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zul@schedule now04:49
calcdoko: did you mean there is a current thread on dev@go-oo about modularization?06:14
asachi all06:53
cjwatsonguten Morgen06:55
dholbachhiya :)06:55
james_whi all06:58
pittiGood morning06:59
cjwatsonHi all; welcome to those of you visiting for 8.04.1 discussions07:01
pittihardy is our rock!07:01
cjwatsonAs I mentioned by mail, the main thing I want to go through in this platform meeting is 8.04.1, though I have other odds and ends for afterwards07:02
ogracjwatson, i just sent you another agenda item07:02
dokogood morning07:03
cjwatsonMost of you will already know that we're assigning more resources than usual to the point release this time round, and this will consist of a virtual team of about ten people under the direction of slangasek07:03
cjwatsonSteve was on well-deserved holiday yesterday after the 8.04 release, so I don't know if he's had a chance to catch up and figure out what's going on with stable yet :-)07:04
pittiah, that was in fact one of my main pressing questions: slangasek is now officially part of the SRU team, so I can bother him to review my own SRU uploads?07:04
cjwatsonFrom platform, so far, evand and about half of asac will be on the 8.04.1 team; I'm still sniffing around for one more07:05
slangasekI've managed to process my mail with difficulty today - looks like there are one or two bugs to keep us busy for the point release07:05
StevenKHeh, "half of asac"07:05
pittifrom desktop, it's seb128 and me (so far)07:05
ograno half people there ?07:05
slangasekpitti: my understanding is that I'm to be officially part of the SRU team, but I'm not a member of the launchpad team yet07:05
zulfrom the server team its me and half of kirkland07:05
pittislangasek: I don't think the team comes with any extra power, it's just the bug mail I think07:06
* cjwatson looks at https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+milestone/ubuntu-8.04.1 - "144 bugs targeted"07:06
pittislangasek: but someone should add you indeed07:06
cjwatsonslangasek: *clicketyclick* fixed07:06
* calc will be putting out a new OOo, but probably not working on other stuff unless asked07:06
slangasekcjwatson: thanks :)07:06
cjwatsonFirefox 3's non-final state is one of the things I've seen in pretty much every 8.04 review so far, hence asac07:07
cjwatson(and we knew it was going to be that way, of course)07:07
* slangasek nods07:07
ograyeah, there are also massive threads about it on ubuntu-users07:07
ograseems some people have problems running 2 and 3 in parallel07:08
cjwatsonThe target for package uploads being complete for 8.04.1 is about the first week of June, with the release itself then being early July, so plenty of time for testing and certification07:08
asacogra: nobody claimed that thats really supported ;)07:08
cjwatsonAre there any major issues people would like to raise that they think ought to be hoovered up for 8.04.1?07:08
ograasac, right and -users is a madhouse anyway07:09
pitticjwatson: do you know whether we'll get any list of 'hardware that should work with .1' again?07:09
ogracjwatson, sound support07:09
loolIt's not a major issue, but I need to mention the UME situation07:09
slangasekI think all the major issues I would raise are conveniently already milestoned ;)07:09
pittipulseaudio's stuttering is driving me crazy, but it might just be me07:09
slangaseksound support is a big one that needs some attention07:09
cjwatsonlool: that is on my list, I'll get to it in a moment07:09
seb128cjwatson: gvfs smb issues07:09
loolperfect, thanks07:09
ograpitti, since crimsun dropped the ball we're pretty much floating wrt sound07:10
cjwatsonpitti: I'm not sure, I'll check07:10
zulcjwatson: onn the server side we have a list of things we would like to see fixed or tweaked07:10
slangasekthe new kernel scheduler works for most cases, but in the cases where it doesn't it really doesn't - I think the kernel team already has that in 'fix committed' now07:10
ogranobody is *really deep* into it atm07:10
TheMusoCrimsun and I are looking at putting pulseaudio through dmix at this point, and testing is giving different results for different people from what I can gather.07:10
loolslangasek: Is that the commit in 2.6.25 by Ingo?07:10
cjwatsonslangasek: cgroups?07:10
ograTheMuso, do you know what redhat are doing wrt the pulse setup ?07:11
slangasekzul: can you please let me know if there are any of those bugs which aren't a subset of the 8.04.1 milestoned set?07:11
slangasekcjwatson: yes07:11
slangaseklool: no07:11
cjwatsonseb128: that's bug 207072?07:11
zulslangasek: sure I can cross reference it07:11
TheMusoogra: Using direct hardware access afaik. I plan on installing FC9 to have a closer look.07:11
pittione highly annoying thing is that gnome-screensaver doesn't accept your password after resuming; not sure if that's already milestoned07:11
slangasekI need to fix my own brown paper bag regarding pam logging :P07:11
slangasekpitti: hrm?  I haven't seen this at all07:12
loolMe neither07:12
TheMusoogra: Not even sure what Fedora users do about flash and pulse, but I guess we won't really know till FC9 final is out.07:12
ograpitti, i heard about keyboard issues after resume, that might be related07:12
seb128cjwatson: bug #209520 bug #223372 bug #20707207:12
bryceI've been looking at doing some quirk and pci id updates for various X drivers, and I think we might have a few more fixes for xrandr gui from redhat and suse that could be worth pulling in07:12
pittislangasek: hm, happens on both my boxes (freshly installed final), so I didn't think it was a local glitch07:12
seb128right, fixing the xrandr capplet would be nice too, because I'm not sure it works for lot of people right now07:13
pittianyway, it's on my list to track this down07:13
ograTheMuso, they go for libflashsupport07:13
slangasekpitti: ok, please keep me informed; I would have expected a bug like that to have come to my attention by now if it were widespread, but even if it's not that sounds like a fairly important issue to try to pin down07:13
TheMusoogra: Yeah so I guess ti comes down to how pulse/flashsupport behave for Fedora users.07:14
pittislangasek: ok, I'll first get it filed, I think :)07:14
ograTheMuso, but use nspluginwrapper all over the place, so it doesnt crash their browser07:14
ogra(people will just reload the page)07:14
bryceseb128: cloned (e.g. projector) should be fine for most people; dual-head layouts still needs work.  Not sure we're going to get that 100% though, but could be polished better.07:14
seb128bryce: ok, I might just have no luck with my setup then07:15
slangasekbryce: one of the reviews of hardy mentioned that the xrandr gui doesn't resize if you use it to scale the screen down to a size smaller than the window, making it difficult to make further changes; do you know if there's a bug about this?07:15
cjwatsonI've asked TheMuso to be the third platform guy for .1, so hopefully he can spend some time smoothing out sound07:15
calcyea i saw that for low resolution displays07:15
ograbryce, what about single head layouts that detect a tv or external VGA ? seems the external is always on (whch forces a floating gdm of 1024x768 on a 1280x800 screen here for me)07:15
seb128slangasek: there is a bug yes, I've been commenting on yet yesterday, no obvious way to solve the "dialog don't fit on 800x600 issues"07:16
slangasekseb128: well, there's a very large graphic that ought to be scalable downwards, in principle :)07:16
bryceslangasek: right, we actually did get it to fit in that resolution, but a button got added in at the last moment that bumped us up just enough.  That was a pretty non-standard resolution (740x400 iirc) so I don't know if it's worth SRUing, but I talked about it with james.07:16
cjwatsonso I make the .1 team as follows: slangasek, asac, evand, TheMuso, pitti, seb128, bdmurray, ogasawara__, pedro, kirkland, zul07:16
james_wI thought it was ok in 800x600, it was just x400 that didn't work.07:16
ograbryce, i ave seen that on different machines now, switching the external output off via xrandr fixes it though07:16
ArneGoetjecan we put #215755 on the .1 list, please?07:16
bryceI think we should re-test on 640x480 though.  I *think* it should still fit ok, but if not maybe we should just shift where the button is located07:17
TheMusoWhen is Fedora 9 due?07:17
seb128james_w: might be, I use 800x600 as value we get bugs about app not fiting correctly on that usually07:18
cjwatsonArneGoetje: I've milestoned it speculatively, though it's outside the usual SRU criteria; I can see why it would be needed though07:18
ograTheMuso, may 15th i think07:18
asacTheMuso: iirc 13th may07:18
ArneGoetjecjwatson: thanks07:18
asacok ;)07:18
ograor what asac says :)07:18
calc14 days apparently07:18
calcwhenever that is :)07:18
TheMusoOk thanks.07:18
bryceogra: the TV out interference bugs are usually easily quirkable; pass me bug ids and they should be easy to do that way07:18
calcyea may 1307:18
cjwatsonlool mentioned mobile as an issue, and this was also on my list07:18
slangasekbryce: ah, right, I can't see much reason to worry about resolutions below 640x480; but then, the GUI should therefore probably not /expose/ resolutions lower than that if it's going to break the GUI itself :)07:18
cjwatsonthe mobile team is going to be releasing their hardy-based product somewhat later than hardy itself; looking at late May at the moment, I understand07:19
loolWe need to provide security support on it, and it's currently based on hardy + ume ppa07:19
ograbryce, will do ... i added "/usr/bin/xrandr --output TV --off" to a gdm Init file for now, works around it as well :)07:19
seb128slangasek: note that you have to confirm the choice, so people shooting themself in the foot are really asking for it there07:19
cjwatsonand they have raised it as an issue that their process is very complicated at the moment, involving PPAs and other weirdness all over the show07:19
cjwatsonI'd like the .1 team to consider whether parts of this can be incorporated in the updates for .107:20
loolTo be in the sweet spot of maintainability, we would be happy with having everything in hardy, but some of our changes remain ppa only at the moment07:20
cjwatsonperhaps at least those packages currently in the ume ppa that are also important in the regular archive07:20
calcapparently opensuse will have pulseaudio as well but isn't slated for release until mid june07:20
cjwatsonI think there may be cases where a merge into the main archive just isn't appropriate yet07:20
TheMusocalc: Ok another one I need to check out, thanks.,07:21
loolThat's true, it's certainly hard to reconcile the proposed changes with SRU requirements07:21
loolThe changes might be lpia specific07:21
calcTheMuso: http://en.opensuse.org/Roadmap07:21
loolOr might be in purely mobile packages07:21
TheMusocalc: ok thanks again.07:21
slangasekright, I was about to say, if UME is still in the development run-up to a release, there are likely to be changes that don't really fit the SRU policy07:22
loolI think these are not disruptive to the normal behavior of hardy, but they do not fit in the allowed updates scenarii07:22
cjwatsonat the very least, it'd make sense to consider cases where packages are being updated anyway07:22
cjwatsonif changes are lpia-specific, the major risk is from changing the package *at all*, not so much from the diff itself07:22
slangasekand navigating the SRU requirements might be more of a hassle than using the PPA07:22
* slangasek nods07:22
loolI was hoping that some easy changes would be mergeable as trivial mobile bug fixes, but it's going to be administrativa for sure07:23
loolOne issue with the SRU process is that it needs the reviewer to be able to test the package07:23
cjwatsonlool: perhaps somebody could correlate the list of changes you have against the 8.04.1 milestone, and look for things that could slot in07:24
loolBut with UME, we don't have a completely virtual solution (yet) and the Xephyr solution is a pain to setup07:24
cjwatsonis there wiki documentation on the setup?07:24
cjwatsonat least then it could be done if need be ...07:24
pittilool: but there should be at least one other person with that hw in the team?07:24
StevenKBryce, too07:25
loolcjwatson: Ok; we didn't use the milestone too much yet; what needs to be done is to look one by one at the packages we carry in the ppa and see whether the changes can be merged into hardy07:25
pittilool: traditionally, hw specific bugs are verified by the bug reporter/subscribers, and we collect a few of them07:25
slangaseklool: the SRU process doesn't require the reviewer to be on the sru team or an archive admin, though?  so presumably you'd have people within your own team who could do the validation07:25
loolpitti: Yes07:25
cjwatsonlool: right, I mean packages that are already going to be updated for .1 for other (non-mobile) reasons07:25
loolSure, we could do it within UME; I thought the sru team or archive admins had to be able to check, but UME testing is fine07:26
pittiTBH, that makes even more sense than ~sru-verification, since they just test a particular TEST CASE:, and not the entire package in production conditions)07:26
loolcjwatson: Yup, I understood07:26
cjwatsonok, further .1 meetings07:26
loolcjwatson: So should we check -proposed regularly to see whether a package is different in -updates and hardy?07:26
cjwatsonit seems like it'll be valuable for the .1 team to occasionally sync up, but you're in the usual variety of timezones07:27
cjwatsonone suggestion was to have shift meetings, so that at least there's some coordination even if it isn't whole-team07:27
cjwatsonslangasek: but I'll leave you to carry this forward07:27
cjwatsonlool: I think you guys may be too busy to poll; perhaps you can arrange some kind of notification system07:28
loolAre -proposed uploads sent to some -changes list?07:28
* ogra thinks it should be responsibility of the uploader to take care 07:29
ogra(for notification that is)07:29
loolI see them in hardy-changes I think07:29
slangasekcjwatson: hmm, do we have any scheduling tools available internally to make this easier? :)07:29
loolI guess I'll tell people to subscribe with a filter to that list so that they can see likely SRU candidates07:29
slangasekogra: the uploader won't necessarily know that the UME team cares about the package in question07:29
ogralool, but they might have to sit in -proposed for weeks07:30
cjwatsonlool: hardy-changes, yes07:30
ograsladen, oh, right07:30
pittilool: yes, they go to -changes normally07:30
ograerr s/sladen/slangasek, sorry07:30
cjwatsonslangasek: not a lot, unfortunately; when I've done it I drew out a big list of timezones and people so that I could do it by eye07:30
StevenKslangasek: I'd suggest you ask davidm too, since we have this issue with the mobile team07:31
slangasekStevenK: thanks, I'll ask him07:32
loolWhere will the 8.04.1 sync meetings be announced?07:32
slangasekI'll make sure they get on the fridge07:32
loolJust in case, it might be best to include me in the list of 8.04.1 people if that's the base for an email group or something07:34
cjwatsonso on second thoughts, the other agenda item I had was just for one person, so I won't bore the whole team with it07:34
cjwatsonany other business?07:34
slangaseklool: I'm happy to do that to keep you in the loop07:34
loolcjwatson: thanks for the meeting!  have a nice day07:35
kirklandcool, g'night!07:35
pittithanks everyone07:35
TheMusoThanks folks.07:35
seb128thanks guys07:36
StevenKthanks guys07:36
james_wthanks all07:36
slangasekthanks (i.e., "no other business" :)07:36
cjwatsonok then, adjourned; thanks all, good luck with .1!07:37
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emgent@schedule rome17:13
emgentargh ubot..17:13
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stgraberhey heno19:57
* ogasawara__ waves19:57
henohey all19:58
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henomeh, no bot20:00
henook, agenda at https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/Meetings20:00
henoTOPIC - Setting up virtual images of standard upstream software for upstream bug testing20:01
henoI played a bit with this yesterday in vbox20:01
henobasically installed Debian testing20:02
henoanyone know how much debian changs Gnome and OOo?20:02
henothey obviously rebrand firefox20:02
stgraberI don't think they patch gnome a lot, you probably can take a quick look at their .diff.gz though20:03
henothe idea here is to make it easy to teat whether a bug exists upstream20:03
pedro_there's no a good way to determine that i think20:03
pedro_that's why i prefer to use jhbuild of trunk instead20:03
henoSo: is offering Debian unstable images a good enough way to do this or should it be pure upstream?20:04
henolatest head builds20:05
Crazyguyif possible, latest gnome build definitely20:05
bdmurrayI think pure upstream for OOo, firefox, and Gnome.  Having a debian image would be good for a lot of bugs though.20:05
pedro_yep it would be good for all the other software we have20:06
davmor2I think if you asking general public to test in vm then debian unstable is probably a good call20:06
henofirefox and OOo are fairly easy to install from upstream binaries I guess, what about Gnome?20:06
pedro_is a bit complicated but not a lot20:07
pedro_and it will use a lot of space20:07
henook, so perhaps we can start with Debian unstable and see if we run into issues of it not being pure upstream enough20:07
pedro_~750 only of source code20:08
henoIt would be great if someone could take this on, but we'll get to that on agenda item 320:09
henoTOPIC - Creating a test-control team to lead various test efforts with similar privileges as bug-control20:09
pedro_btw does debian have something like patches.ubuntu.com?20:09
henoThis would include people who can admin the test tracker, who generally edit test cases, etc.20:10
henoperhaps also set priority of bugs20:11
henoit would be a restricted team like bug-control20:11
henopedro_: don't know20:11
henothere is the ubuntu->debian project, utnubu or something20:12
pedro_ok will try to see what can i find out there, thanks20:12
henothoughts on test-control? do we need this? will it be useful?20:13
ogasawaraheno: is there a list of initial members for the test-control team that don't already have the above mentioned privileges?20:13
henodavmor2: are you in bug-control?20:14
davmor2No bug-squad20:14
henothere are the Xubuntu and Studio test people also20:14
bdmurraythe test cases are just in the wiki though at the moment right?20:15
henoit's also a way to encourage people to do ore structured testing20:15
cgreganI think a defined group to manage these type of actions is a good idea. Especially as we grow. That being said, it would have to be managed so it did not become a bottleneck20:15
stgraberWon't that require to have that test-control team as a member of bug-control ?20:15
henoand learn more advanced techniques20:15
henolike setting up re-flashable disk images20:15
henobdmurray: right, I'm not suggesting we limit access to editing them, just that it would be a typical task for team members20:16
james_wpedro_: no, they don't have patches.debian.org, but if they use a patch system patches.ubuntu.com can provide the individual patches in http://patches.ubuntu.com/by-release/extracted/debian/ which is probably quite useful for gnome20:17
bdmurraystgraber: for setting bug priority yes and I think the bug-control team requires some special knowledge that testers might not need20:17
henostgraber: why, to set importance?20:17
stgraberheno: yep20:17
pedro_james_w: great, thanks!20:17
bdmurrayI think setting bug importance could wait a while20:18
henowe can leave the right to set importance out, but it should be a restricted team20:18
zul@schedule montreal20:19
stgraberwell, it has to be restricted, otherwise you are just describing our existing : "Ubuntu Testing Team" :)20:19
stgraber(that's currently AFAIK not used at all)20:19
henothe test tracker could get the info from LP in the future20:19
henostgraber: right :)20:19
henoSounds like we should define the purpose and scope a bit better before proceeding20:20
henoI'll take it to the mailing list20:20
henoTOPIC - Additional QA team roles20:21
davmor2I think it is important for people to have a sense of motivation.  You see now across the whole spectrum of teams.  You get the base level team that anyone can join and then the elite who help the other and have more privileges20:21
henosee https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QATeam/Roles for my proposal20:21
stgraberI'm all for a restricted team showing that its members have been actively helping testing Ubuntu20:21
stgraberthe "Ubuntu Testing Team" was useless mainly because it was opened to everyone and didn't give any additional privilege.20:22
stgraberdavmor2: +120:23
henook, so we are agreed on the principle, just need to settle the details :)20:24
davmor2sounds good :)20:24
henodavmor2's point is really also the motivation for the QA roles20:24
henodefining clear areas of responsibility that we ask people step up to20:25
pedro_mmm we need a KDE/Kubuntu guy20:25
* pedro_ will ask yuriy about that20:25
davmor2heno: I think in the roles you missed asac for FF20:25
stgraberthat Roles page looks really good, will be useful to redirect people asking who to contact regarding a specific area of QA20:25
davmor2he tends to sit in on the testing channel anyway20:26
bdmurrayWhen I heard role I was thinking bug forwarder, bug triager, etc...20:26
henoI should link to the bug roles page - there is some overlap20:26
stgraberInstaller bug contact would also be a good thing20:26
stgraberfor debian-installer/ubiquity issues20:26
henobdmurray: should we use a different term?20:27
bdmurrayNothing great comes to mind other than "lead"?20:27
asaci would love to give away the "mozilla bug role" to someone else who is more dedicated to bug work.20:27
bdmurrayWell, that's not great20:27
henoI'm sure asac would love someone *else* to step up as FF QA lead :)20:27
asac \o/20:27
asaci can provide the input and procedures, but doing the QA of my own stuff doesn't sound right20:28
davmor2stgraber: that would be evand20:28
henodavmor2: but as with asac he is the lead dev20:28
henothe QA lead should be a different person20:28
henoshall we decide on these one at a time and move them up to open positions/roles?20:30
davmor2Well myself evand and ´╗┐ xivulon (´╗┐Agostino Russo) are all on pretty good terms, so I can probably take that on too.20:30
henodavmor2: ok, just note that we are trying to involve new people with this, so don't take them all :)20:31
henoSo, in order:20:31
henoKernel bug first-response20:32
henoogasawara: please add whatever further role description is needed20:32
ogasawarasounds good to me :)  I'll beef up the description more20:32
henothe more detail about what it involves the better20:32
* ogasawara nods20:33
heno* Test VM maintainer20:33
henobased on debian I think we decided20:33
henoI can flesh that one out20:34
stgraberwhat about some kind of Forum <-> QA team contact ?20:34
henowhat would they do?20:35
henosounds useful, but specifically20:36
stgrabermake sure people reporting bugs or test results on the forums are either redirected to the proper ressource (Launchpad) or at least forward the bug/result to the right developper or open a report himself20:36
henothat sounds concrete enough20:37
henoand could request testing in the forum when needed20:37
stgraberyes, that too20:37
henostgraber: will you flesh out the description for that?20:38
heno* Derivatives test coordinator (Xubuntu, Ubuntu Studio, etc.)20:39
henoperhaps we should hold off on the derivatives one as ISO testing season is now over20:39
henowe can't post them all at once anyway20:40
stgraberoh, about that, who's the project leader for Mythbuntu ?20:40
henoAnd let's add FF and perhaps OOo20:40
stgraberwe don't have them on the tracker and I think it'd be a good idea to add them20:40
bdmurrayasac: are getting Firefox 3.0 bugs upstream important now? and how time sensitive is it?20:40
bdmurraystgraber: superm120:40
stgraberbdmurray: thanks, I'll ping him later20:41
henothe installer can perhaps wait as it's out of season now :)20:41
henolet's aim to have 2-3 of these posted before next week's meeting20:43
henoany other topics today?20:43
stgraberWe can probably start with : test-vm, kernel bug and forum20:44
stgraberthose aren't linked to ISO testing20:44
stgraber(not directly)20:45
davmor2still no bot :)20:46
henoYeah, I'm still compelled to write that though :)20:46
stgraberyeah, 15min break before the next meeting :)20:47
asacbdmurray: sorry. have to run. we can talk about that tomorrow (well tomorrow is publich holiday here, so maybe friday)20:52
bdmurrayasac: okay, you know where to find me.20:52
* ogra jumps at the stage 21:00
ograanyone here ?21:00
ograso its you and me :)21:02
stgraberLaserjock was in #ubuntu-devel 3 minutes ago21:02
ogralets wait another 5 min or so21:02
ograyeah, saw him, but he said he has another meeting as well21:02
stgraberah, right21:02
ograso i''ll paste my list of proposed specs i would like to work on in intrepid, note that none of them are accepted or even put up on blueprints yet21:04
ogracolin has to nod off what i'm allowed to work on and we didnt have a meeting about it yet, so take that list with a grin of salt21:04
LaserJockit would be nice to have a set of community  goals as well, IMO21:05
* ogra repeats for the recently joined21:05
* nealmcb didn't know salt could grin, but likes the idea :-)21:05
ogra<ogra> so i''ll paste my list of proposed specs i would like to work on in intrepid, note that none of them are accepted or even put up on blueprints yet21:05
ogra<ogra> colin has to nod off what i'm allowed to work on and we didnt have a meeting about it yet, so take that list with a grin of salt21:05
* ogra resisted the urge to fix the typo :)21:06
ogra* USB Key images by default (dd'able casper images for usb keys)21:06
ogra* WLAN Mesh networking support out of the box21:06
ogra* Easy touchscreen calibration21:06
ogra* Initramfs profiling by default21:06
ogra* Lightweight kernel flavor (core kernel flavour for minimal ram usage)21:06
ogra* edubuntu menu completion ui21:06
ogra* local content filter (finish willowng parental control, ufw integration)21:06
ogra* ltsp sound cleanup (adapt full pulseaudio support even for capturing)21:06
ogra* ltsp localapps (finish the proof of concept setup from gutsy)21:06
ografor edubuntu mst intresting is the menu stuff and willowng finishing i guess21:07
stgraberlooks like a CMPC todolist if you remove the 2 ltsp items :)21:07
ograwillow and edubuntu-menus eare no cmpc items21:07
ograand the others rather fall into general subnotebook and ressource reduction realm :)21:08
ograi surely dont want to have another image like i have to maintain now for cmpc21:08
ograthey will stick on me eternally, i'd like to avoid that21:08
ograLaserJock, so for the edubuntu-menu completion i thought about looking for a sceduling app as well to integrate with that21:09
stgraber22:04 < LaserJock> yeah, I'm running to my advisor meeting21:10
stgraber22:04 < LaserJock> I'll be back hopefully soon21:10
stgraberogra: ^21:10
ograwell, willowng has lots of potential but misses the final bits21:10
ograstgraber, yup, saw that21:10
ograi'D also like to look into FF addons21:11
ografor content stuff21:11
stgraberok, from my side. My current planned changes for Intrepid are :21:12
ograstgraber, oh, and the touchscreen spec is totally selfish ... i want my touchscreen to work on the new lappie ;)21:12
stgraber * Integration of avahi with iTalc (already done in PPA)21:12
ogranot cmpc or edu related :)21:12
stgraber * UI for key export/import21:12
stgraber * Easy way to add it to the LTSP chroot (some users asked for that)21:13
stgraberand stability fixes21:13
ograwhat exactly ?21:13
stgrabersome users want ica to be running on the thin clients instead of the server21:13
stgraberso it uses less bandwidth and CPU power21:13
ograthat will actually use more bandwith21:13
stgraberthe problem is that we'd need to add QT4, dbus and avahi21:13
stgrabernope, the X traffic from a full screen demo eats more bandwidth than the VNC stream then uncompressed on the client21:14
ograright, in this direction thats true21:14
ogrageneral vnc will eat more than just running in loopback mode21:14
stgraberI don't want that to be a default at all as I know some people can't afford dbus+avahi+qt in their chroot21:15
ograanyway, we dont need to write the spec now :)21:15
stgraberso that'd be a well documented option21:15
ograwell, i think we will have dbus and hal in the chroot21:16
ograqt only eats some space but wont do any harm to have21:16
ograavahi is the only thing that makes me worried  bit21:16
stgraberok, so we only have avahi left :)21:16
ogra*a bit21:16
stgraberthis one is useful for the classroom generation stuff21:17
ograbut we should add a swich to the initscript or so21:17
ograso you can start it by a lts.conf option21:17
stgraberI plan to change my current launcher script to detect if we have ICA running on the client and only start it in gnome if we don't21:18
stgraberso having a switch in lts.conf will work just well21:18
ogralets spec that precisely in prague :)21:18
ograi'm not sure how far i will get with localapps21:19
ograbut i want something basic at least which seems to be easy to achieve21:19
stgraberI guess we'll need some kind of localapps support, it's been announced for a long time :)21:19
ograscotties xrexecd is in the code already21:19
ograwhere ?21:20
ograi never announced any localapps support21:20
stgraberIRC mainly, every-time someone is asking for it :)21:20
ograwell, i usually say that there is a proof of concept but nobody working on it21:20
stgraberso currently the only problem to solve is the filesystem and printer stuff (with firefox for instance)21:21
ograshorly after boston when scott was still around that might have been different out of the thrill :)21:21
stgraberso what's missing ?21:21
ograthe main issue for proper integration is transparently replacing menu items21:21
ograand gconf21:22
ografs stuff should be easy21:22
ograi know scottie has ideas and probably even some code i can call him and ask for stuff i guess21:22
ograprinter shouldnt be a big issue either21:23
ograi'd like to start jetpipe from udev if possible21:23
ograthat wrapper can also set up a local printer the local app sees21:23
ogra(for the same device)21:24
stgraberand use CUPS to see the server's printers ?21:24
ograanyway, lets not go to much into detail21:24
ograIPP or so21:24
stgraberok, so the main problem is to hack some gnome code to have a list of .desktop to start as localapps instead of running them on the server21:25
ograwell, i'D like to have it automated somehow21:26
ograldm can detect what X apps are installed in the chroot21:26
ograso an rc.d script can dynamically copy launchers into an overlay dir where it modifies them21:27
ograthat goes hand in hand with the edubuntu-menus stuff21:27
ogragconf will be trickier21:28
ograthe daemon runs in the session and not where the app sits21:28
ograi'm running out of topics :)21:30
* ogra waits for LaserJock to re appear 21:30
ograi sadly havent seen any specs from rich yet21:31
ograso i cant tell anytig abut community21:31
ograi know he wants finer grained categories for the addon21:31
ograbut thats the only thing i roughtly know about21:32
ograjohnny, any lans for sabayon in the next six months ?21:33
johnnyi am not sure atm, i'm looking to get a *REAL* job21:33
ograor does the gentoo ltsp5 port keep you to busy ? :)21:33
johnnyi'm about done with that as much as i can21:33
johnnythe rest should be easy21:34
johnnyas long as i get somebody else to handle the initramfs situation :)21:34
* ogra points johnny to http://www.ubuntu.com/employment21:34
johnnythe page has been updated, the first tme you pointed me to it, they were only looking for mobile21:35
johnnythe positions listed still perhaps might be beyond my ability tho21:35
ograyou wont know if you dont try :)21:35
johnnyother than the stable release engineer21:35
johnnyi'm updating my resume atm actually21:36
ograwell, given that i can discuss the menu stuff with LaserJock directly off meeting and given that i mainly hold monologues ....21:37
ograany other business ?21:38
stgrabernot from me21:38
ogragoing once21:38
ogragoing twice21:38
ograadjourned :)21:38
ograthanks all21:38
* ogra points LaserJock to #edubuntu for further edubuntu-menu discussions21:39
* owh yawns.21:57
jdstrand \o21:58
sorenKeybuk: Is that a guy who's fallen over?21:59
sorenKeybuk: Two legs up in the air and possibly missing an arm..21:59
sorenThat looks painful22:00
jdstrand(there's another arm for you soren)22:00
owhHeh, jdstrand, that's the emergency recovery position :)22:00
jdstrandthat looks like a face-plant22:00
mathiazAllright guys - let's get started22:00
jdstrand'oh no, I fell off my skateboard...'22:00
sorenAw... We were having so much fun!22:01
mathiazsoren: wait for UDS22:01
zulno bot22:01
sorenOh, Seveas took mootbot with him, too?22:02
mathiazoh well...22:02
nealmcbyoga on irc!!22:02
mathiazToday's Agenda: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerTeam/Meeting22:02
mathiazNot a lot on it22:03
mathiazhow is everyone recovering from the release last week ?22:03
nealmcbthe mirrors and other servers seem less overwhelmed now....22:04
nealmcbI hope they push bittorrent more next time in the release notes etc22:04
mathiazThere has been a steady flow of bug reported22:04
mathiazI've looked through the samba ones22:05
zulmathiaz: ucf?22:05
mathiazand it seems some people don't know how-to handle correctly questions asked by ucf22:05
mathiazand this whole configuration file management22:05
nxvlthe worst problem with server isn't that people download iso's22:06
mathiazthe other main issues are cannot access windows shares - mainly due to gvfs22:06
nxvlis that they update using update-manager/apt/aptitude22:06
jdstrandmathiaz: what is going on with that gvfs/samba/AD issue?22:06
nxvland that brings the mirrors down22:06
mathiazzul: have you seen other recurring bugs in server related software ?22:06
mathiazjdstrand: which issue are you refering to ?22:07
jdstrandmathiaz: I haven't been following too closely, but heard of gvfs not being able to access AD and samba22:07
zulmathiaz: just some nut ones and apache2 dangling symlink for index.html22:08
jdstrandseemed it was pushed to gnome...22:08
mathiazjdstrand: yeah - something like that - that's mainly a problem with gvfs22:08
mathiazI discussed these bugs with seb128 and we aggreed to ask the reporters to test with smbclient22:09
mathiazIf it works with smbclient it's a problem with gvfs/nautilus-share and the bug should reassigned to the correct packages22:09
* jdstrand nods22:10
mathiazIf smbclient doesn't work then it's a problem with samba22:10
zulmathiaz: that natutilius/smbclient one where you cant go 140 directories deep is interesting22:10
mathiazzul: we'll have to do more debugging on that one.22:11
mathiazSo that's all that is on my radar for the post-release bugs22:11
zulmathiaz: yep22:11
owhzul isn't that just a maximum path length of 255 chars?22:11
mathiazsoren: how is it going on the virtualization front ?22:11
sorenI've still got some fallout I need to get on top of.22:11
zulowh: probably22:11
owhzul: Which bug number?22:11
sorenThere's one update coming up in the next kernel update.22:11
jdstrandsoren rocked the 'soft lockup' bug22:12
sorenI'm looking into a few other things and picking stuff that's suitable for SRU's.22:12
jdstrand(that's the one)22:12
mathiazsoren: great !22:12
mathiazzul: how do you track SRU bugs ?22:12
mathiazzul: did you come up with a specific plan ?22:13
mathiazFor information, zul will be the contact point for SRU on hardy for 8.04.122:13
sorenmathiaz: I'm waiting to be told how to do it.22:13
zulIt would be nice if people would review that and add to the list22:14
sorenLast I heard it was a major cause of discussion in certain places.22:14
mathiazsoren: right22:14
mathiazThat's why zul is looking after this in the server team22:14
sorenOh. Er... Right, I thought you were asking me :)22:14
sorenmy bad.22:15
mathiazsoren: I guess you should use zul wiki page to keep track of SRUs22:15
zulsoren: basically there was a kick off meeting last night/this morning about 8.04.122:15
sorenzul: Eh? Where? How? When? Who?22:15
zulsoren: it was in the platform team meeting check the logs for #ubuntu-meeting22:15
mathiazzul: what was the outcome of the meeting ?22:16
zulmathiaz: basically slangasek is leading the effort and there will be more meetings22:16
sorenOk, cool. I'll check the logs and see.22:16
mathiazzul: ok. If enconter bugs that may be worth an SRU, should ping you ?22:17
sorenzul: "this morning" is how many hours ago?22:17
nxvlzul: those meeting are community or canonical ones/22:17
mathiazzul: so that you can have a look at it and decide if it's worth ?22:17
kirklandsoren: 0600 UTC22:17
* soren shakes his fist at timezones22:17
zulmathiaz: correct22:17
mathiaznxvl: it was the platform meeting22:17
zulnxvl: community22:17
nxvlmathiaz: as in i can attend to it?22:17
nxvland where are this meetings announced?22:18
mathiaznxvl: of course you can - the meeting was at 6:00 UTC -> translate that to your timezone :D22:18
nxvlmathiaz: here?22:18
mathiaznxvl: yes - all the meetings are held in #ubuntu-meeting22:18
nxvland where are they announced? on fridge?22:19
owhmathiaz: That meeting isn't showing on http://fridge.ubuntu.com/event22:19
mathiazthe fridge calendar isn't working properly now22:19
owhHmm, was there any particular event that caused that and the bot to be borked for a while?22:20
sorenThe owner left.22:20
* owh guesses that there is more behind that simple statement.22:21
mathiazAllright - that was all for the release fallout22:21
mathiazLet's move on22:21
mathiaz[TOPIC] bug announcement in #ubuntu-server22:22
mathiazsoren added a bot to the #ubuntu-server22:22
mathiazand now NEW bugs are announced in the channel22:22
owhAll bugs?22:22
sorenJust server bugs.22:22
mathiazowh: only the ones relevant to the server-team22:22
mathiazI questionned whether it was usefull as it seems to generate clutter in the channel22:23
soren(defined as the ones that get announced on ubuntu-server-bugs@l.u.c)22:23
mathiazand I rely on email to get notified about new bugs22:23
mathiazsoren: and nealmcb thought it's a good idea22:23
mathiazwhat are others' opinion on that ?22:24
owhmathiaz: My comment would be that if a bug comes past while you're online, you can have a squiz at it.22:24
sorenYeah. It's hugely helpful for my workflow. I use e-mail when I want to follow up or see history, but an almost real time notification about a new bug is *really* helpful for me.22:24
jdstrandI saw two bugs that I was able to tend to and close as a result22:24
=== narcan_ is now known as narcan
sommerI'm all for giving it a try, unless the channel becomes too cluttered22:24
owhmathiaz: You can set your client to ignore it :)22:25
mathiazsommer: agreed - let's give it a try22:26
mathiazand see how things evolve22:26
owhDoes your bot come with all the goodies of old soren?22:27
sorenI'm not sure how to respond to that :)22:27
* ajmitch wonders what goodies 'old soren' brings anyway22:28
mathiazthere are currently two bots in the channel22:28
owhsoren: There was supposed to be a comma before your name :)22:28
jdstrandcan we leave soren's 'goodies' out of this?22:28
sorenYes, can we? PLease? :)22:29
nxvlsoren: have you test that your bot doesn't make double announce, then one from the bot and an eco from ubotu?22:29
sommerhehee goodies!22:29
sorennxvl: I've asked the owner of ubotto to disable the bugSnarfer magic.22:29
sorennxvl: That should get rid of the echo.22:29
mathiazsoren: great!22:30
* nxvl can't live without ubotu :(22:30
mathiazlet's move on.22:30
mathiaz[TOPIC] UDS topics22:30
sorennxvl: Oh, but my new bot does the same.22:30
nealmcbwho owns ubottu?22:30
mathiazSo UDS is in a couple of weeks from now22:30
sorenLet's talk in #u-server afterwards.22:30
mathiazso now is the time to get your ideas in blueprints and register them in LP22:30
mathiazso that we can schedule sessions at UDS about these22:31
nxvlsoren: :D22:31
nxvlmathiaz: 2 to be exactly22:31
nxvlmathiaz: i have an idea22:31
nxvlmathiaz: i talked to you some time ago22:31
nxvlbut i whing it was to early22:32
mathiaznxvl: right - there will be FOSSCAMP friday/saturday22:32
mathiazand then UDS the following week22:32
nxvli want to include on ubuntu a new tool22:32
mathiaznxvl: register a blueprint and/or start a wiki page on w.u.c22:32
nxvlmathiaz: i have them22:32
nxvlmathiaz: i just need to work on them a little more and discuss it22:32
mathiaznxvl: link ?22:33
* nxvl searches22:33
nxvlfound it22:34
nxvlit's like soren's blueprint for home servers (https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+spec/ubuntu-easy-business-server)22:34
nxvlbut more open i think22:35
mathiaznxvl: right - it's a general concept that is floating around22:35
nxvlwhat i propose?22:36
nxvli have the idea to develop a framework22:36
nxvlwhich will cary service-modules22:36
mathiaznxvl: ebox is already a framework - couldn't it be used to implement what you wanna do ?22:36
nxvlso everyone can develop modules and have the service working on this tool22:36
nxvlmathiaz: yes, that was my next point22:37
nxvlas we have already ebox22:37
nxvli was thinking to limit my propose to developing a curses interface for ebox22:37
nxvlwhat i don't really want to, is to install a web server on my firewall or file server22:38
mathiaznxvl: why not - you'd have to look into the ebox framework and see if it can be used to achieve that22:38
nxvlbut to have a tools where in which i can administrate and tune my services22:38
nealmcbnxvl: have you tried running ebox via links or w3m?22:38
RoAkSoAxyou could also add support for LVS based clusters so that you just configure it in one server and replicate the configuration on other nodes of the cluster22:38
nxvlmathiaz: yes, that's why i'm proposing22:38
RoAkSoAxwithout having a tool to replicate like csync222:38
nealmcbnxvl: then you wouldn't have to expose the port to the outside world22:39
nxvlRoAkSoAx: if it goes as i want to, everyone will be able to develop it separately and have it working for my propose or ebox without pain22:39
nxvlnealmcb: exactly22:39
nealmcbyou'd just bind the apache port to localhost22:39
nxvlnealmcb: or use resources on a web server, which i can use on my $SERVICE22:40
sommerseems like one of the highest rated ideas on the brainstorm was for gui admin tools... just fyi22:40
mathiazsommer: yes22:40
nxvlsommer: yep22:40
nxvlsommer: so we can just then develop UI22:40
mathiazsommer: I went through brainstorm and extracted general tpocs22:40
mathiazsommer: *topics*22:40
nxvlso i was thinking on find a way to develop different UI's for ebox and develop them22:41
mathiazsommer: they should be taken into account when scheduling session at UDS22:41
mathiaznxvl: ok - I think we're getting into the implementation details22:41
mathiazlet's defear that to UDS22:41
sommermathiaz: sure, I'm really interested in the ldap, kerberos, domain one :)22:41
nealmcbhow many people have tried ebox out?  will it be hard to get into main?22:42
nxvlbut i wanted to hear you opinion on this idea22:42
mathiaznxvl: write down your suggestion in the wiki page22:42
sommermathiaz: should there be a blueprint for documentation with regards to UDS?22:42
RoAkSoAxas an addon to nxvl, cluster management could be included out of the box!22:42
mathiazsommer: yes - there should be a session about network authentication and identity management22:42
nealmcbsommer: sounds very helpful to me22:42
mathiazsommer: I've asked for a documentation session22:43
sommermathiaz: awesome, thanks22:43
kirklandmathiaz: sommer: I'm doing a blueprint on the Ubuntu Documentation Search, as well as an Ubuntu Manpages Website one22:43
mathiazsommer: you should register a blueprint so that we can track it and start down to write ideas22:43
mathiazsommer: such kirkland ^^22:43
kirklandmathiaz: https://blueprints.edge.launchpad.net/ubuntu-doc/+spec/ubuntu-documentation-search22:44
sommershould I just add to kirkland's or create a new one?22:44
kirklandsommer: i'd say create your own, and we'll link them together22:44
kirklandi'm going to create a separate one for the Manpages business22:44
sommerkirkland: cool, sounds good22:44
mathiazsounds good to me22:45
mathiazThat's all I have22:45
mathiaz[TOPIC] Any other business22:45
mathiazsomeone want to add something ?22:45
nealmcbhow about delivering ibex as a virtual image?  would that be useful?22:45
nxvlnealmcb: how as a virtual image? as in qemu image?22:46
mathiaznealmcb: you mean providing a qemu image22:46
nxvlwhat for?22:47
nealmcbfaster and easier than running install on jeos22:47
nxvli don't even know what jeos is, so i will step aside on this topic22:48
mathiaznealmcb: could be interesting22:48
nealmcbI also heard folks wanting to deliver on usb sticks - not sure if that is ready-to-run or for the installer22:48
mathiaznealmcb: I'd like to see a real use case for -server22:48
mathiaznealmcb: I see it usefull on desktop to be able to do a test run22:48
nealmcbon amazon ec2 there are lots of folks packaging stuff up as images22:49
mathiaznealmcb: for -server, you'd base a production server on this ?22:49
mathiaznealmcb: I heard there is ubuntu-server on EC222:49
* mathiaz should look into EC222:49
nealmcbif my existing server runs kvm or whatever, and along comes ibex with cool stuff, it would be nice to just load and go into an existing vm22:50
mathiaznealmcb: right - so the use case would be to provide a kind of preview22:50
nealmcbI'm also talking about packaging _applications_ and test cases - like what dan talked about22:50
mathiaznealmcb: so that people can poke around22:50
nealmcbmathiaz: or a basis for building other stuff on22:51
mathiaznealmcb: right - that's a bigger plan22:51
nxvlnealmcb: but we will need to have an image for each service22:51
nxvlnealmcb: or you mean only base system?22:51
mathiaznealmcb: right - that would fall under the Virtual Appliance Builder toolkit or something like22:51
mathiaznealmcb: that22:51
mathiaznealmcb: I'm sure soren has crazy ideas in that area :D22:51
owhOn other topics, the server guide is *hard* to find.22:52
sorenI do indeed.22:52
nxvlsoren alway has crazy ideas22:52
mathiazowh: it's listed on the main page of help.u.c22:52
owhSigh, I missed that.22:53
nealmcband it still says 2006 copyright iirc22:53
mathiaznealmcb: yop22:53
sommerthat was a good year :)22:53
nealmcb"recycle that old stuff"22:53
nealmcbbut bits recycle well...22:53
owhnealmcb: But is that really true if the electrons change :)22:54
mathiazI'm sure sommer will fix that for intrepid22:54
nealmcbI hope the docs can be on the site when ibex ships this time around22:54
owhnealmcb: That would be novel :)22:54
mathiazAllright - time to wrap up22:54
mathiaz[TOPIC] #22:55
mathiazAgree on next meeting date and time.22:55
mathiazsame time, same place next week ?22:55
nealmcbwell I guess that was that....22:57
sommernealmcb: the copyright isn't actually in the serverguide source, so I'll figure out how the html is built22:58
owhStrangely unfulfilling :_)22:58
mathiazgreat - so see you all next week22:58
mathiazsame time, same place22:58
sommermathiaz: thanks, later on all22:58
owhThanks mathiaz!22:59

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