[01:43] <chillywilly> what's the preferred method of upgrading to the latest release?
[01:43] <chillywilly> someone was mentioning to be using the update agent with the -d flag or some such thing
[01:43] <chillywilly> I myself have always use apt-get
[01:44] <wgrant> chillywilly: update-manager -d
[01:44] <wgrant> chillywilly: Don't use dist-upgrade.
[01:44] <chillywilly> why not?
[01:44] <x1250> I did upgrade changing sources.list and then # aptitude update && aptitude full-upgrade
[01:44] <x1250> just like in debian
[01:44]  * chillywilly doesn't really like any of the apt front ends
[01:44] <chillywilly> other than good ol' apt-get
[01:45] <chillywilly> is apt-get dist-upgrade broken?
[01:46] <x1250> chillywilly: then use apt-get, but aptitude handles dependencies in a smarter way, say people
[01:46] <wgrant> chillywilly: No, but it isn't guaranteed to work, and definitely won't work from Dapper.
[01:46] <chillywilly> this is gutsy
[01:46] <rockstar_> chillywilly, dist-upgrade can do some funky things.  I'd recommend using update manager.
[01:46] <x1250> aptitude should work ok
[01:46] <wgrant> We have do-release-upgrade and update-manager for a reason - their are quirks between Ubuntu releases that need to be handled by special rules.
[01:47] <rockstar_> +1 wgrant
[01:47] <chillywilly> ok then
[01:47] <x1250> ok, I'm a debian guy, so don't know those apps
[01:47] <wgrant> rockstar_: You're a new LP guy, aren't you?
[01:47] <rockstar_> chillywilly, I was in the same boat.  I come from the Debian world, and though a dist-upgrade would do.  I learned the hard way it doesn't
[01:47] <chillywilly> neither did I
[01:48] <rockstar_> wgrant, yeah, bzr-lp
[01:48] <chillywilly> I've never had it "fail" on me...
[01:48] <wgrant> chillywilly: It can do some funny things. And upgrading from Dapper it will definitely cause mass chaos with upstart and Python.
[01:49] <x1250> any documentation for do-release-upgrade?
[01:49] <chillywilly> well I was not aware of the "new" tools
[01:49] <x1250> it doesn't have a man
[01:49] <chillywilly> are they both GUI tools?
[01:50] <wgrant> x1250: do-release-upgrade is all you need to know.
[01:50] <wgrant> chillywilly: do-release-upgrade is the CLI version.
[01:50] <x1250> wgrant: no its not
[01:50] <x1250> I want to know more
[01:50] <wgrant> Anyway, this isn't the place.
[01:51] <x1250> oh, probably #ubuntu-devel?
[01:51] <wgrant> That's even worse.
[01:51] <wgrant> You want #ubuntu.
[01:51] <LeandroMattioli> hi, there
[01:52] <x1250> I just wanted to take a look at that special rules that can't be done by apt
[01:52] <x1250> or aptitude
[01:52] <LeandroMattioli> i'd like to know the first steps to become a Ubuntu's developer
[01:52] <azeem> x1250: look at the source then
[01:53] <wgrant> x1250: They're handled by the release upgrader tarball which is on archive.ubuntu.com and downloaded by do-release-upgrade, not do-release-upgrade itself.
[01:53] <x1250> ok, thanks wgrant
[01:53] <crimsun> LeandroMattioli: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/Contributing
[01:54] <LeandroMattioli> thanks crimsun
[02:03] <LeandroMattioli> guys, anywhere i look, there will be:
[02:03] <LeandroMattioli> before you start, read this...
[02:04] <LeandroMattioli> where is the absolute start?
[02:05] <crimsun> LeandroMattioli: what do seek?
[02:05] <crimsun> do you* seek, rather
[02:06] <LeandroMattioli> i want to understand the ubuntu development system
[02:06] <LeandroMattioli> i'm not an experient programmer
[02:06] <crimsun> LeandroMattioli: ok, and what do you mean by "ubuntu development system"?
[02:07] <LeandroMattioli> i've studied a bit of C, Python and GTK, and I use linux as my O.S. since 2004, but i've never got envolved
[02:07] <LeandroMattioli> i'm brazilian
[02:08] <crimsun> LeandroMattioli: did you read the first URL?
[02:08] <LeandroMattioli> its a lot of information, isn't there a page like that in Portuguese?
[02:09] <crimsun> LeandroMattioli: did you try System> About Ubuntu ?
[02:09] <crimsun> in the top panel of the GNOME menu if you use GNOME
[02:09] <LeandroMattioli> let me see
[02:10] <LeandroMattioli> no no, there isnt any information on contributing
[02:11] <crimsun> LeandroMattioli: I think it will be best to start with https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/GettingStarted, then.  Sorry, I don't think there are translations.
[02:12] <LeandroMattioli> i have an account on launchpad, that is a good start, isn't it?
[02:12] <crimsun> LeandroMattioli: yes, it's a good start.  Please see https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU/GettingStarted next.
[02:12] <LeandroMattioli> ok
[02:12] <LeandroMattioli> ill check
[02:13] <LeandroMattioli> thanks for your patience
[02:14] <LeandroMattioli> what about mentoring?
[02:15] <LeandroMattioli> it seems its better to start with a mentor, right?
[02:15] <bddebian> Heya gang
[02:15] <crimsun> LeandroMattioli: I recommend the mentoring process, yes.
[02:15] <crimsun> hi barry
[02:15] <bddebian> Hi crimsun
[02:16] <jcastro> LeandroMattioli: next week in irc we're having packaging sessions and how to get involved sessions
[02:16] <jcastro> LeandroMattioli: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/
[02:17] <LeandroMattioli> hmm that's fine
[02:17] <jcastro> LeandroMattioli: packaging 101 would probably interest you
[02:18] <LeandroMattioli> of course, that's very important
[02:18] <LeandroMattioli> i dont know C++ and OOP yet, is this a big problem?
[02:33] <LaserJock> evening
[02:36] <TheMuso> Hey LaserJock.
[02:38] <LaserJock> hi TheMuso
[02:38] <LaserJock> how's it going?
[02:39] <TheMuso> Very well thanks, got a public holiday in Australia today so am around, but not doing anything Ubuntu related.
[02:40] <LaserJock> nice
[02:45] <bddebian> Heya LaserJock, TheMuso
[02:45] <LaserJock> hi Barry
[02:46] <TheMuso> Hey bddebian.
[02:47] <grhluna> guys
[02:47] <grhluna> hello
[02:47] <grhluna> listen to this one alright..
[02:48] <grhluna> i have a tough choice to make i wanted to ask for opinion i have this htc touch right for me its an expensive device.. i was wondering do you think i could take the risk messing with it, in order to try linux or at least having it sync some way with the new ubuntu release.. or do you think i should leave it alone? do u think i would damage the device or not? bare in mind i dont want to buy a new one/afford a new one, the htc touch is a 
[02:48] <grhluna> what would you do? would you leave it alone or give it a shot?
[02:52] <wgrant> grhluna: This is not a support channel.
[02:53] <grhluna> im just looking for someone familiar with the ubuntu code thats all to help me to make the choice im not asking for support
[02:53] <wgrant> That isn't a development question, so isn't relevant here. It is a support question.
[02:54] <grhluna> if u know just drop me a message ok
[03:15] <TheMuso> The more this support stuff in here and -devel happens, the more I think #ubuntu is getting too busy for people to feel like they can get help and will get help.
[04:02] <ScottK> Good evening everyone.
[04:02] <ScottK> I'm still waiting for the flood of bugmail and not getting it.
[04:02] <ScottK> ;-)
[04:02] <wgrant> Hey ScottK.
[04:02] <wgrant> There are many fewer bugs than I expected.
[04:03] <wgrant> A lot of them being Kubuntu- or x86_64-specific.
[04:04] <ScottK> So far I've seen exactly one new kde-guidance but since the RC and that turned out to be hal.
[04:04] <wgrant> Heh. Good to see.
[04:04] <TheMuso> Greetings ScottK.
[04:05] <ScottK> Considering displayconfig was substantially broken with the current Xorg, I think it's terrific.
[04:05] <ScottK> Hey there TheMuso.
[04:05] <wgrant> A remote fraction of the upgrade failures we had for Gutsy.
[04:06] <wgrant> But I hate to think what'll happen once 8.04.1 is released and all Dapper folks upgrade.
[04:06] <ScottK> Yeah.
[04:06] <ScottK> So what's with the new nick?  Get banned and have to hide?
[04:32] <Hobbsee> ScottK: no, he must be working for canonical now, of course
[04:32] <Hobbsee> TheMuso: it is.  it's been like that for a while
[04:33] <TheMuso> Hobbsee: ??
[04:33] <Hobbsee> TheMuso: #ubuntu being too busy
[04:33] <TheMuso> ah
[04:34] <ScottK> That's one theory.
[04:35] <Hobbsee> or he's trying to get away from the painful guy last night, who has a similar nick.
[04:35] <ScottK> Ah.
[04:36] <ScottK> Hmm
[04:36] <ScottK> Where do I find the list of packages blacklisted from being synced?
[04:36] <ScottK> I'm trying to figure out why we don't have python-ldap-doc.
[04:36] <Hobbsee> check p.u.c/~ubuntu-archiv
[04:36] <Hobbsee> check p.u.c/~ubuntu-archive
[04:37] <wgrant> ScottK: Decided it was time for a change, I guess.
[04:38] <ScottK> That'd work too.
[04:38] <Hobbsee> wgrant: pathetic
[04:42]  * wgrant rechristens Hobbsee.
[04:47] <Hobbsee> wgrant: no.
[04:47] <wgrant> Bah.
[04:47]  * Hobbsee also ditched her real name in multiple places last night
[05:40] <warp10> Good morning!
[06:16] <geser> good morning
[06:22] <dholbach> good morning
[06:32] <geser> Guten Morgen dholbach
[06:33] <dholbach> hi geser
[07:48] <\sh> moins
[07:49] <geser> Hi \sh
[07:50] <wgrant> Hey \sh.
[07:51] <\sh> wgrant, nick change? how comes? :)
[07:52] <wgrant> \sh: I'd been planning to do it for ages, and decided that at release was as good a time as any.
[07:53] <\sh> hehe
[08:42] <elmargol> reporting bugreports to debian is a pain in the a.. :(
[08:48] <\sh> elmargol, claws-mail has a nice feature named templates ;) it helps /me never uses reportbug for debian actually
[10:01] <_ruben> bah ... DKMS is scary stuff :p
[10:11] <_ruben> hmm .. whats wrong with this changelog entry?   megaraid_sas-dkms (v00.00.03.16) stable; urgency=low
[10:11] <elmargol> \sh, can I have your template?
[10:11] <jpatrick> _ruben: stable?
[10:12] <_ruben> jpatrick: its an auto-created entry by DKMS
[10:12] <\sh> elmargol, sure...just send me an email pls, so I can reply this evening when I'm at home
[10:13] <_ruben> bad syntax for version or so ? dont really have a clue myself :(
[10:13] <elmargol> \sh, blaxhall.com?
[10:14] <wgrant> Are versions starting with non-numerics valid?
[10:14] <wgrant> I don't think they are.
[10:14] <\sh> elmargol, write to sh@sourcecode.de :)
[10:14] <_ruben> wgrant: that's what i was thinking .. lets see if i can fix that easily
[10:15] <elmargol> mail is out
[10:15] <\sh> elmargol, thx...I'll send it out this evening...when I'm home
[10:16] <james_w> _ruben: you can't have an underscore in package names
[10:16] <_ruben> james_w: ah!
[10:16] <_ruben> will change that as well then
[10:32] <elmargol> can someone please test http://launchpadlibrarian.net/13886491/shell-fm_0.5-0%7Eppa0_i386.deb
[10:32] <elmargol> seems to work for me
[10:46] <_ruben> ok .. dkms is just too nasty .. time to move on, might try again later
[10:53] <soren> _ruben: What makes you think there's something wrong with it?
[10:54] <soren> _ruben: I'm not saying there's not, but I'm just wondering.
[10:55] <soren> _ruben: I'm assuming the answer will be something like "Because foo tells the bar when I try baz".
[10:55] <soren> _ruben: What are foo, bar, and baz?
[10:56] <_ruben> soren: well, there's either something wrong with dkms and/or megaraid_sas, or im just too stupid to figure it out under my current workload
[10:57] <_ruben> these servers need to be up and running asap, if i could sneak in the latest megaraid_sas driver it would've been nice, but it isnt a showstopper atm
[10:57] <soren> _ruben: You're not really answering my question.
[10:57] <soren> :)
[10:58] <_ruben> soren: most likely because i dont fully understand your question :)
[11:00] <soren> What makes you think it doesn't work?
[11:00] <soren> I'm not saying it *does* work. It just helps if you answer that question (as stupid as it may sound).
[11:01] <geser> _ruben: what did you try? what worked? what didn't work? where are you stuck?
[11:04] <soren> _ruben: Usually, answers to that question have the general form: "Oh, because the X says Y when I do Z". X, Y, and Z happen to be very, very helpful pieces of information, hence the question.
[11:11] <_ruben> soren: dkms fails to build a .deb file for various reasons .. some things i have worked around (specifying kernel source dir, etc), but working around the invalid changelog entry wasnt successful thusfar .. the megaraid_sas package probably has some hardcoded references to megaraid_sas, since even tho i renamed a fair amount of things to megaraid-sas, it still shows mention of megaraid_sas
[11:12] <_ruben> soren: once i finished up configuring these 2 machines i'll give it a try in a clean environment to see if i can pinpoint some more
[11:13] <_ruben> and the fact that dkms is originally aimed at RPM aint helping either :) .. you need to alien a driver downloaded from dell .. and using the resulting .deb you can get dkms to build another .deb which holds the actual driver :P
[13:44] <coolbhavi> hi
[13:45] <coolbhavi>  How to merge using MoM and upload it onto my PPA?
[13:45] <Hobbsee> !merge
[13:45] <ubotu> Sorry, I don't know anything about merge - try searching on http://ubotu.ubuntu-nl.org/factoids.cgi
[13:45] <Hobbsee> bah
[13:46] <Hobbsee> coolbhavi: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment/Merging
[13:46]  * persia doesn't understand merging to a PPA
[13:47]  * coolbhavi is a newbie in packaging so requires help badly
[13:47] <azeem> maybe explain what you're trying to achieve
[13:49] <Hobbsee> or maybe allow us to have a break, seeing as the release was yesterday.
[13:49] <Hobbsee> persia: trying hte merged package in a ppa, probably
[13:49] <persia> Nah.  Good to ask questions.  Given that the release was yesterday, people may not answer.
[13:50] <persia> Hobbsee: Maybe: I just don't see the point, given the possibility of a local build.
[13:50] <Amaranth> !merge is <reply>https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelopment/Merging
[13:50] <ubotu> I'll remember that, Amaranth
[13:50] <Hobbsee> persia: that requires setting up a build environment.  but yes
[13:54] <coolbhavi> Ok was it wrong to ask questions? Then I'm sorry
[13:55] <persia> coolbhavi: No.  Good to ask questions: just realise that many people aren't likely to answer much, especially without further information about your ultimate goals.
[13:55] <jordi> hi
[13:55] <jordi> https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/ocsinventory-agent/+bug/217257
[13:55] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 217257 in ocsinventory-agent "package ocsinventory-agent 1:0.0.8-1 failed to install/upgrade: subprocess post-installation script killed by signal (Interrupt)" [Undecided,New]
[13:55] <jordi> what happens to packages which break the packaging system, ie, are uninstallable?
[13:56] <jordi> are those candidates for change in stable?
[13:56] <persia> jordi: Very much so
[13:56] <persia> !SRU
[13:56] <ubotu> Stable Release Update information is at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/StableReleaseUpdates
[13:56] <jordi> this is universe
[13:56] <james_w> jordi: that will be fixed in the auto-sync for the development release.
[13:56] <coolbhavi> My aim is there is a new version of John the ripper in debian which has to merged into ubuntu so I m asking
[13:56] <persia> jordi: Right.  Same process, excepting subscribing motu-sru rather than ubuntu-sru.
[13:56] <james_w> jordi: It's certainly a candidate for an SRU
[13:57] <jordi> nod
[13:57] <jordi> good, because this one is annoying me :)
[13:57] <jordi> it's a pitty because I knew about this well before the release
[13:57] <jordi> but I'm swamped
[13:58] <james_w> jordi: yeah, that's a shame
[13:59] <james_w> It should have been in one our lists that is "RC bugs fixed in Debian but not in Ubuntu", but that list wasn't empty at release
[13:59] <james_w> it seems the diff from -1 to -2 should be ok for the SRU, perhaps with the debconf templates stripped, I'm not sure.
[14:00]  * persia notes that SRU submissions from that list are likely very welcome, and the SRU archives are the only ones accepting uploads right now.
[14:00] <james_w> persia: good point.
[14:00] <jordi> I can't remember what was in -3, but I would use that one
[14:00] <james_w> persia: is it possible to sync for an SRU?
[14:00] <jordi> james_w: ok, yes
[14:00] <jordi> james_w: the fix for this bug is in -3
[14:01] <persia> james_w: I suppose it might be, but manual upload to -proposed is likely better, given the preference for reversioning and reducing the changes to the minimal set to fix the bug.
[14:01] <james_w> jordi: ok, I'm pulling up the PTS now to investigate.
[14:01] <james_w> persia: ok, thanks.
[14:01] <jordi> james_w: http://snapshot.debian.net/archive/2008/04/13/debian/pool/main/o/ocsinventory-agent/
[14:02] <james_w> jordi: thanks
[14:02] <james_w> it looks like we want the combined -2 and -3 diffs.
[14:02] <jordi> yes
[14:02] <jordi> I'm extracting a diff now
[14:02] <james_w> jordi: ah, you're on it, great. I'll go and have lunch instead :-)
[14:03] <jordi> cheers ;)
[14:03] <james_w> jordi: target hardy-proposed with an NMU version number if you didn't know already.
[14:03] <persia> coolbhavi: Probably best to wait for intrepid to open to merge it.
[14:07] <jordi> james_w: hmm, I leave those details to yo
[14:07] <jordi> I need to go now, I hope I provided enough info
[14:07] <jordi> I thought a pull from Debian was possible here too
[14:07] <jordi> bye
[14:07] <james_w> jordi: sure, I'll subscribe, then I can tweak it.
[14:44] <sistpoty|work> hi folks
[14:44] <geser> Hi sistpoty|work
[14:44] <sistpoty|work> hi geser
[14:53] <sistpoty|work> ScottK: btw.: imho we should get the audacious-crossfade plugin fixed ASAP. whom did you talk to to get permission for libitpp?
[14:54] <ScottK> I talked to slangasek as it was pre-release.  Now that we've released, I think it's up to motu-sru to decide.
[14:54] <sistpoty|work> ah, I see...
[14:55] <ScottK> Hardy belongs to a different batch of bureacrats now.
[14:56] <persia> Is the motu-release team staying on for intrepid, with new elections mid-cycle, or planning a shuffle early-cycle?
[14:56] <ScottK> It should be discussed.
[14:57]  * ScottK has been pondering sending a mail to MOTU ML saying, "I'll be at UDS, is there anything for motu-release to do there?"
[14:57]  * ScottK had been thinking the team should have some role all the way through and not vaporise/re-appear.
[14:58] <sistpoty|work> imbrandon, jdong, TheMuso: can you give me an ACK to upload a rebuild only xmms-crossfade for bug #208666 to hardy-proposed? (mere rebuild is known to fix the problem)
[14:58] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 208666 in xmms-crossfade "audacious crashed with SIGSEGV in g_type_check_instance_cast()" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/208666
[14:58] <persia> I'd like to see motu-release help triage some of the blueprints and outline some early targets for work to be done pre DIF, although I'm not sure any of the members will have time.
[14:59] <ScottK> I'd be up for some of that, but I'd like for MOTU (at a meeting) to say we have that role.
[15:00] <sistpoty|work> let's put it on the agenda for tonights meeting, shall we? (at least to start the discussion there=
[15:00] <persia> I don't see how motu-release identifying targets is restrictive of anyone else doing anything, or why that activity should be restricted to motu-release.
[15:00] <persia> As a result, I don't think it needs a determination by MOTU.
[15:00] <Hobbsee> ScottK: then i have to decide quickly if i want to be a part.  hmmm.
[15:00] <persia> On the other hand, I'd think the members of motu-release would be the natural interested party.
[15:02] <ScottK> Hobbsee: I'd put it the other way.  You are a part until you decide you don't want to be.  You can always deactivate yourself when you want to.
[15:02] <Hobbsee> ScottK: i meant MOTU generallly, but poitn taken.
[15:02] <persia> More generally, I don't see the point of waiting until there is an "authorised" team in place before doing whatever, especially if it is unlikely to break someone else's workflow.  If it's contentious, then yes, it needs discussion and agreement at a meeting.
[15:02] <ScottK> persia: I don't think Universe has had release goals.
[15:03] <persia> ScottK: I set some for hardy: didn't meet too many of them, but I think more of hardy builds than did for gutsy, as an example.
[15:03] <ScottK> I had some for myself too.
[15:03] <persia> Ah.  Mine were for other people :)
[15:03] <sistpoty|work> heh, geser implemented on of mine (ghc6 transition) *g*
[15:03] <sistpoty|work> one even
[15:04] <ScottK> Sure, I got help with mine too.
[15:04] <ScottK> At a minimum we should have a mirror to a Main release goal that says "Get X out of Main" that says "Get X out of the archive" usually about one release later.
[15:06] <ScottK> Someone might look at http://ftbfs.wordpress.com/2008/04/25/pyslide-story/ and see if we need an SRU.
[15:06] <persia> ScottK: That sounds perfectly reasonable.  I'd think that if you, or motu-release, or some random MOTU wanted to track those somewhere for people to push, it ought not require any specific authoirsation.  If someone wants to preserve something, it's worth discussion, but in the absence of opposition, it ought just be done.
[15:07] <ScottK> persia: Agreed.  As I did for the python-xml transition in Hardy.  But if I want "Because I'm in motu-release" to have any special meaning in the discussion, it needs to be agreed.
[15:07] <laga> (deprecating python-xml made me sad.)
[15:08] <ScottK> laga: It was needed.  It's been largely duplicate to what was in python since 2.4.  I'm not sure what the best answer for the not duplicate parts are.
[15:09] <persia> I can see that point of view.  Personally, I'd rather see self-organised teams (e.g. motu-release) take on responsibility organically, and avoid discussion until there is contention.  As an example, I think both organisers of School have done well, and others have respected their opinions about School, without there ever being any formalisation beyond self-selection.
[15:09] <ScottK> I just wish we'd decided on doing that one last October than in March.
[15:09] <ScottK> persia: For something that's a separate project, that's perfectly fine.
[15:09] <ScottK> motu-release affects all of universe.
[15:10] <ScottK> It's a bit different.
[15:10] <persia> Let's have a Release-planning session at UDS, run by someone in motu-release and identify things like python-xml that would be good targets, and submit for discussion.  Unless there is objection by someone about one of the transitions, we oughtn't need to formalise anything.
[15:11] <persia> Essentially, my feeling is that unless someone cares enough to ask about it, it's not worth having a rule that motu-release always wins, and if someone cares enough to object, the specific issue ought be discussed, rather than just a reference to motu-release planning.
[15:14] <geser> sistpoty|work: if you wanted to meet your release goal on your own you should have told me :)
[15:14] <sistpoty|work> heh
[15:14] <sistpoty|work> geser: I wouldn't have been able to do that actually ;)
[15:17] <ScottK> persia: Sounds generally reasonable.
[15:19] <persia> ScottK: Note that if it doesn't work organically, I'm happy to support having a special blessing for motu-release identified release goals, but want to try it without as much process first, as I'd like to generally see more self-initiated things happening in MOTU.
[15:19] <ScottK> Agreed.
[15:21] <Hobbsee> persia: please make sure it's at a reasonable time for aussies.
[15:21] <Hobbsee> if you can
[15:21]  * Hobbsee would like to see yada out of the archive.
[15:21] <sistpoty|work> hm... we really should start with SRUs for hardy now (even though these cannot be fixed for intrepid yet)...
[15:22] <persia> Hobbsee: You're motu-release, and I'm not: you're in a better position to set the schedule for my suggested session to be run by motu-release :p
[15:22] <persia> sistpoty|work: There's a bunch already processed: no reason not to push more :)
[15:23] <sistpoty|work> persia: is there?
[15:23] <Hobbsee> persia: sure, but i won't be at UDS
[15:23] <ScottK> persia: None in Universe since release.
[15:23] <persia> ScottK: all the uploads to -proposed were for main?
[15:24] <sistpoty|work> persia: all but libitpp
[15:24] <ScottK> persia: I've suggested to motu-sru that they relax the "Must be fixed in the development version first rule", but no word.
[15:24] <ScottK> sistpoty|work: And one mythbuntu one.
[15:24] <ScottK> Both uploaded before the release.
[15:24] <sistpoty|work> oh, must have missed that one
[15:24] <persia> Ah.  Right.  I guess it needs the SRU team to jump up and do.
[15:25] <dholbach> have a great weekend everybody - enjoy the celebrations
[15:25] <ScottK> Yes.  I've pointed a couple of them at it, but that's all I can do.
[15:25] <sistpoty|work> cya dholbach
[15:30] <persia> Hobbsee: I'm not sure the chair can't be from VoIP, but understood.  Maybe someone else will volunteer, but I'll mention that morning is better, if asked.
[15:31] <Hobbsee> persia: it's mroe the fact that if it's at 4am local, i won't be there.
[15:32] <persia> Hobbsee: Right.  Has to be before lunch, if I remember Sevilla correctly.
[15:32] <laga> for a SRU, i should subscribe motu-sru, right?
[15:32] <persia> laga: If the package is in universe, yes.
[15:33] <Hobbsee> persia: something like that
[15:34] <laga> done, thanks.
[15:51]  * sistpoty|work gets impatient and sent a mail to -motu about SRUs :)
[15:52] <sebner> huhu sistpoty|work
[15:52] <sistpoty|work> hi sebner
[16:09] <ScottK> superm1: Bug #218649 looks mythtv related, so would you please take a look at it.
[16:09] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 218649 in fusion-icon "fusion-icon crashed with SIGSEGV in XChangeProperty()" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/218649
[16:09] <jdong> sistpoty|work: you got your ACK
[16:09] <sistpoty|work> thanks jdong
[16:09] <jdong> what was the outcome of that large discussion yesterday on SRU policy?
[16:10] <persia> jdong: It awaits a decision from internal discussion amoung motu-sru
[16:11] <jdong> ah
[16:11]  * jdong looks at his mailbox
[16:11] <superm1> ScottK, not to me.  it looks like they have a disk with an invalid partition table that is causing areas of concern
[16:11]  * persia hopes for a repeat of the early SRU policy with all updates going into intrepid the day the archive opens
[16:12] <ScottK> superm1: THanks.
[16:12] <ScottK> I just saw myth stuff in the log and am to tired to think much further.
[16:13] <ScottK> superm1: Would you be up for marking that in the bug (if you haven't already)?
[16:13] <superm1> oh already did :)
[16:13] <superm1> just letting you know since you probably weren't subscribed
[16:13] <ScottK> Thanks.
[16:13] <ScottK> I am actually (I get bugmail for most all Python packages).  Thanks.
[16:13] <laga> superm1: i filed an sru for mcc
[16:13] <superm1> yup
[16:14] <superm1> okay good laga
[16:16] <sistpoty|work> persia: I already wrote a mail to -motu, but it's currently in the moderation queue (maybe some list admin might want to whitelist my work address? *g*)
[16:16]  * persia thinks that would be a good idea, and wonders if one of the listadmins is about
[16:32] <CrippledCanary> I found a bug in smstools.... /var/run/smstools folder isn't recreated after reboot... How are those things usualy handled?
[16:32] <james_w> CrippledCanary: via a bug report.
[16:32] <CrippledCanary> made it already... thought I'd make a patch as well :)
[16:32] <james_w> https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/smstools/+bug/221973
[16:32] <persia> And by having the program check for the existence of the file before writing to it, and generating the necessary directory if it is not present at runtime.
[16:32] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 221973 in smstools "smstools folder under /var/run isn't recreated after reboot" [Undecided,New]
[16:33] <CrippledCanary> thats my bug
[16:33] <CrippledCanary> is there a best practise on where to put those thinds... i'd guess somewhere in the init.d/smstools script
[16:33] <james_w> https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/smstools/+bug/135033 should be checked and fixed at the same time I guess
[16:33] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 135033 in smstools "wrong ownership of /var/run/smstools" [Undecided,New]
[16:34] <james_w> CrippledCanary: yep, that's exactly where it should go.
[16:34] <james_w> if you can provide a patch that would be fantastic.
[16:35] <CrippledCanary> will start working on it right away
[16:35] <james_w> thanks
[16:35] <james_w> CrippledCanary: do you know how to make a debdiff?
[16:35] <CrippledCanary> yes I know
[16:35] <james_w> even better :-)
[16:35] <CrippledCanary> i know how to make packages to (if not to complex)
[16:36] <CrippledCanary> so a attached debdiff is the prefered way to do it then
[16:37] <CrippledCanary> how should I handle 135033... it will get fixed at the same time... mark as duplicate or ?
[16:37] <persia> CrippledCanary: An attached debdiff with all the changes that would make for a new revision.  Right now, only SRUs are being considered, so the target ought be hardy, and it needs to go through the SRU process.
[16:37] <persia> Once intrepid opens, a new revision closing all the outstanding bugs in LP would be great :)
[16:38] <CrippledCanary> i don't think i have the time to do more then a patch right now... but how should i mark the other bug that will get fixed at the same time?
[16:38] <james_w> persia: "target ought to be hardy", is it not hardy-proposed, or did you mean target in a looser sense?
[16:39] <persia> Err,  Actually reading the bug, I suspect both are SRU worth on the basis of "completely fails to work".
[16:39] <james_w> persia: yeah, I agree
[16:39] <CrippledCanary> true
[16:39] <ScottK> hardy-proposed
[16:39] <persia> james_w: debian/changelog target is hardy.  dput target is hardy-proposed.
[16:39] <persia> ScottK: in debian/changelog?
[16:39] <ScottK> persia: I usually just put hardy-proposed in the changelog
[16:39] <CrippledCanary> ok
[16:40] <persia> Ah.  I thought we weren't supposed to do that anymore (but I haven't done an SRU in quite a while)
[16:40]  * ScottK defers to the documenation
[16:40] <persia> !SRU
[16:40] <ubotu> Stable Release Update information is at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/StableReleaseUpdates
[16:40] <ScottK> It's the version numbering for proposed we weren't supposed to do anymore.
[16:41] <persia> The documentation seems to indicate to use release-security, but I'm sure that's unintentional.
[16:43] <CrippledCanary> ok... creating a patch will have to wait until tomorow for me.... don't have time right now
[16:46] <z1o> can someone go over https://answers.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+question/30700 please I was told to come here if I had further questions
[16:47] <Hobbsee> z1o: you could always be helpful and put the patch up there yourself.
[16:48] <z1o> Hobbsee: I dont have a patch the current patch should be pushed upto the upstream provider.
[16:48] <Hobbsee> z1o: then...push it?
[16:48] <james_w> z1o: Ubuntu hasn't modified that package, so no-one will have touched it to push it upstream.
[16:49] <z1o> well that packaged does not build without out the patch.. do I have to to throught the patch to figure out what bug it fixes ?
[16:49]  * Hobbsee wonders if coolbhavi has alwasy been that unhelpful on questions
[16:52] <sistpoty|work> z1o: this package is directly import from debian/unstable w.o. changes (i.e. with only a new entry in debian/changelog). You might want to ask there.
[16:52] <james_w> z1o: do you have a build log that shows the problem?
[16:53] <z1o> james_w: my point is that its a diservice to not talk to the jade maintainer and fix the actual bugs
[16:53] <james_w> z1o: yes, and I agree.
[16:53] <persia> z1o: Sure, but that package has not been inspected or modified by anyone in Ubuntu, so it oughtn't be very surprising that the patch wasn't sent upstream by anyone in Ubuntu.
[16:54] <z1o> I'm not sure how debian to ubuntu packages work.
[16:55] <james_w> z1o: also, if the Debian revision is -47 it suggests that the upstream doesn't release very often
[16:55] <persia> z1o: In most cases, Ubuntu builds the Debian source package automatically.
[16:55] <bddebian> Heya gang
[16:55] <sistpoty|work> hi bddebian
[16:55] <bddebian> Hi sistpoty|work
[16:56] <z1o> persia: great but someone must be responsible for maintaining it?
[16:56] <jdong> Hobbsee: yeah I'm also concerned by coolbhavi's response to that answer tracker ticket
[16:56] <james_w> z1o: Neil Roeth <neil@debian.org>
[16:57] <james_w> z1o: that's the Debian maintainer.
[16:57] <persia> z1o: Not specifically.  As a team, the developers are responsible for all the packages, but we've about 200 developers and about 12,000 packages, so some don't get any attention.
[16:57] <Hobbsee> jdong: well, the reason he got membership, apparently, because the guys didn't think they could veto it, form the loco
[16:57] <persia> In most cases, we rely on the Debian maintainers, and only make changes where there is a bug that we fix, or there is some difference between Debian and Ubuntu that needs working around.
[16:58] <jdong> Hobbsee: I seem to recall that his membership is primarily from his work on the answer tracker... perhaps in his quest for karma points he's gotten rushed at responding
[16:58] <z1o> personally I've already put alot of time into this. it looks like I'll find what the patch fixes and post a bug to http://www.jclark.com/jade/
[16:58] <jdong> Hobbsee: looking through his replies on the tracker it seems like a lot of the responses are "canned" or otherwise contextless
[16:58] <Hobbsee> jdong: probably....
[16:59] <Hobbsee> jdong: i doubt they have a membership revoker.  i wonder if they have a catalyser for the tracker, even.
[16:59] <james_w> z1o: thankyou
[16:59] <z1o> are you talking about the same question here?
[17:00] <jdong> Hobbsee: "and please close this question before doing so"
[17:00] <jdong> Hobbsee: it's those kinds of responses that concern me :-/
[17:00] <Hobbsee> yes....
[17:00] <jdong> Hobbsee: https://answers.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/gcalctool/+question/30347 the filer was markedly unhappy at the remark
[17:01] <z1o> anyways... thanks for the help
[17:06] <Hobbsee> jdong: i guess you'd have to take it up with the CC or something
[17:09] <sistpoty|work> hm... I guess "tonight" is not the best word for a global community *g*
[17:15] <sebner> sistpoty|work: ähm. Stupid question. what does 20 utc is in our time? xD
[17:15] <persia> 19:00
[17:15] <persia> Err.  18:00 (Stupid clock changing laws)
[17:16] <sebner> persia: that would mean it's *now*
[17:16] <jdong> sebner: use your date command :)
[17:16] <persia> Oh.  Then you're not in the timezone I thought you were in :)
[17:16] <jdong> for example, date -d 20:00UTC
[17:17] <sebner> jdong: coooooooll
[17:17] <sebner> persia: np
[17:17] <sebner> grml. utc+2 :\
[17:19] <sistpoty|work> sebner: hence I wrote "tonight" :P
[17:19] <ogra> sebner, or date -u will give you the current UTC time
[17:20] <sebner> sistpoty|work: rofl
[17:20] <sebner> ogra: what great tools linux has :P
[17:20] <ogra> :)
[17:23]  * sistpoty|work heads home
[17:23] <sistpoty|work> cya
[17:51] <jdong> If you prefer *some human contact*, you can use the mailing lists, web forums, or chat with the community on Freenode IRC Channel: #ubuntu.
[17:51] <jdong> is that really the best way of wording that particular sentence?
[17:52] <laga> no. it should be changed to "If you prefer some human contact, take a shower and get out of your mom's basement".
[17:52] <laga> SCNR
[17:56] <persia> I'm not sure any of those qualify as *human* contact.  We only assume those generating the corresponding text are human.  Perhaps "Community interaction is also available from the mailing lists, web forums, or on the Freenode IRC channel #ubuntu".
[17:56] <jdong> even human communication is better
[17:57] <persia> Well, maybe.  Depends on how one interprets "contact".
[18:45] <nxvl> do we have discount on store.ubuntu.com?
[18:46] <nxvl> prices go a like 10% down when i log in
[18:48] <CrippledCanary> what to do with the debian/debian-version file when adapting a package for ubuntu?
[18:49] <RainCT> nxvl: uhm.. here not
[18:49] <laga> why does the store force me to log in?
[18:49] <laga> that's annoying.
[18:51] <RainCT> here it uses my Launchpad account (with OpenID)
[18:51] <laga> yes.
[18:51] <laga> but why? there's no point
[18:51] <RainCT> laga: well, perhaps it needs your address?
[18:52] <laga> and now it forces me enter my phone number/address, after selecting "sign in now". i just want to browse the store
[18:52] <asomething> ﻿CrippledCanary: from the packaging guide: Ubuntu and Debian have slightly different package versioning schemes to avoid conflicting packages with the same source version. If a Debian package has been changed in Ubuntu, it has ubuntuX (where X is the Ubuntu revision number) appended to the end of the Debian version. So if the Debian hello 2.1.1-1 package was changed by Ubuntu, the version string would be 2.1.1-1ubuntu1. If a pa
[18:52] <RainCT> asomething: I don't think that's what he means
[18:53] <CrippledCanary> i knew that... and should that go into the debian/debian-version as well or should i make a "debian/ubuntu-version" as well
[18:53] <RainCT> CrippledCanary: What package is that? I've never heard about a debian/debian-version file before
[18:53] <asomething> ﻿CrippledCanary: sorry didn't catch the word file there
[18:53] <CrippledCanary> smstools
[18:53] <laga> also, "I Do it with Ubuntu Mens T-shirt" sounds weird when you just parse "I Do it with Ubuntu Mens"
[18:54] <RainCT> laga: lol
[18:54] <RainCT> CrippledCanary: it's already in Ubuntu
[18:55] <RainCT> CrippledCanary: (version 3.0.10-2 taken from Debian)
[18:55] <CrippledCanary> i know... but there are some bugs... /var/run/smstools doesn't get recreated at reboot (and I have filed a bug)
[18:55] <CrippledCanary> if I remember it correctly I should make a ubuntu1 version of it now
[18:56] <RainCT> CrippledCanary: if that's fixed in -2 then you want a sync
[18:56] <RainCT> !sync
[18:56] <ubotu> Sorry, I don't know anything about sync - try searching on http://ubotu.ubuntu-nl.org/factoids.cgi
[18:56] <RainCT> (for Intrepid. fixing it in Hardy will be a bit more difficult)
[18:57] <CrippledCanary> RainCT: where did u get that info?
[18:57] <RainCT> CrippledCanary: which?
[18:58] <CrippledCanary> RainCT: that 3.0.10-2... its only -1 in ubuntu
[18:58] <jdong> RainCT: this fix sounds quite reasonable, let's open up a SRU for it
[18:58] <RainCT> CrippledCanary: http://packages.debian.org/sid/smstools
[18:58] <ScottK> RainCT: He's trying to make a patch for an SRU.
[18:59] <RainCT> CrippledCanary: About the debian/debian-version file, I'd say just ignore it (by the way, it has been removed in 3.0.10-2).
[19:00] <CrippledCanary> Is it worth doing an SRU or just wait for the next sync... but that would not get into hardy, would it?
[19:01] <RainCT> CrippledCanary: Once there are repositories for Intrepid, the new version will be automatically synced (copied) there, but no, it won't get into Hardy this way.
[19:01] <ScottK> CrippledCanary: My recommendation would be to go for an SRU.  All Hardy users will benifit then.
[19:02] <RainCT> CrippledCanary: so yes, if the problem is serious enough you want a SRU
[19:02] <CrippledCanary> it won't run at all after reboot
[19:02] <CrippledCanary> thats pretty serious
[19:02]  * RainCT agrees
[19:03] <laga> i've got some postinst breakage in some mythtv packages which prevents upgrading if /var/lib/myth* is on NFS. is there any way to fasttrack a SRU without having to go through -proposed? the fix would consist in adding a few "|| true" statements at the end of line.
[19:03] <jdong> CrippledCanary: as a member of ~motu-sru that approves SRUs, I'd say go for a SRU :)
[19:04] <CrippledCanary> ok...
[19:04] <slangasek> laga: short answer: no
[19:04] <jdong> laga: if you give me a diff in the next hour I will be able to turn around and review it within that timeframe
[19:04] <RainCT> CrippledCanary: here's the info on how to request it https://wiki.ubuntu.com/StableReleaseUpdates. If you want to do it yourself check the  new revision from Debian (you can get the source from http://packages.debian.org/changelogs/pool/main/s/smstools/smstools_3.0.10-2/changelog too) and if it's fixed there backport the necessary changes to Hardy's version
[19:04] <jdong> laga: and from proposed to updates is simply 3 or so reports of it working
[19:04] <RainCT> *oops, http://packages.debian.org/sid/smstools
[19:04] <slangasek> I wouldn't expect an archive admin to agree to bypassing the -proposed step, though as jdong notes, this doesn't have to be a long process
[19:04] <laga> ok.
[19:05] <CrippledCanary> RainCT: Should i backport just the fix for the SRU or the whole thing
[19:05] <jdong> laga: which is a pretty reasonable absolute minimum level of QA IMO :)
[19:05] <jdong> CrippledCanary: what else is in the -2 revision?
[19:05] <RainCT> CrippledCanary: only the absolutely necessary changes
[19:05] <ScottK> CrippledCanary: Just the fix.
[19:05] <RainCT> jdong: a lot of stuff
[19:05] <CrippledCanary> jdong: the changelog is quite long for -2
[19:05] <laga> jdong: that's a very nice offer, but i need to run now. if you're looking for motu-sru work ;), an ACK https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/221921 would be most appreciated.
[19:05] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 221921 in mythbuntu-control-centre "SRU: progress bar oddities break creation of diskless clients" [Undecided,New]
[19:05] <jdong> CrippledCanary: let's just go for the fix
[19:05] <CrippledCanary> Ok.. just the fix then
[19:06] <ScottK> laga: Is that different than the one that's already in proposed?
[19:06] <CrippledCanary> and what about debian/debian-version, should that get 3.0.10-1ubuntu1 to?
[19:06] <laga> ScottK: martin pitt (AFAIK) declinded the one in proposed because it lacked a bug number.
[19:06] <RainCT> CrippledCanary: what's the content of the file?
[19:06] <CrippledCanary> 3.0.10-1
[19:07] <jdong> CrippledCanary: -1 goes to -1ubuntu0.1
[19:07] <laga> ScottK: so this is the same upload, just with the bug number added.
[19:07] <ScottK> I see.
[19:07] <CrippledCanary> ok... -1unbuntu0.1 ... havent seen that one before   thought it was -1ubuntu1
[19:07] <RainCT> CrippledCanary: uhm.. I'd say yes, though I really don't know what that file is for
[19:08] <RainCT> CrippledCanary: it is ubuntu1 for new revisions that get into the current development release, for SRU's its ubuntu0.1
[19:08] <CrippledCanary> RainCT: Ok...
[19:08] <ScottK> CrippledCanary: Yes.  In general it's ubuntu1, but you put ubuntu0.1 so that there can never be a version in the later release with that same revision.
[19:08] <CrippledCanary> thanks all ... I'm sure I'll be back
[19:33] <CrippledCanary> is there a best practise on how to make sure a folder under /var/run exists?
[19:34] <geser> check if it's there and re-create if necessary
[19:34] <jdong>  [ -d /var/run/folder ] || mkdir /var/run/folder?
[19:34] <slangasek> mkdir -p it as part of an init script
[19:35] <CrippledCanary> ok... as easy as that...
[19:35] <slangasek> or, apparently, install -d it, as the samba init script seems to do to my surprise :)
[19:35] <CrippledCanary> what i could see in smstools from debian they didn't do any of that
[19:36] <slangasek> true; Debian doesn't use /var/run on tmpfs by default
[19:36] <CrippledCanary> that's the case then
[19:36] <slangasek> so it's still a bug in the Debian package to not handle the absence of the directory as part of the init script, but it's not a critical bug in Debian
[19:37] <CrippledCanary> slangasek: exactly
[19:38] <CrippledCanary> is there a way to create the neccesary folder from a full file path
[19:39] <slangasek> CrippledCanary: not sure what you mean?
[19:40] <CrippledCanary> there is a $PIDFILE set to /var/run/smstools/smsd.pid    is there a way to easily create the directory part of that
[19:41] <CrippledCanary> a command or anything to extract the directory part of a path
[19:41] <CrippledCanary> shell script isn't my strongest side :)
[19:41] <slangasek> install -d -o root -g root -m 755 $(dirname $PIDFILE)
[19:42] <CrippledCanary> slangasek: nice
[20:06] <emgent> heya
[20:47] <sistpoty> hi folks
[20:48] <james_w> hi su
[20:48] <james_w> oops, hi sistpoty
[20:48] <sistpoty> hi james_w
[20:50] <smallfoot-> Please fix the nvidia-glx-new proprietary device driver, something is wrong with Ubuntu's packaging of it. You get pink shadows. If you install it manually from nvidia.com, you don't get that bug...
[20:52] <sistpoty> smallfoot-: actually I don't get pink shadows... can you report a bug please?
[20:52] <sistpoty> (OTOH I don't have the newest kernel running yet)
[20:53] <james_w> sistpoty: there is one already
[20:54] <james_w> smallfoot-: are you subscribed to that bug report?
[20:54] <sistpoty> ah, I guess I'll find out after reboot :)
[20:54] <james_w> sistpoty: I don't see it either.
[20:57] <smallfoot-> james_w, yes
[20:57] <smallfoot-> sistpoty, already did
[20:57] <smallfoot-> james_w, i've had this bug for months, and its still not fixed
[20:58] <smallfoot-> it seems pretty trivial considering manually installing it from nvidia.com works
[20:58] <sebner> sistpoty: working ...
[20:58] <laga> smallfoot-: what's the bug number?
[20:59] <sistpoty> meh... there I try to check the audacious-crossfade bug, and it doesn't segfault on amd64... grml
[21:00] <james_w> smallfoot-: yes, well tracking it down is the issue, I haven't seen anyone pinpoint exactly what in the packaging breaks it.
[21:00] <sistpoty> motu meeting in #ubuntu-meeting now
[21:01] <smallfoot-> laga, 186382
[21:02] <smallfoot-> laga, also 194851
[21:07] <laga> thanks, just curious. i'm subscribed now
[21:14] <RainCT> oh.. cdbs doesn't call dh_desktop?
[21:19] <fta> only if you include gnome.mk or xfce.mk iirc
[21:26] <RainCT> fta: ah, thanks
[21:26]  * RainCT goes to fix his packages :P
[21:28] <sebner> RainCT: not interested in motu-meeting? ^^
[21:31] <RainCT> sebner: there is one? damn, why can't anyone announce them? xD
[21:31] <geser> RainCT: it was announced here in the channel and see also the topic :)
[21:32] <sebner> lol
[21:32] <RainCT> ah right
[21:32] <RainCT> sorry :P
[22:00] <anteaya> join #ubuntu-meeting
[22:03] <crimsun> something that's alarming about the entire "MOTU Apprentices"/"Ubuntu Contributing Developers" discussion is that we're slipping toward having more milestones.
[22:04] <crimsun> we're heading down that slippery slope that MOTU was chartered to avoid, and that is to _reduce_ barriers to contribution regardless of distinction or nomenclature
[22:04] <sistpoty> well, we cannot even find a simple thing like a name for a team... I guess I'm the worst meeting chair ever
[22:05] <geser> sistpoty: the topic isn't the easiest to handle
[22:05] <crimsun> honestly, we could do away with the additional team name and just give people gold stars
[22:05] <crimsun> or cookies.  Or OLPC XO-1s.
[22:06] <LaserJock> crimsun: well, this whole thing is the CCs fault IMO
[22:06] <LaserJock> and I'm not terribly happy about it
[22:07] <crimsun> can we avoid the complexity utterly and just avoid adding another team?
[22:07] <crimsun> MOTU is a significant enough milestone
[22:07] <LaserJock> the CC wouldn't allow it
[22:07] <LaserJock> the CC said we needed a new team
[22:07] <LaserJock> so there you go
[22:07] <crimsun> who said the CC's decision is final?
[22:08] <geser> LaserJock: wasn't it that we need a new team if the MC wants to give membership
[22:08] <LaserJock> umm, they delegate the responsibility
[22:08] <geser> that's how all started
[22:08] <LaserJock> geser: yes, which is utterly insane, IMO
[22:08] <crimsun> if the MC wants to give membership, what's wrong with, er, ubuntu-members?
[22:09] <crimsun> (or ubuntu-member or whatever it currently is)
[22:09] <LaserJock> crimsun: the CC didn't want that
[22:09] <geser> the CC will not add many admins to ubuntu-members
[22:09] <geser> and they want to see who added them / which way the member took for membership
[22:11] <geser> the great plan is that granting membership is spread about several teams and the MC is one of them
[22:12] <LaserJock> I don't see why the MC can't just pass along the LP id and have one of the CC add them
[22:12] <LaserJock> it's pretty much a no-brainer to me
[22:13] <geser> ask the CC why they want it that way
[22:38] <ScottK> crimsun: I'm not sure this is really worse.  Maybe I misunderstood the rules a year ago, but I definitely thought I had to be a member before I could get MOTU, so I went to the CC and got made a member.  Here we're just making being a member without being a MOTU an option the MC has.
[22:39] <crimsun> ScottK: I've never argued against that.
[22:39] <crimsun> (heck, I went through what was known as "fast track" with several of the guys from the warty-hoary dev days)
[22:40] <ScottK> Desipite all the sausage making we're looking at right now, all adding you can get membership from MC as well as the CC.
[22:40] <crimsun> my concern is why the CC feels the need to force the creation of a separate team
[22:41] <crimsun> LaserJock: and no, semantics means stuff.
[22:41] <ScottK> I'm guessing it's the same reason we have ubuntu-dev and motu teams for developers.
[22:41] <ScottK> No,  I don't understand that one either.
[22:41] <geser> ScottK: FYI the motu meeting is still in process
[22:42] <LaserJock> crimsun: I don't get it either, but I figure we can make the most of it
[22:42] <ScottK> Oh.  Thanks.
[22:42] <LaserJock> and provide a nice, low barrier place for people to go
[22:42] <LaserJock> MOTU is a pretty high-barrier team, as it ought to be
[22:42] <crimsun> no no no
[22:42] <crimsun> no no
[22:42] <LaserJock> so I can see the value of a middle-ground
[22:42] <crimsun> argh
[22:42] <crimsun> MOTU was created for a LOW barrier
[22:43] <sistpoty> ScottK: you missed the good parts already... like /me writing with caps lock on on purpose in an ubuntu channel for the first time *g*
[22:43] <laga> low barrier? why do i suddenly feel bad about not being a member? ;)
[22:43] <ScottK> Heh.
[22:43] <LaserJock> crimsun: well, the opinions of what is low and high have changed
[22:43] <LaserJock> crimsun: low is the new high ;-)
[22:43] <ScottK> It is low compared to core-dev.
[22:43] <crimsun> no, I think Mark's intent would still stand that MOTU is a reasonable goal for everyone.
[22:44] <LaserJock> well, that's Mark
[22:44]  * crimsun sighs and goes back to bugs
[22:45] <LaserJock> crimsun: sorry dude
[22:46] <crimsun> no need to apologise.  People have differing opinions, that's all.
[22:46] <slangasek> I don't
[22:47] <LaserJock> crimsun: I don't think our opinions differ all that much
[22:47] <LaserJock> I think probably "solutions" are where we'd differ perhaps
[22:48] <LaserJock> I just don't feel like Mark's grand scheme of Universe jives with reality
[22:48] <ScottK> There is a class of contributor that are people who are doing reasonable good work and are valuable contributors, but who have not demonstrated the judgement and/or technical consistency for upload rights.
[22:49] <LaserJock> I like his idea, it's just not really where we're at
[22:49] <ScottK> Some of these people may never be ready for MOTU, but their contribution is significant, sustained, and we wouldn't want to lose it.
[22:50] <LaserJock> well, to be honest I'm not sure how much we're gonna need to worry about this stuff
[22:50] <sebner> ScottK: never because of lack of time or something else?
[22:50] <LaserJock> if Universe/Main distinction goes away
[22:50] <LaserJock> and we have per-package uploaders
[22:50] <LaserJock> I think things will be quite different
[22:50] <ScottK> sebner: That too.
[22:51] <slangasek> LaserJock: they'll be like Debian? :)
[22:51] <ScottK> LaserJock: If ...  who knows really.
[22:51] <LaserJock> true
[22:51] <LaserJock> but we should have per-package uploaders soonish
[22:52] <LaserJock> which may change some thoughts for "want to contribute but don't want to be a MOTU" people
[22:52] <ScottK> Really?
[22:52] <LaserJock> yeah, and we should be able to do our own archive admining
[22:52] <ScottK> A lot of this comes down to "Should this person have root access to my development machines".
[22:52] <LaserJock> although I'm not sure what the word on high *cough* RM *cough* is on that ;-)
[22:52] <ScottK> Effectively all the MOTU have that.
[22:53] <ScottK> Some people will never clear that barrier in my opinion.
[22:53] <slangasek> LaserJock: hmm? what's this about having per-package uploaders soonish, is there some public discussion of this?
[22:53] <slangasek> that seems like a sea change in the approach to Ubuntu maintenance
[22:53] <LaserJock> yeah
[22:53] <ScottK> LaserJock: Additionally, just because there may be LP foo coming to support such a concept, doesn't mean Ubuntu will or should embrace it.
[22:53] <LaserJock> well, the LP db schema is getting changed this month
[22:53] <persia> slangasek: It's the "Straw Man" that was under discussion about 5 months ago.
[22:54] <LaserJock> and next month code should start going in
[22:54] <LaserJock> so it's something we should look at, IMO
[22:54] <LaserJock> slangasek: have you seen the Community Admin LP spec?
[22:54] <slangasek> no
[22:54] <ScottK> Where is this?
[22:54] <LaserJock> on the super sekret LP wiki of course
[22:54] <LaserJock> ;-)
[22:55] <ScottK> Of course.
[22:55] <LaserJock> let me grab the URL of the spec though
[22:56] <LaserJock> dang it, all I get are OOPSs
[22:56] <LaserJock> https://blueprints.launchpad.net/soyuz/+spec/soyuz-community-admin
[22:57] <LaserJock> so MOTU will be able to do rebuilds on their own
[22:57] <LaserJock> we could have an archive admin team
[22:57] <persia> LaserJock: That's about component admin, not per-package uploaders.  Do you have another?
[22:57] <LaserJock> k, let me find that one
[22:58] <LaserJock> also we should have debdiffs on LP soon
[22:58] <slangasek> right, that's about archive administration, for which it's a Good Idea to be able to include community members
[22:58] <slangasek> but that's not the same thing as giving all MOTU archive admin access
[22:58] <LaserJock> slangasek: I never said *all* MOTU
[22:58] <LaserJock> although all MOTU will be able to do rebuilds
[22:58] <LaserJock> but a team can do archive admining
[22:59] <LaserJock> I wondered if MOTU Release would want/be allowed to do that
[22:59] <ScottK> As usual the details are hidden.
[23:00] <persia> Or maybe motu-release for some things, and motu-sru for others
[23:00] <LaserJock> well, there's not pocket distinction
[23:00] <LaserJock> which I asked about
[23:00]  * ScottK wonders about backports and how it fits in.
[23:00] <persia> ScottK: Consider that they are building a feature.  Later, we might use it.
[23:00] <LaserJock> cause I thought maybe motu-sru could do -proposed and -updates and motu-release everything else
[23:01] <ScottK> persia: Yes, but it's exemplary of their commitment to community involvement in their development process.
[23:01] <LaserJock> also upload karma is scheduled for next month ;-)
[23:01] <sistpoty> yay, karma! :)
[23:02] <ScottK> Ubuntu is full of developers that think the bazaar is a better place to develop than the cathedral, but then there's this odd paradigm shift that makes it a good thing for LP.
[23:02] <persia> ScottK: Maybe, although if LaserJock, as our REVU Liaison, is aware, I'm not sure that our surprise isn't also due to our lack of engagement.  Despite LP failings, I don't think we're a very good customer of the service.
[23:03] <ScottK> persia: I think complaining the customer isn't proactive about explaining what they want to a provider is rather the opposite of the way most businesses work.
[23:03] <LaserJock> well, I would think if it were most businesses we would get to even see the milestones or specs at all
[23:04] <LaserJock> that we don't get to see the details is hardly surprising, if a bit annoying
[23:04] <persia> ScottK: Hrm?  I'm just saying that we likely ought take greater advantage of our liaison, and discuss implementation on our side as well.
[23:04] <LaserJock> *wouldn't
[23:04] <ScottK> persia: Having been told my opinions on LP U/I are not credible because I think the increasing complexity of the U/I is not a good thing, I'm not thinking they are really caring at all.
[23:05] <ScottK> LaserJock: True, but they usually do some market research first.  They don't expect the customer to hunt them down and explain what they want.
[23:05] <persia> ScottK: Right.  I don't mean to be an LP apologist, only I don't think the answer to "LP is bad at community coordination" is "lets ignore LP", but rather "lets improve our LP liaison process, since we use LP every day".
[23:06] <ScottK> persia: I don't think the burden is on our end.
[23:06] <ScottK> I don't see the point in talking to a brick wall.
[23:06] <LaserJock> well, I see both ends really
[23:06] <LaserJock> they have always been very open and helpful to me
[23:07] <LaserJock> but regular, day-to-day communication between Ubuntu developers and LP developers could be improved
[23:07] <persia> ScottK: I think it's heavy, and if we can help lift a bit more, maybe this would encourage our counterparties to lift a bit more.
[23:07] <LaserJock> most of the times when I've talked to LP devs they have indicated they are kinda starving for info on how users use LP
[23:07] <ScottK> Alternatively, when I have cared about making LP sucking less, there is so much suckage it can be pretty consuming.
[23:08] <ScottK> LaserJock: Then they shouldn't tell users their opinions aren't credible unless they agree the U/I is good.
[23:08] <LaserJock> well, I can't really speak to that
[23:08] <LaserJock> I've never been told my opinion was not credible
[23:08] <ScottK> I have.
[23:09] <ScottK> The reason it's not credible is because everyone knows CSS is better than tables.
[23:09] <LaserJock> well, it depends a lot on who you talk to
[23:09] <sebner> gn8 folks :)
[23:09] <LaserJock> in LP, as in every community, there are more aggressive/abrasive types
[23:09] <ScottK> So because the old U/I was built on a crusty infrastructure and the new one is cool, it must be better.
[23:10] <LaserJock> persia: https://bugs.launchpad.net/soyuz/+bug/134456
[23:10] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 134456 in soyuz "Soyuz needs package-specific uploaders" [Medium,In progress]
[23:11] <ScottK> That and about the same time someone else was re-writing one of my bugs to be something different and then telling me that I needed to write a new bug about what I'd originally written the bug about.
[23:11] <ScottK> I gave up.
[23:11] <persia> LaserJock: Ah.  Thanks.  Personally, I think that may be as much about the restrictions for targeted core-dev as anything MOTU, but it could also be used for other things.
[23:12] <LaserJock> persia: well, it's per-package uploaders
[23:12] <persia> LaserJock: Yep.  Hence "Thanks" :)
[23:12] <LaserJock> say for Scott Ritchie for instance?
[23:13] <LaserJock> when we were considering the "if you only work on a single package should you be a MOTU" thing
[23:13] <LaserJock> seems like it'd be both easier on the contributor and the MC if that was an available option
[23:14] <persia> LaserJock: I was thinking more of Tim Gardner, but sure.
[23:14] <LaserJock> hmm
[23:14] <LaserJock> I guess I can kinda see that
[23:14] <LaserJock> though presumably Canonical people will want core-dev anyway
[23:15] <LaserJock> but it would allow them to get working faster in any case
[23:16] <persia> Right, and having them be able to have tightly restricted upload access to main as part of core-dev without having done MOTU means they can do that.
[23:16] <persia> (although it ought be just as true for any community developers interested in primarily main packages as it is for Canonical people)
[23:16] <ScottK> Most people I've asked about it use typing the url as their primary method of navigating in LP.  Of course the U/I is great.
[23:17]  * ScottK needs to run.
[23:17] <slangasek> pff, typing.  tab-complete!
[23:17] <ScottK> Typing + url history, yes.
[23:17] <ScottK> See you later.
[23:18] <LaserJock> persia: though it does lead to me wondering why people wouldn't just become MOTUs/Core-Devs
[23:18] <LaserJock> it kinda seems like a workaround
[23:18] <LaserJock> though I guess DM would seem like that too
[23:19] <persia> LaserJock: That's why I picked on Tim.  He was approved as core without having been MOTU, and was given an initial voluntary restriction on packages of interest (kernel and related).  I don't know if the restriction still applies.
[23:19] <LaserJock> I don't know, my brain is kinda fried right now
[23:20] <persia> Essentially, MOTU would have been fairly useless for a kernel developer, from an entitlements point of view, and it would be nice to allow such people to get access to the things that interest them (once they show history of good work) without forcing them to do stuff that doesn't interest them just to get accepted.
[23:20] <LaserJock> I go between "hmm, if you can be trusted to upload specific packages shouldn't you be trusted with the whole component"
[23:20] <LaserJock> and "we shouldn't let people in based just on technical ability"
[23:21] <LaserJock> for sure
[23:21] <sistpoty> oh, geser: you're a list admin of -motu, right? there should be a mail in the queue from me... maybe it might also make sense to whitelist my work address?
[23:21] <slangasek> persia: mdz has stated that experienced developers with a background in .deb packaging should feel free to apply directly to core-dev without regarding MOTU as some sort of hurdle to pass
[23:21] <LaserJock> it's becoming clear that the "become a MOTU to become a Core Dev" is quite weird
[23:21] <persia> Another interesting use case for per-package uploaders would be to allow Debian Maintainers to upload their packages to Ubuntu.
[23:22] <sistpoty> slangasek: imo going through motu is a good thing still, as it imho has helped to bring motu and core-devs more closely together
[23:22] <LaserJock> slangasek: well, frankly that sounds like mdz the CTO talking
[23:22] <persia> slangasek: Sure, but Tim is an interesting precedent of what happens in that case.
[23:23] <slangasek> sistpoty: well, I think I would like for there to be ways of accomplishing that which don't involve jumping through hoops? :)
[23:23] <slangasek> LaserJock: I can't tell the difference between the CTO hat and the TB hat in this light ;P
[23:24] <LaserJock> slangasek: "convenient to Canonical" vs "what's good for Ubuntu"
[23:24] <LaserJock> he used to say that people needed to go through MOTU
[23:25] <LaserJock> but once he had enough of his employees trying to go through  MOTUship it seems to have changed a bit
[23:25] <sistpoty> slangasek: well, it also means s.th. like to get at least partially known with motu processes... of course there's no guarantee that the hoop will accomplish that and in an ideal world it wouldn't be needed, yes
[23:25] <slangasek> LaserJock: I think not imposing artificial barriers to contribution for folks able to pass muster at the core-dev level is good for Ubuntu; what do you think?
[23:25] <slangasek> (I also think the Debian NM process is broken)
[23:26] <LaserJock> slangasek: I would agree pretty much
[23:26] <persia> LaserJock: I have to agree that going through MOTU doesn't make sense for everyone (e.g. kernel devs, printing devs, etc.).
[23:26] <LaserJock> slangasek: but I don't think that's why he's saying it, IMO
[23:26] <LaserJock> persia: sure, but that's always been true
[23:26] <LaserJock> I'm not arguing that it should be one way or the other
[23:27] <LaserJock> I'm saying there seems to be a change in Ubuntu "policy" that was motivated by Canonical's needs
[23:28] <LaserJock> not that that's particularly bad either, but it can be a tad confusing
[23:28] <persia> I didn't think MOTU was ever required for core-dev, although for things like the desktop team, I think it is valuable.
[23:28] <LaserJock> when I started that's the way it was
[23:29] <LaserJock> they'd do "insta-MOTU" kinds of things, but you still had to be MOTU
[23:29] <persia> Hmm.  There were plenty of core-devs who weren't MOTU when I started.  Perhaps the perceived policy wavered over time?
[23:29] <slangasek> LaserJock: well, the opportunity to persuade him that the policy should change for /other/ reasons has long passed, so we're left with a rather non-falsifiable claim about his mental state that I can't see it benefits anyone to dwell on... :)
[23:30] <slangasek> if anything, let's find the things that are *wrong* for the wrong reasons and focus on those :)
[23:30] <LaserJock> well, yeah, that's true
[23:30] <LaserJock> persia: for sure, seemingly wavering more with each new Canonical employee ;-)
[23:32] <LaserJock> it's the hard part of having unwritten traditions
[23:32] <LaserJock> people start "forgetting"
[23:32] <persia> Maybe.  I think there was a drive to move towards "process" around Dapper that is again being relaxed.
[23:32] <LaserJock> though it makes for a much less "bureaucratic" feel
[23:32] <LaserJock> kinda yeah
[23:33] <geser> sistpoty: done
[23:33] <sistpoty> geser: thanks a lot :)
[23:34] <sistpoty> geser: oh, and maybe you should change the pw over time.. (I've found out this afternoon, that I still know it... but of course didn't do anything there) *g*
[23:35] <norsetto> g'night all
[23:36] <geser> sistpoty: I just got forwarded the mail with the password for the lists when I joined MC
[23:36] <geser> will talk with the MC about it
[23:36] <sistpoty> geser: heh... strange enough I always forget my own passwords, but never those I know from somewhere else *g*
[23:37] <geser> sistpoty: let others set your passwords :)
[23:37] <sistpoty> heh
[23:40] <persia> Actually, as long as you hide the resource to which the password is set, you ought be safe.
[23:40] <persia> (assuming you have sufficient password-protected resources that brute-force is unlikely to be a quick solution)
[23:41] <geser> good night
[23:43] <sistpoty> gn8 geser
[23:45] <sistpoty> hm... if I want apps from a chroot to access X, what do I have to bind mount? (currently I have /tmp /proc and /sys)
[23:47] <sistpoty> oh, found it, needed to export DISPLAY