/srv/irclogs.ubuntu.com/2008/04/26/#kubuntu-devel.txt

=== gnomefre1k is now known as gnomefreak
datI've just been trying to set up avahi and the enable_avahi script is missing from /usr/share/avahi - does anyone know where I can get it from?02:13
datI figured out that all it does is write a line to /etc/default/avahi-daemon and then start the init.d process which I have done and can't see my other machines services let alone this machines02:37
sophiemghola03:24
sophiemgalguien me puede ayudar en una tarea?03:25
stdin!es03:25
ubotuAquí solamente hablamos inglés. Para Español, por favor entre en los canales #ubuntu-es o #kubuntu-es - allí obtendrá más ayuda.03:25
e-uoaphysis kubuntu 8.04 using kde4, or kde3 default?04:13
stdindefault is kde304:20
nixternaldefault is whatever you download :p05:02
nixternalyou download Kubuntu 8.04 you get KDE, you download the Remix, you get KDE 405:03
nixternaland who in their right mind enjoys doing a code walkthrough?05:03
ScottKWhen it's someone else's crap code and you don't like them?05:09
ScottKIs there a metapackage for all the kde4 games?05:13
stdinkdegames-kde4 ?05:14
* ScottK tries05:15
stdinwell, that seems exist anyway05:15
* stdin should really know05:15
ScottKYep.  That was it.05:16
ScottKThanks.05:17
stdin:)05:18
nixternalScottK: actually all of the code was very well written...funny thing is I wrote a module where it reviewed high, but my brain was toast, and I was feeling e.tarded05:24
nixternalI couldn't make sense of my own comments..just needed sleep05:24
ScottKK.  Just offering that as a scenario that might be fun.05:26
ScottKSpeaking of needing sleep ...05:26
ScottKGood night all.05:26
nixternalScottK: ahh, just totally grasped what you said up there...that would be fun :)  anywho, g'nite to you as well05:46
=== wolfger_ is now known as wolfger
mhbis it me or do we need a good theme for KDE4 KDM?11:12
jpatrickkwwii: ^11:12
mhbwell11:12
mhbwe cannot count on him, he is too busy with his job11:12
mhbbut I meant in general11:12
mhblook around, see what is available, do some branding...11:13
mhbperhaps offer a bit similar look to what Ubuntu is offering11:13
* mhb has to check how gdm actually looks like these days11:13
mhbjpatrick: how are you doing these days?11:17
jpatrickmhb: not too good, but surviving11:18
mhbjpatrick: hmm, bad11:19
jpatrickmhb: am loving coding in Python tho, how about yourself?11:19
mhbjpatrick: I am not doing much coding recently, a bit C sharp, but I am not liking that :o)11:22
jpatrickmhb: I have to do VB at school, but I always have firefox in the background with docs.python.org opened11:23
mhbjpatrick: VB is even more evil than C Sharp11:26
jpatrickso true11:26
mhbjpatrick: so you are coming to UDS?11:26
jpatrickmhb: hopefully, depends on when the money comes, but I'm doing what I can11:27
mhbjpatrick: splendid! What are your plans for intrepid? Meaning stuff you want to take part of yourself...11:27
jpatrickmhb: hmm, haven't really thought of it yet..11:29
mhbokay11:30
jpatrickmhb: hopefully some coding :)11:31
jpatrickbut with no internet at home, things get tricky.11:33
mhbwell that is not true :-)11:33
mhbI was also coding without internet for some time11:34
mhbyou can install all the documentation you need as packages11:34
mhbpython, qt3, qt4... you name it11:34
jpatrickah, that reminds me11:34
jpatrickwell, library's closing.. best be off.. :(11:36
mhbsee you11:37
* jpatrick has all docs waiting for him11:37
jpatrickmhb: ps. some example code of mine ;) http://www.cli-apps.org/content/show.php?content=7967811:38
* mhb checks it out11:39
mhbinteresting11:41
* jpatrick uses it basically to store his passwords 'safely'11:41
jpatrickbye for now11:45
mhbbye11:46
TimSWo edits the website? They have the link to the English DVD ISO server wrong.13:02
TimSwho*13:02
TimSIt should be http://www.mirrorservice.org/sites/cdimage.ubuntu.com/cdimage/kubuntu/releases/8.04/release/13:02
jjessemorning :)13:31
ligemegetGood morning :)13:32
ligemeget(well... aftenoon actually..)13:32
jjessehello ligemeget13:32
=== Timmy is now known as TimS
ligemegetmy hat's off to the Kubuntu website - even though I don't like some of the colors, in terms of news and general design it still pwns ubuntu.com :)13:36
jjessei know they are working on making some further changes to it13:36
ligemegetReading the mailing list, I've gotten the impression that the kubuntu-devs were relatively short on manpower..?13:38
ligemegetSorry, got kicked off while installing kubuntu-desktop :)13:43
Nightroseligemeget: we could use a helping hand, yes ;-)13:53
ligemegetNightrose, I'm about to get used to Kubuntu - then I may introduce myself to the devel-list. Although I really don't know really much programming yet (unfortunately mostly Java) I'm willing to read up on it :)13:54
Nightrose:) great13:54
Nightroseyou can also do packaging, documentation, bug hunting for example13:54
Nightroseif you don't want to program13:55
ligemegetBut I want to program, actually - since it's what I'm studying, so I guess helping out Kubuntu would be great learning13:56
ligemegetAlso, is your Documentation part of the ubuntu-docs team?13:56
jjessebug hunting would be great as well13:56
jjesseligemeget: yes it is13:56
jjessemyself and nixternal head up the documetnation for kubuntu13:57
jjesseas part of uuntu-docs13:57
ligemegetdo you also use help.ubuntu.com wiki?13:57
jjesseyes13:57
devilsadvocate_i had a question about bug triaging : what does it take for a bugs status to change to Confirmed?13:57
ligemegetokay - then I could probably do something there as well13:58
ligemegetdevilsadvocat_: If someone else than the reporter is able to reproduce the bug13:58
ligemeget(...I think)13:58
Nightrosedevilsadvocate_: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/Status13:58
ligemegetbrb, reboot to KDE :D13:59
=== mp__ is now known as ligemeget
ligemegetthere14:11
ligemegetlovely14:11
ligemegetNow Amarok is in KDE, where it belongs :)14:11
TimSAny doc guys here?14:16
jjessedid TimS leave?15:00
Nightroseyes15:01
Nightrosebut still in #kde-docs15:02
ScottKjjesse: RE your blog post on external monitors: You might ask bryce if your driver/X support what you are trying to do.  He can probably give you a hint on which way to get it done.15:10
=== mcas|away is now known as mcas
jjesseScottK: thanks it would be disappointing if i can't, one of the reasons i still keep iwndows on my laptop15:10
ScottKHe just started a wiki page on configuring X and it'd be a useful addition if you could come up with a HOWTO once you've got it.15:10
jjessewould love to write it up15:10
jjessei hate "sharing" my desktopw hen i use a projector15:11
ScottKSo tell him that and ask for some pointers.15:11
jjessecause when i teach during the lab time i'm usually doing other things that i don't want to disaply to all the students15:11
fdovingjjesse: then you need a projector-laptop and a secret-websurfing-during-class laptop :)15:23
jjessefdoving: yeah that would be nice wouldn't it :)15:29
nixternalmornin' Kubuntu'ites!16:22
JucatoKubuntites :)16:25
Jucato(like Canaanites and Hittites :)16:25
nixternalhehe16:25
Jucatonixternal:  I might ask you next week what doc-type projects we have planned for Kubuntu :)16:29
nixternalJucato: how about an entire rewrite for Kubuntu docs?16:31
JucatoO.o16:31
Jucatowow16:31
nixternalwhich we could definitely use your help on16:31
nixternalwe have to do KDE 4 docs for Kubuntu, and on top of that, I have about 50 docs to write for KDE 416:31
Jucatosure. since I've realized and convinced myself that I suck at debian packaging, and my C++ fu is not up to par... I think I can help with docs a bit16:32
nixternalso start playing with docbook now, because I am putting you to work for Intrepid16:32
Jucatolol I might use a different system :P16:32
nixternalI could care less what you use honestly :)16:32
* Jucato is trying to avoid learning docbook directly first :P16:32
Jucatoasciidoc actually... then output to docbook16:32
nixternaldocbook is easy...it is like learning html16:32
Jucatooh that's the perfect statement to discourage me :)16:33
nixternalahh, I haven't played with asciidoc yet, but I hear people talking about it16:33
Jucatosince I just realized that I desperately needed to upgrade my brain to XHTML 1.1 and CSS2 :)16:33
nixternalI would love to have a functioning moinmoin -> docbook plugin16:33
nixternalbut that hasn't happened in 2 years16:33
nixternalCSS2? CSS3 will be out in the next year or so16:34
Jucatonixternal: CSS1 was my last glance at the beast :P16:34
nixternalheh, I suck at CSS honestly, I just poke around until it works16:34
Jucatooh and I'd love an html->docbook converter.. maybe asciidoc will be my panacea :)16:34
nixternalI think we should write docs in LaTeX16:34
nixternalI think my new favorite app is Kile16:35
JucatoKile and Kate :)16:35
nixternalspeaking of Kate, I need to finish writing the xml plugins for Kate 416:35
nixternalhttp://giss.tv:8000/guademy.ogg16:36
nixternalthey are talking about Akonadi16:36
nixternalwstephenson that is16:36
Jucatoheheh good he didn't get booed out :P16:37
Jucatoare you attending akadec/gaudemy if it ever happens?16:37
nixternalgaudemy is going on right now16:38
nixternalthat is a live link16:38
Jucatooh right16:39
nixternalhaha, developers, developers, developers!16:39
Jucatohm.. guademy. that's not the planned Akademy + Guadec in one place right?16:39
Jucatoat least not yet?16:39
nixternalumm, I think so16:40
Jucatobecause the call for suggestions was for 2009... now I'm confused :)16:40
Jucatoanyway...  :)16:40
nixternalhrmm, there is another one they are working on as well16:40
nixternalGuademy is quit small, I think 110 people max16:40
Jucatoah ok. different one then16:40
nixternalquite16:41
nixternalcan't speel this morning16:41
Jucatoovbiousyl16:42
Jucatoer. obvsiously16:42
nixternalhaha16:42
Jucatohm...16:42
Jucatoright.. I'm sleepy :)16:42
apacheloggerladies and gentleman, I present you: Kubuntu 8.04's worst bug17:03
apacheloggerbug #20334917:03
ubotuLaunchpad bug 203349 in language-pack-kde-ru "Broken plural forms in KDE" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/20334917:03
apacheloggerThis astonishing bug is effecting _all_ language packs and at least 4 of our stock KDE 3 applications17:05
apacheloggerIt indeed deserves the title "Worst Bug"17:05
apacheloggerand it makes me wonder whether it makes any sense besides breaking... to import already translated applications into rosetta17:06
ScottKI just filed my first KDE4 bug.  KDE Bug 16130817:06
ubotuKDE bug 161308 in general "Number of games played increments both when a game is started and when a game ends" [Normal,Unconfirmed] http://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=16130817:06
smarterapachelogger: worksforme with Frenchy KDE17:07
apacheloggersmarter: in amarok?17:08
smarterapachelogger: no problem17:10
apacheloggercool, but strange17:11
smarteroh, I just found it17:12
* apachelogger purges the french languagepack again :P17:13
smarterI didn't see it before because I was listening to a lastfm flux, and you can't edit them17:13
apacheloggeric17:14
smarterwell, it's not that bad17:14
smarterat least in amarok, it's only one right-click item which has this bug17:15
=== kitterma is now known as ScottK2
smarterand I remember having this bug(in Amarok too) some times ago17:17
smarterI'm not sure if it has been reintroduced recently or if it was always there17:17
apacheloggersmarter: in dolphin it's the statusbar17:17
apacheloggerwhich is visible all the time17:17
ScottK2Riddell: Are you aware of http://www.kde.org/info/security/advisory-20080426-2.txt17:17
smarterapachelogger: no problem with the status bar17:17
apacheloggerand that amarok right click menu is the most used one I think17:17
smarterdolphin3 ?17:17
smarterd3lphin actually17:17
apacheloggersmarter: only happens on delete or something17:17
apachelogger...only KDE 3 apps are imported into rosetta ;-)17:18
smarterI created and deleted a file and no problem17:18
smarterbut you should test with alpha 2 or 3, I'm sure this bug has happened before and maybe it has been corrected and reintroduced recently17:21
apacheloggerhappens in de17:22
apacheloggerinteressting17:23
apacheloggerit doesn't happen in fr17:23
smarterwith what app?17:23
apacheloggerd3lphin17:23
smarteryes, I saw  the bug for Adept some times ago too17:24
smarterbut I don't remember having it with KTorrent17:24
ligemegetapachelogger, I can confirm it in da17:25
ligemegetI was actually discussing it w/ other translators in another channel earlier - we thought it was our fault :)17:26
apacheloggerligemeget: did you only notice in amarok or d3lphin as well?17:27
ligemegetapachelogger, where in d3lphin?17:30
apacheloggerligemeget: dolphin, the file manager17:30
ligemegetI've only got Dolphin 0.9.217:31
apacheloggerkde 3 version is called d3lphin17:31
apacheloggeryes17:31
apacheloggerthat one :P17:31
ligemegetah, ok17:31
apacheloggerligemeget: if you just open it17:31
apacheloggerin the statusbar17:31
apacheloggersmarter: fr for d3lphin is correct indeed17:31
apacheloggerI am wondering why though17:31
ligemegetapachelogger, in the bottom status bar it just says "19 items (11 Folders, 8 Files)" - it's not even translated!17:32
smarterligemeget: translated here, blame the translators ;)17:32
apacheloggerah17:32
apacheloggeroh17:32
apacheloggerCurrent German[0]: Copy text 17:32
apacheloggerEin Element#17:32
apacheloggerCurrent German[1]:     17:32
apachelogger(no translation yet)17:32
apacheloggerEnglish singular:    Copy text   17:33
apachelogger1 Item17:33
apacheloggerthis would mean17:33
apacheloggersmarter: I think that issue is even far more complex than I thought17:33
apacheloggerit appears for amarok in every language apparently17:34
ligemegetshall I add language-pack-kde-da to the bug?17:34
apacheloggerbecause amarok is having the same string as non-plural and as singular form for a plural combination17:34
apacheloggerligemeget: I already did, you can just add a comment about it17:34
apacheloggerand17:35
apacheloggerif there is no plural translation for a string which should be plural form17:35
apacheloggerrosetta only exports the non-plural translation17:35
apacheloggerwhich breaks the syntax17:35
smarterapachelogger: maybe we should ask the devs in #launchpad17:37
smarterbut why does it only affects kde3 apps?17:37
apacheloggersmarter: because we don't import KDE 4 apps into rosetta right now17:37
apacheloggerI think at least ;-)17:38
smarteryes, but the gnome/xfce folks don't seem to have any problem17:38
apacheloggerKDE has a special way of handling the plural stuff AFAIK17:38
apacheloggerearlier rosetta didn't even recognize it as plural forms which lead to most awesome broken translations as well17:39
smarterugh17:39
smartergo in #launchpad and kill someone ;)17:39
apacheloggernone around right now17:40
apacheloggerfirst I will aggregate more information17:40
apacheloggerand this stuff needs to be topic for UDS17:40
ligemegetAnyone here who can open http://www.rommedahlen.dk/musik/Wongraven.mp3 ?17:40
apacheloggerthe whole rosetta import is causing mostly issues17:41
apacheloggermay it be because rosetta fcks something up17:41
apacheloggeror because the language teams change translations17:41
apacheloggerI really see no reason for the latter17:41
apacheloggerKDE is having pretty strong QA for l10n17:41
apacheloggersmarter: intressting fact, in upstream d3lphin msgid "1 Item" and msgid "%1 Items" are 2 seperate strings17:43
apacheloggerand not a plural combination17:43
smarterwe shouldn't use LP for l10n in the first place imho...17:43
apachelogger---> we <--- indeed shouldn't17:44
apacheloggerit makes sense for upstream projects17:44
apacheloggerlike when d3lphin chooses to use rosetta for translation it's ok17:45
apacheloggerbut there is absolutely no reason why we, as distributor, should modify translations unless they are completely wrong17:45
ligemegetThe Danish Amarok translation blows IMHO, but I'm taking that complaint elsewhere :)17:46
apacheloggerda     0     0     0     100 %17:46
apacheloggerbut complete :D17:46
apacheloggerhttp://aplg.kollide.net/amarok/l10n/amarok-1.4.9.1.html17:46
NightroseIMHO it is a waste of workforce (unless you hope they will get from translation to other parts of *ubuntu)17:46
apacheloggerNightrose: at it's best it is limiting workforce17:47
apacheloggerwhen someone translates a new application to german, while upstream doesn't even have one17:47
apacheloggerit makes some sort of sense for us17:47
smarterwhat is a "fuzzy" string?17:47
Nightroseapachelogger: yea sure17:47
apacheloggerbut who will push it upstream?17:47
apacheloggernone does17:47
nixternalI added info to the team report for us - anything you can think of that you feel needs to be added, speak up now or forever hold your peace17:47
* smarter only knows fuzzy pop17:47
apacheloggerso it is highly unsocial17:47
apacheloggersmarter: fuzzy strings are kind of translations which need a review17:48
smarterok, thanks17:48
apacheloggerfor example when I change an exisitng string in Amarok, existing translations which will be marked fuzzy so the translators review it whether they need to change the translation as well17:48
apacheloggernixternal: KDE 4 is tha awesomest17:49
nixternalRiddell: for Intrepid I say we maintain a team report page where we can update it as we hack on stuff, making it easier to transfer to the community page17:50
nixternalI will setup a wiki page just for it - time we start collaborating a little more outside of IRC :)17:50
* ScottK2 barely manages status reports for paid work when they are contractually required. The odds of me doing on a volunteer basis aren't very high.17:51
nixternalScottK2: you are the one I really wanted status stuff from actually in regards to guidance because you busted your ass on it17:52
nixternalall i put on the report was 'Guidance fixes' :)  couldn't remember them all17:52
smarternixternal: aptitude changelog kde-guidance17:53
nixternalsmarter: your name fits you well, cuz that didn't even pop into my head as of yet :)17:53
ScottK2nixternal: I did a lot on that, but awen did quite a bit and smarter's contribution was quite important too.17:54
smarternixternal: thanks ;)17:55
ScottK2nixternal: For displayconfig, the short version is took it from non-functional and crashing with modern Xorg and display adapters to generally functional for single screen configurations.17:56
ScottK2awen got brightness control to be generally working and reliable.17:56
ScottK2All of the guidance modules seem to be pretty stable.17:56
ScottK2That wasn't always the case.17:56
ScottK2Also got apport fixed so it wouldn't crash when trying to report guidance crashes so we actually were getting bugs when bud stuff happend.17:57
nixternalok, added all of that17:58
ScottK2I'd leave out the bit about accidentally changing the api and causing about half a dozen other packages to start breaking the week before the RC.17:59
smarter:P17:59
smarternixternal: and I got it not to stop working when HAL is restarted(happens when it's upgraded)17:59
nixternalI added all of the changelog stuff for april, except for the part where pitti reversed one of our patches :)18:00
nixternalkeep the "oops, our bad" stuff out of there :)18:00
nixternalpolitican rocks!18:00
ScottK2smarter: Good point about the hal stuff.18:00
txwikingerWenn will the first intrepid repo be available?18:01
ScottK2Generally it's 2 -3 weeks after release.18:03
=== neversfelde_ is now known as neversfelde
ligemegetIn other news: Kopete-Windows Live Messenger cannot send/receive files18:05
yuriyanyone want to consider bug 222141 a bug?18:05
ubotuLaunchpad bug 222141 in kdepim "Color of Items changed after upgrade" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/22214118:05
nixternalScottK2: didn't they open the tool chain right about UDS time last release?18:08
nixternalactually, I think they had the toolchain in place before UDS18:08
ScottK2Yes, but UDS was closer to release.18:08
nixternaltxwikinger: also keep an eye on lists.ubuntu.com, when you see the intrepid-changes list, the toolchain has begun :)18:08
ScottK2UDS was ~2 weeks after release, not a nearly a month.18:08
txwikingernixternal: will do18:09
nixternalScottK2: that is true18:09
nixternalScottK2: you going to this UDS?18:09
txwikingerIs it already decided where the UDS in fall will be?18:10
nixternalyup18:10
ScottK2nixternal: Yes.18:10
nixternaldamn you :)18:10
nixternaljono and jcastro were telling me to pay my parking tickets so I can get my passport :)18:11
ligemegetwhere?18:11
nixternaltell Canonical to pay them :p18:11
nixternalligemeget: where what?18:11
yuriythis UDS is in a month?18:11
nixternalyuriy: ya18:11
nixternalin Prague, mhb's backyard18:11
ligemegetJust curious about the UDS :)18:11
ligemegetah18:12
txwikingernixternal: where?18:12
nixternalthe next UDS? no clue, that won't be announced for about another 4 months18:13
txwikingerAh18:13
txwikingerwell.. I don't know where I will be at that time either :D18:13
nixternalwe sent Claire a proposal for the University of Illinois @ Chicago, but they said "nah, thanks anyways" :)18:13
nixternaltypically they do the spring/1st quarter UDS in Europe and the fall/4th quarter UDS in the US...hopefully it stays that way :)18:14
* nixternal goes to O'Hare18:17
nixternalcya18:17
yao_ziyuanhave to say a bug :)19:50
yao_ziyuanin kubuntu you create a new user but it can't log into a new kde session19:50
yao_ziyuanin a gnome desktop you can create such a new user19:50
yao_ziyuani mean 8.0419:51
karaluhhello19:59
andrew_I am having problems with nfs-client.  Anyone know what's wrong ?19:59
coreymon77andrew_: devel != support19:59
andrew_nfs reports "internal error"20:00
karaluhcoreymon77: i'm here20:01
coreymon77karaluh: ya, im not a developer, i jsut hang around here20:03
coreymon77:P20:03
karaluhok, so i'll ask here20:03
andrew_A server20:04
karaluhafter upgrade i've got unbootable 2.6.24 kernel20:04
coreymon77andrew_: development does not mean support, youd be better off asking in the regular #kubuntu channel20:04
karaluhit gives kernel panic VFS unable to mount root20:05
karaluhold gutsy kernel drops to busybox without any disk devices20:06
karaluhi reverted 2.6.22 initramfs to the one gutsy generated and it went ok20:07
karaluhthen i did update-initramfs the 2.6.22 which also worked20:08
karaluhbut the 2.6.24 doesn't work20:08
karaluhi've tried both generic and 38620:09
fdovinghah, adept dist-upgrader is smart. it tells me i'm upgrading over ssh and starts an extra ssh daemon just in case. impressive :)21:23
ugafdoving: and what happens if it needs to upgrade sshd in the process?21:48
fdovingsshd will be upgraded. but it won't be restarted without first asking.21:49
fdovingatleast that is true in debian, and i hope this feature also is available in the graphical client.21:49
ugaah nice21:50
fdovings/client/dist-upgrader/21:50
=== _krawek_ is now known as krawek
mhbapachelogger: you here?22:16
apacheloggerNightrose: am I here?22:17
mhbapachelogger: your blog post was quite confusing, to say the least :-)22:17
Nightroseyou are apachelogger22:17
apacheloggermhb: I am22:17
Nightrosemhb: but good22:17
Nightrose;-)22:17
apacheloggermhb: as long as tristan gets it :P22:17
jussio1hehe22:17
mhbwell the first thing I thought when I read it was: 2 days before Ubuntu releases? that means we won't be able to get the latest amarok in22:18
mhbor is that just an ironic joke I didn't get?22:18
mhbapachelogger: please explain :-)22:20
smarterIs there something real in what you say?(e.g. two releases by year)22:21
mhbI also wonder22:22
Nightrosemhb: http://useopensource.blogspot.com/2008/04/synching-open-source-release-schedule.html22:23
Nightrosein case you have not seen it22:23
apacheloggersmarter: we usually have 4-6 releases per year22:24
smarterso, I can safely ignore that blog post? ;)22:24
apacheloggerand usually 2 of them are just before kubuntu goes in freeze and at least 1 other is by request from another distribution22:24
apacheloggersmarter: yes22:24
mhbwell there's no amarok2 for how long? :-)22:24
mhbif you just ported amarok1 to KDE4 and then started refactoring the code and adding features one by one...22:25
mhbbut oh well, it seems you know everything so well that you can afford to write sarcastic replies, unlike us mortals22:25
apacheloggermhb: would it still not have been finished within 6 months22:25
apacheloggeralso22:25
apacheloggeradding features one by one is really really hard when you have to relay on the amarok1 base22:26
apacheloggerbecause it is crap22:26
mhbyou wrote it .o)22:26
apacheloggermhb: started in 200222:26
mhbdon't forget the "second system effect"22:26
apacheloggermhb: ?22:26
mhbthat's when you write something good, but you see all those flaws, so you start anew on a "second system" by trying to evade all your previous mistakes22:27
mhbthe result tends to be much, much worse22:27
mhbhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_system_effect22:28
mhbefers to the tendency to design the successor to a relatively small, elegant, and successful system as an elephantine, feature-laden monstrosity.22:28
mhband I must admit amarok1 was relatively small, elegant... and definitely successful22:29
mhband all those plasmoids and SVGs...22:29
mhbwell, I haven't made this rule up :-)22:29
apacheloggerthat saied22:29
apacheloggeryou are not target user group22:29
* Nightrose has the feeling mhb has "new=bad" somewhere tatooed on his back ;-)22:30
apacheloggerI think we should everyone to a marketing workshop one day22:30
Nightrosehehe good idea22:30
mhbNightrose: did I write that article? :-) I tend to be skeptical, yes22:30
Nightroseapachelogger: let's do one at the next uds22:30
mhbapachelogger: of course, I'm not22:30
apacheloggerNightrose: yes22:30
mhbapachelogger: the problem with feature-laden monstrosities is, nobody is22:30
smarterSVGs and plasmoids don't seem badly designed, maybe a bit slow22:30
apacheloggersmarter: should be improving with qt 4.422:31
smarterI've seen that22:31
smarterQt 4.3 + KDE 4.0 == unusable here22:31
apacheloggermhb: market analysis don't agree with you22:31
smarterQt 4.4 + KDE 4.1 == almost as fast as KDE 3.522:31
mhbapachelogger: which good project has started as a market analysis? :-22:32
mhb:-)22:32
apacheloggermhb: amarok222:32
apacheloggerNightrose: what was the overall comment on amarok2 @ cebit?22:33
mhbUNIX was never a market analysis, google in its roots was just a bunch of young guys22:33
Nightroseapachelogger: amarok 2 = awesome22:33
mhbthey ended up big22:33
apacheloggerright22:33
Nightrosemhb: you still have to know what your target audience is22:34
apacheloggeramarok just started22:34
mhbnot because their target users were happy22:34
jussio1is amarok 2 in hardy?22:34
Nightroseotherwise you will screw up22:34
apacheloggerno audience and crap22:34
apacheloggerbaby steps, right?22:34
mhbNightrose: like those guys did, right? :-)22:34
mhbNightrose: or Linus, he also cared about the market22:34
Nightrosemhb: I am sure they knew exactly who they are doing it for22:34
mhbNightrose: in the end, he screwed up big time :-)22:34
apacheloggermhb: maybe you should write a mail to linus22:34
mhbright, I should write to him about how he's not targetting the audience correctly22:35
apacheloggerwhether he cares about the market or he just does whatever he feels like even if it breaks kernel big time22:35
smarter:D22:35
Nightrosejussio1: probably only the techpreview which is outdated22:35
mhbI'm sure he'd agree with you too22:35
apacheloggermhb: he is22:35
apacheloggerbig time actually22:35
jussio1Nightrose: / apachelogger where can I get a current .deb ?22:35
fdovingmhb: i vote for you :)22:36
smarterjussio1: amarok2 current deb?22:36
apacheloggerjussi01: not at all22:36
smarterthere's a PPA22:36
jussio1:/22:36
jussio1smarter: there is?22:36
smarteryes22:36
apacheloggerthere is?22:36
jussio1how up to date is it?22:36
smarterhttp://ppa.launchpad.net/amarok-nightly/ubuntu22:37
smarterI don't use it so I don't really know22:38
apacheloggerout of date22:38
jussio1cool22:38
apacheloggerand broken22:38
jussio1oh...22:38
jussio1:/22:38
apacheloggerespecially broken22:38
mhbapachelogger: don't forget about what made you popular in the first place22:40
apacheloggermhb: so you suggest we should forget about the biggest market and make the nerds geeks happy?22:41
mhbapachelogger: by concentrating on converting some other user bases from the XYZ music player to Amarok2, you'll not only fail in doing it, you'll lose your current popularity, too22:41
mhbI'm sure the people at Netscape were all "target audience" too, when Mozilla started to dominate them22:42
mhbthey were only catching up... and you know how it ends22:42
jussio1nerd geeks ftw!22:42
apacheloggermhb: haha22:43
apacheloggerultimately22:43
apacheloggerkubuntu/ubuntu is already dead22:43
apacheloggerbecause it is targeting for a market which is filled with a gigantic thing fullfilling all the target audience needs22:43
apacheloggerI hereby suggest a change of target audience for UDS22:43
apacheloggerwe should make kubuntu a dev environment22:44
apacheloggermuch easier to be successful there22:44
mhbright, actually... we don't care about what our userbase is22:44
mhbwe don't care about potential users that would switch if we were 100% the same like Windows22:44
apacheloggermhb: you are suggesting amarok2 is 100% like itunes or wmp?22:45
mhbyou could *never* make those happy. Same with Amarok2.22:45
mhbno, it'll never have the flawless HW integration iTunes have... as for wmp, I don't use that at all.22:45
Nightrosewhy will it never?22:46
Nightrosebecause itunes forces vendor lockin on its users?22:46
apacheloggerNightrose: because it won't22:46
mhbyep22:46
Nightroseis that your point?22:46
apacheloggerand that was not an answer to my question22:46
mhband they do it terribly well22:46
apacheloggerbut instead answered what mhb is out for22:46
mhbalso22:46
apacheloggerhe thinks amarok 2 is trying to become itunes/wmp22:46
Nightrosemeh...22:47
mhbno, I think your "target audience" are those guys22:47
mhband you'll never get them to switch22:47
mhbtrust me22:47
mhbit's the same like Windows vs. Linux on a different scale22:47
apacheloggermhb: how do you know what our target auience is?22:47
Nightrosemhb: you can be sure that we put _a lot_ of thought into all this22:47
mhbwhen people want Windows, you can't convince them22:48
Nightrosethis is not just some random brainf**k...22:48
mhbNightrose: I know you did. Second system effect is all about overthinking.22:49
NightroseoO22:49
Nightroseso it is wrong not to think about it but also wrong to think about it?22:49
* Nightrose is confused22:49
apacheloggernah22:50
apacheloggerjust keep things like they are22:50
apacheloggerthe never change a running system concept22:50
mhbNightrose: hmm, so you think there's only that?22:50
Nightroseah ok22:50
mhbNightrose: not thinking and thinking too much?22:50
mhbNightrose: I don't think so.22:50
jussio1apachelogger: ok, so where do I get this 8th wonder of the world??22:50
Nightrosemhb: that is what I understood so far from what you are saying22:50
apacheloggerjussi01: not yet :P22:51
Nightrosejussio1: you will need to compile22:51
Nightroseincluding kde22:51
apacheloggeryes22:51
jussio1bleh...22:51
apacheloggerhighly unrecommandable since plasma is b0rked :P22:51
Nightroseright22:51
smarterit's still borked?22:51
jussio11 thing ok... kde...22:51
jussio1meh22:51
smarterand Qt22:51
jussio1ok, too hard for now...22:51
smarterit's not that hard with kdesvn-build22:51
smarterit just takes time22:52
mhbstrangely enough, the basic interface of iTunes ( a software I like a bit) is very simplistic, much like amarok1's22:52
mhbno bling22:52
Nightrosemhb: the interface is horrible - sorry22:52
=== __Czessi is now known as Czessi
NightroseI used it a few weeks ago22:52
jussio1smarter: maybe when I get my precision workstation...22:52
Nightroseand it was just plain horrible22:52
apacheloggermhb: why do you always compare us with $player?22:52
mhbapachelogger: because that's what you do22:53
mhbapachelogger: calculate audiences22:53
mhbapachelogger: ignore current user base22:53
mhbetc.22:53
apacheloggeroh22:54
apacheloggeritunes does ignroe it's current user base?22:54
apacheloggerand calculate audiences?22:54
apacheloggerinteressting enough that you say that like amarok2 is entering a completely unrelated market22:54
mhbNightrose: no, it's not22:54
apacheloggerwhile we are already there22:54
apacheloggerthe whole amarok 1.4 development was made around exactly that market we want to address with amarok222:55
apacheloggerso you should not like amarok 1.4 either22:55
smartermhb: have you already tried amarok2?22:55
mhbsmarter: oh, do they have single install binaries for OS X yet? :-)22:56
mhbah, just teasing you22:56
smarterI think some guy on planetkde is building KDE4 snapshots for OS X from time to time22:58
mhbI have tried those way back22:58
mhbthey're too large22:59
mhbreally22:59
smarterOS X is Evil anyway :)22:59
mhbwell, they're good23:00
mhbgood and evil at the same time23:00
mhbsmarter: if only our software was as good as theirs :-)23:01
jussio1apachelogger: have you got a screenshot of amarok 2?23:02
apacheloggerI don't have an installation right now23:03
apacheloggerNightrose might have one at hand23:03
smarterjussio1: there are some here: http://amarok.kde.org/en/node/45823:03
jussio1thanks23:03
Nightrosenope no install here either23:04
apacheloggerNightrose: who's fault is that?23:04
Nightrosemine ;-)23:04
Nightrosein that case23:04
apacheloggerright23:04
apacheloggerI need a student23:04
* jussio1 cries... now I wish I hadnt seen it... :/23:04
apacheloggerfor neon23:04
* smarter has an install here from two weeks ago, but it doesn't want to play music :)23:04
Nightrosehehe23:04
apacheloggerseriously23:04
smarterjussio1: why?23:04
apacheloggerI can't get it running before july23:04
jussio1apachelogger: what requirements does this "student" need to have?23:05
jussio1smarter: I want it...bad ;)23:05
apacheloggerjussi01: interest in packaging, ruby skills and interst in amarok23:05
apacheloggerI'd say23:05
* smarter loves ruby23:05
Nightrose\O/23:05
jussio1apachelogger: hrm... I have the first and last....23:05
Nightrosethere you got your student apachelogger :P23:06
* txwikinger wonders if he counts as student23:06
jussio1:/23:06
apacheloggerJucato: go get learn ruby then23:06
jussio1lol23:06
jussio1poor Jucato23:06
apacheloggerjussi01: even23:06
apacheloggerJucato: sorry23:06
* apachelogger neads to beat Sput harder in order to get a fixed autocompletion23:06
smarterDah best online book: http://poignantguide.net/ruby/whatisit.html23:06
jussio1apachelogger: ill beat him with you23:07
apacheloggersmarter, txwikinger, jussi01: so whom of you will it be?23:07
* jussio1 hugs smarter23:07
jussio1apachelogger: i got to go learn ruby first...23:07
apacheloggertechnically said23:08
smarterI don't have a lot of ruby knowledge (spend the last months reading C++ Primer :))23:08
apacheloggerjussi01 could do the packaging and smarter the ruby one :P23:08
jussio1:P23:09
smarterpackaging as in debian packaging?23:09
apacheloggeryes23:09
apacheloggersmarter: http://websvn.kde.org/trunk/extragear/multimedia/amarok/supplementary_scripts/neon/distros/ubuntu.rb?revision=795567&view=markup23:09
apacheloggerit's not very complex code23:09
jussio1apachelogger: did you like my comment to sput? :P23:09
smarterand what needs love in this code?23:10
txwikingerapachelogger: I figured out how to get the weather widget.. however it doesn't work23:10
apacheloggersmarter: well, ubuntu.rb needs refactoring IMO23:10
apacheloggerthe design is too complex23:10
apacheloggerand beside  that the ruby part is pretty much finished anyway23:10
apacheloggerbut there are some packaging issues23:10
apacheloggertaglib and strigi don't want to build properly for some reason23:11
=== uga_ is now known as uga
apacheloggermaybe it was only an issue with the ppa that day23:11
* txwikinger wonders why he seriously answers ndivia questions in Spanish23:11
smarteror maybe it was an issue with taglib/strigi were broken that day?23:12
apacheloggerunlikely23:12
apacheloggerI revued the cmake files23:12
apacheloggerthere were no issues23:12
smarterwhat does the log says?23:12
apacheloggerlinking error23:13
apacheloggersec23:13
apacheloggersmarter: https://edge.launchpad.net/~project-neon/+archive/+builds?build_text=&build_state=all23:13
smarterand what did you change between amarok10 and amarok12?23:16
apacheloggersmarter: new builds23:16
smarteroff to bed, 'night everybody23:22
apacheloggernini23:22

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