralded as a KDE Python app to be put into kdeadmin or something?
[23:34] <JontheEchidna> The 20th of this month only features on the feature list will be implemented
[23:34] <Tonio_> Riddell: hum okay
[23:34] <apachelogger_> nixternal, awen_: depends on the application really
[23:34] <nixternal> so if you have konqi 3 and konqi 4, there will be issues
[23:34] <seele> 4/20 huh?
[23:34]  * seele snickers
[23:34] <nixternal> I just did that last week accidentally
[23:34] <yuriy> Jucato: afaik none or nearly none of guidance is ported
[23:34] <Jucato> seele: can I have some of that snickers? :)
[23:34] <seele> hehe
[23:34] <apachelogger_> nixternal: we probably should talk to upstream to do something about that
[23:34] <Jucato> yuriy: I thought userconfig was (for one)?
[23:35] <Tonio_> Jucato: guidance is globally unmaintained, and technically very low quality compared to Tasma (pardus)
[23:35] <Riddell> yuriy: I suspect admin tools will be a notable goal we'll plan at UDS
[23:35] <Tonio_> Riddell: yep, that's a subject we have to discuss :)
[23:35] <nixternal> well, I spoke to a couple of other projects, and not one of them have a 'merge plan' whatsoever..they are just merging
[23:35] <Jucato> Tonio_: point. but are the Tasma modules kcm's like guidance? (I forgot)
[23:35] <yuriy> Jucato: guidance in trunk has only powermanager, and  that hasn't beee updated in a long time
[23:35] <Tonio_> Jucato: kcm modules, pykde
[23:35] <nixternal> new motto: If it isn't broke, fix it until it is broke!
[23:35] <Jucato> ah ok.
[23:36] <Tonio_> Jucato: same as guidance, but more accurate, more complete, more modules available
[23:36] <davmor2> off to bed now Thanks again everyone.  Long day tomorrow.
[23:36] <yuriy> Tasma??
[23:36] <Jucato> nixternal: sounds like Plasma? hehehe
[23:36] <Tonio_> Jucato: and backend/frontend based
[23:36] <nixternal> g'nite davmor2 and congrats!
[23:36] <nixternal> Jucato: yup
[23:36] <Jucato> bye davmor2!
[23:36] <apachelogger_> nini davmor2
[23:36] <Tonio_> yuriy: http://pardus.org.tr/eng/projects/masaustu/tasma/index.html
[23:36] <Jucato> Tonio_: ah I see.. it's been a while since I tried Pardus (I like the cat theme :P)
[23:36] <awen_> Tonio_: that sounds like something we need to look at
[23:36] <Tonio_> they also have a wonderfull network configuration module
[23:37] <Riddell> there is also one large and interesting suggestion
[23:37] <Riddell> we could sync Kubuntu releases with KDE releases
[23:37] <nosrednaekim> is it qt4 though?
[23:37] <Tonio_> Riddell: I would love this :)
[23:37] <awen_> Riddell: how often do they release?
[23:37] <nixternal> hrmm
[23:37] <seele> awen_: 6 months
[23:37] <Jucato> 6 months
[23:37] <Tonio_> Riddell: but is that compatible with canonical marketing plans and so on ?
[23:37] <kwwii> very good idea
[23:37] <seele> awen_: July and January
[23:37] <apachelogger_> well
[23:38] <yuriy> define "sync"
[23:38] <neversfelde|mobi> wow
[23:38] <Riddell> lots of questions and complexities we'd need to work out in doing that
[23:38] <apachelogger_> currently we have the advantage that we don't get .0 releases
[23:38] <Tonio_> would the base be table when we want to release kubuntu ?
[23:38] <Riddell> it may well not be worth it
[23:38] <yuriy> the current release schedule seems pretty synced to me
[23:38] <Tonio_> Riddell: yep, is that to be discussed during the uds ?
[23:38]  * apachelogger_ is not at uds -.-
[23:38] <yuriy> with the KDE release shortlyt before kubuntu FF and a couple bug fix releases before the kubuntu release
[23:38]  * apachelogger_ agrees with yuriy
[23:38] <Riddell> it would mean releasing in february and august, using ubuntu bases from october and april
[23:39] <Tonio_> Riddell: 2 options : releasing before ubuntu -> unstable distro
[23:39] <Tonio_> releasing after ubuntu -> losing users, going to the first released one :)
[23:39] <Jucato> I think we were only out of sync because of 3.5.x having longer releases, but it would be better if we released some time after a .0 release (as apachelogger_ pointed out)
[23:39] <nixternal> well, if KDE 4.1 comes out in July, are they planning on 4.1.1, 4.1.2, 4.1.3, and such each month still or will those be every 6 months?
[23:39] <nosrednaekim> I don't think that sounds like a very good idea.... It would be better to always have the latest KDe in a PPA IMHO
[23:39] <JontheEchidna> Anyone considered kidnapping top Gnome execs to force releases in sync with KDE 4?
[23:39] <Tonio_> Riddell: if it was a matter of 2 or 3 weeks, that would be different, but 2 month is not acceptable imho
[23:39] <seele> nixternal: every month there is supposed to be a point.point release
[23:39] <Riddell> nixternal: yes, monthly point releases
[23:40] <seele> nixternal: 4.1.3 should be out by intrepid
[23:40] <e-uoaphys> nosrednaekim: i agree. If you sync kubuntu to KDE releases then users are always getting an outdated ubuntu with their KDE desktop
[23:40] <Jucato> so we'll be releasing .3 ones
[23:40] <apachelogger_> what advantages would syncing with KDE have?
[23:40] <e-uoaphys> It's not like ubuntu is synced to gnome
[23:40] <Riddell> e-uoaphys: it is
[23:41] <nixternal> I honestly don't think we should fall behind Ubuntu releases though, people will start complainging about kernel updates and what not
[23:41] <Jucato> e-uoaphys: it is
[23:41] <e-uoaphys> oh
[23:41] <e-uoaphys> sorry
[23:41] <Riddell> apachelogger_: first to latest and greatest
[23:41] <Jucato> hm.. doesn't Ubuntu release 1-2 months *after* a new GNOME release?
[23:41] <Riddell> 1 month
[23:41] <sahin_h> Riddell: Ubuntu always released when Gnome x.y.1 out.
[23:41] <Riddell> sahin_h: not always
[23:41] <apachelogger_> Riddell: not worth it IMO
[23:41] <neversfelde|mobi> what about 4 releases a year?
[23:41] <sahin_h> Riddell: Ok,  mostly. ;-)
[23:42] <Tonio_> yeah, one month is acceptable, but for kde, that's in the middle of the dev cycle..... big problem
[23:42] <nosrednaekim> Tonio_: are those Pardus tools QT4?
[23:42] <apachelogger_> neversfelde|mobi: that would slow down development
[23:42] <Jucato> well, Intrepid will come out with a newly released 4.1.3. So in some senses, that still fresh :)
[23:42] <apachelogger_> neversfelde|mobi: we would stumble from one freeze into another
[23:42] <Tonio_> nosrednaekim: pykde3 atm, port to pykde4 is considered afaik
[23:42] <yuriy> seems to me like .2 or .3 is exactly what you want in the release
[23:42] <e-uoaphys> nixternal: i am where you are. right now ppl complain about KDE being out of date, if you lag ubuntu's release then instead of complaining about KDE, they will complain about other packages (kernel, etc)
[23:42] <nosrednaekim> Tonio_: ok
[23:43] <awen_> yuriy: just my words
[23:43] <nixternal> e-uoaphys: exactly
[23:43] <seele> what will the ubuntu people think of kubuntu breaking from the ubuntu release cycle. or will they not care?
[23:43] <Tonio_> nosrednaekim: I'll contact developpers before the UDS :)
[23:43] <apachelogger_> seele: is it their decision? :P
[23:43] <Jucato> seele: some care, some don't. some like it, some think it's senseless :/
[23:43] <nosrednaekim> Tonio_: ok, I MAY be able to help with that... depends
[23:43] <Tonio_> seele: couldn't kde sync with kubuntu releases ?
[23:43] <seele> apachelogger_: no, but if it is going to piss them off and make support harder to get..
[23:43] <neversfelde|mobi> apachelogger_: why? two releases synced to ubuntu with a bleeding edge basis and two releaes with an old basis and newest KDE?
[23:43] <Tonio_> seele: that would be much easier for us ^_^
[23:43] <nixternal> Riddell: I think our current release schedule is fine considering we always upload the freshest releases of KDE to PPA
[23:44] <e-uoaphys> if Kubuntu breaks from ubuntu cycle, then it will have to maintain its own repositories to enable it to be as up to date as ubuntu
[23:44] <Jucato> Tonio_: heh that will be the day :)
[23:44] <apachelogger_> neversfelde|mobi: eventually we need to apply to ubuntu freezes and ours
[23:44] <Tonio_> Jucato: hehe
[23:44] <apachelogger_> just pulling an untested unfreezed version is rather pointless
[23:44] <apachelogger_> Riddell: maybe we should vote on this?
[23:44] <Riddell> I'm not expecing a decision today
[23:44] <nixternal> it is nice having KDE out for a couple of months before release..it allows us to catch up on bugs and stabilize things
[23:44] <Tonio_> apachelogger_: that's what alpha releases are no ?
[23:44] <neversfelde|mobi> apachelogger_: mhh
[23:44] <apachelogger_> Tonio_: yeah, but neversfelde|mobi suggested to have 4 releases per year
[23:45] <Riddell> I think keeping it as a discussion until UDS is best
[23:45] <Jucato> when is openSUSE releasing btw?
[23:45] <Tonio_> apachelogger_: that means everytime frozen, not acceptable though....
[23:45] <apachelogger_> Tonio_: yeah that's what I explained ;-)
[23:45] <Tonio_> Jucato: when yast stops segfaulting ? :)
[23:46] <Jucato> lol
[23:46] <Riddell> seele: you wanted to know about plans for new UIs and UDS topics?
[23:46] <nixternal> Tonio_: gahahahaha
[23:46] <Tonio_> Jucato: then they immediately freeze and release hopefully nobody touches the code :)
[23:46] <e-uoaphys> wouldn't it make sence to just release the latest stable KDE for ubuntu as Kubuntu, and then make a commitment support the newest KDE's as they are available? (the one that comes with it is supported, the future ones are optional)
[23:46] <seele> Riddell: yeah.. there were three big UIs that i could think of
[23:46] <Jucato> openSUSE's releasing in June it seems... so that's quite far away from any major KDE milestone
[23:46] <apachelogger_> e-uoaphys: that's how it is right now
[23:46] <seele> adept, printing, and grubconfig
[23:47] <neversfelde|mobi> apachelogger_, Tonio_: I am not very familiar with the release cycle, so it was just a question
[23:47] <yuriy> e-uoaphys: i think that's pretty much what happens now
[23:47] <Jucato> e-uoaphys: that's how it has been for qutie some time
[23:47] <seele> but i dont know what their schedules are
[23:47] <Tonio_> e-uoaphys: I'd agree on that approach.... I prefer a 3 month outdated kde but stable instead of a bugy desktop, which we experienced too much in the past
[23:47] <Riddell> seele: I think printing we'll work more on system-config-printer port and try and get it to the UI you specced at last UDS for intrepid
[23:47] <yuriy> seele: adept would probably depend a lot on whether ubunteros decide to go with package kit
[23:47] <apachelogger_> neversfelde|mobi: just have a look at the release schedule of hardy, and search for freeze ;-)
[23:47] <Tonio_> neversfelde|mobi: no pb :)
[23:48] <Riddell> seele: mornfall should be at UDS so we can look at adept then
[23:48] <seele> yuriy: is that something for UDS then?
[23:48] <seele> ok
[23:48] <Tonio_> Riddell: isn't printing manager supposed to be ready for 4.1 ?
[23:48] <Jucato> yuriy: mornfall isn't interested in making it work with packagekit too?
[23:48] <Tonio_> Jucato: that's mornfall, no way !!
[23:48] <Riddell> and as yuriy says packagekit may suddely become usable
[23:49] <nixternal> I have been playing with Qt + PackageKit
[23:49] <Jucato> Tonio_: hahahah! :)
[23:49]  * apachelogger_ would like that
[23:49] <Tonio_> Riddell: packagekit will always have problems with debian
[23:49] <Jucato> um... how about KPackage?
[23:49] <nixternal> still a bit unusable, but rather nice...with Foresight though
[23:49] <Tonio_> Riddell: simply cause it'll never deal with debconf
[23:49] <yuriy> Jucato: i don't know what he's interested in, but it would certainly require a lot of reworking
[23:49] <Tonio_> Riddell: they want absolutly silent installation
[23:49] <Jucato> bah.. I just remembered KPackage depends on SmartPM...
[23:49] <Tonio_> Riddell: that's not the debian way...
[23:49] <Riddell> seele: and we should look at grub editor too at UDS, although it's mostly artemis's baby
[23:49] <seele> Riddell: well if he wants us to we will.. it needs some work imo
[23:50] <Tonio_> Riddell: it means that all of dbconfig and debconf based packages will not be packagekit installable
[23:50] <Tonio_> Riddell: sad but true :/
[23:50] <apachelogger_> seele: update-grub support most importantly ;-)
[23:50] <Riddell> Tonio_: DEBCONF_FRONTEND=noninteractive.  easy.
[23:50] <nixternal> seele: ya, grubeditor needs a bit of work...we put a couple of newbs to the test and they broke stuff
[23:50] <seele> besides that.. there are tons of things in system settings that can be "fixed"
[23:50] <yuriy> but getting adept-3 usable for intrepid certainly seems doable (the alpha kind of works, so..)
[23:50] <Tonio_> Riddell: and how do you put the mysql admin password for dbconfig ?
[23:50] <Tonio_> Riddell: you'll end p with unconfigured packages
[23:50] <Riddell> seele: also admin tools we should look at the UI, depending on how we plan to do them
[23:50] <Jucato> seele: System Settings KDE 3 or 4?
[23:51] <seele> Jucato: 4
[23:51] <Jucato> oh better :P
[23:51] <seele> Riddell: yes
[23:51] <Tonio_> Riddell: noninteractive is only for when there is a default option available, which is not the case for every package
[23:51] <seele> Jucato: some are kindof sloppy and there were some style guide changes not reflected
[23:51] <seele> Jucato: if you click through the modules, you'll begin to notice inconsistencies (well, i did..)
[23:51]  * yuriy wonders why there's no modules analogous to mountconfig and userconfig in kdebase
[23:51] <Riddell> yuriy: because guidance isn't in kde yet :)
[23:52] <Jucato> seele: why are there numbers in the tab titles of the login manager, for example? :D
[23:52] <yuriy> Riddell: i meant, i still find it surprising that guidance was ever necessary
[23:52] <Tonio_> Jucato: but yeah, having mornfall working on packagekit would be nice..... I tried, so can you :)
[23:52] <Riddell> as a reminder the specs I have for UDS are at https://wiki.kubuntu.org/KubuntuUDSPragueSpecs, let me know if there's more needed
[23:52] <apachelogger_> Jucato: too few people care about kdm
[23:52] <Jucato> Tonio_: haha if you failed, so will I :P
[23:52] <apachelogger_> ...as long as it works
[23:52] <Tonio_> apachelogger_: true :/
[23:52] <Jucato> apachelogger_: except for theming :)
[23:53] <Tonio_> same as admin tools (knetworkconf sucks as hell)
[23:53] <yuriy> Jucato: i mentioned that during a krush day. the answer was something like there are too many tabs to have unique letter shortcuts
[23:53] <Riddell> any more "Post Hardy Plan" issues, or shall we move on?
[23:53] <yuriy> which IMO is a problem in itself
[23:53] <apachelogger_> Kiosktool is still not in KDE 4
[23:53] <Tonio_> apachelogger_: yeah, but the kconfig/kiosk mecanism is still there right ?
[23:53] <awen_> Riddell: was a descition made on the merge issue?
[23:53] <Tonio_> apachelogger_: only the gui misses no ?
[23:53] <apachelogger_> Tonio_: yeah
[23:54] <Tonio_> apachelogger_: kiosktool wasn't up to date anyway
[23:54] <apachelogger_> plasma doesn't really love kiosk though
[23:54] <Tonio_> too many missing options.....
[23:54] <seele> ok.. got to head out, linux chix is also tonight
[23:54] <seele> l8r all
[23:54] <nixternal> Riddell: on that UDS Specs page, what do the user names underneath each section mean?
[23:54] <Tonio_> apachelogger_: I would love kde going gconf...... or gnome going kiosk
[23:54] <Riddell> awen_: we can't continue to support two desktops, it has to be KDE 4 in /usr
[23:54] <Tonio_> that would be sooooooooooooooo much better....
[23:54] <apachelogger_> Tonio_: giosk
[23:55] <Riddell> nixternal: people who ought to be there
[23:55] <apachelogger_> like with giofs or how that thing is called ;-)
[23:55] <nixternal> well I will be there via VoIP
[23:55] <apachelogger_> nixternal: good plan
[23:55] <Tonio_> apachelogger_: not having to set my fonts twice is a dream that may come true :)
[23:55] <nixternal> no way I can get my passport and money in time unfortunately :(
[23:55] <apachelogger_> some day ;-)
[23:55] <Riddell> nixternal: the names are out of date
[23:55] <Tonio_> as for the icon theme, and for everything...... :)
[23:56] <apachelogger_> Tonio_: that should be possible soon as KDE now applies to the naming specs
[23:56] <apachelogger_> or rather, it nowadays creats the specs ;-)
[23:56] <nixternal> hopefully after this UDS I will be at the rest
[23:56] <apachelogger_> oxygen proposed tons of names
[23:56] <Serega> guys, I need off to bed. Good night! Thank you. You all rock! :)
[23:56] <apachelogger_> Riddell: ready to move on I guess
[23:56] <nixternal> g'nite Serega and congrats again!
[23:57] <apachelogger_> nini Serega
[23:57] <awen_> nn Serega
[23:57] <Riddell> Pre-Hardy then, what still needs done
[23:57] <Riddell> lots of install testing tomorrow!
[23:57] <apachelogger_> I knew you would say that :P
[23:57] <nixternal> docs are complete
[23:57] <Riddell> anyone want to make a video for 8.04 intro?  that would be fun
[23:57] <nixternal> translations for docs are complete
[23:57] <nosrednaekim> great nixternal
[23:57] <apachelogger_> KDE 4 is polished as much a possible with KDE 4.0.0
[23:58] <apachelogger_> -.0
[23:58] <apachelogger_> Riddell: what kind of video?
[23:58] <yuriy> apachelogger_: and more so since it's 4.0.3? :D
[23:58] <Riddell> apachelogger_: screencast showing new features
[23:58] <nixternal> get popey on the horn, he is the screecast wizard :)
[23:58] <apachelogger_> Riddell: maybe we should call for it in a blog post?
[23:59] <apachelogger_> if that doesn't work out we still can tell nixternal to do it ;-)
[23:59] <Tonio_> apachelogger_: unified icon theme, but no unified theme setting :'(
[23:59] <nixternal> nice try
[23:59] <Riddell> yeah, he does everything we ask him to, what a guy :)
[23:59] <apachelogger_> Tonio_: the theme is the worse part IMO