[03:00] <barry> #startmeeting
[03:00] <thumper> hi
[03:01]  * thumper just remembered
[03:01] <thumper> mwhudson just said he was lunching, so he may be around
[03:01] <barry> hmm.  seems like mootbot is dead.  guess we'll have to kick this oldschool
[03:01] <thumper> jml won't be with us today
[03:01] <barry> ok
[03:01] <barry> who else is here today?
[03:01] <thumper> spiv, jamesh: ping
[03:01] <thumper> barry: it'll be quick if just us
[03:02] <barry> indeed!  fine with me :)
[03:02] <barry> shall we wait a minute to see if anybody else shows up?
[03:02] <thumper> nah, lets go
[03:02] <barry> rock on
[03:02] <barry> next meeting?
[03:03] <thumper> now + 1 week
[03:03] <barry> works for me
[03:03] <thumper> next week I'll have mwhudson and jml in the same room as me
[03:03] <barry> sprinting?
[03:03] <thumper> yep
[03:03] <barry> cool, on code hosting?
[03:03] <thumper> with rockstar_ and abenley too
[03:03] <thumper> uh ha
[03:04] <barry> great!  where are you sprinting?
[03:04] <thumper> Dunedin, NZ
[03:04] <barry> oh, i bet that will be fun!
[03:04] <thumper> my town :-)
[03:04] <barry> :)
[03:04] <barry> cool... action items
[03:04] <barry>  * (continued) thumper to report on pending-reviews killer in LP
[03:04] <barry> :)
[03:04] <thumper> I did think about it
[03:04] <mwhudson> hi
[03:04] <thumper> but not yet written anything
[03:04] <thumper> on the plus side
[03:04] <barry> mwhudson: hi
[03:04] <thumper> we are making good progress on the review stuff
[03:05] <barry> very cool.  i'm looking forward to being able to do reviews in lp
[03:05] <mwhudson> sorry for being late
[03:05] <barry> there were two action items from ameu i think
[03:05] <barry> mwhudson: no problem
[03:06] <barry>  * barry drive to decision about multiline sequences
[03:06] <barry> i haven't written about that but i will before the ameu meeting
[03:06] <barry>  * we should all chip in and watch for lpreview plugin bugs
[03:06] <barry> i think that was a plea for all reviewers to help chip in to fix bugs in lpreviews
[03:06] <mwhudson> there was something about getting it added to sourcecode
[03:07] <barry> mwhudson: right, i don't know where that is, but i'll ask gmb on wednesday
[03:07] <barry> mwhudson: also, gmb's got this A/I:  * gmb to prod mwh again about the 800-line limit patch
[03:07] <mwhudson> i have this vague recollection of it failing because of a bzr bug, but it's very vauge
[03:07] <mwhudson> i don't think i've been prodded again
[03:07] <thumper> I don't want a hard limit enfoced by the plugin
[03:07] <thumper> that'd just annoy me
[03:08] <thumper> s/enfoced/enforced/
[03:08] <barry> thumper: there will definitely be an override
[03:08] <mwhudson> but yeah, what thumper said
[03:08] <barry> or maybe it'll just publicly shame you instead
[03:09] <barry> anyway.  i'm sure you and he can work that out :)
[03:09] <mwhudson> yeah
[03:09] <barry>  * Queue status
[03:09] <thumper> nice and pink
[03:10] <barry> i see jamesh still has our favorite at the #1 spot!
[03:10] <mwhudson> most of those branches are merged it seems
[03:10]  * barry forgot he's got to review allenap's branch
[03:10] <thumper> well, half
[03:10] <barry> yep.  good to see people taking the admonition to delete their reviewed branches to heart
[03:11] <barry> (he ways as an offender :)
[03:11] <barry> er, says
[03:11] <barry> any comments on the queue from you guys?
[03:12] <mwhudson> i think it's clear that when we do queue management in lp
[03:12] <mwhudson> we need to mark branches as merged automagically
[03:12] <thumper> mwhudson: my magic pqm bit will do that
[03:12] <thumper> mwhudson: but yes, agreed
[03:13] <barry> yes definitely
[03:13] <barry> we'll skip mentoring update
[03:14] <barry>  * Review process
[03:14] <barry>    * How to manage workload of reviewing (intellectronica, sinzui? gmb?)
[03:14] <barry> tho they're not here to defend themselves :)
[03:14] <mwhudson> move to australasia :)
[03:14] <Hobbsee> (mootbot probably won't be here anytime soon)
[03:14] <barry> Hobbsee: is mootbot moot?
[03:14] <Hobbsee> barry: something like that.
[03:14] <mwhudson> oh right, ubuntu irc drama
[03:15]  * barry was getting to like that little bot
[03:15] <barry> mwhudson: what that mean?
[03:15] <Hobbsee> mwhudson: yeah, that.
[03:15]  * thumper must have missed the drama
[03:15]  * barry too
[03:15] <Hobbsee> barry: things finally went kaboom.  ask me in #launchpad if you really want to know
[03:15] <mwhudson> uh, not sure what a good reference would be
[03:16] <mwhudson> there was a toy-throwing-out-of-pram incident
[03:16] <mwhudson> with the guy who runs/ran all the ubuntu bots
[03:16] <barry> prams are baby carriages right? :)
[03:16] <mwhudson> barry: yes
[03:16] <thumper> barry: right
[03:16] <barry> i think i get the picture!
[03:16] <barry> sigh
[03:16] <barry> anyway, moving on?
[03:17] <thumper> yeah
[03:17] <Hobbsee> barry: freenode decided to give trolls more rights than regular people, and allowed them to roam freely on the network, ignoring anything anyone else said.  oddly enough, people got sick of it.
[03:17] <Hobbsee> but yes, moving on.
[03:17] <barry> * comparing strings with `is` (stevea)
[03:17] <barry>    * overly broad `KeyError`s (stevea)
[03:18] <barry> these were two things stevea wanted me to bring up, though i'm sure y'all know about them
[03:18] <mwhudson> uh, comparing strings with is should be a shooting offense already
[03:18] <barry> he was reviewing a branch that had already been reviewed (for an rc i think) and noticed
[03:18] <barry> mwhudson: agreed!  i'm mildly surprised that got past a dev, but really suprised that got past a reviewer
[03:18] <thumper> barry: as in "foo is 'bob'" ?
[03:19] <barry> thumper: if foo is 'blah':
[03:19] <barry> yeah
[03:19] <thumper> barry: eww
[03:19] <thumper> ok, KeyError?
[03:19] <barry> so SteveA just wanted me to remind reviewers to catch those things :)
[03:19] <mwhudson> is there anything deep behind 'overly broad keyerror' ?
[03:19] <thumper> be specific, make a new exception thing?
[03:19] <barry> the keyerror one was a case where there was too much code in the try part
[03:20] <mwhudson> or is that "don't put too much code in ...
[03:20] <mwhudson> heh
[03:20] <barry> so that it wasn't clear which piece of code the keyerror was trying to catch
[03:20] <thumper> ok
[03:20] <barry> mwhudson: yep, the latter
[03:20] <mwhudson> k
[03:20] <barry> i.e. use a try/except/else or put the code after the try/except
[03:20] <barry> you guys get it
[03:21] <mwhudson> um
[03:21] <mwhudson> * How to manage workload of reviewing (intellectronica, sinzui? gmb?)
[03:21] <mwhudson> kind of got dropped
[03:21] <thumper> I guess I've sidestepped this
[03:21] <thumper> as it was brought up that team leads shouldn't do on-call reviewing
[03:22] <thumper> however I do still do reviews on request
[03:22] <thumper> and have been doing a number for abentley
[03:22] <thumper> and will do some for rockstar_
[03:22] <barry> mwhudson: i'm not sure exactly what intellectronica, et al wanted to say about that
[03:22] <mwhudson> fair enough
[03:22] <thumper> barry: I think it was that 20% seemed like a lot of time
[03:23] <barry> yeah.  in foundations we actually calculate you'll only spend 60% of your time actually coding per week
[03:23] <thumper> ha
[03:23] <thumper> if that high
[03:23] <barry> figuring a day for reviewing and a day for bullsh*t like email
[03:23] <barry> thumper: yeah, and team leads probably even less
[03:23]  * thumper smiles
[03:23]  * barry feels for flacoste
[03:24] <mwhudson> i think you can argue that reviewing is more important than your own coding tasks
[03:24] <thumper> yeah, I do
[03:24] <mwhudson> (there's more investment, and someone else is waiting on you)
[03:24] <thumper> also you learn by reviewing
[03:24] <barry> mwhudson: yep, definitely.  but it's human nature to feel like you're slacking on your other work too though
[03:24] <mwhudson> more realistic planning plz
[03:25] <thumper> barry: I understand that
[03:25] <thumper> part could be mitigated by having people realise the 60% thing more though
[03:25] <mwhudson> (this relates to the pqm/rc gripe thread)
[03:25] <thumper> so they don't expect to code 8hours a day
[03:25] <barry> mwhudson: we had an interesting experiment with planning poker for 1.2.4.  preliminary results indicate we under-estimate u/i work and over-estimate backend work
[03:25] <thumper> this does come back to the "heap of work" and "forced march" feel
[03:26] <barry> yep
[03:26] <thumper> barry: I agree with that
[03:26] <barry> we really need to find a way to avoid that
[03:26] <thumper> barry: I find that U/I work always takes ages
[03:26] <mwhudson> barry: interesting
[03:26] <thumper> barry: like the branch to redo project branches took about 4 days elapsed
[03:26] <barry> thumper: indeed, it's even worse if you have to grovel around in javascript
[03:27] <thumper> you think it is simple but then it is just a time sink
[03:27] <thumper> . o O (hmm.. two more pixels to the left I think..)
[03:27] <barry> thumper: in my experience, nothing's changed.  it was that way with u/i crap 20 years ago
[03:28] <mwhudson> i guess my summary is
[03:28] <thumper> ha, I realised the other day that I've had almost 20 years of professional programmign now :-(
[03:28] <thumper> and I still can't type
[03:28] <mwhudson> if you have too much 'real work' to do reviews, you have too much 'real work'
[03:28] <thumper> mwhudson: +1
[03:29] <barry> mwhudson: +1
[03:29] <mwhudson> i guess we need to make sure the reviewing is spread around fairly though
[03:29] <mwhudson> i guess you could gather some stats on that
[03:30] <thumper> we used to record number of hours a week doing reviews
[03:30] <thumper> how about we reinstate that somehow
[03:30] <barry> thumper: i still record that
[03:30] <thumper> ah, ok
[03:30] <mwhudson> i've always been rubbish at that
[03:30] <barry> but yeah, we don't collate that anymore.  otoh, after my ocr, i'm really unmotivated to do reviews (well, that aren't follow ons)
[03:32] <barry> any way, got anything else for me?
[03:32] <mwhudson> anyway, i guess we should see what the people who proposed the topic have to say
[03:32] <thumper> nothing from me
[03:32] <barry> mwhudson: yep, i'll summarize that after wednesday's meeting
[03:33] <barry> okay then...
[03:33] <barry> #endmeeting
[03:33] <barry> ha ha
[03:33] <barry> g'nite all!
[03:33] <mwhudson> bye & thanks
[03:34] <barry> thanks