[00:02] good night kids [00:03] byebye [01:20] FloodBot3 called the ops in #ubuntu-ops-monitor (exploit) [01:20] FloodBot1 called the ops in #ubuntu-ops-monitor (exploit) [01:20] FloodBot2 called the ops in #ubuntu-ops-monitor (exploit) [03:57] hi [04:00] hi [04:00] wobblywu: how can we help you? [04:00] I was wondering a thing or two about the way mneptok just handled a situation in ubuntu-offtopic [04:00] more specifically, I was wondering if that was a whim of mneptok or the default way of handling such situations these days [04:01] it seemed overly hostile [04:01] I hate to be a tattletale, but mneptok isn't responding to me in either offtopic or PM :) [04:02] how long ago? [04:02] few minutes, one sec [04:02] between 34 and 44 minutes of the previous hour (currently 01 of the new hour) [04:03] 3:34-3:44 (am) GMT [04:04] wobblywu: Looks like a remove would be the appropriate action there, with an !o4o > and !coc > on rejoin. [04:04] (or in /msg) [04:04] tonyyarusso, a remove? [04:04] tonyyarusso, what for? [04:04] I dont think he overreacted [04:04] wobblywu: He posted some pretty unsuitable content [04:04] wobblywu: The link. [04:05] he pasted a url he was not aware was not allowed [04:05] it's quite common to paste urls like that in -offtopic channels [04:05] we don't quite appreciate it, but he didn't know that at the time (being new, as he said) [04:05] that doesn't make it right [04:05] wobblywu: /msg ubotu o4o is in the channel topic. Not reading the topic is not an excuse for being completely inappropriate. [04:05] msg ubotu o4o is in the topic without context [04:06] most newcomers won't know what o4o stands for [04:06] ubotu tells them..... [04:06] Sorry, I don't know anything about tells them..... - try searching on http://ubotu.ubuntu-nl.org/factoids.cgi [04:06] and surely you don't expect newcomers to click and type everything said in the topic? [04:06] remove says "that's not welcome here, for reals" - if it's done again a ban can be expected. [04:06] i can entirely understand someone reading the topic and not typing /msg ubotu o4o. I probably wouldn't either. [04:06] Yes, actually we do. [04:07] that's quite unreasonable [04:07] surely the preferred method of handling is not an immediate removal of newcomers upon rule breaking? he was not aware of the rule, I made the rule clear to him in jest [04:07] Or, alternatively, ASK what the guidelines are when entering, especially if you plan on posting something that any reasonably person would realize was offensive. [04:07] mneptok felt it was necessary to repeat it was not allowed in a more hostile way [04:07] depends on the rule. [04:08] Mild things can be more like "hey dude, uncool", but that was pretty far over the line of appropriateness. [04:08] simply put, had mneptok not taken part of the situation the user would now still be in the channel but would know not to paste those links in there [04:08] of/in [04:08] wobblywu: In response to your original point, it is a pretty standard way of dealing with a situation like that, and I reckon that some people might have actually banned him straight away [04:08] Seeker`, which is quite unreasonable [04:09] i'm sure an official complaint from me in here won't do any good, but if it does, may it be noted :) [04:09] wobblywu: actually, remove is pretty standard freenode-wide practice. Specifics vary, of course, but from the context here that looks like it would be pretty in line with the network recommendations. [04:10] Of course, there are always other networks if you'd like an environment more open to things like that. [04:10] tonyyarusso, I really doubt that, to be honest [04:10] considering we're talking about the offtopic channel here [04:10] an immediate removal would be nothing less than expected in #ubuntu, but this is supposed to be the more laidback channel [04:10] #ubuntu-offtopic is not #defocus. We have standards, and users are expected to a) find out what they are, b) follow them, c) help ensure others do the same. [04:11] I know what they are, I followed them, and I made clear to the user what they were [04:11] the user found out that way, then decided to follow them [04:11] mneptok came in, threatened the user, the user parted [04:12] please don't think this is just the specific user i'm complaining about [04:12] I don't see a threat. [04:12] it's rather a more often seen way of handling by ops that are hardly ever active in the main channel to begin with [04:12] I consider "Froto: and i would have banned you rather than merely warning you." a subtle threat, although one could argue otherwise [04:13] What relevance does which channels users spend most of their time in have? [04:13] I also hope mneptok doesn't think i'm trying to single him out, as this isn't that big a deal in itself [04:13] eh, that's more of an explanation than a threat. [04:13] tonyyarusso, quite a lot of relevance really [04:13] not that I see [04:13] the more time one spends in a channel, the more acquainted one will be with the flow of the channel [04:14] I'm sure everyone is plenty acquanted with #ubuntu... [04:14] i'm using flow in lack of a better word :) [04:14] i'm referring to #ubuntu-offtopic here, of course [04:15] Well he seems to have been talking in there off and on (probably between calls) for the last 6 hours today. [04:15] all of the ops here have a pretty similar idea of what is sensible behaviour in an #ubuntu channel, no matter what channels they spend time it [04:16] if someone posted that in a channel I was an op in, I would have at least removed them [04:16] Seeker`, my point here is that #ubuntu-offtopic does obviously require a different approach than most other #ubuntu channels [04:16] it may do, but there is a still a limit, and when someone goes over that limit, action is taken [04:16] i'd hate to get into a quarrel regarding the strict following of !o4o again, as I already did that yesterday [04:17] Yes, but anything looser than this approach makes the channel terrible. We know from experience. [04:17] experience is a lousy counselor [04:17] (I know that from experience) [04:18] If you'd prefer a different approach, perhaps #defocus would better fit what you're looking for in an offtopic channel. We don't want to ever have something like that in Ubuntu namespace, however, so that isn't going to happen. [04:19] tonyyarusso, what are you implying here? [04:19] wobblywu: I'm not implying - I'm stating. [04:19] can't one do both? :P [04:20] i'm not saying we should let -offtopic go down the drain, nor am I saying links like that are ever appropriate for -offtopic [04:20] i'm saying I find it overly hostile in the way certain ops tend to react on users (especially new users) in -offtopic (not talking about any other ubuntu channel) [04:21] and my grammar is horrible tonight [04:21] Please present a counterproposal then, rather than just expressing distaste for the current state of affairs. (Chances are it's been tried, unsuccessfully.) [04:21] let's just call it stream of consciousness writing, so I can get away with it [04:21] i've presented a counterproposal yesterday [04:21] tonyyarusso, had mneptok not responded at all, I wouldn't be in here right now [04:22] so, there's my counterproposal [04:22] We've already covered that no response is unacceptable as an alternative. [04:22] how is that no response? [04:22] I responded to the user [04:22] had mneptok given my response I wouldn't be here either [04:23] no need to tell the users they'll be banned next time they do it, just tell them it's not appreciated in the channel [04:23] they're either newcomers or regulars, newcomers aren't aware of the rules and should be told the rules without force, and regulars already know the rules so should be dealt with accordingly [04:23] wobblywu: but if they will be banned next time they do it, why hide it from them? [04:24] wobblywu: how do you tell the difference between a newcomer and a regular with a different nickname? [04:24] Seeker`, because they would have had a chance of redeeming themselves rationally, without losing their face or feeling threatened [04:24] but then they will be shocked that they are banned, and demand that they be given a warning first [04:24] Seeker`, the difference is generally told by IP, identd, nickname, behaviour [04:24] Seeker`, oh but I do think that [04:24] textual warning first, kick second, kickban third [04:25] one should be lenient on new users, some sort of three strikes before the rules count thing [04:25] identd and nickname are both easily changed [04:25] s/kick/remove/ [04:25] the combination of IP, identd, nickname and behaviour rarely changes :) [04:25] tonyyarusso, right [04:25] silly freenodians, remove ;P [04:25] there are currently at least 5 different IPs that I could connect from at the moment, none of which are in any way related to each other [04:26] Seeker`, were you to come in on 5 different IPs pasting rickroll youtube links each time, it'd be somewhat of a hint [04:26] wobblywu: You have some point there, but it's _really_ hard to keep track of how new every user is when you have between 100 and 1700 users in each channel, and are in 20-80 channels. [04:26] * Hobbsee waves to wobblywu [04:26] Wish I had those skillz, but I couldn't even remember to change the backup tape on Thursday ... :( [04:27] tonyyarusso, I asked the user whether he was new, he said yes. I pointed out the CoC to the user, and told the user the content was not appropriate for the channel. The user complied. [04:27] wobblywu: but if I were to come back each time and break slightly different rules...? [04:27] Seeker`, then they would need to find a better way of entertaining themselves [04:27] wobblywu: My point is that people who "enjoy" trolling do use the "i'm new" excuse, and it is possible to appear the same as a new user [04:28] Seeker`, are you really suggesting we should just remove on every offense in case they're secret clones? [04:28] wobblywu: It might have been more "discrete" had mneptok put the warning in a PM, but Seeker` has a point about them needing to be aware of the consequences, so they don't complain about them when they come on an "I didn't know" basis. [04:28] hi Hobbsee :) [04:28] tonyyarusso, had the warning been in PM it would've been entirely different as well [04:28] However, that's getting into pretty minor points, and not really all that important in the grand scheme of things. [04:28] no, i'm suggesting that the response should be appropriate to the "infringement" of the rules [04:28] wobblywu: btw, there was no indication that the experiment had continued indefintely. [04:28] in the grand scheme of things this user left offended, where he wasn't before mneptok meddled [04:28] Hobbsee, I know :) [04:29] wobblywu: only the ops there knew about the proposed change [04:29] Hobbsee, merely trying to figure out where we stand right now (before any experiment) [04:29] wobblywu: you're effectively blaming them for stuff they didnt' know about, which isn't overly helpful. [04:29] Hobbsee, oh definitely not, i'm wondering whether there would not have been a better method in general [04:29] * elky_work remembers sayign something about unplanned changes [04:29] wobblywu: probably, and i'd expect so, but please, not around release. [04:29] * elky_work notes that this is proof of her concern [04:30] telling off a user, new or not, is rarely the best method (unless it's a final warning) [04:30] in the main channel, that is [04:30] wobblywu: the attention will be on #ubuntu, not on -offtopic [04:30] Hobbsee, oh release _is_ coming up, isn't it? :] [04:30] 2 days in the cool timezones [04:30] so making mass changes in there right now probably isn't appropriate [04:30] yeah. and may envy be significantly changed before it does! [04:31] Hobbsee, the linux kernel too please! [04:31] Hobbsee: are you involved in the release this time? [04:31] the bug that made me drop gutsy is still in there ;( [04:31] wobblywu: that being said, a proposed list of changes to the irc mailing list, so everyone's on the same page, and so people can all be aware, and discuss the proposed changes, would be a good idea. [04:31] tonyyarusso: er, yes. a bit. [04:31] Hobbsee: I can never keep track of which release/people/roles are which. [04:31] hehe [04:31] * Seeker` goes to bed, it being 4:30 am in sensible time zones [04:31] * Hobbsee has many hats. [04:31] ohh, a new forum alongside a new release [04:32] * tonyyarusso nicknames Hobbsee Bartholomew [04:32] already have a thing to nitpick, links aren't obvious anymore ;( [04:32] (sp?) [04:32] bartholomew I believe, so it seems right [04:33] anyway, Hobbsee, you make a fair point [04:33] wobblywu: :) [04:33] I do hope this doesn't become a regular thing for me though, I just left two other IRC networks because I was getting too involved :P [04:34] wobblywu: obviously, it's very important for all irc ops to actually know about the proposed changes, and to have a say in them. [04:34] but I do hope some action is taken soon regarding this issue, even if it's just a discussion leading to a "we won't change anything" outcome [04:34] wobblywu: deal with it a few days after release, please. [04:34] will do [04:34] wobblywu: everyone's watching #ubuntu and such - that's the priority [04:34] wobblywu, a time span greater than 40hrs would be good kthx [04:34] elky_work, :P [04:34] I really wasn't responding because of the discussion of yesterday, though [04:35] I didn't expect that to have gone out priority mail to all the ops :P [04:35] I just thought it was a valid point to make, as this specific issue allowed for more subtleties... and I was out of Frasier episodes to watch, anyway [04:35] but alright, i'm all nagged out for a day [04:36] hehe, okay :) [04:36] we aren't something to use for entertainment. it's a waste of our time [04:36] thanks Seeker`, tonyyarusso, (Hobbsee, elky_work) [04:36] elky_work, oh do catch some jest ;P [04:36] wobblywu: indeed. [04:36] cya [04:37] wobblywu, it's so fun to be used for entertainment. makes us feel so great and makes it so freaking easy to keep up with everything else going on. yes. so funny. ever so funny. ha. ha. [05:41] I think the guy was joking... [06:04] zenwhen, that does not make either funny or appropriate. i can joke about lots of nasty and inappropriate things. [06:05] the 'joke' part does not negate the 'nasty' or the 'inappropriate' parts === Amaranth_ is now known as Amaranth [08:10] a thought occurs to me. [08:11] i think i've found the new recruit ground [08:12] Hobbsee: pray tell... [08:13] jussio1: it's here [08:13] i really don't think we should keep logging this channel [08:16] hrmmm [08:19] ah well. if they want to take the people who can't behave in our channels, then all power to them - as long as they don't decide to attack the main channels [08:46] I think the channel should be logged, but the logs should be made public after each irc/cc council meet, or per request [08:48] Myrtti: yeah, mass delayed logs, etc [08:50] Hobbsee: so its now official. :/ [08:51] jussi01: indeed. [08:51] jussi01: echan,btw [08:51] Hobbsee: what? [08:51] jussi01: wrong channel? [08:51] oh yeah [09:11] PriceChild: can we get the alternate (or both) contacts of #kubuntu changed to be the IRC council please? [09:11] tia. [09:49] Hobbsee: how come? [09:54] PriceChild: because i'm the current contact, and im' asking you to? [09:54] PriceChild: also because i'm stepping down in kubuntuland. [09:54] no you're the current alternate [09:54] who is haggai? [09:55] happy earth day, ops [09:55] PriceChild: old, old Kubuntu dev from _years_ ago [09:58] do anything these days? [09:58] he is online atm? [09:59] PriceChild: he was with Riddell at the start of Kubuntu and kinda went off after Hoary (by what I've read), doesn't do anything from what I've seen my time on the time [10:00] team* - last time [10:01] PriceChild: a very old kubuntu guy - and that's what i meant [10:01] not seen him active in ages [10:01] not responding to PMs? [10:02] nope [10:02] he's just MIA, or just in in action anymore [10:03] not in* [10:05] * jpatrick watches hzu in #u === ikonia_ is now known as ikonia [11:41] so board of !hardy in #ubuntu....roll on 24th [11:52] that envy factoid needs updating, too [11:53] !hardy [11:53] Hardy Heron is the code name for the next release of Ubuntu (8.04-LTS), due April 24, 2008 - For more info, see: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HardyHeron - Discussion and support in #ubuntu+1, NOT #ubuntu [11:53] I cant wait for II [11:53] !no hardy is 9Hardy Heron is the code name for the next release of Ubuntu (8.04-LTS), due April 24, 2008 - For more info, see: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HardyHeron - Discussion and support in #ubuntu+1, NOT #ubuntu [11:53] I'll remember that PriceChild [11:54] grr [11:54] bored of hardy already :P [11:54] !no hardy is Hardy Heron is the code name for the next release of Ubuntu (8.04-LTS), due April 24, 2008 - For more info, see: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HardyHeron - Support in #ubuntu+1 - Come join the #ubuntu-release-party now! [11:54] I'll remember that PriceChild [11:59] Seeker`: bored of !hardy [11:59] there's another one now [11:59] where are my razord blades....... [12:12] ikonia, because you have a beard? [12:12] ikonia, btw did you get that stuff i asked you for? [12:12] why would he need a razor for his bear ? [12:13] my beard is gone [12:13] I wanted to slit my throat [12:13] elkbuntu: check your pm [12:13] !o4o [12:13] Some things are inappropriate for #ubuntu-ops. Controversial topics, which always turn into flame wars: war, race, religion, politics, gender, sexuality, drugs, questionable legal activities, suicide are not for here. Microsoft software in ##windows (Please note Freenode Policy) [12:13] because suicide is a nasty subject to talk about [12:13] * PriceChild hides [12:13] ikonia, if you responded to my work nickin the past 5 hours, i didnt see it [12:13] agreed [12:14] All ops are bound within the guidelines of ubuntu channels, which require no discussion on suicide.... I don't care how bad it gets you're not getting out of it now!! [12:14] haha [12:14] elkbuntu: no problem, I'm on a clients sit this week so will give it attention when I get home [12:14] :P [12:14] s/sit/site [12:14] PriceChild: oh, damn. [12:14] well, don't shave any bears [12:14] ikonia, sure, my email address is on my launchpad page too, if that's easier [12:14] I saw a bear once [12:14] thats fine, I've already got you [12:15] * nalioth ate a bear once [12:15] It was a saturday. [12:16] * Pici can't wait for #ubuntu+1 to close [12:16] Pici: I'm begging for it [12:16] h-a-r-d-y keys are worn out [12:16] p-a-r-t-y [12:17] PriceChild: has something changed with the forum in the last 24 hours ? [12:17] ikonia: we upgraded to vB 3.7 [12:17] Old theme was incompatible, ubuntu-geek rewrote one from scratch I htink. [12:17] is the layout supposed to be the current layout or is it going back to the older interface ? [12:17] ahh [12:18] you pre-mpted [12:18] e [12:18] He doesn't like the old messiness needed to replicate ubuntu.com [12:19] im seeing a pixel glitch along the right border [12:19] the new layout is killing me [12:19] I don't...? [12:19] about 2cm from the top [12:19] more like 1.5cm [12:19] what browser? [12:20] Could you screenshot then post it in forum feedback and help? [12:20] will do later [12:20] need to get back to cooking stuff to freeze for dinner party on saturday [12:21] dinner party? [12:21] * nalioth didn't get an invitation :( [12:21] she is having a hardy launch party [12:21] did you not get the invite [12:21] :( [12:29] * Seeker` can see the same glitch (I think) [12:30] PriceChild: Do you want me to post it on the forums? [12:35] Seeker`, the top corner has like a 1px indent? [12:36] and no, it's not a launch party, it's my housewarming and just coincides [12:36] riight [12:36] http://people.bath.ac.uk/cjo20/Screenshot.png [12:37] Seeker`: what browser? [12:37] Firefox [12:37] just checking the version [12:37] 2.0.0.13 [12:37] Hm, Mine looks fine on the FF3 nightly on Windows. [12:37] I'm running @ 1680x1050 [12:38] And still looks fine if I do some zooming or text zooming [12:38] its tested on ff3 b5 and ie7 afaik [12:39] it should probably also be tested on the current stable firefox too [12:39] just looked on ie7 can't see a problem [12:40] ikonia: what resolution are you running at? [12:40] 1280x800 [12:40] elkbuntu: what about you? [12:41] Mine looks fine in FF3 even if I expand the window to 2048x768 [12:41] hmm [12:42] Mind you, I dont have FF2 around to test with [12:42] Hmmm look in the server OS forum, can you only see 5 threads ? [12:43] http://ubuntuforums.org/forumdisplay.php?f=339 [12:43] ? [12:43] I can only see 5 threads on that page [12:43] there is something wrong with that subforum [12:43] Showing threads 1 to 5 of 5 [12:44] looks like they have all been removed/archived until 5 threads [12:45] they all seem to show 5 threads except for beginners thread [12:46] http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?p=4761308#post4761308 [12:58] Seeker`: nice one, thank you [13:00] Seeker`, yes, widescreen, i think 1280x800 [13:00] and i'm still using ff2 [13:04] hi all [13:05] hi [13:06] how can we help you? [13:07] sorry but it's not this chat what i wanted to enter ;p i do not know what is IRC?? [13:07] see ya [13:07] maybe he wanted #ubuntu-oops [13:08] he can quit channels quite speedy for someone who doesnt know irc too [13:10] he may have got forwarded to here too, his realname is 'java user' [13:17] PriceChild: Ping [14:38] jrib: Thanks, I stupidly assumed that unknownamerican would stop the offtopicness after my last warning [14:39] I have him in a pm now [14:40] and now he's gone... [14:54] yay, discussions about religion lead to spamming of troll channels :( whose bright idea was this again? [15:28] jussio1: pong [16:08] what was the experiment that guy mentioned last night? [16:08] Seeker`: relaxing #ubuntu-offtopic [16:14] that does'nt sound like a great idea :P [16:14] Self moderating [16:15] hmm, but self moderation only works if the majority agree on what is "sensible" [16:15] I reckon that it would break down as soon as a "significant minority" decide to start trolling [16:24] Seeker`: they moderate it more than we do [16:42] Lamego called the ops in #ubuntu (THE-HARDY-HERON all day off-topic) [16:42] . [16:44] hwilde called the ops in #ubuntu () [16:44] hm [16:44] ban.pl didnt work too well there. [16:45] ban not needed really [16:45] PriceChild: I already removed him once. [16:45] That was not the first warning for him [16:45] Anyway, you're probably right [16:46] 10 minute quiets and they get bored [16:46] if its really necessary [17:16] !staff | [19:12:57] <_Babygirl_> Merhaba Benle Dürüstce ArkadaþlýkEtmek Ýstiyorsan Arkadaþ Olmak Ýstersen €€€kelel€kell seldaist33@ [17:17] They're gone, thanks [17:17] great :) [17:17] (and the rest of 'em, too) [17:17] you guys work quick. that came like 30 seconds before, if that. [17:18] !test [17:18] Failed. [17:18] hrm, does the bot not like this nick? :/ [17:18] !test [17:19] do a different factoid [17:19] jussio1: it wont do it if you asked the same thing a moment ago: spam protection [17:19] !ping [17:19] ping yourself ;-) really the diodes all down my left side are sore [17:19] curious, why didnt it like my staff one then? [17:20] jussio1: Probably some of the characters in there [17:20] unicode probably [17:20] ahhh, yes, of course [17:20] !hardy | ü [17:20] !hardy | u [17:20] ü: Hardy Heron is the code name for the next release of Ubuntu (8.04-LTS), due April 24, 2008 - For more info, see: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HardyHeron - Support in #ubuntu+1 - Come join the #ubuntu-release-party now! [17:20] u: Hardy Heron is the code name for the next release of Ubuntu (8.04-LTS), due April 24, 2008 - For more info, see: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/HardyHeron - Support in #ubuntu+1 - Come join the #ubuntu-release-party now! [17:21] a different one then 8-) [17:22] aha, its the [] [17:22] !test | [ [17:22] [: Failed. [17:22] hrm [17:22] !ping | [spam] [17:22] [spam]: ping yourself ;-) really the diodes all down my left side are sore [17:23] * Pici shrugs, stops abusing the bot [17:23] it gave me this in pm: [19:18:42] Error: Missing "]". You may want to quote your arguments with double quotes in order to prevent extra brackets from being evaluated as nested commands. [17:23] !test | € [17:23] €: Failed. [17:24] curious... anyway. whatever. :) [17:51] Exteris: How can we help you today? [17:52] Hi, i have a request: Could someone put a message on the mibbit irc page that people need to be patient in some channels, because in #ubuntu-nl for instance, they leave after 30 seconds or something. [17:52] 17 seconds after saying 'hi' actually :| [17:52] Exteris: We don't administer Mibbit. [17:52] Pici, another method: PM from ubotu? [17:52] Exteris: Perhaps asking in #mibbit would be a better option? [17:53] Pici, i mean the mibbit page integrated on the ubuntu website [17:53] Exteris: We have that? /me looks [17:53] * Jovatov (i=53540002@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-95cc6984d717d838) has joined #ubuntu-nl [17:53] Hey allemaal [17:53] * Jovatov has quit (Client Quit) [17:54] that happened within a minute, and we see a lot of mibbiters lately [17:54] Exteris: Can you link me to the page? [17:54] sure i'll check [17:55] I've seen the page [17:55] Exteris: Do you mean the page on ubuntu-nl.org ? [17:55] can't seem to find it this fast :P [17:56] that might be [17:56] http://www.ubuntu-nl.org/chat/ this ? [17:56] oh yes [17:56] that's something of our loco then [17:56] :| [17:56] Yep [17:56] sorry to bother you [17:57] No, its okay :) [18:15] RaMuS: Hello, how can we help you today? [18:16] sorry i didnt want to come here [18:16] ^^ [18:16] wrong chan [18:18] Pici, you have a script/trigger for that? /helloandhelp :P [18:18] Exteris: Nope, I just type it [18:18] Pici, [18:18]