/srv/irclogs.ubuntu.com/2008/04/29/#ubuntu-devel.txt

arpuhi all00:12
arpucan someone help me with this bug ? https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bug/22384300:12
arpui found out it have nothing to do with the xrdb error messages in .xsession-errors00:13
arpubut the bootchart shows me xrdb -> zombie00:13
arpuis this the right channel to ask ?00:14
=== shadowxp2 is now known as shadowxp
pwnguini wish open week would publish required readings for talks instead of just duplicating the wiki over IRC00:42
* lamont wonders what xivulon wanted01:10
jdonglamont: now you'll *never* know01:11
=== golddragon24_ is now known as golddragon24
ion_To ask your hand in marriage.01:11
jdonglamont: the inquisition will haunt you for the REST of your life01:11
lamontjdong: nah01:11
lamonthe didn't care enough to just ask the question, so... meh01:11
jdongdeep down you really do care. you are dying to know01:11
jdongand it will only become apparent in your mid-life crisis :)01:11
* jdong was told not to go into medical science for some reason :)01:12
ion_May I inquire whether I am allowed to ask whether it's okay to ask whether i can ask to ask a metaquestion?01:12
lamontjdong: I already sold my midlife-crisis car01:12
lamontion_: not without asking first.01:13
lamont:-)01:13
toresbeone of the more interesting bugs I've encountered when upgrading to feisty is that my left monitor has become intermittent01:13
lamontfeisty???01:13
wgrantWell, it's probably fixed in Gutsy or Hardy.01:13
lamontdear me, why?01:13
toresbeuh, sorry. Hardy!01:13
arpuno on an idea ?01:13
toresbeIt's 2AM, and I'm doing schoolwork. :)01:13
arpuor help to find the problem ?01:13
lamont<ion_> am I allowed to ask whether it's okay to ask whether i can ask to ask a metaquestion?01:13
toresbeWell, I'm on IRC, pretending to myself that I'm really doing schoolwork. It's complicated.01:14
lamonttoresbe: I know that issue far too well.01:14
toresbe:)01:14
lamontOTOH, it's 6PM here, and I'm about to head off to bed - exhausting afternoon01:14
toresbeafter upgrading, monitor 0 while using the evil unfree nVidia driver...01:14
jdongpfft bed at 6PM?01:14
lamontjdong: I roll out of bed at 5AM weekdays01:14
lamontand this afternoon I kinda played on an antenna tower for a while..01:15
jdonglamont: that's typically when I roll into bed to prepare for 9AM classes :)01:15
lamonttotal of ~ 200 feet of vertical climb, up and down01:15
lamontmax height above ground?  40 feet01:15
lamontlots of trips01:15
lamontoh, and manhandling a 70 pound section into place at the top of two of those climbs01:15
* ion_ does % units 200feet m01:16
lamontion_: 66m01:16
lamontand max height of ~13m01:16
ion_60.96 :-)01:16
lamontiz wag01:16
lamontyou only get 2 sigfigs01:16
lamonttoo tired to actually count what I climbed01:16
lamontwe were short one person, so I climbed to do the upstairs prep, then down to help haul it up, then up to place it, then up/down/up 10 feet to migrate the pole to the top of the newly installed section, then down to do it all over again01:17
lamontfortunately only adding 2 sections to the tower01:17
ion_Heh01:18
jdonglamont: this sounds like the problem used to kick start our math discussion on recursive generator functions01:18
lamontso now my arms are starting to feel it.01:18
jdongI think you're supposed to move the bigger disc to pole 3 first01:18
jdongthen move the next one to poll 2, then bring 3->201:18
lamontjdong: oh, it's definitely at least iterative, recursion would involve not coming down until it was done.01:18
jdong*ducks*01:18
lamontlol01:18
lamontjust one stick01:19
lamontalthough if we grow it again, we'll have to take the top section down to put the new not-top section on before we can put the top back on... so it starts to feel like the tower of hanoi all over again01:19
ion_What's the difference between a recursive function and a recursive generator function? 'foo = 1 + foo' vs. 'foo = 1 : [ a+1 | a <- foo ]' (haskell)?01:20
lamontI may put the 20 foot mast (which would top out at 62' )long story), and slap a flag on that so that I can call it a flag pole.  then light it from below so I don't have to take the flag down - because that'd suck01:20
jdongion_: generator functions track state for you lazily, it's not your job to manage the state of the generator01:21
jdongion_: which is useful for more complex generators01:21
jdongwhere you can just "yield" values at arbitrary points in execution01:22
jdongand the next time you need to generate a value the function "resumes" at that spot01:22
ion_Alright01:22
ion_So a recursive generator function is just that, but happens to be recursive. :-) That is, the latter example is precisely that.01:23
ion_s/recursive generator/generator function/01:23
ion_Uh, scratch that. Too sleepy.01:23
jdongion_: well a generator function in CS is different than a generator function in mathematical theory01:24
pwnguina generating function in math theory is stupid ;)01:24
jdongpwnguin: but it's on the test next week!01:24
pwnguinheh01:24
jdongpwnguin: so I'm kinda out of options :)01:24
pwnguini really cant see the utility in them versus learning more graph theory01:25
* lamont takes a drive to go restart openvpn from the far end. sigh01:25
ScottKHeya lamont.  sgran has me using git now (on clamav), so there's hope for me yet.01:45
LaserJockoh my!01:46
lamontScottK: heh. cool02:19
lamontScottK: I bounce between git and bzr these days02:19
ScottKSo far I've encountered bzr nowhere outside of Ubuntu (I know it's used elsewhere, I just haven't run into it).  Learning yet another VCS special for Ubuntu is low on my list.02:20
LaserJockScottK: so you just need to get a git-bzr ;-)02:22
calcmjg59: http://www.advogato.org/person/mjg59/diary/82.html <- the firmware bug is what exactly? that it defaults to parking at too low an idle time?02:57
Hobbseegood morning02:57
lamontScottK: likewise until I kinda picked up a business need to learn another one...03:06
lamontand I see benefits to both of them.  and insufficient reason to switch between them for things that are already in one or the other03:06
lamontcvs/svn?  definitely shoot it in the head and move to bzr or git. kthx03:07
lamontI wonder if I'd get shot for uploading to intrepid, or if it'll just wait until everything is ready for it03:07
lamontg'morning Hobbsee03:10
ScottKI think we've proven recently that it's impossible to be fired from being a volunteer for Ubuntu, so no reason not to go for it.03:10
persiaIt being frozen, the upload will likely sit in approved03:12
persias/approved/unapproved/03:12
ScottKpersia: Did you see the message to debian-devel about README.Debian.source?03:15
persiaScottK: Yes.  I'm all in favor03:16
calcgot a question, anyone know how to use blktrace?03:16
persiaWith luck, there will be defined rules in debian/rules in the future to for things like "edit-patch", "patch", etc.03:17
ScottKpersia: I'd suggest some updating of our documentation then so we can start pointing REVU victims at it.03:17
calc"blktrace -d /dev/sda -o -" says "/sys/kernel/debug does not appear to be a debug filesystem"03:17
StevenKScottK: s/victims/users/03:17
calcanyone know how to make it work?03:17
persiaScottK: Sounds like a good idea.  You might want to write the suggestion to a mailing list03:17
lamontand util-linux_2.14~rc2-0ubuntu1 heads for intrepid03:17
ScottKStevenK: There's a difference (It's Debian makes you care about the users, not Ubuntu)?03:17
ScottKpersia: Sure.03:18
calcoh nm README.Debian tells me what to do :)03:19
ScottKpersia: Done.03:19
* lamont really afk03:23
* TheMuso is in favour of the README.source file as well.03:42
ScottKFor odd stuff, sure, but I don't see a point in a file that says "This package uses dpatch" and then goes on to explain using dpatch-edit-patch.03:43
ScottKAs with many things, it seems like a decent idea way overdone.03:43
persiaScottK: As it says in that email, for a dpatch using package, it would likely just point to the dpatch info somewhere in /usr/share/doc/dpatch.  On the other hand, it makes answering the question "How do I tell what patch system to use" as easy as "read README.source"03:53
* ScottK doesn't see that as a significant improvment over looking at the build-deps and then reading man dpatch-edit-patch, but OK.03:56
persiaScottK: For the case of an enumerable set of patch systems, I agree.  In order to specifically support an arbitrary set of patch systems, it'd be nice to not have to explain how to check both debian/control, debian/rules, and possibly some random included makefile snippet from somewhere when someone wants to prepare a patch.03:58
ScottKRight, but I think a "Don't bother if it uses dpatch, simple-patchsys, or quilt" rule would make sense.03:59
=== dmb_ is now known as dmb
persiaWell, also, as the set grows unboundedly, it becomes less clear if people would reliably remain familiar with those patch systems.04:00
ScottKBut keep in mind the described purpose of this is for the security team.04:01
ScottKIt's not meant for random developer wanna be's.04:01
persiaWell, it's useful for them.  Anyway, even for the security team, consider the case where someone encounters one of the packages that has patches both applied to the source in diff.gz and stored in debian/patches for reference: these are annoying to update without documentation.  As the set of systems grows, this becomes more of a problem.04:05
persia  At some point in the future, new entrants into the security team may rely on packages being in git or bzr tarballs as a regular course, and be somewhat stumped by someone's specialty dpatch that executes some logical analysis rather than just applying a simple patch.04:05
ScottKSure someday.04:06
persiaRight.  For the common cases, it's just a "This package uses simple-patchsys: see /usr/share/doc/cdbs/simple-patchsys." in README.source.  Not very difficult, yet future-proof.04:08
=== greeneggsnospam is now known as jsgotangco
keesI'd prefer a machine-readable README.source, honestly.04:16
keesbetter yet, common build rules.04:16
keesbut README.source is certainly a good first step.  :)04:16
persiakees: If you'd be up for documenting a model, it could be encouraged for use in REVU as a proving ground.04:30
keespersia: I worry any attempt at this would just result in cdbs-edit-patch.  ;)04:32
persiakees: Maybe, but I'd agree with you that having more defined build rules is the way to go.  I'd like to see "patch", "unpatch", and "edit-patch" be standards.  Let the packager control how the rule is implemented, rather than trying to have some system that does the right thing (e.g. cdbs-edit-patch).04:35
persiaSet some standards, like "edit-patch must leave the user in a subshell, and save changes when complete", and it makes it easy for the updater.04:36
ScottKpersia: Perhaps we should define some kind of common debian build system?04:37
ScottK;-)04:37
keespersia: yeah -- I would love that.  :)04:37
keesScottK: sssh!  ;)04:37
ScottKI guess I don't know how hard this really is.04:37
persiaScottK: We've had two.  I'd rather have a defined interface, than defined code.  This allows flexibility and change, without imposing behavious04:37
persias/s$/r/04:37
ScottKI fixed on one of manoj's packages just before release and even that wasn't that hard.04:37
ScottKIn case you don't know, manoj doesn't even use debhelper.04:38
* ScottK goes to bed (really this time).04:39
persiaThat's fine.  I'm not even especially concerned if people don't use make (although I'm a big fan of make).  I'd just like to see more required rules implemented, so that more standard package manipulation procedures could be automated.04:40
persiaI don't want to have to think about what to do when I want to a) check a new upstream, b) verify the patchset applied, c) apply patches, d) edit patches, 4) package a new upstream, 5) verify rebuild of generated files, etc.04:41
persiaEvery package should have the same interface: `debian/rules foo`.  Ideally, there should be different sets of deps in debian/control so I can always verify that I have the right environment in which to run the rule.04:41
wgrantpersia: I think we should start shipping packages with binary debian/rules, without source.04:55
=== RAOF_ is now known as RAOF
* Hobbsee clubs wgrant04:58
pwnguinyou spelled hugs wrong04:58
* RAOF gives hugs04:59
pwnguinhey RAOF04:59
RAOFHey pwnguin.04:59
pwnguinrandom question: is the drm stuff nouveau needs going to be in mainline kernel any time soon?05:01
RAOFOnce they're reasonably certain they'll not need to change any interfaces, yes.05:01
pwnguinso still no firm date05:01
pwnguinor even soft date05:01
RAOFThat's one of the reasons why testing the randr12 codepath is being pushed right now.05:01
RAOFNo, AFAIK.05:02
persiawgrant: That's a little extreme.  I think we only have a couple binary debian/rules, but without source gets messy.05:02
pwnguinheh, progressQuest05:02
RAOFOnce there are no randr12 blocker bugs it gets enabled by default, then pushed to kernelspace, then pushed to mainline IIUC.05:02
pwnguinso what else uses that besides nouveau? intel?05:03
=== dmb_ is now known as dmb
RAOFpwnguin: Yup.  Intel will, but not quite yet I think.05:03
RAOFpwnguin: Everything _will_, eventually.05:03
wgrantIs TTM part of the new DRM, or not?05:06
pwnguindonno about that.05:08
RAOFI think this depends on what you mean by "new DRM" :).  I don't think that nouveau uses TTM yet, and I'm not sure whether intel does either, outside of git branches.05:08
RAOFI _think_ that with a bunch of git builds you can get DRI2 on (what will be) Xserver 1.5 with Intel, and I'm pretty sure that requires TTM.  So...05:11
a7xi wrote a patch to fix a bug (LP: #221661).  would someone be willing to review it and tell me if it's OK?05:13
jdongbug 22166105:14
jdongoh that's right. no more bots.05:14
jdongpfft05:14
TheMusohuh?05:14
jdongTheMuso: more IRC politics than you want to ever know about...05:14
TheMusojdong: Whats this?05:14
jdongtrust me.05:14
HobbseeTheMuso: you don't want to know.05:14
* TheMuso sighs. So it is to our detriment then.05:15
gnomefreakjdong: we have bots just none have that plugin or are as smart as ubotu05:15
RAOFWhat?  Why no ubotu?05:16
jdonga7x: I looked at the patch, I can't say much about it, I'm not conviinced that it's right or wrong05:16
gnomefreakRAOF: nope no more05:17
RAOF_!!!_05:17
gnomefreakill brb my screen just went really small05:18
a7xthanks.  what should my next step be?  just let it sit until the package maintainer finds it?05:18
warp10Good morning06:13
=== MacSlow_ is now known as MacSlow
pittiGood morning07:23
lucentgreetings07:23
stgrabermorning07:31
SiliciumReiserFS: For when you need to partition your wife. :D07:32
jscinozNice silicium07:40
=== carlos_ is now known as carlos
emgentmorning08:43
pittiKeybuk: hm, MoM seems to be out of date. e. g. it shows debhelper as 6.0.10 in Debian; that was from March09:32
PecisDarbshmmmm, why translation import queue is so long, is there any hope for it to change?09:54
calcyipee intrepid is now open for abuse :)09:54
pwnguinPecisDarbs: if intrepid is open, i imagine there's a whole ton of upstream translations being pulled in now?09:55
PecisDarbsahhh I see09:55
wgrantI doubt the autosyncer would have run yet.09:55
wgrantAs we have no new toolchain quite yet.09:56
calcbasefiles, binutils is there already and a few other things09:56
wgrantI'll wait a few more days before I upgrade.09:57
cjwatsoncalc: will be a little while yet before it's open open10:12
pittidoko, cjwatson: FYI, debhelper merged, tested, fixed (sent to Debian), and uploaded, waiting in unapproved now10:12
cjwatsonpwnguin: I rather doubt that intrepid is open for translations yet10:12
cjwatsonpitti: do we want that in before gcc's done? I was thinking let the C toolchain build first10:13
dokoI don't mind10:13
pitticjwatson: yes, that's fine; just mentioning to avoid double work10:13
pitticjwatson: it's arch:all, so it doesn't matter, but I thought it would be good to have it readily available in the queue10:13
* pitti merges cdbs now10:14
persiapitti: Please either reference the changelogs bit in the changelog or drop it10:15
pittipersia: ECONTEXT?10:15
persiapitti: For hardy, we carried a patch on CDBS that wasn't in the changelogs, which didn't autoinclude upstream changelogs in the binary package.10:16
persiaFor intrepid, it would be my preference to either explicitly document this patch, or not carry it.10:16
pittipersia: oh, sure; I'll walk through the entire delta again anyway10:16
persiapitti: Great.  Just wanted to make sure that didn't get missed again: it wasn't worth a patch to fix the changelog, but confused a lot of REVU'ers10:17
pittiright10:17
seb128persia: why do REVU people look at cdbs changes?10:18
persiaseb128: Because people were getting the warning that they weren't including the upstream changelog from linda, and the CDBS documentation explicitly states that it should be autoincluded by CDBS.  Without the reference in the changelog, several people spent time tracking down the cause to separately answer the question "Why doesn't it work they way it says it should".10:19
seb128ah, ok10:19
persiaOf course, more generally, there is the class of users who use apt-listchanges :)10:20
wgrantDo we really need that patch anyway? It can't save that much space, and there's no longer an easy way to look for upstream changes.10:22
persiaThere's also a heap of packages that work around it in one way or another10:22
pittiwgrant: oh, it saves a lot of space; upstream changelogs are often incredibly huge10:22
pittithey could go into libfoo-dev, but they shouldn't really be in all binaries10:23
seb128wgrant: the space doesn't matter that much on an install but it does on the cd for example10:23
persiaGiven that only a subset of packages are on the CD, and not all of those use CDBS, might it make sense to patch those packages?10:23
pittiXubuntu folks: do we still need cdbs' xfce.mk? AFAIK it's being phased out?10:24
wgrantpersia: That would appear to make the most sense.10:24
seb128no it doesn't10:24
pittipersia: it's still a waste of bandwidth and HD space for users10:24
seb128persia: we don't want to have the whole cd content carying ubuntu specific change for no good reason10:25
persiapitti: I guess, but I've seen a lot of packages that work around it.  Then again, I'm not in a good position to take an opinion based on bandwidth or disk space constraints.10:25
seb128bah, they should not10:26
wgrant... why not?10:26
persiaIf we really want to strip them, it would make more sense to me to have a hook in the build system that pulled them at build-time, to hit all packages, rather than just CDBS packages.10:26
seb128we should fix those and explain to whoever does the change there is no reason10:26
wgrantUpstream changelogs are a good thing.10:26
seb128they are not an user thing10:26
wgrantseb128: We ship the Debian changelog why?10:27
persiaWhy not?  Users have to deal with the mnigration between versions when the upgrade.  This is especially a concern for server-type packages.10:27
wgrantSurely that's going to have even fewer user-visible changes.10:27
* cjwatson hopes the REVU process isn't suggesting people use linda any more, BTW10:27
cjwatsonit's officially phased out in Debian now10:27
persiacjwatson: It does, but there's no linda.  It will likely be dropped when the documentation is next refreshed.10:27
seb128persia: informations which should be displayed on upgrade should go in the README.Debian, not rely on users reading the upstream changelog for each package they update10:28
broonieseb128: YM NEWS.Debian?10:28
seb128or that ;-)10:28
persiaseb128: Do you mean NEWS.Debian?  In that case, I have to echo wgrant's question: why do we ship any changelogs?10:28
* persia reads every changelog for every package installed, but understands this is not a typical level of paranoia10:29
brooniepersia: They're useful if something breaks or you're interested; they just shouldn't be essential reading for everyone.10:29
seb128persia: waouh, so when upgrading a box from dapper to hardy you read over 1000 changelog, I'm impressed ;-)10:29
persiabroonie: That makes sense to me.  What doesn't make sense is specifically stripping changelogs from only CDBS packages that don't use the DEB_CHANGELOGS_ALL variable.10:30
persiaseb128: Well, I did it in stages, but yes.10:30
seb128persia: nobody said this change was perfect, it was required to win CD space and easy to do10:30
persiaseb128: Understood.  Note my lack of complaint about it during the hardy cycle, and further that my request was that it was either dropped or documented.10:31
seb128persia: or you are welcome to suggest a better way which doesn't imply adding ubuntu specific changes to every packages on the CD10:31
looldoko: #224110 for the java issue I mentionned yesterday10:31
loolIt's due to unionfs10:31
persiaPersonally, I think a build-system hook is a better way to do it10:31
seb128what do you call "build-system hook"?10:32
loolI agree with persia, but I fail to reconcile that maintainers want the changelogs shipped on the installed system and that the installed system is copied from the live CD10:32
persiaseb128: As an example, there could be a package that overrides dpkg-deb to strip /usr/share/doc/*changelog*/ when building binaries.10:33
loolIt would require network to e.g. reinstall the missing changelog files after a live CD install10:33
seb128persia: I though you didn't want to strip changelogs and now you want to do it for the whole archive,10:33
seb128?10:33
loolseb128: Only for CD builds I guess, as this is where we want to save space10:33
persiaseb128: I personally like changelogs.  I understand they don't make sense for the CD.  The current implementation of stripping in CDBS seems like a suboptimal solution to me.10:34
seb128persia: it is, as said it was easy and did the job10:34
persiaseb128: Sure.  I'm not arguing the past decision.  Only commenting as we're starting a new cycle, and this would be the time for such changes, if we wanted them.  My main concern was that if we wanted to keep the changelog stripping in CDBS, it be documented in the CDBS changelog.10:35
seb128nobody argued against that and pitti said the he will do the change10:36
seb128I had the impression you were arguing against the change rather than asking to get it documented though10:36
pittipersia: already happened10:36
cjwatsonpitti: have you seen http://liorkaplan.wordpress.com/2008/04/27/why-does-ubuntu-puts-firefox-transalation-in-gnomes-language-pack/#comments ?10:45
cjwatson(err, - #comments)10:45
pitticjwatson: I didn't, looking10:47
pitticjwatson: -gnome was actually a deliberate choice, since Riddell didn't want them on the Kubuntu CDs by default; the package description is indeed wrong, though; fixing in langpack-o-matic10:48
cjwatsonthere's a comment about upgrade path problems10:49
pittiit seems that we wanted the old m-f-locale-* packages to stick around for ffox2, instead of becoming transitional packages pointing to language-pack-gnome-XX10:51
james_wpitti: I can't speak officialy for Xubuntu, but a number of recent uploads have resynchronised on the Debian packaging, so it may well be on the way out.10:52
pittijames_w: I left it in for now10:53
cjwatsonpitti: maybe they should depend on language-pack-gnome-XX as well10:53
cjwatsonit's a bit ugly, but ...10:53
pittiat least it does upgrades 'more' correctly10:53
pittiasac: ^ WDYT? could be worth an SRU10:53
asacpitti: whats the proposal?10:54
asacId love to move the translations to the real langpacks10:54
pittiasac: have m-f-locale-XX depend: on l-pack-gnome-XX10:54
pittiasac: to get an upgrade path10:54
asacpitti: that would help upgraders, but not kubuntu users ... firefox is surely used by most kubuntu users as well.10:56
pittiasac: but that would DTRT for them?10:56
pitticjwatson: I commented on the blog, thanks for the pointer10:57
sorencjwatson: Did we enable the edd magic in the kernel by default for hardy?10:57
pittiasac: s/most/some/, but either way, if they install m-f-locale-XX on Kubuntu, they should get the langpack on upgrade to retain translations10:57
pitticjwatson, doko: FYI, cdbs merged, tested, uploaded10:58
pittiany other quasi-toolchain packages which come to your mind?10:58
pittimake isn't significantly newer in Debian, that can go through auto-syncs10:58
=== davmor2 is now known as davmor2_away
dokomaybe autoconf/automake, I'll prepare python2.5 as well10:59
pittiah, good point10:59
pittiboth are syncs, though10:59
pittiso we can't hold them in unapproved; they should be synced after your toolchain bits built10:59
cjwatsonsoren: can't do so by default, but you can boot with edd=on to get it11:02
cjwatsonsoren: (it causes some machines to hang for a few minutes on boot, and I think may even cause some machines to fail to boot altogether)11:02
sorencjwatson: Ok. I just noticed something about EDD fly by when I booted one of my machines.11:02
asacpitti: yes that should do the right thing for upgraders. but given that most users likely indirectly installed m-f-locale-XX through language-support-XX i still think that the real bug is the -gnome demotion here.11:03
loolpitti: Would it make sense to offer ddebs for ppas?11:07
loolWe use a ppa for ubuntu-mobile and I guess many development/testing happens in ppa; could be cool to have ddebs there too11:08
pittilool: would certainly be nice, but it's (a) a question of storage space, and (2) a question where to process them11:08
pittilool: I'd really like soyuz to support ddebs; the current hack is very brittle11:08
pittiand it's going to get much worse with more ddebs11:08
* pitti sighs at apt-ftparchive being so ridiculously slooooooooow11:09
pittimacaroni.ubuntu.com is busy all day with updating the archive :/ (three runs a day)11:09
loolpitti: apport doesn't work for me on mobile after I enabled it and rebooted it; I wondered whether amitk could check which bits wouldn't be enabled in the kernel, but he doesn't know which these are11:10
loolpitti: Do you have the CONFIG_ flags in mind?  Or perhaps we lack something11:10
wgrantpitti: Let me guess - they're going to implement it post-2.0?11:10
pittilool: it doesn't need anything particular from the kernel since 2.6.2311:11
loolamitk: ^11:11
pittiwgrant: I don't know11:11
loolamitk: So nevermind11:11
loolpitti: What could explain that it doesn't save a crash on sigsegv?11:11
pittilool: is apport set in /proc/sys/kernel/core_pattern ?11:11
loolYes11:12
amitklool: I had no idea it ever required kernel support :) Learnt something new11:12
pittilool: what does "/usr/share/apport/testsuite/test-apport kernel" say?11:12
pittiamitk: it did until feisty11:12
lool* Check that empty core dumps do not generate a report11:12
loolTraceback (most recent call last):11:12
lool  File "/usr/share/apport/testsuite/test-apport", line 174, in <module>11:12
lool    assert app.wait() == 0, app.stderr.read()11:12
loolAssertionError11:12
lool/proc/sys/kernel/crashdump-size doesn't exist11:13
loolNor does it on my desktop though11:13
pittilool: why should it exist? that's from edgy or feisty's Ubuntu kernel patch11:15
pittilool: can you remove /var/log/apport.log, run the test again, and pastebin apport.log?11:15
loolpitti: Nothing in apport.log11:16
loolpitti: I just told you about /proc/sys/kernel/crashdump-size as I saw it pass while set -x-ing the apport init script; didn't know whether it was relevant or not11:17
pittihm11:17
pittilool: the init script just sets core_pattern11:17
pittibut the test suite complains if it isn't set, so that's fine11:17
pittilool: what does this say? echo foo | sudo /usr/share/apport/apport $$ 42 011:21
pittilool: erm, you can drop the sudo, sorry11:22
loolapport (pid 5753) Tue Apr 29 10:23:06 2008: cannot create lock file (uid 1000):11:23
loolpitti: Ok, owner/group issue with our user11:23
loolpitti: thanks11:23
loolpitti: Hmm actually the only difference in groups between my desktop user and the ume mobile user are powerdev and netdev11:25
loolHmm for some reason I see crashes in /var/crash now11:25
loolpitti: Probably where you expected me to grab the log file I guess11:26
pittilool: the log file is in /var/log11:26
pittilool: ah, /var/crash was unwritable?11:26
pittilool: powerdev/netdev are irrelevant, yes11:26
loolpitti: I don't see a log file11:26
pittilool: the command I gave you from above writes to stderr, not to a log11:27
loolpitti: All it gave was that permission error11:27
pittilool: right, so /var/crash/ is unwritable for you11:27
pittilool: drwxrwxrwt 2 root root 4096 2008-04-29 12:22 /var/crash/11:27
pitti^ default in Ubuntu11:27
pitti(1777)11:28
looldrwxrwxrwt 2 root root 4096 Apr 29 10:23 /var/crash/11:28
loolpitti: It's set by the init script11:28
loolSo should be ok here too11:28
loolpitti: This is on unionfs11:28
loolShould be similar to the live CD11:28
pittilool: hm, what's wrong with /var/crash/.lock?11:28
loolThat one is root11:29
lool-rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 0 Apr 29 09:59 /var/crash/.lock11:29
Keybukpitti: it's rebuilding atm11:29
pittilool: ah; please try to remove it11:29
loolpitti: Shall I wipe it?11:29
loolSure11:29
pittilool: otherwise the test suite and above command need to run as root11:29
pittiKeybuk: yay11:29
loolapport (pid 6242) Tue Apr 29 10:30:23 2008: executable: /persistmnt/bin/cat (command line "/bin/cat")11:30
loolapport (pid 6242) Tue Apr 29 10:30:23 2008: executable does not belong to a package, ignoring11:30
loolpitti: Looks like an unionfs issue11:30
loolpitti: Pathname is guessed wrong11:30
loolJust like in #22411011:30
pittiah11:30
loolI guess it's read from /proc11:30
pitti/proc/$$/exe symlink wrong then?11:31
loolIs it working from Ubuntu live CDs?11:31
pittilool: not 100% sure TBH11:31
lool/proc/6231/exe: symbolic link to `/persistmnt/bin/bash'11:31
loolYes11:31
pittilool: aah, it doesn't, but apport has a hack for this11:31
pitti        if self['ExecutablePath'].startswith('/rofs/'):11:31
pitti            self['ExecutablePath'] = self['ExecutablePath'][5:]11:31
pittiapport/report.py ^11:32
loolpitti: Too bad we don't use the same name for the mountpoint :-/11:32
pittilool: you can try changing report.py locally for the /persistmnt/ prefix11:32
loolpitti: Also, packages which be installed afterwards, you should also allow the casper / rw one perhaps11:32
Keybukpitti: it was killed by the debian ftp-master problems a while back11:32
Keybukand it takes a while for bad data to leave it's head11:32
cjwatsonapostrophe!11:33
Keybukcjwatson: coffee!11:34
loolpitti: So what would you think of apport parsing /proc/mounts looking whether / is unionfs and extracting the dirs= attribute from there as a list of prefixes to optionally strip?11:36
pittilool: I think it'd be a nasty workaround for an unionfs bug :/11:37
loolI agree unionfs shall be fixed; I added a tasklet to this effect on the bug I mentionned earlier but TBH I'm not holding my breath11:38
pittiright; in the meantime, it's less intrusive and more robust to add particular prefix special cases to report.py IMHO11:39
pittiespecially if we want to SRU this11:39
loolWhat's the read-write partition on live CDs?  /rwfs?11:41
pittiseb128: hm, re gphoto fs etc, why don't we get a fuse mount for gvfs virtual file systems like gphoto? eog, gthumb, CLI etc. could use that fuse mount then11:45
pittiseb128: (context: gnome bug 530371)11:46
ubot5Gnome bug 530371 in general "fails to open pictures on gphotofs" [Normal,Unconfirmed] http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=53037111:46
cjwatsonlool: /rofs11:46
cjwatsonerr11:46
cjwatsonsorry, misread. it's /cow but in practice not usually accessible as such from outside the initramfs11:46
cjwatsonunless you boot with showmounts11:46
loolcjwatson: Wont programs installed from the live CD return pathnames below /cow in /proc/self/exe?11:47
cjwatsonmaaaaaaybe11:48
* cjwatson would not like to make bets without testing11:48
loolI think so, as it happened to us in the UME unionfs11:48
cjwatsonin any case I meant not usually visible as a mount point in the filesystem; I wasn't arguing with the /proc/self/exe problem11:48
loolThanks for the pathname11:49
loolpitti: Could you check lp:~lool/apport/ubuntu from an apport upstream perspective and then as a SRU candidate?  It now passes the kernel testsuite for me11:54
lool(still pushing though)11:54
ogracjwatson, depends ....11:54
pittilool: can you also run the entire test suite?11:55
pitti/usr/share/apport/testsuite/run-tests11:55
lool(pushed now)11:55
cjwatsonogra: casper's default is not to expose it11:55
cjwatson11:46 <cjwatson> unless you boot with showmounts11:55
ogracjwatson, depends .... gvfs lists the devices in "places" if certain conditions arent fulfilled that makes it ignore them11:56
loolpitti: http://paste.ubuntu.com/8707/11:56
loolOne failure; looks unrelated to the change11:56
ogracjwatson, reading from /proc/mounts11:56
pittilool: hm, might be a problem with unionfs' handling of mtime11:56
loolIndeed11:56
pittilool: could you please comment out that assertNotEqual and run it again?11:57
pittilool: if it's the only failure, it should be ok11:57
pittilool: (reason: the following tests are not run any more after a failure)11:57
seb128pitti: we do get a fuse mount for those, nautilus just pass the uri and not the fuse path to those applications11:58
pittiseb128: oh, that would be the problem then11:58
seb128pitti: http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=528670 is the patch fedora is using11:59
ubot5Gnome bug 528670 in gio "Only pass gio uri's to applications known to use gio" [Normal,Unconfirmed]11:59
ogracjwatson, i realize that ume is different though11:59
seb128pitti: the add a special tag to the .desktop to say what application support gio and pass the fuse path when they don't11:59
loolpitti: http://paste.ubuntu.com/8709/11:59
lool(I had to set LANG)11:59
seb128pitti: they did the change late to get it in hardy though, but I would like to get that in 8.04.1 if possible11:59
pittilool: you have to clean up /var/crash/ before, as it says12:00
pittilool: I just wonder what's wrong with the python crashes12:00
loolI remain with that crash after removing the other crashes12:01
lool(The crash to remove was the one from the other testsuite run)12:01
loolpitti: I get other errors when running the testsuite on my amd64 desktop with the hardy version; could you perhaps run the testsuite with the two versions and see whether it regresses?12:06
loolYou're better qualified than me to decide which tests to ignore and which not :)12:07
pittilool: two versions? you mean from your branch?12:07
loolYes12:07
pittilool: does it regress? or is the hardy final one producing the same?12:07
* pitti checks out the branch12:07
loolI don't know whether it regresses; I'd have to disabled all the failing hardy tests to run it in full12:07
pittiok12:08
* lool lunch &12:09
pittilool: that change looks ok to me, FWIW12:09
pittilool: running tests now12:09
lool(I also confirm it also made my crashing app create a crash file \o/ -- had to empty the battery to reproduce the bug)12:11
pittilool: btw, the easiest (known to me) way to test this is: bash -c 'kill -SEGV $$'12:12
sistpoty|workcan an archive admin please copy xmms-crossfade from hardy-proposed to hardy-updates? (bug #208666)12:14
pittisistpoty|work: this is barely a day old; we usually let them mature a little longer?12:15
pittisistpoty|work: for this bug 7 days are probably too long, though12:16
sistpoty|workpitti: I've talked to jdong and DktrKranz2 yesterday, they were ok with it12:16
sistpoty|work(and it's a rebuild only :)12:16
pittisistpoty|work: ok, done12:17
sistpoty|workpitti: oh, btw.: the 7 day delay is no longer in the StableReleaseUpdates wiki. maybe it should be added again?12:17
sistpoty|workthanks pitti!12:17
emgentheya12:17
pittisistpoty|work: ugh, yes12:17
pittisistpoty|work: it's on https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ArchiveAdministration#head-1f27dc12ab1558ec21b31ac44e4c86a87a4cd05312:18
pittisistpoty|work: since it doesn't belong to the steps that the uploading developer has to do12:18
sistpoty|workpitti: ah, thanks for clarification :)12:19
pittilool: merged into ubuntu branch and pushed; thanks!12:27
* Hobbsee pokes dholbach12:48
dholbachhi Hobbsee12:48
Hobbseedholbach: heya.  query?12:49
=== ryu2 is now known as ryu
dholbachHobbsee: sure12:49
loolpitti: Thanks; let me know if you want me to upload it12:57
loolDuring lunch, I realized this is also probably the explanation for services failing to stop on mobile12:57
loolLike acpid and hal12:57
loolI'd bet on start-stop-daemon being hit by this too12:57
pittilool: please prepare an SRU bug for it12:57
pittilool: you should upload it as 7.1, since I have an ubuntu8 UNRELEASED in trunk (with another change)12:58
wgrant(and 7.1 is proper, recognisable SRU versioning...)12:59
emgentheya wgrant13:01
seb128wgrant: .1 is a debian NMU versionning rather13:01
wgrantseb128: Not if it's after ubuntu, like it would be here.13:02
seb128wgrant: still, if we want a SRU naming policy we should not get one and not rely on NMU numbers or not13:05
seb128wgrant: I usually just do ubuntu<n+1>13:05
wgrantseb128: Everybody else uses ubuntuN.113:06
ograisnt that security versioning ?13:06
wgrantogra: It is.13:06
ograand is it a security update or a SRU bugfix ?13:06
wgrantThe schemes in common use are identical.13:07
seb128wgrant: that's wrong, there is uploads from 5 people using "n+1" which have been accepted to hardy this morning13:07
ograwgrant, nope13:08
wgrantANd I've got no idea why. That's release versioning.13:08
seb128wgrant: you are inventing a rule there13:08
cjwatsonthe reason to use ubuntuN.1 is if you aren't sure whether ubuntu<N+1> will be in use in the next release, or know that it is13:09
seb128wgrant: the only condition is that the hardy upload version has to be smaller than the intrepid one13:09
cjwatsonif you know that ubuntu<N+1> won't be used in the next release, it's OK to use it13:09
cjwatsonseb128: versions also have to be unique, so the hardy version has to have never been used in intrepid13:09
wgrantWhy don't we have an official standard?13:10
cjwatsonit's not necessary13:10
seb128right13:10
cjwatsonthe standard is "don't reuse version numbers"13:10
cjwatson(and obviously the stuff about "ubuntu" inhibiting autosync)13:10
cjwatsonexactly how you choose to achieve that is up to you13:10
ogragiven that we merge at every release cycle begin it is very likely that a package switches to -Xubuntu1 again with a new debian version for most of the packages13:11
ograi think the case for having a higher ubuntuX in -updates is qute rarely possible thourgh that13:11
cjwatsonI think it's quite reasonable to default to ubuntuN.1 since it's almost always safe (NOTE NOT ALWAYS) but there's no reason to complain about ubuntu<N+1> either13:12
stgrabersoren: Hi, I'm playing with kvm and the socket nic. I have a LTSP server listening to a local port and another qemu connecting to it as client. Everything seems extremely slow (I would say <1Mbit/s). Is that normal, do you know how fast is the socket nic supposed to be ?13:13
cjwatsonthe caveat to the above is that if you're e.g. doing simultaneous SRUs to gutsy and hardy and they have the same base version number then you need to choose different version numbers for each13:13
cjwatsonso the simple policy is "don't reuse version numbers" and let developers sort it out13:13
ograwell, its also getting more tricky to tell security updates from normal <release>-updates13:14
ograif you use ubuntuX.1 in SRUs13:14
cjwatsonyou tell security updates from normal updates by looking at the index files13:14
cjwatsonany attempt to do so by version numbers is doomed to unreliability13:15
sorenstgraber: I've never actually used that, actually.13:15
loolpitti: You mean 0.108.1?13:15
sorenstgraber: <1Mbit/s sounds insane, though.13:15
pittilool: right, sorry13:15
loolWhy do we use .1 and not ~hardy1?13:15
cjwatsonX.Y~hardy1 < X.Y13:16
seb128because your suggestion version is smaller?13:16
cjwatsonwe loosely reserve that for backport versioning13:16
seb128suggested13:16
loolcjwatson: Yeah 109~hardy1 or 108+hardy113:16
cjwatsonthen you have to predict the next version number13:16
cjwatsonyou can do that if you like, but it's generally much easier to do it by appending something without ~13:16
seb128ogra: did you read the comments on http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=526320?13:17
ubot5Gnome bug 526320 in gio "should not list mounts that the user doesn't have permission to use" [Normal,Resolved: fixed]13:17
loolWell I would like to use the same versioning scheme in all cases13:17
loolSo +hardy1 for instance13:17
ograseb128, i wont switch ltspfs (which is also widely used in telnet sessions without gui) to mount a hidden dir anywhere ... and i'm also not fond of mounting anywhere in users home dirs (i still wonder how that got past the debian devs for gvfs, i always thought its a general rule to not muck around with homedirs)13:18
ograseb128,  /media is defined as the point to mount user accessible stuff on system level, so ltspfs will go on using it, there is not only gnome in this world :)13:19
loolOk; no particular reason I guess, just no specification and no desire to define this13:19
cjwatsonI do worry that schemes involving the release name will break just after Ubuntu 17.04 and we'll have to figure something out for that13:20
seb128ogra: hum, are those comment in reaction to something written in the bug I pointed right now?13:20
cjwatsonunfortunately we (I think mistakenly) selected ~name1 rather than ~version.1 as the usual backports scheme13:20
loolcjwatson: We do have time, but faced with the same issue I opted for ~804 and +804 version numbers for ume13:20
loolFor backports and branches respectively13:20
cjwatsonyeah, no rush, it just needs to be sorted out at some point. FWIW I believe that the security team has appended .8.04.1 in similar circumstances.13:21
loolWell ~804um1 etc. to be precice13:21
ograseb128, err, sorry wrong bug number, i didnt look and assumed you mean the duplicate from yesterday13:21
lool*precise13:21
ograseb128, (where david suggested to use ~/.ltspfs13:21
ogra)13:21
ograseb128, err ... why did david make all this fuss about "omg we cant use access() it will break everything" ??13:23
ograseb128, that 0750 change warren did is moot13:23
ograonce its mounted ltspfs will refuse acces even to root13:23
seb128because he says that access() can block in case of broken nfs configs, etc13:23
ograonly the ownler can look inside13:23
ograseb128, but his last attachment uses it13:24
seb128ogra: right, I don't really understand what he did, the comment before the patch was going one level down13:24
ograseb128, the gvfs patch looks ine to me, i can adjust the one line in ltspfs if needed (i really doubt it is for us though)13:25
ogra*fine13:25
loolpitti: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/hardy/+source/apport/+bug/22416813:25
ubot5Launchpad bug 224168 in apport "Breaks in more unionfs use cases" [Undecided,Fix committed]13:26
loolpitti: (uploaded)13:26
seb128ogra: that's a glib patch, but good ;-)13:26
ograseb128, whatever helps :)13:26
seb128ogra: I'll sru that13:26
ograthanks :)13:26
ograi'll test and act accordingly13:26
seb128ogra: arg, it goes down one level13:28
ogra?13:28
seb128ogra: for /media/ltsp it'll g_access /media13:28
seb128g_path_get_dirname() does that13:28
ograthere is no /media/ltsp13:28
ograoh13:29
seb128that was a mountpoint example13:29
ograit us /media/$USER/<devicename>13:29
seb128so that's what he commented before13:29
ograat least in the ltspfs we use13:29
seb128you use that naming?13:29
ograyes, since ltspfs exists13:29
seb128ok, so it'll stat /media/$USER, does that work for you?13:29
ograyup13:29
seb128ok, still it doesn't fix the original bug13:29
ogra /media/$USER also wont exist if ther is no device13:30
seb128does using access() on /media/something where /media/something is a nfs mount can block?13:30
ograits created dynamically during the ltspfs mount13:30
ograi doubt that13:30
seb128ie, does it look at the local directory permissions or does it try accessing the nfs?13:30
ograwe had many nfs home users in feisty edgy and gutsy13:30
ogranobody ever complained that gnome-vfs was any issue13:30
ograthe access patch was there since edgy13:31
seb128that's what I commented upstream13:31
stgrabersoren: and a ping to the other computer returns 5 DUPS :) something seems to be wrong with that socket thing13:31
stgraber(or me using it not correctly)13:31
seb128"It's surely an issue for networked mounts (nfs, autofs, some fuse based stuff)13:31
seb128that times out. Then we hang calling access() and as a result GNOME logins etc.13:31
seb128will fail when a mount times out because we hang in the volume monitor instance13:31
seb128of every process (panel, nautilus, settings daemon all instantiate a volume13:31
seb128monitor)."13:31
seb128hum13:32
seb128I don't know enough about those to know if that's true or not13:32
seb128anybody here who has a clue if an access() call on a nfs mountpoint can hang?13:32
ograseb128, we did access() calls with the old patch13:33
ograit didnt hang for three releases13:33
ograi dont think it will just start hanging now13:33
seb128maybe you didn't have nfs server timeout or other similar issues?13:33
seb128and in case you did that's enough to break ltsp anyway no?13:33
ograseb128, many of my ltsp/edubuntu users use nfs or samba mounted homedirs13:33
seb128right, in which case nfs being broken screw your session13:34
ograand the access() call was issued for *every* mount in gnome-vfs with pittis patch13:34
seb128would be interesting to test when you have a secondary nfs mount, ie something you don't rely on to use your computer13:34
seb128right, but I'm not sure nobody had issues with that13:35
ograall your nfs mounts would always have caused issues13:35
ograif access() really would cause hangs13:35
ograyou would have seen it all over the board13:35
seb128ogra: ok, what I though but I'm just guessing from the feedback we got and I don't know the topic well enough to argue upstream about that13:37
ograi'm just relying on experience ... LP would drown in nfs bugs if upstream were right13:37
ograsince years13:37
=== davmor2_away is now known as davmor2
ograseb128, i'm not sure how gvfs changed here though that it could start becoming an issue through the new design13:39
ograit definately didnt cause issues in gnome-vfs to use access() on nfs mounts13:39
seb128well, my question was really "can an access() call on a nfs mountpoint block"13:40
seb128what I would like is to know that, not to guess based on the fact that gnome-vfs might have been handling a blocking call correctly13:40
=== danielm_ is now known as danielm
ograseb128, right, i cant judge the gvfs setup here, i can only judge by experience with gnome-vfs13:45
ogra(which has proven that access() alone wont do harm, but the way you use it certainly has influence here)13:46
seb128ogra: the question is really about the access() system call, not about gvfs ;-)13:46
ograwell, david (proxied through warren) told me that gvfs works differently and gnome-vfs used a separate thread to get the access info for example ... if gvfs is doing it from the main thread and there is a block it might have issues13:47
seb128ogra: right, that's what I said13:48
ograseb128, but according to the bug david has checked it in anyway upstream13:49
seb128what? the patch?13:49
seb128yes, it fixes your ltsp case13:49
ogra"Which, for reasons explained above, is the best we can do. So I'm closing this13:49
ograbug as FIXED.13:49
ogra"13:49
ograand above comment has a checkin message13:50
seb128but it doesn't fix the case from the bug description13:50
ogradid you try ?13:50
seb128/media/usbkey-uid1000 should not be listed for other users13:50
seb128no, I don't need to13:50
ograright13:50
seb128the patch call g_access() on /media in this case13:50
seb128it'll only work in the /media/$USER/mount ltsp case13:51
ograseb128, why cant the access() call just get a timeount added13:53
ograhe just needs to wrap it in a g_timeout ...13:54
seb128because the mount listing has to be something fast13:54
ografor access() ?13:54
seb128the whole thing13:54
ograwell, i mean to avoid a constant blocking13:55
seb128you want an async api, but that would complicate things a lot13:55
seb128right now you can do a sync call to get the mounts list13:55
ograyou call access() anyway .... david says that would block if there is a stale montpoint so just return after a timeout ad gve back "False"13:55
seb128and be sure it'll return quickly13:55
seb128you don't want nautilus and the panel waiting 30s on a nfs timeout because they refresh the mounts list13:56
seb128and doing async operations make things much harder13:56
ograso it either will return quickly or in case of a stale mount wait a second to give it a chance to react and then return false13:56
ograstale nfs mounts are not the regular thing usually13:57
seb128right, but now you are turning some clean code to workarounds and they want to avoid that13:57
ograhmm13:58
* ogra wonders if there isnt a way to determine the owner of a dir without using access() 14:04
seb128there is no magically way, if you try to stat a nfs mounted directory you will hand the same way14:05
seb128what we need is a way to know what is local and only try on those14:05
ograwell, but you said they want to avoid workarounds, th epatch i see now being added operates on the amount of direcory layers ? thats a workaround as well (and less asne imho)14:06
ogra*sane14:06
seb128I don't say I consider the patch a good idea ;-)14:07
ograunless you have /media on nfs there is no possibility to make it non local with ltspfs14:07
=== asac_ is now known as asac
ograltspfs mounts will always be local for the user POV14:07
seb128right, the thing is that we can iter over the media mountpoints14:08
seb128you can have14:08
seb128usbkey14:08
seb128ltspdir14:08
ograand yes, it doesnzt fix the initial issue at all14:08
seb128nfs14:08
seb128anyway I'll think about it14:08
ogracan you check for filesystems of mounts ?14:08
seb128the current change will work for ltsp at least14:08
ograltspfs identifies itself as ltspfs14:08
seb128that will not work for fuse mounts for example14:09
ograso special casing is possible at least14:09
ograltspfs is fuse :)14:09
ograits just a kind of autofs wrapper around it14:09
dnearymjg59: Ping?14:10
dnearySuspend/resume worked fine with the LiveCD14:10
cody-somervilledneary, What about hibernate? :P14:11
ogracody-somerville, is disabled dleiberately14:12
ogra(you dont have the button in the ui at least)14:13
* cody-somerville winks.14:13
ograit could work with enough swapspace and some hacking in casper i bet :)14:13
cody-somervilleIf it wasn't such a useless feature, I'd think about adding support to hibernate to NTFS drives.14:13
mjg59dneary: Ok, interesting14:22
mjg59dneary: How are you triggering the suspend?14:22
dnearyI followed the suggestion of someone yesterday who pointed me at a bug report, and created a WORKAROUND file into which I put a suspend line14:22
dnearyCan't find the exact command now - the link to the bug is in my blog14:23
dnearymjg59: Either manually with Fn-Veille, or by shutting the lid14:23
dnearyWith the LiveCD, I tried both14:23
dnearyBoth worked, once I'd configure gnome-power-manager to suspend when shutting the lid14:24
dnearyThere's that thing I tried (deleting the WORKAROUND file now, since the problem's still there): https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/21157214:28
ubot5Launchpad bug 211572 in linux "[Hardy] [regression] ehci_hcd.ko breaks suspend-to-ram" [Undecided,Confirmed]14:28
mjg59dneary: As root, does pm-suspend work and resume correctly?14:28
mjg59dneary: Oh, and you said you had some sort of upgrade issue - are you running the 2.6.24 kernel?14:29
dnearydneary@sligo:/etc/pm/config.d$ uname -a14:29
dnearyLinux sligo 2.6.24-16-386 #1 Thu Apr 10 12:50:06 UTC 2008 i686 GNU/Linux14:29
mjg59Yeah, looks right14:29
dnearylet me try pm-suspend14:29
dnearyI'll join on IRC on a different machine in 2 secs.14:30
mjg59Ok14:30
ogra2.6.25 has the usb persistent patch i heard ...14:31
bolshHi all14:31
bolshmjg59: I'm ready to try pm-suspend now14:31
dnearyI just run it, right?14:31
dnearyYes, that works14:32
dnearySo it's starting to look like I have some acpi hang-over from previous releases?14:32
dnearyAnd NM is making funny faces at me - it's showing that I've got a wired connection, the wifi indicator light is off14:33
dnearybut I obviously have wifi, since I can see myself talking14:33
ion_Sorry, you're just having a psychotic episode; we're not real.14:34
mjg59dneary: Yeah, that's sounding kind of weird14:35
mjg59dneary: Try deleting /etc/acpi/sleep.sh and seeing what happens when you select sleep in g-p-m14:35
dnearymjg59: I'd send you my laptop, but you probably don't want it, and I kind of need it :)14:36
mjg59dneary: Not really my problem as much any more, anyway :)14:36
dnearyIf I did a dpkg -l *acpi*, would you be able to tell me if there were stuff there that shouldn't be?14:37
mjg59Nope14:37
mjg59Only thing I can remotely think of is to make sure you don't have an s2ram binary installed somehow14:38
pittiRiddell, any KDE user: can you confirm bug 212551? apport setu/gids to SUDO_UID and SUDO_GID for opening the browser14:38
ubot5Launchpad bug 212551 in apport "Kubuntu Adept [Report Bug] launches Konqueror as root" [Undecided,New] https://launchpad.net/bugs/21255114:38
Riddellpitti: I'm not sure that's being run through apport14:42
Riddellcould be just the update tool's crash handler14:42
pittioh14:43
dnearymjg59: I have acpi-support installed, which installed the sleep.sh script14:43
mjg59dneary: Yeah, that's correct14:45
mjg59dneary: My concern is that something's still calling that, which shouldn't happen14:45
dnearySo is that to be removed?14:45
dnearyah14:45
mjg59acpi-support is still needed, but the sleep script is legacy14:46
pittiseb128: hm, do you have any idea what takes so long in the bootchart of bug 184977?14:58
ograseb128, i wonder if open() would behave differently than stat or access()14:58
ubot5Launchpad bug 184977 in gnome-volume-manager "session start takes very long" [Medium,Incomplete] https://launchpad.net/bugs/18497714:58
johanbrmjg59: Isn't there a difference in that the HAL scripts run pm-suspend with some quirks?15:01
mjg59johanbr: The quirks are all ignored on i915 and higher15:02
seb128pitti: urg, no, usually those are "loopback is not correctly configured" bugs or "one program registered in the session is buggy" (though the buggy registering should not block everything)15:02
seb128pitti: I would ask him to try if "ping localhost" is working and maybe to try with an another user account on the same box15:02
ograthere is a lot xfce in that bootchart15:03
cody-somervilleogra, hmm?15:11
ograseb128, pitti, i would ask him to get away from this desktop mishmash first :)15:12
dnearysorry - was away15:19
dnearyLots to do today15:20
pittiogra: mishmash?15:33
pittiseb128: thanks!15:33
ograpitti, it uses xscreensave, xfwm4 and some xfce-mcs processes in that chart15:33
ograalongside with gnome15:34
ograpitti, i thik its well possible that he for example added xfwm to a .xsession script instead of setting it in gconf so compiz will still kick in and check if it can run to find another WM is running15:35
ogra(or via the gnome session dialog, which still leaves gconf pointing to compiz)15:36
jcwinnieirc chat for Hardy Heron support is ?16:29
ScottK#ubuntu16:29
jcwinnieno16:30
ScottKYes16:30
jcwinnienothing there16:30
ScottKThat's it.16:30
jcwinniejust reference to archives16:30
jcwinnieDocs say go there, but nothing there16:30
ScottKThen you didn't actually go there (check your spelling).16:30
ScottKThere are 1463 people there right now.16:31
norsettoall of which talking at the same time16:31
jcwinniek16:31
jcwinnienow I am there16:31
jcwinniesorry for the interruption16:31
ScottKNo problem.16:31
norsettowhat do you expect from a kubuntu's user ...16:32
persiaA desire to join #kubuntu?16:32
norsettopersia: nice to see you are still alive16:33
=== toresbe_ is now known as toresbe
=== CarlF1 is now known as CarlFK
sorenWhat on earth does ${*-*} mean in bash?16:45
seb128soren: it's a smiley? ;-)16:45
persiasoren: A list of files containing the '-' character in the current directory16:46
sorenpersia: That's *-*, isn't it?16:46
persiaHmm...  Right.16:46
persiaBut ${...} should only deliminate a reference, so...16:47
persiaErr.  delineate16:47
persiaErr.  Nevermind.  I can't spell.  That thing with lines and separation and stuff.16:47
sorenI'll ask the author. It looks quite strange.16:48
persiaAnd this is in bash, and not embedded somewhere, like in a makefile?16:49
cjwatsonsoren: literally ${*-*}, or ${foo-bar}?16:58
cjwatson       ${parameter:-word}16:58
cjwatson              Use Default Values.  If parameter is unset or null, the expansion of word is substituted.  Otherwise, the value of parameter is substituted.16:58
cjwatsoncould be that (if you omit the colon, you get a test for a parameter being just unset, rather than unset or null)16:59
cjwatson$* expands to all the parameters to the current function or script16:59
dnearycjwatson: You need the : for that16:59
cjwatsonno you don't16:59
cjwatson"omitting the colon results in a test only for a parameter that is unset"16:59
cjwatsonsoren: so ${*-*} would mean "$*, or if $* is unset then the expansion of *"17:00
dnearyyou learn something new almost every day17:00
cjwatsonsoren: but it's pretty odd and possibly a mistake17:00
dnearyOr obfuscation17:00
MitchMsoren, http://wooledge.org:8000/BashFAQ/073 #this is a good reference.17:00
cjwatsonnote that $* is unset if there are no positional parameters. Try e.g.:17:01
cjwatsonfoo () { echo ${*-a}; }; foo; foo 1 2 317:01
cjwatsonso it might actually be a reasonable thing to do if the function within which ${*-*} is used takes filename arguments17:02
cjwatsonpersia: delimit. :-)17:03
persiacjwatson: Yes.  Thank you :)17:03
sorencjwatson: Ah.. Thanks! I didn't know you could leave the colon out.17:08
sorencjwatson: Is that a bash thing or posix sh thing?17:08
sorenA bash thing, it seems.17:10
cjwatsonsoren: POSIX sh17:11
sorenOh, yes, so it is.17:12
cjwatsonhttp://www.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/009695399/utilities/xcu_chap02.html#tag_02_06_02 "In the parameter expansions shown previously, use of the colon in the format shall result in a test for a parameter that is unset or null; omission of the colon shall result in a test for a parameter that is only unset."17:12
sorenAh, yes, there it is.17:15
dnearySo - anyone know what happens when I do a suspend in 8.04? Which commands execute which hooks?17:17
dnearyThat is, I've configured power management so that when I shut the lid I suspend, but that's apparently doing rather more than just running pm-suspend - I seem to be pulling in acpi scripts too17:21
dnearyand they are not playing nively together17:21
dnearySo I'd like to try & figure out what's calling what to fix it.17:22
mjg59dneary: g-p-m calls hal, which executes hal-system-power-suspend-linux17:29
dnearymjg59: and hal-system-power-suspend-linux is a script?17:29
mjg59Yes17:29
dnearyIs it possible for two scripts to be subscribed to the same dbus message?17:30
mjg59No17:30
dneary(assuming g-p-m goes over dbus)17:30
dnearyOK - so there can be only one HAL script executed, then?17:31
mjg59Yeah17:31
dnearyThere's also suspend-hybrid-linux in there17:31
dnearywhat's the difference?17:31
mjg59That saves state to disk, then puts the system in suspend to ram17:31
mjg59We don't use it17:31
dneary'kay17:31
ted1mjg59: Does HAL pull the info out of the FDI files or does hal-system-power-suspend-linux?17:53
mjg59hal does17:53
ted1So if I add a new FDI file, or change one, I need to restart HAL?17:54
sjoerdted1: hal watches the fdi dirs with inotify17:56
ted1Ah, cool.17:56
sjoerdted1: but afaik it doesn't reapply the rules, so i'm not sure if it'll help in your case17:56
ted1What do you mean by "reapply the rules"?17:58
=== slangase` is now known as slangasek
davmor2Amaranth: are the Questions in classroom-chat transferred manually (we doing a talk tomorrow for the first time)18:34
=== fta_ is now known as fta
hwildeanybody seen ubotu ?20:06
cjwatsonyow, devscripts merge => complicated20:18
cjwatsonhwilde: see drama on ubuntu-irc@20:18
bdmurraypitti: is bug 206921 SRU worthy?  I believe it is but want to confirm20:19
ubot5Launchpad bug 206921 in hal "MacBook brightness adjustment does not work in Hardy" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/20692120:19
hwildecjwatson, see what where?20:20
cjwatsonhwilde: http://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-irc/20:23
cjwatsonspecifically the "Goodbye" thread20:23
ompaul!ubotu20:24
ubot5I am ubotu, all-knowing infobot. You can browse my brain at http://ubotu.ubuntu-nl.org/factoids.cgi - Usage info: http://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuBots20:24
hwildeoh its ubot5 now!20:24
ompaulubot5 is getting an education - not all factoids are in there yet20:24
ubot5ompaul: Error: "is" is not a valid command.20:24
ubot5ompaul: Error: I am only a bot, please don't think I'm intelligent :)20:24
* ompaul chuckles - case in point20:25
hwildewtf is this nonsense I want ubotu back20:25
hwildesomebody owns him and threw a hissy fit ?20:25
ion_ubot5: You're in violation of an RFC. Please NOTICE any automatic messages instead of PRIVMSGing them. Kthxbye.20:26
ubot5ion_: Error: "You're" is not a valid command.20:26
ubot5ion_: Error: I am only a bot, please don't think I'm intelligent :)20:26
* cjwatson takes a lock on the devscripts merge, BTW; I'm partway through but it will take a while20:27
cjwatsonI'm making some tidy-up changes in the process20:27
hwildeI wish somebody would have told me :/20:28
ompaulhwilde, you currently the code is being parsed and uploaded to new bot - it should be okay in a few hours20:28
hwildeI could have brute force siphoned all of ubotu's knowledge20:28
* ompaul reads the you and gives up20:29
hwildehehe20:29
hwildeit's almost wednesday, don't give up yet20:29
ompaulhmm about three and a half hours to go and I have no preparations done for tomorrow where is this week gone argh20:31
ompaulwoops20:32
hwildeok so if X11 requires gksu instead of sudo, and sudo can cause problems with X11 apps, why isn't that handled automagically ?20:32
pittibdmurray: confirmed; it's a very confined patch to the hw specific backend20:40
bdmurraypitti: right, it looked pretty minimal.  should I do anything to move it along?20:41
pittibdmurray: I already modified the bug accordingly, currently applying the patch20:45
pittibdmurray: I have a pending hal SRU, and it wasn't accepted yet, so I'll slip it in20:46
bdmurraypitti: great, thanks!20:46
pittibdmurray: committed and uploaded to hardy-proposed, waiting for someone to accept it now20:56
=== cprov is now known as cprov-afk
outworlderthe Chicken Scheme package available in the repositories is too old. What is the procedure that must be followed to get a newer version into the repositories?21:34
Peter_HoffmannHello everybody. Is there anyone remembering a change in "gio" (part of glib) which is in charge of showing icons for mounts on the desktop - in hardy?21:34
=== ryu2 is now known as ryu
Peter_HoffmannIs it possible, that someone changed that gio-thing (mentioned above) and now it shos every mount that ist not in fstab or not mounted by using UUID?22:01
seb128_re22:17
seb128_Peter_Hoffmann: what is your gio issue?22:17
Peter_HoffmannI do see mounts that are mounted in my homedirectory22:19
=== seb128_ is now known as seb128
Peter_Hoffmannsee = Icons on my desktop22:20
seb128that's how it's supposed to work when using gvfs22:20
seb128the mount in your user directory and in media are listed22:20
Peter_HoffmannI discovered that about 1min ago that it's not only /media (that is what everybody tells you) but also /home/$user22:21
seb128did you read what I just wrote?22:21
Peter_HoffmannBut that changed from 7.10 to 8.0422:21
seb128yes, 7.10 was using gnome-vfs22:21
seb128GNOME switched to the new gvfs this cycle22:21
seb128and 8.04 is using gvfs too22:21
Peter_HoffmannI even asked in #gnome but nobody there thougt of that22:22
Peter_Hoffmannso you finaly are the first person that is telling me something supportive :-) Thanks!22:22
Peter_HoffmannI didn't recognice that little detail when I updated22:22
Nafalloseb128 rocks :-)22:22
Peter_Hoffmann+lol+22:23
Peter_HoffmannEverybody was like: If you don't want to see the icons you have to mount it somewhere else then /media/ and I was like: I do have that but finaly. Another successful day *g*22:25
=== ubot5 is now known as ubottu
LaserJockseb128: is there then a way to not have specific mounts not show up on the desktop?22:29
seb128LaserJock: mount thoses not in your user directory or media, otherwise no22:30
LaserJockseb128: but how do you have them not mounted in your user directory?22:31
seb128LaserJock: dunno what you are mounting, but "man mount" and read how to change the mount point there?22:32
LaserJockseb128: that doesn't help you with removable media does it?22:33
LaserJockor automatically mounted stuff in any case22:33
seb128LaserJock: removable medias are mounted in media usually22:34
seb128you can change the gnome-mount options I guess22:34
mathiazseb128: Bugs file against samba tend to deal with "cannot browse/transfer file to Windows since I've updated to Hardy" these days22:35
mathiazseb128: how should these be handled/marked ?22:35
mathiazseb128: should I open a new task for the nautilus-package ?22:35
seb128mathiaz: we have a zillion of those, reject those as duplicates or reassign to gvfs and let us do that for you22:36
mathiazseb128: ok - so I'll reassign to gvfs then22:36
seb128you like to give me extra work? ;-)22:37
mathiazseb128: well - I'm not sure they're not completly unrelated to samba22:37
mathiazseb128: some people are using cifs mount in fstab22:37
seb128mathiaz: if you want to help figure what is wrong you can ask them those questions:22:37
seb128- does it work using smbclient22:37
seb128- do you have access to '/' on the server22:38
seb128- do you need extra credentials to browse the share, and is it accessible anonymously too22:38
seb128if that's a connect to server issue22:38
seb128another issue is that you can't enter a password to browse a network22:39
seb128the most common issues otherwise is that you can't change your credential if something is accessible anonymously22:39
seb128and that the mounting doesn't work when '/' is not available to the user on the server22:39
mathiazseb128: browse a network shouldn't require credential22:39
seb128mathiaz: it does sometimes, in case of active directory, etc apparently22:40
mathiazseb128: hum - I should also ask if the issue is on a desktop acting as a client or on a server22:40
mathiazseb128: mmmm - AD.. and browsing ?22:41
seb128mathiaz: https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/gvfs/+bug/20707222:41
ubottuLaunchpad bug 207072 in nautilus "nautilus does not display samba shares for machines inside an ADS network." [Low,Invalid]22:41
seb128mathiaz: read that for details22:42
mathiazseb128: right - I was confused by your usage of browsing22:44
seb128ah, sorry22:44
seb128how do you call that?22:44
mathiazseb128: to me browsing is when you want to get a list of machines in the same workgroup22:44
seb128I use if for list of machines or list of shares on a box22:45
mathiazseb128: you're using browsing as listing the shares available on one machine22:45
seb128I use it for both because that's basically "list whatever is available" in both cases22:45
mathiazseb128: right - list of machines is different than list of shares on a machine22:45
seb128anyway this bug is one of the known annoying issue22:45
mathiazseb128: right - from the windows networking point of view, the protocal are totally different22:45
seb128https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/gvfs/+bug/223372 is an another one22:46
ubottuLaunchpad bug 223372 in gvfs "gvfsd-smb mounting requires / to be accessible to the user and should not" [High,Triaged]22:46
seb128and we have https://bugs.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/gvfs/+bug/209520 but that is a collection of different issues22:46
ubottuLaunchpad bug 209520 in nautilus "SMB error: Unable to mount location" [Undecided,Confirmed]22:46
mathiazseb128: ok - I see that you already have loads of bug reports22:48
mathiazseb128: for the bugs filed against samba, I'll ask if smbclient works or not22:48
seb128yes22:48
seb128I've reassigned some to samba where smbclient was not working22:48
mathiazseb128: if smbclient works correctly, I'll assume it's a problem with gvfs22:48
seb128let me know if that's wrong22:49
mathiazseb128: if smbclient doesn't work then I'll keep it open in samba22:49
seb128ok22:49
mathiazseb128: I don't think it's wrong - smbclient is a good test to rule out issues with gvfs22:49
mathiazseb128: if smbclient fails, it may be a problem on the server22:50
mathiazseb128: so if smbclient is successfull, which bug number should I use as a duplicate ?22:50
seb128right, usually I ask if they can use the share from an another OS or version of ubuntu too22:50
seb128mathiaz: as said, either you ask for details or just reassign and I'll do that22:51
seb128mathiaz: it's likely one of the issues I listed before22:51
mathiazseb128: ok - thanks22:53
seb128mathiaz: np, and you are welcome to look at the gvfs issues if you want ;-)22:54
seb128_re22:56
seb128_dsl disconnected again22:56
seb128_mathiaz: what did you get before?22:56
mathiazseb128_: 17:54 < seb128> mathiaz: np, and you are welcome to look at the gvfs issues if you want ;-)22:57
seb128_ok22:57
seb128_mathiaz: btw do you now if an access() call on a nfs mountpoint can hang is some cases? or is it only accessing the local directory?22:57
seb128_you didn't get this one then ;-)22:58
mathiazseb128_: access() may hang if the nfs server went away22:58
mathiazseb128_: the problem with nfs IIRC is that timeouts are reallly long22:59
seb128_doh, ok22:59
mathiazseb128_: like 10 or 15 minutes22:59
seb128_that sucks22:59
mathiazseb128_: so it doesn't hang - it just takes a looong time to time out22:59
seb128_another gvfs issue22:59
seb128_we got a request to not list the mounts not accessible to the user22:59
seb128_an easy way is to call access() on the mountpoint23:00
seb128_but the current code is not async23:00
seb128_so upstream is right, that would not work23:01
=== ember_ is now known as ember
Riddellpitti: kdebase upload to hardy-proposed needing approval for bug 19447423:52
ubottuLaunchpad bug 194474 in kdelibs "[hardy] kded in loop (100%CPU) when using 'mount automatically'" [Undecided,Confirmed] https://launchpad.net/bugs/19447423:52

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