[14:58] <sinzui> To the tune of _Doe a deer_:
[14:58] <sinzui> Dough, the thing that buys my beer
[14:58] <sinzui> Ray, the guy that pours my beer
[14:58] <sinzui> Me, the guy that drink my beer
[14:59] <barry> Fa, the sound i make when i drink too much beer
[15:00] <sinzui> So, I'll have another beer
[15:00] <sinzui> Tea? No thanks I'll have a beer
[15:00] <barry> #startmeeting
[15:00] <intellectronica> me
[15:01] <barry> mootbot's pushing up daisies so we're kicking this old school
[15:01] <barry> who's here today?
[15:01] <statik> me
[15:01] <gmb> me
[15:01] <bac> me
[15:01] <sinzui> me
[15:01] <schwuk> me
[15:01] <flacoste> me
[15:01] <BjornT> me
[15:01] <allenap> me
[15:02] <barry> salgado: ping
[15:02] <barry> bigjools: ping
[15:03] <barry> == Agenda ==
[15:03] <barry>  * Roll call
[15:03] <barry>  * Next meeting
[15:03] <barry>  * Action items
[15:03] <barry>  * Queue status
[15:03] <barry>  * Mentoring update
[15:03] <barry>  * Review process
[15:03] <barry>    * How to manage workload of reviewing (intellectronica, sinzui? gmb?)
[15:03] <barry>    * comparing strings with `is` (stevea)
[15:03] <barry>    * overly broad `KeyError`s (stevea)
[15:03] <barry>    * adding lpreview to sourcecode?
[15:03] <barry>    * People should be updating sampledata when they add columns to tables (gmb). All too often I find myself running make newsampledata only to discover a bunch of changes that are nothing to do with me and which merely do things like setting new fields to NULL. This inflates the linecount of a diff and, worse, makes sampledata harder to debug. People should be running make newsampledata on their DB patch branches, or at least on the c
[15:03] <barry> ode branches that descend from the DB patches.
[15:03] <barry>      * Perhaps add a check to the lint report? -- GavinPanella
[15:03] <barry>  * Next meeting
[15:03] <barry> today += weeks(1) ?
[15:04] <barry> anybody know you'll be missing?
[15:04] <statik> wouldn't miss it for anything
[15:04] <barry> great!
[15:04] <barry>  * Action items
[15:04] <barry>  * barry drive to decision about multiline sequences
[15:05] <barry> i suck, but i will do this today or tomorrow
[15:05] <barry>  * gmb to add lpreview to sourcecode and hack rf-setup to link it in
[15:05] <gmb> Haven't touched this since last week what with roll-out coming up
[15:06] <gmb> But mthaddon was having trouble branching it for sourcecode.
[15:06] <gmb> I'll tackle this once rollout is complete.
[15:06] <barry> gmb: sounds great, thanks
[15:06] <barry>  * bigjools to email list about cleaning up after branches land
[15:06] <salgado> me
[15:06] <barry> bigjools is mia, but i /think/ this was done, wasn't it?
[15:06] <salgado> sorry for being late
[15:06] <barry> salgado: no worries
[15:07] <sinzui> barry: It was done
[15:07] <barry> sinzui: ok, thanks
[15:07] <barry>  * gmb to prod mwh again about the 800-line limit patch
[15:07] <gmb> FAIL.
[15:07] <gmb> Will do it today.
[15:07] <barry> we'll just continue this one
[15:08] <barry>  * intellectronica to add js style guide link to TipsForReviewers
[15:08] <intellectronica> i'm pretty sure i did this last week, let me check
[15:08] <intellectronica> i did
[15:09] <barry> intellectronica: thanks!
[15:09] <barry>  * sinzui to update js style guide page with helpful resources
[15:09] <sinzui> Not Done
[15:09] <barry> no worries, we'll just continue this one
[15:09] <barry>  * Queue status
[15:10]  * barry can't get to the PR wiki
[15:11] <intellectronica> my sincere apologies for not doing any PR reviews (and rejecting a few on irc). i must finish some stuff before the release
[15:11] <barry> ah there it is
[15:11] <barry> intellectronica: it happens
[15:11] <bac> leonard's is the only one in the general queue.  i didn't have time to get to it yesterday
[15:11] <bac> and he just added it to the GQ
[15:12] <barry> maybe we should just assign leonard's branch to someone?
[15:12] <barry> anybody have time to review it?
[15:13] <gmb> barry: I will after today.
[15:13] <barry> gmb: great, thanks
[15:14] <barry> gmb: can i put it in your queue?
[15:14] <gmb> sure
[15:14] <barry> cool
[15:14] <barry> anything else on the queue?
[15:14] <barry>  * Mentoring update
[15:14] <barry> bac: wanna do the honors?
[15:15] <bac> yes
[15:15] <bac> Today we're graduating Gavin.  Well done and hoorah.
[15:15]  * gmb applauds
[15:15]  * allenap does \o/
[15:15] <sinzui> \o/
[15:15] <intellectronica> go allenap!
[15:15] <flacoste> congratulations allenap!
[15:15] <allenap> Thanks bac :)
[15:15] <schwuk> \o/
[15:16] <bac> it was my pleasure
[15:16] <barry> allenap: congrats!
[15:16] <allenap> Thanks everyone.
[15:17] <barry> now that we have an open slot and EdwinGrubbs has been nominated for recruitment,  we need a mentor for him though
[15:17] <barry> salgado: do you think you can mentor him?
[15:18] <salgado> barry, I was thinking about that
[15:18] <barry> salgado: you don't have to answer right now.  just let me know
[15:18] <barry> salgado: if you can't that's cool, we'll find another mentor for him
[15:18] <salgado> if I mentor him, what happens with my on-call term?
[15:18] <statik> while mentoring is important, I think we should also feel comfortable taking a month off from mentoring, to avoid burnout
[15:19] <salgado> can EdwinGrubbs take it over and I only mentor him during that day?
[15:19] <barry> salgado: EdwinGrubbs would be oncall with you and he would do most if not all of the reviews.  you would mentor his reviews, but hopefully not do too many of your own
[15:19] <barry> statik: do you think we should do that team-wide, or just for a particular mentor?
[15:19] <sinzui> salgado: That is essentially what I have done working with schwuk
[15:20] <statik> barry: I just wanted to mention it, we all sometimes need to hear that it is ok to say no :)
[15:20] <salgado> okay, I can do it, then
[15:20] <barry> statik: right you are
[15:20] <barry> just like rejecting branches, it is okay to say no!
[15:20] <barry> salgado: awesome, thanks
[15:20] <intellectronica> no
[15:21] <barry> intellectronica: not you though
[15:21] <barry> :)
[15:21] <salgado> EdwinGrubbs, you start tomorrow. ;)
[15:21] <barry> :)
[15:21] <barry> anything else on mentoring?
[15:21] <barry> moving on...
[15:22] <barry>  * Review process
[15:22] <barry>    * How to manage workload of reviewing (intellectronica, sinzui? gmb?)
[15:22] <barry> i apologize for not remembering who wanted to talk about this
[15:22] <barry> the floor is open (just let me know when you're done)
[15:22] <intellectronica> i think it isn't really about work load
[15:22] <intellectronica> more about work scheduling
[15:22] <intellectronica> the work load is not something we can influence, anyway
[15:23] <sinzui> I have concluded that schwuk reads 1.5 faster than I do, so he can easily over whelm me. I'm not taking reviews while he is reviewing.
[15:23] <intellectronica> the problem i identified, is that having a whole day dedicated to reviewing in the middle of the week is often too distracting for me
[15:24] <bigjools> me - late, sorry :(
[15:24] <intellectronica> it means that i have to drop whatever i was doing on the days before that, and can't respond to anything other than reviews
[15:24] <intellectronica> i was wondering if anybody has any thoughts about this, or ideas for managing it better
[15:24] <flacoste> how others who are on-call middle-of-week feels about that?
[15:25] <barry> intellectronica: would it make sense to rotate ocr days every now and then?  i find mondays are nicely segmented, but when it rains, they can be triply depressing :)
[15:25] <intellectronica> :)
[15:25] <intellectronica> yes, i can imagine mondays and firdays are a bit better
[15:25] <schwuk> Friday works well for being on call, but I can see what intellectronica is talking about.
[15:25] <bac> my problem is my on-call day spills over and eats most of the next morning, which sinzui has discussed before.
[15:26] <salgado> I prefer to have one day in which I concentrate on reviews than to do reviews for a couple hours every day
[15:26] <bac> tuesday has not been a problem
[15:26] <intellectronica> salgado: right, so it's a matter of personal preference. not really something we can generalise
[15:26] <barry> my biggest fear is that we'll burn out on doing reviews.  maybe we need a reviewer's vacation?
[15:27] <sinzui> bac: I would stop early if I felt I had too many needs-reply
[15:27] <bac> sinzui: yes.  it gets more difficult when you're working with a mentee.  i just need to manage the time better.
[15:28] <intellectronica> barry: that's a nice option, but with the current work load, it risks only increasing the work for other reviewers
[15:28] <sinzui> intellectronica: Europe is now filled with on-call reviewers, so it is possible for one to take a week off
[15:28] <bigjools> maybe we can fast-track extra reviewers?
[15:28] <statik> do we have enough reviewers now for people to be on call every two weeks instead of every week?
[15:28] <barry> i'll note that if someone is really swamped, we've done one-time skips of ocr or switch days
[15:29] <intellectronica> sinzui: well, i'm pretty much doing this today
[15:29] <gmb> I did that last week.
[15:29] <bac> statik: i don't think that is feasible yet
[15:29] <sinzui> allenap: You will be sharing a slot I think
[15:29] <allenap> sinzui: Fine with me.
[15:29]  * sinzui is looking at https://launchpad.canonical.com/OnCallReviewers
[15:29] <bac> allenap: what slot are you taking?
[15:29] <statik> bac: you're right, because of timezones
[15:30]  * intellectronica notices that he's got the only slot that doesn't have anyone before or after it
[15:30] <sinzui> intellectronica: right!
[15:30] <intellectronica> it could be that this contributes to my workload, and that other shifts are not as problematic
[15:30] <allenap> bac: I guess I could do Thursday with intellectronica.
[15:30] <barry> intellectronica: maybe allenap can share or overlap with you?
[15:31] <intellectronica> allenap: what do you say? i'd like that
[15:31] <allenap> intellectronica: Me too :) Done deal.
[15:31] <bac> allenap: or even wednesday with intellectronica
[15:31] <allenap> bac: Oh yeah, doh :)
[15:31] <sinzui> intellectronica: rockstar_: and abentley would have to emigrate to fill those AsiaPac slots
[15:31] <barry> allenap: great, please update OnCallReviewers
[15:31] <allenap> barry: Done.
[15:32] <salgado> maybe we should keep track of how many reviews are done in each term
[15:32] <barry> allenap: you're not keeping your tuesday slot though, right?
[15:32] <allenap> barry: No, I just deleted that. I'm not doing well today.
[15:32] <salgado> that could help balancing the workload
[15:33] <barry> allenap: thanks
[15:33] <barry> salgado: that came up in asiapac.  i know i keep track of my review time (using gtimelog) but we're not gathering those statistics any more
[15:34] <salgado> right, that's why I suggested number of reviews, which is way easier to track
[15:34] <salgado> maybe just filling a googledocs spreadsheet would do for now
[15:35] <barry> let's do this: if you have a suggestion for improving the review process, email me or the list.  i'll try to put together a couple of concrete proposals and we can try them out for a cycle or two and see what we like
[15:35] <salgado> I mean, it's better than nothing and we don't have to go through launchpad-reviews counting email messages
[15:36] <barry> we've got two more issues, hopefully quick ones
[15:36] <barry>  * comparing strings with `is` (stevea)
[15:36] <barry>    * overly broad `KeyError`s (stevea)
[15:37] <barry> these were things steve saw in a branch he was rc'ing and he wanted me to just mention them here so you all are aware of them
[15:37] <barry> first, nobody should ever compare strings with 'is' or 'is not'
[15:37] <barry> i think the code example was: if foo is 'bar':
[15:37] <barry> always use == and != to compare strings
[15:38] <barry> any questions about that one?
[15:38] <barry> cool
[15:39] <barry> second one is really about putting too much code in the try clause of a try/except
[15:39] <barry> there was a case where inside the try, it wasn't clear which line of code the KeyError was trying to catch, so it would be possible to mask bugs
[15:40] <barry> so watch out for too much stuff inside the try and encourage coders to use an else clause or to put the success code outside the try/except (as appropriate)
[15:40] <barry> does that make sense/
[15:40] <barry> er, sense?
[15:40]  * sinzui mutters Py 2.5
[15:40] <flacoste> how 2.5 affects this?
[15:41] <sinzui> No, not specifically. I recall see nested trys because of else and finally
[15:41] <intellectronica> and it will be great to have conditional expressions
[15:42] <barry> yes, you can get rid of most of your nested try/finally try/excepts
[15:42] <barry> intellectronica: and with statements!
[15:42] <rockstar_> sinzui, I wouldn't mind.  I've been instructed by the other half to think real estate in NZ next week.
[15:42] <barry> anyway.  that's all i have today.  we've got 3 more minutes, so i'll open the floor
[15:42] <gmb> barry: sampledata
[15:42] <barry> gmb: dang, right
[15:42] <barry> gmb: take it
[15:43] <gmb> It's on the agenda, but it's pretty self explanatory.
[15:43] <sinzui> rockstar_: really? I thought the antipodeans only accepted full reviewers.
[15:43] <gmb> If you see a branch that hangs off a DB patch can you check that the developer has updated sampledata appropriately?
[15:43]  * barry was looking at the wrong tab
[15:43] <gmb> Many of these will be fixed in the DB review anyway.
[15:43]  * sinzui notes that they traded mpt for mwhudson
[15:43] <gmb> BUt if a new field can be NULL and defaults there to then developers don't always make newsampledata
[15:44] <gmb> Which makes it hard work for the poor schmuck that does.
[15:44] <gmb> (And his reviewer, not incidentally).
[15:44] <intellectronica> right, so that needs to be part of the review 'checklist', i guess
[15:44] <gmb> Yes.
[15:44] <gmb> barry: I'll update that.
[15:45] <flacoste> it could even be automated
[15:45] <barry> gmb: thanks
[15:45] <flacoste> make newsampledata and no changes should appear
[15:45] <flacoste> with the previous one
[15:45] <gmb> flacoste: I'm not sure I understand you.
[15:45] <salgado> yeah, that'd do a nice test
[15:45] <barry> flacoste: as part of make lint?
[15:45] <flacoste> yes
[15:45] <flacoste> or another test by review-submit
[15:46] <gmb> It'd be nice to make it part of make lint.
[15:46] <sinzui> flacoste: That's a clever idea
[15:46] <barry> +1
[15:46] <barry> flacoste: wanna take a crack at it?
[15:46] <BjornT> i don't think we should enforce creating new sample data when submitting the branch for review
[15:46]  * flacoste looks at sinzui - another good reason to replace jamesh lint
[15:47] <BjornT> if it's not needed, it will produce a much larger diff, and the branch will be prone for conflicts
[15:47] <gmb> Why do we need to replace jamesh?
[15:47] <gmb> Oh, wait.
[15:47] <gmb> screen was being silly.
[15:47] <BjornT> much better to generate the sample data just before submitting the branch to pqm
[15:47] <gmb> Carry on.
[15:47] <flacoste> BjornT: problem is that we delay the price
[15:47] <flacoste> BjornT: that's also good
[15:47] <flacoste> i thought you were suggesting not updating sampledata at all
[15:47] <flacoste> unless absolutely needed
[15:48] <salgado> if that's what we want we can make the test suggested by flacoste part of our test suite
[15:48] <rockstar_> sinzui, I don't really get that joke...  :(
[15:49] <barry> okay, sorry, we're 3 minutes over now.  let's think about the sampledata test and i'll put it on the list for next week
[15:49] <barry> #endmeeting
[15:49] <barry> thanks everyone!
[15:49] <statik> thanks everybuddy
[15:49] <flacoste> thanks barry
[15:49] <intellectronica> thanks barry
[15:49] <barry> (everyone except mootbot)
[15:49] <sinzui> rockstar_: the only person who was ANZ not a review was mpt, He moved to UK. mwhudson who became a reviewer moved to NZ
[15:50] <rockstar_> Ah, I see.
[15:50] <sinzui> rockstar_: The antipodeans seem to prefer, for lack of a better word, 'rockstars'
[15:50]  * rockstar_ goes to learn the reviewer secret handshakes...  :)
[15:50] <Hobbsee> rockstar_: don't forget to sacrifice the goat first.
[15:50] <rockstar_> sinzui, perfect!  The only problem now is that I've only been around for a week and a half now.
[15:50] <sinzui> I think ibex is the animal of choice
[15:51] <Hobbsee> sinzui: oh, i thought we were keeping them for ubuntu sacrifices.
[15:52] <sinzui> Hobbsee: We like Ubunut
[15:52] <sinzui> Hobbsee: We like Ubuntu
[15:52] <rockstar_> sinzui, our move would be solely based upon U.S. politics.  :)
[15:52] <Hobbsee> sinzui: so you should sacrifice things to make it work properly, no?
[15:52] <Hobbsee> apparently we're out of zebras.
[15:53] <rockstar_> Shit!  Who do we talk to in order to get more?
[15:54] <sinzui> rockstar_: I've been thinking on Montreal for similar reasons
[15:54] <rockstar_> sinzui, you're in AsiaPac?
[15:56] <sinzui> rockstar_: No. I loved living in Australia as a child. I work on the Foundations team so I should be stay on the East coast of North America, Caribbean, or South American
[15:57] <rockstar_> Oh crap, I would totall be down in the Carribean...
[15:58] <rockstar_> I lived there for a while.  I'd think about going back, but that'd be a step in the wrong direction...
[15:58] <sinzui> rockstar_: Consider Hawaii. Fiji has some bad politics
[15:58] <rockstar_> Hawaii is still the U.S.
[15:58] <sinzui> Half is owned by Nippon
[15:59] <rockstar_> Hawaii?
[15:59] <sinzui> yeah? 50% of land and business is owned by Japanese investors I believe
[16:00] <rockstar_> So it's not U.S. soil>
[16:00]  * rockstar_ grumbles and the things the U.S. "fails to mention" in public school...
[16:01] <sinzui> rockstar_: I learned to study a nation's history in another nation.
[16:02] <rockstar_> sinzui, good idea.  Living in Texas 'til I was 11, I only ever learned Texas history.  No U.S. history even.
[16:02] <sinzui> rockstar_: France has little to say about Napoleon. The US does not mentioned Native Americans and genocide very often
[16:02] <sinzui> rockstar_: Texas is it's own state of mind.
[16:03] <rockstar_> Yea, we killed a lot of Mexicans...
[16:03] <sinzui> And stole a lot of land
[16:03]  * rockstar_ redacts the "we" and adds "they"
[16:06] <sinzui> rockstar_: Australia just officially apologised for taking generations of children from their families. NZ is in rights disputes with the Maori. There is a lot of crime to redact 'we' with 'they'
[16:08] <rockstar_> sinzui, well, problems are problems.  It's more about the "looking forward" solution.  At least the Australians apologized...
[16:09] <sinzui> rockstar_: I agree.