[02:13] <dat> I've just been trying to set up avahi and the enable_avahi script is missing from /usr/share/avahi - does anyone know where I can get it from?
[02:37] <dat> I figured out that all it does is write a line to /etc/default/avahi-daemon and then start the init.d process which I have done and can't see my other machines services let alone this machines
[03:24] <sophiemg> hola
[03:25] <sophiemg> alguien me puede ayudar en una tarea?
[03:25] <stdin> !es
[03:25] <ubotu> Aquí solamente hablamos inglés. Para Español, por favor entre en los canales #ubuntu-es o #kubuntu-es - allí obtendrá más ayuda.
[04:13] <e-uoaphys> is kubuntu 8.04 using kde4, or kde3 default?
[04:20] <stdin> default is kde3
[05:02] <nixternal> default is whatever you download :p
[05:03] <nixternal> you download Kubuntu 8.04 you get KDE, you download the Remix, you get KDE 4
[05:03] <nixternal> and who in their right mind enjoys doing a code walkthrough?
[05:09] <ScottK> When it's someone else's crap code and you don't like them?
[05:13] <ScottK> Is there a metapackage for all the kde4 games?
[05:14] <stdin> kdegames-kde4 ?
[05:15]  * ScottK tries
[05:15] <stdin> well, that seems exist anyway
[05:15]  * stdin should really know
[05:16] <ScottK> Yep.  That was it.
[05:17] <ScottK> Thanks.
[05:18] <stdin> :)
[05:24] <nixternal> ScottK: actually all of the code was very well written...funny thing is I wrote a module where it reviewed high, but my brain was toast, and I was feeling e.tarded
[05:24] <nixternal> I couldn't make sense of my own comments..just needed sleep
[05:26] <ScottK> K.  Just offering that as a scenario that might be fun.
[05:26] <ScottK> Speaking of needing sleep ...
[05:26] <ScottK> Good night all.
[05:46] <nixternal> ScottK: ahh, just totally grasped what you said up there...that would be fun :)  anywho, g'nite to you as well
[11:12] <mhb> is it me or do we need a good theme for KDE4 KDM?
[11:12] <jpatrick> kwwii: ^
[11:12] <mhb> well
[11:12] <mhb> we cannot count on him, he is too busy with his job
[11:12] <mhb> but I meant in general
[11:13] <mhb> look around, see what is available, do some branding...
[11:13] <mhb> perhaps offer a bit similar look to what Ubuntu is offering
[11:13]  * mhb has to check how gdm actually looks like these days
[11:17] <mhb> jpatrick: how are you doing these days?
[11:18] <jpatrick> mhb: not too good, but surviving
[11:19] <mhb> jpatrick: hmm, bad
[11:19] <jpatrick> mhb: am loving coding in Python tho, how about yourself?
[11:22] <mhb> jpatrick: I am not doing much coding recently, a bit C sharp, but I am not liking that :o)
[11:23] <jpatrick> mhb: I have to do VB at school, but I always have firefox in the background with docs.python.org opened
[11:26] <mhb> jpatrick: VB is even more evil than C Sharp
[11:26] <jpatrick> so true
[11:26] <mhb> jpatrick: so you are coming to UDS?
[11:27] <jpatrick> mhb: hopefully, depends on when the money comes, but I'm doing what I can
[11:27] <mhb> jpatrick: splendid! What are your plans for intrepid? Meaning stuff you want to take part of yourself...
[11:29] <jpatrick> mhb: hmm, haven't really thought of it yet..
[11:30] <mhb> okay
[11:31] <jpatrick> mhb: hopefully some coding :)
[11:33] <jpatrick> but with no internet at home, things get tricky.
[11:33] <mhb> well that is not true :-)
[11:34] <mhb> I was also coding without internet for some time
[11:34] <mhb> you can install all the documentation you need as packages
[11:34] <mhb> python, qt3, qt4... you name it
[11:34] <jpatrick> ah, that reminds me
[11:36] <jpatrick> well, library's closing.. best be off.. :(
[11:37] <mhb> see you
[11:37]  * jpatrick has all docs waiting for him
[11:38] <jpatrick> mhb: ps. some example code of mine ;) http://www.cli-apps.org/content/show.php?content=79678
[11:39]  * mhb checks it out
[11:41] <mhb> interesting
[11:41]  * jpatrick uses it basically to store his passwords 'safely'
[11:45] <jpatrick> bye for now
[11:46] <mhb> bye
[13:02] <TimS> Wo edits the website? They have the link to the English DVD ISO server wrong.
[13:02] <TimS> who*
[13:02] <TimS> It should be http://www.mirrorservice.org/sites/cdimage.ubuntu.com/cdimage/kubuntu/releases/8.04/release/
[13:31] <jjesse> morning :)
[13:32] <ligemeget> Good morning :)
[13:32] <ligemeget> (well... aftenoon actually..)
[13:32] <jjesse> hello ligemeget
[13:36] <ligemeget> my hat's off to the Kubuntu website - even though I don't like some of the colors, in terms of news and general design it still pwns ubuntu.com :)
[13:36] <jjesse> i know they are working on making some further changes to it
[13:38] <ligemeget> Reading the mailing list, I've gotten the impression that the kubuntu-devs were relatively short on manpower..?
[13:43] <ligemeget> Sorry, got kicked off while installing kubuntu-desktop :)
[13:53] <Nightrose> ligemeget: we could use a helping hand, yes ;-)
[13:54] <ligemeget> Nightrose, I'm about to get used to Kubuntu - then I may introduce myself to the devel-list. Although I really don't know really much programming yet (unfortunately mostly Java) I'm willing to read up on it :)
[13:54] <Nightrose> :) great
[13:54] <Nightrose> you can also do packaging, documentation, bug hunting for example
[13:55] <Nightrose> if you don't want to program
[13:56] <ligemeget> But I want to program, actually - since it's what I'm studying, so I guess helping out Kubuntu would be great learning
[13:56] <ligemeget> Also, is your Documentation part of the ubuntu-docs team?
[13:56] <jjesse> bug hunting would be great as well
[13:56] <jjesse> ligemeget: yes it is
[13:57] <jjesse> myself and nixternal head up the documetnation for kubuntu
[13:57] <jjesse> as part of uuntu-docs
[13:57] <ligemeget> do you also use help.ubuntu.com wiki?
[13:57] <jjesse> yes
[13:57] <devilsadvocate_> i had a question about bug triaging : what does it take for a bugs status to change to Confirmed?
[13:58] <ligemeget> okay - then I could probably do something there as well
[13:58] <ligemeget> devilsadvocat_: If someone else than the reporter is able to reproduce the bug
[13:58] <ligemeget> (...I think)
[13:58] <Nightrose> devilsadvocate_: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/Status
[13:59] <ligemeget> brb, reboot to KDE :D
[14:11] <ligemeget> there
[14:11] <ligemeget> lovely
[14:11] <ligemeget> Now Amarok is in KDE, where it belongs :)
[14:16] <TimS> Any doc guys here?
[15:00] <jjesse> did TimS leave?
[15:01] <Nightrose> yes
[15:02] <Nightrose> but still in #kde-docs
[15:10] <ScottK> jjesse: RE your blog post on external monitors: You might ask bryce if your driver/X support what you are trying to do.  He can probably give you a hint on which way to get it done.
[15:10] <jjesse> ScottK: thanks it would be disappointing if i can't, one of the reasons i still keep iwndows on my laptop
[15:10] <ScottK> He just started a wiki page on configuring X and it'd be a useful addition if you could come up with a HOWTO once you've got it.
[15:10] <jjesse> would love to write it up
[15:11] <jjesse> i hate "sharing" my desktopw hen i use a projector
[15:11] <ScottK> So tell him that and ask for some pointers.
[15:11] <jjesse> cause when i teach during the lab time i'm usually doing other things that i don't want to disaply to all the students
[15:23] <fdoving> jjesse: then you need a projector-laptop and a secret-websurfing-during-class laptop :)
[15:29] <jjesse> fdoving: yeah that would be nice wouldn't it :)
[16:22] <nixternal> mornin' Kubuntu'ites!
[16:25] <Jucato> Kubuntites :)
[16:25] <Jucato> (like Canaanites and Hittites :)
[16:25] <nixternal> hehe
[16:29] <Jucato> nixternal:  I might ask you next week what doc-type projects we have planned for Kubuntu :)
[16:31] <nixternal> Jucato: how about an entire rewrite for Kubuntu docs?
[16:31] <Jucato> O.o
[16:31] <Jucato> wow
[16:31] <nixternal> which we could definitely use your help on
[16:31] <nixternal> we have to do KDE 4 docs for Kubuntu, and on top of that, I have about 50 docs to write for KDE 4
[16:32] <Jucato> sure. since I've realized and convinced myself that I suck at debian packaging, and my C++ fu is not up to par... I think I can help with docs a bit
[16:32] <nixternal> so start playing with docbook now, because I am putting you to work for Intrepid
[16:32] <Jucato> lol I might use a different system :P
[16:32] <nixternal> I could care less what you use honestly :)
[16:32]  * Jucato is trying to avoid learning docbook directly first :P
[16:32] <Jucato> asciidoc actually... then output to docbook
[16:32] <nixternal> docbook is easy...it is like learning html
[16:33] <Jucato> oh that's the perfect statement to discourage me :)
[16:33] <nixternal> ahh, I haven't played with asciidoc yet, but I hear people talking about it
[16:33] <Jucato> since I just realized that I desperately needed to upgrade my brain to XHTML 1.1 and CSS2 :)
[16:33] <nixternal> I would love to have a functioning moinmoin -> docbook plugin
[16:33] <nixternal> but that hasn't happened in 2 years
[16:34] <nixternal> CSS2? CSS3 will be out in the next year or so
[16:34] <Jucato> nixternal: CSS1 was my last glance at the beast :P
[16:34] <nixternal> heh, I suck at CSS honestly, I just poke around until it works
[16:34] <Jucato> oh and I'd love an html->docbook converter.. maybe asciidoc will be my panacea :)
[16:34] <nixternal> I think we should write docs in LaTeX
[16:35] <nixternal> I think my new favorite app is Kile
[16:35] <Jucato> Kile and Kate :)
[16:35] <nixternal> speaking of Kate, I need to finish writing the xml plugins for Kate 4
[16:36] <nixternal> http://giss.tv:8000/guademy.ogg
[16:36] <nixternal> they are talking about Akonadi
[16:36] <nixternal> wstephenson that is
[16:37] <Jucato> heheh good he didn't get booed out :P
[16:37] <Jucato> are you attending akadec/gaudemy if it ever happens?
[16:38] <nixternal> gaudemy is going on right now
[16:38] <nixternal> that is a live link
[16:39] <Jucato> oh right
[16:39] <nixternal> haha, developers, developers, developers!
[16:39] <Jucato> hm.. guademy. that's not the planned Akademy + Guadec in one place right?
[16:39] <Jucato> at least not yet?
[16:40] <nixternal> umm, I think so
[16:40] <Jucato> because the call for suggestions was for 2009... now I'm confused :)
[16:40] <Jucato> anyway...  :)
[16:40] <nixternal> hrmm, there is another one they are working on as well
[16:40] <nixternal> Guademy is quit small, I think 110 people max
[16:40] <Jucato> ah ok. different one then
[16:41] <nixternal> quite
[16:41] <nixternal> can't speel this morning
[16:42] <Jucato> ovbiousyl
[16:42] <Jucato> er. obvsiously
[16:42] <nixternal> haha
[16:42] <Jucato> hm...
[16:42] <Jucato> right.. I'm sleepy :)
[17:03] <apachelogger> ladies and gentleman, I present you: Kubuntu 8.04's worst bug
[17:03] <apachelogger> bug #203349
[17:03] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 203349 in language-pack-kde-ru "Broken plural forms in KDE" [Medium,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/203349
[17:05] <apachelogger> This astonishing bug is effecting _all_ language packs and at least 4 of our stock KDE 3 applications
[17:05] <apachelogger> It indeed deserves the title "Worst Bug"
[17:06] <apachelogger> and it makes me wonder whether it makes any sense besides breaking... to import already translated applications into rosetta
[17:06] <ScottK> I just filed my first KDE4 bug.  KDE Bug 161308
[17:06] <ubotu> KDE bug 161308 in general "Number of games played increments both when a game is started and when a game ends" [Normal,Unconfirmed] http://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=161308
[17:07] <smarter> apachelogger: worksforme with Frenchy KDE
[17:08] <apachelogger> smarter: in amarok?
[17:10] <smarter> apachelogger: no problem
[17:11] <apachelogger> cool, but strange
[17:12] <smarter> oh, I just found it
[17:13]  * apachelogger purges the french languagepack again :P
[17:13] <smarter> I didn't see it before because I was listening to a lastfm flux, and you can't edit them
[17:14] <apachelogger> ic
[17:14] <smarter> well, it's not that bad
[17:15] <smarter> at least in amarok, it's only one right-click item which has this bug
[17:17] <smarter> and I remember having this bug(in Amarok too) some times ago
[17:17] <smarter> I'm not sure if it has been reintroduced recently or if it was always there
[17:17] <apachelogger> smarter: in dolphin it's the statusbar
[17:17] <apachelogger> which is visible all the time
[17:17] <ScottK2> Riddell: Are you aware of http://www.kde.org/info/security/advisory-20080426-2.txt
[17:17] <smarter> apachelogger: no problem with the status bar
[17:17] <apachelogger> and that amarok right click menu is the most used one I think
[17:17] <smarter> dolphin3 ?
[17:17] <smarter> d3lphin actually
[17:17] <apachelogger> smarter: only happens on delete or something
[17:18] <apachelogger> ...only KDE 3 apps are imported into rosetta ;-)
[17:18] <smarter> I created and deleted a file and no problem
[17:21] <smarter> but you should test with alpha 2 or 3, I'm sure this bug has happened before and maybe it has been corrected and reintroduced recently
[17:22] <apachelogger> happens in de
[17:23] <apachelogger> interessting
[17:23] <apachelogger> it doesn't happen in fr
[17:23] <smarter> with what app?
[17:23] <apachelogger> d3lphin
[17:24] <smarter> yes, I saw  the bug for Adept some times ago too
[17:24] <smarter> but I don't remember having it with KTorrent
[17:25] <ligemeget> apachelogger, I can confirm it in da
[17:26] <ligemeget> I was actually discussing it w/ other translators in another channel earlier - we thought it was our fault :)
[17:27] <apachelogger> ligemeget: did you only notice in amarok or d3lphin as well?
[17:30] <ligemeget> apachelogger, where in d3lphin?
[17:30] <apachelogger> ligemeget: dolphin, the file manager
[17:31] <ligemeget> I've only got Dolphin 0.9.2
[17:31] <apachelogger> kde 3 version is called d3lphin
[17:31] <apachelogger> yes
[17:31] <apachelogger> that one :P
[17:31] <ligemeget> ah, ok
[17:31] <apachelogger> ligemeget: if you just open it
[17:31] <apachelogger> in the statusbar
[17:31] <apachelogger> smarter: fr for d3lphin is correct indeed
[17:31] <apachelogger> I am wondering why though
[17:32] <ligemeget> apachelogger, in the bottom status bar it just says "19 items (11 Folders, 8 Files)" - it's not even translated!
[17:32] <smarter> ligemeget: translated here, blame the translators ;)
[17:32] <apachelogger> ah
[17:32] <apachelogger> oh
[17:32] <apachelogger> Current German[0]: 	Copy text 	
[17:32] <apachelogger> Ein Element#
[17:32] <apachelogger> Current German[1]:   	  	
[17:32] <apachelogger> (no translation yet)
[17:33] <apachelogger> English singular:   	 Copy text   	
[17:33] <apachelogger> 1 Item
[17:33] <apachelogger> this would mean
[17:33] <apachelogger> smarter: I think that issue is even far more complex than I thought
[17:34] <apachelogger> it appears for amarok in every language apparently
[17:34] <ligemeget> shall I add language-pack-kde-da to the bug?
[17:34] <apachelogger> because amarok is having the same string as non-plural and as singular form for a plural combination
[17:34] <apachelogger> ligemeget: I already did, you can just add a comment about it
[17:35] <apachelogger> and
[17:35] <apachelogger> if there is no plural translation for a string which should be plural form
[17:35] <apachelogger> rosetta only exports the non-plural translation
[17:35] <apachelogger> which breaks the syntax
[17:37] <smarter> apachelogger: maybe we should ask the devs in #launchpad
[17:37] <smarter> but why does it only affects kde3 apps?
[17:37] <apachelogger> smarter: because we don't import KDE 4 apps into rosetta right now
[17:38] <apachelogger> I think at least ;-)
[17:38] <smarter> yes, but the gnome/xfce folks don't seem to have any problem
[17:38] <apachelogger> KDE has a special way of handling the plural stuff AFAIK
[17:39] <apachelogger> earlier rosetta didn't even recognize it as plural forms which lead to most awesome broken translations as well
[17:39] <smarter> ugh
[17:39] <smarter> go in #launchpad and kill someone ;)
[17:40] <apachelogger> none around right now
[17:40] <apachelogger> first I will aggregate more information
[17:40] <apachelogger> and this stuff needs to be topic for UDS
[17:40] <ligemeget> Anyone here who can open http://www.rommedahlen.dk/musik/Wongraven.mp3 ?
[17:41] <apachelogger> the whole rosetta import is causing mostly issues
[17:41] <apachelogger> may it be because rosetta fcks something up
[17:41] <apachelogger> or because the language teams change translations
[17:41] <apachelogger> I really see no reason for the latter
[17:41] <apachelogger> KDE is having pretty strong QA for l10n
[17:43] <apachelogger> smarter: intressting fact, in upstream d3lphin msgid "1 Item" and msgid "%1 Items" are 2 seperate strings
[17:43] <apachelogger> and not a plural combination
[17:43] <smarter> we shouldn't use LP for l10n in the first place imho...
[17:44] <apachelogger> ---> we <--- indeed shouldn't
[17:44] <apachelogger> it makes sense for upstream projects
[17:45] <apachelogger> like when d3lphin chooses to use rosetta for translation it's ok
[17:45] <apachelogger> but there is absolutely no reason why we, as distributor, should modify translations unless they are completely wrong
[17:46] <ligemeget> The Danish Amarok translation blows IMHO, but I'm taking that complaint elsewhere :)
[17:46] <apachelogger> da     0     0     0     100 %
[17:46] <apachelogger> but complete :D
[17:46] <apachelogger> http://aplg.kollide.net/amarok/l10n/amarok-1.4.9.1.html
[17:46] <Nightrose> IMHO it is a waste of workforce (unless you hope they will get from translation to other parts of *ubuntu)
[17:47] <apachelogger> Nightrose: at it's best it is limiting workforce
[17:47] <apachelogger> when someone translates a new application to german, while upstream doesn't even have one
[17:47] <apachelogger> it makes some sort of sense for us
[17:47] <smarter> what is a "fuzzy" string?
[17:47] <Nightrose> apachelogger: yea sure
[17:47] <apachelogger> but who will push it upstream?
[17:47] <apachelogger> none does
[17:47] <nixternal> I added info to the team report for us - anything you can think of that you feel needs to be added, speak up now or forever hold your peace
[17:47]  * smarter only knows fuzzy pop
[17:47] <apachelogger> so it is highly unsocial
[17:48] <apachelogger> smarter: fuzzy strings are kind of translations which need a review
[17:48] <smarter> ok, thanks
[17:48] <apachelogger> for example when I change an exisitng string in Amarok, existing translations which will be marked fuzzy so the translators review it whether they need to change the translation as well
[17:49] <apachelogger> nixternal: KDE 4 is tha awesomest
[17:50] <nixternal> Riddell: for Intrepid I say we maintain a team report page where we can update it as we hack on stuff, making it easier to transfer to the community page
[17:50] <nixternal> I will setup a wiki page just for it - time we start collaborating a little more outside of IRC :)
[17:51]  * ScottK2 barely manages status reports for paid work when they are contractually required.  The odds of me doing on a volunteer basis aren't very high.
[17:52] <nixternal> ScottK2: you are the one I really wanted status stuff from actually in regards to guidance because you busted your ass on it
[17:52] <nixternal> all i put on the report was 'Guidance fixes' :)  couldn't remember them all
[17:53] <smarter> nixternal: aptitude changelog kde-guidance
[17:53] <nixternal> smarter: your name fits you well, cuz that didn't even pop into my head as of yet :)
[17:54] <ScottK2> nixternal: I did a lot on that, but awen did quite a bit and smarter's contribution was quite important too.
[17:55] <smarter> nixternal: thanks ;)
[17:56] <ScottK2> nixternal: For displayconfig, the short version is took it from non-functional and crashing with modern Xorg and display adapters to generally functional for single screen configurations.
[17:56] <ScottK2> awen got brightness control to be generally working and reliable.
[17:56] <ScottK2> All of the guidance modules seem to be pretty stable.
[17:56] <ScottK2> That wasn't always the case.
[17:57] <ScottK2> Also got apport fixed so it wouldn't crash when trying to report guidance crashes so we actually were getting bugs when bud stuff happend.
[17:58] <nixternal> ok, added all of that
[17:59] <ScottK2> I'd leave out the bit about accidentally changing the api and causing about half a dozen other packages to start breaking the week before the RC.
[17:59] <smarter> :P
[17:59] <smarter> nixternal: and I got it not to stop working when HAL is restarted(happens when it's upgraded)
[18:00] <nixternal> I added all of the changelog stuff for april, except for the part where pitti reversed one of our patches :)
[18:00] <nixternal> keep the "oops, our bad" stuff out of there :)
[18:00] <nixternal> politican rocks!
[18:00] <ScottK2> smarter: Good point about the hal stuff.
[18:01] <txwikinger> Wenn will the first intrepid repo be available?
[18:03] <ScottK2> Generally it's 2 -3 weeks after release.
[18:05] <ligemeget> In other news: Kopete-Windows Live Messenger cannot send/receive files
[18:05] <yuriy> anyone want to consider bug 222141 a bug?
[18:05] <ubotu> Launchpad bug 222141 in kdepim "Color of Items changed after upgrade" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/222141
[18:08] <nixternal> ScottK2: didn't they open the tool chain right about UDS time last release?
[18:08] <nixternal> actually, I think they had the toolchain in place before UDS
[18:08] <ScottK2> Yes, but UDS was closer to release.
[18:08] <nixternal> txwikinger: also keep an eye on lists.ubuntu.com, when you see the intrepid-changes list, the toolchain has begun :)
[18:08] <ScottK2> UDS was ~2 weeks after release, not a nearly a month.
[18:09] <txwikinger> nixternal: will do
[18:09] <nixternal> ScottK2: that is true
[18:09] <nixternal> ScottK2: you going to this UDS?
[18:10] <txwikinger> Is it already decided where the UDS in fall will be?
[18:10] <nixternal> yup
[18:10] <ScottK2> nixternal: Yes.
[18:10] <nixternal> damn you :)
[18:11] <nixternal> jono and jcastro were telling me to pay my parking tickets so I can get my passport :)
[18:11] <ligemeget> where?
[18:11] <nixternal> tell Canonical to pay them :p
[18:11] <nixternal> ligemeget: where what?
[18:11] <yuriy> this UDS is in a month?
[18:11] <nixternal> yuriy: ya
[18:11] <nixternal> in Prague, mhb's backyard
[18:11] <ligemeget> Just curious about the UDS :)
[18:12] <ligemeget> ah
[18:12] <txwikinger> nixternal: where?
[18:13] <nixternal> the next UDS? no clue, that won't be announced for about another 4 months
[18:13] <txwikinger> Ah
[18:13] <txwikinger> well.. I don't know where I will be at that time either :D
[18:13] <nixternal> we sent Claire a proposal for the University of Illinois @ Chicago, but they said "nah, thanks anyways" :)
[18:14] <nixternal> typically they do the spring/1st quarter UDS in Europe and the fall/4th quarter UDS in the US...hopefully it stays that way :)
[18:17]  * nixternal goes to O'Hare
[18:17] <nixternal> cya
[19:50] <yao_ziyuan> have to say a bug :)
[19:50] <yao_ziyuan> in kubuntu you create a new user but it can't log into a new kde session
[19:50] <yao_ziyuan> in a gnome desktop you can create such a new user
[19:51] <yao_ziyuan> i mean 8.04
[19:59] <karaluh> hello
[19:59] <andrew_> I am having problems with nfs-client.  Anyone know what's wrong ?
[19:59] <coreymon77> andrew_: devel != support
[20:00] <andrew_> nfs reports "internal error"
[20:01] <karaluh> coreymon77: i'm here
[20:03] <coreymon77> karaluh: ya, im not a developer, i jsut hang around here
[20:03] <coreymon77> :P
[20:03] <karaluh> ok, so i'll ask here
[20:04] <andrew_> A server
[20:04] <karaluh> after upgrade i've got unbootable 2.6.24 kernel
[20:04] <coreymon77> andrew_: development does not mean support, youd be better off asking in the regular #kubuntu channel
[20:05] <karaluh> it gives kernel panic VFS unable to mount root
[20:06] <karaluh> old gutsy kernel drops to busybox without any disk devices
[20:07] <karaluh> i reverted 2.6.22 initramfs to the one gutsy generated and it went ok
[20:08] <karaluh> then i did update-initramfs the 2.6.22 which also worked
[20:08] <karaluh> but the 2.6.24 doesn't work
[20:09] <karaluh> i've tried both generic and 386
[21:23] <fdoving> hah, adept dist-upgrader is smart. it tells me i'm upgrading over ssh and starts an extra ssh daemon just in case. impressive :)
[21:48] <uga> fdoving: and what happens if it needs to upgrade sshd in the process?
[21:49] <fdoving> sshd will be upgraded. but it won't be restarted without first asking.
[21:49] <fdoving> atleast that is true in debian, and i hope this feature also is available in the graphical client.
[21:50] <uga> ah nice
[21:50] <fdoving> s/client/dist-upgrader/
[22:16] <mhb> apachelogger: you here?
[22:17] <apachelogger> Nightrose: am I here?
[22:17] <mhb> apachelogger: your blog post was quite confusing, to say the least :-)
[22:17] <Nightrose> you are apachelogger
[22:17] <apachelogger> mhb: I am
[22:17] <Nightrose> mhb: but good
[22:17] <Nightrose> ;-)
[22:17] <apachelogger> mhb: as long as tristan gets it :P
[22:17] <jussio1> hehe
[22:18] <mhb> well the first thing I thought when I read it was: 2 days before Ubuntu releases? that means we won't be able to get the latest amarok in
[22:18] <mhb> or is that just an ironic joke I didn't get?
[22:20] <mhb> apachelogger: please explain :-)
[22:21] <smarter> Is there something real in what you say?(e.g. two releases by year)
[22:22] <mhb> I also wonder
[22:23] <Nightrose> mhb: http://useopensource.blogspot.com/2008/04/synching-open-source-release-schedule.html
[22:23] <Nightrose> in case you have not seen it
[22:24] <apachelogger> smarter: we usually have 4-6 releases per year
[22:24] <smarter> so, I can safely ignore that blog post? ;)
[22:24] <apachelogger> and usually 2 of them are just before kubuntu goes in freeze and at least 1 other is by request from another distribution
[22:24] <apachelogger> smarter: yes
[22:24] <mhb> well there's no amarok2 for how long? :-)
[22:25] <mhb> if you just ported amarok1 to KDE4 and then started refactoring the code and adding features one by one...
[22:25] <mhb> but oh well, it seems you know everything so well that you can afford to write sarcastic replies, unlike us mortals
[22:25] <apachelogger> mhb: would it still not have been finished within 6 months
[22:25] <apachelogger> also
[22:26] <apachelogger> adding features one by one is really really hard when you have to relay on the amarok1 base
[22:26] <apachelogger> because it is crap
[22:26] <mhb> you wrote it .o)
[22:26] <apachelogger> mhb: started in 2002
[22:26] <mhb> don't forget the "second system effect"
[22:26] <apachelogger> mhb: ?
[22:27] <mhb> that's when you write something good, but you see all those flaws, so you start anew on a "second system" by trying to evade all your previous mistakes
[22:27] <mhb> the result tends to be much, much worse
[22:28] <mhb> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_system_effect
[22:28] <mhb> efers to the tendency to design the successor to a relatively small, elegant, and successful system as an elephantine, feature-laden monstrosity.
[22:29] <mhb> and I must admit amarok1 was relatively small, elegant... and definitely successful
[22:29] <mhb> and all those plasmoids and SVGs...
[22:29] <mhb> well, I haven't made this rule up :-)
[22:29] <apachelogger> that saied
[22:29] <apachelogger> you are not target user group
[22:30]  * Nightrose has the feeling mhb has "new=bad" somewhere tatooed on his back ;-)
[22:30] <apachelogger> I think we should everyone to a marketing workshop one day
[22:30] <Nightrose> hehe good idea
[22:30] <mhb> Nightrose: did I write that article? :-) I tend to be skeptical, yes
[22:30] <Nightrose> apachelogger: let's do one at the next uds
[22:30] <mhb> apachelogger: of course, I'm not
[22:30] <apachelogger> Nightrose: yes
[22:30] <mhb> apachelogger: the problem with feature-laden monstrosities is, nobody is
[22:30] <smarter> SVGs and plasmoids don't seem badly designed, maybe a bit slow
[22:31] <apachelogger> smarter: should be improving with qt 4.4
[22:31] <smarter> I've seen that
[22:31] <smarter> Qt 4.3 + KDE 4.0 == unusable here
[22:31] <apachelogger> mhb: market analysis don't agree with you
[22:31] <smarter> Qt 4.4 + KDE 4.1 == almost as fast as KDE 3.5
[22:32] <mhb> apachelogger: which good project has started as a market analysis? :-
[22:32] <mhb> :-)
[22:32] <apachelogger> mhb: amarok2
[22:33] <apachelogger> Nightrose: what was the overall comment on amarok2 @ cebit?
[22:33] <mhb> UNIX was never a market analysis, google in its roots was just a bunch of young guys
[22:33] <Nightrose> apachelogger: amarok 2 = awesome
[22:33] <mhb> they ended up big
[22:33] <apachelogger> right
[22:34] <Nightrose> mhb: you still have to know what your target audience is
[22:34] <apachelogger> amarok just started
[22:34] <mhb> not because their target users were happy
[22:34] <jussio1> is amarok 2 in hardy?
[22:34] <Nightrose> otherwise you will screw up
[22:34] <apachelogger> no audience and crap
[22:34] <apachelogger> baby steps, right?
[22:34] <mhb> Nightrose: like those guys did, right? :-)
[22:34] <mhb> Nightrose: or Linus, he also cared about the market
[22:34] <Nightrose> mhb: I am sure they knew exactly who they are doing it for
[22:34] <mhb> Nightrose: in the end, he screwed up big time :-)
[22:34] <apachelogger> mhb: maybe you should write a mail to linus
[22:35] <mhb> right, I should write to him about how he's not targetting the audience correctly
[22:35] <apachelogger> whether he cares about the market or he just does whatever he feels like even if it breaks kernel big time
[22:35] <smarter> :D
[22:35] <Nightrose> jussio1: probably only the techpreview which is outdated
[22:35] <mhb> I'm sure he'd agree with you too
[22:35] <apachelogger> mhb: he is
[22:35] <apachelogger> big time actually
[22:35] <jussio1> Nightrose: / apachelogger where can I get a current .deb ?
[22:36] <fdoving> mhb: i vote for you :)
[22:36] <smarter> jussio1: amarok2 current deb?
[22:36] <apachelogger> jussi01: not at all
[22:36] <smarter> there's a PPA
[22:36] <jussio1> :/
[22:36] <jussio1> smarter: there is?
[22:36] <smarter> yes
[22:36] <apachelogger> there is?
[22:36] <jussio1> how up to date is it?
[22:37] <smarter> http://ppa.launchpad.net/amarok-nightly/ubuntu
[22:38] <smarter> I don't use it so I don't really know
[22:38] <apachelogger> out of date
[22:38] <jussio1> cool
[22:38] <apachelogger> and broken
[22:38] <jussio1> oh...
[22:38] <jussio1> :/
[22:38] <apachelogger> especially broken
[22:40] <mhb> apachelogger: don't forget about what made you popular in the first place
[22:41] <apachelogger> mhb: so you suggest we should forget about the biggest market and make the nerds geeks happy?
[22:41] <mhb> apachelogger: by concentrating on converting some other user bases from the XYZ music player to Amarok2, you'll not only fail in doing it, you'll lose your current popularity, too
[22:42] <mhb> I'm sure the people at Netscape were all "target audience" too, when Mozilla started to dominate them
[22:42] <mhb> they were only catching up... and you know how it ends
[22:42] <jussio1> nerd geeks ftw!
[22:43] <apachelogger> mhb: haha
[22:43] <apachelogger> ultimately
[22:43] <apachelogger> kubuntu/ubuntu is already dead
[22:43] <apachelogger> because it is targeting for a market which is filled with a gigantic thing fullfilling all the target audience needs
[22:43] <apachelogger> I hereby suggest a change of target audience for UDS
[22:44] <apachelogger> we should make kubuntu a dev environment
[22:44] <apachelogger> much easier to be successful there
[22:44] <mhb> right, actually... we don't care about what our userbase is
[22:44] <mhb> we don't care about potential users that would switch if we were 100% the same like Windows
[22:45] <apachelogger> mhb: you are suggesting amarok2 is 100% like itunes or wmp?
[22:45] <mhb> you could *never* make those happy. Same with Amarok2.
[22:45] <mhb> no, it'll never have the flawless HW integration iTunes have... as for wmp, I don't use that at all.
[22:46] <Nightrose> why will it never?
[22:46] <Nightrose> because itunes forces vendor lockin on its users?
[22:46] <apachelogger> Nightrose: because it won't
[22:46] <mhb> yep
[22:46] <Nightrose> is that your point?
[22:46] <apachelogger> and that was not an answer to my question
[22:46] <mhb> and they do it terribly well
[22:46] <apachelogger> but instead answered what mhb is out for
[22:46] <mhb> also
[22:46] <apachelogger> he thinks amarok 2 is trying to become itunes/wmp
[22:47] <Nightrose> meh...
[22:47] <mhb> no, I think your "target audience" are those guys
[22:47] <mhb> and you'll never get them to switch
[22:47] <mhb> trust me
[22:47] <mhb> it's the same like Windows vs. Linux on a different scale
[22:47] <apachelogger> mhb: how do you know what our target auience is?
[22:47] <Nightrose> mhb: you can be sure that we put _a lot_ of thought into all this
[22:48] <mhb> when people want Windows, you can't convince them
[22:48] <Nightrose> this is not just some random brainf**k...
[22:49] <mhb> Nightrose: I know you did. Second system effect is all about overthinking.
[22:49] <Nightrose> oO
[22:49] <Nightrose> so it is wrong not to think about it but also wrong to think about it?
[22:49]  * Nightrose is confused
[22:50] <apachelogger> nah
[22:50] <apachelogger> just keep things like they are
[22:50] <apachelogger> the never change a running system concept
[22:50] <mhb> Nightrose: hmm, so you think there's only that?
[22:50] <Nightrose> ah ok
[22:50] <mhb> Nightrose: not thinking and thinking too much?
[22:50] <mhb> Nightrose: I don't think so.
[22:50] <jussio1> apachelogger: ok, so where do I get this 8th wonder of the world??
[22:50] <Nightrose> mhb: that is what I understood so far from what you are saying
[22:51] <apachelogger> jussi01: not yet :P
[22:51] <Nightrose> jussio1: you will need to compile
[22:51] <Nightrose> including kde
[22:51] <apachelogger> yes
[22:51] <jussio1> bleh...
[22:51] <apachelogger> highly unrecommandable since plasma is b0rked :P
[22:51] <Nightrose> right
[22:51] <smarter> it's still borked?
[22:51] <jussio1> 1 thing ok... kde...
[22:51] <jussio1> meh
[22:51] <smarter> and Qt
[22:51] <jussio1> ok, too hard for now...
[22:51] <smarter> it's not that hard with kdesvn-build
[22:52] <smarter> it just takes time
[22:52] <mhb> strangely enough, the basic interface of iTunes ( a software I like a bit) is very simplistic, much like amarok1's
[22:52] <mhb> no bling
[22:52] <Nightrose> mhb: the interface is horrible - sorry
[22:52] <Nightrose> I used it a few weeks ago
[22:52] <jussio1> smarter: maybe when I get my precision workstation...
[22:52] <Nightrose> and it was just plain horrible
[22:52] <apachelogger> mhb: why do you always compare us with $player?
[22:53] <mhb> apachelogger: because that's what you do
[22:53] <mhb> apachelogger: calculate audiences
[22:53] <mhb> apachelogger: ignore current user base
[22:53] <mhb> etc.
[22:54] <apachelogger> oh
[22:54] <apachelogger> itunes does ignroe it's current user base?
[22:54] <apachelogger> and calculate audiences?
[22:54] <apachelogger> interessting enough that you say that like amarok2 is entering a completely unrelated market
[22:54] <mhb> Nightrose: no, it's not
[22:54] <apachelogger> while we are already there
[22:55] <apachelogger> the whole amarok 1.4 development was made around exactly that market we want to address with amarok2
[22:55] <apachelogger> so you should not like amarok 1.4 either
[22:55] <smarter> mhb: have you already tried amarok2?
[22:56] <mhb> smarter: oh, do they have single install binaries for OS X yet? :-)
[22:56] <mhb> ah, just teasing you
[22:58] <smarter> I think some guy on planetkde is building KDE4 snapshots for OS X from time to time
[22:58] <mhb> I have tried those way back
[22:59] <mhb> they're too large
[22:59] <mhb> really
[22:59] <smarter> OS X is Evil anyway :)
[23:00] <mhb> well, they're good
[23:00] <mhb> good and evil at the same time
[23:01] <mhb> smarter: if only our software was as good as theirs :-)
[23:02] <jussio1> apachelogger: have you got a screenshot of amarok 2?
[23:03] <apachelogger> I don't have an installation right now
[23:03] <apachelogger> Nightrose might have one at hand
[23:03] <smarter> jussio1: there are some here: http://amarok.kde.org/en/node/458
[23:03] <jussio1> thanks
[23:04] <Nightrose> nope no install here either
[23:04] <apachelogger> Nightrose: who's fault is that?
[23:04] <Nightrose> mine ;-)
[23:04] <Nightrose> in that case
[23:04] <apachelogger> right
[23:04] <apachelogger> I need a student
[23:04]  * jussio1 cries... now I wish I hadnt seen it... :/
[23:04] <apachelogger> for neon
[23:04]  * smarter has an install here from two weeks ago, but it doesn't want to play music :)
[23:04] <Nightrose> hehe
[23:04] <apachelogger> seriously
[23:04] <smarter> jussio1: why?
[23:04] <apachelogger> I can't get it running before july
[23:05] <jussio1> apachelogger: what requirements does this "student" need to have?
[23:05] <jussio1> smarter: I want it...bad ;)
[23:05] <apachelogger> jussi01: interest in packaging, ruby skills and interst in amarok
[23:05] <apachelogger> I'd say
[23:05]  * smarter loves ruby
[23:05] <Nightrose> \O/
[23:05] <jussio1> apachelogger: hrm... I have the first and last....
[23:06] <Nightrose> there you got your student apachelogger :P
[23:06]  * txwikinger wonders if he counts as student
[23:06] <jussio1> :/
[23:06] <apachelogger> Jucato: go get learn ruby then
[23:06] <jussio1> lol
[23:06] <jussio1> poor Jucato
[23:06] <apachelogger> jussi01: even
[23:06] <apachelogger> Jucato: sorry
[23:06]  * apachelogger neads to beat Sput harder in order to get a fixed autocompletion
[23:06] <smarter> Dah best online book: http://poignantguide.net/ruby/whatisit.html
[23:07] <jussio1> apachelogger: ill beat him with you
[23:07] <apachelogger> smarter, txwikinger, jussi01: so whom of you will it be?
[23:07]  * jussio1 hugs smarter
[23:07] <jussio1> apachelogger: i got to go learn ruby first...
[23:08] <apachelogger> technically said
[23:08] <smarter> I don't have a lot of ruby knowledge (spend the last months reading C++ Primer :))
[23:08] <apachelogger> jussi01 could do the packaging and smarter the ruby one :P
[23:09] <jussio1> :P
[23:09] <smarter> packaging as in debian packaging?
[23:09] <apachelogger> yes
[23:09] <apachelogger> smarter: http://websvn.kde.org/trunk/extragear/multimedia/amarok/supplementary_scripts/neon/distros/ubuntu.rb?revision=795567&view=markup
[23:09] <apachelogger> it's not very complex code
[23:09] <jussio1> apachelogger: did you like my comment to sput? :P
[23:10] <smarter> and what needs love in this code?
[23:10] <txwikinger> apachelogger: I figured out how to get the weather widget.. however it doesn't work
[23:10] <apachelogger> smarter: well, ubuntu.rb needs refactoring IMO
[23:10] <apachelogger> the design is too complex
[23:10] <apachelogger> and beside  that the ruby part is pretty much finished anyway
[23:10] <apachelogger> but there are some packaging issues
[23:11] <apachelogger> taglib and strigi don't want to build properly for some reason
[23:11] <apachelogger> maybe it was only an issue with the ppa that day
[23:11]  * txwikinger wonders why he seriously answers ndivia questions in Spanish
[23:12] <smarter> or maybe it was an issue with taglib/strigi were broken that day?
[23:12] <apachelogger> unlikely
[23:12] <apachelogger> I revued the cmake files
[23:12] <apachelogger> there were no issues
[23:12] <smarter> what does the log says?
[23:13] <apachelogger> linking error
[23:13] <apachelogger> sec
[23:13] <apachelogger> smarter: https://edge.launchpad.net/~project-neon/+archive/+builds?build_text=&build_state=all
[23:16] <smarter> and what did you change between amarok10 and amarok12?
[23:16] <apachelogger> smarter: new builds
[23:22] <smarter> off to bed, 'night everybody
[23:22] <apachelogger> nini