[07:44] <dinhtrung> is there any Vietnamese here?
[07:48] <nalioth> dinhtrung: try #ubuntu-vn
[07:49] <dinhtrung> thanks
[08:08] <Deiz> Man
[08:19] <Syntux> Women
[08:20] <ligemeget> I think I made 'women' a buzzword in my IRC...
[08:21] <ligemeget> whats up?
[08:30] <Syntux> WRC was amazing
[08:36] <Syntux> The opening will start in 8 hours, right?
[08:38] <ligemeget> What was WRC?
[09:12] <M0nk3yM4n> Is this where open week is taking place?
[09:13] <ligemeget> Yes, but not until a couple of hours
[10:26] <wasikevin> r u awake?
[10:28] <ragsagar> no proffesional here!
[10:29] <ragsagar> DrD
[10:29] <ragsagar> y no one here?
[10:29] <ragsagar> everybody sleeping?
[10:30] <ragsagar> hi doc
[10:30] <ragsagar> u there?
[10:30] <DrDarshan> yes I am
[10:30] <ragsagar> haha
[10:30] <ragsagar> no one here
[10:30] <ragsagar> feels like a private channel
[10:31] <ragsagar> iam going
[10:31] <DrDarshan> mee tu..(me too)
[10:34] <junaid> hi
[10:35] <junaid> i want to boot xp in the ubuntu
[10:35] <Lardarse> junaid: ask in #ubuntu
[10:35] <junaid> i had already installed both
[10:35] <Lardarse> ...
[10:37] <junaid> how to voice chat in ubuntu
[10:39] <Lardarse> junaid: ask in #ubuntu
[12:07] <VirianArt> hello
[12:09] <Donaldiljazi> hi
[12:10] <Donaldiljazi> is Ubuntu Open Week open?
[12:11] <Donaldiljazi> hello developers?
[12:54] <MarkusT> It starts at 15pm UTC.
[13:01] <rexium> 15:00 or 3pm utc :)
[13:45] <thsomash> hi
[13:46] <mhuber> 15:00 UTC is 17:00 CEST (e.g. the time in Germany)
[13:53] <intengu> has the classstarted
[13:53] <ubuntued> i think it's at 15:00 utc
[13:53] <ubuntued> that's in one hour isnt it?
[13:56] <dholbach> Mo 28. Apr 12:57:56 UTC 2008
[13:56] <dholbach> run    date -u   on the command line
[13:57] <dholbach> it always gives you UTC time :)
[13:57] <wharp> how bout that, that's pretty useful to know
[13:57] <ubuntued> talking about time, how do u get the unix timestamp of the current time?
[13:58] <ubuntued> using date (that is)
[13:58] <dholbach> daniel@lovegood:~$ python -c 'import time; print time.time()'
[13:58] <dholbach> 1209387582.65
[13:58] <dholbach> daniel@lovegood:~$
[13:58] <dholbach> oh... date... *shrug*
[13:59] <ubuntued> the python trick is ok too
[13:59] <funderburg> date +"%s"
[13:59] <ubuntued> thx
[14:11] <PAtrik81> if i type date i get 15:10 (correct time), if date -u 13:10 and i'm from slovakia timezone UTC+1 what i doing wrong?
[14:11] <ubuntued> date -u should be 2:11
[14:11] <ubuntued> 14:11 i mean
[14:11] <ubuntued> wrong (13:11)
[14:12] <tjagoda> Third try is the charm, eh?
[14:12] <ubuntued> lol
[14:12] <PAtrik81> :)
[14:12] <soren> PAtrik81: You have daylight savings time, don't you?
[14:12] <PAtrik81> not i have CET
[14:12] <PAtrik81> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UTC%2B1
[14:13] <tjagoda> Daylight savings time was a horrible invention. -_-
[14:13] <PAtrik81> i'm in Europe/Bratislava - Slovakia
[14:13] <soren> PAtrik81: I know what UTC+1 is.
[14:13] <ubuntued> although UTC/GMT is 13:11, London time is 14:11 because of daylight saving
[14:13] <soren> PAtrik81: You set your clocks ahead one hour about a month ago, didn't you?
[14:14] <PAtrik81> yes
[14:14] <ragsagar> yeah
[14:14] <soren> PAtrik81: That's daylight savings time. And that brings you to UTC+2.
[14:14] <ragsagar> iam able to someones response
[14:14] <lacteus> last Sunday of March
[14:14] <ragsagar> iam happy
[14:15] <ragsagar> hi lacteus
[14:15] <PAtrik81> ok, my mistake :D i'm time analfabeth =-O
[14:15] <lacteus> hi :)
[14:15] <PAtrik81> soren: tnx
[14:16] <ragsagar> lacteus: Iam from India! wat abt you?
[14:17] <jcastro> woo, just a few more hours!
[14:17] <ragsagar> hai jcastro
[14:17] <lacteus> ragsagar: I'm from France
[14:17] <jcastro> hi
[14:17] <ragsagar> wen i came here afternoon,nobody was here
[14:18] <ragsagar> everyone was busy doing something else
[14:18] <lacteus> ragsagar: well, I'm at work right now
[14:18] <jcastro> ragsagar: we start openweek in a bit so people are starting to come here
[14:18] <ragsagar> ok lacteus
[14:19] <ragsagar> but there was 64 mems at that time
[14:19] <arvind_khadri> ragsagar, hi
[14:19] <ragsagar> lacteus: So you are working for ubuntu??
[14:19] <Chrysalis> so, 1 hour and half to go right?
[14:19] <ragsagar> hi arvind_khadri:
[14:19] <lacteus> ragsagar: lol, no, I'm not. But I want to ;)
[14:19] <ragsagar> brb
[14:19] <jcastro> Chrysalis: about, yeah
[14:19] <arvind_khadri> ragsagar, am from India too
[14:19] <tjagoda> Uhm..
[14:19] <Chrysalis> k, just making sure
[14:19] <lacteus> ragsagar: I'm a software engineer
[14:19] <tjagoda> Isnt it about 40 minutes to go?
[14:20] <PAtrik81> interest, here was 143 nicks, and on #ubuntu-classroom-chat was 24 :)
[14:20] <ubuntued> do you guys have any idea how this will go? (do we get to see some presentation or something) ?
[14:21] <arvind_khadri> ubuntued, nice point
[14:21] <intengu1> class at 15:00 utc
[14:21] <Chrysalis> so whats final, 40min or 1 hour and 40min
[14:21] <Chrysalis> i am getting confused ;/
[14:21] <tjagoda> It's 39 minutes now. =P
[14:22] <tjagoda> Unless I've horrifically managed to bork my time zone calculations, OpenWeek starts in 38 minutes.
[14:22] <dreamwalker> it depends where are you from
[14:22] <dholbach> daniel@lovegood:~$ date -u
[14:22] <dholbach> Mo 28. Apr 13:23:39 UTC 2008
[14:22] <dholbach> daniel@lovegood:~$
[14:22] <dholbach>     https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek     starts 15:00 UTC
[14:22]  * tjagoda notes his horrifically borked time zone calculations
[14:23] <PAtrik81> 1 hour and 38 mins, not?
[14:23] <jcastro> yes
[14:23] <Chrysalis> thats what i thought
[14:23] <dholbach> hey jcastro!
[14:23] <tjagoda> I should remember to count daylight savings next time. -_-
[14:24] <jcastro> hi dholbach!
[14:24] <PAtrik81> tjagoda me too ;)
[14:27] <tjagoda> So anyway, there's the first lesson of OpenWeek.  Tjagoda never learned how to properly tell time.
[14:27] <tjagoda> He should be kept very far away from tzdata packages.
[14:28] <ubuntulover> Im not your guy, friend.
[14:28] <jcastro> I'm not your friend, guy
[14:28] <ubuntulover> I'm nut ya guuy, fweeend!
[14:33] <ragsagar> lacteus: name of you firm?
[14:34] <ragsagar> lacteus: name of your firm?
[14:35] <lacteus> ragsagar: well, I won't tell you. It's a very small firm, ~ 50 emp.
[14:35] <ragsagar> what is ~50 emp?
[14:35] <lacteus> employee
[14:35] <ragsagar> lacteus: no need of inferiority complex
[14:35] <lacteus> lol
[14:35] <ragsagar> no one here is in such a great position
[14:35] <ragsagar> :D
[14:36] <lacteus> it's for my privacy, no complex, just paranoia
[14:38] <ragsagar> lacteus: its ok
[14:38] <ragsagar> lacteus: iam not even working
[14:39] <ragsagar> the number of members are increase rapidly
[14:39] <artir> only 20 mins remaining
[14:44] <pavolklacansky> hello
[14:44] <pavolklacansky> i need some help with rosetta
[14:44] <lacteus> pavolklacansky: I think you may ask your question to #ubuntu
[14:45] <pavolklacansky> thx i will join to it
[14:50] <Balachmar> Isn't it actually 1 hour and 10 minutes remaining?
[14:50] <tjagoda> Yessir.
[14:50] <lacteus> yep
[14:50] <Balachmar> well, because artir, was talking about 20 minutes 10 minutes ago :)
[14:51] <Balachmar> I started doubting myself
[14:51] <tjagoda> A lot of us are forgetting daylight savings. =P
[14:52] <artir> wasnt it at 15:00 GMT?
[14:52] <Balachmar> yes, but GMT != UK time
[14:53] <ubuntulover> Oohh... I have 22:54 on my clocks already. I'm going to bed.
[14:53] <ubuntulover> Have fun, everybody!
[14:53] <Balachmar> GMT and UTC do not have Daylight saving time
[14:53] <ubuntued> it starts in 1 hour folks. current time 13:53:13 UTC
[14:53] <Balachmar> Hence the 1 hour difference
[14:55] <artir> oops
[14:55] <artir> XXD
[14:55] <artir> i will set a UTC ubication on my hardy clock
[14:55] <tjagoda> A lot of us should set UTC ubications on our hardy clocks. >>
[14:57] <tjagoda> Has anybody else actually gotten a /slower/ internet browsing experience after their upgrade to hardy?
[14:57] <artir> mine's is even faster
[14:57] <Balachmar> hey that is actually a thing missing in the time applet. I wanted to add a new "location" for the utc thing. But you can't select the UTC timezone...
[14:57] <artir> yep
[14:57] <yann2> tjagoda > I heard of issues with a wifi driver :)
[14:58] <artir> im looking on wkiki a country with UTC
[14:58] <tjagoda> That could be it, but it seems something more firefox related to me
[14:58] <tjagoda> I mean, the flash performance is a given, but now it seems to even slow down horribly on JavaScript, which I find odd
[14:59] <rick_h_> tjagoda: dns issuse?
[15:00] <tjagoda> I've already modified the ipv4 setting
[15:00] <artir> set and iceland location. They have UTC without DST
[15:01] <tjagoda> And my DNS settings are well and good.  Everything I have runs off the same DNS, and those work fine.
[15:01] <tjagoda> For the first time ever my XP firefox runs faster than my Ubuntu Firefox.  -_-
[15:01] <artir> whats your wifi card?
[15:01] <tjagoda> It's an Intel
[15:02] <artir> intels are suposed to play nicely with ubunu
[15:02] <tjagoda> Worked awsome in 7.10, and everything prior
[15:02] <artir> i have a 3com usb adapter
[15:02] <artir> with zd1211 driver and its fine
[15:04] <tjagoda> I am baffled by it.
[15:05] <tjagoda> Maybe I'll try turning off visual effects.  Perhaps the restricted driver isnt playing nice with Hardy.
[15:06] <Panic1> Gutsy Gibbon -> Hardy Heron -> Intrepid Ibex -> Jolly Jumper??
[15:07] <artir> nein
[15:07] <artir> or jumpy jackal or jumpy jaguar
[15:07] <artir> jumpy jackal sounds better
[15:07] <arvind_khadri> where do we find those names
[15:07] <artir> there is a list of names and adjetives in the wiki
[15:07] <arvind_khadri> i mean how come they are out so soon
[15:07] <artir> of ubuntu
[15:08] <arvind_khadri> wokay
[15:08] <arvind_khadri> link please
[15:08] <artir> i think it would be jumpy jackal, but is not oficiañ
[15:08] <mike-t> tjagoda, I got slower wireless (rt2500pci) in hardy than in gutsy, but I installed latest compat-wireless and everything is back as it was
[15:08] <Toznoshio> how much time left?
[15:08] <jcastro> 52 minutes!
[15:08] <artir> 52 minutes
[15:08] <artir> according to a swiss based atomic clock
[15:09] <tac> Does anyone have any ideas where I might be able to find the best support for a new wireless card for my desktop?
[15:09] <artir> wiki.ubuntu.com
[15:09] <tjagoda> compat-wireless, you say?
[15:09] <tjagoda> I'll tray that, thanks.
[15:09] <Toznoshio> tac, also check out wicd once you have the driver set
[15:09] <TankEnMate> how about jingoistic jerboa?
[15:09] <intengu3> has the class started
[15:09] <artir> i prefer network manager
[15:10] <c00l2sv> about network manager
[15:10] <TankEnMate> intemgu3: nope, it starts in 50 minutes
[15:10] <artir> intengu3:no
[15:10] <c00l2sv> I have a question
[15:10] <tac> Toznoshio: ah thanks. I'll check it out =-)
[15:10] <artir> ask
[15:11] <c00l2sv> thx artir : so
[15:11] <c00l2sv> https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/network-manager/+bug/220497
[15:11] <c00l2sv> Im from romania
[15:11] <tac> it's a realtek, and they provide drivers for linux, but they provide drivers that don't *work* on ubuntu
[15:11] <c00l2sv> so here is very popular broadband modems
[15:11] <c00l2sv> like those using ppp connections
[15:12] <artir> y
[15:12] <artir> you can use system-administration-networks
[15:12] <artir> to get ppp working i think
[15:12] <c00l2sv> the question is , I just wondered , did anyone tested the "new" network manager
[15:12] <yann2> I am slightly lost - I thought this was the channel for classroom, it looks like a support channel...
[15:12] <c00l2sv> before pulling it into the lts hardy, and what where the main reasons for doing that?
[15:13] <yann2> guys please don't use this as a support chan..
[15:13] <artir> no idea
[15:13] <artir> but ubuntu people tend to get the latest
[15:13] <artir> before release
[15:13] <artir> xd
[15:13] <artir> ok
[15:13] <c00l2sv> imho, it should have been tested before making it part of a lts
[15:13] <TankEnMate> tac: what is the model of your wireless card?
[15:14] <tac> It's a rtl8185
[15:14] <Amaranth> ah good the sessions this time are later in the day
[15:14] <tjagoda> I strated a flood of support requests by talking about my slow hardy.
[15:14] <artir> cool:they should have waited some more weeks
[15:14] <tjagoda> Goodness gracious.
[15:14] <matiit> My 1st ask to dev's:  why FX 3b5? it is quite unstable... many of my friends have problem with it (i dont use Ubuntu and FX)
[15:14] <Amaranth> so i can be awake to attend them in the US :)
[15:14] <TankEnMate> tac: i know rtl8185 support has improved in the latest kernel..
[15:14] <artir> matiit: 100% stable for me except when i use youtube while listening to music
[15:14] <c00l2sv> matiit, people tend to get the latest
[15:15] <TankEnMate> tac: what version of ubuntu are you running?
[15:15] <Amaranth> matiit: Because Firefox 2 will not be supported by Mozilla for 3 years and Firefox 3 was supposed to be out around the same time as 8.04
[15:15] <c00l2sv> I'm pretty ok with ff3
[15:15] <tjagoda> artir, that doesn't count as 100%. =P
[15:15] <artir> true
[15:15] <matiit> artir: my Friend hav 100% cpu all time, even no flash www...
[15:15] <artir> 99,Y%
[15:15] <TankEnMate> is FF going to be upgrade to the full version when it is released?
[15:16] <artir> i hope so
[15:16] <Amaranth> Yes.
[15:16] <TankEnMate> super!
[15:16] <tjagoda> I have always had horrific flash performance.  I just dont ask about it anymore.
[15:16] <tac> TankEnMate: Gibbon
[15:16] <Amaranth> Flash on linux is horrible
[15:16] <Amaranth> I wish Adobe cared
[15:16] <c00l2sv> that why debian are so against it
[15:17] <Amaranth> Using rickrolls are a benchmark you can prove that flash on windows is twice as fast as flash on linux
[15:17] <tac> hah
[15:17] <compwiz18> Flash on linux requires a dual core processor :(
[15:17] <PecisDarbs> quadro, not dual :)
[15:17] <c00l2sv> compwiz18, I wouldn't say the same
[15:17] <PecisDarbs> c00l2sv: it really depends
[15:17] <artir> comp: i used flash with dapper in a 2,4 ghz 1 core machine witb 256 mb ram
[15:17] <artir> and it worked
[15:17] <Amaranth> compwiz18: My computer can't run fullscreen flash video and it's 2Ghz Core Duo with a mobile nvidia chip
[15:18] <tjagoda> I have a dual, and I still cant look at things with flash and scroll at the same time. =P
[15:18] <compwiz18> I dunno - it needs more then a single 1.8 core
[15:18] <artir> 98% cpu bgut it worked
[15:18] <TankEnMate> tac: you can get the source for the kernel from hardy and build it, you will probably need to get udev from hardy as well..
[15:18] <PecisDarbs> but sometimes it is very painful to watch Firefox die under Flash
[15:18] <c00l2sv> only if you're not a big big fan of youtube and watch 50 movies a minute in the same time
[15:18] <TankEnMate> tac: if you know how to build your own packages you can do it fairly easily..
[15:18] <jimcooncat> dholbach: I'm going to miss you're packaging sessions tomorrow, and that really bums me out.
[15:18] <Amaranth> myspace absolutely kills firefox thanks to animated and/or static (non-scrolling) backgrounds and flash
[15:18] <c00l2sv> btw, with ff3 it is much more stable than in ff2
[15:18] <tjagoda> We need to highly fund a team of crack engineers to reverse engineer flash for our platform. =P
[15:18] <tac> TankEnMate: What is udev?
[15:19] <dholbach> jimcooncat: you can check out the logs afterwards and there's always ubuntu-motu-mentors@lists.ubuntu.com for questions :)
[15:19] <TankEnMate> tac: udev is a package that handles the dynamic device entries
[15:19] <Amaranth> tjagoda: I know a guy you could direct that to :)
[15:19] <Amaranth> @now
[15:19] <ubotu> Current time in Etc/UTC: April 28 2008, 14:19:33 - Next meeting: Server Team in 2 days
[15:19] <tac> and by "Build your own packages" what does that entail? I have a mean ./configure;make;make install, but that's about it =-P
[15:19] <jimcooncat> dholbach: thanks, I'll start making use of that list.
[15:19] <TankEnMate> tac: it normally ties fairly closely with the kernel you are running..
[15:19] <dholbach> jimcooncat: rock on!
[15:19] <dholbach> :)
[15:19] <Amaranth> ah, jono starts in 40 minutes
[15:19] <Amaranth> then we have to stop talking here :)
[15:19] <ccm> hi there
[15:19] <artir> its something that makes your computer work. DOnt ask how. It just work! XD
[15:19] <dholbach> hiya ccm
[15:20] <ccm> hey dholbach :)
[15:20] <TankEnMate> tac: ahh you will want to build your own deb packages..
[15:20] <artir> there is a tutorial on Fullcircle
[15:20] <c00l2sv> tac, why not ask google?
[15:20] <matiit> my 2nd ask to dev's: Ubuntu handling a media keys in my keyboard. I use Gentoo and there is not it out of the bos, i must do it myself, i use'd good Xmodmap file and credit roght XF86xxxx to good funcion in gnome shortcut set-up... How is it made in Ubuntu? :)
[15:20] <TankEnMate> tac: if you can handle configure;make;make install you can handle making a package..
[15:21] <Amaranth> matiit: I assume we just have those xmodmaps done already :)
[15:21] <tac> http://www.us.debian.org/doc/maint-guide/ch-start.en.html << is something like this what you mean?
[15:21] <Amaranth> There was a big push a couple years back to get laptops working better
[15:22] <artir> dowload full circle magazine to get the Making debs:HOWTO
[15:22] <matiit> Amaranth: hmm, so it is the same what i have in my gentoo box? it isn't faster or sth else... It is identical?, If yes, I'm glad :)
[15:23] <Amaranth> matiit: Yeah, if the multimedia keys are working they've gotten them working in the same way
[15:23] <Amaranth> Ubuntu just does it for you :)
[15:23] <matiit> Amaranth: ok :)
[15:23] <matiit> Amaranth: good to know :)
[15:23] <artir> It just works!
[15:23] <tac> all this kernel talk is making me anxious to go home, but the day has just started
[15:23] <Amaranth> btw, there is no "ask the devs" session in openweek :)
[15:24] <jimcooncat> artir: that is a nice article! I'll print it and have lunch with it. pp. 8 - 10 by the way at http://fullcirclemagazine.org/download-manager.php?id=69
[15:24] <matiit> Amaranth: but dev's are in/on channel
[15:24] <Amaranth> matiit: Some of them
[15:25] <Amaranth> But in 30 minutes all the chatter in this channel has to stop so... :)
[15:25] <TankEnMate0> weird..
[15:25] <matiit> Amaranth: but everybody can ask about built-how ubuntu?
[15:26] <Amaranth> Right now, sure
[15:26] <Amaranth> You may not get an answer there, I'm a desktop guy :)
[15:26] <Toznoshio> There is also no session on how to get involved, except one called "Ubuntu training"
[15:26] <TankEnMate0> back..
[15:26] <Amaranth> s/there/though/
[15:26] <Amaranth> Toznoshio: The whole thing is about how to get involved, really
[15:27] <Amaranth> Toznoshio: There are sessions on packaging where I'm sure dholbach will explain a bit about MOTU and the other sessions are specific aspects of getting involved
[15:27] <Toznoshio> excellent
[15:27]  * dholbach hugs Amaranth
[15:27] <Amaranth> Oh, you are here. :)
[15:28]  * Amaranth hugs dholbach
[15:28]  * artir hugs everybody in this chat
[15:28] <matiit> Hmm how you can help with 100% cpu of firefox? My friend has that problem...
[15:28] <ScottK> We don't really need a "ask developers questions" session because you can do that anytime in #ubuntu-motu.
[15:28] <matiit> i talk him, that it is firefox beta fault
[15:28] <artir> matiit: go to #ubuntu to get help
[15:28] <artir> metiit: more people there
[15:29] <matiit> artir: ok :)
[15:29] <PecisDarbs> matiit: install FlashBlock
[15:29] <tjagoda> I almost feel bad for starting this avalanche of support inquiries =P
[15:29] <PecisDarbs> :)
[15:29] <RoAkSoAx> Open Week starts in about two hours right?
[15:29] <Amaranth> ScottK: Well, I dunno if that would be the place to go to ask about why we have firefox 3b5 in hardy :)
[15:29] <tjagoda> Starts in about half an hour
[15:29] <Amaranth> RoAkSoAx: 30 minutes
[15:29] <ScottK> True.
[15:29] <artir> half an hour
[15:30] <ScottK> Although we get asked often enough.
[15:30] <RoAkSoAx> thanks Amaranth :)
[15:30] <tac> What does CPU usage actually reflect in the underlying hardware? Since the CPU is constantly fetching and executing instructions?
[15:30] <ScottK> Amaranth: Isn't there some kind of FAQ that could go in.
[15:30] <matiit> artir: all time will be expositions?
[15:30] <tjagoda> Does anybody know when Firefox 3 full will be finished?
[15:30] <TankEnMate0> tac: http://www.debian.org/doc/maint-guide/ that will give you a quick guide to building your own deb packages.. it is aimed at the debian distribution, but it does have almost all the basics covered..
[15:30] <ligemeget> tac, ask in #ubuntu - this is not a support channel
[15:30] <Amaranth> tac: Amount of otherwise idle time the process is being scheduled for
[15:30] <ligemeget> Well... Not in that sense at least
[15:31] <rick_h_> dholbach: how goes, been meaning to say the updates docs for the hands on packaging are very nice. Used as a basis for my penguicon talk
[15:31] <rick_h_> much lower barrier to entry there
[15:31] <tac> ligemeget: how is my question support? I'm not trying to fix anything. I'm just curious
[15:31] <dholbach> rick_h_: hey - how are you doing? good work on the packaging jam! :)
[15:31] <ligemeget> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDeveloperWeek is very friggin' outdated!
[15:31] <rick_h_> well, more talk than jam this last time
[15:32] <ligemeget> (I think...)
[15:32] <Amaranth> Oh, I guess we should change the topic...
[15:32] <dholbach> ligemeget: you might want to take a look at http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek :)
[15:32] <TankEnMate0> rick_h_: but I like jam :(
[15:33] <dholbach> thanks Amaranth
[15:33] <Amaranth> That was easy, just s/Developer/Open/ and everything works :)
[15:33] <rick_h_> TankEnMate0: then jam away
[15:33] <Amaranth> Although that's going to be too long if we also want to stick the current session in the topic
[15:33] <TankEnMate0> I'll take strawberry thanks..
[15:33] <TankEnMate0> :)
[15:33] <ligemeget> tac, sorry, my mistake
[15:34] <artir> friday we have ask mark :)
[15:34] <TankEnMate0> i think simon.freenode.net is hung..
[15:34] <rick_h_> what's the chat channel that goes with this? just #ubuntu-chat?
[15:34] <Amaranth> #ubuntu-classroom-chat
[15:34] <tjagoda> Yup ^
[15:34] <TankEnMate0> #ubuntu-classroom-chatr
[15:34] <rick_h_> ty sir
[15:34] <Amaranth> When the sessions start that is were you ask questions
[15:34] <TankEnMate0> s/chatr/chat/
[15:34] <ligemeget> How long is the Welcoming session? All the way 'till 16:00 UTC?
[15:34] <rick_h_> yea, I figured I'd load it up now
[15:34] <Amaranth> then someone from the IRC Team or the person running the session copies them over to here and answers the question
[15:35] <tac> It's just something I always wondered about. Because the kernel, X11, and tons of daemons are always running on your computer, but it's only when I run "yes" or try to compute factorial . factorial 100 that my computer starts heating up
[15:35] <rick_h_> need to figure out how to explain to my boss my unproductive week with all this openweek irc time
[15:35] <tjagoda> Really.
[15:35] <Amaranth> tac: Because they aren't really doing anything, they just sit idle waiting for you to do something
[15:35] <tjagoda> All across the world, productivity of developers and IT workers is dropping right now.  =P
[15:35] <tac> (though that's probably because of the harddrive and excessive use of swap space in the latter case)
[15:36] <artir> tjagoda: the productivity always drop on april and october =D
[15:37] <Toznoshio> Wouldn't it be nice if the instructor used a sound streaming server?
[15:37] <TankEnMate0> tjagoda: this is sharpening the axe time.. read up on your 7 habits of effective people..
[15:37] <TankEnMate0> :)
[15:37] <tjagoda> What are the 7 habits of effective people?
[15:38] <jcastro> Amaranth: who from the irc team is helping out for the first session?
[15:38] <rexium> tjagoda: go get the book out of a library :)
[15:38] <Amaranth> jcastro: Apparently I am. :)
[15:38] <Toznoshio> tjagoda: there is a book by Steven Covey by that title
[15:38] <jcastro> rock!
[15:38] <Amaranth> I have too many hats :P
[15:38] <rexium> \m/?
[15:39] <jcastro> Amaranth: how about the logging?
[15:39] <Amaranth> jcastro: I'm not sure how that works, something should be doing it automatically
[15:39] <jcastro> ok
[15:40] <Amaranth> But I guess not
[15:40] <Toznoshio> Amaranth: logs at irclogs.ubuntu.com
[15:40] <Amaranth> Toznoshio: Right, but I think jcastro meant logs split for each session
[15:40] <TankEnMate0> Amaranth: sed? :)
[15:41] <Amaranth> Well, the logs on irclogs are delayed 30 minutes
[15:41] <TankEnMate0> amaranth: Sarbanes Oxley? :)
[15:41] <tjagoda> lol
[15:41] <Amaranth> cron job, probably :P
[15:41] <tjagoda> Lets just assume that logging works. =P
[15:42] <TankEnMate0> log log log its better than wood, its LOG!
[15:42] <rexium> "It runs over the neighbours dog! It's log log log!"
[15:42] <mahmoud2> !log\
[15:42] <ubotu> Sorry, I don't know anything about log\ - try searching on http://ubotu.ubuntu-nl.org/factoids.cgi
[15:42] <mahmoud2> !log
[15:42] <ubotu> Channel logs can be found at Channel logs can be found at http://irclogs.ubuntu.com/ - See also !OpenWeek - See also !OpenWeek
[15:42] <ligemeget> !kde
[15:42] <ubotu> KDE (http://kde.org) is the !desktop environment used natively in !Kubuntu. To install from Ubuntu: « sudo apt-get install kubuntu-desktop », or see http://help.ubuntu.com/community/InstallingKDE . Latest KDE version is 3.5.8 for Gutsy and Feisty, 3.5.6 for Edgy, and 3.5.5 for Dapper. See http://kubuntu.org for more information.
[15:42] <Amaranth> my logs don't have timestamps :/
[15:43] <ligemeget> nice
[15:43] <Martian> !pony
[15:43] <ubotu> Sorry, I don't know anything about pony - try searching on http://ubotu.ubuntu-nl.org/factoids.cgi
[15:43] <artir> !ubotu
[15:43] <ubotu> I am ubotu, all-knowing infobot. You can browse my brain at http://ubotu.ubuntu-nl.org/factoids.cgi - Usage info: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuBots
[15:43] <ligemeget> !dholbach
[15:43] <ubotu> Sorry, I don't know anything about dholbach - try searching on http://ubotu.ubuntu-nl.org/factoids.cgi
[15:43] <ligemeget> just curious
[15:43] <Amaranth> !botabuse
[15:43] <ubotu> Please investigate with me only in /msg or in #ubuntu-bots (type also /msg ubotu Bot). Don't use commands in the public channels if you don't know if they really exist. Also avoid adding joke/useless factoids.
[15:43] <artir> !sabdfl
[15:43] <ubotu> Mark "sabdfl" Shuttleworth is our favourite cosmonaut, the founder of Canonical and the primary driver behind Ubuntu. You can find pieces of his thinking at http://www.markshuttleworth.com
[15:43] <Amaranth> jcastro: Dunno what to do about logs, xchat-gnome is stupid about them :P
[15:44] <jcastro> Amaranth: I was just making sure they show up on irclogs.u.c
[15:44] <jcastro> that's fine, we can split them later
[15:44] <Amaranth> Alright, ubuntulog takes care of that
[15:45] <TankEnMate0> おがさわらさん！
[15:46] <Amaranth> Alright, I'll be back in like 10 minutes, I hope.
[15:46] <ogasawara> TankEnMate0: hi :)
[15:46] <Amaranth> If not jcastro can run the session himself :)
[15:46] <Toznoshio> TankEnMate0: nice painting, is it by Salvador Dali? :P
[15:47] <TankEnMate0> toznoshio: nope, its Japanese, although your IRC client needs to understand utf8 to be able to display it..
[15:48] <Martian> TankEnMate0, what does that mean?
[15:48] <TankEnMate0> Martian: it said "Honourable Ogawara!" :)
[15:48] <tjagoda> He's secretly cursing at us in foreign tongues.
[15:49] <TankEnMate0> tjagoda: not yet :)
[15:49] <tjagoda> Heh
[15:49] <rubicon_> yet?
[15:49] <TankEnMate0> the day is young..
[15:49] <TankEnMate0> well here at least :)
[15:50] <Martian> 16:49 here.
[15:50] <rubicon_> here's almost midnight...
[15:50] <tjagoda> 10:50 AM here
[15:50] <DooMRunneR> GMT+1 rockzzZZZ :D
[15:50] <tjagoda> UTC -5 ftw!
[15:51] <Martian> GMT+2!
[15:51] <artir> 你好。你可以看这个
[15:51] <artir> GMT
[15:51] <Martian> 马
[15:51] <rubicon_> китайцы блин
[15:51] <artir> scim FTW
[15:51] <TankEnMate0> martin: hoe gart tet?
[15:52] <TankEnMate0> martin: is that the right spelling?
[15:52] <Martian> Random chinese character.
[15:52] <artir> no
[15:52] <Toster> 16:53 here
[15:52] <artir> i know how to speak chinese
[15:52] <artir> im in second
[15:52] <Martian> I can use Scim but not chinese.
[15:52] <gringo> sorry to spoil the fun, but wasn't #ubuntu-classroom-chat supposed to be the main chatty channel?
[15:52] <artir> you have to loom for "pinyin" on synaptic
[15:52] <artir> y
[15:52] <LainIwakura> Maritan: Give gcin a try
[15:52] <TankEnMate0> gringo: yeah it is, but i guess people are waiting to be told to move their chat over..
[15:53] <TankEnMate0> i guess..
[15:53] <LainIwakura> Martian: I tried for several..weeks. Gcin solved my problem in a day.
[15:53] <LainIwakura> I tried scim*
[15:53] <Jared> I've joined both channels. Using chatzilla here.
[15:53] <Martian> Ah, well. Scim works for me. BTW did I say mother or horse?
[15:54] <TankEnMate0> last one looked like horse
[15:54] <TankEnMate0> a simplified chinese horse that is..
[15:54] <artir> "ma" means horse/mother or to make a question
[15:54] <Martian> And hemp or scold.
[15:55]  * rubicon_ wonders what unsimplified chinese horse look like
[15:55] <dholbach> hey jono
[15:55] <LainIwakura> 马
[15:55] <artir> wait the question was with a box 吗
[15:55] <LainIwakura> ^ like that
[15:55] <jono> hi all
[15:55] <rubicon_> jeez
[15:55] <artir> hi
[15:56] <LainIwakura> Hello, this is my first time here.
[15:56] <LainIwakura> What is today's lesson?
[15:56] <Jared> I got up early just for the chat sessions today LOL. 8 am here on the west coast.
[15:56] <artir> =
[15:56] <TankEnMate0> 馬 is the Japanese, which I think hasn't been simplified..
[15:56] <Martian> LainIwakura, https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek
[15:56] <TankEnMate0> but my Japanese etymology is almost non existant..
[15:56] <LainIwakura> TankEnMate0: No that's the Chinese character which the Japanese took. = =
[15:56] <Amaranth> 4 minutes :)
[15:56] <mybunche> It's 11pm in Australia
[15:56] <rubicon_> looks like ancient tank or something
[15:56] <Amaranth> I hope the current session info fits in the topic
[15:57] <artir> 16 pm in canary islands
[15:57] <LainIwakura> Martian: Thanks for the link.
[15:57] <jimcooncat> mybunche: yesterday or today?
[15:57] <Potnis> 16 pm?
[15:57] <LainIwakura> So what time is it in UTC?
[15:57] <ragsagar> so many members now
[15:57] <Marijn> LoL , whats the cap of participants ?
[15:57] <TankEnMate0> LainIawakura: I understand yes, however Japanese took their own take at simplifying them.
[15:57] <ragsagar> lacteus:
[15:57] <ragsagar> u there?
[15:57] <Toster> 16:59 in Poland
[15:57] <rubicon_> @now
[15:57] <Martian> 14:57
[15:57] <ubotu> Current time in Etc/UTC: April 28 2008, 14:57:23 - Next meeting: Server Team in 2 days
[15:57] <ragsagar> so active and ubotu is also here
[15:57] <LainIwakura> Thanks.
[15:57] <Potnis> oh..
[15:57] <Potnis> its not pm then
[15:57] <mybunche> jimcooncat:11pm Mon
[15:57] <TankEnMate0> Mon Apr 28 14:57:49 UTC 2008
[15:57] <LainIwakura> So today is Welcome to Ubuntu Open Week! - Jono Bacon ?
[15:58] <jcastro> yep
[15:58] <LainIwakura> Or the next one
[15:58] <artir> 3 minutes
[15:58] <artir> wait
[15:58] <LainIwakura> Awesome
[15:58] <artir> XD
[15:58] <TankEnMate0> in two minutes time yes..
[15:58] <Amaranth> yay it fit
[15:58] <Potnis> so what we'll be allowed to chat when the session is going on?
[15:58] <Martian> 1min 3
[15:58] <Amaranth> no
[15:58] <Amaranth> !chat
[15:58] <ubotu> The Instant Messenger Client Pidgin (formerly Gaim) (http://help.ubuntu.com/community/GaimHowto) supports MSN, Jabber, AIM, Gadu-Gadu, Novell Groupwise, ICQ and IRC. See also !Kopete
[15:58] <Amaranth> crap
[15:58] <Martian> *23
[15:58]  * TankEnMate0 moves his inane chatting to #ubuntu-classroom-chat
[15:58] <Amaranth> Random chatter in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
[15:59] <Amaranth> You also ask questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat but make sure you start them with "QUESTION:" and/or my name so I see them
[15:59] <MarkusT> Just a short proposal: Everyone with a twitter account should twitter the https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek URL, since http://twitturly.com/ is featured on digg.com right now.
[16:00] <artir> 16:00
[16:00] <Marijn> 17:00
[16:00] <jono> alrighty
[16:00] <Toster> 17
[16:00] <jono> lets give it a few more mins to let latecomers come along :)
[16:01] <Amaranth> !chat
[16:01] <ubotu> Please use #ubuntu-classroom-chat for random chatter and asking questions. Questions should start with "QUESTION:" so we can spot them.
[16:01] <Amaranth> :)
[16:01] <jono> Amaranth: you are my tag-team buddy for questions right?
[16:01] <leftyfb> jono: how was "the other side" last week? :)
[16:01] <Amaranth> jono: yep
[16:01] <jono> Amaranth: wicked :)
[16:01] <jono> leftyfb: the other side?
[16:02] <leftyfb> wasn't that the name of the bar you ended up going to after the release party?
[16:02] <leftyfb> <~~~~ Mike
[16:02] <jono> leftyfb: oh...yeah - we went there, it was booked out, so went to another bar
[16:02] <jono> :)
[16:02] <ragsagar> no classes today?
[16:02] <leftyfb> ah
[16:02]  * LainIwakura is very excited about the classroom
[16:02]  * jono high fives leftyfb
[16:02] <jono> right, lets begin
[16:02] <jono> firstly.....
[16:03] <jono> WELCOME TO UBUNTU OPEN WEEK!! :)
[16:03]  * c00l2sv :)
[16:03] <Toster> Hi :)
[16:03] <jono> For those of you who don't know me, I am Jono Bacon, the Ubuntu Community  Manager
[16:03] <popey> eek
[16:04] <jono> I work every day to help ensure the Ubuntu community is a welcoming, enjoyable, fun place to be, in which we do good work and march towards bug #1
[16:04] <jono> I run a team of three of us at Canonical (which includes Daniel Holbach, who is dholbach, and Jorge Castro, who is jcastro) and work with the entire Ubuntu community to help grow and optimise how we all work together
[16:05] <jono> the aim of Ubuntu Open Week is to produce a week of interesting and informative IRC sessions explaining  how to get involved in the Ubuntu community
[16:05] <jono> we have a huge range of sessions on offer, given by real leaders in our community
[16:06] <jono> this is an excellent opportunity to learn from the people who are very deeply involved with every aspect of Ubuntu
[16:07] <jono> from development, to documentation, to bugs, to testing, to packaging, to virtualisation, to training and more
[16:07] <jono> and with this Ubuntu Open Week, we have even more diversity in sessions
[16:08] <jono> we have a rocking week ahead of us, thats for sure
[16:08] <jono> I wanted to kick off by firstly explaining how the week works
[16:08] <jono> you can firstly see the schedule for the week at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek
[16:08] <Robert125> hehe I came at the right moment
[16:09] <jono> this shows the range of different sessions going on
[16:09] <jono> all session times are UTC - you can see the current time in your area as UTC by opening a terminal and typing "date -u"
[16:09] <wasikevin> date -u
[16:09] <jono> all sessions begin sharp on the time, so we recommend that you get to the session a few minutes early to ensure you are there
[16:10] <pak33m|work> date -u
[16:10] <pak33m|work> soory
[16:10] <jono> don't type it here
[16:10] <Amaranth> !chat
[16:10] <ubotu> Please use #ubuntu-classroom-chat for random chatter and asking questions. Questions should start with "QUESTION:" so we can spot them.
[16:10] <bjwood> lol
[16:10] <jono> you type it in a terminal
[16:10] <ccm> ah, that's better: /ignore #ubuntu-classroom JOINS QUITS PARTS
[16:10] <pak33m|work> wrong window thats all
[16:10] <jono> Applications->Accessories->Terminal
[16:11] <jono> pak33m|work: :)
[16:11] <stdin> or KMenu -> System -> Konsole for KDE users
[16:11] <jono> thanks stdin :)
[16:11] <CafeNinja> ﻿/ignore #ubuntu-classroom JOINS
[16:11] <CafeNinja> oops.
[16:11] <jono> all sessions will take place in this room
[16:11] <qhartman>  /ignore #ubuntu-classroom JOINS QUITS PARTS
[16:11] <jono> and each session will have the leader of the session teach the content as a constant stream of IRC messages
[16:12] <jono> if you want to discuss the session, please join #ubuntu-classroom-chat
[16:12] <ruiwen> ﻿/ignore #ubuntu-classroom JOINS QUITS PARTS
[16:12] <jono> in there you can discuss the session as it continues
[16:12] <ligemeget> ﻿/ignore #ubuntu-classroom JOINS QUITS PARTS
[16:12] <checkerTR58> ﻿/ignore #ubuntu-classroom JOINS QUITS PARTS
[16:12] <jono> people, stop with the ignore messages
[16:12] <jrib> that /ignore thing won't do anything if you leave spaces in the beginning other than spam the channel :)
[16:13] <Odd-rationale> guys, don't put a space infront of the /
[16:13] <jono> we will finish this session a little early for you to set up /ignore - please stop doing it now
[16:13] <ragsagar> how i can escape from this messages?
[16:13] <Hobbsee> ragsagar: type /part
[16:13] <ragsagar> hi jono
[16:14] <Gektor> )
[16:14] <jono> questions are an important part of open week
[16:14] <jono> as a session is going on you are welcome to  ask a bunch of questions in #ubuntu-classroom-chat
[16:15] <jono> but start each question with this: "QUESTION:" - and then your question
[16:15] <jono> for example:
[16:15] <jono> QUESTION: Jono, why is your beard so cool?
[16:15] <jono> or maybe:
[16:15] <jono> QUESTION: Is it true that you are so metal, that you eat small cars for breakfast?
[16:16] <jono> most session speakers will then pick out the questions as they go, or have a bunch of questions at the end of the session
[16:17] <jono> if anyone has any problems, or questions, or uncertainties about Ubuntu Open Week - please forward them towards jcastro
[16:17] <jono> he is able to help
[16:17] <jono> now, can everyone give me a big "whooooo!" in #ubuntu-classroom-chat?
[16:17] <jono> :)
[16:18] <jono> hehe, rock and roll :)
[16:18] <jono> ok, I am gonna take a bunch of questions now - Amaranth, hero to all, could you paste them in for me?
 QUESTION: jono, which session are you most looking forward to attending (apart from your own)?
[16:19] <jono> TankEnMate: there are a range of really good sessions that I think will be great
[16:19] <jono> this includes:
[16:19] <jono> Ubuntu Bugsquad + Triaging Bugs - Pedro Villavicencio
[16:20] <jono> Packaging 101 - Sessions 1 and 2 - Daniel Holbach <--- great for getting started with MOTU
[16:20] <jono> KDE 4 - Richard Johnson
[16:21] <jono> Producing Podcasts in Ubuntu - Alan Pope
[16:21] <jono> The Future of the Ubuntu Desktop - Ted Gould
[16:21] <jono> Make X rock! - Bryce Harrington
[16:21] <jono> Ask Mark - Mark Shuttleworth
[16:21] <jono> and a bunch more
[16:21] <jono> also....while I think about it
[16:21] <Amaranth> All of them! :)
[16:22] <jono> come to my next session on Wednesday at 16.00 UTC - that sessions is a general Q+A about anything in the community - come with your burning questions :)
 QUESTION: What measures has the ubuntu community taken to make it as simply as possible for new members to get involved?
[16:23] <jono> Odd-rationale: great question! lots of measures, we are always trying to think of new ways to make the community as simple, open and transparent as possible
[16:23] <jono> in terms of ease of participation we have weeks such as this, as well as Ubuntu Developer Week
[16:23] <jono> there are regular online meetings for a range of teams - for example the MOTU team (who work on packaging) have weekly meetings, Q+A sessions and tutorial sessions
[16:23] <jono> we also like to work with LoCo teams to run localised face to face sessions and more
[16:23] <Hobbsee> jono: fortnightly meetings.
[16:24] <Hobbsee> nto weekly.
[16:24] <jono> Hobbsee: ahhhh oops
[16:24] <jono> we also work to create an open and transparent community - and have the Code of Conduct, the Community Council and various other team councils to help keep things open and friendly
 QUESTION: Will the different sessions end right before the next session begins, or is it more random?
[16:25] <jono> ligemeget: all sessions start on time, but some sessions do finish a little early
[16:25] <Hobbsee> edit:  nto == not.  Typo, sorry.
 QUESTION: Jono, how many people do you expect to join this time Open Week sessions? And in comparison to the last Open Week? (if you have any stats on that)
[16:25] <Amaranth> Not sure about that one.
[16:26] <jono> typically, open week attracts around 300 people to some sessions
[16:26] <jono> some sessions are obviously more populated than others - the Ask Mark session is typically very heavy, with often 500 or more people there
[16:27] <jono> but this is the great thing about Ubuntu Open Week - there is room for everyone :)
 QUESTION: Do you think that a large part of ubuntu success is due to its community?
[16:27] <jono> Martian: for sure
[16:28] <jono> Ubuntu is a very community focussed distribution - the community openness and processes have been there from the very beginning
[16:28] <jono> this is what attracted me to my current job - I loved and still do love the fact that Ubuntu is so community orientated
[16:29] <jono> but there is always room for improvement, always amazing things that we can do - there is so much excitement and buzz around Ubuntu that the Ubuntu community is an amazing place to be :)
[16:29] <jono> as Ubuntu heads forward and becomes an ubiquitous Operating System, we will never compromise on our community ethos - we will always work to ensure the community is an open, inviting and inspiring place to be
 QUESTION: What about ubuntu local communities, how you help to this goups. How you solve support (throught local communities?) in other languages than english? Can non-english speaking peoples participate in central ubuntu community (for example bug reporting)?
[16:30] <Amaranth> mybunche asked a similar question but just about asia and africa
[16:30] <jono> PAtrik81: wow, a bunch of questions in there:
[16:30] <jono> PAtrik81: local communities is critical to our mission
[16:31] <jono> we believe that everyone should have access to free software, and it should also be available in their local language and there should be a local community that is part of the wider global community
[16:31] <jono> most of the work here happens with our incredible LoCo Teams project - a project with over 160 groups all over the world to meet and get exciting and stoked up about Ubuntu
[16:32] <jono> these teams help spread the word about Ubuntu and support Ubuntu users in their area
[16:32] <jono> in terms of the participation of non-english speaking contributors - the community is very much orientated around English - we need a fairly consistant language so the entire community can communicate, and that language is English - however, there are many areas that non-English speaking contributors can help, and LoCo teams is a great example
 QUESTION: Which are the skills in demand so to speak to get involved in the Ubuntu community?
[16:33] <jono> Toznoshio: it depends on what you want to do :) we want to make the community welcoming to a range of skills
[16:33] <jono> so if you like technical subjects such as packaging and development, we have teams such as MOTU to get started with
[16:34] <jono> if you like testing software, finding and investigating bugs - the QA team is a great place to be
[16:34] <jono> if you like writing, the Documentation Team is a great place to help
[16:34] <jono> etc, etc
[16:34] <jono> a core ambition we have is to ensure that *everyone* can help if they have something to offer :)
 QUESTION: what aspect of the Ubuntu community do you see as the most important?
[16:35] <jono> Mez: great question :)
[16:35] <jono> Mez: openness
[16:35] <jono> community is fundamentally based on trust
[16:35] <jono> people need to ensure that the community leaders and the processes that they develop are in the best interests of the community as a whole
[16:36] <jono> trust is incredibly important to me - I want everyone in this room and in the wider community to be able to trust me
[16:36] <jono> and this ethos needs to be spread widely in the community
[16:36] <jono> we can achieve this open processes, open governance and more
[16:37] <jono> this is why we have the Community Council and other councils such as the MOTU Council, Forums Council and the awesome recently formed LoCo Council
 QUESTION: Where can we find a LoCo team and get involved?
[16:37] <jono> Wicks: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/LoCoTeamList :)
 QUESTION: Community, community, community, community community?
[16:38] <Amaranth> (out of questions)
[16:38] <jono> popey: good question
[16:38] <jono> community :)
[16:38] <jono> someone asked how they trust me
[16:38] <jono> let me tend to that
[16:39] <jono> it was Lardarse
[16:39] <Amaranth> Yeah, wanted them to phrase it better
[16:39] <jono> I am not expecting anyone to just intrinsicly trust
[16:39] <jono> me
[16:39] <jono> and I am certainly not expecting people to trust me because I work at Canonical or I have the job title of Ubuntu Community Manager
[16:40] <jono> trust is something that is earned, and I would like people to look at my actions and my work in the community and use that as a basis for trust
[16:40] <jono> I put the interests of the Ubuntu community forward as the utmost importance in my work
[16:40] <jono> and I want the community to feel that I am our there, every day, keeping the interests of the community at the forefront in my mind
[16:41] <jono> and this includes ensuring the community is well prioritised in places such as Canonical
[16:41] <jono> and I want to be 100% clear:
[16:42] <jono> if anyone feels like they don't trust me, or anyone feels like I am doing something wrong, email me, tell me, let me know - jono AT ubuntu DOT com - the door is always open :)
 QUESTION: What has ubuntu done that other distros have not that we were able to increase our user base so much in 4 years? What can ubuntu learn from other foss communities? What can others learn from us?
[16:42] <jono> Odd-rationale: ok a few things here:
[16:43] <jono> in terms of what Ubuntu has done, and think we have carved out an ethos and delivered on it - to make free software readily available in a reliable, easy to use form
[16:44] <jono> we have worked to ensure people use Ubuntu and the can say "it just works"
[16:44] <jono> in terms of learning from other communities - there is always lots to learn, and I am regularly in touch with other community leaders to share notes and explore new and different ideas
[16:44] <jono> and also, if you have ideas for how our community should run, do let me know :)
 QUESTION:  Are there any plans for an Ubuntu User Conference focused on Community/Users, not Ubuntu Live which is focused on business?
[16:45] <jono> dinda: I have thought about this in the past - I think it would be an interesting thing to do - there are no fixed plans right now though
[16:46] <jono> let me ask people the question (answer in #ubuntu-classroom-chat):
[16:46] <jono> would you all be interested in a physical conference about the Ubuntu community?
 QUESTION: How do you plan to get Ubuntu to the masses (regular computer users)?
[16:48] <jono> ubuntued: we need to get it to the passes by continuing to make free software easy to use, intuitive and inspiring - and everyone can help here - everyone should actively spread the word - every little helps
 QUESTION: Can ubuntu community have a say on decisions about movement of ubuntu?
[16:50] <jono> PAtrik81: of course - our community is open - I am always keen to hear your comments and views, and the COmmunity Council is a great place to express views and opinions about proposed processes
 QUESTION: How interoperable ubuntu community with other communities like kubuntu,xubuntu or communities other non ubuntu like distros?
[16:52] <jono> PAtrik81: very interoperable - at a technical level, each of these distros uses the same core platform - essentially, everything below the GUI - at a community level, each of these distros also uses our CoC, uses our processes (such as Ubuntu Membership), joins the LoCo teams and  more
 QUESTION: With community membership, what is the status of the Regional Membership Teams? When will these be established (so I can answer questions about it as they are pm'd to me at least 4 times per day)
[16:53] <jono> nixternal: they are pretty much finalised - the CC is just finalising their set-up - I expect them to be in place this week or next week
[16:53] <jono> ok one more question Amaranth
 QUESTION: Will there be better marketing tools available soon? I'd love to run a 30-minute TV show on our local community channel.
[16:54] <jono> jimcooncat: the marketing team is something I am personally interested in seeing grow - I would love to see you do something such as a local TV show, and get deeply involved in  the marketing team
[16:54] <Amaranth> Do we have an event box or something?
[16:54] <jono> if you do do the show, let me know - that would be super cool :)
[16:55] <jono> Amaranth: event boxes are on my TODO list - I want them for Approved LoCo teams
[16:55] <jono> right
[16:55] <jono> thats me done
[16:55] <jono> my next session is on Wednesday at 16.00 UTC where you can bring more questions
[16:55] <jono> everyone, have a fantastic open week! :)
[16:57] <Amaranth> liw: Looks like you're next. Want me to take off the +m?
[16:58] <liw> Amaranth, let's try without +m, I guess most people have done their /ignore mistakes already; I would like to have someone relay questions from -chat, if possible
[16:58] <Amaranth> Yep, I'm still here for that.
[16:59] <liw> thank you
[16:59] <Amaranth> Or one of the other ops, if they want to take over, I wouldn't mind a break. :)
[16:59] <[Chief]>  /ignore #ubuntu-classroom CRAP NOTICES SNOTES CTCPS JOINS PARTS QUITS KICKS MODES WALLOPS NICKS DCC DCCMSGS CLIENTNOTICES CLIENTCRAP CLIENTERRORS HILIGHTS
[16:59] <liw> that didn't take long :)
[16:59] <Amaranth> liw: Maybe not. :P
[17:00] <jhamer> /ignore #ubuntu-classroom JOINS PARTS QUITS
[17:00] <liw> Amaranth, I guess we want +m back
[17:00] <LainIwakura> QUESTION: Are there steps being taken to better integrate the larger English-speaking Ubuntu community with communities such as Taiwan Ubuntu, which has a very small community and little support to speak of, in terms of documentation, IRC users, and forum users, at least compared to the English-speaking community?
[17:00] <Amaranth> LainIwakura: That question is offtopic for this session.
[17:01] <liw> I guess it's time to start
[17:01] <Amaranth> Yep
[17:02] <liw> this session is meant for people who package stuff for ubuntu (or debian or other distros using the .deb format)
[17:02] <liw> piuparts is a tool for testing whether a package can be installed and removed, or installed, upgraded, and removed
[17:02] <liw> traditionally, that is done by the developer/package maintainer installing it on their own system, and then perhaps removing it, too
[17:03] <liw> piuparts makes that testing more systematic by automating it
[17:03] <liw> this is useful for people making .deb packages: a minimal check of whether anything at all works
[17:03] <liw> case 1: you have a new package, and want to make sure it can be installed and then removed (and purged) to a pristine system
[17:04] <liw> case 2: you have a new version of a package, and want to make sure it can be upgraded from the previous version, already in the archive, and then removed
[17:04] <liw> there are other cases, but mostly for doing distribution wide QA, so we'll ignore those for now
[17:04] <liw> piuparts does not test that the program contained in the package actually works, just that the packaging (postinst and other maintainer scripts) work
[17:05] <liw> for testing whether the program itself works, other tools are needed, such as autopkgtest
[17:05] <liw> piuparts checks for some common errors as well, such as broken symlinks, missing dependencies required by maintainer scripts, and that the package cleans up after itself when removed and purged
[17:06] <liw> this concludes my intro :)
 QUESTION: If it picks up common errors, why not add these checks to linda/lintian ?
[17:07] <liw> lintian does not actually run any of the package's maintainer scripts, piuparts does; the things piuparts check for are for things that lintian cannot check for because of this
[17:07] <liw> (linda has been removed, all its functionality is now provided by lintian, but the same answer applies)
[17:09] <Amaranth> next?
[17:09] <liw> oh, yeah, sorry: next
 QUESTION: does piuparts handle dynamically created files? (ie files that were created by post-inst rather than in the package proper)
[17:09] <liw> TankEnMate, yep, piuparts handles everything that postinst does, except it prevents it from starting services
[17:09] <liw> next
 ﻿QUESTION: Will ﻿piuparts be run against all uploads to REVU?
[17:10] <liw> piuparts the name is short for "package installation, upgrading, and removal testing suite" (I peeked in -chat and saw someone ask that)
[17:11] <liw> I hope piuparts will be run on all uploads to all parts of Ubuntu; I meant to work on that, but got diverted to other things, so it didn't happen for hardy, but let's see what we can make happen for intrepid
 QUESTION: is piuparts ubuntu specific or working on debian, too?
[17:12] <liw> lucash, I originally wrote it specifically for Debian; in fact, it needs some tweaking to work really well for Ubuntu, primarily because Debian has all interesting packages in "main", while Ubuntu's "main" is very small
 QUESTION: do you think piuparts will be added to debuild, as lintian is now, so it can be ran automatically before upload?
[17:13] <liw> stdin, that sounds like an excellent things to suggest to the debuild maintainers
[17:13] <liw> stdin, however, piuparts can be quite slow, and requires root access (for the time being), so it's not a good thing to run it always
[17:14] <Amaranth> Answer to the REVU question is no because piuparts is for binary packages and REVU only deals with source packages. (right?)
 QUESTION: how often does piuparts produce false positives/negatives - and - with this in mind, what benefits does using it have over doing these tests manually
[17:14] <liw> Amaranth, correct on binary packages and piuparts; I guess it would be possible to test-build the packages in REVU and use piuparts on those
[17:16] <liw> Mez, piuparts is pretty good, but not perfect, and it's just imperfect enough that running it on the entire package archive (20 thousand packages) is a bit of a pain when it comes to sorting the results; for people working on a small set of packags, the problems should usually not be visible
[17:17] <liw> the benefit of testing with piuparts is that it is tireless, and does things the same way every time, which is good for quality control; testing things manually, when it's past 05 AM and you needed to be in bed eight hours ago to catch your 07 AM flight... well, manual testing is not as even in quality as automatic testing is
 QUESTION: do you recommend to run piuparts in a chroot or virtual machine, as it seems to need root atm?
[17:19] <liw> piuparts builds the chroot itself (I'll get to how piuparts works in a moment); running piuparts in kvm or virtualbox or another virtual machine is probably a good idea, if you're testing other people's packages
 QUESTION: What was the inspiration for piuparts?
[17:20] <liw> stdin, in 2005 I had a consulting gig for a client to do some QA work on Debian, and I got tired of fixing bugs and testing things manually, so I wrote piuparts instead
[17:20] <liw> next I'll continue with an explanation of how piuparts works, and I*ll take more questions after that
[17:21] <liw> piuparts works by using a chroot; this requires you to run it as root
[17:21] <liw> it installs a minimal debian or ubuntu system in the chroot, using debootstrap, and then installing the package and any dependencies it needs, possibly upgrades to a newer version of the package (but not necessarily its dependencies), and then removes and purges the package
[17:22] <liw> piuparts takes a snapshot of the list of files in the chroot before installing the package, and after removing it, and compares these lists, and complains about any differences
[17:22] <liw> it also keeps track of file modifications
[17:22] <liw> obviously, things that always change, such as /var/log/*, are automatically ignored
[17:22] <liw> to prevent daemons etc from starting, piuparts uses the policy-rc.d mechanism: it creates a /usr/sbin/policy-rc.d that always exits with 101, signalling that no services should start in the chroot; this makes it safer to run piuparts
[17:22] <liw> chroot is not a very safe virtualization mechanism, so if you are testing other people's code, you may want to run it inside kvm or other real virtualization
[17:23] <liw> after you've digested that, questions please
 Is there any sort of override system to make it ignore 'errors' like lintian?
[17:25] <liw> Amaranth, there are some options to disable some tests, but nothing as fancy as lintian has; that's something that should be fixed some day in the future
 QUESTION: "... takes a snapshot of the list of files in the chroot ..." can it also track changes to existing files?
[17:26] <liw> gringo, yeah, it does that, too
 QUESTION: What if you wanted it to check /var/log to ensure a specific log directory got created?  Like /var/log/named for instance?  Can you override it?
[17:27] <liw> funderburg, that's an interesting idea; I hadn't thought of it, so currently the answer is "no, sorry"; also something that needs to be fixed in piuparts in the future: make it easily customizable for different uses
 QUESTION: Is it relatively easy to implement pipuarts as a hook to pbuilder?
[17:29] <liw> mbt, I haven't used pbuilder hooks, but from what I know, it should be possible; I do things by running pbuilder first, then lintian, then piuparts
[17:29] <liw> (I have a script that does that, actually, but that's irrelevant for this)
[17:30] <liw> if someone has a cool way of integrating pbuilder and piuparts with pbuilder hooks, please file a wishlist bug against piuparts in the Debian bug tracking system (bugs.debian.org), since that's where upstream development happens
[17:30] <Amaranth> Can we get your script? :)
 QUESTION: is piuparts capable of being used for all Debian supported architectures?
[17:31] <liw> http://liw.iki.fi/liw/unperish/ is my script, but it's still somewhat specific to my particular circumstances, so might not work for others
[17:32] <liw> lucash, as far as I know, yes
[17:33] <liw> so far nobody has asked the really important question: how do you use piuparts
[17:33] <Amaranth> hehe, let's do that one then :)
[17:33] <liw> I thought you'd never ask :)
 QUESTION: How do I use piuparts?
[17:34] <liw> first, you have to have or build a .deb file, which I will refer to as foo.deb in this session
[17:34] <liw> the command line to run piuparts to test foo.deb is.... wait for it...
[17:34] <liw> piuparts foo.deb
[17:34] <liw> this is not the optimal way of doing it, just the simplest way
[17:34] <liw> you may also want to prefix that with "sudo ", so you run it as root, otherwise it won't work
[17:35] <liw> the reason that is not the optimal way is because piuparts installs a debian or ubuntu system into the chroot, and then all the dependencies... and then removes them
[17:35] <liw> that can be a lot of packages
[17:36] <liw> to speed things up a bit, you can "cache" the contents of the chroot (before foo.deb + deps are installed)
[17:36]  * liw waves to Mez
[17:36]  * Mez waves back
[17:37] <liw> the simple way of doing the caching is by having piuparts re-use the tarball that pbuilder creates, the basetgz one
[17:37] <liw> like this: sudo piuparts -p foo.deb
[17:37] <liw> piuparts can also build its own tarball: sudo piuparts -s pink.tar.gz foo.deb
[17:37] <liw> the -s means "save", so you need to run piuparts once with -s
[17:38] <liw> then the remaining time, you can just use it: sudo piuparts -b pink.tar.gz foo.deb
[17:38] <liw> now, the next thing I'm going to tell you is how to interpret the piuparts output
[17:39] <liw> unfortunately, since packages can fail in so innovative and amazing ways, piuparts does not try to analyze things in much detail, it just tells you whether the package test was a PASS or a FAIL, or whether there was an ERROR
[17:39] <liw> but at least it output hundreds of kilobytes of text in which it embeds that result... ;-)
[17:40] <liw> piuparts by default logs everything: all the commands it runs, and all their output, and this is a lot of text
[17:40] <liw> towards the end (not always quite at the end, but usually within the last 50 lines or so), there is a line with PASS, FAIL, or ERROR, and that tells you the result
[17:41] <liw> reading the surrounding log will almost always tell you what went wrong
[17:42] <liw> so it's mostly long, not really difficult as such, but since there's a lot of it, it is daunting, and every time I get to read one, I get a little headache
[17:42] <liw> I've been meaning to fix this since 2005, but the headache has never been big enough
[17:42] <liw> "PASS" means the test succeeded, "FAIL" that it failed, and "ERROR" that some program that piuparts needed to run did not work
[17:43] <liw> ok, question time again
 QUESTION: what do you expect from piuparts in the future?
[17:43] <liw> lucash, I expect it to be re-thought from the scratch; it's been three years, and we've gained a lot of experience in how it works well and how it does not work well, and also the surrounding world has changed
[17:44] <liw> for example, real virtualization is now a viable option...
[17:44] <liw> exactly how piuparts will change I don't yet know, that discussion needs to happen with the debian and ubuntu developer communities
[17:44] <liw> which I hope to start after my vacation ;-)
 QUESTION: does the chroot cache need to be upgraded manually?
[17:45] <liw> afflux, yes
[17:45] <liw> pbuilder obviously updates its own, and that's typically good enough for most people, so it's easiest to just use -p
[17:46] <liw> for those of use who need piuparts to build its own chroot... rm -f pink.tar.gz; then run piuparts with -s again
 QUESTION: Will piuparts make me breakfast? ;)
[17:46] <Amaranth> (out of questions)
[17:46] <liw> Amaranth, yes
[17:47] <Amaranth> Awesome, tell it I want scrambled eggs and hashbrowns.
[17:47] <liw> sorry, only the burnt porridge option is currently implemented
[17:47] <Amaranth> Darn, always a catch. :/
[17:47] <Amaranth> Anyhow, I think we're done with questions, you have anything else you want to say?
[17:48] <liw> for those who want to play with piuparts, I could perhaps point out the -a option, which lets you test packages without having a .deb file
[17:48] <liw> piuparts -a hello
[17:48] <liw> that fetches the hello packag e(it's a real package) from the archive and tests that
[17:48] <liw> other than that, I'm done
[17:49] <liw> thank you all, lots of good, pertinent questions! thank you for your interest, and please use piuparts before your next upload :)
[17:49] <Amaranth> Alright, thanks for running this session. I think I'll use piuparts now :)
[17:53] <Amaranth> We've still got a few minutes, just getting the topic setup
[18:00] <Amaranth> bdmurray: ?
[18:00] <bdmurray> Amaranth: I'm all set.
[18:00] <Amaranth> Alright, whenever you're ready
[18:01] <bdmurray> I'm here to talk to you today about how to report bugs about Ubuntu as there are various different ways you can do it.
[18:01] <bdmurray> Additionally, I'll cover how to make your bug report more likely to get fixed!
[18:01] <bdmurray> Perhaps you are wondering what exactly is a bug?
[18:02] <bdmurray> In computer software it is an error or a flaw that makes it behave in ways for which it wasn't designed.
[18:02] <bdmurray>  Some of these can result in crashes, others may have a subtle effect on functionality, others can be as simple as spelling errors.
[18:02] <bdmurray> By reporting these issues you can help to make Ubuntu even better than it already is.
[18:03] <bdmurray> Reported bugs are kept in Launchpad, the bug tracking system used by Ubuntu.
[18:03] <bdmurray> Let's look at a sample bug report - http://launchpad.net/bugs/222278
[18:03] <bdmurray> There are four things here that I want to point out.
[18:04] <bdmurray> 1) The bug's title or summary is 'upgrade hangs in checkViewDepends()'
[18:04] <bdmurray>  2) In the Affects table you'll see that this bug report affects 'update-manager (Ubuntu)' this is the package / application which with the bug is about.
[18:04] <bdmurray> 3) Bug's have an "Bug description" which is filled out when you are reporting a bug.
[18:05] <bdmurray> 4) And you'll notice there are four bug comments each containing an attachment with supporting information about the bug.
[18:05] <bdmurray> Are there any questions about what a bug is or what a bug report looks like?
[18:07] <Amaranth> I guess not.
[18:07] <bdmurray> Okay, moving on then!
[18:07] <bdmurray> So, how can bugs be reported to Launchpad?
[18:07] <bdmurray> They can be reported via the web interface at https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+filebug
[18:08] <bdmurray> Here you start by  filling out the summary which becomes the bug's tile.
[18:08] <bdmurray> After which you are asked for the package affected and for 'Futher information' which becomes the bug's description.
[18:08] <bdmurray> The description should contain at a minimum the following information:
[18:08] <bdmurray> 1) The release of Ubuntu that you found the bug in.
[18:09] <bdmurray> This is important as there are multiple different versions of Ubuntu that are currently supported.
[18:09] <bdmurray> 2) The version of the package you found the bug in.
[18:09] <bdmurray> 3) What you expected to happen
[18:09] <bdmurray> and ...
[18:09] <bdmurray> 4) What happened instead
[18:10] <bdmurray> Additionally, you also have the opportunity to add an attachment to your bug when you are reporting it via the web interface.
[18:10] <bdmurray> Another way to report a bug is using apport an automated problem report application included with Ubuntu.
[18:11] <bdmurray> The advantage to using apport is that it automatically collects information about the release of Ubuntu you are using and the version of the package / application that you are reporting the bug about.
[18:11] <bdmurray> Let's say that you have encountered a bug with Firefox.
[18:11] <bdmurray> You can use apport to report the bug by going to Firefox's "Help" menu and choosing "Report a Problem".
[18:12] <bdmurray> Apport will start collecing information about your bug and then open a new browser window where you enter the bug's summary / title and then enter the bug's description.
[18:12] <bdmurray> An example of a bug reported using the "Report a Problem" menu item is http://launchpad.net/bugs/223455
[18:12] <Amaranth> Not just firefox, that's how you report bugs against firefox
[18:13] <bdmurray> Right, lots of applications have the "Report a Problem" functionality integrated into them.
[18:14] <bdmurray> Looking at the bug 223455 you'll notice that a lot of information has been gathered automatically including the release of Ubuntu, "DistroRelease", the package and version, and the kernel version among other things.
[18:14] <bdmurray> All of these help to make your bug report more complete and potentially easier to fix!
[18:15] <bdmurray> Apport also has a command line interface, called apport-cli, where you can report a bug about a specific package via 'apport-cli -f -p PACKAGE'.
[18:16] <bdmurray> This is useful for applications without a GUI interface like irssi, mutt, and apache.
[18:16] <bdmurray> Additionally, with apport-cli you can specify a process id number via 'apport-cli -f -P PID'.
[18:17] <bdmurray> Using apport is the prefereed way to report bugs about Ubuntu as they contain detailed information about the application and your system.
[18:18] <bdmurray> Further infromation about reporting bugs can be found at https://help.ubuntu.com/community/ReportingBugs .
[18:18] <bdmurray> Are there any questions about how to report bugs to Launchpad or using apport?
 QUESTION:  Launchpad Bugs requires me to name a project where the bug belongs to. This repels me often from reporting a bug as there is no list where I can select from the 'project' that you want to know. Where can I find such a list?
[18:21] <bdmurray> A 'project' is a software project that uses Launchpad and Ubuntu is one of the 'projects' that use Launchpad.  Other examples of projects are jokosher, inkscape and bughelper.
[18:21] <bdmurray> I think your question is actually about finding the name of the package to report the bug about.  Is that correct bullgard4?
[18:22] <Amaranth> bdmurray: Yes
[18:23] <bdmurray> Okay, not to dodge your question but I'm planning on covering that next actually.  Are there any other questions about the material covered so far?
 QUESTION: Is there a non-Web interface way to report bugs to LP?
[18:24] <bdmurray> Yes, it is possible to send e-mail to 'new@bugs.launchpad.net' to report a new bug.  However, your e-mail must be GPG signed.
[18:25] <bdmurray> You can find additional information about using the e-mail interface at https://help.launchpad.net/BugTrackerEmailInterface .
[18:28] <bdmurray> Earlier there was a question about identifying the right package to report your bug about.
[18:29] <bdmurray> This is a critical part of making your bug report more likely to get fixed.
[18:30] <bdmurray> If your bug does not have a package assigned it is much less likely to get looked at by anyone, let alone by the developer of the application you are having an issue with.
[18:30] <bdmurray> Some helpful hints for fidnign the proper package are at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/FindRightPackage
[18:31] <bdmurray> That wiki page contains the names of packages that may be hard to discover.
[18:31] <bdmurray> For example, bugs about the kernel in Hardy Heron should be reported about the 'linux' package.
[18:33] <bdmurray> Additionally there are instructions on how to find out the name of a running application.  Which you might need to do if the application doesn't have apport "Report a Problem" functionality.
[18:36] <bdmurray> Are there any questions about identifying the package to file a bug about?
[18:38] <bdmurray> < _stink_> QUESTION: Let's say I find a bug in a project that's small,  and I notify the dev directly. Should I still file the bug on  LP?
[18:39] <bdmurray> If that package is one that is included with Ubuntu it should be reported to Launchpad.
[18:39] <bdmurray> This will allow us to keep track of status of the bug "upstream" and incorporate the fix into Ubuntu.
[18:41] <bdmurray> An important part of a bug's life cycle is it entering the Confirmed or Triaged status.
[18:41] <bdmurray> When a bug is Confirmed it means that someone has been able to recreate the bug or believes sufficient information has been included in the bug report for a developer to start working on it.
[18:42] <bdmurray> Any Launchpad user can confirm a bug report, but please don't confirm your own!  This defeats the purpose of the Confirmed status.
[18:42] <bdmurray> What this means though is that you should include extremely detailed steps to recreate the bug in it's description.
[18:43] <bdmurray> If they are detailed enough anyone using the same software should be able to confirm the bug report, not just a developer.
[18:43] <bdmurray> It is far better to have too much detail than not enough.
[18:44] <bdmurray> Some fairly simple things you can do to make your bug report easier for someone to confirm or triage are including a screenshot via Print Screen.
[18:44] <bdmurray> Taking a digital picture of the bug if it is one that won't show up in a screenshot.
[18:45] <bdmurray> It is even possible to take a "screencast", capture video of your desktop, using an application like istanbul.
[18:46] <bdmurray> An example of a bug with a screencast is https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/libwnck/+bug/212425 .
[18:47] <bdmurray> Having a screencast makes the steps to recreate the bug easy to see and can help overcome language barriers.
[18:48] <bdmurray> One of the best ways to make your bug report more likely to be fixed is to follow the debugging procedures for the package or subsystem the bug is about!
[18:48] <bdmurray> These have been written by bug triagers or the developer of the software and following them will help you create a more detailed bug report.
[18:48] <bdmurray> You can find the list of debugging procedures at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DebuggingProcedures
[18:49] <bdmurray> Are there any questions about how to report a bug about Ubuntu and making a detailed and complete bug report?
[18:52] <bdmurray>  < toobuntu> QUESTION: If the wrong package was initially assigned to the
[18:52] <bdmurray>                   bug, and later the reporter realizes that it should be
[18:52] <bdmurray>                   changed or the dev marks it as invalid, does a new bug need
[18:52] <bdmurray> to be filed or can the O.P. change the package name?
[18:52] <bdmurray> Sorry about that!  That's a good question.
[18:53] <bdmurray> Yes, it is possible for the original reporter to change the package name for a bug report.
[18:53] <bdmurray> Let's look at bug https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/223772
[18:54] <bdmurray> You can see right now that it affects "Ubuntu" this is the distribution in general.
[18:54] <bdmurray> The package can be changed by clicking on one of the downward arrow type things.
[18:55] <bdmurray> A new part of the page will be revealed where you can see the package name is blank.  Here you can add the right package name.
[18:55] <bdmurray> < Leviath> QUESTION: When to report a bug to the developers of the  software and when Launchpad?
[18:56] <bdmurray> Ubuntu contains a lot of software that isn't developed by the distribution so this is a very relevant question.
[18:57] <bdmurray> Let's consider inkscape for example.  The package we ship can be slightly different from the upstream version.
[18:58] <bdmurray> So, if you have the bug with Ubuntu's version of inkscape the bug should be reported to Launchpad about the inkscape package in Ubuntu.
[18:58] <bdmurray> Then you could "forward" the bug to the inkscape upstream project.
[18:59] <bdmurray> Ideally, this should be done after confirming that the bug exists in the upstream version of inkscape.
[18:59] <bdmurray> Otherwise we are causing unnecessary work for the upstream developers.
[19:00] <bdmurray> I'm afraid that's all I have time for.  However, if you have any questions about this class or reporting bugs about Ubuntu you can find myself and the rest of the bugsquad in #ubuntu-bugs.  Thanks for coming!
[19:05] <pedro_> it seems we are ready now
[19:06] <pedro_> good day freedom lovers!
[19:06] <iulian> Hello everyone!
[19:06] <pedro_> My name is Pedro Villavicencio and I'm going to introduce you to the Bug triaging
[19:06] <pedro_> i'm here with the bugsquad member Iulian, he's going to deal with the questions of you at the ubuntu-classroom-chat
[19:07] <pedro_> so feel free to ask whenever you want to
[19:07] <pedro_> the good Brian Murray already talked to you about ways to filing bugs in Ubuntu
[19:07] <pedro_> great session so we already know how to do some things on launchpad
[19:08] <pedro_> once you filed your bug in launchpad, someone needs to take care of it
[19:08] <pedro_> and that team on Ubuntu is called the "Ubuntu BugSquad"
[19:09] <pedro_> the Ubuntu Bugsquad is the first point of contact for the bugs filed about Ubuntu
[19:09] <pedro_> we keep track of them and try to make sure that major bugs do not go unnoticed by developers
[19:09] <pedro_> and we do this with a process called "Triage", will talk to you about it in a few
[19:10] <pedro_> Working with the Bug Squad it's an excellent way to start helping out and learn a lot about Ubuntu and it's infrastructure
[19:10] <pedro_> You do not need any programming knowledge to join the team in fact it is a great way to return something to our lovely Ubuntu project if you cannot program at all
[19:10] <pedro_> We have a team on LP https://edge.launchpad.net/~bugsquad it's an open team, so everybody can join us
[19:11] <pedro_> so please feel free to do it if you're willing to help
[19:11] <pedro_> we also have a mailing list https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-bugsquad and a couple of IRC Channels where bugs are discussed #ubuntu-bugs and announced #ubuntu-bugs-announce
[19:12] <pedro_> And if you later on have questions about an specific project you can look to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/BugSquad/Contacts to see to who you can ask about it.
[19:12] <pedro_> and we hope to see your name there in the short term :-)
[19:12] <pedro_> Ok so Bug Triage
[19:13] <pedro_> Triaging bugs consists of a few things
[19:13] <pedro_> - Responding to new bugs as they are filed
[19:14] <pedro_> - Ensuring that new bugs have all the necessary information, you already learned how to submit good quality bug reports in previous session
[19:15] <pedro_> - Assigning bugs to the proper package: this was also one of the topics that Brian talked to you about it
[19:15] <pedro_> we currently have around 3000 bugs without a package
[19:15] <pedro_> you can take a look to a brief list here http://tinyurl.com/32l4gd
[19:15] <pedro_> it's a big quantity of bugs, and with your help we can reduce that :-)
[19:16] <pedro_> - Confirming bugs reports by testing them
[19:16] <pedro_> - Setting the right priority and status
[19:16] <pedro_> - Searching for duplicates and marking them as such
[19:17] <pedro_> - Sending bugs to their upstream authors when needed
[19:31] <iulian> Ok, it seems that pedro_ is having some problems, don't know. Will try to replace him.
[19:33] <iulian> Let's see the how can we change the status of a bug and what means.
[19:33] <pedro_> sorry guys, my network connection went down
[19:33] <pedro_> where are we?
[19:33] <iulian> Cool, nice to have you back.
 QUESTION: what to do when the bug cant be reproduced but it still happens on the persons machine?
[19:35] <pedro_> CaioAlonso: depending on where you're having the issue, there's detailed instructions on how to debug your problem
[19:35] <pedro_> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/DebuggingProcedures
[19:36] <pedro_> ok let's make this a bit fast
[19:36] <pedro_> we currently have 9 status on launchpad
[19:36] <pedro_> New, Incomplete, Invalid, Confirmed, Triaged, In Progress, Fix Committed, Fix Released and Won't Fix
[19:36] <pedro_> The first ones are kinda clear, New status means that no one has triaged or confirmed
[19:36] <pedro_> The Incomplete status means that the bug is missing some information for example a debugging backtrace of a crash or steps in order to trigger the bug.
[19:37] <pedro_> A Confirmed is almost self explanatory, someone else than the reporter have the same bug
[19:37] <pedro_> and please do not confirm your own reports
[19:37] <pedro_> The Triaged status is set by a member of the Ubuntu Bug Control team when they think that the bug has enough information for a developer to start working on fix the issue
[19:38] <pedro_> If a bug was marked as Triaged and a Developer is working on fixing the bug, that report needs to be marked as "In Progress", because there's somebody working on it
[19:38] <pedro_> and please use that status only for that task
[19:39] <pedro_> If that developer committed the fix to a bzr branch or to another repository the bug needs to be marked as Fix Committed and when that fix get released the status of the bug is changed to Fix Released
[19:39] <pedro_> released meaning available on our Ubuntu official repositories
[19:40] <pedro_> if you want to read a bit more you can have a look to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/Status
 QUESTION: You said not to mark one's own bugs as "Confirmed." However, if there is confirmation in the bug comments, or the Confirmed status is required as part of submission for sponsorship, would those qualify as valid exemptions?
[19:41] <pedro_> yes, if somebody confirmed the bug on the comments but forgot to change the status, it's ok to change it yourself
[19:42] <pedro_> and one important issue on this too, when you change a status , please indicate on a comment why you change it
[19:42] <pedro_> a little comment with "I can confirm this" or "Setting as incomplete because why are waiting for more information"
[19:43] <pedro_> are ok
[19:43] <pedro_> but if you want to do things in a good quality
[19:43] <pedro_> you might want to use https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/Responses
[19:43] <pedro_> those are the stock responses that everybody on the bugsquad use daily
 QUESTION: How do we deal with bug reports containing error messages in another language than English?
[19:45] <pedro_> well that depends, if somebody filed a bug in spanish and you talk spanish, translate the report
[19:45] <pedro_> otherwise if you have time you can ask for more info or reject the bug waiting for a new one in English
[19:45] <pedro_> more info meaning "Please translate this in English"
[19:45] <pedro_> s/in/into
[19:46] <pedro_> sadly we have to deal with hundreds of reports daily and we don't have enough resources to translate all of them
[19:46] <pedro_> ok let's grab another iulian
 QUESTION: What's the difference between Confirmed and Triaged?
[19:47] <pedro_> the Confirmed status in general means that other person than the reporter is having the issue so they confirm the bug
[19:48] <pedro_> if that bug report have enough information the status is changed to Triaged by an Ubuntu Bug Control member
[19:48] <pedro_> enough information for a developer to start working on fixing the issue
[19:49] <pedro_> Ok so Bug Importance
[19:49] <pedro_> As soon as you have done enough good triage work, you can apply to the ubuntu-bugcontrol team which is the one with more rights over the reports, so basically you can change the importance of the bugs and set the Won't Fix status, the requirements for join the team are available here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuBugControl
[19:49] <pedro_> Ok so we have 6 importances, Undecided, Wishlist, Low, Medium, High and Critical. During your first weeks on the BugSquad you're probably not going to use the importances, so i'm going to describe you just some of them and you can read more about them here: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/Importance
[19:50] <pedro_> The Undecided one is the default for the new bugs and it means that there's no sufficient information to determine the importance.
[19:50] <pedro_> A Wishlist is a request to add a new feature to the programs available on Ubuntu, but if it's too complex to be implemented it should rather be written as a feature specification, for instructions on how to do this you can look to https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FeatureSpecifications and also if you have some ideas that you'd like to see included on Ubuntu you can use the Ubuntu Brainstorm http://brainstorm.ubuntu.com/
[19:51] <pedro_> and a Low importance bug is the one that affect functionality on the software for example an usability problem or just a typo.
[19:51] <pedro_> If you are interested you can adopt a package and start triaging bugs on it, there's a loooong list of Universe packages needing love
[19:51] <pedro_> if you're interested on GNOME I've collected a list of GNOME related packages https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Bugs/Upstream/GNOME/UniverseList
[19:52] <pedro_> for example if you use Banshee, you can work on it and help the project and Ubuntu
[19:52] <pedro_> Does everybody knows about 5-a-day?
[19:53] <pedro_> 5-A-Day means everybody will do 5 (or more) bugs a day every day, you can look for 5-a-day stats at http://daniel.holba.ch/5-a-day-stats/
[19:53] <pedro_>  and for example if you want to work with your LoCo team on a specific task or do a bug jam session you can use 5-a-day too to show other people your team progress
[19:53] <pedro_> if you look to almost the bottom of the page you'll see what i'm talking about, And yes the kubuntu-de guys are just awesome, so come on people let's follow them :-)
[19:54] <pedro_> more information about it here https://wiki.ubuntu.com/5-A-Day
[19:55] <pedro_> At the Bugsquad we also organize Bug Days also known as Hug Days, well the idea of a hug day is to work together with the bugsquad and project maintainers on a specific task, weekly we organize two hug days, one the Tuesday and another one the Thursday
[19:55] <pedro_> first one are more general hug days, focused for example of the bugs without a package and the Thursday ones are focused on desktop related task like compiz, firefox and GNOME applications
[19:55] <pedro_> If you want to join us at Hug Days just come to #ubuntu-bugs the days I've mentioned and join the fun, of course everyday is a perfect day for triaging and help your lovely linux distribution
[19:56] <pedro_> more information about them available here https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuBugDay
[19:56] <pedro_> ok last questions!
 QUESTION: Is there a way to add another Ubuntu package to a bug report?  E.g. when a dev marks as invalid for the first package the bug was assigned to, can the reporter add another Ubuntu package (as opposed to an upstream project) or must a new bug be filed?
[19:57] <pedro_> toobuntu: you can create another task for it
[19:58] <pedro_> but sometimes it's better to just re assigning it
[19:58] <pedro_> that depends, really, so you can always ask on #ubuntu-bugs to our lovely and cool bugsquad
[19:59] <pedro_> another?
 QUESTIONS: bug squad memebers earn 'karma' for their efforts. what is it good for? are you working solely for community ideals or have any profit? just interesting :)
[19:59] <pedro_> haha funny one
[20:00] <pedro_> rubicon_: well if you have more karma on bug management it means that you know what you're doing
[20:00] <pedro_> so for example if there's another person that doesn't know something
[20:00] <pedro_> and just set the status to "Incomplete"
[20:00] <pedro_> but the right status is "In Progress"
[20:01] <pedro_> if the person with more karma set the status it means that he really knows what's he's doing and his oppinion needs to be respected
[20:01] <pedro_> but besides that
[20:01] <pedro_> karma means nothing else
[20:01] <pedro_> you cannot change it for a t-shirt
[20:01] <pedro_> but that'd be really nice
[20:01] <pedro_> ;-)
[20:01] <pedro_> ok so we're running out of time
[20:02] <pedro_> thanks you all for the patience and sorry for leaving during the session
[20:02] <pedro_> i'll kill my isp provider don't worry
[20:02] <pedro_> thanks you all!!
[20:02] <iulian> Thank you all and apologies for the interruption.
[20:02]  * pedro_ hugs iulian
[20:03] <pedro_> hope to see you all on #ubuntu-bugs pretty soon ;-)
[20:03] <pedro_> thanks!
[20:03]  * iulian hugs pedro_  back and ALL
[20:04] <ompaul> what is next?
[20:06] <ogasawara_> ok, lets get started
[20:06] <ogasawara_> Hi Everyone!  Welcome to the session on building an upstream kernel.
[20:06] <ogasawara_> My name is Leann Ogasawara and I work for Canonical as a member of the Ubuntu QA Team.
[20:06] <ogasawara_> Lets begin with a little background information on why you'd even want to build the upstream kernel.
[20:07] <ogasawara_> At the beginning of every development cycle, the Ubuntu kernel team rebases the Ubuntu kernel with the upstream vanilla kernel.
[20:07] <ogasawara_> The upstream vanilla kernel is available at http://www.kernel.org and is the kernel maintained by Linus Torvalds.
[20:07] <ogasawara_> At a certain point in the development cycle, the Ubuntu kernel team will cease rebasing with the upstream kernel and focus on stabilizing the Ubuntu kernel code base.
[20:07] <ogasawara_> During this whole development phase, many Ubuntu users are testing and reporting bugs against the actively developed Ubuntu kernel.
[20:08] <ogasawara_> Unfortunately, it is sometimes the case that a bug will exist not only in the Ubuntu kernel code base, but will also exist in the upstream vanilla kernel as well.
[20:08] <ogasawara_> It may also be the case that the bug is already fixed upstream and the fix should be pulled into the Ubuntu kernel.
[20:08] <ogasawara_> Knowing how to build an upstream kernel helps to verify either of these scenarios.
[20:08] <ogasawara_> So lets walk through the steps to build the upstream kernel.
[20:09] <ogasawara_> The actual build process will likely take longer than we time we have allotted here for this session so I'll leave the actual execution of the steps for you to do on your own time.
[20:09] <ogasawara_> Also, please note that the steps we'll be going through is just one way you can go about building the upstream kernel.
[20:09] <ogasawara_> Ok, first you need to install some tools which will help with the process:
[20:09] <ogasawara_> sudo apt-get install git-core kernel-package fakeroot
[20:09] <ogasawara_> Next we need to get the upstream kernel source.
[20:10] <ogasawara_> There are a few different ways to get the upstream kernel source.
[20:10] <ogasawara_> As I had mentioned previously, you could grab the tarball available at http://kernel.org
[20:10] <ogasawara_> Or another option is cloning the kernel git tree - http://git.kernel.org
[20:10] <ogasawara_> We'll clone the git tree in this example:
[20:10] <ogasawara_> git clone git://git.kernel.org/pub/scm/linux/kernel/git/torvalds/linux-2.6.git
[20:10] <ogasawara_> Now we need to configure the kernel.
[20:11] <ogasawara_> Ubuntu has already provided us with a kernel config file that we can use.
[20:11] <ogasawara_> Lets just copy that file into the git tree we cloned:
[20:11] <ogasawara_> cd linux-2.6; cp /boot/config-`uname -r` .config
[20:11] <ogasawara_> The Ubuntu kernel config file might need some slight updates so run the following and answer any questions that you get prompted for:
[20:11] <ogasawara_> make oldconfig
[20:11] <ogasawara_> Now lets start building the kernel (this will create linux-image and linux-header .deb files):
[20:12] <ogasawara_> fakeroot make-kpkg --initrd --append-to-version=-custom kernel_image kernel_headers
[20:12] <ogasawara_> This will take a while.  After this finishes we're ready to install:
[20:12] <ogasawara_> cd ..; sudo dpkg -i linux-image-2.6.25-custom_2.6.25-custom-10.00.Custom_i386.deb linux-headers-2.6.25-custom_2.6.25-custom-10.00.Custom_i386.deb
[20:12] <ogasawara_> Obviously the exact names of the linux-image and linux-header files will vary depending which kernel version you are building.
[20:13] <ogasawara_> Now all you have to do is reboot and choose the new kernel you just built.
[20:13] <ogasawara_> QUESTION:  Upstream kernels can be built far faster with multi-core machines.  Does make-kpkg offer a way to do a parallel build of a kernel like the lower-level "make -j 5" would (for say, a quad-core)?
[20:14] <ogasawara_> mbt:  yes, use CONCURRENCY_LEVEL=N
[20:15] <ogasawara_> CaioAlonso> QUESTION: getting the kernel with git will give you the latest revision (presumably unstable) or the latest stable version?
[20:15] <ogasawara_> CaioAlonso: pulling the kernel with git will get you the latest revision, not necessarily the latest stable version
[20:16] <ogasawara_> ok, moving on (I'll try to field more questions along the way)
[20:16] <ogasawara_> Once you have booted into the kernel, if the bug you're experiencing still exists, that means the bug also exists in the upstream kernel.
[20:16] <ogasawara_> The upstream kernel has its own bug tracking system at http://bugzilla.kernel.org
[20:17] <ogasawara_> It's helpful to also report your bug to the upstream bugzilla.
[20:17] <ogasawara_> It is often the case that once a bug is escalated upstream there is a quick resolution through the help and support of the mainline kernel community.
[20:17] <ogasawara_> Bug reports in Launchpad can also be set up to monitor the upstream bugzilla report.
[20:17] <ogasawara_> It's preferred to have the fix go into the upstream kernel first and then be pulled into the Ubuntu kernel.
[20:18] <ogasawara_> This helps ensure the fix is available to the entire kernel community.
[20:18] <ogasawara_> It's also easier on the Ubuntu kernel team not having to maintain out of tree patches.
[20:18] <ogasawara_> When opening an upstream kernel bugzilla report, there are a few helpful hints to provide the upstream kernel developers with as much information about your bug.
[20:18] <ogasawara_> 1. Verify your bug does not already exist in the upstream bugzilla bugtracking system.
[20:19] <ogasawara_> 2. Include kernel version
[20:19] <ogasawara_> 3. Include your dmesg output
[20:19] <ogasawara_> 4. Include 'sudo lspci -vvnn' output
[20:19] <ogasawara_> 5. Most importantly, if this is a regression, the best information you can provide the kernel developers is the information from doing a git bisect. This will hopefully narrow down the exact patch that is causing the regression. http://www.kernel.org/doc/local/git-quick.html#bisect
[20:19] <ogasawara_> 6. If you've also opened a Launchpad bug report about the bug, you can set up your Launchpad bug report to monitor the upstream bugzilla
[20:19] <ogasawara_> I've documented the entire upstream kernel build process that we just went though at:  https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeam/GitKernelBuild
[20:20] <ogasawara_> That wiki also covers how to file the upstream bug report and also how to link that upstream bug report to the Launchpad bug report.
[20:20] <ogasawara_> Now that you know how to build the upstream vanilla kernel, some of you may be wondering how to build the Ubuntu kernel.
[20:20] <ogasawara_> You can build the Ubuntu kernel using the same exact steps we went through above.
[20:20] <ogasawara_> The Ubuntu kernel git trees can be found at:
[20:21] <ogasawara_> http://kernel.ubuntu.com/git
[20:21] <ogasawara_> Just like we cloned the upstream kernel git tree, you can do the same for the Ubuntu kernel:
[20:21] <ogasawara_> git clone git://kernel.ubuntu.com/ubuntu/ubuntu-intrepid.git
[20:21] <ogasawara_> That will clone the upcoming Intrepid Ibex 8.10 kernel that is currently under development.
[20:21] <ogasawara_> However, the Intrepid kernel is still under going rapid changes so there are no guarantees that it will build cleanly just yet.
[20:21] <ogasawara_> The Ubuntu kernel git trees for previous kernel release for say Dapper, Edgy, Feisty, Gutsy, and Hardy are also still available at http://kernel.ubuntu.com/git
[20:22] <ogasawara_> The Ubuntu kernel source however provides some scripts to hopefully make the above build process we walked through even easier.
[20:22] <ogasawara_> Refer to the following wiki under the "Performing builds" section for more information.
[20:22] <ogasawara_> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelMaintenance
[20:22] <ogasawara_> There is also information there on how to build some of the other kernel related packages such as linux-ubuntu-modules.
[20:22] <ogasawara_> I'll let you go through the steps outlined there on your own time.  It should be fairly self explanatory.
 Question: How can I download a stable ubuntu-kernel patchset to patch and build it on my own
[20:24] <ogasawara_> Flyser: I'm not aware of the kernel team releasing an ubuntu-specific patch set specifically
[20:25] <ogasawara_> Flyser: sorry that doesn't really help you much
[20:25] <ogasawara_> Lets get back to why again we're building the upstream and Ubuntu kernels
[20:25] <ogasawara_> We already covered the case where you've confirmed the bug exists upstream as well as in the Ubuntu kernel.
[20:25] <ogasawara_> So what if it's the case that you discover your bug is resolved in the upstream kernel but not in the Ubuntu kernel?
[20:26] <ogasawara_> Many times you may know the exact patch which has been committed upstream and needs to be pulled into the Ubuntu kernel.
[20:26] <ogasawara_> The most useful information you can provide the Ubuntu kernel team will be the upstream git commit id and description.
[20:26] <ogasawara_> The upstream git commit id and description can be found using the following command from within the upstream git kernel tree:
[20:26] <ogasawara_> git log [file|commit id]
[20:26] <ogasawara_> For example:
[20:26] <ogasawara_> ogasawara@emiko:~/linux-2.6$ git log drivers/media/video/cx88/cx88-cards.c
[20:26] <ogasawara_> commit 6b92b3bd7ac91b7e255541f4be9bfd55b12dae41
[20:26] <ogasawara_> Author: Steven Toth <stoth@hauppauge.com>
[20:26] <ogasawara_> Date:   Sat Apr 5 16:45:57 2008 -0300
[20:26] <ogasawara_>     V4L/DVB (7642): cx88: enable radio GPIO correctly
[20:26] <ogasawara_>     
[20:26] <ogasawara_>     cx88: enable radio GPIO correctly.
[20:27] <ogasawara_>     
[20:27] <ogasawara_>     Signed-off-by: Steven Toth <stoth@hauppauge.com>
[20:27] <ogasawara_>     Signed-off-by: Mauro Carvalho Chehab <mchehab@infradead.org>
[20:27] <ogasawara_> You can also add the -p flag to view the actual patch associated with that commit:
[20:27] <ogasawara_> git log -p drivers/media/video/cx88/cx88-cards.c
[20:27] <ogasawara_> or
[20:27] <ogasawara_> git log -p 6b92b3bd7ac91b7e255541f4be9bfd55b12dae41
[20:27] <ogasawara_> They should both provide you with the same information.
[20:28] <ogasawara_> Along with proving the upstream git commit id and description, it would be great if you could also confirm the patch does indeed resolve the issue when applied to the Ubuntu kernel source.
[20:28] <ogasawara_> You can save the patch output from running the 'git log -p' command and apply it to the Ubuntu kernel source.
[20:28] <ogasawara_> For those unfamiliar on how to patch the kernel source refer to the patch man page.
[20:28] <ogasawara_> Typically upstream kernel patches can be applied by running the following from the top level directory of the Ubuntu kernel source:
[20:29] <ogasawara_> patch -p1 < [patch.file]
[20:29] <ogasawara_> Then just build the kernel like we walked through above and then test if your bug is fixed.
[20:29] <ogasawara_> You can then open a Launchpad bug report against the "linux" source package which is the source package name for the Ubuntu kernel.
[20:30] <ogasawara_> Make the Title informative but you may also want to preface it with something like [Resolved Upstream].
[20:30] <ogasawara_> In the bug report include a description of the bug you are experiencing.
[20:30] <ogasawara_> Then include the upstream git commit id and description.
[20:30] <ogasawara_> Also if you were able to, be sure to comment that you've applied the upstream patch the Ubuntu kernel and can verify it does resolve the issue you are seeing.
[20:31] <ogasawara_> If you feel the bug is urgent (and please be subjective about this) feel free to then ping me in #ubuntu-bugs or #ubuntu-kernel and I'll try to help get your bug on the radar of the kernel team.
[20:31] <ogasawara_> Otherwise, I regularly go through new kernel bug reports and will likely see it then.
[20:32] <ogasawara_> Now what happens if you know the issue is resolved in the upstream kernel and not in the Ubuntu kernel but you don't know the exact patch which resolved it.
[20:32] <ogasawara_> How do you go about finding the patch?
[20:32] <ogasawara_> you could leverage git bisect to help you narrow down the exact patch.  Refer to:
[20:32] <ogasawara_> http://www.kernel.org/doc/local/git-quick.html#bisect
[20:32] <ogasawara_> The only tricky thing is that you will need to reverse the meanings of "good" and "bad" when doing the bisect.
[20:33] <ogasawara_> This is because git bisect assumes that you are searching for the patch that causes the bug not the one that fixes it.
 QUESTION: I see the word SAUCE a lot in ubuntu changelogs; I assume it means a patch not applied upstream. is it anyone's duty to see that it makes it upstream?
[20:34] <ogasawara_> pwnguin: correct, SAUCE patches are not yet pushed upstream
[20:34] <ogasawara_> pwnguin: however, the kernel team actively submits patches back upstream
[20:35] <ogasawara_> I'd also like to take a moment here to quickly discuss reporting Ubuntu kernel bugs in Launchpad.
[20:35] <ogasawara_> As you can imagine, the Ubuntu kernel receives a rather high volume of bug reports.
[20:35] <ogasawara_> To help streamline the bug reporting process and make the kernel team's life a little easier there are a few things bug reporters can do to help improve reporting bugs:
[20:36] <ogasawara_> 1) Ubuntu kernel bug reports should be filed against the "linux" package.  Beginning with Hardy Heron 8.04 the Ubuntu kernel source naming convention changed from linux-source-2.6.xx to just linux.
[20:36] <ogasawara_> 2) Make bug report Titles descriptive - not just "My sound doesn't work" or "Suspend is Broken".
[20:36] <ogasawara_> 3) Make sure bug reports target one specific issue against a specific set of hardware.  Many times bugs are specific to the hardware used so even though the symptom may be the same, for ex. failure to Suspend, it really should be separate bug reports.  Remember we can easily mark bugs as duplicates later on if necessary.
[20:37] <ogasawara_> 4) As a general rule of thumb, kernel bug reports should at a minimum include the following:
[20:37] <ogasawara_>  * cat /proc/version_signature > version.log
[20:37] <ogasawara_>  * dmesg > dmesg.log
[20:37] <ogasawara_>  * sudo lspci -vvnn > lspci-vvnn.log
[20:37] <ogasawara_> For more information regarding the kernel team bug policy, refer to:
[20:37] <ogasawara_> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/KernelTeamBugPolicies
[20:38] <ogasawara_> That's pretty much all that I wanted to cover here today.
[20:38] <ogasawara_> Are there any other questions people have?
 Question: Free software is fun, i want to help, i want your advice about how can i contribute and learn the technology [i'm a computer engineer] while that is not consuming allot of time ?
[20:40] <ogasawara_> so not entirely related to our topic but . . .
[20:41] <ogasawara_> Ramy:  if there is a specific area you'd like to become involved in there are usually wikis/mailing lists you can join begin learning about the community you'd want to become involved in
[20:42] <ogasawara_> Ramy:  they usually can give you specific advice on how to jump in
[20:42] <ogasawara_> Ramy:  specifically for the kernel - http://kernelnewbies.org/ is a good place to start
 QUESTION: I just completed a git clone from kernel.org, and find that a patch marked SAUCE for hardy is not in upstream, and given my interaction with upstream, seems unlikely that they'd accept the patch as is. Does ubuntu carry patches forward, or will i need to follow up on intrepid in the case that an acceptable fix upstream isn't found quickly?
[20:43] <ogasawara_> pwnguin: patches that do not make it upstream will usually be carried forward from release to release
 QUESTION: (not really on topic but ...) how to get startet with kernel development?
[20:44] <ogasawara_> Flyser: I'd look at the kernel newbies link I posted above
[20:45] <ogasawara_> mnemo> QUESTION: there is many bugs so understanding which ones to focus on is important... how does the ubuntu kernel team figure out what soundcards/networkcards/graphicscards etc work or not work?
[20:45] <ogasawara_> mnemo: many of the developers on the kernel team have access to hardware they can test against, but that is hardly a good coverage of all hardware
[20:46] <ogasawara_> mnemo: that's where the help of the ubuntu community is greatly appreciated - testing and reporting bugs
 QUESTION: how do you determine if a hardware problem is actually a kernel issue and not a failure in another layer?
[20:47] <ogasawara_> maco:  the easiest way to test if it's actually a kernel issue is to try to eliminate the upper layers
[20:48] <ogasawara_> maco:  for example, a bug may either be in usplash or the kernel - try booting with the 'quiet' and 'splash' options removed
 QUESTION: Suppose two soundcards dont work, how do you decide which one to work on? Is there a stats page somewhere that says 10k people have card1 and 20k people have card2 etc... I know there is this "hardware testing" program which submits info somewhere but i'm not sure where it ends up exactly?
[20:50] <ogasawara_> mnemo: good question - usually a few things are taken into consideration here. . .
[20:51] <ogasawara_> mnemo:  I don't believe there is an official stats page documenting #people who have card1 vs. card2.  However, we can use launchpad to help provide some statistics.
[20:52] <ogasawara_> mnemo:  we can take a look at the # of duplicates say bug report about card1 has vs card2
[20:52] <ogasawara_> mnemo: we can also take a look at the # of subscribers to each bug report (theoretically the more subscribers the more people are interested in the bug)
[20:53] <ogasawara_> mnemo: and it also may depend if one of our kernel devs has access too one of the cards or not to test
 QUESTION: if its not something that shows up during boot, if it's something during normal usage, what do you eliminate? hal?  And what do you do to test once the upper layers are gone?
[20:54] <ogasawara_> maco:  that will typically depend on the symptoms you are seeing
[20:55] <ogasawara_> maco:  looking at the logs will hopefully provide any error messages or clues
 QUESTION: is there an ubuntu git repository of the kernel?
[20:56] <ogasawara_> TankEnMate: http://kernel.ubuntu.com/git
[20:56] <ogasawara_> ok, we're just about out of time.  anything else?
[20:57] <ogasawara_> Ok, thanks everyone.  Enjoy the rest of the week!
[20:59] <nixternal> OK, if you are here for the Kubuntu talk, can I get a big 'K' in #ubuntu-classroom-chat ?!?!
[21:01] <nixternal> alrighty, welcome to the train wreck called 'Kubuntu Development by Richard Johnson'
[21:01] <nixternal> a little introduction shall we...
[21:02] <nixternal> Hey everyone, my name is Richard Johnson and I am a Kubuntu developer.
[21:02] <nixternal> I am here to talk to you all about Kubuntu development.
[21:02] <nixternal> Here is a brief summary of what I am about to cover:
[21:02] <nixternal>  * A little about myself
[21:02] <nixternal>  * A little about Kubuntu
[21:02] <nixternal>  * A breakdown of the various development roles in the Kubuntu community
[21:03] <nixternal> I ask that everyone place their trays in the upright position, ensure your seatbelts are fastened, and hold on!
[21:03] <nixternal> ....
[21:03] <nixternal> [21:03] <nixternal>  * Free software developer and advocate since 1994
[21:03] <nixternal>  * Kubuntu developer and documentation writer since 2005
[21:03] <nixternal>  * KDE developer and documentation writer since 2005, user since 1996
[21:03] <nixternal>  * Debian Maintainer for a couple of packages, KDE based of course
[21:03] <nixternal>  * Co-Author of the Official Ubuntu Book (Edubuntu chapter - huh?)
[21:03] <nixternal>  * Go by nixternal on every communication protocol imaginable
[21:03] <nixternal>  * Email me at nixternal@kubuntu.org
[21:04] <nixternal> ....
[21:04] <nixternal> What is this Kubuntu thing everyone in the world should be using?
[21:04] <nixternal> [21:04] <nixternal>  * Official project of the Ubuntu GNU/Linux distribution
[21:04] <nixternal>  * We use the same exact base system as Ubuntu, we just use KDE instead
[21:04] <nixternal>  * It is pronounced koo-BOON-too
[21:04] <nixternal>  * First released in 2005 with the Hoary Hedgehog (5.04) version
[21:04] <nixternal>  * http://www.kdedevelopers.org/node/591 - The post that started it all, by some guy named Jonathan Riddell
[21:05] <nixternal> Riddell: say hello to everyone!
[21:05] <nixternal> he must be drinking his Irn Bru :)
[21:06] <nixternal> .....
[21:06] <nixternal> [21:06] <nixternal>  * One of the top KDE based GNU/Linux distributions available
[21:06] <nixternal>  * Still a small, yet tight-knit community of highly dedicated and experienced developers
[21:06] <nixternal>  * Both a KDE 3 and a KDE 4 Remix version available
[21:06] <nixternal>  * In numerous large scaled environments (Canary Islands, French Parliament, and others)
[21:07] <nixternal>  * A tad bit better than yesterday, only to be made better with YOUR help
[21:07] <nixternal> .....
[21:07] <nixternal> Like jono said earlier in his community talk, IT IS ALL ABOUT YOU! THE COMMUNITY!
[21:08] <nixternal> .....
[21:08] <nixternal> = Development Roles =
[21:08] <nixternal> There are many roles available for you to get involved in, no matter your experience level we have a job for you!
[21:08] <nixternal> I will break down the jobs or roles that I feel are in order starting with the easiest all the way to the hardest.
[21:09] <nixternal> Feel free to communicate with developers by utilizing our mailing list - https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/kubuntu-devel (Subscription based - low traffic).
[21:09] <nixternal> Note that this list is NOT for user support, for support please see the list information provided in the upcoming section on user support.
[21:09] <nixternal> .....
[21:10] <nixternal> The roles I will break down briefly cover: Advocacy, Support, Bug Triage, Documentation, Packaging, and Coding
[21:10] <nixternal> .....
[21:10] <nixternal> [21:11] <nixternal> Advocacy is nothing more than a fancier, and better sounding word for marketing.
[21:11] <nixternal> I am willing to bet a couple of you just went, "How in the heck is advocating Kubuntu related to development?"
[21:11] <nixternal> Yes, advocacy helps in the development of Kubuntu, and by you advocating, you are therefore helping to develop Kubuntu.
[21:12] <nixternal> This gets Kubuntu in the hands of other people who will use the system and typically report back any issues or compliments to the developers.
[21:12] <nixternal> How can you advocate?
[21:12] <nixternal>  * Get with one of your LoCo teams (Nick Ali will hold a LoCo Teams talk at 19:00 UTC this Saturday, May 3, 2008 during this OpenWeek)
[21:12] <nixternal>  * Get with one of your local Linux Users Groups (LUG)
[21:12] <nixternal>  * Talk about it face-to-face with friends, family, colleagues, and strangers in the dark (careful using Kubuntu as a pickup line, doesn't get you to far!)
[21:13] <nixternal> .....
[21:13] <nixternal> If you don't believe me about using Kubuntu as a pick-up line, eddieftw can tell you all about it, he has been smacked numerous times for trying!
[21:13] <nixternal> .....
[21:14]  * Riddell finds that international freedom fighter works well 
[21:14] <nixternal> I will have to remember that!
[21:14] <nixternal> .....
[21:14] <nixternal> [21:15] <nixternal> How can user support be considered a development role?
[21:15] <nixternal>  * You develop a sense of pride when helping others
[21:15] <nixternal>  * You develop respect not only for the OS, but also for the users, the developers, and yourself
[21:15] <nixternal>  * You develop a repoir within the Kubuntu community
[21:15] <nixternal>  * You help users, see things that could be made better by developers, and report that to the developers
[21:15] <nixternal> Having someone like YOU helping out the Kubuntu users helps out the development community tremendously.
[21:15] <nixternal> You free up the main developers time a bit and you also are provided the ability to take what you learn from common issues and communicate that effectively, allowing developers to make a better Kubuntu.
[21:16] <nixternal> Places you can provide user support:
[21:16] <nixternal>  * IRC - #kubuntu on Freenode (see https://help.ubuntu.com/community/InternetRelayChat)
[21:16] <nixternal>  * Ubuntu Forums - http://ubuntuforums.org
[21:16] <nixternal>  * Kubuntu Forums - http://www.kubuntuforums.net/
[21:16] <nixternal>  * Mailing List - https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/kubuntu-users (Subscription based - medium traffic)
[21:16] <nixternal>  * At your local LUG or LoCo events
[21:17] <nixternal> .....
[21:18] <nixternal> Everyone needs support and community love, and these are 2 very important areas in development
[21:18] <nixternal> Even this guy needs support and community love! -> http://www.flickr.com/photos/jonobacon/2438454269/
[21:18] <nixternal> .....
[21:19] <nixternal> OK, we have seen some bug lovin' today, and guess what?!?! I am going to talk some more about it :)
[21:19] <nixternal> .....
[21:19] <nixternal> [21:19] <nixternal> Bug triage is a huge part of the development process and comes in easy and difficult tasks.
[21:19] <nixternal> For the easy, simply going through bug reports and testing to see if you can reproduce the issue and then confirming the bug is a big part on ensuring it gets fixed.
[21:19] <nixternal> When bugs sit in the New or Incomplete status, their chances of getting looked at in depth are minimal compared to a report that has been Confirmed.
[21:20] <nixternal> For the difficult part, simply fix the bug by patching the software in question.
[21:20] <nixternal> For more information on bug triage stay tuned to more talks during this OpenWeek, such talks include:
[21:20] <nixternal>  * Reporting Bugs by Brian Murray, which happened just a couple of hours ago (17:00 UTC on Monday, April 28, 2008) and will also be held again at 17:00 UTC this Saturday, May 3, 2008
[21:20] <nixternal>  * Ubuntu Bugsquad + Triaging Bugs by Pedro Villavicencio which happened just prior to this talk (18:00 UTC on Monday, April 28, 2008) and will also be held again at 18:00 UTC this Saturday, May 3, 2008
[21:20] <nixternal>  * Bughelper - Making Bug Work Easier by Markus Korn at 15:00 UTC on Friday, May 2, 2008
[21:20] <nixternal> .....
[21:21] <nixternal> WAKE UP!!!
[21:21] <nixternal> still have a bit more to cover, then you can bombard me^Wus with questions
[21:21] <nixternal> .....
[21:22] <nixternal> AHHH! Here comes my favorite thing in the whole world....are you ready for the truth?
[21:22] <nixternal> YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!
[21:22] <nixternal> .....
[21:22] <nixternal> [21:22] <nixternal> \o/ YAY \o/
[21:22] <nixternal> Documentation is a very large task in the free software world and it is no different here in Kubuntu.
[21:23] <nixternal> As it stands, there are about 3 or 4 of us who work on the Kubuntu documentation, with myself and Jonathan Jesse typically available most of the time.
[21:23] <nixternal> With our future with KDE 4, ALL of our documentation needs to be rewritten in order to suite it. Currently all of our documentation is KDE 3 based.
[21:24] <nixternal> We house our documentation in Bazaar which a revision control system. Right now our goal will be with Intrepid documentation.
[21:24] <nixternal> For further information on documentation please see either of the following:
[21:24] <nixternal>  * Ubuntu Documentation Project by me at 21:00 UTC this Friday, May 2, 2008
[21:24] <nixternal>  * Ubuntu Documentation Project wiki - https://wiki.kubuntu.org/DocumentationTeam
[21:24] <nixternal>  * Ubuntu Documentation Project mailing list - https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-doc (Subscription based - low traffic)
[21:24] <nixternal>  * IRC - #ubuntu-doc on Freenode (see https://help.ubuntu.com/community/InternetRelayChat)
[21:24] <nixternal>  * Asks questions at the end of this talk, message me at a later time on IRC, or email me at nixternal@kubuntu.org with your questions
[21:25] <nixternal> .....
[21:26] <nixternal> Now comes the really fun stuff! I ask that you know make sure that your parachutes are ready to go!
[21:26] <nixternal> .....
[21:26] <nixternal> sudo apt-get install the_hard_stuff
[21:26] <nixternal> .....
[21:27] <nixternal> Actually, that was a lie, the last 2 topics are pretty easy to learn, and a total blast....
[21:27] <nixternal>  
[21:27] <nixternal> [21:27] <nixternal> What exactly is packaging?
[21:28] <nixternal> I will tell you what it isn't...It isn't that sharp plastiK stuff you try to cut away to get at your new geeky toy!
[21:28] <nixternal>  
[21:28] <nixternal> If you used Adept, Synaptic, apt-get, or aptitude to install a piece of our free software, then what you have done is downloaded a package which was extracted into the proper locations within your system, ensuring at the same time that any of that applications dependencies were also installed.
[21:28] <nixternal>  
[21:28] <nixternal> uncross your eyes, and lets rock!
[21:28] <nixternal>  
[21:28] <nixternal> What happens is you have a select group of developers who spend their PERSONAL TIME creating, editing, and maintaining Debian based packages so you can download and install them.
[21:29] <nixternal>  
[21:30] <nixternal> The reason behind PERSONAL TIME being in caps wasn't to yell at you...it was to let everyone know that will read this here and in the log files, to breathe before tearing into community members because your favorite package might be broken...bare with us, and we shall fix it for ya!
[21:30] <nixternal> of course, you could always fix it too, especially seeing as this is the packaging section :)
[21:30] <nixternal>  
[21:30] <nixternal> What should you know if you are thinking about packaging? Requirements include:
[21:31] <nixternal>  * Familiarity with the command line
[21:31] <nixternal>  * Ability to download, extract, configure, build, and install a tarball (file.tar.gz and such)
[21:31] <nixternal>  * Familiarity with Debian based packaging scripts and utilities (pbuilder, dh_make, dh_install, and more)
[21:31] <nixternal>  
[21:31] <nixternal> ls, cd, mv, mkdir, rm, man, info, dget, wget, and a few more....easy stuff!
[21:32] <nixternal> wget http://foo.com/bar.tar.gz && tar -xf bar.tar.gz
[21:32] <nixternal> forgot about tar in my first list of cli commands, oops
[21:33] <nixternal> dh_make, debdiff, lintian, pbuilder, dh_install, debuild, dput, and more....
[21:33] <nixternal> still not overly difficult!
[21:33] <nixternal>  
[21:33] <nixternal> More information on packaging can be located at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MOTU. Also don't forget to catch the packaging related talks during this OpenWeek, such as:
[21:33] <nixternal>  * QA: Using piuparts to test your packages by Lars Wirzenius which was earlier today at 16:00 UTC. Don't worry if you missed it, the logs will be available shortly for each session of this OpenWeek
[21:33] <nixternal>  * Packaging 101 - Session 1 by Daniel Holbach at 15:00 UTC, tomorrow, Tuesday, April 29, 2008
[21:33] <nixternal>  * Packaging 101 - Session 2 by Daniel Holbach at 16:00 UTC, tomorrow, Tuesday, April 29, 2008
[21:33] <nixternal>  * Merging Packages 101 by Nicolas Valcárcel at 18:00 UTC, tomorrow, Tuesday, April 29, 2008
[21:33] <nixternal>  * Python Packaging by Emilio Pozuelo Monfort at 21:00 UTC on Thursday, May 1, 2008
[21:33] <nixternal>  * And if you are already a packager, check out Running a Packaging Jam by Rick Harding at 19:00 UTC on Friday, May 2, 2008
[21:33] <nixternal> .....
[21:34] <nixternal> OK hackers! Leave the Gibson alone and pay attention now!
[21:34] <nixternal> .....
[21:34] <nixternal> [21:34] <nixternal> ahhhh ya! the fun stuff! the stuff that will make your dating life totally disappear!
[21:34] <nixternal>  
[21:35] <nixternal> Are you an elite coding ninja?
[21:35] <nixternal> A code monkey?
[21:35] <nixternal> A CS student just learning how to code?
[21:35] <nixternal>  
[21:35] <nixternal> don't take code monkey in the negative way!
[21:35] <nixternal>  
[21:35] <nixternal> Well we can make some room for you! What type of coding jobs are available at this time are still up in the air until after the Ubuntu Developer's Summit next month.
[21:35] <nixternal>  
[21:35] <nixternal> Once the projects are hammered out, I am fairly certain there will be coding projects available for various types of coders.
[21:36] <nixternal> C++ and Python are our 2 main languages here at Kubuntu and if you have any experience we should have something for you.
[21:36] <nixternal>  
[21:36] <nixternal> s/should/WILL! as soon as UDS hits us in a few weeks :)
[21:36] <nixternal>  
[21:36] <nixternal> Do you have a project in mind?
[21:37] <nixternal> If so, then come to one of our regularly scheduled developer meetings and place your ideas on the agenda for that meeting.
[21:37] <nixternal> https://wiki.kubuntu.org/Kubuntu/Meetings  -- Keep an eye on this page or http://fridge.ubuntu.com to see when our next meeting will be
[21:37] <nixternal> Who knows, maybe you can twist some arms to get your idea developed and included in the next release, and future releases, of Kubuntu.
[21:37] <nixternal>  
[21:38] <nixternal> = Conclusion =
[21:38] <nixternal> YES! I KNOW YOU ALL JUST SAID "THANK GOD IT IS FINALLY OVER!!!!"
[21:38] <nixternal> I would like to thank each and every one of you for attending this meeting.
[21:38] <nixternal> I hope it wasn't to boring for you and that you are now ready to explode with questions, comments, and ideas.
[21:38] <nixternal> I ask that you provide your question, comments, or ideas in accordance to the rules set forth in the discussion channel for the OpenWeek talks.
[21:39] <nixternal> Thanks again and if you have any questions, please do not hesitate to ask, and comments and ideas can be fired my way as well.
[21:39] <nixternal> COMMUNITY!
[21:39] <nixternal> COMMUNITY!
[21:39] <nixternal> COMMUNITY!
[21:39] <nixternal> there you go Mike, sorry about that
[21:39] <nosrednaekim> ok... i'll be your question coordinator... first up is...
[21:39] <nixternal> drum roll please!
 QUESTION: Is it true that Kubuntu is almost exclusively made by Riddell ?
[21:39]  * nosrednaekim steps over to his drum set
[21:40] <nixternal> ligemeget: yes, Riddell is a robot who is fed plenty of grease and electricity, the rest of us just make sure Riddell's batteries don't go dead!
[21:40] <nixternal> ligemeget: in all actuality
[21:40] <nosrednaekim> and we are working on a riddell clone
[21:40] <nixternal> Riddell: is our fearless leader who does a ton of work, but we have numerous excellent contributors
 QUESTION: Why Kubuntu team decided to go with building a full distribution instead of keeping it as Ubuntu package and are there any plans to go with the same direction just like Edubuntu ?  and if not then why especially if it's technical reason
[21:41] <nixternal> sudo apt-get install riddell
[21:41] <nosrednaekim> (if you were done)
[21:41] <nosrednaekim> yea... you were :P
[21:42] <nixternal> Syntux: Kubuntu is a full distro and it is an Ubuntu package (kubuntu-desktop)
[21:42] <nixternal> the main reason, why should people who want to use KDE have to install Gnome first?
[21:42] <nixternal> this way here, gearheads can get straight to the KDE love that they want from the first boot
[21:43] <nixternal> as for going in the Edubuntu direction, not for Kubuntu
[21:43] <nixternal> the reason is because people don't want Gnome and want KDE only, so Kubuntu provides them with what they want
[21:44] <nosrednaekim>  <ligemeget> QUESTION: Where the heck in the Kubuntu Documentation located and who do we need to contact if we want to participate in rewriting the whole thing?
[21:44] <nixternal> the reasoning behind Edubuntu also factored in their much smaller developer pool
[21:45] <nixternal> ligemeget: Kubuntu docs are located on the system - in Konqueror do help:/kubuntu - In KHelpCenter select the Kubuntu docs up top
[21:45] <nixternal> ligemeget: Ubuntu Documentation mailing list is the best contact point and I don't have the URL handy right now, get with me after this and I will give you more info
[21:46] <nosrednaekim>  <Odd-rationale> QUESTION: Wasn't kubuntu.org going to get a make over? What happened?
[21:46] <nixternal> Odd-rationale: it is still being tweaked....we were hoping to have it finished on release day...hopefully in the next week or so...
[21:46] <nosrednaekim>  QUESTION: How do you plan to get rid of the whole 'If you want KDE, go get OpenSUSE - Kubuntu is a second rank citizen' myth?
[21:47] <nosrednaekim> sorry, that was from ligemeget
[21:47] <nixternal> YES! I KNEW IT WAS COMING!
[21:47] <nixternal> I have been working on Kubuntu now for almost 3 years and I never got that 2nd class citizen feeling
[21:47] <nixternal> I will closely with a lot of the Gnome side and we all party like rockstars no matter our distro
[21:47] <nixternal> the Go Get openSUSE one I haven't heard a bunch of
[21:48] <nixternal> I have heard get "PC Linux OS"
[21:48] <nixternal> look, we are reaching our hands out to the community
[21:48] <nixternal> we need YOU, and all of YOU to help us become #1
[21:48] <nixternal> it is sad and hurtful seeing people calling my distro of choice a 2nd class citizen
[21:49] <nixternal> and I know it bothers others who put a lot of blood, sweat, and tears into their volunteer work
 QUESTION: where can we find those coding projects you talking about, specially for a CS student!
[21:49] <nixternal> nobody is perfect, but we being as small as we are work hard trying to get as close to perfection as possible
[21:50] <nixternal> RoAkSoAx: chill out in #kubuntu-devel, keep on eye on the kubuntu-devel mailing list, and as soon as UDS is over with, we will have a much better idea of what we will have available
 QUESTION: can we hear some more about developers meetings? When/where/are non-developers invited, etc?
[21:50] <nixternal> oh, and voice up that you really want to get into development work too
[21:51] <nixternal> reldruh: everyone is invited!
[21:51] <nixternal> our meetings are always in #ubuntu-meeting here on Freenode
[21:51] <nixternal> we will probably hold 1 more before UDS so keep an eye on the kubuntu-devel mailing list
[21:51] <nosrednaekim>  <daskrEEch> QUESTION: Can we play with KDE 4.1 packages?
[21:51] <nixternal> daskrEEch: go to openSUSE
[21:51] <nixternal> ;p
[21:52] <nixternal> daskrEEch: as soon as you package them! Riddell even heard you say that you were going to work on that
[21:52] <nixternal> should have known you would have asked that one :)
[21:52] <nosrednaekim>  <Odd-rationale> QUESTION: Do you think there is any likelyhood of KDE following timed-based releases in sync with Ubuntu?
[21:52] <nixternal> as a matter of fact, we have 4.1 alpha1 release tarballs...sounds like a project to me for you daskrEEch
[21:53] <nixternal> Odd-rationale: honestly, I hope not...why? why should KDE follow Ubuntu? w/o Gnome or KDE, Ubuntu and Kubuntu are nothing, we should try and follow them like other distros do...Ubuntu/Kubuntu isn't the law of the land
[21:53] <nixternal> now would I like to see better management of that type of thing, of course, it would totally rock
[21:54] <nixternal> typically, after release, when KDE releases something new, we work hard to make it available for everyone of our prior releases that are supported
 QUESTION: which parts of kubuntu are programmed in python?
[21:56] <nixternal> knoppix: some of our smaller apps/applets...the new Printer Config that Riddell rocked out, Martin's GDebi-KDE app, Ubiquity the graphical installer
[21:56] <nixternal> I am reaching here trying to remember others
[21:56] <nosrednaekim> and and.......
[21:56] <nixternal> I know there are others
[21:56] <nixternal> nosrednaekim: do you know anymore that I am missing?
[21:56] <nosrednaekim> My Desktop-effect-kde app :)
[21:56] <nixternal> oh ya :p
[21:56] <nosrednaekim> and the poermanager
[21:56] <nosrednaekim> *powermanager
[21:56] <nixternal> oh ya, Guidance
[21:57] <nosrednaekim> oh... the mountconfig and wine managers as well
[21:57] <nixternal> whoa, forgot about that one, sorry ScottK and others who broke their backs these past few weeks :)
[21:57] <nixternal> jeesh, we have quite a bit
[21:57] <nosrednaekim> and the displayconfig
[21:57] <Riddell> hwdb, apport, upgrade tool
[21:57] <nixternal> and more if you want!
[21:57] <nixternal> rock on!
[21:57] <nixternal> one more?
[21:58] <Riddell> oem-config, language-selector
[21:58] <nixternal> time is running out....if there are more questions, head on over to #kubuntu-devel and we would be glad to answer any more that you may have
[21:58] <nosrednaekim> no more questions I don't think
[21:58] <nixternal> hahahaha, Riddell is in Python mode!
[21:58] <nixternal> rock on...
[21:58] <nixternal> THANKS EVERYONE! YOU ALL ROCK!
[21:58] <nixternal> great questions too!
[21:58] <nosrednaekim> oh... and if you are interested in doing user support, attend my session on saturday on hardware debugging...
[21:59] <nixternal> rock on nosrednaekim !
[21:59] <nixternal> wow, there goes the KDE crowd!
[21:59] <nixternal> hehe
[22:04] <Amaranth> Are the next people here? Sorry, I can't remember you nicks. :)
[22:07] <james_w> Hi all.
[22:07] <james_w> My name is James Westby, and I'm going to talk about using Bazaar for packaging.
[22:08] <james_w> Sorry to all the Kubuntu fans, it seems like there were loads more questions, hopefully the discussion is continuing elsewhere.
[22:09] <james_w> So, first of all, what is Bazaar? Some people may not know.
[22:09] <james_w> Bazaar is a modern, easy to use, version control system. You can find out more at http://bazaar-vcs.org/
[22:10] <james_w> Why would we want to use Version control for packaging?
[22:10] <james_w> Firstly, this allows us to keep a finer-grained record of the changes that we made when when we were preparing a new version.
[22:11] <james_w> Secondly, it allows us to collaborate with other people much more efficiently, as it makes merging their changes easier.
 QUESTION: Is bazaar better than subversion?
[22:12] <james_w> whitenexx: Bazaar is what is known as a "distributed" version control system, which means that branching is really easy
[22:13] <james_w> that means that you can make a branch for each new feature, allowing you to commit when a feature is not complete, which makes development more reliable.
[22:13] <james_w> also, as it is distributed you don't need to be in a special blessed group of people with access to commit
[22:14] <james_w> you can use all the features of the version control system on your own, and then send your changes to be committed to the official branch when you are ready.
[22:14] <james_w> the last advantage I'll mention is that you have all the history locally, so you can commit when you have no Internet access.
[22:15] <james_w> there's loads more good things, if you want to find out more you can join #bzr and talk about it there.
[22:16] <james_w> back to packaging, I explained a couple of benefits for doing this, let's look at what you actually do.
[22:16] <james_w> The first step is to version the Ubuntu/Debian packaging information so that changes to that are recorded, so you can discover when a dependency was added, or something like that.
[22:18] <james_w> You can move beyond this, and also use a branch of the upstream code, which makes it easier to do things like "cherry-pick" a change from upstream for a stable release.
 QUESTION: Why should I bother with bzr?  Why can't Ubuntu use svn or git like everyone else does?
[22:19] <james_w> ScottK: It's possible to use another system, such as svn or bzr, to version control your packaging, I'll explain the reason that I am focusing on bzr in a little while.
[22:20] <james_w> I've outlined some advantages of bzr to svn above.
[22:21] <james_w> bzr and git are much more similar, however, I think that bzr has a much more friendly interface, and should be easier to use.
[22:23] <james_w> So, lets have a look at a sample package that uses bzr. You can view it at https://code.edge.launchpad.net/~james-w/+junk/ssss
[22:23] <james_w> you can use "bzr branch http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~james-w/+junk/ssss" to get the code locally if you like.
[22:24] <james_w> http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~james-w/+junk/ssss/files is the web viewer if you prefer that
[22:27] <james_w> So, you can now use bzr to look at the history, and then work on new versions of the package.
[22:27] <james_w> So, how to build a package using bzr?
[22:28] <james_w> "debuild" tool will work as normal, however you would end up with the .bzr directory in the package, which is not what we want.
[22:28] <james_w> You can get around this by using "debuild -i"
[22:29] <james_w> However, there is another way. I wrote a tool called "bzr-builddeb" that will export the package, and then call debuild for you.
[22:29] <james_w> This may seem like overhead at this point, but bzr-builddeb provides other features as wel.
[22:31] <james_w> If you want to try it out then "apt-get install bzr-builddeb" and try running
[22:31] <james_w> bzr builddeb
[22:31] <james_w> in the code that you grabbed earlier
[22:31] <james_w> (there is a pre-defined alias of "bd" for this, so "bzr bd" works as well, and is quicker to type)
 QUESTION: where i can see manual to build deb packeges with bzr-builddeb
[22:32] <james_w> xxxYURAxxx: thanks for asking
[22:32] <james_w> http://jameswestby.net/bzr/builddeb/user_manual/ is the user manual
[22:32] <james_w> it's not complete, but it describes some things quite well.
[22:34] <james_w> bzr-builddeb provides you with a number of ways of working, which can be useful in certain circumstances, but the default is probably the one that you want.
[22:35] <james_w> for instance, it allows you to just version the debian/ directory, and then combines this with the upstream code when building. debuild can't do this, so that's one case where bzr-builddeb is worth having as well as that tool.
[22:36] <james_w> One feature that version control of your packages can help a lot with is importing new versions of the package, or new upstream versions.
[22:37] <james_w> The fact that history is recorded means that the merge that happens here can be much more intelligent and help you out a lot in some cases.
[22:38] <james_w> There are two bzr commands provided by the bzr-builddeb package to do this. The first is ""bzr import-dsc", the second is "bzr merge-upstream"
[22:40] <james_w> so, if we are packaging using bzr in Ubuntu, and Debian isn't using version control for the package, we can import a new upload from Debian using the "import-dsc" command.
[22:40] <james_w> you would be in the branch that you have, and you would run "bzr import-dsc foo_1.2.3-4.dsc"
[22:41] <james_w> this should also work for http:// urls as well, so you can import directly from ftp.debian.org without downloading it if you like.
[22:42] <james_w> now, Ubuntu already has a tool that does this, called merge-o-matic, or MoM for short.
[22:43] <james_w> this actually uses version control ideas to do the work, and so it is very similar.
[22:43] <james_w> however, bzr-builddeb allows you to do it yourself, and for other packages than what merge-o-matic provides.
[22:45] <james_w> The other command is merge-upstream, this means that when you see a new upstream release that you want to package you can run the command with the new upstream tarball, and then update the changelog and build.
[22:45] <james_w> If you are happy you can just commit and upload.
[22:48] <james_w> Apologies for not showing you these features in more detail, or talking you through the different modes, I was worried there wouldn't be time if I tried to do that.
[22:49] <james_w> If you are interested I would be happy to talk to you at any other time.
[22:49] <james_w> Does anyone have any more questions now before we wrap up?
[22:51] <jcastro> unless there are more questions I guess we can wrap up?
[22:52] <jcastro> Ok then ... tomorrow at 1500 UTC we start up again
[22:52] <jcastro> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuOpenWeek/
[22:52] <jcastro> there's the schedule
[22:52] <james_w> thanks everyone
[22:52] <jcastro> if you have any comments on how to improve openweek, please feel free to mail me at jorge (at) ubuntu.com
[22:52] <james_w> Enjoy the rest of open week
[22:52] <jcastro> thanks james_w!
[22:52] <Amaranth> Yay! Packaging with dholbach, the man himself
[22:53] <jcastro> Please feel free to hang out in -chat and discuss topics that we went over today, etc.
[22:53] <jcastro> nothing beats peer interaction!
[22:56] <afernandez> hi jcastro do you write in spanish ?
[22:57] <jcastro> no I do not. I know how to order a beer, that's about it
[22:57] <afernandez> xD
[22:58] <jcastro> well, we had over 300 people simultaneously throughout today's sessions, woo hoo!
[22:58] <nixternal> uno mas!
[22:59] <nixternal> mas tequila!
[22:59] <greg-g> uno mas? tres mas!
[22:59] <nixternal> hehe, triple fistin'
[22:59] <greg-g> one at the bar, two to roll with
[23:00] <armanforum> QUESTION: can i import my windows live mail storage into evolution or thunderbird? or any other mail software?
[23:01] <jcastro> I am pretty sure tbird comes with converters for that
[23:02] <JohnSGruber> jcastro: So all along you were practicing your Spanish Saturday night?
[23:03] <jcastro> JohnSGruber: nope, I found that I don't need spanish in michigan that much, heh
[23:06] <eduardgrebe> JohnSGruber, you're not the daringfireball John Gruber, are you?
[23:07] <JohnSGruber> No. I'm the opposite of daring. I've used macs before but that's certainly not me.
[23:09] <eduardgrebe> good. i've seldom come across a greater apologist for Apple, no matter what they do
[23:19] <radoslav> q